Countdown to Podcast Movement: Insights from Dan Franks #594

Tau frog in the afternoon. With Todd and Dr. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Todd, We're we're back again with a new media show and We have an exciting guest with us today, mister Dan Frank's from podcast Movement, but, Todd, how are you doing today? Hey. I'm I'm alive, and I actually got a few hours of sleep before the show today, so you'd like few hours of sleep here. So you're all bright and shiny today. Yeah. I at it's 8AM here where I'm at, and so so I'm getting and ready to rock

and roll. So... Yeah. That's a 12 hour difference. It's 8PM here. So... Right. Yeah. Yep. And Dan. So how are you? I'm good. I'm... It's good to be back. It's been it's been a little bit. I was commenting to you all the technological advances we're all we're all coming across these days. We were on Skype, the last time, and we've, you know, progress past that. So on the last time, so that's kind of dating. Last time I joined you all lot is.

I think we need a new 1 of those But, but anyway, it's the 1 I have here programmed to my road caster. So so we need to update that. But but it's a fun 1. So it's a little you know, retro for us. But but, Dan, it's exciting time for you. You're on a countdown. What was it 30 days or less to podcast movement in Washington. So. Yeah. Yeah. About a a month from now, we'll be we'll be on the back side of it. So, yeah, under 30 days

and go to podcast movement. And, like, like, at every every year at this point, out from the event, you know, 3, 3 and a half weeks out. It ever... The whole team's hair is on fire, mostly in good ways, and just kind of, you know, coming down the home stretch. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of activity on your your website as well. So I wanted to pull that up on the screen too. And so actually, 25 days 15 hours and 52 minutes. To... But but who's counting. Right? Exactly. Right

Right No nobody's counting. It's in August nineteenth through the 20 second in Washington Dc. So it's, I guess, Washington Dc is gonna be officially the capital of podcasting. So it's 1 thing that podcasting hasn't had as a capital of. Yeah. It's funny. You know, everyone kind of confuses the A l, the O l, Like, what's the right use of capital. I can assure you I've done plenty of research to make sure the... Yeah. That... That's the right spelling for all our linguist out there.

But, yeah, So excited to to b in dc. The last time we were in the northeast was 20 18 for, Philadelphia Podcast movement. Mh. So, you know, whatever that is, 8 years ago or so 7 or 8 years ago. Last time we were up there and been all around the country and excited to be back up in the northeast. It's got its own kind of, you know, vibe. And from an event side, its own registration patterns and its own, you know, type of attendees, a lot more people from New

York are gonna come to a, Mh. An event in Dc, than they are in La. And, so... Yeah. Every... 1 of the reasons we like traveling around is, not only is every event different, every venue different, every city different, but the the attendee base is a little different based on where you're at in the country. So all fun things that keep us on our toes. So it Is there anything different about the event, you know, that's that's related to being in

Washington Dc? Is there anything know, involved with the government or Anything that involved in the conference at all? Well, you know, 1 of the interesting things is, it's the same week as the Democratic National convention. So in terms of, in terms of any presence from your more traditional, you know, what what would you call, like, political or news comment that might be based in Dc or that some of the networks

might wanna send out. Oh, For that event, they'll be in... I I guess, in Chicago for the national convention. But in terms of some of your more local you know, broadcast networks and things like that Npr, is 1 of the bigger ones that's headquartered in Washington Dc. So they'll have a big presence. We just announced yesterday that they're coordinating a keynote,

featuring Ira Glass. From this American life, and Rachel Martin, who is kind of AAA long time, a traditional broadcaster for the Npr, network. And she's got a new podcast. So they'll be on stage together. So, you know, from a from a, kind of what's happening locally standpoint, Npr having a big presence is kind of the biggest thing. Mh. But, obviously, you know, lots of lots of media and lots of, things are are headquartered in Dc that,

maybe otherwise wouldn't be there. I've noticed not necessarily from the speaker standpoint, but from the attendee standpoint, we've had a lot of governmental organizations buying tickets for their their staff to go. So you know, a lot of lot of them have internal podcasts that they're using to communicate internally with their teams, and a lot of them do have, you know, public podcasts that kind of... Mh. Put out news about their different

segments of the government. So definitely, a lot of, local registrations as far as that goes. It's kind of interesting to see as those registrations come across the platform, seeing different companies that we otherwise wouldn't see. Yeah. Talk, go go ahead if you have something to ask. Yeah. I just... I dropped off for a minute, so something was the audio quits, So I missed with Dan had said, you know, I think, from my perspective, it's gonna be interesting because I think this is the

first time in quite a while. There's been a truly east post show, and we're kinda laughing about it internally that, you know, it's be 1 of our shortest you know, flight days to get to the event. And where we can actually get there in a direct flight. So, you know, I think, from that standpoint, we're, we're excited And and it's it's good to see that you're getting those types of registrations from the local areas. Are you seeing more, more East coast registrations or, you know, how's

the... How... Overall, are you seeing more more East Coast registrations? Are you seeing a good mix? Yeah. We're seeing a we're seeing a good mix, and that's 1 of the things I mentioned was the last time was 20 18. We were on the north in the Northeast on East Coast for in Philadelphia. And 1 of the things that happened that year was a whole lot of super late registrations, and most of them being from, like, your New York Metro. So, I was talking earlier about, kind of the different...

Everything... The the the city, the location always has different things about it. And 1 of the things that we learned about the Northeast was a lot of people from New York are okay buying a ticket late and taking the train down or driving down or whatever, that happened in Philadelphia, and we're seeing that a lot too a lot of people from New York that we're talking to. They're like, oh yeah I can't wait to come. Like, we haven't bought your ticket, and they're like, yeah. Yeah. I'll get

to that. You know, I don't have to buy a plane ticket kind of thing. So I'm still gonna buy my ticket. So we are seeing a lot of, kind of New York people. I would say that are are registering late. But, yeah, a lot of Dc. That's what I was saying We see a lot of, like, dot gov v email address coming through in the registrations that I know we've not

had those people at the event before. So definitely, a lot of local people, and then, you know, of course, our our usual travel from what looks to be again, once again, all 50 states coming in and Right. A lots of the International travel as well, easier to get from the Uk, and that kinda, is part of the the world to the East Coast than our West Coast event. So we definitely see people kind of taking advantage of that proximity as well.

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the... I know you you mentioned the Npr having a keynote. Haven't been paying real close attention to your keynote list, but who have you got stacked up right now for for keynote? Yeah. So 1 of the models we've over the past few events taken for those keynote to pair some sort of data research presentation with more of a,

creator or conversation type of thing. So that every keynote block we'll have 2 to 3 sessions and that we kind of, you know, scratch the itch of having some some data and research involved. New... Hopefully, new data and research that comes out followed by, a little bit more what I would call maybe entertaining or, you know, kind of, not so, data rich presentation. So that's happening again this year. So excuse me, on our, what I'll call our data research side of

things. We've got Gabriel So from Edison research, Edison given keynote notes for, close to 10 years now. They've got a cool 1 where they've partnered with audio check. Network, which is best known for, the crime junkie podcast. They've partnered with them to do a deep dive in research into, listeners of the true crime genre, which we all know is as a

big 1. And so they're they're presenting the data that they've learned from listener behavior of of true crime podcast and then kind of extra that how other podcast outside of that genre, can maybe use that information and put into action. So that's 1. We've got Tom Webster, formerly Edison now it sounds profitable. For the second year in a row, he's giving what he calls, the podcast landscape presentation. So he's got a whole lot of data and research to present

that day. And then we've got 1 with Steve Goldstein, who's from amplify media, and he's partnering with Westwood 1, c on some research they've done about how, audio promos. Can best be used in podcast podcasts so, you know, a lot of people. Here, do promo swaps or, you know, buy ads on other podcasts that are similar to yours or that kind of thing. So they've done some research on how to, effectively use audio promos. So Those are our 3, you know, what I'll call research pillars that

are taking place on stage. And then we've announced, Let's see. We've announced 2 of the 4 other ones that are kind of more, what I'll call a little bit more. Entertaining, but also educational. The first 1 you see on the screen, Eric Silver and a amanda mc laugh. They're from a company called multitude, multitude productions. They're really interesting. They've been around for 10 years, and they're are fully independent.

Podcast production company that, is based out of New York, and they've got a a team of, basically producers that produce a whole bunch of independent shows. And they have kind of done what a lot of podcast that attend podcast movement wanna do, which is, make it full make podcasting their full time thing. But they've done it and never taken outside money, never, you know, Flirt with the acquisition offers that a lot of studios that are kind of their size.

