UN-backed body confirms famine in Gaza City

Hello and welcome to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from the BBC World Service studios in central London. I'm Tim Franks. And we begin with the news that the UN-backed, internationally recognised group which looks at food insecurity has confirmed there is now famine in Gaza City. More than half a million people live in what are officially termed... catastrophic conditions and that the situation, already dire across the rest of the embattled enclave, is only likely to deteriorate.

Over the next 10 months, the projection is that 132,000 children under the age of five are at risk of death from acute malnutrition. The Israeli government has issued several very strongly worded rebuttals today. Every forecast this body, the IPC, has made regarding Gaza during the war has proven baseless and completely false, said the Foreign Ministry in a statement. This assessment too will be thrown in the despicable trash bin of political documents.

It's our main story this hour, and we'll begin with the UN's top humanitarian official, Tom Fletcher. This is what he had to say in Geneva as the IPC report was released four hours ago. Please read the IPC report. Cover to cover. Read it in sorrow and in anger. Not as words and numbers, but as names and lives. Be in no doubt that this is irrefutable testimony. It is a famine. The Gaza famine. It is a famine that we could have prevented.

if we had been allowed. Yet food stacks up at borders because of systematic obstruction by Israel. It is a famine within a few hundred meters of food. in a fertile land. It is a famine that hits the most vulnerable first, each with a name, each with a story. That strips people of dignity before it strips them of life. That forces a parent to choose which child to feed. That forces people to risk their lives.

to seek food. It is a famine that we repeatedly warned of, but that the international media has not been allowed in to cover, to bear witness. It is a famine in 2025, a 21st century famine, watched over by drones and the most advanced military technology in history. It is a famine openly promoted by some Israeli leaders as a weapon of war. It is a famine on all of our watch. Everyone owns this.

The Gaza famine is the world's famine. It is a famine that asks, but what did you do? A famine that will and must. haunt us all. It is a predictable and a preventable famine. A famine caused by cruelty, justified by revenge, enabled by... indifference and sustained by complicity. It is a famine that must spur the world to more urgent action, that must shame the world to do better.

It is a famine that therefore also asks, and what now will you do? The head of the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, Tom Fletcher.

Let's try to go into more detail about exactly what today's report is saying and how it has come to its conclusions. Jean-Martin Bauer is director of food security and nutrition analysis at the World Food Programme. What does it actually mean when the IPC... confirms a famine. It means that three different thresholds have been breached. These are thresholds in terms of food consumption, acute malnutrition and mortality.

We have thresholds for each of these and for food consumption it's at least 20 percent of households have extreme food deficits. For acute malnutrition, it's 30% of children are acutely malnourished if measured by weight for height. It's 15% if measured by NUAC, mid upper arm circumference. And the third criteria is mortality, and that's when mortality exceeds 2 per 10,000 people per day. What's happened in Gaza City in the month of July is that these thresholds were breached. And the IPC's...

estimate is that across the rest of Gaza, we could see conditions deteriorate. So although at the moment, it's half a million people who are covered by this attribution of famine-like conditions, that it could be more than a million people who could potentially fall into that category of famine within, what, within months? The report that was issued today has a projection through the end of September and what they say that might happen.

by the end of September as an increase in the people facing phase five food insecurity from 500,000 currently to 640,000 by the end of September, and that famine conditions could spread to two other governorates.

Daryl Bala and Khan Yunus. This isn't covered in this report, but is there a concern that what is planned militarily by Israel at the moment, which is the... evacuation of Gaza City, of a million people there, displacement of Gaza City, in order that they can seize control of the area, they say in their...

attempt to root out Hamas, that that displacement will lead to it being more difficult for people to access food. What I can tell you about Gaza City is that the numbers in terms of food consumption... malnutrition and mortality have gotten a lot worse. The malnutrition rates, acute malnutrition amongst children under five, have tripled between May and July. Can I put to you, Jean, some of the...

things that the Israeli government is saying in response specifically to this report. One of them, and this comes from the coordination of... government activities in the territories. That's the bit of the defence ministry that deals with aid getting into all Palestinian territories. This is their response to the IPC report.

which it calls false, it says that it relies on partial biased data and superficial information originating from Hamas, and that it chose to ignore the information provided by Israel. What's your assessment of their belief that this report is simply misleading? Tim I'd like to reassure you and your listeners that the IPC is the gold standard.

in terms of food security analysis internationally. Its governance is robust. The work done on Gaza was reviewed by an independent body of experts called the Famine Review Committee. They looked at the data in detail and they have determined Again, the Israeli authorities say the report disregards the fact that in recent weeks...

