Whats Next in Podcasting with Adam Curry #601

Todd and Rob in the afternoon. Afternoon to love. With Todd and Rob. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, it's Oh, yeah. It it's Todd, Rob, and Adam today, not just Todd and Rob. Oh, yeah. Hey, everybody. Welcome to, the new media show, and, we're gonna have fun today. Rob wrote an agenda. Rob, why did you do that? Well, it's not an agenda in the terms that, Adam typically thinks about it,

with his no agenda show. It's more just, you know, things that we can cover on the show, but there's nothing to stop us from venturing off this agenda. Yeah. Absolutely. But, hey, by the way, happy birthday to podcasting. We passed it a bit ago. And by the way, Rob, we went over 500 last episode. We didn't even say even say anything. We yeah. We're 501 now. So, you know, your, cohost here failed in his duties to say, hey. Happy 500. I don't even look at the number. Congratulations.

500 new media shows. That's that's pretty cool. Yeah. It's not it's not bad. But we are live and lit today. So, if you are on one of those newfangled podcasting after podcast app.com, thank you so much. Otherwise, we're, we're streaming live at new me new media show dot com forward slash live and, of course, all the other great locations we go to that, pittance of people watch. But the more important thing, and most people that listen to this show actually listen and don't watch.

So, Adam, how are you? I'm good. I I usually listen, to the show. Although, I think last week or the week before, I did have fun. I was I was listening on, Podcast Guru, and, like, let me just see how ugly they are. And so I popped up, the YouTube, and then there was a chat going on in the YouTube. I'm like, oh, that's kinda fun. So, you know, I'm always a sucker for a good chat to troll along. Oh, they are trolling already. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. They're saying in the morning.

Yeah. I see. So yeah. Absolutely. So it's actually in the afternoon, but I we can't steal that one. But, anyway, welcome. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know that, the keeper has you, has you scheduled full. And Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a busy life, but, you know, she she keeps me grounded. She keeps me going. She keeps me social. It's very important that I get out of the studio and do something else from time to time. So, yeah, I'm I'm happy. And thank you for

inviting me. It's so nice to be back. It's been 2 years maybe since I've been on the show. Has it been that long now? Rob, you failed you have failed in your guest campaigning duties. Yeah. We've, I'm always respectful of your time. I know you're very busy, and you got a lot of stuff going on, but but it's great to have

you back. And, Adam, I would love to hear a little bit about, you know, your No Agenda show that you have and kind of what you're what you're seeing in the space and what you're trying that's that's new. I know that show has always been a little bit of the leading edge of your thoughts about podcasting. And if you wanted to start off there, that'd be great. Yeah. Sure. Well, first of all, this month, October, actually, it'll be 17 years that we've been doing No Agenda.

And, probably 16 years 9 months since we've been doing it value for value, which is, is just unbelievable. You know, we ask people to support the show with time, talent, or treasure, and they've been doing that diligently. I think after 5 or 6 years, it was enough for us to really start to think about doing it full time. It wasn't great, but, it certainly has built up over time.

And, in a funny way, we've been way ahead of the curve on some things, because we've been producing the show live for at least 15 and a half years. And I can't actually I mean, of course, I I do interviews and stuff, and there are a couple of shows that I don't necessarily do live. But, man, I love it so much because we have a chat, which we call the troll room. And, really, anyone can say and do whatever they want. But it's, it's an IRC based chat,

so it just kinda scrolls off. There's no no history of it, and someone may save it. But, so, you know, you could, ah, someone trolled me and they said something nasty, but it's gone within, you know, 30 seconds. Like, okay. It's gone. But I've really developed a, kind of a peripheral vision. It's always kind of right off to the side, and and I see stuff Just it registers like, oh, I look, and then the there's a a funny one liner or there's a a real

time fact check. You know, he said something wrong or dumb or stupid or someone actually has something to contribute. That's been really good. And in general, you know, this is the big secret of the no agenda show is the value for value really has gone to all parts of it. We have tens of thousands of producers. We don't call them listeners. We don't call them fans. We call them producers, and everyone has a responsibility to contribute to the show

one way or the other. And pretty much everybody has one thing they're knowledgeable about, you know, one Mhmm. One particular topic or subject or it's their job. And we, of course, we saw that during COVID, we had a lot of nurses, doctors, registered nurses, pharmacists, emergency workers, people in military, just all kinds of stuff they were getting firsthand. And so, you know, Boeing's on strike. We got people at Boeing. You know, we've got

everything. Someone is in a place somewhere, and we, we treat, our boots on the ground reports with respect. And if someone wants to be anonymous, we can assure that. As long as you send it to me, don't send it to Dvorak, then you're assured of anonymity. And that's really been, you know, the big, success of the show is that, it it's an ongoing collaborative, work. So at this point, you know, people have actually gotten to the level can we play well, we probably have about 90 to a

100 clips for each show. We play 60 to 70, I'd say. Oh, and it's short clips, you know, minute to 2 minutes, somewhere in that range. So there's people who send stuff in ready made. You know, we have this whole concept of the meetups where people organize meetups through no agenda meetups.com, which we didn't put together, of course. One of our sir Daniel,

manages that. He built that site. And there's probably 10 meetups every single week all around the world where people just get together, and they're, you know, they're not of the same age group or background or race or religion, but they have this one thing in common, which is the show. And, of course, as as with all good, clubs, cults, and communities, we have our own

little language. So in the morning, hit them in the mouth, the 33, douchebag, spook, spot the spook, I mean, all this kind of stuff, which is is is normal for any type of community. And so that really creates a bond. And, and we have some pretty good groups out there. I think of the people in Florida or Indianapolis or in the Netherlands, and they get together regularly. And it's 50 to a 100 people at a time, and

they've become friends. There's, I think, there's 1 or 2 marriages have come out of it. So to me, it really proves that, you know, I, I kind of believe that where we're at now is the future of all media is going to be small, and small dedicated audiences are really the way to go, you know, thinking that you can be the number one this or the biggest that. It's old fashioned. It's, it's old fashioned thinking because no one can do it. Even Hollywood can't do it anymore.

They're trying to be the biggest and the number one streamer and have the best packages, and they're all kind of failing. They're not able to pull it off, because that's just not the way the network operates. And this is something that we I think we all collectively saw it 20, 25 years ago, and now it's finally starting to take shape where, you know, the first thing to go, obviously, is the written word in its many forms. So news by itself is no longer a a product.

The way they were financing it before was, you know, kind of, was what's the word I'm looking for? They all kinda the the news people always thought that people were buying newspapers for the news. But, no, they're buying it for the classified ads. The classified ads paid for the news. News was always a subsidized product until you got cable news, and, you know, that is now almost wholly,

financed by, big pharmaceutical companies who advertise. So, you know, authenticity is what people are looking for, and they're looking for, real voices they can connect to. And that's kind of the spot where we're at. And so when Dave Jones and I started, Podcast Index 4 years ago, I mean, I'm just delighted with with what's come out of that because we really created a place where innovation happens, where different types of thinking goes into newer

podcast apps. You know, there's still, you know, like, well, we've gotta get Apple to do it, and I just don't I don't buy into that. I don't subscribe to that philosophy. You know, we can have our own apps, and we can have ones that each different show uses, and you can do whatever you want. And that's really the beauty of the original invention of RSS. You know, it wasn't I was listening to what was that? Slates was like The Last Slate podcast.

Some who I forget who it was, but she had on some some English dude who was, you know, podcast analyst. And, like, well, you know, podcasting, of course, they screwed it up in the beginning because they made it impossible to track anything. Yeah. Because we weren't thinking about that. We were just thinking about It wasn't the priority. Right. Yeah. It wasn't the priority, and that never has been. And, you know, to to the credit of of RSS, it's, you know, it's bulletproof.

No one can really break it. It's here to stay. It's a part of the underpinnings of the entire Internet, and it does enable anybody to say whatever they want. And with the, with the advent of the index, know, you're pretty much guaranteed it'll be there and not at the whim of a Silicon Valley company or Apple or whoever wants to be the on ramp to podcasting. So, in a way, the goals have been achieved and and and, you know, beyond any belief.

And I'm just delighted to see that it continues to flourish, and it's still a topic of hot debate and controversy. That means it's still relevant. You know, I saw this kind of, you know, you're relating to, you know, shows making comments about surviving monetization, gotta have a big staff. There was something on x, from Alex Goldman. And I don't even I'm not familiar with their show or what they do, but it's

I guess it's called hyperfixed. And he was just complaining about how he's losing money and, you know, he needs, his his day rate is only $288 a day. And and I'm just kinda giggling the whole time reading this thing, And he's got a whole different perspective on creating podcasts. And I replied back. I said, just remember, you know, 90 to 95% of podcasts are maybe even 97% of podcasts are staff of 1 or 2.

You know? Well, that's real and and that's really, the the it's been the secret to our success, not a secret, but that's been key, is that there's 2 people who do no agenda. It's me, and it's John. Now because we positioned our audience as our audience as producers, we have 10,000 producers, and it's a lot of work. It's like cats. You know? You gotta herd them. You know? I I have to go through my email diligently, excuse me, every single day because, oh, yeah, there's that guy who just sent me

10 emails. One of them is gonna be a gem. So you you have to you you gotta put that work in, but that's that's really all I do. So it it's not all that horrible. You know? And a lot of it's like, check out this 3 hour podcast. It's great. Okay. So can you give me some time codes or kind of where to find find stuff? But that's it. I mean, I produce the entire show. John does all the finances and administrative. His wife, Mimi, does the taxes.

We pay his, his daughter, Jay, to manage the spreadsheet, which is it's a tedious job, you know, to and and, of course, we have you know, when you support the show cumulatively up to a $1,000, you get a you become a knight or a dame. You get a ring. That's a lot of hassle to just do that fulfillment and make sure it works perfectly.

