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Hello and welcome to News Hour Live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Rebecca Kesby. Is the United Kingdom on the verge of replacing another Prime Minister? The incumbent Sakir Starmer faces fresh challenges to his leadership today, beginning with the resignation of his health secretary, Wes Streeting, who has already called on the Prime Minister to step down after z disastrous local election results last week.
Timed with perfection to hit the lunchtime news headlines, Mr Streeting published his resignation letter, taking the opportunity to pour more criticism on Mr Starmer as he resigned from cabinet.
Where we need vision, we have a vacuum. Where we need direction, we have drift. This was underscored by your speech on Monday. Leaders take responsibility, but too often that has meant other people falling on their swords. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.
It is now clear that you will not lead the Labour Party into the next general election, and that Labour MPs and Labour unions want the debate around what comes next to be a battle of ideas, not of personalities or petty factionalism. It needs to be broad and And it needs the best possible field of candidates. I support that approach and I hope that you will facilitate this.
Just a snippet from the letter, well Wes Streeting hasn't yet triggered a leadership election as such, but some do hope he will. Among them Allan Gemmel from Scottish Labour. He wants Wes Streeting to take over as Prime Minister. But some remain loyal to Keir Starmer and believe a leadership election is the last thing the Labour Party or the country needs right now. Just for context, the UK has had four different Prime Ministers in the past four years already.
Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson says now is not the time for another change.
The Prime Minister has my full support and I'm really sorry to see Wes Gawd. He has been a brilliant health secretary. He's done a fantastic job and we see that today with the NHS waiting list numbers that are really encouraging and what people want to see but I fundamentally disagree. with the position he's taken. I'm I'm sad that he's gone, but I think this is now a chance for us to pause, take a breath as a party and try and draw a line under all of this.
Well now in the past couple of hours another political bombshell launched from the northern city of Manchester is Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Manchester, says he's going to stand for election to return to Parliament, which would mean he could challenge Keir Starmer himself if he wins. I asked our British political correspondent Rob Watson first about that prospect of a by election. How did that come about and is it guaranteed that Mr Burnham would win it?
I think by the way it is the most important development and it and it may help to see to see a path of where we go in this extraordinary tumultuous period in in British politics. So let me say what a by election is. That is a an MP.
uh who wants to see from the Labour Party wants to see Andy Burnham get into parliament so as he can challenge for the leadership has decided to step down in order for that to happen. So the by election the earliest it could happen is in the sort of middle to late June.
And uh a and essentially could Andy Burnham win it? Well, it would be tough because the populist right of centre reform party is very, very strong i in that part of Manchester. So it'd be a it'd be a tough one. But of course if he was to win it it it would mean he could turn round to the Labour Party and say, Hey, you know, I'm the guy, I'm the guy who can beat reform, which is what they're all worried about. So it's a hugely significant development. And the reason why it matters in terms
of timing us and I I I sort of hesitate to say that things might calm down between now and then, Rebecca. But but it is possible that they do, that that is you know, that everything waits to see whether he wins that by election and then we proceed from there. And and why all that matters is that both within the country and within the Labour Party, uh Andy Burnham is considerably more popular than Kirst Dahmer.
Well, for the time being though, um prime ministers don't tend to stay popular in this country at the moment, as we've seen by the sheer number we've had in recent years. I mean everybody who's in interested in British politics at looking at all the minutiae on all of this.
But how is it playing in the country?'Cause I notice there's one comment here from a Liberal Democrat uh uh coming from the Cabinet Office spokesperson and she says, um, the arrogance of these men is staggering to believe that representing a community is a gift to be handed to your mates. grace shows utterly out of touch contempt.
Well, th that is a huge danger that Andy Burnham will face in going for this by election, to look like you've given up his job as mayor of Greater Manchester. i in order to try and g leapfrog into another job, the the job of Prime Minister. And he's acutely aware of that and and he will be um
He's already said that he's going to fight, fight for every vote. But I mean, i i in terms of the public, what are they thinking all o all of this? Well we we the voters are are sending not for the first time contradictory messages. So Polling suggests that voters absolutely loathe Keir Starmer. I mean loathe him with a with a passion. But guess what? The voters say they don't want the sort of chaos
of internal Labour Party in fighting. So that's the voters for you and and of course it's why we're in a crisis.
Briefly, Rob, Mr Starmer said he knows he's got his critics, is how he put it. He didn't say I know I'm hated by many, but so far he's saying he's gonna fight on, isn't he?
