ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt on the Pittsburgh Synagogue Massacre

United States of America. As everyone must know by now, on Saturday morning, a gunman walked into a synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of Pittsburgh called the Tree of Life. The congregants had been celebrating not just the Sabbath, but also a brisk which is a Jewish baby naming ceremony. The gunmen shouted, all Jews must die in open fire,

killing eleven people and injuring six. Authorities have found that his social media was filled with anti Semitic hatred, and it appears he targeted this particular synagogue because they were participating eating in a Shabbat celebration of refugees in this country. This kept off a horrific week that also saw another murder motivated by hate, a white man who killed a black man and woman in a Kentucky grocery store, apparently

because of their race. And then, of course there were those pipe bombs mailed to many Democratic leaders people in the media, including the Democratic philanthropist George Soros and others. Brian and I, like so many of you listening to this podcast, were heartbroken by the events of this past weekend and the cold blooded, in human nature of this massacre.

So we wanted to find out more about anti Semitism in this country and what we might be able to do about it as citizens, So we asked Jonathan Greenblack to come in. He is the CEO and National director of the a D the Anti Defamation League, and its mission is to quote fight the defamation of all the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment for all. So we're really pleased that he was able to come in and help us try to understand or process the

events of Saturday morning. Jonathan Greenblatt, thank you so much for coming in than This has been an extraordinarily difficult few days, I'm sure for you and for so many people in this country, not only from the Jewish community, but from all Americans who are completely appalled by this act of violence. The deadliest shooting of Jews in this country in history. As we've said, so, I know you've talked to members of this congregation. I know you've been

speaking about this horrific event on various media outlets. So how are you processing all of this personally? Frankly, it's hard. I mean, this is I've only been on the job with little over three years, and this is easily the most painful days. I mean, I'll tell you you know, I remember working in the White House when the shooting happened in Newtown, and I remember it was still prepping

to take this job. I was teaching at Wharton when the shooting happened in Charleston, And so those things affect you deeply because you're a human being and their children and their worshippers. To see this happen, though, is so troublesome, because we have been saying loud and clear that something is going on. We have been literally ringing the bell because we've seen this rise in anti Semitic incidents. We've

seen this rise and hateful rhetoric. We've seen this rise and online cyber heat, and it is shocking and appalling and upsetting to think about a man walking into a synagogue on a Saturday morning and gunning down elderly people where they sit, and slaughtering two developmentally disabled men who are there to greet people when they walked into synagogue

and hand them prayer books. And to think that he in cold blood murdered a couple in their eighties who were married in that same room where they were butchered. The fact that a nine seven year old woman was gunned down, you know, in the pews where she sat praying. It's hard to explain to your children, you know, that which is unexplainable. So, Jonathan, as you mentioned, the trend

recently has not been good. The a d L found that the number of anti Semitic incidents in the US rose fifty seven percent last year, which is the largest single year increase on record. The number of established neo Nazi groups is up twice as many hate motivated murders were committed by white supremacists. What do you attribute all of this to what happened in and now eighteen that's different than the years before. So it's a good question, Brian. I think there are a few things to keep in mind.

I think the first thing is that uh, as you noted we've been tracking anti Semitic against it the United States for forty years. We've been measuring attitudes for more than fifty years, and anti Semitism, unfortunately has never gone away. It has been a persistent problem in this country. I think it's a it's almost like a permanent aspect of

the human condition. Now, the fact of the matter is, when we started monitoring attitudes in the sixties, it was upwards of thirty percent of Americans health classic anti semitic views. When we lasted the most recent survey sixteen, that number was down too. I think, so the number has dropped

by more than half. Now that being said, the anti Semitic instances were on a decline for almost fifteen years, a gradual, steady decline, and then in they went up thirty which was a lot, and it was waited toward the second half of the year, and then of course seen as you said, a fifty seven percent spiked, the single largest we've ever seen. So I think there are a few different factors at work. I think number one, clearly, the public conversation, which is aided and embedded by the