There's been a significant effort to increase the amount of aid that's going in. And I quote, it is illogical to suggest that conditions will worsen when improvements are already evident on the ground. What do you say to that? Well, what I would say is that there has been indeed an increase in commercial and aid flows into Gaza, but they remain well below what is needed. We have real-time information systems that are telling us that food consumption...

at the household level is well below what's needed. And unfortunately, we're still at a level where these famine thresholds have been breached. And an issue as complicated as a spike in acute malnutrition That's not resolved merely by letting trucks in. It requires very specific medical attention. The final major thing that they say is that the IPC has presented projections of... dire situations in Gaza in the past, which in their words, did not materialise. What's your response to that?

allegation that look the IPC is projecting that things will get considerably worse and in the past well it hasn't quite worked out that way. The IPC has repeatedly warned about a risk of famine since late 2023. What's new today is that the IPC is able to confirm with data.

So this is not more of the same. This is a clear confirmation. There are very few famines that have ever been confirmed by the IPC. So this is a fairly conservative mechanism, the IPC. And it is now telling you, after having... provided warning in 2023, 2024 and 2025 that we have now breached these thresholds, that that's what the data says.

data cruncher at WFP headquarters to what this looks like and feels like on the ground. Yusra Abu Sharekh is the Gaza Programme Coordinator with the US-based International Network for Aid, Relief and Assistance. She lives and works in Gaza City. There is no source of food, not only like flour or bread or the very basic pasta, for example, but also nutritious food. After five months of...

having no meat, no eggs, no fruit. Our bodies are very weak. We all experience the malnutrition. I see the symptoms of malnutrition on my children, especially the younger one. People here in Gaza Strip are being starved. They don't have any access to not only food, but most importantly, the nutritious food. I see myself and witness cases of manrest.

babies and children come to the clinic. The lack of food, the lack of hygiene as well, and the water has led to more and more communicable disease, diarrhea, and very wasting. issues among children. So children in Gaza Strip are paying the highest price of this conflict. So the trauma is multi-layered, not only among children, but also...

among adults and humanitarian workers as well. Yusra, you were talking about the people that you're seeing in your clinic, but you also mentioned that you're... seeing the effect of shortages within your own family. Do you mind me asking, how old are your children? Twelve and seven. Right. And you said that the younger one, your seven-year-old, you're seeing, is it a boy or a girl?

A boy. So you're seeing the effect of hunger is particularly acute with him. Can you tell me more about that? What are you seeing? He is in need for protein. Since March, he didn't eat any protein, so he cannot eat well. He cannot survive on bread. He cannot survive on only pasta, the only limited options that we have. The symptoms in him is more obvious. It's killing me. Whenever I look to his knees and arms, I feel like, what shall I do as a mother for him to be in a good...

shape and better health conditions. So it's a nightmare. The Israelis say that a lot more aid is going into Gaza now. Are you seeing that at all? After the very strong advocacy in July, they allowed the entry of very limited items to enter through the commercial supplies. through the humanitarian corridor. And the humanitarian aids are being militarized, and they are not protected, and there's no...

corridors that are safe for the humanitarian organizations to be used. So the only very limited commercial items from commercial supplies are entering Gaza Strip. but yet is not enough after five months of blockade and closure of all the crises. It's about the collapse of the system. Yusra Abu-Sharek speaking to me from Gaza City. This is NewsHour.