And that's it. Those are our costs. I mean, and it's just a a pass through LLC, and and we've we actually we we were doing it on a handshake for for 12, 13 years until the IRS said, what are you guys doing exactly? So how does that work? So then they said, you know, you gotta put it into an LLC. So we literally have a three line LLC document, and that's been it. And, I think we've we've just been fortunate, to have found each other. And, you know, we have a couple things

in common. One is we don't really like each other that much, so we don't talk outside of the show. We're not friends. We're not buddies. And, and we show up every single time, and we show up on time, and we do it the same time. And,

and we we really are consistent. And then the the one thing people always miss, and this is a a very important piece that John does, is we have a newsletter which goes out the day before every single episode that that we that we record that goes live to remind people in their busy lives that no agenda is coming once again. And, yes, we're reminding you to support it. You know, it it goes back to even deeper here. You know, the product your guys' production cost is your time.

That's your production cost. Yeah. And then you have the additional support of the team. So when people say, I don't have budget for production, I'm like, sweat equity, baby. When I was building blueberry and running a show and working a job, I I worked 18, 20 hours a day and didn't sleep. People say, how'd you get all that done? Sweat equity. You know? That's that's what you had to do and grind. And, you know, and this guy's complaining about

not making enough money. He's only making $18,000 an episode and I'm like, what's the problem? That's not bad. 18,000 an episode. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty good. Pretty good. You know, and I take that. And and then I'm like, you know, I'm thinking as a hosting provider and this is I brought up this up a couple times recently. We have not raised hosting prices since we introduced it in 2008. People in the early days bitched about the $20, the hosting cost. Man, they just scream bloody murder.

So now we are this many years later and and the cost hasn't went up a penny. Our costs have went up. You know, I had a 13% increase in, you know, in health health insurances last year. We ate it. We didn't raise prices. And why did we rate why didn't we raise prices? We can't. There's 25 companies that are out there trying to, you know, keep customers. So I, you know, cry me a river. You know? I I I you know, it's like I do a show. Rob and I do this show. We we

grind. And a lot of it's But but but with everything, Todd, and we saw this with blogs early on. People like, oh, I just publish a blog, and I'll make money. And, you know, I'll just do a podcast, and I'll make money. And the, the podcast industrial complex has, of course, supported that vision. Like, oh, you know, you can make money, and you just get enough people and grow sorry to say, grow your show. Right. And then you can have ads, and then everything will be great. You can

quit your job. I mean, I've been through that loop. I've been through the quit your day job loop. You know, when when we started, pod show, we actually we set up we had a network of podcasters. We set them up. We had, I think, 12 or maybe 14. We gave them we created LLCs for them. We gave them varying degrees, but between $50,75,000 a year just as a guaranteed minimum income, and then they could grow that amount based upon their success. And even that, we couldn't we couldn't make

it work. You know? There's just there's there's so much that is wrong with, podcasting and advertising. Yeah. It's really it you know, it's just not an easy fit, and we're seeing some of that now. It's it is a situation too where people forget that creating content is not necessarily the easiest thing to do. You have you have to you

have to work at it. And that's why we say such high failure rates is because shows say, oh, I'm gonna do a podcast and, you know, they give it 5 episodes and they bounce. You know, they don't realize that, you know, to create great content is good and if you are if sure if you're Oprah, you can have a 1000000 people listen to you immediately.

Doesn't guarantee they're gonna continue to listen, but, you know, Rob can probably attest to that having worked at, you know, the the shop that had all the celebrities, you know, being He's worked at every shop. That's right. He knows where all the dead bodies are buried for sure. But Yeah. You know, it's just one of those situations where you just have to grind. And, you know, it's, I guess, you know, some people are lucky and hit it big on TikTok or whatever and, you know, great great

for them. But this is the different kind of a medium where you gotta be able to connect. You gotta connect right here. Because It's an interesting time. I I agree, Todd, you know, that there is such an emphasis on how I'm gonna make this a full time career or a full time job, and I'm gonna make I'm gonna get rich being a podcaster and stuff. That seems to be the agenda. So you have to really kind of wonder,

why that's happening. And I think a lot of it gets back to is that people are are increasingly looking to create their own independent income and because they can't rely on getting jobs anymore. And I think that is a bigger What? Bidenomics isn't working? What? Exactly. We can't have that. Right?

So as as people look at, podcasting, I I think increasingly it is replacing mainstream media, and this really goes along with what you're what you're saying, Adam, is that we are moving into a new era of niche communities and niche interests, and also taking this content out of these big moderated platforms and going more direct. And so so talk about that a little bit, about the community dynamics and really moving away from these big proprietary platforms.

Well, it's what what podcasting has always been good at. Oh, I know. When it when it first started, you know, it was very obvious you had there's always some shows that are kind of general funny, but now it seems like most most of the shows that don't really have a mission are more politically oriented. But we've always had aviation podcasts, hiking podcasts, you know, football podcasts, football podcasts. You know, that's always been been really, been really, that's always been there.

What I feel right now is the big opportunity, which I'm actually working on myself, is, local markets. They've been completely ignored by radio. Radio is no longer, your your even z 100 in New York where I worked for many years. You know, it's Elvis Duran in the morning, but he's in 15 markets. And, yeah, you'll hear a, you know, a localized z 100 New York, jingle, but that doesn't mean that he's really he's do he has to do more generalized

stuff. Mhmm. There's almost no well, I mean, New York does still have some New York newspapers, but even they cater more now towards, the entire country or the entire world like the New York Post. Mhmm. And the New York Times certainly is is really no longer a local New York newspaper. Mhmm. Facebook has sucked up all the local advertising from any type of publication in any local market.

So I feel that at this point, there's a tremendous opportunity to create podcasts based upon very hyper local geographical location. In fact, I'm gonna be doing one for Fredericksburg right here. It's 11 a half 1000 people. We have, we're in between, San Antonio and Austin. So, you know Mhmm. Even even what Austin does is almost not just for Austin.

There's a lot of interesting people here. There's certainly a lot of of money in Fredericksburg, and we have one newspaper that comes out once a week and is very politically slanted. And people haven't have nothing to to really you know, they have they have no local voice. So, you know, it's it's such an obvious hole in the market. You could you could turn a 747 around in it. So and that's globally. Every

that's what radio used to do. Radio was local, and it just became so so, I mean, this all happened in the eighties nineties. Just, you know, let's expand and get bigger in acquisitions and, you know, networks. And, like, WABC New York has all syndicated programming that goes out across all the country. So, and, you know, and AM radio is is in essence going away, although congress is deaf you know, desperately trying to keep it in, but in in in cars, but electric vehicles have a real problem with

the with static. I mean, it's basically like holding up a hairdryer next to your AM radio so that they're not quite sure what to do and how to how to do that. So, you know, that's the opportunity I see, and I'm pretty sure that, that that's going to happen. I think we'll see in the next couple of years, we'll see many hyper is that you or is that me? Who's beeping? It might be me.

Okay. Many, hyper localized podcasts that will be thriving because local communities will support it, whether they're supporting it with donations or I can certainly see if I'm here in Fredericksburg and, you know, I have if I have 600 people listening, and there's 600 people that matter, I'm pretty sure Vaudeville down the street is gonna say, you know, why don't you do an ad for me? You know? And I'll do it, and I'll go there and eat and tell

everybody what I thought about it. So, you know, it it seems like we can get back to that, and that's that's a big opportunity. But, also, people want to be a part of it. So you need and we need to go back to how do people interact, how do they get their voice heard. So whether that's a direct feedback on a chat, which you can read live, or even having people call in. I mean, we're we're going back to that. This is nothing is

new. It's all been done before. It's just a cycle, and we're coming around. And, luckily, we're able to do it because it's so you know, thanks to companies like I'll I'll give them that plug, although they've never even talked to me or ever sent me anything at all for free. It's outrageous. I've always purchased everything from them. I think they've made it very accessible for anyone to kinda get started.

You know, talk about the local thing. I was in the dentist office recently, and I didn't even know my local town still had a newspaper. And there there was one laying on the counter there. Of course, the dentist office says where you're gonna find it. Right? Three pages. A weekly three pages with what happened in high school and Right. And I'm thinking there's about 25,000 people maybe that that reaches and I'm thinking, wow. How and, of course,

no one reads a newspaper anymore. Not local for sure. So, you know, I think there is an opportunity and you know Rob Greenlee has been a big fan of local podcast for years. You've been waiting for it, Rob. So, you should be excited with Adam's Got Cook in here. Yeah. I I really kind of always felt this way that this is ultimately where we would head once we reached a certain saturation point of podcast listeners, right, that this would unlock.

And I thought it was interesting not to draw kind of a political slant to what's happening here, but I did notice that George Soros purchased 220, local radio stations here in the last week or so, which I thought was a little bit counter to what a lot of people, would would expect. Right? And I think it was really, really interesting. I think he bought it from Odysee, I think was the was the

network. And it does kinda point to maybe a little bit of what you're talking about here, Adam, is that is that the the network is shifting, to driving local communications more and not so much, exclusively these these national syndicated kind of kind of, content on the radio. So this is kind of a a a radio play that may be playing out. And I do I mean, how do

you see it playing out? I mean, if you think about what George Soros did, which is seems contrary to where most of the investors are putting money, Actually, they're pulling out of syndicated radio not putting money in. Right? So is there a contrary kind of view on this? And it sounds like you're kind of, you know, doing that. First, the headline is George Soros buys 200 radio stations. Okay. That's not exactly the story. It's not? Okay. Good. The Soros, Soros hedge fund, which as far as I

know is really now run by Alex. George is barely alive, so we could probably, you know, leave him to he doesn't need to be the boogeyman anymore. It's Alex, who's probably worse. But they bought up Odysee's debt. So they bought up $400,000,000 worth of debt. So they they collectively now, I think, control 40% of the shares. That doesn't mean that you immediately have control over the programming or that, you know, some evil Soros genius is saying they go, stroking the white pussy.

