55.5 Ava DuVernay: Groundbreaker

with filmmaking powerhouse Ava d Verney. So we originally spoke with Ava last summer while she was editing A Wrinkling Time, which just hit theaters this month. So for those of you who might have missed it the first time around, or who wanted an excuse to revisit Ava's brilliance and eloquence, this one is for you. Hi Brian, Hi Katie. Well, I'm very excited about our podcast today. It's a conversation with Ava Daverney, who has become so accomplished she's everywhere

these days. I first met her at the Sundance Film Festival a couple of years ago, and she really wasn't a household name back then, but I think today she's become one. Of course, she's done such critically acclaimed documentaries, like she has a show called Queen Sugar, which has also gotten a lot of attention, and of course Selma, right, Brian, I mean, that was an amazing film. If you care about the civil rights movement, or Lyndon Johnson or how the Voting Rights Act was passed, you have to see

this movie. It became actually very controversial at the time, and one of the big controversies around it was why Ava was not nominated for Best Director, which we get into a little bit in this conversation, and of course that omission really helped fuel the Oscars So White campaign,

which really changed the face literally of the Academy. Anyway, we had the privilege of talking to Eva at Disney Studios where she was in the middle of a deadline for her upcoming movie, A Wrinkle in Time, and we covered a lot of ground from her relationship with her frequent collaborator, somebody named um Oprah I think is her name. You may have heard of her. I think that's how you pronounce the official Ava diverne Ay Barbie, and how she went from doing pr and publicity to making movies,

a pretty dramatic career transition. And folks, by the way, you know the drill. We left our studio, we ventured out into the actual world for this recording, and so the audio isn't perfect because we did it in Ava's office, So we hope you'll forgive us for that. And in Ava's office where she had very good snacks, we might add, including those little breadsticks with nutella. She told me to help myself. So what can I say? People, I did? You taught me the true meaning of asking forgiveness, not

permission anyway. So here's our conversation with the one and only Ava Diverney. I kept thinking about the Alicia Key song This girl is on by Oh my God. Woman. First of all, thank you for doing our podcast. You're doing a million things, so you're my girl. People don't know we hang out when we're Yeah, exactly, we've partied together. That's your part together. Yeah, well, I'm We first met at Sundance and we sat across the table from her. I think she probably thought I was super weird at

the time. Ava, she was obviously doing great things, but it was really before a huge development in Ava's career causation. We don't know very little to do with it. But I was fascinated then by Ava's backstory, which I want to get to in a moment, but first we have to say mossel mozzle, Ava, because you have been nominated for lots o Emmy right for thirteen, eight Emmys, eight Emmys for thirteenth. And you know, the great thing about it is when it happens, it doesn't feel like you

thought it would. It feels lovely, but like a cherry on top because the main thing was making the piece and people loving it and responding to it. So when the nominations came in, I was like, oh wow, this is lovely. I was more excited for my editor and for my my sound mixer who all got nominated and uh.

And so it just helps me stay focused because I just like telling the stories and I like the people's reaction because everyone walks up to me about their teeth, you know, people walk up, they want to talk about it. And so it's been a gift that keeps on giving. It's it's still though, must be a nice piece of validation for you, right, nice, I just didn't doesn't hit

the same as I always dreamed it would. You know, you think you're you're making the speech in the mirror and you it's your brush, is the is the is the trophy, you know what I mean, And you think it's gonna feel a certain way. It's really nice, but isn't everything that I thought it would be. But it did feel I think, uh, sort of like a disk. When you weren't nominated for Selma for a lot of other people, well, I never thought I would be nominated.