And a reminder of our main headlines this says, we've been hearing a UN-backed body has confirmed a famine in Gaza City after 22 months of conflict and Israeli restrictions on aid deliveries. The IPC says... It's expected to spread to other parts of the Strip by the end of next month.

The UNA chief Tom Fletcher has pleaded for Israel to open all of its land borders to Gaza for humanity's sake, as he put it. Israel says there's no famine and the report is based on Hamas lies. We'll be getting an Israeli... government response in just a moment. And Palestinian media are reporting that at least 12 people have been killed in an Israeli airstrike on a school in Gaza City, sheltering displaced families.

This is NewsHour from the BBC with me, Tim Franks. And let's return to our top story this hour, this report by the IPC, the UN-backed body which looks at data worldwide for determining food insecurity and their conclusion that famine is... present in Gaza City, an area that's home to hundreds of thousands and that it's projected to spread elsewhere in the Gaza Strip.

I did mention in my interview with that senior official at the UN's World Food Programme some of the specific criticism of this report from Kogat. which is the part of the Israeli military dealing with the issue of getting aid into Palestinian territories. We did ask for an interview with someone from Kogat. We've heard nothing back. So instead, we've sought reaction to the IPC report from Fleur Hassan Nahum.

who's with the Israeli Foreign Ministry. They've been making worrying statements for quite a while now, haven't they? We've had statements A few months back, about 14,000 babies to die in 24 hours, which turned out to be a lie. Nobody corrected. A year and a half ago, they were talking about impending starvation. In November of 2023, they were talking about the end of the...

energy and fuel in Gaza. So we've had a lot of these wolf cries that in the end turn out to be based on Hamas sources, bias sources and incomplete information. This is just the new blood libel this week.

no famine in gaza there is of course food insecurity as there would be in any war and there's hundreds of trucks going in with food supplies every single day okay let's try and pick apart some of that i mean obviously blood libel is a very strong thing to say but you also said in terms there is no famine I mean this is an internationally

It's a UN-backed body. It's seen as, I mean, as we've heard from the head of or the director of food insecurity, rather, and a data cruncher at the World Food Programme. It's the gold standard of these things. And they have said... There is famine in Gaza City. And for that, three thresholds, very specific thresholds have to be passed. They have been passed. And that is why they have said that there is... famine in Gaza City, you have said that that is not the case in terms.

Can you explain to me how you have come to that conclusion? Because their data is based on a terrorist group that is actually using the international community and aid agencies to put out their propaganda. There is no famine in Gaza. There is no famine in Gaza City. There are hundreds of tracts. In fact, there's been more food going into Gaza during the war than whatever went in.

before the war. Well, that's not actually the case. It is in tons of food, absolutely, and it is in calories. But Hamas is involved in a very sophisticated campaign where they put out the numbers. numbers are regurgitated by the UN. The UN is in cahoots with Hamas because for weeks they refused to distribute the aid because they were saying that they couldn't guarantee it wasn't going to fall in the hands of Hamas. And so it's those same people.

who employ terrorists, who have Hamas members within their so-called international aid agencies, who refuse to work with the humanitarian foundation. It's those people they don't quote in the... report. any of the meals that have been distributed by the GHF, including 150 million meals. So yes, they've taken partial data. It's a politically slanted body with a political agenda.

It's making the propaganda case for Hamas, for a terrorist group. OK, well, again, lots and lots of things that you've said. Let's try and pick up on some of them. So you talk about the amount of aid. That is going in, undoubtedly, I mean, compared to when Israel blocked all aid from going in over 11 weeks earlier this year, there is... more aid now going in but will you accept or do you accept that there

could be a difference between, for example, this Gaza Humanitarian Foundation that you referred to. They are distributing some food. 150 million meals in the last few weeks. Which conceivably... It could, by their own numbers, that could amount to one meal a day for every Garzan. But that is if every Garzan were able...

to get to the food. And we know with the GHF sites that often it means that it's young, fit men who have to run the gauntlet of live fire to try and get that. For famine to be declared... One of the thresholds is that at least one in five households face an extreme food shortage. It is possible, isn't it, that not all the food that is getting in and obviously one then has to talk about.

