Has President Trump forced Israel to stop attacking Iran?

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Hello and welcome to News Hour from the World Service of the BBC, live from London with Owen Bennett Jones. Officials in the Gulf States have been saying for some time now that the US listens to Israel more than them. And there are some elements of the American right who've got a related complaint that Israel is persuading the US to make foreign policy decisions that are more in Israel's interest than America's.

I say this to you, and I say it with appreciation and respect in my good conversations with my friend President Trump. With unity, determination and wisdom, we will defend the State of Israel, and together, with God's help, we will restore security to the north.

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So where does that leave us? Uh I've been speaking with Gonshe Habibizad of BBC Persian. Israel did attack some uh Iranian targets around twenty four hours ago, so we started with that and asked her to explain exactly what was hit.

Well, some of those are clear where Israel targeted. One of them was a petrochemical complex in southwest the Iranian city of Mah Shah. M and that one Iranian media had confirmed it and also they said that in total fifteen had been injured, fourteen of them in Husassan province.

Mm-hmm. Okay. And then now since then we've got Iran saying its military operation in Israel is over. So t tell us about that and what the Iranian thinking is.

Well, the latest that we have had was by Iran's top negotiator Mohammad Barrett Aliba. who was leading the delegation in the first and only round of negotiations after the ceasefire between Iran and the US, which was mediated by Pakistan. And he said what we are aiming to achieve from the negotiations is an end to the war, not normalizing relations with the US.

Yeah sure. So there's this link now between uh you know, th what's happening in Lebanon and what's happening between the US and Iran, which Tehran has been trying to promote. But can can you just sort of if you go back to the beginning of Has Iran's negotiating position actually changed at all in in in this conflict?

Well, we have to go back to before the war because that time Iran was negotiating over its nuclear program, but this time they're just trying to reach a memorandum of understanding. And they have said this time nuclear is not a part of it and what they're trying to achieve is a sanctions relief and unfreezing billions of dollars that Iran has got. And Western banks and it seems that's the initial part for them. But also Lebanon is a key component of it, also the strategic Strait of Hormuz.

And that was uh Gonsha Habibazad, uh from BBC Persian and we can get an Israeli perspective on all of this now from Danny Setrinowitz, he is a specialist on Iran. also familiar with the US Israel relationship because he was Israel Defence Intelligence's representative in the US. So I asked him whether uh Benjamin Netanyahu has given in really to President Trump's demands to stop striking Iran.

You know, the real test will be when Israel will attack Beirut in the future. It will attack in the Berut in the future and if the Iranians will retaliate. Then we'll know the real results of this escalation. But in broader term definitely we're highly depending on the US. We cannot challenge the US.

Right. Because you know th there have been moments when Netanyahu has tried to resist US influence.

He tried to, but I think it's uh it's a hopeless cause. Because it's obvious that uh Trump wants to reach an agreement. It's obvious that he doesn't want to have spoilers. For him now Israel is a spoiler and uh he need to contain the spoiler and this is what he's doing and I think that Trump with his call with Netanyahu made sure that Israel will retell it in a minimal way.

Does this mean that President Trump has gone further than any of his predecessors in terms of uh giving Israel pretty firm instructions?

I think it's very interesting because President Trump was the first one that was willing to go the extra mile with Israel to attack and try to put top of the Iranian regime. We never had this president before. But on uh but when looking at what's happening right now, it's exactly what you're saying. He's going very far to uh negotiate with Iran and despite uh the Israeli grievan grievances.

Okay, so a lack of alignment and you're saying that's you know that's interesting and important. And presumably I mean you studied Iran too. Presumably there are people in Iran who who agree with that and want to make the most of it.

You're absolutely right. And the Iranians are seeking to exploit that to drive a wedge between Israel and the US. They believe that Trump wants to reach an agreement, he doesn't want to attend back to war. The US is preferring to contain and not escalate. So for them they identify that and they will keep pushing that. Now definitely will preserve good relations with the US. We have on a military level, operational level, but strategically definitely we are different now.

Can I just ask you th perhaps the key question, which is President Trump keeps saying we're nearly got a deal, we've nearly got a deal. The Iranians keep saying we're nowhere near a deal. We're no you know there's a l there's a huge gap between us. How realistic is it that the US and Iran can reach an agreement?