Have taken. So they're gonna kind of give that... Which... I'll I'll go back on that that same topic. A lot of networks and studios that have been acquired, have since been sunset or laid offer wiped out completely. And they, basically, is presentation is like, hey, there's a reason why we didn't take this money or this strategy, 5 years ago when everyone else was, and we're still here to talk about it and we've... We're you know, we've kind of thrive

through this time period. So kind of a, you know, informational educational but also motivational message that we'll really resonate with a lot of our creator attendees. And then the 1 we talked about with Ira glass and Rachel Martin, and they're gonna do. What essentially is a live version of Rachel Martin's podcast on stage, which it's, like an interview based game show. So they're gonna do that. So

that'll be fun. And then we've got 2 more, final keynote main stage sessions that we're announcing next week, And then, of course, our usual, really strong lineup of, breakout sessions, panels happening. Throughout the day. So day starts with the keynote, and then the rest of the day is those breakout sessions and panels that are, split up between different track stages based on their topic. With the amount of man going on over Ai, I'm sure you inundated with Ai

speaking proposals. Mh you know, even us, you know, we we focus quite a bit of time this year in developing Ai solutions for Blueberry what are you seeing on that front, of anyone is in the Ai? In this... That is... In other words, do anyone speaking on Ai that is not part of the podcasting community, in other words, an outside voice or most of the folks that are coming in, speaking about Ai already in the industry. Yeah. So first, I'll talk about the Ai kind of,

submissions like you like, you hinted at. So going into the event, what we had initially laid out was kind of our 3 core tracks. 1 1 of the core track was gonna be, like, podcast creator, like, kind of your traditional, how to tell good stories and and everything that's that's just, you know, or interview skills. 1 of them, and that 1 still exists. 1 of them that's industry, so that's, like, not for the creators themselves, but for the business side of podcast That's always been a

successful 1. That 1 still exists. The middle 1 that kind of sits between those 2 was originally meant to be focused on video only because, you know, a year and a half ago when we're putting these kind of structures together. Like, it was all about video. You gotta do video. You gotta have a video component. Which I think that's still kind of a message that people are getting and thinking about.

But we got so many submissions that were Ai base submissions, and not, like, for video, not like we didn't get any submissions for video, but a whole lot less interest in, like, speaking about of, video podcast, but so much interest in, Ai, and other things that were, like, kind of tech kind of like Ai, people sometimes call it Ai when it's not really Ai. It's just kind of technological and... Advancements in in podcasting an audio and video.

That we turned that middle track from straight video to what we more call emerging trends. So it's video, but it's also including Ai, and some other, some other sessions that kind of, fit into emerging tech emerging trends. So kind of, you

know, to answer... Before answering your specific question, that was, like, a reform that we had to do with that specific track just because there was so much interest in speaking about and teaching about, and we have to you know, d that's also interest in learning about Ai. In terms of, like, who is actually speaking on Ai, I'd say it's mostly people that are already in the podcast space, either people that are, you know, representing audio, tech companies that are Ai, like, des script.

Des script is obviously 1 of the bigger Ai platforms with Ai, and probably 1 of first people to really implement what we're now calling Ai into their their transcriptions and their audio software. So, like, someone like them would would definitely be there. I'm actually Andrew Mason, who, is a group on... Who was 1 of the founders of group on. And then went on after he sold group on to found des script. He's actually gonna be there on a panel on that track. So that's that's kind of a cool thing.

But, yeah, I would say most people that are speaking about Ai are people that are active in the audio, podcast, video, Ai or field already. Not necessarily anyone else from, like, you know, an open Ai or something like that. Right. Right. Yeah. We just, you know, and what's kind of interesting is the... Our read on podcast, wanting Ai is they're still a little bit lee.

They're still cautious. And I I think that's actually probably a a good theme for them to be at this point is to be a little cautious. The thing that I'm, you know, obviously concerned about is Ai generated content that is pure Ai generated content, not, you know, not something that helps you with questions for a guest or helps you with the topics or helps you with getting talking points together. You

know, I think that all... Those use cases are very acceptable, but is... I think my concern really is in the long run. You know, this barrage of written Ai content that's already come out, because we're kind of in this legal gray zone right now in that, you know, if if you're creating Ai pure content, you know, there's copyright issues in that the content can't be copyrighted because it's generated by Ai. So I think over time, we'll we'll see what develops, but

you know, I have ongoing concerns. Obviously, people using Ai to, you know, and, and I think I'm take a real hardcore stance on this as replacing words. You know, do you have to disclose that when you start, you know, editing your audio and replacing words or even purely generating with a boat a voice. Alright should you disclose that, and I think that's a discussion point that has not at all been

addressed or brought up. So I hope some folks are gonna be talking about some of those legal ramifications of using Ai in your production as well? Yeah. 1 of the cool things that we started last year, where we first debuted last year in Denver at podcast move at 20 23 was a concept called brain dates. So brain dates is this third party company that comes to events and basically curate this. It's a combination of... I consider it more networking They consider it more content.

That's kind of where, like, teaching and networking come together. So the idea is there's this brand date marketplace that all attendees have access to. And an attendee can basically, offer themselves up as a small group discussion leader on a topic that they are an expert in. And then up to, I think 7 or 8 attendees can then sign up to participate in that conversation. Nice. So... And you can also, like,

request topics. So you can say, like, hey, I'm not an expert in, Ai legal, but I really wanna talk to somebody who is. So you can basically put that up there. And then someone like a Gordon Fire or a Lindsey Bow or some of these, attorneys that are in our space. Can sign up to join those conversations or be invited to kind of lead those conversations. And yeah. Like I said, it's just a small group. That's intended for, you know, a 30 minute discussion

on a very specific topic. And last year was the first year we put it out there, and it was an overwhelming success, so we're bringing that third party back to to do that again this year. And it's... That's the type of topic that you know, most people wanna just learn about the Ai of the tools? How do I make my life easier? How do I produce my show easier? How do I produce more content or whatever?

So maybe, like, legal Ai is not gonna fill a room of a hundred seats, but maybe it can get, you know, 10 or 20 people that wanna come together and discuss it small group and, like, really have an interactive discussion. So that's where brain dates really comes in handy. So you know, that's kind of a... My way to shoe horn in, the brain days concept, but it's because those conversations are are like, happening in in that branded area of the event.

Nice. So did you see a growth in the the numbers of companies, let's say that have an exhibition booth or that are participating in there that have a linkage to to Ai? I mean, is that grown for you? Or is it the existing companies that are adding Ai? Mainly yeah. Both. I mean, the the r r show has fluctuate with the industry over the past several years. So, you know, 20 21, 20 22. There was all these new companies coming in.

And then just like with the industry with companies going under or getting acquired or kind of having fire sales. A lot of those companies that were there with us 4 years ago aren't in existence anymore, and new companies have come in. So we've seen like this churn, just, like the industry has. We've seen it at the event as well, especially when it comes to exhibit because when a new company starts, the first thing they often do is buy a booth and try to kinda the word out there.

But this year, we are seeing quite a few, you know, what I would call Ai companies that that's what their focus is. A lot of the companies that do, you know, kind of turning your content into marketing materials. I just think that's because that's a need that we always see podcast want is how do I grow my show. How do I spread word about my show and not necessarily spend more time marketing my show, than I do recording and editing my show.

So that's 1 of the fields that we see a lot of, you know, companies coming out and and exhibiting their their services, which is that Ai kind of marketing software. But, obviously, like, your des script and there's several other tools like that that goes towards more what Todd was talking about, which is that editing of your show using Ai, you know, taking out filler words, that's, I think okay. If you're the host and you wanna change your own words, through Ai. I think that's okay.

But when you have guests on or you're taking audio clips or you're you know, the worst having, you know, somebody that's not on your show using completely fake, you know, a quote from them or something. So, yeah. So anyways, the long story short, we've got tools that, could potentially kind facilitate some of those things as well. Then we can have those conversations about if

it's right or wrong. But then also, like, todd at the very beginning, a lot of existing companies that have been in the space for a long time, kind of bolt on Ai features or a completely different Ai products to their existing product. That's definitely something that we're seeing a lot of as well. So Ai, I think is is the big the big thing happening this year not only on stage, but just in what exhibit are showing off. You know, it's interesting because it's pretty obvious.

There were some companies that had a head start on, you know, putting platforms together and when, you know, specifically, when we approach this, I said, listen, let's just build it into the tool so that someone doesn't need a third party. So someone doesn't have to go and spend another 39 95 a month for their show. And because I hate to say it. I don't wanna be... You know, I think when you're a 1 trick pony,

you know, you're... You... Even even the the Ai offering that we've offered, even then, you know, that that has... You you if he's... It's in companies a part of a bigger package. So there's, you know, there's more things that people can get access to besides just the Ai tool. So I'm worried about some of these Ai companies. In Matter fact, we had 1 that we signed a pretty pretty significant contract with that we were using

and they didn't survive. They they... We got 9 months out of our 12:12 month contract before they went to went upside down. So I think that with the the space moving as fast as it is, probably pretty smart right now for people to do month to month on any type of subscription model if they're picking on any company out there just because As you said, companies over there 4 years ago or 3 years ago were not after...