water and fuel and so forth, but that it is getting to the most vulnerable people and the most vulnerable people are the ones who are most likely to suffer from malnutrition. The problem was, and this is why the Gaza Humanitarian Front has to exist in the first place, that all the food going in wasn't actually getting to the regular people because Hamas was stealing the aid and using the aid as a currency to keep the terror.

going. Can I just pick up on that, if you don't mind? I mean, just, and this was a piece that was written within the last week or so by Jacob Lew, who was until the start of this year, he was the US.

ambassador in Israel. He is a friend of Israel, a self-declared friend of Israel. He has written a piece for foreign affairs in which he says, and I quote, Until January 20th, 2025, in other words, when he stopped working as the ambassador, neither the IDF nor the UN ever shared evidence with us or asserted to us privately.

that Hamas was physically diverting US-funded goods provided by the World Food Programme or international non-governmental organisations. That's him saying in terms that what you are saying is wrong.

Two weeks ago, the UN put out a report saying that 86% of the aid was getting into the hands of Hamas. This is the validity of these reports, you see, that one day they say this, the next day they say that. 14,000 babies are about to die. The next day they say, oh, no, no, no, no, that was just alarm.

You don't know what to believe, and I'll tell you why you can't believe any of it. It's because the numbers, the data, is being supplied by the terrorists that did this to their own people, which is not reliable. It's part of a propaganda campaign.

And unfortunately, the whole world is very, very happy to believe the numbers of a terrorist group that's keeping their own people hostages as well as 50 Israeli hostages. If they want the whole thing to end, it's very simple. Return the 50 hostages and it's all over. That's all that needs to be done.

to happen. And so the pressure has to be put on Hamas and not the only democracy in the Middle East. Israel is the one that is responsible for the amount of aid that gets into Gaza. It is also responsible. to an extent for how that aid is then distributed because the bodies that try to distribute it often find that it's incredibly difficult. I mean, they wait hours and hours and hours in order to be able to try and take some aid through, and then it's often stripped by...

desperate people. I just wonder, Fleur, whether you actually, there is a danger here. I mean, you talk about a sort of massive worldwide conspiracy somehow to defame Israel. Are you slightly concerned at all? that Israel is presiding over a man-made famine which will leave Israel really outside the company of what most people would consider to be nations that they would like to associate with.

Ultimately, if people fall for the propaganda of terrorists, it says more about the people who fall for it and the people who are doing the propaganda. So you're describing the IPC as the propaganda of terrorists? Yes. Yes, because the numbers are coming from Hamas. And everybody's relying on Hamas like they're a serious source for numbers, except they are a terrorist group. A terrorist group that actually committed a genocide on the 7th of October. All we want is our hostages back.

of our threat in our southern border. That's what we want. If that happens, it's all over. Israel just wants to live in peace within its borders. And that's what Hamas and the jihadists around the world that support them and the shills around the world.

supporting the Islamists, supporting Hamas, are doing the campaign for them. Unfortunately, that's the reality we live in. I'm hoping one day everybody will wake up and understand what's really going on. And that was Fleur Hassan Nahum from the Israeli Foreign Ministry. This is NewsHour.

Welcome back to News Hour. A story now that probably would have gotten more coverage in normal times, but these, as we've been hearing, are not. particularly normal times. And that's the aftermath of the floods which hit northern Pakistan a week ago. Hebar-Pachtunkhwa province was hardest hit. Hundreds died. The photographer Mohamed Asmar Hussain has been to the region, and from Mardan in the north of the country, he told me what he'd seen.

It was a cloud outburst flood. They have not seen such water like in a century. Like I have talked to a person who was 90 years old. He said, I have not seen such level of water before. We have seen huge boulders and stones. and the population who were living adjacent to the water channel, they are totally under that mud and that stones.

The level of water was very fast that destroyed many homes and because of that there are 300 plus deaths in only one village. And the village was adjacent to the water channel and there was a home where wedding festivities were in flow. So most of the people died in that home. When it comes to the response of the authorities, I mean, obviously...