And now we will make it all liberal content. Alright. I think it's probably one of I mean, there will be money in in radio stations still for years to come, just like there would still be money in cable. But if you look at the the, and I'd happen to know these numbers, the average age of, and these are mainly AM stations, a lot, not all, but a lot of them. The average age is 74, and they are going to ride their audiences

into heaven. So, yeah, it's probably a good deal on paper because you can squeeze some money out of it. I think, if anything, they'll probably sell off bits and pieces of it. But, you know, even the the church ladies text group, you know, like, oh my god. Yo. Hair on fire. Soros is going to control the airwaves. You know? No. The today's millennials and Zoomers are not listening to the radio at all At all. At all.

And, they're listening to podcasts. They're, you know, they're getting their media from other places. If anything, they're kind of turning away from some of that as well. The the real places, you need to be in everyone's text groups. That's that's where all the real communication takes place. So this is a typical, you know, buy up the debt cheap, and, you know, there's gonna be a restructuring, so they're gonna have to sell off stations.

It's not like he bought the stations, and right away, it's gonna be Rachel Maddow 247. That's just not the case here. Yeah. So probably what what they'll do is find somebody else to sell it to at a margin, probably. Right? I think they'll sell off the pieces. They'll sell off different stations. That that's I mean, it's it's chapter 11, so,

they're in restructuring. So it has to be restructured, you know, but if you can buy up that debt at 50¢ on a dollar or lower but they don't have a controlling interest, and so that doesn't mean that I I what I haven't seen is and they brought in this incredibly smart radio guy, and he's gonna turn it all around because no one has been able to do that. They haven't been able to do it with Iheart. They can't do it anywhere. I mean, it's just

it's not a viable business anymore. It's too expensive to run transmitters. You know, that was when we first started podcasting. Transmitters? We don't need no stinking transmitters. That was the whole point of it. And, you know, you just can't the genie's out of the box. You know? People are have connected their phones to their car systems, and they're listening to other content. You know, when it it the handwriting on was on the wall even when we just started podcasting.

You know? It probably for me, it was biggest realization was is when my kids are when my kids were still kids and they're in the back seat and they both have mobile devices and they're plugged in and dad's got something on Bluetooth and they're not listening to what I'm listening and they're listening to their own thing. I'm like, radio is doomed. And media is doomed because media has changed. You know, that was 16, 17 years ago.

So now, you know, of course, we all know that, my grown children are not on a radio. They're they don't have a TV subscription. Matter of fact, they're mad because we can't family share Hulu no more. You know? So that's the kind of thing that and, you know, that they they worry about now is, like, you kinda can't afford all my subscriptions to the stuff that I want.

And so what are they reverting to? Well, I can't share Hulu, so now I'm just gonna go and watch YouTube, or I'm gonna go on TikTok or so they're consuming stuff differently, and that's just gonna continue. So Well, also, that that brings up another point. The with the, with the fading out of radio, you are also removing the scarcity, issue. So in you know, on radio, you have 24 hours a day. You've got, you know, 12 to 20 minutes an hour of advertising.

And when that's full, it's full. And the only thing that can happen is either expand it more or you raise the prices. With podcasting, just as with, you know, web banners back in the day, there's unlimited inventory. So dynamically inserted ads, pre rolls, post rolls, all of that will eventually just go down to 0. The only scarcity you can still create is how many host reads someone is willing to do inside the body of the content. Right. That's that's your only scarcity, and

that's going to be very limited. And I think you you will actually be able to drive up that CPM over time, but it'll not be based upon downloads. It'll have to be based upon downloads. It'll have to be based upon PI or per inquiry of, you know, actually, when pod show was very successful for a short while, and that short while is when we had, coupon codes, promo codes.

So it would be, you know, rock and roll geek would be use geek 4 and get your go because we had GoDaddy in in the early days too, then get your GoDaddy domain. We actually started that with them because they understood that really well, and they were ramping up a business so fast. Unfortunately, what happened there is these hosts of these shows became very proficient at SEO, and and no one was getting the codes from their show. They were getting it by googling stuff, and then, oh Yeah.

This is the scam, and I'll expose it right here. That's how it works. We've talked about it on here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's going to have to be some other mechanism. Like, maybe that's not even here yet, although I think chapters and chapter links within chapters is an interesting way to do that. But it's still going to be

partially the endorsement by the host. Like, you know, I'm saying that I go here, and I probably should go there, or I should be using that product, which limits, you know, what what products and services. And, also, you know, the advertising is always censorship. So, most advertisers don't like controversy. So, again, it's it's a very tough fit, but the the actual mechanics of, of scarcity are gone with the Internet. It it just doesn't exist. How much inventory do you want?

We'll make more. Right. You know, it's what's funny, Adam, is, speaking with GoDaddy, when they came to me and said, hey. We think you should have a landing page for GoDaddy. I'm like, sure. So I put up a landing page on my website, and little did I know, about few years later, All Become that became a, a snippet on Google search. I had a great year that year. I mean, I I did. I mean, I had a I did. I had a really good year. I mean, like Yeah. To the

point of embarrassment, good. But when that snippet went away, so did the good times. The good times were over and went back down. But at the same point, we set up a system because GoDaddy knew that that traffic was still hitting that landing page and, and getting those codes. That's no secret. And I was watching the page rank on where that was falling in search. Still today, as long as I meet my numbers, they don't care where it comes from.

And so what they're really paying even still to this day is they are definitely paying for that landing page to be there to to get people to use those codes on their site. So there's no secret about it. They knew that was happening because, you know, how can I do years of GoDaddy ads every show and still sell to new yeah? We have some podcast listeners that grab codes, but it's probably, like, 90 10. Probably 90% from the page, 10% from the

show at this point. Sure. So, you know, that's that's that's a given, but, you know, that was that was a very, very good year that year. I got that snippet in Google, but, and everybody knows that game. So Mhmm. Yeah. But the Doctor codes, you know and here's another thing too that work, but still won't be done. And we've been talking to people, like, they got these 500 shows that will make a great one deal. And I know we don't wanna talk about advertising. I wanna use one promo code for all

500 shows and they won't do it. You know, it's like the 3 Musketeers, one for all. Right? Basically, we all we all live and die together and, they won't do it. They wanna they wanna cherry pick the shows they're really performing. Little do they know the collective total number of reads using the same promo code is gonna really be successful, but you can't teach them nothing. They they know everything.

So meanwhile, 90% of podcasters of the 35% that still want advertising are never gonna get it, not until something changes. So Well, nothing's gonna change in that regard. Yeah. Nothing's gonna change. No. It's not gonna get Hasn't changed for 20 years. You know, downloads are a horrible metric. Everybody knows it. You know, it's it's kinda it it's still you know, with the big promise of advertising, which I've heard for many years, we'll get the right ad to the

right person exactly the right time. Podcasting can't be a part of that ecosystem at all. TikTok works pretty good. So people still know that half their advertising money works, and they don't know which half. I mean, that that's still the same. Yeah. You know, you you spoke about RODE here earlier, and we didn't really have it in the list, but RODE announced their RODE streamer today.

You know, it's kinda funny. If people saw what was on the other side of this, their wallets would would, you know, it it it's not a pretty situation money wise, but I made this investment long time ago and I got all this gear. Essentially, the box that I have that was really probably, you know, I got some upgrades. It didn't cost me as much, but maybe $35,000 worth of gear is now in a box at 1195. We'll do everything that the box I have right down here.

And it's been that way for a while with a different tools, but it's amazing. This company that owns this now is that market that was selling to me is gone because soon as that machine goes belly up, you know, I'll I'll throw it in the junk pile. There's and there's an I'll I'll never come back to their company because of this change. So I think this new road streamer with no one not every no one's gonna need 6 cameras, but it could be a screen, 2 cameras,

you know, someone on Zoom. It's just, you know, it's a a mix of things that I think they're gonna hit. I think that what the Rodecaster did for podcasting is going to be the same for streamers, those that stream. Yeah. Yeah, Todd. And to be clear, that's 11 100 and Yeah. 119. $1,206.95. Yeah. That would be a steal. But most people didn't know they had a little streamer box already that I've I've had for more than a year that I played with. It's kinda

cool. They just took it and went you know, they expanded it and took everything. Say, you know, I it came out yesterday. I immediately went to the user guide and looked at everything, and, I get, user guide and looked at everything, and, I get immediate gadget envy. I'm like, if I was to build something that would do this, this is exactly what I'd do. Absolutely. Just like the Rodecaster, the Rodecaster Pro 2, I will say, that

finally hit Yep. All of the marks. And it is exactly what I would in fact, I tried to build it, couldn't make it work cost wise. It it's fantastic. And I for a moment there, I even had the, like, well, you know, we could I could do no agenda, and and I thought, you know Yeah. Come on. Join us. Book. Come on. Not every book needs to be a movie. Come on. No. No. I just it was just pure envy. I'm like, oh, man. I gotta set up cameras

and switch. It does a lot of interesting stuff with the auto switching, and it basically has a whole RodeCaster Pro built into it. Fabulous. I I wonder actually how well it will do. I'm glad they did it. I'll let you know in about a week. My Oh, so you're in a month. My B and H rep says, Todd this was the the subject of the email. Todd, you need to check this out. And I had already read it in pod podcasting news, you know, from article, and then

this popped in from B&H. I'm like, oh, there goes $1195 plus tax. So it'll be here on Friday. I'm gonna take it with me to the Philippines. Fantastic. I'm sure it is. I'm sure it's great. But Or it'll be not right now, but after 5 updates, it might be great. You know? And and I'll just get into it so we can get it out of the way because, of course, we have to have the video conversation because That's where I was just about to go at. Show after all.

I understand the obsession of audiences wanting to see how something is made, because for years, you could really only listen to radio. Again, not every book needs to be a movie. I really am a firm believer that it's much more exciting to listen to something and imagine or have your own mind's eye, your own mind view of what the people look like, what they're wearing, what they're doing, what their situation is. It it has always had longevity. You can multitask.