political environment, has changed so previously. As I just noted, there were people with anti Semitic views, but they did not feel emboldened. There were people who would consider extremists, but they did not feel energized. And there were people on the margins right or people with bad ideas who are on the margins, but they weren't able to move

into the mainstream. But the political conversation in this country is changed, and you now see a kind of hate filled rhetoric that spews out, and that creates space for white supremacists and other sorts of bigots to move right in. And it's it's undeniable, and we can talk about that leadership if you want, but I think the charged environment is part of it. I think the second factor is

there is broadly felt anxiety and uncertainty. And we know this right despite the economy, despite the performance of the stock market, despite the record low unemployment rates, despite the growing GDP rates. You hear this when you talk to people out in America. They are unsure will the next

generation earn as much as their parents. So this is all relevant because in an environment where the political system is and delivering answers and there's widespread uncertainty, scapegoating can thrive and there's room for those people with silver bullets like blame the Jews to get their message out there. And we've seen that pattern throughout history. It is not new, we've seen in that movie before. But what's so worrisome is right now, the conditions seemed ripe for it, and

the conditions seem right because of the third factor. So, in addition to the political environment, and addition't to I think the broad uncertainty, social media in these platforms have allowed those extremists to accelerate and amplify their reach in ways which previously were absolutely unimaginable. I mean, in Katie know this right, I mean, you've been part of the

media in this country. Fears you could never find those people like on a mainstream network, They could never get an audience, right from the editors at the papers to those at the networks, they would never allow such individuals with such hateful ideas to see the light of day today. Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, and let alone other platforms like four chan, gab, eight chan, they have allowed them to their hate to to grow with a velocity and at a volume which is unprecedented.

Let's talk about the first and the third things that you mentioned and will table the overall anxiety for another conversation. The first is leadership. Do you believe that some of the blame lay squarely at Pennsylvania Avenue. I mean, let's just go ahead and address the elephant in the room, so to speak. So there are a few things here. Number One, I absolutely positively, and anyone who would deny this is sort of I don't know how to lunch.

The President United States has the biggest microphone, he has a most significant platform. He's our commander in chief and the leader of the country. And we saw this during the campaign where his account would retweet the rhetoric of white supremacists and and and push out the kind of memes and images that were coming from some of the

worst elements of society. Whether he understood what those meant, whether he intended to do that hard to say, but undeniable that they started there and would spread, and then in office from not remembering the Holocaust and the Holocaust members say statement to the moment in Charlottesville when he equivocated on neo Nazis and suggest there were fine people among both groups of protesters, you want to call them

protesters to the events in Pittsburgh. You know, I'll tell you the A d L. We're not afraid to speak truth to power, and we have called this out again and again when Canada Trump or President Trump did it. And I think it's critical. It's crucial that it's not just about what you say in response to a tragedy, and he did hit some of the right notes he did. It's more important how you create a climate where intolerance and hatred has no room. And that's what's so deeply

worrying about this. You believe that his reaction to this was appropriate in terms of what he said. And how did you feel about his suggestion that perhaps there should be armed guards at synagogues? Yeah, I mean a few thoughts. I think Number one, he did hit some of the right notes. There's no question about it. He called that anti Semitism. We needed to hear that, the country needed to hear that. Like you didn't know where he would land, he landed in the right place with respect to armed

guards and whatnot. Look, I mean every Jewish institution in America, Katie, from synagogues to schools, to community centers to offices like those are the A d L. We all have security protocols. So my synagogue has an armed guard inside of it. This one didn't have armed guards. But just keep in mind that four armed, well trained police officers were shot

and wounded by this person. But the reality is I want to go to synagogue to think about praying, not to worry about carrying a pistol, Like that's not what worship in this country should be about. We've talked about President Trump, but it isn't just restricted to President Trump. Kevin McCarthy, who is going to be the leader of the Republicans in the House after this election, had a tweet up that said, we cannot allow Soros, Styre, and Bloomberg to buy this election by in all caps, get