As with any natural disaster, part of the problem is just reaching people because roads have been swept away, as you were talking about, the huge... torrent of mud that has swept down the valley what's the response like especially in comparison you spoke to us in the wake of the floods three years ago which were terrible what would you say the authorities response is like this time round.

This time there was a much better response. Everyone was issuing alerts and issuing notifications to be safe. The chief minister of this province has spent last three days in that area. He himself visited there. the prime minister and the chief of army staff in just one week everyone have visited that place it's taking a lot of time to assess what actually damage has been done it's a mountain area so and there is one road so machinery reaching

like on the mountains, it's very difficult. The main problem is reaching those mountain hill areas. Mohamed, you began the interview by saying that this cloudburst flood was...

sort of once in a century event, even the oldest person you came across had never seen anything like it. Are people saying that they're concerned, though, that this type of flooding is going to become... more frequent because of climate change. I mean, we saw terrible floods three years ago. People worried that... the floods are just going to hit more and more regularly. And, you know, maybe, I don't know, are they worried about rebuilding?

Yeah, the main thing is rehabilitation. It will take a lot of time because I have seen in past week, people are throwing mud out of their shops and their homes with shovels, their children and the whole family working to... put out mud in their shops and in their homes. So they don't know where to start. And also the main concerning thing is they should not build on the same place near to the water stream because these floods will be happening in future frequently.

The photographer Mohamed Asmar Hussain speaking to me from northern Pakistan. You're with the BBC World Service, and this is NewsHour, live from London, with me, Tim Franks.

This time last week, Donald Trump was about to meet Vladimir Putin in Alaska in the US president's high-voltage, high-publicity attempts to secure an end to the war in Ukraine. That was followed at the start of this week by Vladimir Zelensky and several European leaders heading to... the White House, where they carpeted Mr. Trump in praise for his efforts. Today, there's been a rather cooler appraisal from the EU forum policy chief, Kaya Callas.

especially about the fruits of that Alaska summit. She's been speaking to the BBC's Leila Nathu. First, where did Kaya Callas believe the efforts to bring an end to the war had reached? We see Europeans, Ukrainians, Americans wanting peace and doing all the diplomatic efforts to achieve that, whereas Russia is just dragging feet. It's clear that Russia does not want peace. So Putin is not to be trusted in terms of wanting to end this war?

No, I mean, this hasn't changed. This is very clear that any promises that Putin has been given so far, he hasn't kept and we have to treat it as such. But to also... have all the efforts in really pressuring him to come to the negotiation table. And there we have different tools. I mean, the Americans have leverage with the sanctions or tariffs to pressure Russia.

into negotiations. We are working on our 19th package of sanctions on the European side to really put the pressure on Russia, the one who is doing the aggression here. Did President Putin then just take that very warm welcome on... American soil as his victory. Is that where it ended for him, do you think, after Alaska? Well, this is what he wanted. I mean, it was clear before the meeting that he wants the picture, but he got so much more. He got such a welcoming...

in America. And then he also wanted the sanctions not to be put in place, which he also achieved. So I think right now his interest is down because he has achieved what he wanted from this meeting. What about this idea that President Trump now seems to be on board with the fact that there doesn't need to be a ceasefire? before meaningful peace talks. I mean, we've just seen another huge wave of Russian strikes on Ukraine. Is President Trump right?

Well, President Trump has been repeatedly saying that the killing has to stop. And Putin is just laughing, not stopping the killing, but increasing the killing, actually increasing the bombings on Ukraine. You can't possibly... negotiate under, you know, bombs. So you need to have truce to sit down, to properly talk about the long-term peace. But I also want to emphasize that it can't be just truce or ceasefire. It also has to be...

long-term solution. Otherwise, Russia will just gather its forces again and attack again. So we have to make sure that they don't do that in the future. That's why we are discussing about the security guarantees that would be...

really credible and robust so that Russia wouldn't try again. Is it your understanding now that the US has offered security guarantees to Ukraine? And in what form? Because we're hearing from J.D. Vance now. Vice President, talking about Europe playing a leading role in Ukraine's future security and taking the lion's share of the burden. So what will the US role be?