I'm quite sure that most YouTube videos, unless they're instructional, I mean, I watch YouTube videos for all kinds of stuff, like, mainly airplanes I can't afford. Like, oh, there's a it's only a $150. Look how fast it goes. Moving vicariously through the screen. Screen. Top 5 turbine airplanes you can't afford. Okay. And, of course, and or if I you know, for instructional stuff is fantastic or looking at, you know,

older television shows. Oh, there's all kinds of stuff that's good for, but I think interview shows, I I can see the appeal of, being able to watch. I just don't think it's all that, all I don't think it's quite as desirable as people think that it is Mhmm. Or that the advertising industrial complex wants you to believe it is. It's inherently dangerous to build your audience on any kind of platform, you know, not my monkey, not my

circus. You know? It's like, oh, so it's it's none of that's a good idea. It goes against the entire concept of of RSS. And, there is, of course, a universe of TikTok videos and, and YouTube, but it's a very different type of experience. And I'm not at all concerned about this incessant need to go to video other than ad and it was kind of fun to watch James Cridland say it out loud the other day in pod news. Like, what? Wait a minute. They this they only care about the money for

tracking ads and all that stuff. It's not about actually people wanting video, and it's not. I mean, 17 years of 2 old dudes who are not really appealing to watch on on video. Although, I I understand because I when I first saw radio shows, morning shows, set up webcams, I'm like, I really don't see the appeal. But there is an appeal. People have been listening for years years, and now they wanna

see and what do they look like. It's kind of like seeing how the sausage is made, but it's really not necessary. And, you know, not we saw this with MTV. People still listen to music. We don't need to have the music video all the time. It's just not true. Music is music, and people like listening to music. Does everyone have to have a video? Well, kind of for promotional purposes, but it's still it's not the premier way that people listen to music. They listen to music.

Well, it you know, and it's also much harder. It's just like in my show the other night, I gave them 5 minutes of a of a black screen, and I didn't realize it was a black screen till I looked over my head. Just you, Todd. No one else has these problems. So, you know, it's just like you you do one of these chits and, you know, you're live. What can you do? And you just laugh it off and continue on. I just think that, well, I'll transition.

Yeah. There there are realizations in the space that Spotify's got an angle right now that they're using and it's be you know, in in YouTube is they've got an angle, and it's and it's appealing angle to those that think they want to do video. I think there's also a realization.

I'm just you know, I would just say based upon conversations I've had, I think that there's a realization over, you know, at the big Mac, Mac office in the sky that they they probably kind of, you know, missed the boat when it comes to video, and you will see what they do about that. Nothing. They screwed over people so bad with Final Cut. They screwed over the professional and prosumer market with their USB shenanigans years ago. I left I I wasn't an Apple guy from the Apple 2.

I loved Macs. I love my Macs, and they just I couldn't make it work anymore. You know? And they had the FireWire and all this nonsense. Well And it it but the USB mess up they made about Mhmm. I wanna say maybe 7, 8 years ago, it made me go away, maybe go to Windows. Now, of course, they're all in cahoots with the device makers, so, you know, no one makes drivers for Linux because, you know, once once you have that on Linux, then there's no incentive to upgrade anymore. You

can't break it. You know, Apple is about to break all of the older devices. Everyone's gonna have to upgrade all their pro gear to whatever new system they're coming up with, you know, just like they did by removing the headphone jack. Well, that's how they that's how they sell cool. That's how they sell more gear, but I'm kinda referencing, you know, we'll see what Apple Podcasts does. And I know that there are lots of Nothing. What do you mean? Well, give them 2 years. What

do you mean? What do you mean? What are they gonna do? Well, you know, I I my hope is I'll just say my hope surface the video that's in their catalog. Just say my hope is that they'll quit making video as second class citizen. Well, I hope I hope they start focusing on video all the time so that some of these new podcast apps can take away their business because Yeah. People want look. NPR doesn't have video of every single one of their shows.

They were. ABC doesn't have video of every single one of their shows. Why? Because they're audio shows. Yeah. And and they're good, and it's quality, and people like it, and they listen to it. Doesn't have to be video. So if Spotify is stealing It's stealing people's livelihood with their whole video system, because once you upload video, then your audio no longer counts. You don't have the, you don't have the, the pass through of the statistics.

And I'm just presuming they can add in ads or do whatever they want because you need to sign a contract to be on their platform, which is why none of my shows are there. I refuse. And you know what? Hasn't hurt me. But don't, you know, don't get me wrong. You know, obviously, right now at this very second, there are a handful of new podcast apps at podcastapps.com where you can watch, if you want to, this show live on video in a podcast

app. So and maybe that's where we transition to the podcasting 2 point o discussion. But I also have to recognize and in my position as a hosting provider that Apple still has 50% of the listening audience. And I have to make sure that I'm vocalizing to them where their issue is and I've done that very distinctly and, you know, and having other discussions about things that I think they should improve, specifically trying to adopt some of the stuff that's in podcasting 2 point o. I'd love

them to adopt everything. They never will. They're too slow. Doesn't work that way over there. He gets decision by committee. They're very secretive. You know, it's I call it contractor speed. Oh, that's interesting. You know, those types of discussion. Meanwhile, everyone else were moving quickly and running with scissors as as the term is in podcasting 2.9. I love it. I think we've still have a long way to go in educating podcasters on this value.

Because if we could get everyone on the same team and tell our audiences, you know, there's this new experience over here that's not the same as it was before. It's not just click play and put the phone in your First of all, these things take time. It's true. I mean, the the main thing I'd like to see now is I'd like to see podcast apps make use of the funding tag Yeah.

And display that more prominently because, you know, just removing the steps of going to a website or going to Patreon or going to PayPal or whatever it is, just having a click here to donate and, you know, make it clear to donate to the show maybe with words, instead of, you know, something that's buried deep. I'm looking at you, podcast guru. That would help the, the streaming SATs and boosts and boostograms.

We're now in the process of about to Dave Jones and I have really been working pretty hard on getting a couple companies to make it very simple. And the main thing is for, app developers. App developers, you know, they're trying to make good apps And, to implement all kinds of, you know, things, with wallets is complicated. So we're looking at something as simple as an OAuth connection so you'd be able to connect, Zebedee. You'll be able to connect, Strike.

There is some pretty, decent information in the market that PayPal is going to be enabling Bitcoin send and receive straight from Fiat. So, you know, there will always be an element of, Bitcoin, like, we've gotta be in Sats. We've gotta be, you know, we've gotta be, whatever it is. But, ultimately, if you just say, you know, connect your bank to this app like you do Venmo or Cash App or whatever. Yep. And then just send, you know, a dollar or $10 or a $100.

The fact that it runs through the Lightning Network and can be divided into very small payments, is just a benefit that no one really has to know about. So, like like Bitcoin itself, this is very, very early. It'll never work with Fiat. You know, you just you can't do it with the fees and all these hassles. But having podcast apps through an intermediary functioning pretty much like Venmo, that's on the way.

Yeah. That's coming. And that you know, we'll see it we'll see the integration happening in the next couple of weeks, and it'll really start to roll out broader, as more people learn about it, and it becomes easier. And, ultimately, it's the podcasters. The podcasters have to tell their audiences what they want them to do. It's that simple. Yeah. That's a good transition here, Adam, about, you know, how to manage your community. Right? And to foster these kind kind of things.

And then You gotta threaten them constantly. Right. Right. And how to actually do that in the context of what's happening. This is a very evolving kind of methodology that you're talking about, but it does dovetail to what you're talking about, about building these niche communities and building support from the the community and the individuals that are in the community,

and less less dependent on advertising. Right? I I think, ultimately, that's kind of where where the the trends are moving towards is I'm not sure that advertising as we know it today is going to survive. I think it will. I think some fundamental changes have to take place. Okay. I see a future for brands to create their own networks. Right. I'm kind of waiting for that to happen where a dog dog food brand has a network of dog podcasts.

And they work with them in close collaboration, not just throwing host reads out there, but, you know, there's a lot of things you can do from a brand perspective, and it'll take some investment. But I think that's a a distinct possibility. And we need to sadly, I think we just need to remove advertising agencies. They're really the Oh, they're the bottleneck. They're really a big bottleneck in this process.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And to some degree, we've seen that, Adam, to a certain degree too with the brands taking on creator type of partnerships or But that's usually done through an agency. Right. Well, I mean, like, my my contract that I had with StreamYard is an example of that. I created a show on their channels in support of them.

But I think what you're talking about, Adam, is maybe creating kind of a network of shows that isn't necessarily tied specifically to them, but is more independent but has an alliance with them somehow? Is that what you're Yeah. Talking about? You know, I I see it kind of like, almost like an MLM, but more like, you know, Avon, you know, where there there is an affiliation. I'm not sure exactly, but some, you know, marketers are people who have product

know their audience. They know how to reach them, and they're smart. I I'll never, underestimate how smart marketing people are within brands, because they really do know what works. Because they're always testing stuff. Right? Yeah. I mean, that that's their job. You know? Usually, they start pretty small and they know who buys their sneakers and they expand that. And then, you know, in general, we're going to see a disintermediation of middle management in the world. It's time for that to

happen. We have middle mid level managers creating memos with ChatGPT and mid level managers on the other end taking that, putting it through ChatGPT to get the synopsis. I mean, this this is the insanity that we've gotten down to. Everything has to streamline. So so to the advertising industry, I think it's it's time for a rewrite of the rules, and and that'll happen. But what's not gonna happen is podcasting is not going to deliver any data to you, of any value. It's just not.