Or 2 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. The sur rate you know, unless you were real early and got a head start, you know, it's really hard to break out some of the stuff, and, you know, so I think too, the message we got from our users was, basically, yeah. We want this tool internal So this part of our regular production flow, anything that, I guess, the the advantage of the script has is they had such a huge head start on everyone

you know, they're well known now. But now they finally, they've got some competition from Adobe and a few other offerings out there. So all those companies are playing catch up mode to them, but I'm sure a company like Adobe is gonna do well in catching up, but it's, again, it's... The stuff takes time. So you know, and, of course, des script made a, you know, amazing acquisition of the of the other platform, you know, that was probably 1.

Correct. Yeah. That was probably the smartest acquisition. Did I saw in the space in many, many years. So, you know, I think they're des script is well positioned and well loved. Well matter of fact, 1 of the podcasts that I listened to that is about Ai. They used script editing, and they're just, you know, they're giving them accolades left and right on their show and they're not even... They're just a podcast. So, Yeah. The des script is definitely kinda a

hit start. But what are some other emerging stuff that you've seen, people's submitting submissions for that end up being, a, that's a cool cool topic. You know, there's an... I would say, not not to not to put down any of submissions, but I would say the ones that are most unique are are gonna be those ones that are either Ai. And, like, on some of those presentations aren't like, hey, Ai is great. Like, we... Here's to use Ai, Some of them are kind of, like, counter arguments to Ai.

Yeah. So the those are those are good. But, yeah. I I would say, like, there's not necessarily anything like super groundbreaking. We several years ago, there was a big rush of presentations that had to do with, like, you know, every brand needs a podcast. So branded podcast, yeah. Branded podcast that's that. We've definitely seen a step back in that, and which I which I think is good. Because I think that not every brand needs a podcast. I think some brands can do

really well with them. But I... So that was, like, a big push. So I I would say, like, stuff like that that we've seen a big pushes in in the past, that we're not seeing big pushes currently. But I mean, the the same things that we always, you know, try to aim for and try to bring to the education. You know, growing your show. That's obviously, the the number 1 question that every podcast wants a. So we have several growing your shows,

you know, social media... Different social media channels have changed. So there's, you know, more... Or kind of 5 years ago, would have been how to grow your show on Facebook and now it's, you know, Tiktok. And and stuff like that. So those sessions all evolve monetization. I would say there's there's still interest both in the attendee standpoint.

As well as a speaker standpoint and more, you know, membership models, and then your listeners kind of paying, which I know this show's kind of been an advocate for for years of P for whole existence of, like, you know, listener supported versus, like, just the only way to make money is to go out and sell ads. Right. So I think that's a big

thing. We also, in the past, few years had had a lot of, like, you know, pushing of dynamic ad or programmatic, like, hey, If you have 5 listeners, you can make money. And I'm luckily, we've seen a lot less of that. I don't know if some of those platforms have realized like, they're not making any money off those customers either or what. But from a creator standpoint, it's... To me, it's very valuable to be like, hey, No.

You you don't... Not everyone just because you can, you know, click a checkbox and get, you know, a middle inserted randomly into your show and make 5 cents. Like, that doesn't mean you need to do it. Right. So we've we've seen kind of some of those presentations and and proposals scale back on that topic a little bit. So, yeah. Like I said, it's it's interesting It's more what we're not seeing as much of, than we are, like, new things we're seeing at least this year.

You know, 1 thing that we see on our side on premium is we had this you know, we we keep track of feature request. And you know, premium premium premium we here this. Where, you know, marking up on, like, you know, on the ticker, you know, all the shows that wanted a premium podcast. They wanted be able to add pre or they wanted to whatever the model was that they were into an extra episode.

You know, I I'm just based upon our experience a lot of people say they want premium, but when it comes to executing premium, it's a much smaller number. You know, we did not hit our Kpi on the number of new customers that, launch premium shows. And it's the only product that I've launched probably in the past 2 years that did not hit a Kpi goal on what we thought was gonna be the number of new customers in that projection. So I'm always now when I'm in talking to a podcast and there's... They

say, I'm gonna do premium. I'm like, okay. So do you understand what that really is involved in having this ground truth discussion. So it's gonna be curious to see then what people are saying at the event when it comes to doing premium or even Apple subscriptions, which, you know, we were 1 of the early ones that integrated with Apple, and Apple, you know, they... We have a meeting with them on a periodic basis to look at

the numbers. And I I think they expected I don't, honestly, I think they expected more as well, little behind baseball of a discussion there that, you know, I haven't talked about before, but I I think that a lot of people say they want premium, but it comes time to execute. They don't. So going back to the the value for value model, You know, I think we see a much bigger uptick and that, I'm, you know, multi more of people. You know, I think to...

Last time I checked, we'd probably, about 30000 dollars in earnings out of the podcasting 2, Satoshi streaming stuff. So, you know, that's that's a that's a much bigger number than what people have made in premium podcasting. So I I think there's some having these discussions about alternative, not alternative. We shouldn't even say that word anymore value Just 1 of the options. Right? 1 of the directions you can go, not an alternative direction. Yeah. 1 of the options. Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. And it's... The whole premium side has been kind of bi into separate solutions. Right? So you've got Spotify and you've got Apple and then you can have your own kinda system that runs on your own web websites. So you're basically kinda splinter your audience across all these different platforms on the same concept we haven't really been able to integrate that

much. I know. Spotify started out, trying to do support third party kind of paid premium podcast, but I don't know that they're doing it anymore. I'm not sure what the update on that is, but... It it but if you look at this it shows at a wide spectrum. And, you let's, you know, break them into averages, How many shows that have, you know, under a hundred listeners, How many shows have a thousand, how many shows are made to 5 and 10. You know, those percentages

get smaller as you move up. So the number shows that have enough viability to do premium it's actually in the end, relatively small. Maybe 15 to 20 percent, they're probably enough numbers of listeners to make a go of it that would make it worthwhile. And, you know, again, it's a big commitment me so okay I'm gonna give you an add free version of my show. And you subscribe to it. What if you only get 10 people to subscribe you do

that extra work. Like you said, like, you have to have an ad supported show to then have a non ad supported version of your show. So, like, that's also in a big piece of it when you're talking about small shows looking at the premium model. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about something something that we kinda touched on early in the conversation was around video.

I know that's a highly contentious topic in the podcasting space right right now about, you know, the the Youtube entry, and then here today, in pod news, we saw some some mention by Spotify, Ceo about, their embrace of video and video, but they term video podcasts. On on their platform. So we're seeing this kinda Youtube, and then there's this option of Rs based video podcasting, and then And then, what what we're seeing on on

spotify. Dan what's your observation just on the, kind of feeling on the ground about how the industry is doing on this because we see research coming out, pushing us towards video and on the same time, there's a lot of kind of ground thought that maybe it's not always a good good use of time on the part of podcast.

Yeah. I mean, there's a number of directions to go that 1 of the on the ground observations I see when we do our meetups ups around the country, I've done some local meetups here in Dallas as well as. We go on different meetup tours. We get a lot of people that come to those. We run ads on Facebook and the local groups and stuff like that. People come to this podcast meet, and they show up We're like, oh, you know, what's your show? What's your podcast and

they're... It's like a Youtube show. There's no. There's no Spotify, there's no Apple podcast, it is a straight Youtube show that they are with themselves. And with their friends, they are calling it a podcast. So I just... To me, like, from the creator side, there's this whole segment of the industry where they don't speak our language. They don't know what it is we're talking about. And then when you know, we get up there and talk

talk about. Well, anything. Rs feeds, anything that we just consider part of our vernacular, it's it's foreign language to them. So I think, like, the same way that we're looking at, like, hey. How... You know, should we have video what, you know, what's the video conversation for audio first podcast? There's the same... There's the whole flip side of it? And it's like, video only people that that, you know, how do we kind of push them. And if they come to a podcast movement event, like,

what's the entry point for them. So then they figure out, like, hey. There's a whole lot more to this than my Youtube show essentially. So that's it. Yeah. I'm curious. I... Because this has been my hypothesis for a while. How do they leave that event? Are they kinda like, Oh, holy shit? Or are they... You know, where where where do they leave and having been exposed to the non Youtube side, I guess, the best word. So 2... Yeah. 2 very different