I think the truth is in between. Uh it's not that we are on the verge of an agreement, but b we're very close to one. And I think it's highlighted by the uh US behavior. I think that uh President Trump has many constraints from the World Cup to the uh Independence Day of the US through the midterms and I think returning back to the war, I'm not saying it's not realistic, but the price will be so high.

It would it be correct for me to interpret what you've said as Iran is basically winning this conflict? a conflict that the US and Israel started.

Oh definitely they won. Uh because this conflict was meant to topple the regime. Israel for the first time killed a leader uh of a foreign country, not to uh have an agreement on the nuclear and the regime survived and the regime won but not losing. And it's e even more than that, he preserved a lot of his capabilities, conventional one, but also on the on the nuclear one. So yes, Iran suffered and they have uh economical problems definitely and they lost Hamanay.

Do you think Iran has successfully linked Lebanon to the broader conflict or you know, by reserving his option to continue attacking Lebanon, has has Netanyahu resisted that link?

Definitely it uh created linkage. We saw that when Trump forced Netanyahu to do it to cease fire in Lebanon because Iran demanded that. And now we saw the linkage when they launched missiles against Israel while Israel attacking in the the Dach and Beru. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה, תודה רבה. תודה רבה.

Yeah.

If we uh Iran won Ritalia, then maybe something had changed. But for now I think I'm afraid to say that the Iranians w were managed as at least until now. to build this kind of a linkage that is very problematic to Israel because Israel is interested in continuing the war in Lebanon and disconnect it from everything that happened in relations between Iran and the US. And if the if the create linkage has been created, then Israel has to stop. So

Just one last question. Is the Israeli victory as many Israelis saw it in Gaza, is that slipping away because of the lack of any sort of long term strategic outcome for Gaza?

The problem Israel has that after the seventh of October our uh strategy is being determined by the F thirty five and F fifteen. We have open conflict in uh Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iran. Despite the fact that we have operational achievements, we are not able to close them by diplomatic means. And that is a problem because that is putting a lot of str uh stress on the IDF.

Some rapid fire analysis there from uh Danny Citrinowitz, uh specialist on Iran and also uh formerly Defence Intelligence as Israeli Defence Intelligence representative in the US. Just say some news coming in. Uh that Lebanon says Israel has struck the southern city of Tyre. Killing five people, that's Tyre in South Lebanon, just on the coast, quite near the border with Israel, so it seems that there is still activity, but in Lebanon not between Iran and Israel directly.

And coming up, we'll be hearing from a White House official involved in the upcoming FIFA World Cup about preparations for the tournament. Andrew Giuliani reacted to the news that Somalia's leading referee. Has been denied entry to the US where he was due to officiate in the World Cup.

That's the story of this World Cup. That's what the United States is doing to make sure that the world can be open to this World Cup. We want good people to come to the United States. We want them to enjoy America's 250th birthday and this World Cup with us, but we're not letting bad guys in.

Other headlines Iran and Israel have both said they're halting the first direct hostilities between them since April after President Trump demanded an end to the flare up in fighting. And members of parliament in Hungary have voted unanimously to cut their own pay and allowances as the new government seeks to reduce costs and stamp out corruption.

Now a striking statistic here ninety one per cent of online child sex abuse that's reported to the authorities in the UK contains self generated content. So that often means children taking pictures of themselves, sending it to someone and then regressing it when that image is spread around social media.

That is why today I am calling on tech companies operating in this country yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw Because this is not an impossible challenge. Mae'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r.

Baroness Kidron is a member of the British House of Lords, and she has campaigned on these issues for many years. What does she think of this announce?

Listen, every step forward to child protection is a good day in the office. But I mean I am bewildered and uh little bit cross and a bit bored by the idea that they need a three month window. And I'm really trying to get to the bottom of what the government is thinking. Are they saying in three months, if they've done it voluntarily, we will not legislate, in which case we cannot enforce?