Can you can you, create scenarios where people actually buy product? Yes. I think you can. But that's gonna take a deeper integration with the programs, and the people who create those those programs beyond, you know, just here's my downloads or even here's my code. It's gonna take a much deeper level of integration, but I think it can work. But it won't be as measurable as people like. We're still living in the CPM world of television and, you know, and the,

and diaries for radio. I mean, it's it's it's an old fashioned world and someone will come up with it. It won't be me. You know, the the whole model now, you know, if if you think about what YouTube and Spotify have done, it's really it's just a marketing ploy because they they're taking all that content. They're not giving anything back. They're getting all the analysis on those listeners. They're reselling to them. They're selling that data downstream. This is and that's where the money's at.

It's in the is in the bodies and the information. And while they'll always have that because they have the the app Scale. That tracks the client, the login, and you've already greened the terms of service. I think there's a an opportunity and something I've been looking at and I really can't go into too much detail. I hope, Adam, you may be getting briefed by

the individual soon. I don't know if he's reached out to you to give you a a a demo, but I think we can take, take back the the information. In other words, those that you trust. What are you talking about? Well, I don't No one gives me any secret demos. I mean, you know NDA. Is there any no an embargo. They know me. They're not gonna tell me anything. They they will, and there's no NDA on this. It's, What what what exactly

are you talking about? It's just basically we you as you as a podcaster, being you're a techie, you can have a opportunity to obscure the IP data going downstream, from your content media and still Yes. You own your IP is what you're talking about. Right. Yeah. And and if and if you trust your hosting provider to obscure that data and not sell it, your your hosting provider might be able to do that too. I don't quite understand. And with IP, you mean intellectual property? No. I'm

talking about IPs. You know, 192 dot166. Listeners. Yeah. The IP data of the listeners. Or viewers. Yeah. Well, so what are you saying? That that's gonna go away? Because if No. No. But if if you would have the opportunity to if you wanted to to take a piece of code and basically put it in front of your data And basically, the media gets served out, and it just obscures all of your information about who that listener actually is. And you can do that on your own. Sounds like a big pain in

the butt. Not big. About that about that. I don't wanna I don't wanna do any of that. I'm a podcaster. I don't care. I don't care. I think the main thing is is If people don't want my content, don't support it. If you like it, support it. It's that simple. No. What we're talking about is the people on the other end taking that data and then remarketing to your listeners and Selling Selling. The data about your audience. Now if you are on an app that says, hey,

we protect. We don't we don't resell. None of that is needed. If if you if all the apps out there will say, listen. We we don't resell to any we don't take any of this data that we're collecting and use that to our monetary advantage and and basically trust the privacy of the listener, then this none of this is needed. But I hate to say it. I don't think that's the case in a lot of instances. You know, there's no there's one reason why Spotify bought Charbon pod sites. One reason.

And they bought them on the same day. It's for all that data, all that listener data. And, so it shows really what data do they really have? What data do you really get? A lot. And they use that they take that data, and they use another system on top of it. And, you know, they know who you are down down to down to your address. Right. But but that you know, you can use that data broker for that. I mean, all of that. All that's well known. Yeah. But I don't think I don't think people

think about it. But in the end, there's maybe a way. That's just one little piece of everything that's going on here. Some people don't care, and that's fine if you don't like that. Gotta serve him a crappy ad, I guess. Well, you gotta serve him still got You gotta serve him. I'll give that person oh, it's Adam Curry. He's listening. He's interested in airplanes. He can't afford. I'm gonna give him an ad for an airplane he can't afford. Right at this very moment, here it comes. Success.

Yeah. Yeah. Well and also they're capturing data about shows too. Yeah. And so they can actually actively recruit those shows to maybe join their network. Yeah. So, again, that's a that's that's a business plan and How about this? I got a show about dog food. Okay. I'm a dog food company. Hey. You probably have people that are interested in my product. Way to go. Connection made. That's right.

Right. Yeah. And You know, if you're just talking about politics, you know, no. No one's gonna be interested because it's too controversial. We don't wanna be a part of that. We we want control. Marketers want control. No. They do. They want control. Yeah. So And they want more and more data, and it's ridiculous. I'm more I'm more interested in I've been talking about this a lot. I would love to see some new podcast apps that are opinionated, that are a platform A vertical. For

yeah. You could call it a vertical. I see it more as a I I use the example of Rachel Maddow because she was very clear about podcast apps in a recent, it was Hollywood Reporter Yeah. I see. Interview. And she said, I don't understand the apps. How come they're not recommending stuff and based on merit, etcetera? Now she's not talking about, you know, recommending Tucker Carlson to people who are watching her or listening to her podcast. So what she wants is she wants Rachel's

war the world. Right. And I would like to see apps that are opinionated, and promote you can still get whatever you want on that app, but why not have something where you open it up and delight them? Like, oh, I'm in the airplanes. You know, this is my whole airplane podcast that's recommending things. I might use multiple apps in that why not? I use different apps for different things. Doesn't have to be you know, we're still kind of stuck in this, I've gotta be the app for all

things. Well, you're just an inbox. You know? You're not really impressive. It's just it's just an inbox with some features that I may happen to like. There's a there's a bottom line level of features a podcast app has to have, you know, things that Google still can't seem to figure out with their Google Podcasts on YouTube. There's some very basic things that it has to have. Once you have that, now what

are you doing? Well, how about I'm opinionated, and I'm going to, going to create this world and any podcast within this realm that I'm interested in, be it a particular sport or type of business, that I'm going to create a place where, that's all promoted and the best stuff does come to the top and give me some interactive features so I can talk to other people who are interested in this particular topic.

That is the kind of thing I think we need, and, and no one has really stepped up to the plate yet, but I'll keep hammering at it. You know, I'm not an app developer at all. We don't we haven't built an app. I don't want to. It's very expensive. Well, I have one app we maintain and, you know, that's a bottom line every year. But why not? We the current apps could do this. They could say, what is your topic preference? And if it's sports, click sports. And then What I'm saying is

forget that. You know, that's genres. Yeah. What do you know about? I'm an app developer. I have I have some interest in something. Yeah. Do that. Something you really know something about. Maybe it's just about technology. Maybe it's okay. Make it simple. Maybe it's about PHP programming. Mhmm. Whatever it is, and curate that and and and make it something that's delightful to people.

You know, you'll get more people who will value your app and will, I believe, support you monetarily to keep it up than just a plain old inbox that, okay, I can so I can sort it by genre. Here's another list. Here's another list, and here's another list. You know, people are so hung up on not

using their users' data. Use your users' data to give them more of what they want, but it really only works if you're doing it in a specific area because it's just you know, we can't all afford big servers in the background running, analyzing every single user. Go after one particular group. That's right there, Rachel Maddow is saying, I want this. Give it to her. That was the goal of what we did with my cast, but we'd made it so that the individual could

curate their list. It was no different than just having a custom RSS feed. So nothing fancy there. But it would be it would be nice though to maybe and of course, I don't know if you want to tie it back to RSS because it's not a user experience. It would be great. But maybe have an app that would morph that RSS feed could morph Well on what was recommended. You know, there's 20 ways to spin this, but,

Yeah. Because I don't think you wanna have a an environment where you have to have, you know, like, a 1000000 different apps Yeah. Out there for every topic or Although, I would love I would love it. I would love a check app. 100,000,000 apps. Why not? Sure. That's true. It's kind of a bottleneck with these big, tech companies, though, right now, right, of actually getting published and getting them approved. Then just do 1. Do 1.

Right. And then have, like Todd said, have it morph into being that specialized app based on the user. Right? No. I think that's too hard. Is that what you're talking about? No. I think it's too hard because you're not going to delight every do something that you know about. Create an app that highlights things that you you as a developer know about or whoever you're working with. Do one thing and do it really well. You know? Just one sport. Prick one sport.

We're good. It's not a single topic you can't think of that there aren't thousands of people. Like, oh, this podcast app, this does only political left leaning political content like Rachel Maddow. In fact, we promote Rachel Maddow every every single time. And on here's all of our other NBC buddies. And here, you can get in here and talk about things, you know, and talk about your Rachel

Maddow world. That's what I'm talking about. And maybe do it for show in that genre, give them an opportunity to have a world, but give the podcasters a reason to say use this app instead of, I just like this app because it does, you know, 1.5 speed nicely. Or it's Yeah. Or Todd can say, hey. By the way, go use this app because it is full of shows that I love and and trust or whatever that word may be. You know? Especially point of view. That's like Tom Webster.

So, Adam, talk about the whole trend that's going on around content moderation, brand safety, and suitability platforms getting involved in podcasting. Do you have the thoughts on it? Yeah. It's death, so stay away from it. Use modern podcast apps. Make sure your podcast is on podcast index. We've never removed anything with any legal takedown. I think we've had maybe one DMCA request, one Mhmm. Which was a private feed, and we try to keep them out anyway. That's it.

Put your put your feed in in a place that is going to be safe and will not be deleted, and tell your users to use a podcast app that doesn't delete stuff. That's it. And everything else is just it's all for money. It's all for monetization purposes. That's what it's all about. And, of course, advertising is censorship. It always is. Whether you're just self censoring to not talk about the other dog food, it's still censorship. Here here's a here's a email It's not a trend

that's been around forever. I mean, it's just now it's just being a little more automated. And and by the way, it happens everywhere. It happens on on x, on the so called free speech platform. It's not true. Here's the This stuff gets deleted all the time. Here's the 4th email of the day that I received. It says no reply. We've removed the following episode of your podcast from beep because our automatic review tools determine they appear to violate beep's policy.

Beep beep beep beep. And this turns out to be a, a Christian show and it probably had a some church music in there. And so they removed the episode for church music. So, you know, obviously, some some platforms have a policy of no music in podcast and this is just a regular thing that happens. Now this week, it's music. Last week, it was another topic. The week before, it was another topic.

But people just don't realize that, there are a lot of content being taken down, at least on one specific platform. Do you think it's coincidence that I rail about x and all of a sudden your Starlink starts to stutter a little bit? This is Well, start That's some serious AI going on there. Knock on knock on wood here. We're still online, I think. I'm looking at it. The stream is not buffering on, on the receiver sites. We're still good, but Zoom definitely was an issue.