reactions. 1 is, like, almost like, doing an audio version of this would be, like, going backwards. Like, there's a certain subset which, like. Why would I do that? Like I've I've already progressed past that. Why would I then go back to that and that's usually, honestly, like, a younger demographic that they consume all of their content on Youtube on Tiktok, whatever. So, like, because they're they're if not, you know, gotten the desk job where they listen to a show. Or

they... They're not commuting where you have to listen to something. They haven't, like, quite experienced the value of audio from a consumer side from the creator side, like, it's it's going the wrong direction. But then we have our whole other people that, like, are open to it, and they're like, oh, wow. Like, I don't really have to do any else. Like I'm already making this video that the audio is

essentially the product anyways. So now I just have to figure out how to get that in front of a lot more people that could potentially consume my content. So we we see just the the both of those reactions, I would say equally. Yeah. And this was our approach to doing Vid pod, and I'll say, we haven't met our Kpis on that product. I guess I'll just leave it at that. I I think what it is is they... If they're going to the trouble of doing a Youtube channel, making it very, very easy in which pod

bean has done it as well. They've introduced a a version of a bid to pod, making it very, very simple for them to say, okay. Here's... Let me just do a couple of settings and then boom, we'll we'll we'll do the rest of the lifting for you. I think is is pretty appealing for those that say, why should I do this extra work and go backwards and and I think, you know, if someone stops by the booth who will have a pretty

good sales pitch form them. So do you think you're gonna have a good contingency of youtube creators at the show? Have you been able to define that group? Yeah. It's a little harder to define just because they consider themselves podcast. So any, like, a written survey. They're gonna... Unless we're specific like, audio video, which that's probably the next step we need to do. But in, you know, those entry form questions like, they're considering themselves an active podcast.

But, yeah, just based on anecdotally, like, seeing those people show up to our other events, they... I I think that will be a pretty big contingent. And then I guess, kind of the the other part of the question is, like, you know, how we're seeing things with, like, people that are audio first. Those people that are traditional podcast and thinking about adding video.

You know, seeing data, like, like you mentioned, I think, Rob, you mentioned in pod news today with Spotify saying, they're kind of seeing that video not necessarily, like, top of how people are consuming the podcast. But, like, top of discovery for podcast. So they... The way I interpreted it was a lot of people are using the video feature, discovering new shows and then, like, kind of converting almost to audio listeners of those shows, but the video portion

is, like the entry point. I see a lot of that and even, like, anecdotally myself if I'm going around Youtube. Looking at videos on a topic, and then, you know, you can you can usually tell, like, hey, this is probably just a video version of an audio podcast. All very often, like, discover new shows that way, and then they'll end up in my podcast player, and I never watched the videos

again. But that's kind of the biggest thing I see, right now is you know, not just, hey, do I need to make video because that's gonna grow my audience or more people are gonna watch, you know, the video, than audio eventually. I just kinda see as podcast are always looking for new ways to get discovered and to grow their audience. If if nothing else, it being a discovery mechanism could be, you know, the selling point. I think the argument. Go ahead, Rob.

Yeah. It just seems like that, you know, just from my own experience over last year of doing doing a Youtube show as well as having it be a podcast. Is it... I think a lot of content creators because of what Youtube has done and then also increasingly what we're seeing. Spotify do by, you know, raising the attention and the profile of the video that they're doing is that they're kind of trying to compete with a with Youtube.

And so I think a lot of younger creators are seeing that and they're starting to kind of con video with podcasting more. And also, you know, those platforms are using the term podcast.

So Okay. So I think that that's that's I think that there is 1 side of the industry that thinks that, those platforms are confusing podcast and giving them not necessarily the the correct impression about what podcasting is, but then there's the reality of it, and that's the reality that those people are seeing what they're seeing and they think that that's normal. Right? And to accept the fact and there there's also creators to think of themselves primarily as video creators.

Like, you were just talking about, Dan is that I do think that there's a division here of creators that think of themselves primarily as video creators, and then there's other ones that think of themselves as primarily audio creators, and both of those kind of divisions start to think about the other side. Right? And and... But when they do, oftentimes it's secondary. Right? So if you think of yourself primarily as a video creator, adding audio is, like, thought of is, like, maybe

some... You know, it's additional work. Right? Or it's not as high of a priority. So whenever they promote their show. They're primarily promoting the video side. So it's an interesting kind of contrast to what's happening in that area right now and how they're converging on each other but the same time. There's a lot of friction between them. Any have thoughts on that. Well, I'll would go ahead, Dan, and I've got a follow.

No. I was just gonna say, I I think it it also probably has to do with the level of success you're seeing on your primary platform. If you're, like, if you're seeing great success on video, then, like, the idea of maybe starting over on audio or or trying to grow into that. Yes. If that's important. It's less important or if you try it and don't see immediate success. You're like, wait. I've got, you know, all these subscribers on Youtube, and, like, audio is not picking up,

like, forget about it. So I think, like, if you maybe aren't having success on your primary platform, then it's more appealing to kind of branch off and see, like, you know, because you you haven't got a primary platform platform at that point. If you've not got a big, you know, a decent sized audience on either 1. So I think probably that level of success kind of where your starting point is when you think about the other, you know, the other side of it plays a lot of the role.

But I think the thing I worry about and we've talked about it here dozen times already on the show is this... You know, there... Basically, the narrative is that if you don't have a video podcast right now, you're screwed. And that's kind of the narrative, and you know, that's the impression. You have to have a video podcast. And a lot of those studies and stuff, you know, who's paying for them, you know, where's the P r originating?

Because as we go through and and and again, as as we look down the stack. Yeah. There is a small segment of shows on Youtube that are very, very successful. I mean, they're they're not gonna out the ballpark that are calling themselves pod cast with tens of thousands of of views, and then you get down below 2 300 and then it's minimal, You know, very, very minimal. And I don't know if it's additive and or if it's worth the creators time to have invested this stuff.

I think tools like String learn and make it easier to do video. And so that's part of the questions we're asking podcast now is if you are considering video, do you wanna do live or you do wanna do pre recorded? I think live makes it I think some people are hesitant to go live. Well, at the same time, it's definitely easier, then again, you've got those that are just as hardcore editor in video as they are in audio.

And if you've do do something on Youtube live, and then go back and edit then you really kinda lose out because there's no replace mechanism in Youtube. You can't replace the media. You basically have to publish an a new a new episode, and your count goes back to 0 while your counts, you got while you're listing live count, it can give this perception that you're not having a lot of success in spending a

lot of time. So this is the thing I worry about is someone that isn't a hundred percent up to speed on what's happening. And the challenge is of building a big show, audio or video, I have this this idea. Well, I'm gonna find success in video and I need to do that, and the next thing they know. They're discouraged and quit earlier just because, you know know, nothing's working for them. So right. Tried to do too much And, yeah. Try to do too much and then didn't

make it, Yeah. You know, put it enough time into the... What the focus should be on you. No, you know. So for our standpoint, this is... We're just trying to... You know, we're we're... We how, we've been doing video on this show for 12 years. So, you know, we're not 1 a say you shouldn't do video, but, you know, I think we're gonna really look at hard and make it easier for podcast to do a true video podcast. But at the same time, Apple needs to help us and apps need to help us.

So that Spotify isn't the only 1 talking about this narrative of having video in the platform. You know, if Apple continues to make video, a third class citizen in the Apple podcast app. There's not gonna be incentive for podcast to do Rs assessed based video podcast. Yeah. They they depreciate it quite a few years ago. And it's it's not easy to find a video podcast in the Apple Ecosystem right now. Even if you find a video podcast until

you click on the started it. It looks like it's audio until you click on the player. Yeah. But click twice. Right. Yeah. Pick click twice. And most people are not gonna click twice. So, you know, they've made an absolute third party citizen whereas Youtube and Spotify, I'm sure what they're doing to be quite frank with you. I'm sure Spotify surfacing video first and search results. Oh. So... Video platform. Right. Yeah. They made it

they made it a first class system. So of course of your sourcing the video version of a show. Right. And making the audio, the the bastard child on the platform, Yeah. Of course, they're gonna say they're having great success with video. So... So it's like a choose your own adventure Right? Like, you... They may... They can dictate what their stats are gonna show.

Yeah. Exactly. You know. So... And, you know, and then, you know, we've heard for years that, you know, Spotify was gonna be the saver and pay us money. You know, the joke is done. Yeah. The partners and stuff they yet. They're they're earning revenue, but, you know, for the 90 percent of podcast on, Spotify. They're they're being treated worse than musicians. Yep. There no money coming back. Right. Least cute dog when he gets a billion views, it gets 20000 dollars or something like that.