Well, Europeans have already taken the lion's share of the burden when it comes to supporting Ukraine. We are talking about military support, financial support, also political support that we are giving to Ukraine. we talk about security guarantees, then in order to be really credible and robust guarantees, the United States has to be part of them because it has to act as a deterrence to Russia. Of course, we have the coalition of the...

And I'm super happy that the Americans have also been open to participating in those security guarantees, whether it's with the air defense parts or other. There are other elements that they can bring to the table, but it is important that these security guarantees are not only on paper, but actually really working in practice. The European Union's foreign policy chief, Kaya Callas, and she was speaking to Leila Nathu.

Antoni Gaudí is probably Spain's most famous architect. His most well-known work, the Sagrada Familia Church in Barcelona, is still under construction more than 140 years after the work began. and now he could become famous for more than just his architecture. Earlier this year, the Vatican officially began the process to consider Gaudi's sainthood. The BBC's Max Hawbury has this report from Barcelona.

Querido Antonio Gaudí, acompáñanos desde el cielo en nuestro camino de cada día. María Teresa de los Ángeles is a nun in Cardiz in the south of Spain. And almost every day she prays to the architect, Anthony Gaudi. To some, he's known as God's architect. Pope Francis, in one of his last official acts before he died,

put Gaudí on the path to sainthood. I knew only that he helped architects and I wanted to ask on behalf of a friend of mine who's an architect and when I felt listened to I became interested in his life. I pray to him, the example he led by, trying to bring others closer to God and find God in that beauty. I'm meeting José Manuel Almuzara in a cafe by the Sagrada Familia.

Since 1992, he has been campaigning for Gaudi's sainthood. I once took a group to the Sagrada Familia. We entered the church and then suddenly I hear someone shouting, José Manuel. There was an older man. He was saying, but I'm an atheist. What's happening to me? His eyes were teary because he was thinking, if I'm an atheist, how can it be that I'm so moved by this architecture and this church?

I've come to the Gothic Quarter of Barcelona. It's one of the oldest parts of the city. It's also now one of the most touristy. And I'm standing in front of the Cathedral of Barcelona. I've come here to meet with Archbishop of Barcelona, Cardinal Juan José Omeya. He now heads the official association that is working towards Gaudi's sainthood and liaises with the Vatican.

We have a miracle presented to us by a father on behalf of his son who is ill in the Netherlands. And the doctors say that surprisingly... He's been cured. And so they have to study that in the Vatican. And then there would be another step, which would be sainthood, for which there would need to be one more miracle. Why him specifically?

In churches, the teachings and the things they want to show, they usually have on the inside. Gaudi puts it all on the outside. He says, I put it on the outside so that anyone who doesn't want to go inside... or doesn't have the faith, can ask himself, why? This is an evangelist. This is a saint. He invites you so that you can discover what he has discovered. He was someone who led a very monastic life.

Geis van Hensbergen, Gaudi's biographer and author of a book about the Sagrada Familia. Off every evening to confession and then he'd come back. It would be straight back to the drawing board, muddling with little models. What would it mean for Gaudí to be made a saint? I think our idea of holiness can change. We can understand that it's not just relegated to the cloisters or the church.

lay people and professional people artists also have that holiness in their way of living and whatever aspects of human life can be full of holiness It still could be many years for Gaudí to be declared a saint. But for the man who designed the Sagrada Familia, there's no rush. Max Halbury. And if you want to hear about Gaudi's architecture and spirituality, do search for the full documentary Gaudi, God's Architect on the BBC website or wherever you get your podcasts.

British scientists have discovered a new species of a large plant-eating dinosaur that had a sail-like structure along its back and tail. Fossils of the animal, related to the better-known iguanodon, were found on the Isle of Wight off England's south coast. The researcher who identified the beast is Jeremy Lockwood. He used to be a medical doctor.