I'm on record a long time before the nomination saying it wouldn't want because I don't know anyone in my in my in my branch. It's very much about you know, I have no connect Cider's Club, Yeah, and I don't. I don't know them and they don't know me. And so that's a big part of what that is. It's just that connection with your peers, and I didn't have it at that. Hollywood is just like high school. And another little bit as a movie goer, I really resented

it even if you didn't. Even if it didn't but but no, no, really, if I didn't even know you and the movie Selma and the fact that um, I thought it was a fantastic movie, and I think it should have been recognized. But I think this was sort of on the cusp of people understanding how undiverse the Oscar. It was. The year before this was the that was the year that said all that conversation. It helped to

spur the Oscar. And I think that that was valid that came from the fans and uh and it was a valid conversation that needed to happen, not just for people of color, but for women, which has become a big, big conversation now, so they people think it differently about it, and so I'm happy that that campaign was effective. Do you think it drove real change? It did? I mean

it was. It was definitely had fundamental changes within the Academy in terms of the ways in which new members are brought in, in terms of the ways in which the conversations that are had around the table. Um. I know because I've been sitting in them and I can see how they've changed since I joined the Academy in

two thousand twelve to now radically different. Isn't it amazing how when people are made aware of an issue, how rapidly in some cases change can happen so fast it really can what do you think it were the keys to to changing sort of the color if you will, at the academy and and and the choices they were making. I mean, I think it was the uproar and the outrage and the real urgency that people were feeling at the time about this is unacceptable. And it's not as

if the conversation hadn't happened before. But there was something that alchemy about, you know what, whatever was going on the culture around that time. Black lives matter, Absolutely there was there was at the forefront. There was a conversation, whether it be people of color or women, that this was no longer something that could be set aside. But when you're talking about change, you know, we were talking about another conversation we had about um about your your

dock and your dock work. How quickly I even look at the trans community, how quickly. I mean, I can think of three years ago, no one even knew how to articulate or what it meant or how or had a respect for it being a uh, you know, an issue that we all had to embrace or a reality that we had to embrace or we should embrace. And now it feels very you could have a conversation with people, and they may not know everything that they should know,

but there's at least a base of recognition. And that's been I mean, what would you say, I'd say to three years and being conservative, I think you're right, and I think that Caitlyn Jenner did a lot to bring it out into the forefront and then that provided I think a foundation for a conversation to talk about it and then actually paid the way for a documentary like that couldn't have happened, I think in a weird way without kids, when kind of making more people understand that

this was an actual phenomenon and that this was something that was affecting a lot of people that was being kept in the closet. That's a that's a reality for a lot of people. And before we go further down this road, I want to talk a little bit about who you are and where you come from. People you don't know because you grew up a few miles but also a world away from here near Compton, and you've

talked a lot about this. How how did your childhood and background kind of shape the director that you are today. Had a beautiful childhood, very you know, lovely community, very

tight knit, a gorgeous, loving family. UM. But my childhood was set in a community that was, you know, uh, kind of besieged by l A p D at that time, that really used excessive force and instances when it wasn't necessary, and instances of everyday life the constant surveyor the police presence living under that made it so that I'm hyper aware of issues of criminal justice and and and the ways in which law enforcement of really um can kind

of rule with an iron hand in some places. And so that that's made its way in my work, from the early narrative films to The Docks Now to the TV show. Uh, It's just something that's a part of my DNA, and so that I just want to continue to talk about. Did you have any firsthand experiences they've growing up where you know an image has stuck with you or an experience has stuck with you. I just read a Brian Stevenson Peace and the New York Review

of Books about he was Did You So Great? And I guess that same story about being a young lawyer in Atlanta and a racially mixed neighborhood was also in his book Just Mercy. You know you and I both have a complete crush on Bryani really equal Equal Justice Initiative, and my daughter's working for the Southern Poverty Law Center exactly exactly we have to connect that. But anyway, I mean that experience he described Brian real quickly. He was coming home. He was listening to a radio show about

sliding the family stone. You could just put yourself. He was staying in the cars sometimes you do when you're you're mesmerized by something on the radio. And Atlanta police officer came. Apparently someone had made a call. He was, as I said, in a racially mixed neighborhood, basically almost you know, killed him. And the fear that he had as this Harvard educated lawyer coming back from his firm, and I don't know that the scene, he said, was so profoundly moving to me, and it really made you