out and vote Republican. November six picture of George Soros. You know, my immediate reaction is, Okay, Styre is half Jewish, But what are these three people have in common? The use of the word by Soros emerging, is this major boogeyman for Republicans. Has there been a concerted effort on the right to create a sort of a Jewish villain

that some crazy people have latched onto. Well, I think there absolutely has been a concerted effort, effort among right wing extremists for years to sort of spread this propaganda, these myths that there's Jewish control and that Jewish the rothchild, So the Soros or Jewish bankers are manipulating world events. Well, let's face it, that's nothing new, Jonathanly that that has

been out there for many, many years. I think what's frightening about this moment in times that some of that fearmongering conspiracy theory so somehow again moved out of the recesses of society into the center of the political and public conversation. So look, I don't know Kevin McCarthy, but I think and I don't know some of the other people who have said things. And and let me be

also clear with something. I don't agree with every donation that George Sorrows makes, but the continual, relentless references to his religion, and the continual suggestion that he's buying or manipulating, and the continual tying into some broader conspiracy, this is sickening. I think it's the extreme right wing, the white supremacish have taken this and somehow been able to insert it. So what the what we need now though, is this

is bigger than any one person. Whether it's whether it's Kevin McCarthy, or it's President Trump, or it's any other elected officials or by the way, political candidates or other public figures. Everyone has responsibility to stand up and stamp this out. And that that is what's different about this moment in time. Things are so polarized, things seem so hot, that people are unwilling to step forward and admit maybe I made a mistake, maybe this doesn't belong. And so

that's what I would like to see. I don't really care how you vote, I care what you value, right, I don't really care what your party is. I care how if you stand up to prejudice. And that's what we really need to see now, more than ever. Have you reached out to any of the people who have been employing language that you would deem racist, anti semitic, etcetera. So we we certainly did the a d and I've done that. I've done it publicly, I've done it privately.

Would you call Kevin McCarthy, Absolutely absolutely. I wouldn't talk about the nature of our conversations, but I've talked to a number of these individuals, and what do they say when you reach out and say hey, please restrain yourself. Some get it right away and pull back, and some, more so than ever, are in a state of denial. Would attributed to well, I'm not in it, somebity, I'm good on Israel, or I'm not an anti Semite. Some of my best friends are Jews. I hear those kinds

of comments as well. Um, But look, I think it's up to us at the a d L, the Shina Light to make sure that we're using everything in our power to expose these So people like Kevin McCarthy, who I'm sure is not an anti Semite, I'm certain of it, understand the implications of using that kind of rhetoric. It reminds me of what Andrew Gillum said in a recent debate about his opponent. I you know, I'm paraphrasing here, but I'm not saying you're a racist racist, think you're

a racist. So similarly, anti Semites think many of these people are anti Semitic. Yeah, I mean, let's be clear. President Trump has Jewish children and Jewish grandchildren. He is not an anti Semite. But the anti Semites, I think he is winking at them and nodding at them, and

that's what's so troubling. Well do you think so, Because when you use language like globalist and nationalist, when you fail to call out white supremacists, when your initial response to this incident is basically to blame the victims and say they needed more protection, it's not a big stretch to think, gosh, maybe he's actually sympathetic to these views. Well, look, I think the president is a paradox. I'll admit that. I this is a riddle that I don't totally understand.

I think by the fact that he works with Jews, he has Jews and his family. I mean, can you imagine, for the first time in the history of our country, while we had the worst tragedy affecting the Jewish people, for the first time, we have literally Jewish grandchildren running around the residence of the of the White House. I mean it's remarkable. Uh. And it's hard to reconcile these two entirely oppositional facts. So I don't think the presidents

in anti Semite. I think the problem is the anti Semites rejoice in some of the things that he says, or maybe more importantly, Brian, the things that he doesn't say. How can you say he's not an anti Semite? Yes, his his son in law is Jewish and his daughter converted, and he does have Jewish grandchildren. But does that inoculate you. Well, here's what I would say, Katie. I don't know what's in his heart. I really don't. Well, is it purely