Then he became a PhD student. This was a fairly large herbivore, probably walking around on four feet most of the time, but could probably raise up onto two if it needed to. It was probably in herds and would have been the size of maybe a small American bison when it was full grown. And on its back, it had something distinctive.

It did. So we think it had a sail running down its back onto its tail, which sort of stood out and is quite a different thing from the other similar sorts of iguanodontians that we find on the Isle of Wines.

What do you think the purpose of it was? We did quite a bit of research when we found this animal into what was actually happening with the neural spine. So the spines rising up from the vertebrae running along the back. And we actually went back into the Jurassic, which is much earlier than this dinosaur, and started measuring. the heights of neural spines on these animals and followed it right through really to the the end of the dinosaurs these animals started to get taller neural spines

And this combines with a change from a smaller bipedal animal into a big, hefty sort of mega herbivore. There seems to be a mechanical... for having taller neural spines. They developed a crisscross of tendons running across these, and some of these have actually been preserved in the dinosaur group that we're looking at. So it was a bit like a bridge. It needed more support for its spine, including its increased weight and bulk. That was the first stage, but in a few.

a few dinosaurs and i think there's probably four or five examples around the world the neural spines became much taller than was clearly necessary for a mechanical function. So if we look around at lizards today, we do see several species that have this... this sail running down their backs it's slightly bigger in the males but it's on males and females and this is sexual signaling this has evolved due to sexual selection

It's extraordinary that you've sort of, I'm sure you were an incredibly successful family doctor. Tell me what it's like now to have sort of achieved scientific success in an entirely different field. Well, it's been really nice for me.

I needed a new subject to, well, maybe keep my brain active. And it was a question that had been concerning me for a long time, that the anatomy that we were seeing here showed variation that couldn't be explained by the... at that time only two iguanodontian dinosaurs in the isle of wight so it's quite time consuming doing a phd but now that i've got it it's it's opened up new doors for me it's been

I mean, I'm very lucky to have discovered three new dinosaurs. We found 10 on the island over the last six years. So there's a real renaissance in dinosaur discoveries in this little island. off the south coast of England, probably finding more than a lot of places in the world that are really well known for their dinosaurs.

And that was Jeremy Lockwood. He was a PhD student when he began his work. I'm delighted to say, and you're probably not very surprised to hear, that he now has his doctorate. You're listening to NewsHour, live from the BBC. You're with the BBC World Service and I'm Tim Franks with News Ad, live from London.

We're going to return now to the series we've been running this week, looking at the transformation of immigration enforcement in the United States, especially... in the light of the huge funding boost that the Trump administration and the US Congress have awarded the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, or ICE, as it's known.

We've heard already this week from two brothers in their early 20s deported from their home in the United States to El Salvador, having lived in the US since they were children. And we heard yesterday from Caro and her husband, who've lived in the States for 18 years. Recently, Caro's husband was stopped and ticketed on a charging of driving while under the influence. In April this year, my husband had a problem with the traffic police.

It's said that ICE got into the police's records and they came for him to our house. I go to work in fear, not knowing if the police or ICE will stop me. I'm worried. My children are a concern. What would happen to them if I was taken? We work hard. We don't steal. We don't hurt anyone. We pay our taxes and we're helping this country.

My colleague James Menendez has been speaking to Ron Vitiello, who is acting director of vice during Donald Trump's first presidential term. He's now a senior advisor to U.S. Customs and Border Protection. How would he characterize President Trump's approach to immigration? Well, I think he's made a commitment on the campaign that he's now following through on. Crossings are down to the lowest levels I've ever seen.

And then the interior deportation efforts are going along. I think it took a while for them to scale. But again, you know, in order to. secure the border and make streets safe and meet the commitment to regulate immigration and have a system that has integrity. I think it's going very well. What is the ultimate aim? I mean, you talked about fulfilling a campaign promise. I mean, is it to remove all undocumented migrants from the US and what the estimates are about 11 million people in total?

I don't believe he committed to removing all, but a substantial effort. focused on threats to public safety and individuals who are unqualified to be in the United States. And that does include people who are here after crossing the border illegally.