Yes, and and I think he's gonna continue to make that argument that look, we promised the voters in twenty twenty four there wouldn't be the chaos of the Conservative years. And a leader leadership election would be exactly that kind of chaos that we promised we wouldn't do. Whether the Labour Party's going to buy that argument, I guess we're gonna find out between now and sometime in June, Rebecca.
And very briefly, Rob, uh in you mentioned a little bit about Andy Burnham. He was in Parliament, wasn't he? But he stepped down to go and be Mayor of uh Manchester.
Yes, absolutely. He's fifty six. He's from Liverpool. He's one of those characters who had a working class upbringing, then he was educated at Cambridge. He's been in politics pretty much ever since. A and you know, he he is seen as the most likely the best chance that Labour has.
Our British uh political correspondent Rob Watson keeping across the detail there. Well this is all coming off the back of really bad local elections, as Rob was saying. Uh so was this implosion inevitable though, or could the Labour Party have handled it differently? Are they creating a crisis out of a concern? It's a question I put to Tim Bale, Professor of Politics at Queen Mary University of London.
No, I don't think they are. I think the results of the local elections and the elections in Scotland and in Wales were quite frankly catastrophic for the Labour Party. and suggest that it really does have to do something in order to try and get back into the public's uh esteem and affection. And one way of doing that is obviously to try and replace its leader who isn't seen as particularly popular, indeed one of the most unpopular prime ministers that we've seen since polling began.
Uh so replacing Keir Starmer for many Labour MPs does seem to make sense.
Mm. But I mean it's yet more chaos for the United Kingdom, isn't it? I mean Keir Starmer won a landslide victory two years ago. Now he's facing the act. Something rather similar happened to Boris Johnson who came in on a on another landslide. This is um a few years ago, but then within a couple of years he was also very unpopular in the polls.
Yes, and some people are suggesting that somehow this makes the UK ungovernable. I don't think that's necessarily the case. If you look at both the people you've mentioned, Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer. They've actually shown themselves not really to have the skill set that is required to run a complex government and to inspire people at the same time.
I think there are some people within the Labour Party who might have the capacity to do that. So I wouldn't entirely dismiss, if you like, the kind of personal side of politics in all this. I think it's possible to say obviously, like many other countries, the UK has its structural and its economic problems but actually it's had rather a bad run of Prime Ministers recently.
As we were hearing from our correspondent just a few minutes ago, there's Still jeopardy in involved. We understand the mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham, will be making an effort to become the next Prime Minister by trying to get back into Parliament. Of course he's gotta win that election first. Are there any guarantees though that a change in leadership will change the situation?
No, there aren't. I mean it's a roll of the dice for the Labour Party and they can look back at some attempts to replace Prime Ministers that didn't work, but they can also look back at some attempts to replace a Prime Minister that did work. Boris Johnson, for example, took over from Theresa May, the Conservative Prime Minister at the time in twenty nineteen and totally transformed the prospects of the Conservative Party.
and won an election in twenty nineteen. Uh there are a few other examples from history as well which shows sometimes you can do it. John Major taking over from Margaret Thatcher in nineteen ninety is another one. So there are no guarantees but I guess where you when you're uh when you're in a crisis situation sometimes uh you know, that's all you can do. Uh if it works, it works. If it doesn't well, are you in any worse position than you would be if you hadn't made the change?
But has the nature of politics changed? Now you m you mentioned John Major back then. I mean anyone that wanted to rival John Major or any other Prime Minister back in those days would have to somehow get themselves on a T V station or on radio. They'd have to do an interview, they'd
have to try and make their case publicly like that. Now every MP is constantly on social media, uh chattering amongst themselves using the same sort of uh social media and the electorate is on social media, being fed various different memes. And so on. Um, has that changed the entire nature of politics?
I think it's certainly changed the way that uh politicians have to communicate and it has to some extent, I think, destabilised parties, to be honest. I think it's much more difficult for a prime minister or a leader of a political party to stamp their authority on a political party when i social media offers the opportunity for rivals and particularly ambitious rivals
to set out a an alternative agenda. Uh so I think the pressures of the premiership have always been pretty intense, but I guess social media has made them even more intense over the last few years.
Rydyn ni'n ei wneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneudol ymwneudol ymwneudol ymwneudol ymwneudol ymwneudol ymwneudol. few days. What message is this chaos if you like showing the world about the way things are done in Britain. I mean, are Britain's partners in Europe looking and thinking, well who's gonna be running the country in the next few months is Mr Trump looking at the UK and thinking the same?