realize in sharp relief what it was like. What about you, Eva, Was there anything for you that made you think this is completely screwed up? Many many little things throughout my my growing up, but there was one in particular around my father recently onto another realm recently departed, and he was in his our house watering the lawn in the backyard of his own home and police came through the side gate and wrestled him to the ground in his

own backyard. We had to rush out of the house UM with no warning, that didn't say anything, no guns drawn on us. My mother and and it was me. My sisters weren't there. I don't know, maybe maybe eleven or twelve, something like bad to see my father such a proud, elegant man on the ground, UM with police on top of him, guns pointed at us, not knowing who we were. And basically in the end they said he matched the description of someone who was running through

the neighborhood. UM, despite the fact that he was saying, this is my home. I'm the homeowner in his own backyard. Not safe. So those kinds of like I said, excessive police force and a disregard for the humanity of people, uh, something that I grew up with. It was just a part of daily life. When you spoke very eloquently about this in the Atlantic, you said you'd see a cop growing up and you didn't think safety like your counterpart

who didn't grow up in Compton. You'd think, oh boy, what are they coming for and who are they coming for yeah, exactly. So it's be because of instances like that, So you know, I find it, it makes its way in my work, and at one point I would try to push that away. And so I need to really engage with Hollywood in the ways that our standard Hollywood.

But I've just tried to embrace the fact that these are the things I'm interested in, and it's okay to talk about those things, and whether it's a documentary or whether it's like a series like Queen Sugar, you know, to be able to find the spaces where I can say the things I want to say about these issues is okay to do. I read Eva, I learned something new about you every day, and I read that you actually helped cover the o J trial for ye did? How did I not know that? And you became disillusioned

with journalism. Yeah, I really really wanted to do what you do, Okay. I really wanted to be a broadcast journalist. I don't know what that was in me for all through high school and uh and going through college, that was what I wanted to do. And so anyway, I

got this prestigious internship with the CBS Evening News. This isn't the Dan and rather Connie chung Era the small window when it was both of them right, almost as prestigious as the later Katie Kurrik almost, but it was a slim window when there was the two of them. And that landed at some point around the trial. Anyway, the trial was just starting. I got to sign my juror packet. I was assigned to one specific juror, and

I was like, this is it. It's a few short months and I'll be on the air anchoring like this is it's all happening for me? And um, And basically I was kind of capped out in front of a juror's house and um and you know, kind of invited to kind of look through her I don't know, trash things, mail get a sense of when she came home, who was coming, And I just felt like that's not what

I went to. It was around the time O J. Tim I think things the traditional news had to become a tad more tabloid e to compete with the new world. I think I felt that, and so things were changing and I didn't I didn't take to it. Well, I wasn't good at it, and I got no trash, no dirt, Noh, yeah, Well that was a bad assignment and probably not a fair representation of the kind of work might have been able to do. I wouldn't stuck with it, you know.

I was just I couldn't see through when you idealize something, you know. Even that that brings me back to though, the o J trial, and I just want to kind of take a left turn for a moment, because I was in the hallway when that verdict was announced, and I was actually standing near o J's kids. And I'm not sure if either of you remember. Of course you remember the external outside reaction, but the black and white reaction was dramatically but I mean, I know you remember that.