political that he's trying to appeal to these people? I don't know it's in his heart, And I'm not a psychologist analyze in his head. All I know is the impact of what he's doing. And we see the increasing the anti Semitic incidents, and we see the emboldenment of extremists, and we see moments like this one where if you look at the rhetoric and this guy's gab kind of feed it was the same some of the same kind of terms that Brian just said about globalists, about caravans, sorrows,

controlled caravans. That suggests he's taking his cues from the political conversation, and that is just deeply disturbing. So how are you a hundred person and confident that he doesn't have these views, that the president doesn't share these anti Semitic views. Look, I don't, to be very frank, I spend my time not trying to gain psychoanalyze the president. I spend my time literally on the ground trying to fight anti Semitism and other forms of intolerance when they happen.

So I, as I've said before and that during the campaign, and as I've said during his presidency, we want the president to take specific measures to stop anti Semitism and other forms of intolerance. Right before this massacre at the synagogue, a number of Democrats and members of the media received these pipe bombs from a man who apparently was inspired by the President and his rhetoric. Yeah. I mean, it's

a reminder that words have consequences. It's a reminder that rhetoric can unfortunately have um you know again, unforeseen outcomes. And so when the president or anyone else, by the way, labels the free press the enemy of the people, we shouldn't be surprised that some deranged people decided to take action. And again, there's always been deranged people. You have to

be deranged to do something like that. But the problem is that there's an environment now where they feel emboldened, where they feel like they have a license to operate, and that's dangerous. And we saw that play out last week, and they have a target list more or less. More or less, you're not simply focused on anti Semitism. You are focused on hate crimes in general at the a d L, and hate crimes against people of color have increased even more than those hate crimes against Jews. Correct.

I don't know all the specific numbers, you know, as in versus African Americans or Latinos or l g t Q or other forms of immigrants or Muslims. I don't have the numbers at my top of my head, but I will tell you this, hate crimes are up, intolerance is up. So we've always believed at the a d L that it's not just about standing up for us,

it's also about standing up for others. We've been my predecessors March with Dr King, fought for marriage equality, stood up for gender against gender violence, and will continue to do it today. Let's move on and talk about the cyber aspect of this, particularly a site called gab described as extremist friendly something the perpetrator of this crime was apparently on. You know how many sites are they're like this out there, Jonathan, and what can be done to

monitor them or shut them down. I know gabst has now been shut down, has been knocked off, and I heard from the general counsel of go Daddy this morning who told me they were taking it offline. You know, they host the domain. So to try to understand this world of social media, there's sort of three tiers. There's the public web, there's the private web, and then there's the dark web. So the public web is like YouTube

or Facebook or Google or Twitter. The things you can see that anyone can see the private web are the password protected zones like on Reddit or on four chance or eight chance or these other services that I'm guessing Katie has been a lot of time, but they're very popular and you need to be you know, admitted in. And then the dark web, which is a part of the Internet you can't access, you know, just with your Chrome browser, but where a lot of nefarious and very

ugly activity happens. So gab and four chan and h in these kinds of services there on the private web, and there are a lot of them, and the real issue is that hundreds of thousands of people, upwards of millions of people use these services, and a lot of it isn't necessarily you know, the kind of trafficking in racist or extreme mr anti Semitic content, but there's enough of it that is that is incredibly frightening. And I

see this. You know, at the A d L we opened a Center for Technology and Society in Silicon Valley last year because we know that the front line and fighting hate it's on Facebook. We know in order to tackle the kind of slander and stereotypes that I'm referring to, we need to be engaged with Twitter and YouTube and all these different platforms. Twitter says that it has a policy where if you spew hateful rhetoric or prejudice rhetoric,

you're gonna get kicked off the platform. And yet we've seen people like Louis Ferricon and others who put up anti Semitic tweets and they're still there, the at least as of this recording, they're still there, and those people are allowed to continue to spread hate. What can be done to address the public web these very large, powerful, rich platforms that I don't know whether they allow it or they just can't stop all of the hate that's you know that's going on. Well, look, I think it's