Well I certainly think our partners in Europe are thinking Brexit isn't such a great idea because uh since twenty sixteen obviously the UK has run through a fair few prime ministers. I think as far as the markets are concerned, I mean they are obviously going to hope that things settle down. They don't like uh instability. And they are important. Um Britain borrows an awful lot of money and obviously instability and uh to some extent political chaos very often makes the cost of borrowing higher.
We know what mister Trump thinks. He's already said of Keir Starmer, he's no Winston Churchill. Is Winston Churchill the kind of leader Britain needs right now? What's your view?
Well, Winston Churchill was a really great war leader between nineteen forty and nineteen forty five, but interestingly in nineteen forty five people decided that he wasn't the best leader to, as it were, win the peace. You don't get many Winston Churchills anyway, to be honest. Uh I think Labour will just be satisfied with someone who is a better communicator
than Keir Starmer and who has, I think, more of a vision for the country and get things done. And some of the candidates will obviously be arguing that they are that man or indeed that woman.
Tim Bale there, Professor of Politics at Queen Mary University here in London. There is a live page on this for those of you really interested in British politics, all the ins and outs, lots of reaction and uh well endless speculation as to what may happen next. On the BBC live page, do check it out and if there are any developments, we'll bring them to you.
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Still to come, a discovery in Thailand, a new dinosaur said to be as big as nine elephants, but with a little tiny brain.
Oh it's difficult we can't we can't be sure because we can't observe them actually behaving but Essentially we we know that plant eaters generally don't tend to be as bright as your carnivores. I guess it you don't have to be as clever to outwit a plant as as a meat eater has to outwit another animal. So so carnivores tend to be cleverer. Herbivores, you know, their main job is to avoid getting eaten, eat some plants, make some baby herbivores and that's job done.
More coming up in a few minutes there. Our headlines, as we've just been hearing, a leadership challenge is looking increasingly likely against the British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, whose governing Labour Party suffered devastating losses. In elections last week, Donald Trump says President Xi Jinping has offered China's help to open the Strait of Hormuz and we'll come back to that story later this hour. This is Rebecca Kesby with News Hour live from the BBC.
Next to Cuba, where the energy crisis has hit a new low earlier, the communist government said the country has now run out of diesel and oil, and some have been out on the streets protesting about it. But the sound of protesters hitting pots and pans there in the streets while the fuel shortages have been exacerbated by a US imposed blockade of oil in place for weeks already.
In the past, Cuba has relied on supplies from Venezuela and Mexico, but that's largely been cut off after the US action to remove Venezuela's president earlier this year and threatened tariffs on any country that supplies oil to the communist government in Havana. So how bad is the situation now? I've been speaking to journalist Ariel Navarro, who's in Havana.
The situation is quite delicate. I mean this is not from one day to another. We have been facing this scarcity for many weeks already. But right now I think we are like in a like in a turning point because the blackouts are are going on between twenty four hours, seventy-two hours. in some places, in Havana and in in the other part of the country is going even more than that.
I guess the impact of it going on and on is that you know, the the impact on the health system, the security situation, but also with regard to food. I mean, who can keep a fridge running at the moment? Nobody, I guess.
Nobody. Nobody. I mean nobody can escape from that. I mean there are like certain places prioritary sequids, but those places can be like that no more. So it's like everyone is facing the same situation. So yeah, it's been a huge problem for many reasons already.
And there's been protests again in the past twenty four hours or so, uh people out on the streets banging pots and pans, calling to turn the lights on. Who who are people blaming for all of this? The Americans for the blockade or the government?
I think people are more focusing in blaming the government. Because this is not a new thing and it's not a thing only related to the the USA. This is in that's been going on from last year. But right now we are like in a really critical point. I mean, like I mentioned before. We are facing between twenty four and seventy two hours without electricity. I mean, I have friends, I have family that have been living with one hour of electricity at four days. It's been quite hard so far.
Really difficult. We understand though that the Cuban government is now saying it's open to receiving a US offer of a hundred million dollars in aid. We understand the US is saying that that that's That's got to be distributed by the church or other independent means, not the government. What can you tell us about that and is this new that the government is saying that it will think about taking that aid?