Of this area in the UK, so they have some powers to sort of move against the tech companies. But I mean presumably one of the factors in this would be that if the government decides to go for a law You know, there'll be lots of complications about privacy concerns, you know, companies getting into your phone and your accounts. There'll be issues, you know, someone just saying in the office today, what happens if the doctor in a phone appointment asks for a photograph of a child?

There is always but I have to tell you, they don't go away just because they do it voluntarily. There'll still be all of those issues to work out. So uh uh rather than actually having uh the the regulator think them through and do them properly, you actually end up with someone in Silicon Valley or even more likely in fact uh someone in the global south who's been contracted by Silicon Valley to make those decisions.

Or a cat.

Yeah.

Yeah, but the difference is I guess, I mean this is the reality of being in government, isn't it? That these companies are hugely powerful. They control thousands of jobs in the UK, and the government is extremely nervous of annoying them for fear that they'll just pull out.

Do you know, I've been working on this area of uh tech for about fifteen years and every single time There is a socially beneficial action that may or may not hit their bottom line, they threaten to move out. And they never move out. Yeah. And what's more, I am old enough, sadly, to be there when they said two factor authentication would bring down the internet.

And that was Baroness Kiddle.

Last year they were very much on the south coast of Devon and Cornwall, originally in quite a restricted area. And then really just in the last month or two, fishermen in Wales have been seeing them as well.

Is this a unprecedented thing or is it the sort of thing that happens from time to time, or don't we know?

So there have been blooms of this species of octopus before. Um the last one was right back in nineteen fifty. There was a minor one in the thirties, and then before that nineteen hundred. But as far as I can tell, all the evidence is telling me that this is the biggest one ever. And also what's very significant now is that um they are breeding quite prolifically. So this is something that was almost never seen before.

Yeah, no the th the thing I was wondering about is if it's eighteen ninety nine, that's obviously pre climate change uh that we've been discussing in the last twenty three.

That's an important point. So we actually did the analysis here and what we found was with all of those historical blooms, they were unusually warm years for the time. And that's that's important. So because this is a species that normally likes warmer temperatures. It's normally from the Mediterranean and uh Spain and and North Africa. What seemed to happen in the past is, you know, they got here probably through um some chance events, some transport of of young octopus by the ocean current.

Right, and uh crabs don't like it'cause the octopus eat them. Uh who does like it? Absolutely. Who eats the octopus?

We know seals eat them. We know blue sharks have been eating them. We've seen pictures of blue sharks with sucker marks on the head. Congoreels is another big one. Um, we've actually got somebody saw a congareel sneak out and just bite off a tentacle. Um and also interestingly Rissos dolphins, which is a normally a deepwater species of dolphin that's actually become quite common over the last 18 months. And one of its favorite foods are octopus.

And that was the uh marine biologist Doctor Bryce Stewart.

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And welcome back to NewsHour. We'll be hearing from Andrew Giuliani, uh the White House point man for the Football World Cup in just a moment. But first it's no secret. That Russia has tried to use online disinformation campaigns to influence elections abroad. It happened in the US. uh in officials say there in twenty sixteen. It's been happening in many other countries ever since, most recently in Armenia at the weekend where there were elections and

Well for the Russian example, definitely. What we see with the Armenian election is yet another loss. for Russia. But from an Armenian perspective, the Russian interference in the election was really no surprise, but it was both less than expected and less effective than anticipated.

So is this because people are becoming more aware of it, do you think?

Well, I think in the case of Arminier there were three specific reasons. First, there was no real receptive audience. No one in terms of

Uh

Russian support able to amplify the fake news. Second, there was no real interest or investment from Russia, to be honest. This was a half-hearted, rather meager attempt. And it was limited to pressuring the government rather than promoting the opposition. But finally, and most importantly, Armenia, unlike the US example, had much more robust confidence and faith in democracy, and that was the winning formula to resist the infection of Russian fake news.

Are you saying that other places where this happened, I don't know, Hungary, for example, it was a more concerted effort by the Russians?

I think so. I think perhaps in Armenia it's simply worn out over time, a distraction with everything after the failed invasion of Ukraine. But to be honest, our challenge in Armenia going forward is Russia's economic leverage, not necessarily soft power or disinformation.