But, you know, I I I don't think people realize how much censorship or removal of content for terms of service, which they're allowed to do because that's the terms of service said there will be no music in your podcast. And you've chosen to put music in your podcast and you didn't read the the 82 pages of terms of service anyway. This is where we go back to what you're referring to, Adam, is until you get a DMCA takedown,

you're you're good to go. You your content, on Podcast Index and in the, you know, there's there's none of this happening. You know, I can count on 2 hands probably the number of DMC takedowns we've received internally in probably the past 10 years. And it's usually for something very, very valid. You know, paint playing Taylor Swift or something like that in your show is probably not advisable. She has very aggressive lawyers.

The but again, when it comes to non copyright stuff, there's still stuff being removed on these platforms on a on a weekly basis that is either too far right or too far left. Everything in the middle is okay, but if you're too far right or too far left, you know, and don't mention certain words because you're automatically bounced. Yeah. Like assassination, pedophile, all this stuff. Right. Yeah. Sorry. You just got thrown off of YouTube. Sorry. So and it could happen. They could cut

the stream. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because they have, algorithms that are running against this or AI that's picking up keywords and and filtering it automated wise. So it can be almost real time Yeah. When they do this. Right? Facebook has done me a few times. I've said something and then popped out. So it's, you know, it's it's it just goes with the territory. No. The yeah. I here's

all these platforms, particularly the social networks. Here's my dream, and I I'm changing my stance on AI, which I think is a is a total penard. And, you know, we're going to go into a a huge a huge blow up of this nonsense because, you know, I'm hearing I'm hearing numbers being thrown out there like Anthropic's API costs 36¢ per API call. Right. You know, it's like, there is no way you can make this money back. And it's also just not that good.

I I really would like as much, AI generated content, which is really CGI, computer generated imagery, computer generated, video and audio. I really want as much of it as possible to flood as many social networks as possible. I want it on Reddit. I want it on x. I want it on YouTube. I want it on Instagram. I want it on TikTok. So these these AI models start to ingest that, and then they just go haywire.

And the only way for these companies to keep up is by going broke, by getting more humans to input human content. I want them all to go out of business and broke. They are all the devil's playground. They are not healthy. They are not good. They are not useful. They are lame. And I just like to go back to, you know, just an Internet where we can connect with each other, some simple way to subscribe. Blogs will be fine. Microblogging will be fine.

These platforms have no future, particularly with the amount of, of, algorithm generated content that is being made. It's going to devolve into complete well, let's talk about the dead Internet. We're already there. We're we're already interacting with things that are completely generated that aren't real, accounts that aren't real. And all I can see from you know, I have a 34 year old, a 29 year old, and a 27 year old. They will may they keep they keep uninstalling TikTok.

They'll install it. They'll go down the hole. They wake up at 4 in the morning, uninstall it like this thing is bad for me. Text groups is what they use. That's how they communicate. They have one private, maybe a private Instagram or private Twitter account to talk to each other. They're withdrawing from the process. It's only middle aged people who are still on these systems feeding it and find it important. And once that goes, then all the cable news they'll have no

outlet. No one's watching them. Just the clips are showing up on social media. So Right. It'll take 10 years maybe, but I can't wait for just all to go to crap, and then Wall Street will come up with, you know, a new you know, be it'll be quantum computing. Oh, yes. We have to invest in quantum computing. That's gonna be the new thing. Because this is it's real and and and I will say, props to Zuckerberg.

I love that he has just taken a whole different, approach and said, no. We're creating the llama models. We're putting them out open source. Do with it what you will. And I use the llama model on my start 9. There's something like, build me a web page and embed this code. It does that pretty well. I mean, stuff like that. Find me scripture, from the New Testament that has this topic. It does that pretty well. Not much else. Everything else is kind of disappointing or

no. It's disappointing. I I think what's really gonna ultimately happen we can we can debate what's gonna happen in the next couple of years, but what's really gonna happen, what's already happening is that, Google can't afford to allow LOM's AGI or whatever to exist in the state on google.com because all of a sudden, the only way you get found well, the only way Blueberry gets found is I either have to write a check on SEM, which maybe that's what they're hoping for,

or the language model you got lucky enough for them to recommend you, because no longer will you be found in search. Search is ultimately gonna change, and that is going to destroy what what little what little can still be found today when you're trying to find a local business. You know, and if Facebook makes a logarithm change, that'll be gone. So businesses are the ones that are in deep, deep, deep trouble. Your creators are too. They'll all be advertising on the local podcast

that I'm saying. Well, then the that might be the model because it I I go back to what I've said on this show before. Say what you a about YouTube and say what you will about TikTok, but at least you know when you're watching at least till today, you when you watch something on YouTube, but don't don't get on one of those, you know, voice generated ones that are crap. But what you listen to on a podcast and what you watch on YouTube, if you know that it's not AI generated,

can be trusted. Now the question is when does that line match up? I don't know. But, you know, I think that at some point, we need a flag. Of course, you know, who who's gonna honor the flag that says, hey. This was this was created by real people, you know, you know, with with, organ matter between their ears, versus, a CHAD GPT script. They're already putting, links into output now. So Of course. I don't think it's out of the range of possibility that

sponsored links will continue. It's just they haven't migrated into AI yet because they don't wanna ruin it, too soon. Right? It's going to get ruined. Yeah. It will. It is inevitable. It is inevitable. I mean, people are posting the output of chat chat gpt into Twitter or x and onto Reddit. That's getting sucked up again. And and we I just feedback loop is what it's gonna turn out to be. Right? Well, it's like making a copy of a copy.

Yeah. That's true. I I did an experiment on, the no agenda show where, comic strip blogger took our episode 1690 6, and he ran it through notebook lm and came up with the deep dive podcast of these 2 AI voices. They do then an 8 minute summary of what the show was about. And I then took the transcript of that and put it back into note lm, and it started coming at you know, because the topic was about the

exploding pages in Lebanon. And the second iteration, the second copy, basically, they're already talking about exploding Walkmans. So so, you know, what will the 3rd generation do? I don't know. Your shoes gonna explode. It lost all context almost immediately. So it was like it's like, no. No. No. This is this is completely Yeah. It's it can't they cannot filter it out. They can't do it. So I want to stop the engine from what's the what's the stop the engine from going to that audio

clip and then ingesting that back? And you you're right. It will. It will. And and and that's what happens. That's just how systems work. You know, it's just going to ingest itself. And, you know, there's already $1,000,000,000 companies of humans making content, for the AI models and tagging it, etcetera.

And so, you know, if you look at, Apple Intelligence and you look at the prompts that they're using to go into the, you know, the the model, you know, just to create some video of your photos, it already has in there, do not make it political, racial, you know, sexist, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So it's all gonna be bland. It's all gonna be Yeah. Real. Nonsense. Real arts. If they don't, then the thing just that's what happened with Tay. Remember that bot that they had?

I think it was Google had Tay, and it was taking input from the the Internet. And then Oh, I think it was Microsoft, actually. Within 24 hours, it was a horrible racist, you know, misogynistic Nazi bot. And, you know, because it was it was it was just being fed, and it was feeding upon itself. It it it doesn't work. It doesn't work. So it's you know, Wall Street needed something after we had machine learning, blockchain, artificial intelligence. Wall Street needs a story. They need a

story. And, you know, it's no wonder that we're getting interesting graphics and videos because they're being built on chips from NVIDIA who are a graphics company. So, yeah, it can do that. That's what it was always doing, but we'll see how close it gets to anything really useful. Yeah. And again go ahead, Rob. Oh, and, you know, this is really a conversation about training data. Where does it get the training data? And I guess that's also They're buying it. They're buying it from Reddit.

They're buying it from x. They're buying it from the New York Times. Or from they're they're scrape they're scraping Geek News Central new media show, blueberry.com. That's kinda scary. They're grabbing it from everywhere, but there there there's also pathways for them to feed it misinformation too and lies and deception too. You know? No agenda show. Oh, is that what it is? Okay. You know, and that's one thing I've told my team is it's real easy to go

down this rabbit hole. You get a press release. Put it in chat g b team. You got yourself a new article. I told the team, no. No. No. No. We're not gonna do that. We're gonna stay original. We're gonna write original content. We're gonna try to ride that train as long as we can. I tell you, it's real tempting to be able to go from 15 articles or 20 articles a month to 15 a week. We could easily do that.

But like Adam said, gotta be you know, if you're just taking that and write a summary, are you really giving anything of value to, to a reader? No. You're just feeding Google and then ultimately, you're feeding the machine again. So we're gonna continue to do original content. Sure. I get create summaries from this show, from the transcript. That works real well. Sometimes, I'll say about Yeah. But they're gonna keep keep scooping all that information Of course. Make Yeah. Make the AI models,

even even better. Well, depends. If it's if it's AI generated content like Adam says, then, you know, how do they how do they prevent it from ingesting that's not original? I don't know if they can. Yeah. That's that's bigger brains than that working on it. So but I I I think there's a 5050 chance it just goes sideways and plats on itself. They're gonna go broke trying to make this work. It's just it I don't see any possibility in One laws of thermodynamics

I was even to to work. I was at a AI conference, and I was told that every chat and gbt request takes one bottle of water to cool the chip or chips that were used to get that query. So Yeah. We don't hear about that anymore in the, in the climate change conversation. No. Not at all. No. No. We don't hear about that. I wonder why. Because it's money, man. It's money. It's 100 of 1,000,000,000 of dollars and a a nickels coming out the other end. Emily says can't tell us

how they scrape our data. Well, it's very simple. They they hide their user agent. They download your they write they read your web page. They probably download your audio, make a transcript if you don't have one already. And they they enhance they gulp it in and do whatever they do with it. So Well, I'm sure that all this big social platforms are are selling that data to other platforms. Well, you hear about these deals all

the time. New York Times made a deal, you know, because they had lawyers enough to sue them to say you're gonna, you know, you're gonna I think they still have a lawsuit. But yeah. I don't know. We'll see where it goes. But I think real voices with real intention, with real stories, with, you know, common sense stuff. But, you know, here's the problem you're gonna run into, Adam.