But in that hallway was a microcosm of sorts of this racial divide in this country. And I'm curious what you thought about the reaction by the African American community, because I have to say I was. I was stunned. Um. You know, I knew Johnny Cochrane very well and the

whole defense team. I actually loved Johnny Cochrane, and and yet it was pretty clear that o J had committed this crime, and the jubilation when he was not convicted, when he was acquitted, and the image of this very different reaction from black and white America is still somewhat hard for me, less hard for me to understand given everything that I've explored and read and people I've talked to,

But help me understand it a little more. I mean, I think it was and we've had, you know, both documentary and narrative pieces that have since explored that whole case. I mean, it was siminar case and American criminal justice, but also speak so clearly to know the racial divide, and I think, you know, just being around at that time I was in college, the feeling was know so often the criminal justice system is unjust towards the black man, right,

It's so skewed, it's so destructive. I mean, day in and day out, years and years of never winning, of never that the win on such a high in such a high profile way, even though intellectually you know this is not a good guy. But the optics and the triumph of finally being on the on the winning side, I think was such a powerful um It was such a powerful feeling. Did you feel that way? I don't

remember how I felt at the time about it. I don't know if it was following that close I was in college and having a good time, but I do remember a sense of kind of drama and excitement and energy during the the high speed chase. I was in

l A. I saw it go by. I mean, at some point it became um, you know when when I was young and then watching it, it became it was entertainment in a way, you know, and not regarding it as you know, a life or death matter, and and people who lost their lives over this, you know, it became spectacle. It was a cultural spectacle. I think that's

how people, you know, you know African Americans. Uh, some people were able to divorce themselves from the actual lives lost and say, wow, we won when really it wasn't quite the wind that that that it was embraced as at the time. So rather than pursue journalism, you decided to move toward the entertainment industry. So I just forget that that you wanted to do. For all, they're not going to be going through. But you chose a kind

of unconventional path for what you're doing now. You started your own marketing and publicity agency, and you did that for many years, even after you had started making films. How did that training and background inform your filmmaking? I loved films, so what that did is just allowed me to immerse myself in film even more. Uh So, I started out after the news stint um, working for studios and publicity firms that specialized in films. How do you as a film go or when you think about how

do you know that a film is coming out? You know how whatever whether it's the commercial, it's the red carpet, it's the entertainment to nice piece, it's the review in the newspaper, all the ways that you know that a film is coming out, that's what the public system the

marketers to do. So that's what I did, and I loved it because it gave me close proximity to filmmakers and I love sets and movies and so just working for thirteen years and film that closely gave me a set of tools that really made up for not going to film school. Because I didn't go to film school, but I was working as a publicist on film sets and traveling with filmmakers, and so when I decided to make my own films, I had some basse uh to

go from. Even though I hadn't gone to a traditional school, and so all that marketing experience must have come in incredibly handy because so much of filmmaking today obviously is the artistry and what you're doing to to produce this this piece of work, but also to make sure it's seen and heard and that people are aware of it. I mean, I'm sure that's been Have you continue to get where your marketing has in some saying, it's really odd. I don't think about marketing when I'm casting. I don't

think about it when I'm making the thing. Uh, And I think, knowing so much about marketing publicity, I know that you can market and publicize anything. So I just let myself be free with what I'm doing when the time comes to market and publicize. I can have different kinds of conversations with studios and networks than a lot of my filmmaking partners do our colleagues do, because I

know what they're talking about in a in a deep way. Um, But I really don't think about I don't think when i'm casting, oh this person will be good on a poster, or oh this person. I know that I can publicize this piece of paper sitting on the desk. I can do that. I can make you want to read this piece of paper on the very useful even after the film is right right. So it allows me to be free in the creative because I don't feel constrained by having to do certain things in order to get publicity.