Sure, it's only one part of the story, but it's been a it's been a feature of elections for some years now, and it is quite interesting that it it doesn't seem to be having the impact it used to have.

Well, maybe we're learning to resist the taint and the literally infection of the toxic dis disinformation.

Well yeah, uh maybe also that it's being called out more clearly by by governments and officials.

And exposed in previous examples like Moldova, where it failed as well.

Exactly, because the the the the leadership there made a very big deal of it, didn't they? They really made that part of the campaign that this was happening.

Also because they were more vulnerable than we were, because in the Moldovan election their diaspora outside of the country was a voting bloc, whereas we don't have that option.

And there we are, that was Richard Garagosian in Yerevan.

The FIFA World Cup twenty twenty six co hosted by the United States, Canada and Mexico, begins this week. First match in Mexico City on Thursday. The whole thing's a huge global event. And of course there have already been some controversies, a lack of visas for the Iranians, some officials uh crazy ticket prices, hotels saying they're not full enough, but uh what's ahead? There's been a lot of excitement too. You may well be familiar with the name of the man

Well, I I love football, but I also love soccer, and that's why I'm here. I we got that from the British after all. You guys were the one that came up with soccer.

No, you can't call it soccer in the Football World Cup. Now then, which club do you support?

The United States of America, of course. I support the United States of America.

Okay. Uh well t well just tell us first of all about the um you know, th w what you're hoping will come out of this.

Yeah, well well look we we look at this as being obviously such an incredible undertaking to be able to do this Great tournament, not just uh uh not just the largest version so far of the of the World Cup that we've ever had with forty eight countries playing in this, but also to be able to do this over America semi quincentennial

Let me just did you hear our news bulletin, I don't know when you uh got connected to us, but the did you hear about this Somali referee who's been stopped from getting into the US?

I did.

So I mean that's a terrible thing. Ca what c can you can you talk us through how you're gonna resolve that one and get him in?

Uh sure. Well there were some very terrible people that he was talking to. And while I can't go into the D Rog on that, um what I can tell you is it was the right decision by a Customs and Border Patrol and I support that decision. Secretary Rubio made very clear a couple of days ago that while we want players, we want coaches, we want referees to come here to the World Cup.

Sure I'm sure you're not saying this referee is a terrorist, eh?

We will su w we will support we will support CBP's decisions from a security perspective to make sure that Americans and all of the great people, all of the Brits that are gonna come here to the United States and enjoy this, are safe while they have this World Cup. Well look ultimately what I can tell you is every visa decision is a national security decision.

What is the nature of the threat he poses?

As I told you, there's only so much that I can talk about with this. At some point there may be more release, but what I can tell you is this was absolutely the correct decision.

Now can you uh t t tell us about fans coming uh to the US? Uh there's been talk in the US of officials going through social media accounts. I don't know if that's what happened in the referees' case. Uh and you know, if American government officials don't like the social media accounts they may stop people coming in. Is that a risk that tourists to America for this

I do also want to point out though before we get in there that over twenty nine teams have come to the United States of America and you've seen every single player has gotten in at that at this point. So I mean I think it's always been a great success in terms of what's actually gone on.

It's not it's not nothing to boast about the players were allowed to get

Is that nothing to boast about, really? I mean I think you're framing this in one particular way over here. I mean there are some people that ultimately um you know we've had to look at and realize we want to make sure that the competitive integrity that's on the field

Yeah, okay, so Esther, just to explain, is the pre approval system for your for your visas. Just on this Esther thing, just so people know where they stand. Uh should they be uh you know nervous or aware of what is on their social media accounts if if US officials don't like what's on those accounts? Are they being monitored?

No, Secretary Mullen said they're not.

They're not being monitored. Okay, so people should... All right. Uh so tell us about um you uh other things that have you know come up in the prelude to this. Uh ticket prices, what's your feeling on that?

Look, ticket prices are high. We we've talked about this. When you have Over five hundred million requests that FIFA has gotten and seven million tickets. We got s over six million sold. When you end up having a World Cup and you combine that with the golden age of America when so many people want to come to enjoy this. Um you end up seeing high demand for ticket prices and that what that's what ends up happening.

What are the higher end prices, do you know?