All of a sudden, all your sources that you get for all your producers out there, all of a sudden, they're gonna start running into this crap and they're gonna be saying, hey, Adam. I saw this article and it what if it was AI generated? Then you gotta discern. You have to make the decision. Is this junk or is this real? And, you know, you're gonna have a harder time building your agenda for the show based making sure that you're not being fed bullshit.

Oh, we get fed bullcrap all the time and and, you know, the we've always received videos where it's just cut a little bit tight and like, oh, that's interesting. I wonder what the full context is. But the the the producers we have, they're sending firsthand, experience and experiential knowledge that's different than a news story. That's true. I mean, I don't need to spend but, you know, 10 minutes online to get the the stories of the day or whatever Right. People think is interesting.

Now what we do is we dissect and we deconstruct media, which is more fun because, you know, it's just easy to it's just more fun because you make fun of people. Yeah. Yeah. You make fun of idiots. So that's really what we do. We're not a news show. We don't try to be a news show, but we do and, specifically, we're probably more important now than ever to spin people down from you know, just like I've seen the story, and it's been repeated many times about Soros is buying the

radio station. Well, you just have to even read the articles to understand what is going on there. And, you know, that combined with some radio professionals who reached out to me and, you know, I can I can create a a pretty decent story of, you know, or analysis of what's really going on here? But just put Soros and you've got half of the country, you know, freaking out even though the guy's a zombie by now. You know? It's like, it's not even George

Soros anymore. Stop. Right. Before we run out of time, Adam, where you think podcasting is going? Also, we've got a lot stuff. We've done, what, 30 some new features, and I'm calling them features. We don't wanna get too technical and tell people tags because their eyes are gonna glaze over. We've got 30 some new features in RSS now. What excites you most about the stuff you and Dave have been talking about on what's coming next? What can we look forward to?

Well, as we discussed, I think specialized podcast players, local content, the combination of those 2, I'm pretty excited about it. If I can ever get Dvorak to complete his mission, you know, the by the way, this is, this is a the Curry 1 beta 3 dot 1. Oh, nice. I'm on the I'm on the list for the, gold copy. You get the gold version. Yeah. Absolutely. Gold version. Get rid of this thing here. Very very competitively priced. I wanna get a I wanna get gear into people's hands at a very low cost.

I love Audio Sigma. Thank you for introducing me to Fernando. Oh, he's a guy. It's just it's amazing. I I love what he's making. Me too. Hands down, it has better, sound and processing, easier to manage than the road. I mean, it's really, really outstanding. Doesn't have everything that I like because I've you know, we have a kind of complicated setup. But even with that, I could probably do the no agenda show. It it's really you

know? And the the price points are are coming down to where, you know, you can really, get things into people's hands. I just want more. You know, I'd like to get people doing more flip a switch, go live. I think that has a big future in, in podcasting. That's pretty much also what,

what the Roadcaster video is saying. It's saying, you know, stop with all these ISOs and creating timeline with, you know, 10 different sources and switching, and, you know, let's stop with the editing out the uhs and the umms. Please stop using AI to do all that. Just be authentic voices. People people will, will migrate towards authenticity. I see your little fancy switcher. People will migrate towards authenticity every single time.

And for content they really want, they will beg, steal, borrow, do whatever they have to do to get it, including listening to crap audio, on a web page if that's all they can do. So we can make things easier. We have all the technology. I believe that RSS will be with us until we're no longer here. It's a great distribution mechanism. Not great for the advertising industry as, as it envisions itself now, and I'm not trying to I've given up on trying to shoehorn that into anything.

You know, it's fantastic. I hope that, our hosting companies stay in business for a long, long time. By the way, thank you, both of you, and Blueberry and the boys and girls there and all the other hosting companies. I could mention them all, but they've all contributed. They have really kept the podcast index project running, with some runway should everything keel over. So we're very, very happy about that.

And it's an architecture that that should, be with us for a long, long time, and it will it just routes around all the noise and all the nonsense. That's what's beautiful about it. So educate your listeners. Educate them on, podcast apps they should be using and why. And I would say what I always say on the No Agenda Show is use a modern podcast app. You get alerted within 90 seconds of publishing. You get an alert that it's up there.

You don't have to wait several hours because, most of the the good hosts are using Podping. You have a multitude of exciting features like chapters. Transcripts, of course, is something that our group pioneered. Apple, adopted that, which is fantastic. But I think the cloud chapters, which can be crowdsourced, is very exciting. There's many other pieces of data that we're now creating. I think the location tag will be important moving forward. There's a lot of

things. We we're still kind of stuck in a in a inbox mentality of what a podcast app should be. We'll get out of that. Some some creative people will come in and just do something completely off the wall. There's frameworks you can grab right now that are open source that gives you the the basics. It's kind of interesting. I was invited into a WhatsApp group. I know, Rob, you're in there. Todd, you're probably in there as well. And, and I'm very

silent. I'm just lurking. I'm like, this is this is the same thing that happens over and over and over again. There's nothing new. Yep. It's the same conversations. I don't you know, I'll stay in it because it's interesting just to see it happen, but, you know, what's really gonna come out of it? Well, you know, I don't know. Nothing really. I mean, we need to run with scissors. We need to be creative. We need to be nuts. Yeah. We need to come up with nut so ideas and throw stuff against the

wall, and all the elements are there. All the pieces are there. The only thing that's holding us back is ourselves. You know, and and activity. Right? And and I'll and I'll just take a second here for all the podcasters that are listening to this today or watching whenever however you've tuned in.

If you care about this thing we call Open RSS and podcasting, if you care about that and if you care about your livelihood to continue for the next 20 years and for not these monopolies and these gatekeepers taking over and you wanna have a little control and have a say, that's the most important part, have a say. The first thing you should do is go over to podcast index.org and, get your checkbook out. At the very bottom here on the web page, there is a place where there is a PayPal donation.

It's in check. Oops. So you you go and you hit that and, and send, some value back to Adam and Dave so that we consist because all the cash goes in a in a kitty to keep this running in case Adam gets hit by a bus or Dave or whatever. You know, we wanna make sure this thing continues. At the same time So make make copies of of the of the index. Make make another system that runs it. Make a backup. You know? It's all there. All the data's there. All it's all open. Anybody can do whatever

they want. Just keep it going. Keep it alive. We were beholden to Apple. They were the the default on ramp to podcasting 4 years ago. They're no longer that. They just aren't. And, you know, I'm delighted to see that Overcast is is waking up. And, you know, it's hard maintaining a big app. You know? So it takes time. Now they're gonna be stuck in their inbox model forever. Someone new coming into the space, oh, I said said space.

They can, they can literally come up with something that is very specialized for a target audience, and you will succeed. You will succeed if you do that. I guarantee it. The top program makers are asking for it. They're asking for this type of stuff. And for those of you, making a reference to my checkbook, come on. You know what analogy is? Then get your PayPal account out. Hey. I still use checks. I love checks. Yeah. I I love checks. Yeah. I I write one one one a month.

40% of No Agenda's income is from people who send checks? That's beautiful. Mhmm. Wow. Yeah. Because some people don't have accounts. They might be that It's no, no processing costs. Yeah. Very little, like couple pennies. People send cash. People send gold, and soon we'll be taking Bitcoin finally. And and if you and if you look at the app section of the website, you can see who's participating. It's not Blueberry. You've got a whole bunch of podcast host in there, rss.com, buzz sprout.

You you it it shows everyone that's involved in this in this ecosystem. And there's a there's a massive list of stuff that you're probably not even aware of of companies that are trying to help you as a podcaster make this industry go our own way. And we have to remember in 2,004 when when Adam and Dave came up with well, when Adam came up with this idea and then Dave dropped it into, what the hell was his his, bug Actually Use radio user land. Yeah. Yeah. I pitched him on the idea in 2000.

Wow. And I flew to New York, and I said, here's what we need. And he told me to buzz off, and I came back the next day. I I said, no. No. Let's do this. And he put the enclosure into RSS. We were using it, sending QuickTime videos back and forth for 3 years, longer than 3 years. Had 911 in between. And it was till I saw the iPad that I made the connection. Right. So it it really has been 24 years since the enclosure element came into RSS. It just it didn't click until I saw the iPad and went,

that's a radio. I was like, I get it. That's a radio. And and I'm not gonna get here to do re rehash history. But in 2,005, we we gave up. The podcasting space gave up. What did we give up? Innovation. We let Apple take over in July of 2,005. The innovation stopped for how long? Until what year, Adam? Did you guys come back in and kick Podcast Index off?