It's quite tricky because two days ago they were saying that the USA never offered this money. So now they changed the whole position that the USA did offer this money. So it's tricky to say if they knew about this. humanitarian aid or not. I think the offering from the US government will help a lot, but at the end it relied in what way the government, the Cuban government handles. It's hard to say if that really going to help.
hope to solve the situation or at least to ease the situation right now. But I think it's it's something that we will figure it out in the next few days. It's so difficult to predict what is going to happen at the moment.
I mean that that was m gonna be my last question actually. I mean, can the communist government survive this? And For how long? I mean, even things like communicating with the public can't be easy if people don't have access to electricity, they can't watch T V or even listen to the radio half the time.
Yeah, I won't say it was funny but it was quite often. strange because yesterday they had like this whole press release about what's going on with what's going to happen with electricity and with the fuel and oil during this day.
And they put it at six PM and almost no one had electricity at that time. The mass media like radio and TV, people without electricity, it's impossible for them to understand what's going on. I think It is right now the time to sit down and start like a serious and transparent negotiation with the US.
That's journalist Ariel Navarro speaking to us a short time ago from Havana.
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Some exciting news now because a new species of dinosaur has been discovered in Thailand. Scientists have been examining uh fossils connected with it for years. They were all found near a pond in the northeast of the country. They've named the dinosaur Nagatitan after the giant mythological water serpent Naga, and Paul Upchurch is a paleontologist at University College London. He's the co author of the study announcing this exciting discovery.
It would have been about twenty five to twenty eight metric tons, which um sounds impressive, but you know the Sauropod dinosaurs got bigger than that. So if you if your listeners imagine something that would have a lot looked a lot like a Brontosaurus, so long neck, small head, standing on all four legs, that kind of animal. Um but this is one from Southeast Asia. We don't know much about what was going on in that part of the world um about 110, 115 million years ago when this animal lived.
Right, so uh we think what, it was a vegetarian? What kind of lifestyle did it have?
Yeah, th the all all of these animals they're called sauropods are are basically planty. So it they potentially lived in herds um and essentially used their long necks for getting vegetation from you know the tops of trees. A few of them specialized in sort of you know getting food from lower levels but that The main thing essentially is is a bit bit like giraffes in in that sense of using the long neck to get up high.
Right, and it was found near a pond or or sort of wet area. Is that significant? Uh y you call it after this uh water serpent, Naga.
Yeah, well it's I mean, you know, it's i it's very nice when you get to name a dinosaur'cause you can use your imagination. Um the the name uh was uh produced by my my Thai colleagues, and I think that's their their right given that it was found in in their country.
Uh I think it's quite an evocative name because obviously it's it's a serpent, it's uh it's a reptile, so it kind of makes um sense from that point of view. But actually I uh my understanding is that the ponds sort of started to dry up because of um weather or climate and that helped reveal the bones.
Right, I understand. So um tell you you gave us the tonnage earlier, but no sort of visual on uh how big it might be. Um because it is it's quite big, isn't it, for dinosaurs in that region.
Yeah, so um an animal like this would have been around twenty five meters long, that kind of thing. So um uh people would say sort of imagine three double decker buses lined up in a row kind of thing. Um so they're quite they're quite large. The same weight as as um uh nine Asian elephants.
Well that's big one. That's pretty bad. That's pretty big. And we think it had a big long neck like some of the others that you mention. Um what about the climate? Because um I read that you discovered that the climate um was a little bit hotter and that had an impact on them.
Well our our understanding is that um essentially from around when this animal was living, about hundred and ten, hundred and fifty million years ago, from that point onwards for the next twenty million years the earth got hotter and hotter because of increased C O two.
climate change, global warming, all those kind of things and got and got extremely hot um uh you know at at that at its highest point. And for some reason the sauropods seem to do quite well under those conditions. Um they they have some some structures. related to their lungs that allow them to collect heat from the insides of their bodies and then expel it when they when they breathed out. And that might have been quite a useful thing to to be able to do um under those really hot conditions.
I'm just taking a look on the BBC website of an artist's impression of it. Um it's got quite a little head. Do we think they were very intelligent?
Uh no. I mean it's difficult we can't we can't be sure because we can't observe them actually behaving but Essentially we we know that plant eaters generally don't tend to be as bright as your carnivores. I guess it you don't have to be as clever to outwit a plant as as a meat eater has to outwit another animal. So so carnivores tend to be cleverer. Herbivores, you know, their main job is to avoid getting eaten, eat some plants, make some baby herbivores and that's job done.
That's paleontologist Paul Upchurch there. And there is a a lovely uh depiction of the new dinosaur on the BBC website. He looks quite sweet actually. I say he could e easily be female. We didn't get into that. Um but anyway, giant as uh the name implies.