Didn't you weren't working in publicity and then you got hired to Actually that's what what movie was? That was that? So in earlier iteration you were actually I read did his homework and he tells me, really, but basically you startedst for someone. How crazy is that? Wait? How did that happen? And then he became the director? I know it was Lee Daniels was directing and I was not

directing yet. I was asked to come on and be the publicist for it because they wanted to have conversations with the King of State and they wanted someone to be in the middle of that and so liaison between the filmmaker and the family, and that's what I was hired to do by path A, the French financers. I still have the contract where I signed to be the publicist, but the film never went forward, so that fell apart. I did get paid though, and so years later, maybe

five years later. You know life, you know, life is mysterious. Crazy. Daniels made The Butler, and he said that he had sort of made his civil rights movie, so he didn't product. So yeah, he left the project and David or Yellow, wo had been cast by him and remained with the project. David Yellow was the actor who played Dr. King. I just happened to work with David Yellow on my little indie film. So David said, you know, this film doesn't have a director. You're a director. I want to work

with the kid. Can I put you together with the with path A, the French financiers. And I was like, yeah, I know them already. I'm the publicist for this movie. You want to kiss David on the mouth? I do, and I do often. Yes, yes, yes, he's a great friend. But yeah he Basically, when I think of like one sim in a moment, of one person who made a critical decision that helped me sit where I am today talking to you at Disney on you know, posting Wrinkling Time,

it was David connecting me to Sama. Well. It had a twenty million dollar budget and while I think obviously clearly David thought you were extraordinarily talented and had great potential. I mean that was a pretty big leap, wasn't it. Ava. I think, yeah, the film before was two hundred thousand to twenty million. But you know the bottom line is, so many of my male counterparts make that leap and no one blinks an eye. I mean it's a it's

a standard leap from Indy two million range. So I mean it's not unprecedented in any way, and it was quite easy. So without relitigating the kind of the controversy around how lb J was portrayed in that film, because I think that's been discussed at length, I do want to know your view on sort of how much of responsibility filmmakers have when they're depicting historical events to be as truthful as possible, or is there artistic license to tell the story in a way that the diverges a

little bit from the facts of history. Where where is that line drawn? To you? Yeah, I think it was interesting because during that time there was a bar that I was being held to, a standards that was being

held to that. You know, counterparts who are not African American are not held to you know, when I look at Oliver stone when I look at Catherine Bigelow, when I look at many many people who've taken a really Scott, I mean so many people that are dealing with issues around history or or or true events, UM, that are kind of not ricked over those coals. I think there are stones movies aren't true to history. But the idea that when you say the word story, you're inserting UM

opinion perspective in a certain point of view. I mean, we can all tell the story of sitting here in this room together right now, and we will all tell it in a different way. I'm seeing and feeling different things, and you may be sealing our feeling and that's your version of the story and your version of the story. Who's to say what's wrong and what's not? And I so I think gross distortions are one thing. I think

perspective is another. And in Selma, I took the perspective of an African American community and the ways in which lb lb J was regarded by us by a lot of black folk, and uh, and so that was deemed as wrong and kind of held up as wrong by the LBG LBJ Library. But again, all I was saying was it's a matter of perspective, and can't we invite more perspectives into a historical context. What did you make

of that whole controversy? But I've said that before. We'll have more with Ava Daverney from her office here on the Disney lot in beautiful downtown Burbank right after this. And now back to our conversation with Ava Daverney. Let's talk about what you're doing now, because we're here in in Burbank and lovely downtown Burbank and you are editing your brains out on this new movie or working on called A Wrinkling Time, which of course many of us

read as children. This is something that you're working on with Oprah Winfrey. She's one of the stars. She's one of the stars. And Crisp and you guys have been shooting in New Zealand, Is that right? Yeah? We shot Mndy and Reese and Oprah and Eye and Storm read the Star of the film, Young Star of the Film. I went to New Zealand. I never know you can have so much fun, you know, in another in another in a place that just it's very pristine. It's just nature.