it's a good question. Ryan and I think there's no question that the large companies have a huge role to play here. I think part of it requires innovation and part of it requires sort of intervention. So in the innovation side, we need the companies to realize improving their products and making their platforms safer for all users is not just because of the you know, requests of stakeholder groups like the A d L. It's in the interest of their shareholders, right Their stock price will suffer and

usage will go down if users don't feel safe. So this is what I said, and I have an op ed in the New York Times today about this. The best way to show these companies that they need to do something about it is to deactivate your account, click off instead of clicking through. Would you have a campaign trying to urge people to do that, because people are just aren't going to do it, Jonathan, because oh this

is a good idea. I mean, you have to have a really an organized campaign the way that we do it, as we call attention. And so you know, we've exposed anti semitic abuse on Twitter, specifically against you know, journalists, and when we did that in the summer of sixteen, I remember we did a podcast about this, we talked about it. It affected their share price. So why did it? Because because suddenly companies who are looking at them in

terms as an m and a possibility. I thought, wait a second, there's a lot of liability on the platform. Maybe the platform is off brand, maybe won't be again consistent with the shareholder value interests? Is that the only way to communicate to these companies and financially. As a former executive and I was a senior executive at Starbucks and I've worked as an executive to publicly traded companies,

I gotta tell you that absolutely makes a difference. On the other hand, I would also say that the employees and the users have a lot to say, and when companies operate outside of core values of things like decency and respect and tolerance, you're seeing it more and more. So petitions and campaigns can be useful and the companies need to realize that we want to collaborate with them. And I do want to say although Brian, as you were saying, Twitter has a lot of work to do,

YouTube is a lot of work to do. Facebook as a lot of work to do. They have made progress. We have seen improvements in their product. They are better today than they were just a few years ago. Bad actors do get thrown off far more frequently today than they do a few years ago. Look at Alex Jones. So there are encouraging signs, but they need to do more. On Tuesday, the president is going to be traveling to Pittsburgh.

According to Sarah Huckabee Sanders, what kind of reception will he get and what advice would you give him as he goes into that community. Well, look, it's up to the local Jewish community and the family is there to decide how. I'm how they're going to respond to him. I don't really know. I think the emotions are very raw right now. Basically when I've talked to this community is struggling. I think the the interfaith vigil last night was really important. But I gotta tell you, I mean

they're suffering right now. So I don't know how they will react. He is the president, and so I think my advice to him would be two with clarity and with consistency, and in a way that is authentic to denounce not just anti Semitism, but all forms of sort of racism and white supremacy. I think he needs to

speak in a clear voice. And I think, you know what, tomorrow, this visit will be meaningful, not not only because he's going to a place that suffered such tragedy, but if it demonstrates a pivot for the president and he can shift from not just responding to tragedy but demonstrating a commitment to respect going forward. In fact, there's a letter that was written to the President by an organization called

Ben the Ark. Why don't you help our listener understand what this organization is and then I'll actually read a couple of lines from it. So beni Arc is a Jewish um group focused on issues of social justice. They're domestically oriented. I knows in the leadership. They're very nice, good well meaning people, and they're focused on, you know, issues like immigration reform and racism and institutional racism. And I think they're very concerned about this. Well, this letter reads.

For the past three years, your words and your policies have been bold in a growing white nationalist movement. You yourself called the murderer evil, but yesterday's violence is the direct culmination of your influence. President Trump, you are not welcome in Pittsburgh until you fully denounced white nationalism. President Trump, You're not welcome in Pittsburgh until you stop targeting and endangering all minorities. President Trump, You're not welcome in Pittsburgh

until you seize your assault on immigrants and refugees. President Trump, You're not welcome in Pittsburgh until you commit yourself to compassionate, democratic policies that recognize the dignity of all of us. Well, look, I don't know. I mean, I think the Jewish community of Pittsburgh, the Congregation of Trial Life, needs to decide whether he's welcome, And I don't think it's for Bemi Ark to decide that if the president wants to go.