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Welcome back to News Hour. New evidence has emerged that Neanderthal humans use software. Stone drills to treat their dental cavities fifty nine thousand years ago. A molar found in Siberia features a deep hole apparently excavated while its owner was still alive.
Justin Durham is professor of orofacial pain at Newcastle University and the British Dental Association's chief scientific advisor. He seen a photograph of the tooth in question, and news hours Paul Henley asked him what he made of the dentistry.
Well it's fascinating. Um simply fascinating because of the the age of the tooth and the time period involved. I mean I'm not a Neanderthal expert but The the accuracy of the way that they have managed to access the nerve of the tooth to decompress what would be some of the swelling that would be causing the pain is is quite phenomenal given they're trying to do it, as you said, with stone tools.
They've drilled right down to the gum, haven't they?
Yeah, so they've drilled through into the nerve of the tooth, which sits just above the bony attachment of the roots of the tooth. And that's where you get irreversible swelling and infection when you've got dental decay and you get toothache. And that's the starting point of a modern dental procedure, except with a modern dental procedure you would have local anesthetic in place so the tooth would be numb um and you wouldn't be feeling any uh pain from it.
Uh except so for this Neanderthal patient, as it were, they would have been experiencing every single scrape of the stone tool going down to a extremely irritated nerve in the two throots.
Ooh, and it's a it would have been a very rudimentary stone drill, no anesthetic as you say. Give us an idea of the length of the procedure and the pain involved.
Well, I mean I think the the the study itself actually tried to replicate the procedure and and they seemed to think it was gonna take at least fifty minutes under ideal circumstances on a on a lab bench, but then you've got a Neanderthal patient
on the end of this, who's feeling everything. They've got a tongue, they've got teeth around it, they've got moisture, they've got writhing in agony. So, you know, an hour is quite a long time anyway, and I would suggest it probably would take a bit longer than an hour, given that the they would have probably needed a break.
the dexterity and the and the thought process behind working out this issue uh that needed decompressing is is quite phenomenal because you know that that's based on you know modern anatomical understanding and Neanderfels clearly didn't have the anatomy textbooks or understand that.
And their accuracy with uh locating the the nerve of the tooth with their drilling is beyond belief if I'm honest. I I looked at it and thought, well, it it very much looks like almost a modern day access cavity that we would drill with a very high speed
But you're making a lot of people wince. But we have to hope that there was some so ancient form of local anesthetic, perhaps herbal to to dull the pain slightly, don't we?
Well, possibly. I mean, we still learn an awful lot thing things like um salicytic acid which forms part of aspirin, comes from the bark of trees and things. So there may have been something that they could have used. In the barbarous days of dentistry, people might have used alcohol as one way of sedating someone to get something done.
Certainly tough, weren't they, the Neandertals? That's Justin Durham there, professor of orofacial pain at Newcastle University, speaking to Paul Henley.
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You're listening to NewsHour live from the BBC. I'm Rebecca Kesby. Next we're off to China because slightly later than was originally planned, President Trump has arrived in Beijing for a state visit with the Chinese Premier Xi Jinping. Full military honours were on display outside the Great Hall of the People to welcome Mr Trump.
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Is it all going so far? Our China correspondent Laura Bicker reports from Beijing.
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President Xi put on a carefully choreographed show to welcome Donald Trump. Together they inspected a military honor guard outside the great hall of the people before being greeted by cheering school children waving Chinese and American flags. It was pure pageantry, but then it came time to dig into policy.
双方应当做伙伴
The two countries should be partners, said Mr Xi, rather than rivals. In response, the US leader lavished praise on his host.
uh we're going to have a fantastic future together. Uh such respect for China, the job you've done. Uh you're a great leader. I say it to everybody, you're a great leader.
The talks lasted more than two hours, longer than expected. It's thought President Xi pushed the US to stop its arms sales to Taiwan, the self governing island Beijing claims as its own. The White House said both.
Both sides.
It's also discussed the war in Iran and potential trade deals
Cheers.
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Fried pork buns, Mr. Trump invited his counterpart to the US.
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Our China correspondent Laura Bicker in Beijing there. So what else is on the menu at these talks? Well instead of taking the first lady with him to China, as he did when he visited in his first term back in twenty seventeen. This time mister Trump has arrived with a collection of top executives and tech bosses including Elon Musk.