The biggest increase in the number of undocumented migrants being sent back is now those without criminal records. I mean, do you support that approach? Yeah, it's a very nuanced kind of description of who's here and who's being sent away. There are 8 million people in the United States on official government records who have matters pending before the immigration court. Over a million of those...

are people who have already been ordered by the judge. So they've gone to a hearing. They've requested relief from the government and have been ordered removed from the countries. They were targeting people who had significant criminal records or threats to public safety. And immigration officers, ICE agents, mostly assisted by many other federal agencies, are instructed not to ignore other people they find in pursuit of those targets. And so that number is going to change and fluctuate.

Reporting by the White House and the border czar says that 70 percent. of the people who are being removed fall into one of those categories. That means a threat to public safety, whether convicted or not, criminally involved, whether convicted or not, or a fugitive from immigration court. I mean, we spoke to one woman. She was telling us about her husband. They both lived in the US for 18 years. He was picked up on a suspected DUI offence, his first offence.

Ice managed to get hold of the details. He doesn't have documents. He has two children here. And he is being sent back. I mean, she told us, you know, they've worked hard, they pay taxes, they haven't committed any felonies. Should people like him be sent back after so long in the US?

Well, that is exactly how the law works. If you're here without being inspected or admitted by the government, you are in the country illegally. And that is the way the statutes are written and the law is executed. And so when an immigration officer finds someone in that condition in the United States, they're subject to removal. And so they put them on that path.

In which case, the wife should also be sent back under those rules. But the two children, who are 15 and 9, I mean, they were both born in the US and are therefore US citizens. That would separate the family, wouldn't it?

Well, that would be up to the family. They certainly could go back with their parents or their parents could elect to leave them with guardians in the U.S. But again, if I go out and I commit a heinous crime or any crime in the United States, my children would be left alone at home. with my wife. Our family will be separated during the pendency of my case in local jurisdiction. What is the target, though? I mean, I know they've set monthly targets, but I mean, at what point...

Does this process stop? I mean, you say probably not all undocumented migrants, but how many and who draws the line? Well, the president promised the largest deportation effort ever seen in modern day. And so they've started on this process. ICE assumes that they need about 100,000 detention beds in order to conduct removal operations.

And so that means finding people, putting them in on the path for removal. And so that could be millions of people during the time that these operations are underway. Yes, and they're forecast to deport 400,000 this year. which may also go up. So we are talking about millions. And I suppose my question is, is it desirable to send so many back people who are working people who are paying taxes? I just wonder, should the focus not be on legal pathways to allow those people to stay.

Well, the president has limited powers to adjust someone's immigration status in the United States. And it's usually not based on them being here illegally. If people want a different outcome or if they want to make accommodations. For people like you talked about that have been here quite some time, Congress would have to change the law and adjust immigration rules accordingly. But as it is now, if you're here illegally under those circumstances, you're subject to removal.

But would you support greater efforts to allow more people to stay? And I suppose you know what I'm getting at, which is that actually, can the US afford to remove so many people, given that there is, what, almost full employment? at the moment. I mean, unemployment running about 4%. Most economists consider that full employment. What's going to happen to all those industries, whether it's agriculture, construction, and so on, that depend on much of that labour?

Well, that's an interesting question. I think that the law does not account for whether people come in or not or stay or not based on economic conditions. It's based on the simple test. Were you invited? Were you inspected? Did you come across the border with the. of the government. And so the U.S. could be in a situation where the labor market demands other facets to be changed in the law. But as it is now, those avenues don't exist.

And that was Ron Vitiello, who was acting director of ICE during Donald Trump's first presidential term. He was speaking to James Menendez. That's it from this edition of NewsHour, where our main story has been the UN humanitarian chief pleading for Israel to allow more aid into Gaza, saying enough is enough, as he put it, after a monitor body confirmed famine for the first time.

In Gaza City, it's found that 130,000 children are now at risk of dying from malnutrition. From all of us on NewsHour, thanks for listening.