And and I'll take some of the blame for that because I didn't really realize, because I remember the first disappointment when so so it was really it was very Steve Jobs flattered me, man. He invited me to a personal chat and everything, and then he introduced the integration of podcasting into iTunes and, you know, played the daily source code was fantastic. But if you looked at it, even from day 1, all the content on their home page was NPR, BBC, PBS. I was like, so

and they were the directory. And, really, the reason why is because they had the one click subscription. We were still telling people to find the RSS feed, right click, copy, go to your podcast application because we didn't have apps, paste in go to your subscribe, paste in the feed, and hit okay. Whereas today, another podcasting 2 point o group invention, episodes dot f m, which Nathan Gartright put together. I mean, when I send out a link to my podcast, I send an

episodes dot .fm link now. And if you go to podcast index.org, you find a show there. You'll see a little green icon. You click on that, and it opens up this entire list of everything you can play it in, and you select it. If you want, it will always select that one for you. And we solved a huge problem, something that we should have solved in 2005 or 2006. Instead, we found you know, we were arguing about Atom versus RSS and all kinds of other

nonsense. And it's it's it's just like when we introduce subscribe on android.com to make it easy to subscribe on an Android app, no one adopted it. You know why? It because Blue Berry did it. Can't do we can't let Blueberry have any credit for this. So, you know, we turned agree with that. You know, and that's fine. But, you know, we turned over what we could to this, to Podcast Index, and a few of our things got adopted. But it's And that's why it's important that

Podcast Index is what it is. Dave and I have been offered stock and and board positions and all kinds of stuff with everybody and everything. We we continue. We say no. We are just the guys who are independent. I was very touched. I was, asked to be part of the, hall of fame commission, and I said, no. Thank you very much. This is actually how this this show came about. Rob said, well, you don't wanna do that. Will you come on the new media

show? Okay. And and it's truly because we can't be seen as anything but completely independent of everything and everybody. We're there for RSS. We're there for podcasting. We're there for innovation. We're there for picking people up. When they fall down, the scissor puts an eye out. That's what we're there for. So before we get out of here, 16,000 stats came in from Darren. Oh, he says no check checkbook here, but I have lightning. Thanks for the show. That's how instant feedback works. 1701

stats from Mike Dell. YouTube died right when we were talking about some censorship stuff. 1700 and sats from Mike Dell. Hi, Adam. Go podcasting. So we wanna thank for you that provided some value back via sats today and those who streamed sats too. Adam, we could go for 3 more hours here, dude. I know you So I wanted

yeah. I wanted to throw one thing out before we go, Todd, is is as we've seen over the last probably the last 6 months to a year is kind of a stagnation in new content creators coming into the podcasting medium as we've seen the the show's publishing active episodes, kind of trail off a little bit, maybe stabilize a little bit that that we've seen here more

more recently. But is there anything that you're seeing or that you think could be done in the industry right now to reinvigorate, you know, reinvigorate the interest in creating a new podcast, Adam? Local. That's all I got. That's it. A broken record. Do something about your school. Do something about your community. Do something about your church. Do something about your boy scout group, your girl scout group. Same thing these days.

You know, do do something for local geography, for your local community. It's a wide open space. It is completely wide open. I think there's money in it, for from community support or from local advertising. I truly believe that. That's where I advise everybody to focus right now. And as, I know Adam won't promote it, but if you're not listening to the podcasting 2 point o show, you need to get

subscribed to it. That's the board room where we talk about in or that's where Adam and Dave talk about all the in-depth, stuff that's going on podcasting 2.0. Then they have guests on in the space talking about the cool stuff that they're doing. So, you know, it's my first listen every Friday. If I don't catch it live, you would definitely wanna listen. That's that's mandatory if you're a podcaster and care. If you care, if you don't care, then, you know, let someone else own this space.

But if you care, listen to that show. Yeah. And if you want to hear Adam and John Dvorak's, No Agenda Show, Adam, where should a listener go check it out? Noagendashow.netoranypodcastappexceptforspotify. Just look for no agenda. Adam, do you wanna give out any other contact information beyond that? Or I have only one thing to say. Go. Yes. Oh, god. Do it one more time. It got muffled a little bit. Go. Get the same. I don't know what the hell. Zoom cut it or something.

You can't hear it? Yeah. It uh-uh. Is this too loud? I don't know what happened. You don't hear Go Podcast? We hear it. We hear it. We hear it. Podcasting. It's Something's getting shot. Some reason it's not coming through. Right? Yeah. Well, screw that noise. Yeah. There goes my bit at the end. The hell the hell is Zoom. Man. Okay. Yeah. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for having me on. It's always a pleasure. Thank you for doing the show. I do listen to it pretty much every single week.

Listen to it, because it's just I have other things in my life to do, and I love doing it at the same time. That's right. But I appreciate it because, you know, I love hearing about the things you can't talk about. It always gets me very excited. Yes. I had one of those meetings this week. So I I'm sure you did. Yeah. And it and it again, it was with people that were important, and I kind of, how should we say, I lectured for 30 minutes. Alright. Thanks, Adam. Appreciate you coming on and Take

care, guys. Alright. Thank you. Thank you, chat room. Bye bye. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. So, Rob, wow. You went really wide screen. Yeah. Now I did. Yeah. So Super wide. No. Probably no way for me to fix that. I don't think anyway, well, like I said, we we could have talked to Adam for another hour or 2. Oh, of course. Yeah. There's a million things that we could talk about. That's for sure. So yeah. Yeah. Let's say the rest of you. Who should we have on next?

Who should we have on next? Did did you get the did you get the opinion Adam does not like AI? Yeah. I think My opinion a lot of ways he's he's actually, it's it's true what he was saying about AI and the and the dangers of it. And where it may be leading us is into just not clarity, which is what I was hoping that AI was going to bring to our world and to podcasting was, you know, number 1, the truth. And number 2, more clarity that all of us have towards

what's happening in the world. But I'm not sure that's going to be the outcome here. I think it's just going to be more of the same, more kind of confusion and, incorrect information because there's people putting thumbs on the scale and trying to control all the information that

comes out of this stuff. I think the way we looked at it, and I wrote up a piece about it here recently, we're really trying to be responsible and can straining outputs that we're getting in, at least at Blueberry and our AI, to exactly what's in your transcript. So that, you you know and and so far, it's not running home to mama and putting, but, you know, who knows? It could change tomorrow. Things could go sideways. I think if you have specific tools and

specific use cases, it's fantastic. You know, I've been doing some stuff recently that if nothing else, maybe go, I never thought of that. And it sometimes it gives you ideas. You're like, that's as stupid as they come, because it's like it's not you know, I said I asked it like a question, like like a moonshot question recently. I said, give me a moonshot for this. And then what it came up with was like, well, I don't have a $1,000,000,000 to build what it suggested for a moonshot.

You know. And, so but I I don't know. I think, I think it's gonna be interesting time, especially, 2 years from now, it's it's really. If we ever hit, level 3 then if it really works at level 3, if it works, it's gonna be life changing for everyone. But that that I don't know what's gonna happen to all of us on the web. I think I think we're all screwed unless we put our foot down and build our brand. You know, I I talked about it in

the in the previous show. And for those of you that haven't been here recently, your brand is gonna be very, very important and you know who you're who your brand serves. Who loves you? Yeah. Yeah. And I've been hearing increasingly people saying that, you know, really all of us need to be thinking about our personal brand. That's right. And and what authenticity of connection that we bring to the market that is outside of AI. Right?

And, and that's going to be the value of human contribution in the world is going to be our ability to connect with other humans, at an authentic level. And, and the big question I have in my mind is what does that mean for our connection with AI? How do we, partition that away from our, the influence on our ability to be human Yeah. Is really where the the battle lines are gonna be drawn. AI is not gonna replace humans. You know, case in point, I'm hiring 4 people right now, in specific areas.

And, but it will definitely change some of those positions in 2 or 3 years might be able to be done by an agent. Time will tell. Or someone that knows how to manipulate the data coming out of the agent so it doesn't sound like it, you know. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see where it goes. Okay. There was a 152100 things. So I wanna thank Martin, Emily, Darren, everyone that made a comment today. Jennifer, Dead America, everyone that was in the chat. There was just too much stuff going on.

You guys had a good time today, so thank you. The chat is saved so that you'll be able to go back if you want. Anyone that's listening to this later, you can look at the chat that happened on the YouTube channel. Rob, I'm sure your channel's been busy too. So, lots of Eileen and just looking back here. So thanks everyone that's been here for the show. Of course, Adam's a big draw and and, I appreciate again, appreciate Adam coming out. I can be found at, geek at geek news

excuse me. Geek news atgmail.com@[email protected]@geeknewsonx. Yes. I'm still over there and active because I'm a nerd. And I can think for myself and sort through the the stuff that, you know, the crazies are talking about. Rob, how about you? I can be found on x too, and, you know, I think x is, a a glimpse into the various extremes in our culture. And it's, if you can moderate your your emotions and just ingest it for what it is and not get too caught up in it.

I I I think that's the key, but but I do think it's a glimpse into the complexity of our society and our world today. And if you can handle it, I think it's good to keep an eye on it. So I'm over there as well and on all the other social platforms. And, I have a website, robgreenley.com. And this show has a x account as well. It's, n m s podcast. Yeah. Nms podcast. Right. And and I think anything else, if you wanna send me an email, you're certainly welcome to. It's just [email protected].

We'd love to hear from you and input about the show. And also, I'm sure Todd would love to get that as well. If you are a Blueberry customer, we are headed for a team, and basically put our heads together. We're going to, Jensen, Florida, Palm Beach, next week. And we are going to be head down and strategizing the next 12 months of what we're gonna be doing at Blueberry. We're talking marketing. We're talking, AI. We're talking,

everything. So, 16 hours of contributions of no email, no answering the phone, basically working together to come up with some ideas for a Blueberry customer and you have a bitch, complaint, suggestion, whatever it may be, feel free to send me them over there and that's real easy. [email protected]. Otherwise, Rob, I will see you in 2 weeks. Now here's the dealio. Our next show on September 9th is excuse me. On October 9th is gonna be my 2 year anniversary in podcasting.

Oh. So I a 2 year. 20 20 year. Year anniversary in podcasting. And I'm gonna be doing a special, 20 year anniversary Geek News Central that night as well. So you'll get, 2 two bashes of it. If you're a g and c listener, you'll get, me talking about it on the next episode we're able to do together, then, you can tune in about an hour and a half later and and get another run out of it. So by that time, you'll be sick of me, if you aren't already. So,

yeah. Put that on your calendar. October 9th, show up here same time, 3 o'clock EST. We'd love to to hang out with you, and then, we'll be able to get to the chat room a little more. And, then then, you know, Adam loves to talk as he's obviously a a a great narrator in the podcasting space. Yep. Alright. Alright. Well, thank you. Thanks for joining us today. It's great to do another show and do a show with Adam. It was fun. So, everyone, thanks and stay subscribed. Newmi show.com. Take care. Bye

bye. Bye.