For a Chinese perspective, I spoke to Brian Wong, assistant professor in geopolitics at the University of Hong Kong, and I asked him first for his observations of the meeting so far, the body language, the comments from the men. How's it going?
despite his by and large material nature and tendency to go, you know, off script, right, and to produce incredibly intriguing remarks, shall we say, he he by and large stuck to what he acknowledged to be uh the purported red lines of the Chinese state in his public remarks today.
You say Mr Trump uh may make uh intriguing comments about China. He's actually made some pretty offensive ones in in the past. I mean he's quoted as as saying China's ripping off the United States, raping the United States a as well. What if anything's changed then in his attitude towards China and why?
Look, when Donald Trump went on his tariffs uh liberation day last April, that really didn't go down particularly well for him, in the sense that Beijing retaliated by activating its uh choke point, right? The choke point of rare earth. And that obviously, you know, led to a a mass panic and pandemonium amongst many of the large players and constituents of Donald Trump's uh military industrial complex uh backers, as well as of course technology companies that were wholly reliant upon
uh Chinese supplied rare earths and magnets as well. So I thought that perhaps was a bit of a wake up call, you know, for Trump and his cabal of advisors that to pursue this unbridled and unmanaged decoupling from China was un infeasible. and also untenable. The second wake up call was perhaps uh more of a self inflicted
maybe equally self inflicted, let's put it that way, right? When it came to the war in Iran and that's when Trump decided to go on his excursion, quote unquote, by launching uh the attacks on Tadan. And of course when you poke a tiger in its eye, even if it's a wounded tiger, the fact of the matter is the zealotry and also the compulsion driving said tiger would inevitably lead it to retaliation. I suppose Trump was Humbled indirectly by what happened.
Right, so on the issue of Iran, China is their biggest customer. We did get some strong words last week from the Foreign Minister Wang Yi saying, you know, it's a priority for Tehran must You know, see it as a priority as getting the straighter forms open, a fairly strong language, but was it enough? I mean couldn't China do much more in terms of wielding the leverage it does have over Tehran and wouldn't that be something that it could offer to Mr Trump at these talks?
Well, most certainly. And I think that's also an impression that the Chinese side, you know, just as a matter of an official line to take would be keen to project that it does have this lagging chip and leverage. But I'd also caution against over reading into
said leverage, right? At the end of the day, Iran is not a monolith. So you've got of course the civilians and those who are more by and large moderate amongst the conservatives, right? These civilian leaders tend to be more open to persuasion and also economic
leverage and uh negotiations with their counterparts in Washington, in Islamabad and also Beijing. And yet at the very same time, the assassination and a subsequent hollowing out of the previously intact leadership structures has essentially paved the way for the rise of extremely hard lines
So I don't think Beijing has leverage over that faction or that group of the Iranian establishment pro se let's not overstate, I guess, the leverage China has given the the realistic circumstantial constraints on the ground.
That's Professor Brian Wong speaking to us earlier from Hong Kong. Well this evening Mr Trump and the US visitors were treated to a lavish banquet in the Great Hall of the People and uh in a speech President Xi Jinping told Mr Trump that China should be partners um and not rivals with the US.
中美关系是当今
The China US relationship is the most important bilateral relationship in the world. We must make it work and never mess it up. Both China and the United States stand to gain from cooperation and lose from confrontation.
Well, after the banquet, President Trump spoke to Fox News, their Hannity programme, and on the subject of the war on Iran, Mr Trump said President Xi had offered to help open the Strait of Hormuz.
Anybody that buys that much oil has obviously got some kind of a relationship with him, but he said I would love to be a help if I could be of any help whatsoever. He'd like to see the hormone straight open. He said, If I could be of any help whatsoever, I would like to help.
Well, it does sound then as if things are going fairly well so far, but what about that comment from our previous guest that mister Trump has been humbled by the war in Iran? Adding to that, the Chinese Communist Party controlled Global Times newspaper recently described President Trump arriving in China like a giant with a limp.
So has mister Trump's position with China been weakened by his war with Iran? I've been speaking to US Republican Congressman John Molinar, Chair of the House Select Committee on China.