They're quite expensive.

As you said, it's dynamic uh and it keeps changing. Again, FIFA's involved with the pricing. We're we're the U.S. government. We're not involved uh in price controls here um but uh but I know that FIFA is uh they're the ones that set the prices for for these games.

Sure. Uh on FIFA, you know, the US has a history of uh interactions with FIFA, some of them have been quite difficult in the past with the US uh you know v valiantly fighting FIFA corruption. What what's your experience been of uh the FIFA relationship this time?

It's been good. You know, I I think you see the the mutual respect that secretary uh that the secretaries all have. uh with uh FIFA President Johnny Infantino that President Trump have with them. Uh and it's been a really good cooperative working relationship here. Look, we don't agree on absolutely everything. There are certain things

And that was Andrew Giuliani, Executive Director for the White House Task Force on the FIFA World Cup twenty twenty six.

The scale of African involvement in Russia's war against Ukraine could be more significant than previously thought. According to the Ukrainian government, Russia has recruited nearly three thousand African fighters, and more than three hundred of them have been killed on the battlefield. Back home in Africa, only a handful of governments, including Kenya and Ghana, have objected to this, raising concerns over the recruitment and fate of their citizens.

I'm in a dining room and uh the prisoners are having lunch. They have uh Bread, they have soup and porridge sprinkled with some meat on top of it. I see. Access to this camp is tightly controlled. The media is invited here every month as part of Ukraine's effort to show the world it is complying with international standards on prisoners of war. Inside I meet Lud Beverly, a former soldier from the Republic of the Congo. He spent seven years in Russia and speaks fluent Russian.

I was at the training center for foreign military personnel for the Naval Polytechnic Institute in Russia.

From the food to the health care, the facility can feel almost ordinary, but nothing about it is. It holds captured fighters from across the world. One in eight of the men here are from Africa. Among them, Richard Carnot from Sierra Leone. He said he thought he was going to work as a security guard, but he still has hope of a better life. If you were released here and you're given an option or a chance to choose whether to go to Russia or go back to Israel.

Well.

100% choose to go back to Russia.

Why?

I have identity. I'm a Russian. I signed contact for Russian. And I want to go back to Russia.

Richard says he did not choose to join the Russian army. He believed he was signing a contract for a security job only to find himself in a military camp. Russia is widely accused of launching an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, a claim the Kremlin rejects. arguing it acted to protect Russian speaking populations and counter what it describes as expanding security threats from NATO.

Yeah.

I went to visit Richard's family in Freetown, and the reality he left behind is clear. His daughter, Elsie, lives with her mother and two younger sisters in a cramped makeshift home of corrugated iron and scrap metal. It's about two by two minutes.

They are fighting for me too to have a better life.

When I spoke to your dad, he also said that he would like to go back to Russia. How do you feel about that?

That's okay because he haven't achieved his dream yet. It's best that he stayed in Russia to achieve his dream than returning back to Seoul.

That sentiment echoes across the camp. Not necessarily a desire to fight again, but a sense that home is no longer an option. Twenty three year old Willy Macharia is from Kenya.

I don't know how long it will take, but I know that one day I will go back to Russia.

And yet, Ukraine's Foreign Minister Andre Sebia does not see the African prisoners of war as enemies.

They are the victims of this illegal Russian activities, illegal Russian propaganda. Sometimes they were invited to study in Russia and then suddenly they appear on the battlefield.

For now they wait and remain trapped in a war that is not theirs and facing home countries that are either hesitant or unwilling to try to bring them back.

And that was Sami Awami reporting from Western Ukraine where that facility is. Now the Kenyan government said in March that it uh had agreed with Russia that Kenyans would no longer be eligible to be enlisted. And after interviewing those prisoners of war, the BBC asked the Congolese government and the Sierra Leonean government whether they had engaged with Ukraine over their POWs, tried to get them back, but we received no response from either government.

Born in fourteen fifty two, the Italian Leonardo da Vinci was one of the highest functioning people ever to have lived. He made advances in art, Mona Lisa, anatomy, dissections and drawings, civil engineering, the bridges, water flow, geology he worked on fossils, and even optics the nature of light. Well now the Italian Ministry of Culture has launched a new online collection bringing together for the first time in nearly five hundred years his complete collection of drawings and notebooks.