It's untapped. Nature's where we were and I'm from the continent, from the city. I like city girls, Like what is one to do here? Everything? You know what I mean? What did you do? I just make a movie? Like I don't swim, like I don't. I don't like dogs and animals like I really, I like to be inside and in the city, like I am not. Like I've never not a hiker, never camped like none of that. Zealand loving it boots mad up to my ankles in the jungles in the forest, and they have a little

bit of everything. I thought. And I'm like forty four years old experiencing nature untouched for the first time. How we were everybody about three weeks? And I visited over that year before four times, and the scouting in the preparation. Oh my gosh, I want to go to New Zealand. Oh you'll love it. Will come for the premiere? Okay, yeah, when is it? Times in March next year. I definitely want to go when it's warm, because they're they're summer is our winter. So I was thinking about maybe trying

to do a bite trip to New Zealand. You love it, you love it, and you can finish it up with the premiere of. I don't have a problem. But how did you and Oprah become friends and colleague? It was around David Yellow. He's like my favorite god from six Degrees of obviously initially with Selma, No, initially before that, he had given her when they were working on the Butlers. He played her son. And he was in the small film for me that at one Sundance and he said, hey,

check out this film. I man. I said, I can't believe you're asking out for win For to watch her indie film that made for two dollars. But he did, and she did. She watched it, and she wrote me and said that she and she tweeted me. I thought I framed the tweet. I was that over Winfree tweeted me and but she tweeted that she liked the film and encouraged me able to see it. And from there as it continued on um, we started to all collaborate on Selma and next Queen Sugar and next Wrinkling Time.

And you told a very funny story about bringing flowers to Oprah's house. All right, Well, you know the first time I'm invited to her home was up for Mother's Day. I brought my grandmother. Uh, and she had a lovely Mother's Day brunch. And I went in and of course you're gonna bring flowers to someone's come to their homes. So I went, Katie. I spent the most I've ever spent on flowers. I went to the fanciest place in l A. How much did you spend on It was like,

it's like five the flowers. I mean, that's like, that's what's right. And so I went and I bought these flowers because it's Oprah. I really want to make a good impression. I wanted to let her know how much she means to me. Have these flowers. I go in and I give them to her, and she's lovely and gracious. She looks at them like she's never seen flowers. Oh oh, aren't they lovely? Thank you? And she takes the flowers

and she doesn't hand them off, she takes herself. She puts them in the sink, the whole thing, and out the window of the sink, I can see past the kitchen window a field of endless flowers. She's got a garden that looks like the botanical gardens of whatever. The best botanical gardens are with like gardeners in green green jackets, like tending to the tulips that was that there was

no garden. What is it that makes Oprah that you know what I mean, to not blink and eye to still make you feel special even though you brought flowers when she's got to fill the flower it's just the extra thing. She's one of those people they you say, you leave her feeling better about yourself, even in a quick encounter. It's lovely lady, and she's very normal. She's

a very normal, lovely woman. So I know we've got limited time, and I do want to ask you in the wake of thirteen about the prospects for criminal justice reform in this country, because that supposed to be the one thing that Democrats and Republicans could get together by a partisan moment exactly didn't happen last year. The prospects have gone down dramatically under President Trump. Where do you

see this issue going? You know, I don't. I don't have the answers to where it's going, especially when I think of the political layer and how dire things are right now. But I know what it's done in the community. Uh, It's created a unity and a real strength around the issues where you know, places that might once have been fractured around it are really coming together and holding hands.

It's a very intersectional effort in terms of you know, you can see Black Lives Matter activists connected with Native Americans in their plight. You can see Native Americans, uh, you know, focused on the Flint water crisis and starting to see the connections between people who are marginalized across you know, color, religion. I mean the ways in which all kinds of communities of color and marginalized people are

standing up for Muslim Americans. So there's something that's happening there that I think I have to be hopeful is and then and then just like minded you know, uh, you know, liberal allies who who aren't of color and who aren't women right saying we will stand with you and we we are part of this. I feel that, um, and I think that's only going to increase as the

kind of the opposition increases. Even the Koch Brothers are behind criminal justice reform, and they you know here they are have very disparate views from sort of the traditional progressive point of view, but uh, they feel strongly that something has got to be done about mass incarceration and criminal justice reform. But this woman, Agnes Gunn have you heard of uh? And what she did? She saw at the New York Film Festival premiere. She immediately called the