No, I don't believe that's the case. I believe he's actually in a stronger position. When you consider that there's general agreement that Iran should not have nuclear weapons and should not be able to threaten neighbors and allies and we've taken out their military capabilities. I think that's significant. And it's important to note that President Trump has come in in a strong position of advocating for American agriculture as well as
technology fairness and trade. But at the end of the day, I think it's important that the two leaders just meet, build the relationship and one of trust because That has been a huge problem where Xi Jinping would agree to things and then would not follow through
Y you mention Iran, that has been very costly for the United States, hasn't it? I mean, leave aside the issue with the Strait of Hormuz, just militarily, the amount of hardware that the Americans have used in prosecuting the war on Iran the manpower that's been moved to the Gulf from other areas, including the Pacific. That's bound to have a knock on effect. Does that leave the Pacific in a in a weaker position defensive wise in terms of what the Americans can offer?
I think it's more a question of necessity of there is a r recognition that Iran was enriching uranium. We cannot allow that to be a threat to the world. And so I think decisive action was taken and the world is a safer place. Because of it, now in the short run there this conflict has its costs, as you point out, but in the long run it will be better and lead to a more stable Middle East in the long run.
You think Mr Trump needs to sound tougher on China than he has in in recent times? I mean particularly on the issue of Taiwan, which I know you you're very strong on. You've been very interested in that area for many years. And Mr Trump sometimes doesn't sound very committed on the issue of Taiwan. I mean he's
talked about China considering it to be part of China and the quote is and that's up to him what he's going to be doing, referring to President Xi. Should Mr Trump take a much stronger line?
think he's demonstrated by his actions a toughness. He has provided more arms to Taiwan than any other president, the most in history. The strategy there is to continue to support Taiwan's defense. Secretary Rubio was very clear that there's been no change in Taiwan policy. We respect that there needs to be peace. across the Taiwan Strait and we support the status quo.
And so I think we've been very clear on the importance of Taiwan and making sure that Taiwan can defend itself. And unfortunately it's been China that has been uh moving the goalposts on this. At the same time, we're asking Taiwan to do more for their own defense. We believe in the strategy that a deterrence is more effective than uh tempting China through weakened defense.
You mentioned this deal that the US has done in terms of supplying Taiwan. I think they struck it back in December. It's worth around eleven billion dollars worth of arms, I think. Have they actually arrived yet though, and are you still in a position or is America still in a position to actually supply them, given its own needs in the Gulf?
Our defense industrial base is gearing up in a stronger way. We've recognized that we need to continue and enhance our defense industrial base and make sure that Taiwan gets the munitions that were promised. And we're going to continue to do that and we continue to work with them to help improve their defenses uh every way we possibly can.
China has a relationship with Iran and we know that the Chinese Foreign Minister had some pretty tough words for his counterpart in Tehran recently saying that, you know, the Strait of Hormos has got to be opened or it should be a priority. But do you think Beijing is using as much leverage as it has over Iran and would you like to see them being tougher on Iran?
Yeah.
I would like to see them basically act in their own interest to keep the uh straight open. They need to stop buying, you know, illicit oil, sanctioned oil from Iran. They buy ninety percent of Iran's oil and they are also supplying Iran with dual use technologies and materials that are used for military purposes and have also helped Iran with some of their
satellite imagery. And so when you look at what they're doing there, what they're doing to help and assist Russia, you see a very active participant in these conflicts and Of course, we'd love to see them stop doing that and be a more responsible partner throughout the world.
Republican Congressman John Molinar, their chair of the House Select Committee on China. That US state visit to China continues tomorrow, and we'll be keeping across it for you right here on the BBC World Service.
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This is Rebecca Kesby with News Hour live from the BBC. Let's turn to Venezuela now because more than four months after President Nicolas Maduro and his wife were seized by US special forces and Taken to a prison in New York, there's still little sign of meaningful political change in their home country.
Venezuela's interim leader, Delcy Rodriguez, is Maduro's old deputy and many of his other acolytes are still in power. The judiciary, the military, the security forces and other institutions are all essentially unchanged. So is that it or will the US, which seems to be calling the shots now in Venezuela, start to put on the pressure for a genuine political transition?
Leopoldo Lopez was once the best known opposition figure in the country. He was a young, charismatic firebrand who took on Maduro and lost the asked spending seven years either in prison or under house arrest before escaping into exile in Spain, and news hours James Menendez has been speaking to him and he asked him first how much had changed in Venezuela since January.
Well I think that there is uh a very important change, significant. Maduro is out. Maduro is facing justice. That in itself means an important change. There are also changes taking place in the economy. There is an opening to the oil and gas industry, and there is a transition that is yet not a political transition to democracy. But we are not where Venezuelans hope to be, which is in a free, prosperous and democratic Venezuela.
Who's in charge? Is it the United States? I mean is Venezuela currently effectively a an American protectorate?