I think what can make them visit meaningful is if he actually, truly, sincerely change his course and strikes a new tone and uses the kind of language that you would expect, because look, it's one thing to be political, it's another thing to be presidential, and it's one thing to you know, he may have the formal title of leader, but he needs to accept the moral responsibility of leadership. So if he gets it right, it could be great.

But yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, Brian, I was thinking about, you know, Presidential leadership is so important to healing when these horrific events happen, whether it's President Obama shedding a tear over those children at Sandy Hook or other presidents who have time and time again really provided the soothing bomb to a to a really hurting nation. Um. I hope that President Trump understands, as you said, Jonathan, his responsibility and the fact that his

words are exceedingly important. I think about President George W. Bush going to the Islamic Center in Lower Manhattan shortly after nine eleven and saying very clearly, at a fraud moment, we're not at war with the Islamic faith. You know, we're at war with terrorism, and we're not going to target you. I mean, I think of President Reagan after

the Challenger disaster. There's so many examples when this country needs a president to bring it together and turn down the temperature, and remains to be seen whether this president is capable of that. You know, so many people are

at a loss as to what they can do. We're talking about what the president can do, We're talking about deactivating our Twitter accounts, But can the average citizen do, Jonathan, Because I feel like the majority of Americans are really good people, of course, and yet they're feeling so helpless and hopeless and in some ways lost. A friend of

mine texted me, I no longer recognize my country. Yeah, I mean it's heartbreaking hear comments like that, like it's so crushing to think about people shot and synagogue in chabba. I think these are hard times because I don't think there's a silver bullet, you know. I don't think there's the one thing we can do. I think part of me says we have to hug our children tighter. I really feel like that, and part of me says we have to lock arms with others in need. And so everybody,

you know, shows up in different ways. But this is a moment when I think we have to really recognize the other. If you're a Christian, find that Jewish person. You know, if you're straight, find that gay person. If you're born here in this country, go find that immigranto refugee and strike up a conversation and hold their hand and create some kind of communion with them. You know, I'm the I'm the grandson of a Holocaust survivor, and I am the husband of a political refugee from Iran.

And I think my grandfather, and I think my in laws and my wife sometimes have a hard time reconciling where we are today with the country that they came to. But I do think America's greatest strength is her ability to renew itself. So I think we will, I hope, I pray we will get through this. And I suspect as the head of the a d L, you'll agree

with this, Jonathan. One thing that all of us can do, particularly those of us with a big platform or a lot of followers like Katie has or politicians, have call out anti semitic or racist rhetoric as soon as you see it, as loudly as you possibly can. Brian, I

entirely agree with that. But there's no doubt in my mind that all of us, you know, UM, not just people in positions of authority, although they have a certain weight, but every single one of us has the ability to interrupt intolerance when it happens, whether it happens at the water cooler or over the dinner table, or on the playing field or anywhere else for that matter, or in your social media feed, like none of us should tolerate intolerance, and when we roll our eyes and when we simply

dismiss it, that's when it takes hold and spreads. So from the President to every one of us. We have, we have and we should try to stop hey when it happens. Jonathan Greenblad, I'm so happy you came by today. Thank you so much, as always for having We'd like to thank Jonathan Greenblatt for joining us on such short notice to talk about this tragedy. The team that produces this podcast and did a great job this week is producer Emma Morgan Stern, associate producer Nora Richie, and audio

engineer Jared O'Connell. Thank you to my assistant Beth Demas, my social media producer Julia Lewis, Mark Phillips who wrote our theme music, and of course you can find me on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at Katie Curic. I'm spending a lot of time on Instagram talking about this tragedy and presenting biographies of the people who lost their lives.

And you can reach out to Bryant on Twitter. His handle is Goldsmith B. We'll be back on Thursday for a regularly scheduled episode with a look at the upcoming midterm elections. Thanks so much, for listening. Let's see you next time.