Ford Foundations and said what can I do? They said, oh, you got money, what do you want to do? And she decided to sell her her artwork UM and create a fund for a criminal justice Art for Justice a hundred and sixty million dollars UH that she's put aside from her art sales specifically earmarked for criminal justice reform. So people are, you know, from that to people that are planning community actions in their neighborhoods. There's a lot

going on. But clearly President Trump and Attorney General Sessions in particular have cut against that grain. And they believe in the old you know, policy of mandatory minimums and lock them up and and all the rest. Do you think that they're doing this because substantively they believe in those policies or do you think there are political motivations behind that? Oh? Political motivations. I think they're racist policies, misogynistic policies, policies that are at odds with the good

of humanity. So they're going a race card in your in your mind, I think that they are not that they're disingenuous in their you know, statements that they're they're looking to make America great. The question is what America are they trying to make great? It's a very thin slice, and it leaves behind and leaves out a whole bunch of people that look like me and so uh so. Yeah, you know, the easy sound bite is to say they're playing the race car. But that's not what I'm interested

in talking about. I'm interested in saying, you know, these folks are saying one thing and behaving another way, and there are a lot of people who have kind of blinders on as to the real destruction that's happening in terms of the fabric of what holds us all together. So do you think, I mean, what what can be dune?

What more? I mean? I think sometimes people see a movie like Thirteenth which I thought was so extraordinary, my daughter, I thought it was so important, and and they say, we've got to change this, but they also in some ways feel powerless, you know. So someone listening to this wanted to do something that would contribute to some kind of transformation for the criminal justice system or some kind of change. What would you tell them to do? Well?

I think you know, the reason why I didn't put any easy solutions or one number of website or anything at the end of thirteen or call to action or a call to action is because you know, it is an an individual quest. You know, who were you at this time and what did you do? You know, during these circumstances you were in the world at this time, you saw an injustice. What did you do? And that answer is going to be different for everyone. For Agnes

Kunn it was one thing. From Malkia Cyril, who works in Oakland and organizes folks on the ground there, it's a different thing. And so the question is a personal to intimate question because I think it's really kind of surface to donate or or or sign a petition. Our question with thirteen is look inside. What of this whole story really really hit your heart? And what can you do where you are? And some of it, ave, I think is just asking people to see the world different

and behave and treat and treat it right. And it comes to would be it could inform their day to day interactions and how they analyze a news story. Or how they look at something that's transpiring in their neighbor absolute, or how they teach their children. I wanted to ask you about Central Park five because you are now doing

scripted version of that story for Netflix. Something that I covered um I interviewed the victim of of of a rape and brutal beating in Central Park for which these kids were blamed and convicted and by President Trump, who took out a full page ad, as I recall at the time, saying that these people who were accused of the crime and later exonerated, tell me why how that came about, and why you're excited about this project. I'm on fire for this project. This is something that I

heard about when I was a teenager. Those guys at the same age as I am, and I was on the East Coast in Los Angeles. They were in New York and Harlem, uh and I remember hearing it and and tuning into it because they were my age. They look like me, they look like my friends. And I remember because the news kept talking about this word wilding, wilding, and I was like, what's wilding? What it was? I called my cousin who lives in New York. I was like,

what's wilding is that? Is that a slaying like New York slaying. They're like, nah, we don't know it is right, So even that term is so fascinating. Well, it was a made up term by the media that was that was based on a on a slang term called wilding out, which is something totally different. It's like I'm just gonna while out tonight have fun. And so it was just this whole distortion of black youth culture at the time that really just you know, came into my head and

just never let go that. When I saw Sarah Burns is great documentary Central Park five just ignited it even more. And when I got to kind of follow where these guys what they had gone through, it really, um it just took hold of my heart. So I started to correspond with one of them, Raymond Santana, on Twitter. It actually reached out to me on Twitter city like my stuff. I was like, oh my gosh, you wanted this Gentral

Park five. We started to correspond and I started to ask about their rights, and um, over two years, we've developed it and I'm gonna shoot it next year. Yeah, twill be out for the thirtieth anniversary. Of the crimea and Twitter seems to be playing a central role in your career because you're set also for Netflix to direct this movie starring Rihanna and Luke Pete and Yongo that started as a kind of internet dream on Twitter. But we have confirmed that that's not a done deal yet.