Well I think Venezuela is under significant influence by the US and that that's very clear.
They're calling the shots effectively. I mean w what Washington says go.
In a great deal that is true. Maybe some of the people that are listening to us would say wow that's uh something unacceptable. Well, it's important that we understand where we come from. Five months ago Venezuela was under the tutelage. Not of the US, but of Russia, China, Iran and Cuba. So unfortunately Venezuela was not uh exercising its full sovereignty before and now it's under the influence of the United States.
Which is something that most Venezuelans appreciate. More than eighty percent of Venezuelans appreciate positively the capture of Maduro and the influence of the United States.
You're happy with that situation for the moment?
I am happy that Maduro is removed. I am happy like most Venezuelans that there is a window of opportunity. We are also very conscious that we need to build the path to democracy.
Do you think this Trump administration is interested in democracy in Venezuela?
I think uh the United States inevitably is interested in democracy in Venezuela. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said several times that there is a plan unfolding on three stages, stabilization, economic recovery and transition. And he has said several times that that transition is to a legitimate government and that a legitimate government can only take place if there is an election. So
But what's the timescale? I mean what timescale would you like to see for that transition to elect
It should happen as soon as it can happen. But then we should talk about what are the conditions for that election. So it's not just about the time for the election, it's what needs to happen. And let me just unpack Some of the things that need to happen. One, uh there needs to be an electoral board designated that will call for the election. Two, Venezuelans would need to be able to register.
Uh there are ten million Venezuelans living outside our country of a population of thirty million and those Venezuelans uh are not registered to vote. There needs to be a revision of the electoral system. However the transition to democracy is not just elections. There are other things that need to happen. And in my view, they need to happen now. One, the opening of the civic space. I think the opening of the civic space
needs the opening to the media, to freedom of speech. That is not happening.
At the moment would you say that people are not completely free to say what they want? I mean we've heard reports that people are able to to criticise the government or and voice their opinions in public more than they were when Maduro was in power, but but it's still limited.
It's still limited, there is still fear, there is still censorship. The laws that criminalize speech are still in place. A law called the hate law that criminalizes speech and gives total arbitrary uh to the state to incarcerate people for what they say.
essentially what happened to you, right? I mean that's that that's how they put you in prison.
Yeah. Well I was leading the protest against Maduro in twenty fourteen, but because they had nothing against me, they made up a case and it was a case about free speech because what went to trial were my speeches and because I never called for violence the judge concluded that I had sent subliminal messages to the Venezuelan people and on those grounds I was sentenced to fourteen years of imprisonment.
Can I just ask you one final question about the the transition? Uh and and it involves Maria Corina Machado, uh who effectively became the opposition leader. She wasn't allowed to stand in the elections. Uh somebody else had to stand in her in her place. Um Was she betrayed by President Trump over this transition so far? I mean she's been waiting in the wings for a long time. She looked like the woman who was ready to take over if uh Madura was deposed, which he was.
And then President Trump said, It's not the right time. Was that a betrayal?
Well I don't think it's a betrayal. It's a decision uh made by the US of how they wanted to do the transition.
If you were in her place, would you feel betrayed?
Well I don't think it's about feeling betrayed. It's about being focused on what needs to happen. And she's being very clear that Venezuela needs an election. that that election needs to have conditions that we need to unify the country around that idea.
Um thinking about what happened to you and uh all the others who ended up in prison, political prisoners and and and many of whom are still in prison. One aspect of the transition we haven't talked about is is is reestablishing the rule of law and uh and what happens to those who have committed human rights abuses. I mean w fr from a personal point of view.
I mean how angry are you about the way you treated and and and and the length of time that you had to spend in prison and and clearly the personal toll that that must have taken on you?
No, it's a it's it's a great question because I think uh at least my greatest personal
Victory?
Is that they didn't make me angry. And this is something that I share with a lot of political prisoners that although we were victims, although we were tortured, although our freedom was taken away, we are not bitter, we are not angry uh about
Why not? I mean it's perfectly legitimate.
Perfectly legitimate, but I think uh being angry makes you a worse person. And I think that our best reply to the regime is that they didn't make us bad people. that we remain to be committed, that we remain to be focused on our dream of seeing a free Venezuela.
That's Leopoldo Lopez, their leading Venezuelan opposition figure now living in exile in Spain. He was speaking to news house James Menendez. That's it for this edition of News Hour From Us All here in London. To wherever you're listening to us, thanks very much for joining us.
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