When we think of Leonardo da Vinci we immediately picture the paintings and Mona Lisa, the Last Supper, but the thing is that beyond the twenty paintings attributed to him We do have nearly four thousand manuscript pages, four thousand. and this written legacy is so much less known than the pictorial one. This is what the Leonardo Teca precisely what is about. It's a remarkable opportunity. to explore this artistic and scientific culture of the Renaissance through one of his

It is, it's so exciting. I mean he died more than five hundred years ago, but I mean his technical ingenuity and creativity was so far ahead of its time, wasn't it? I mean he was dreaming up things that then others actually made inventions of things. I mean he's accredited with having an idea for a helicopter or some sort of flying machine, maybe the modern tank. And it was hundreds of years before anybody else actually made those things.

Exactly. And even when he didn't succeed, this is relevant for us. But the problem is that we would like also to encourage young scholars to engage with Leonardo's manuscript It is a genuinely a difficult undertaking. Made even harder by the fact that in the sixteenth century a sculpture named Pompeo Leone physically many of the pages and rearrange them. So the material itself comes to us already fragmented and disrupted. So the Leonardoteca is here to help break down those barriers.

One of the collections is here is under the Royal Collection I think. It's at Windsor Castle. How did that happen? How did the British monarchs get hold of

The story starts when Leonardo dies. And the manuscripts came into the possession of an Italian sculpture, Pompeo Leoni, who dismounted and cut the folios, separating the materials into two albums according to his own judgement. What happened is that in the early 17th century, Leoni's son-in-law inherited the manuscripts and sold the most substantial album. to count Galeazzo Arconati, who donated it to the Veneranda Biblioteca Ambrosiana in 1637.

One of the things that is so interesting about Da Vinci is the creative thinking. These days people are either scientific or artistic or they're sort of made to make the decision between those disciplines and actually he proves they go hand in hand.

these two fields that how we consider it today, they were intertwined. And it's beautiful to see in these folios, for example, there is another one which comes in a new light in the Leonardo Teca, is the one where is uh Complex studies of gears and screws. It is wonderful because the sheet offers a unique glimpse into Leonardo's universe where complex mechanical studies coexist with artistic research and everyday life.

And that was Roberto Ferrari on Leonardo da Vince.

Well it's potentially pretty large, but it Of course, dependent on the weather, uh and that we won't know until we get a little bit closer. But in theory, judging by, for example, some of the issues that were experienced during the FIFA Club World Cup, in which twenty fifth eighty one of the fifty seven matches exceeded twenty eight degrees Celsius. Uh it has the potential to be a problem.

I'm surprised that 28 degrees is the limit. That's not astonishingly hot by world standards, is it?

Yes.

Well d the twenty eight degrees Celsius that I just quoted is what's called a wet bulb globe temperature as opposed to the ambient temperature that we're used to on the weather forecast. And that index combines not just that temperature that you see on a daily basis on the uh say on the weather forecast, but it it also includes a globe temperature.

Gosh, I mean th that is proper hot. Okay, and y your point here is with this wet bulb globe temperature measure that if it's very humid, you can't sweat as easily and therefore you don't cool.

Yes, so once air temperature gets into the sort of mid thirties, the only way we can lose heat is by the evaporation of sweat. And that's going to be dependent on the m the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere. And of course As humidity increases, once the humidity gets to a hundred percent, there's no way you can evaporate sweat.

No, th the the World Cup was held in the USA in nineteen ninety four. I mean maybe there was a scientist, you know, one of your predecessors at Portsmouth was saying exactly the same thing before that tournament or Has it all changed? Is climate change that significant over that period to make the sort of difference?

The it's a World Weather Attribution Group, um, think the risk of the more extreme conditions has nearly doubled since nineteen ninety four due to climate change. So It may well be that it's not too bad on the day, but it could just as easily have another heat dome effect and then you'll be struggling because of that temperature and the likelihood of having that the heat wave at that time has been just about doubled since nineteen ninety four.

Mike Tipton on the Heat and that's it for today. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.

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