But the ladies are all talking about it and we'll see if we can. We can, uh, if it's something real, but it's fun. I mean, just the power of the people on Twitter. Can you just briefly tell us that story just just a Twitter idea, an idea that actually started on Tumbler and then Twitter and then kind of made its way around social media from a couple of different fans who saw this picture of Lupita and Rihanna at a fashion show and started to make up stories

about the picture, and it started to go viral. Some of these different ones went viral, and eventually studios started well online people said, oh, wouldn't be great if Evid directed, Sarey wrote it and these women were in a movie and uh, and then studio started calling and going to do it. We're all going to do but we're all

talking about it. That's crazy, isn't it? How these were these ideas bubble up you never now And finally I know you're you're itching to continue your editing process, and you're so kind to give us even this much time. But I have to ask you about the Ava Da Barney Barbie, right, how it was that that was a thing that just even now when I hear about it,

it just tickles me. Ah, that is a thing that even you know, when we were started the conversation talking about how the Emmy's feel and all that stuff, that feels like I thought an Emmy would feel that Barbarie, I mean, what a thing? How how can it be? I used to love barbies. That was my first storytelling. It's playing with barbies and making up those stories. And when I saw the time you probably didn't have many

barbies who look like I did not. I did not, I did not, And so I mean, what a thing. And she has her own director's chair and she's got like like and it's just that's the thing that really lifts my heart. And yeah, well you've got your own Barberie. You gotta all these Emmy nominations doing incredible work. I mean, do you have a second to say, take a breath, Eva and say, wow, this is happening for me and I feel so so happy. I do, and it's so cool that I get to talk to you this week.

Because I was just talking with Oprah, I said, this is a really special week for me because on Monday's Central Park five was announced. Um. On Tuesday, we had this big cover of Ebony magazine, which is a you know, landmark magazine in the black community, with the cast of Queen Sugar, a show that came out of my head in my heart, which we didn't even have a chance. That was Tuesday. On Wednesday, we released the first pictures of Wrinkle, the first pictures that anyone had seen of it.

And then today Thursday, I sit with you with the Emmy nominations and I can just say, wow, a week of beauty and happiness. I feel so happy. You know. Yes, I'm moving around, I'm going fast, but I am smelling the roses and they smell good. They smell beautiful. They should because everything is coming up roses for you. Thank you so much. This was so funny. We can't wait to see what you do next for next and next, Thanks Katie, appreciate, Thank you. Bye to the team who

helps make this show possible. Thank you, Thank you very much our producer Gianna Palmer, our production assistant Nora Richie, Ryan Connor for recording Burbank, Jared O'Connell for mixing this show, plus of course alis At Bresnik on social media and Emily Beana who holds down the Fort at Katie Kurk Media. Mark Phillips wrote, are fantastic theme music. Thank you Mark.

If you have questions, comments or concerns less you forget, you can email us at comments at currect podcast dot com or please leave us a voicemail at four four six three seven. We truly love hearing from our listeners. We'd love to hear what you like, what you don't like, and what we can do more on the show that might please you. And if you can't get enough of us, I'm at Katie Curic on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot correct on Snapchat. You can bind me on Facebook

as well. Brian is tweeting up a storm meanwhile over at goldsmith b on Twitter, and don't forget. We so appreciate your ratings and reviews over at Apple Podcasts and subscribe as well. Please catch you later, Dear listeners, Thanks for listening. Chow