But... Yeah. You know. Lil, I think that's what his check was. I have to go back and look, But absolutely go ahead. So since we have Dan here, I wanted to go back to podcast move a little bit and kinda of fill in all of the other details here. So I wanted to talk about where the events being held. So Dan, want you tell tell us all about it. It's in Washington Dc. Yeah. So technically, technically it's in Maryland.

Maryland. Okay. The only the only people the only people that really push back on that are the people that live Dc that they're like, yes. It's not real Dc. But most people that work in commute to Dc. Don't live in Dc. So a lot of people from Maryland are like, oh, that's great. It's before I get to Dc. But what I say is you sit in the in the meeting rooms, or in the hotel lobby and you can look out the window and see the monuments. So to me, that's, like, that's Dc proper if nothing else. Yeah.

Quick access to downtown, highly recommend anyone who's coming in, go for the the night tour of the monuments. That's the best thing I've done in Dc. I've done it several times. You go down and you... If sell... You can just walk. You can start at the... Like, by the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial, and you can basically walk all the way down to capital building in the White House. All of that. It's all lit up. It's all open to the public. They have

security there, so it's super safe. But the night self got a night tour the of all the monuments really cool something you should do when you're in Dc. And the venue is right on, it's on National Harbor so that picture if you're on the video version, you can see the water. Really cool just kind of setting for the for the event. You look out the the expo windows, and you'll be looking at the water and kinda looking across the river or the bay or whatever it is. So that... That's really cool.

It's National Harbor is a really cool. I I call it it's almost like a Disneyland city that was built just on a, on an empty plot of land that happens to be an island. So this... Anyone who's been to our past events at Gay lords know that Gay what they like to do with their hotels was basically put you on an island and, make it really difficult for you to get off property. Right so they're they're usually never close to the city that they're a, a suburb above.

There's you... They usually have lots of acreage all around so you can't walk to a restaurant. Luckily, this hotel was not a Gay to start. Gay took it over. So for that reason, it's very walk. It's the most walk Gay property we've ever been at. In this little, like Disneyland of of restaurants and shops and mh, kinda little neighborhood, just steps outside the hotel. So really good for people who maybe have, have had problems getting lunch or dinner or breakfast and don't wanna stay in the hotel

to do that. Can walk right out. But, yeah. Just kind of a a cool town, we've actually, every year when we try to decide, oh, we we booked the... We have to book the city's 3 or 4 years in advance just to secure the venues of the size. We need. And, Dc has been AAA city that we've site visited properties in several times. Always kind of wanted to to find a fit there and we were able to do that. So just super excited to to be headed there.

Yeah. I made at that that same hotel and did a did a Nielsen conference a few years back. So So it's a gorgeous gorgeous hotel and the other thing that's common about the gay lords is that oftentimes they they have large atrium. Mh. That are part of it and that this 1 also for from the photograph has a large kind of glass ceiling and anytime does open experience. Right? It does. Anyone who was with us last year, fun thing that has happen. So, the Gay Rockies in Denver, which is their newest Gay

property. Yep. They're they're opening 1 in San Diego in a few years that we'll be at. But as of now, the the newest active 1 is, Gay Rockies is in the Denver area. Mh. And when we picked out the venue. We site visited, signed the contract. This big beautiful atrium, and then about a month before the event. They called us, and they're like, hey, we're putting the atrium under construction, so we're gonna build a bunch of walls.

So the restaurants will be open, but all the un cool looking waterfalls and, rivers and everything in the center of the atrium is actually not gonna be anything during your event. So that was a big time, we'll call a let down to put it nicely, that you know, they decided. They wanted to redo it 2 years into the hotel being... Like, we we figured, hey, we... It's a new hotel. They're not gonna do construction. They did. This 1 is, the Atrium will be open.

It is open. And else... Yeah. Like you said, really cool, gray views of the water. Super cool view of the the monuments and stuff at night. So it's stuff. And, during Covid, they actually read redid all of outlets. So the breakfast restaurant the coffee place. They have a cool sports bar that has a bunch of kind of bar games and stuff like that. So really really good kind of communal areas this year.

So you're gonna be doing all of your, kind of after hours events in the hotel or are you gonna be doing some off sites? So I heart will have an off offset party this year to be announced where that is. But, I believe every other event that is kinda going through us on the nights are going to be in various spaces around the hotel, so it'll be good for everyone who's staying there. They won't have to driver, Uber or anything else? Oh, I see that there's a Bowling alley in

the in the hotel. Yes. It's called like, Pin Bowling or something like that. So it's kind of, like, a a kind of, like a shortened bowling game. But, yeah, that a that a bar in there has a bunch of bar games that's fun for people. You know, I think for people they've never been to Dc, yeah, having lived in Southern Maryland before, if you're planning to stay extra days, you know, definitely stay the full weekend because they're, you know, you can't See dc in even 3 days.

You know, you might get 1 or 2 museums knocked out on on Friday and Saturday, but it's it is It's it's a monster city to be able to get through and there's just so much so many venues, Historical venues to go to is is crazy. Good advice on that night on the monuments. I think that's... Yeah. They start looking at the different places like, how many Smithsonian are there you're like, Gonna go to the Smithsonian, and then they're, like, oh, which 1? Like, there's there's more a lot more than

what. So, yeah, there's and all the... You know, the people of the... What's the Nicholas Cage movie, the night at the museum. So, like, a lot of people wanna go see the night of the museum museums. Yeah. It's it's a cool town and, obviously, you know, the history and all that. But... Yeah, like you said, weekend before weekend after we're kind of right in the middle of of both the. Yeah. Or both. If you can... You know, if you can afford to do both.

You know, So you this politics aside, the rest of the city acts normal, You know. Yeah. Right. And great food venues too, a lot of seafood there on the in the hardware and so forth. So, yeah, Lots of great options. Those are still more rooms available in the the events kind of space for the hotel. Yep. We do have some more rooms available, so we've essentially got the entire hotel, for our group, you kind of ass ask for more rooms, more rooms, more rooms.

Denver, we sold that really early because it was... It's 1 of their smaller hotels. This one's 1 of their bigger hotels. So we've got rooms. They're gonna cut off our discounted rooms, August fifth, which I think is, like, 2 weeks before the event. So that's about a week and a half if anyone had booked their rooms yet. We do anticipate our rooms to sell out. It's just kind of a race of if it'll happen before that cut off on August fifth or not. But Yeah,

you know, nice rooms that... We'll say the good thing that happened during Covid, A lot of hotels took advantage of that to redo a lot of rooms and a lot of common spaces and stuff. So what we're seeing right now is a lot of hotels are kind of our our new feeling, even though they're not new hotels because they they took advantage of the the downtime to do that. This 1 of those hotels that does have that new feeling to it to the rooms and the common spaces.

So the question I always ask you, Dan, and I know you you you jittery and don't wanna answer completely, but what's your what's your projected attendance this year? It'll probably be right around where we're at last year right around 3000 that's kind of what we're what we're looking at. I would... Like, I I mentioned earlier, when we talked about the location. People in Denver because it was not a lot of people

live there. Everyone is traveling in. So travel plans were made much sooner than if we're in a place where there's a lot of local people. We see the same thing in Los Angeles, very late registrations for our Los Angeles events because local people just. Yeah. They'd rather they'd rather pay more for a ticket. But know that they're going to actually use the ticket, then register, you know, a month or 2 months in advance and be like, I'm not actually sure I'm gonna be able to make

it. They'd rather just wait until the last minute and know they can make it. So really need a hotel either. So... Yeah. Correct. So they don't need a hotel. They don't need to book well, it's really just can I be in this place on this day or these days? So that's the same thing. We... Anytime we're in a bigger city. That's what we. So that's what we're seeing this year as well. But, you know, when when we planned for the events, we we've kind of planned for this, you know, a similar size to last

year, especially, lot... Like, last year was just so weird because you know, we were kind of in the middle of the the dip of the industry, which I think I'm I'm we're seeing kinda pull up from that now. But last year, we had a whole lot of exhibit who bought booths. And then either ran out of funding or completely went under

before the event. So a lot of people, like, pulling out at the last minute or saying, like, keep the booth, We don't want the money back, but we're not gonna be there because our whole team got laid off or because, you know, we saw equipment manufacturers who bought booths and then said, hey, we cut our podcast product line. So we don't have anything to bring or show. Luckily, kind of just anecdotally. We have not

seen any of that this year. We're seeing last minute booth bookings and that kind of thing. So it just kind of the the the... To me, the the tone and the tenor and the excitement, is more positive this heading into this year than we, had heading into and coming out of last year really. Well, let's hope the podcast enthusiasm is at the same level.

Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah. It's always passing to look at your your sponsors and your you're presenting sponsors because it's a little bit of a clue of maybe any kind of changes that are going on in the industry. So I just wanted to pull it up on the screen. It looks like I I heard back, which has been a regular sponsor the event, And then... Yeah. I'll tell you something interesting just looking at this. Just looking at this 1, Rooster teeth was a big, presenting

sponsor with us for several years. And they got acquired by Cnn. So now we see Cnn has kind of taken over Rooster teeth sponsorship. Even though rooster teeth is still an entity, I guess when they, you know, got acquired, they... That was something that kind of came over was that sponsorship, and they've decided to do Cnn audio. As the sponsor. And Cnn has been a sponsor in the past doing other things. They

are this year as well. They're sponsoring morning yoga and our relaxation lounge, but this is kind of an additional kind of a separate unit that took over that rooster teeth. So that's something interesting. We always see, you know, kind of newer... Some newer companies coming in that people don't recognize. So to me, those are fun get involved and see if they come back the next year, or if they, you know, kinda spend all their money trying to make a big splash.

You know, the other thing we're seeing this year is just a lot of, every sponsor wants boots on the ground. In the past, we've had sponsors who really are just like, hey, I'll take a I'll take a banner over here or I'll, you know, play my video on this big screen over there. This year, a lot of what we're seeing is just people that wanna host, you know, wanna have a booth the host meetings.

We've introduced a concept called Industry Connect, which is kind of more of a networking area within the Xp expo where, networks or or brands can buy a by a... What we call a nook, which is, like a little meeting area within the expo floor a little branded booth almost it's in the Expo floor. We've seen a lot of interest in those of people just wanting, like, dedicated meeting spaces. Private meeting rooms, people are are are booking

those more than they ever have before. So we're seeing a lot more interest in we'll say not just, like, waving the flag of a brand or a network, but the network's actually, like, wanna be doing stuff While there, which Timmy me is cool because Yeah. If I'm an attendee, and I see, oh, you know, sponsor a is going to be there, like, I anticipate being able to go there and meet them and talk to them and learn from them or, you know, do business with them or whatever.

And if I show up and it's like, oh, they're a sponsor, but it's because they have a, you know, sign on the wall. From the event production standpoint, that's great because that's that's good money for us, like, we'll sell sponsorships. But if I'm looking at it from the attendee standpoint, like, if someone's you know, sponsoring, I actually wanna be able to interact with them. And we're seeing the sponsors like, share that sentiment more so than we've ever seen before. So I think that's cool.

Yeah. I'm surprised to see 1 1 sponsor up here that I'm a member of. It's the speaker lab. So I think it's an interesting 1 that really kinda took me back. I wasn't thinking that I was gonna see them as a as a presenting sponsor. I thought that's interesting. So... Yeah. So them it's working with them. Right? I I think there's... And we've seen this before. It kinda comes and goes. They've been with us for several years now. But it's the idea of, like,

you know, tangent to podcast. Right? Like, you've got... We're gathering, you know, thousands of these creators, these influencers or people who wanna be influencers or who are using their voice and, like, either making money or trying to make money. And what other products or services might be of interest to those people outside of just podcast specific ones. So we've seen you know, for several years, we've seen, you

know, self publishing type platforms where... Oh, these podcast might wanna write a book, so we've got a product or service to help them write their own book or coming author. So we've seen this kind of thing before. And, you know, the the fact that a lot of them come back year after year. I I think it makes sense. And you know, the same way we talk about these creators who are, you know, well, I've got

an audio podcast. Maybe I need to do video to grow or, like, it's that same type of mentality that it you know, kind of appeals to is, like, you know, what what am What am I doing here? What can I do more? And we've certainly seen who you know, launch podcasts off the back of books as a traditional offer, so or a traditional author might launch a podcast, so I could see like that or a speaking career or whatever kind of go, that direction as well.

Ka job is another 1, community building platform. Yeah. Community and, like, I think they're they're hosting shows now. Right? As Todd to you probably better to me, but Mh. Yeah. Them. And, you know, we we've always kind of seen networks have presence, they're, you know, they're there to meet podcast. Kinda be a hub. They'll bring a lot of their hosts in and have their annual meetings with their hosts or or or you know, brands are their, ad buyers are there. So have those meetings.

But to me, like, I I see a lot of lot of sponsors and exhibit who are with us for the first time. And I I think that's cool. Because if I'm an attendee who's been, you know, comes every year comes most years to the event. You know, getting to see, you know, see see the traditional products or services that I work with or I've, worked with in the past and being able to reconnect with them. But also discovering new, you know, tools or or offerings, as as a c as, you

know, cool thing to do as well. So is this the first time that, you know, you've had blackmagic magic at the event? It is. Speaking of kind of video and Ai and all of that. They're actually sponsoring the... That emerging trends track that was the video and now is video and Ai track. We've talked with them several years. Actually, you know, we... We've all kind of had our experience at Nab and Bennett at Nab. Kinda, I forget the name of the new

the new side of the convention center. But when you walk on that long bridge that has the window that overlook the street, Blackmagic magic always buys the whole side of the Marriott hotel Like, fully brand. So every time for, like, the past 3 or 4 years, and I walk by there, I'm like, gotta get black match. Gotta have black match Right? Yeah. So... And and now with, you know, this whole video thing that we spent a lot of the time talking about, they... You know, they we're like, hey, we...

Yeah. We're you're right. We do need to be there. So that's exciting. And. I see Nasa's there too. Is that the first half or they've been in the right? It's the first time they've got a booth. So I don't know if that's kind of proximity to Dc. I think the team is actually Florida based if I remember correct? I did imagine. Probably would or... But they've they've spoken several times.

Last time we in Orlando. They actually did a private tour for some of our attendees where they took them down to, I guess, can and, kinda showed them the facilities. But, yeah. This is the first time they have a booth, so that'll be interesting. Always cool to see brands like that or not brands, but, like, entities like that get involved and you know, kind of invest in the space. Daily wires back. Yep. They were in they were in Dc with us as well. That's great. I don't

I'm sorry. In Denver with us as well. Yeah. I know. I saw them there too. Yeah. Yeah. We've kept Dan passed the hour, Rob. So... Yes. We have. Well, I I'm excited to come to Dc, and should be a fun event. I'm, you know, from a exhibit their perspective. We always, you know, we I... You know, hate to say it, but we always judge the success of the show based on floor traffic. So I noticed you guys aren't doing the beer beer hour this year. That was a successful thing in Denver.

So... Okay. Yes. It was it was successful for those who participated, and then like, We we didn't get the the buy in that we wanted. Like, we just saw, hey, it was gonna be this really cool thing. Yeah. So... Yeah. It could be it could be something we come out come back with in the past... It... That was actually something that the Denver hotel specifically. It was like, we'll call a menu item that they offered. Like, that 1 thing that they did. So we just kind of leaned into that.

But it could make a comeback. I did did it work for you all. Yeah. It was fantastic. And know, of course, we had our secret weapon. We had our secret mugs that we brought. And Yeah. I still... I still see those pictures whenever I'm looking through our our sponsor pictures. So it... You know, for us, it it it worked out really, really well. Have nothing else. It's just again building the brand, getting people. You... It wasn't... You're weren't doing business. People are just in

line getting a drink you know. But they were there at the booth, and you could have a few words of people, you know, that wanted to, but it wasn't really about having time to pitch. But it was just nice to see people. You know, it basically overlook your stuff and grab something they wanted something. So just an extra opportunity to to touch a exhibit I'm not exhibited but in Mindy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That's good feedback So, yeah. Fun.

I know I'm I'm late on myself as well, but fronts Not fun for us, but story about that is when we ordered the drinks for that, we were, intending to order the number of pores, and every bottle had 3 pores. And then the hotel order for us, the number of of bottles. So they ordered 3 times as much of, the beer. That way thought we were.

And they're the way their liquor licenses work, They're not able to, like, send that beer out with anyone, like, it's to be poured there or, like, basically, taken back to the kitchen. So, from our standpoint, that was a very unsuccessful expensive activation. Yeah. Like I said, about 3. It was already gonna be, like, a, like, a loss leader. Right? Like hey. It gonna be a good thing. Keep people in there give traffic exhibit that participated. So, anyways, that that... Not saying that led

us not to do it. But that was a a learning experience for us to make sure all the t's are crossed and Dotted make Yeah. No those 3 those bottles. Anyone who buy... Like, who's done hotel events, like, a bottle of beer. You're like, you know, 345 dollars for a great 1, maybe. At the hotel. Those are like, 15 or 20 dollar bonus. Yeah. So numbers out of quick. Yeah. Yeah. Well, do. Thanks. Yep. Thanks for. Look forward to look forward to seeing Seeing you all there. And, yeah.

Look forward to anyone who's wants to learn more. It's 20 24 dot podcast movement dot com. Tickets available, hotel rooms available. Yeah. We're just really looking forward to having you know, every year, we try to have the best 1 yet, and this year will be no different. That's what we're aiming for. Awesome. Have a great evening. Thank you for coming Alright. Thanks guys. Alright. Thanks, Dan. Alright. Things change, but still stay almost the same. You know, it's a kind of a rinse wash repeat.

Yeah. Well, that's the that's the conference game. Right? I mean, you have to have certain things that you kinda repeat and you just make slight modifications, the things it makes it simple It is interesting that the numbers are about the same. Yeah. It's fascinating. It's been that way for... I don't know how many years now. From, you know, has the attendees topped out where you know, my my experience at the London show... Well, the mixed experience by London show is a little different.

I would say there was more people that. At Pod fest and at Podcast room, that would stop the talk to you just on the whim. You know, we learned in London that, you know, when we go next year, we're going to incentivize people stopping at the booth. If you don't incentivize them to stop it the booth, they... You know, they're are been their walking and they're not even looking at the boost, they're just focused on where they're going. And so, you know, we're gonna... When we go

back to London, we'll... We'll incentivize people, and, give them a reason to stop. More than just, you know, talk to us about the service offering. So... Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's interesting. I I wonder if it's cap tapped out because the event is really more catered to the the the industry or the business side of podcasting and not so much creators. Well, I think we'll see and now with podcast making the shift and having some, outside, I guess, money. I don't know. Have

you found any more thing... Anything more about what's going on with Podcast. Yeah. I can probably share something on the screen here. Actually, some of the details came from pot news. So thank you, James for for that, but this is the kind of text of it here if I can bring it up on the screen here. It's probably hard to read at that text level. So let me zoom in a little bit more on it.

You can kinda read here. It says here, Podcast has announced a substantial strategic investment from 2 partners, Nick Pa joins as Ceo a podcast, and doctor Glenn V, will work on sponsorships and strategic relationships. Chris Will remain with the team focused on marketing and community building. Which I think is Chris's strength definitely. So I don't know either these 2 people, are they in the podcasting industry, or are they... Well, here. Let's click on. Nope Nothing.

Okay. This is his Linkedin page here. In. Says, Ceo at authority ghost writing, and ghost writing school, the director of smile and grow foundation and managing partner and Ceo of Pod fest to multimedia expo, So that's a recent addition to his background. K. So, that's interesting. And then doctor Glenn V, let's look at his profiling. I guess he's professionally a dentist and is a is a board member and he's an industry connector and a book publisher.

So so interesting saying that these 2 have invested. Yeah. Very, very curious. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Definitely. Yeah. So, you know, I wish Chris, the most luck in this, and I know that I'm working with him a little bit on the on the podcast Hall of fame that's gonna come up here soon. So... Yeah. So that's that's coming. So get out of this. And pretty quiet on the podcast Hall fame front. Yeah. It has. I'm I'm trying to get things ramped up

again around it. So I think there should be some more information coming out about it here soon. Okay. So that's Yeah. It's probably about time to start doing selection process. Exactly. And that's exactly the stage that I'm at. Of trying to get that going again. So did you wanna talk about Spotify a little bit here? Daniel Elk on in Spotify. There's some quotes in here that he made. Well, again, I think, you know, when you control the narrative, control the platform.

Mh. You can say whatever the hell you want. And I'm sure. Like I said, I'm sure they make video engagement very high Yep. In their platform. So if you if you surface video before you surface audio, Of course, you're gonna see greater engagement on video than you will in audio. So, you know, I take a tongue in cheek, you know, it's just like their earnings report, you know, they they didn't have a full earnings report in the k, their their adjusted Eb, which I thought is common c, you know,

you know, they... If did they leave some expenses out or well, you know, what did they do? Right. But I Don't. This is this is this is the narrative again, again, how many video podcasts are actually seeing success. You know, and that's, you know, something we're... You're gonna continue to ask podcast. Or is it a like segment of videos, you know, with Rogan doing video. I'm sure people are watching Rogan on there. Oh, with, you know, heavy... No. I do. So... Yeah. That's what

Listen folks. I don't listen to his video. I... You know, I, I just... Map raf, I don't even I'm not subscribed to rogue. I I listened to snippets. So never something Also. Yeah. That's also on Youtube as well as his Yeah. His full shows over there now too. So... And then there was some more to this statement that he made later that... Well, I think we actually mentioned what

a state was it... It it it shows on the screen, but it says where we have video, engagement is even higher than what we have seen when it's audio only. So he's making... The the statement is that the engagement and the content is even higher with the video than it is with the audio. Okay. So engagement it means more views or more listener interactions, you know... I'm really sure

see specific, what that means. Right. Yeah. So if if you're uploading video to the other platform, you take most of your cost are it makes sense for us to So the problem is is then that you... Again, extra work instead of just taking positive. Right. I agree. Yeah. No this extra work. I don't know how... How many podcast are gonna wanting to upload to their host, then upload to Youtube, and then upload the Spotify. Yeah. It takes time because it... There's no

centralized pathway like the audio has. No when you're that can funnel that content into multiple platforms. There is disadvantage. Right? Yeah. There is a tiny... And even on Apple you... And not on Apple on Youtube, you know, you can get your audio over there, but you can't get your video. But his answers is for instance, longer form content tends to do really well on spotify video. Well, who has longer form content and video and Spotify Rogan,

You know, with 3 hour programs. So, you know, who else is doing a long format. Well, if you're uploading the same content as you're uploading to Youtube, it's chances are, it's probably gonna be a long form. Yeah. And video content. So I would imagine that's most of what Spotify has is probably longer form. Of course, it it depends on what you consider to be a long form. 10 minutes or is it, you know, an I very interesting. He says, Spotify is a lean back. Lean back history as a platform?

Do we wanna lean back? Podcasting is a lean in not a lean back. Well, that's that's where this concept of, playlist comes from. Right? And it's the same thing that's been going on on Youtube too. Is that there is automation that's built into the platform. If you don't select another video right away. It'll start playing whatever it wants to start playing Whatever it wants. Yeah. Which tends to be more like television to some degree. Right? And I don't let Youtube do that, but I'm

sure a lot of people do. Yeah. So so I think that Spotify clearly is either seeing, you know, good engagement with video and or they're trying to create it, here a little bit more by Putting out P r that is spinning it to look like it's doing well on the platform. Right? They... I'm sure that they wanna grow engagement. Right, which is Typically code for time spent listening or viewing in this case. Well, again, it's whatever definition they want. They don't define it.

They don't say that we're seeing, 5 times more less hours, then we... You know, they they just say engagement. They really don't define it. So again, it's a very vague But it could be, like, 1 percent more as far as we know. Right. Very vague. So again. I... I'm... You know, I'm the the Dow Thomas here, so I'm, you know... They're also saying say they'll see higher engagement, thereby higher monetization. If I didn't click on that right? Yeah.

Right here. Other words, you... They'll throw more ads at it. Yeah. So that means that That that tells me that that it's it's time spent viewing. Now that's a metric that's very important to Youtube. Too. But if you think about higher monetization with video, Mh. Versus its audio, than next tells you that they're really not paying podcast very much money for their audio monetization, which typically has been... Tells 4 to 5 times or even 6 times as high as what a Youtube Cpm would be.

You know, if you're thinking about getting a 25 or 30 dollar Cpm on audio and they say that they're getting higher monetization on video. And video has always been a much much of lower that just tells you they're not paying very much on these audio listens. Well, I mean, a lot of the monetization. I would imagine this going through Spotify is coming from you know, programmatic and... Yeah. So it's dynamic ad insertion, technology that's that's being put into the content outside or Spotify.

Having not watched any video on Spotify, and I don't have a subscription over there. So I was hosted on Spotify. Then. Yeah. That's where the monetization would come from is through Spotify. Right. Well, it has to be. Mostly. Mostly. I guess you could embed. There's no video. That's not in the video. Oh, could. Yeah. Right. Yes. So you could take the same ads that you're doing host reads that you're putting into Youtube? I'm sure it is. Is that you're putting into Spotify? So

yeah. But then again, people don't like that because then it's baked in, and you can't replace the video. Right. And the same thing with Youtube. Yeah. And, you, you know, as as works Youtube is now, and I don't care about what what whatever your stance is on guns, but on Youtube right now, they just implemented a... What do not monetize. So people that have been on Youtube for years doing Sports shows, anything that has, AGUN in it, a gun in it,

no longer eligible for monetization. So anything you know, now these folks have built their empire on a basket of eggs, and now they're just... You know, they're laying a a puddle of yolk because Youtube is said, okay. We're not paying you no more. And where do they go? They go to Rumble. Okay? They go to Rumble, but are they gonna make as much money on rumble? They were making on Youtube?

And I I think this is just a a wake up call here that, again, you you have to be careful on where you're building your empire. Where you put your listeners at, based on these models, there's no way I would put. I would be promoting as a podcast, having my listeners listen on Spotify. Unless I was on a playthrough and I could monetize myself, But if you submitted your show on Spotify manually, you can't change your ads. They're cashed. Right. So the average podcast doesn't know this.

So people like us just have to continue to at least try to educate folks. Yes. I noticed on Pod news, a day or so ago that it was put out that, I guess, Spotify is mega or or wait a minute. No. Yeah. Mega pounds gonna return to Ie b. Yeah. Yeah. And then also, it looks like Cap is the first podcast host to achieve Ia ab BV2 0.2 certification. Yeah. We we just started ours last week. Okay. So In in a matter of fact, it's just we've been waiting, the auditors have been busy. Obviously, with other

companies. So I'm sure there's a number of folks in line, but I think we've been waiting about 2 months to get started on the went it... Well, we we we applied as soon as 222 0.2 came out, whatever that date was. Mh. So was the 2.2 certification of the Ia podcast metric standard. Is that the first 1 to support the Ip 6? No. Ip v 6 been in there. So it all depends on if you're supporting Ip v 6. We're still we're still doing only Ip before. And the Ip v 6 gets... I don't know.

Amazon does some sort of a conversion, and it shows up as an Ip before. Also... No Me that maybe just yet it's all served Ip before, but we don't have Ip 6 turned done. I also saw that there was some there was a listing in here for blueberry. Yeah. Ai generated clip highlights. Yeah. It's just that a little bit. Yeah. It's basically a poor man's version of headline liner. Got it. So is this... At and T has announced a data breach impacting nearly all of its

wireless Yeah. That's that's an example of it. Yeah. And it's basically, it's either, you know, vertical or horizontal land. It has a wave form, and we've got a bunch of templates people can pick from, and they can pick their colors. I was actually 1 of the test clips that wasn't... I wasn't even too worried about the color match up. So james app for a sample, and I just threw 1 up there. So I'm not too visually inclined. So I'm sure that... I could've picked better colors.

Well, it's the... It's the functionality that you were trying to demonstrate. Yeah. Yeah. Creative talent. Right? Yeah. And and I guess, the main thing too is, you know, now we've got an audio clip generator. We've got a video clip generator. We've got the social. Post creator. We have the

newsletter. We've got the production tool. So we basically have everything and from from end to end, the next month in August, we're gonna give every 1 of our hosting customers a free month access to what we call our Thrive package, which includes the Ai. So it's available for all of our customers for 10 dollars a month. Mh. But includes a whole bunch of other stuff. The thrive package is a a series of features like pre roll advertising and a whole

bunch of stuff like that. So... But, yeah, August where everyone's gonna get a free month that thrived to be able to play with. We gave everyone some free trials, but we were gonna give the whole stack, a a free month of unlimited usage. Awesome. Alright. Wow. Yeah. Keep piling on those Ai features. Right? Yeah. You know. It's less up is not easy too. We've, you know, I've got I've got a list of stuff and you know, starting to do Ai on our analytics stuff.

You know, it's it's the the key, really boils down to is, you know, what is the question you're trying to answer? You can come up with all kinds of ideas, but is it useful to the podcast to be able to say, okay. Here is a analysis of your show that I can reproduce every single day of the week to give you similar results based upon the performance of an episode You know, what can I tell you from that? So, you know, we're we're we're looking now and where where Ai is gonna help in

the statistics? Side and the basic information, actual information we can give, and we got some ideas there, and it it's it's it's kind of 1 thing that Ai is good add is actually using database data. It's really, really, really good using database data. Yeah. And and the math comes out the pretty close 99 percent of the time. So yeah, We'll we'll see. We'll see where it leads, but that's probably where we're headed next. So I also wanted to talk quickly about,

what we also saw in Pod news. This this this came out today. I I believe. And I guess, the Ceo of, was it audio boom? Stuart last said that the changes in apple's Ios 17 update cost them 9000000 dollars. Or 9000000 pounds. Not sure. Which 1 that is. But... And then Aca cast put the Ios 17, update costs at 7200000.0. Well, and, you know, here's the thing. Those weren't real listeners to begin with. So right is story that you've capitalized on is we have more accurate data now.

And we've raised Cpm accordingly because the the content was more valuable? Mh. You know, there's 2 ways to look at this is a glass half full or is it... Is or is it you know? Yeah. I guess, if you look at it from that perspective, Todd, it it doesn't... It's almost like that money wasn't really earned. Right? No wasn't was earned. Right, which isn't... Which is 1 thing that we we're we're trying to avoid by the the the standardization with the Ia ab metrics. Right?

Was... Well, again, it's... Have. We're it's under qualification of the media. Right. So, you know, again, we didn't see Did not... See this big hit like others did because we have a fundamentally different way of doing stats. Yeah. We saw a few percentage points because of just the way some of the changes Apple made were Right. We're definite we weren't seeing this impact of all these repeated retry of downloads. Mh. That what's happening every day, every day, every day every day, every day.

And I think if you look at the Ib, The new Ie spec, there's a section they're talking about anomalies, and having to have an anomaly, you know, what does that mean? What's an

anomaly? Well, you can kinda let your imagination run is that a anomaly could have been why was Apple coming, why didn't people account and reduce the number of downloads that they were that they were billing for when they saw this behavior, which was very evident, that the apple was trying to read down 40 files every day, and failing, you know, and it it it again goes back again to the You know, I... People about crucified me when I suggested that the 1 minute a minimum audio is not enough.

To qualify a download. Right. And yeah. This is really a a little bit of a condemnation of the Ie metric standard too. Right? Well, again, it's, again, you're getting 26 27 30 companies. They're trying to agree on stuff. And when you make a... When Todd comes in and it says we should change the minimum qualification from when 1 minute to, you know, another number, Well, immediately, what they do is in their head, they're doing the math and how much is that cost them. They're revenue.

And we've seen it right here, what what it can cost. Right. And it's significant. I mean... And you meanwhile small numbers. And what they've done is that means their revenue. Their their their their Roi if they were having performance is you know, what percentage of revenue was that. You know, was at 10 percent. So that means that their were podcast or were performing 10 percent better. Then

yeah. You know, whatever that percentage drop is, that means the Roi, if they to build accordingly and not And then they had to remove those downloads, then the performance would have been much higher so you should have been able to go back to the advertiser and say, since this is you know, we've been forming well, and you've been happy paying it 22. And now we're we're counting less, but we have the same performance, give me 24 20. Right. There should been in... This should... But

that's never happened. And anytime these adjustments have happened throughout every time there's been a haircut taken. There's been no adjustments to Cpm. The only people that have won are the advertisers because we can't get out of our own damn way. So, Todd, why do you think that these companies put this information out Is it because that their profit line like babies. Revenues didn't hit their projections. Is that? Maybe... You know, that was their excuse. But in Honesty?

It's it's because they weren't doing good due diligence and weren't keeping an eye on the ball on their metric system. Alright. I I have no sympathy. Yeah. So for audio boom, in h 01:20 24 results, it shows that the the second quarter revenue was up 7 percent in total and adjusted earnings per share profit was, or not per share, but earnings was 1 third of a million dollars. So what they're saying here potentially is that that profit could have been What? 9000000 dollars more?

Well. So that's that's kinda what they're implying there. Boo who? Right. You know, it you even even measuring wrong. You haven't taken into account. There were some groups. To saw this early on, and they took those numbers out of billing. So does there was Ivy meetings where this was discussed. This was known that this was... There was an issue. This was no surprise to nobody. Yeah. Also noticed that audio boom didn't put out who they're hosting their shows with.

Wow, I don't think they're hosting with audio boom. I think they do their own hosting. Do they? Yeah. Okay. So it's arrow fault. Yeah. So So how many other companies had huge hits like this on their bottom lines that maybe we didn't hear about. I know but I can't say. I heard spotify I can't say because, some people talked about. I can... I know which companies that brought it up during the Ib meetings, and said there's an issue here. They sent it to the group. There's 60 people on a call.

Yeah. So this was a known issue. Yeah. I'm sure it was. Right. And the people that caught it, remove those numbers, and they haven't been in the news. Talking about how it lost 9000000 dollars. Yeah. Because possible, some of other companies could have lost more. These aren't the biggest companies in the county. They just didn't bill for the inflated downloads. They knew they were junk. Because these 2 companies are not the biggest ones in the industry.

So, you know, they they took an... They, you know, the the other... And again, I can't say, but they did the responsible thing. Yeah. Yeah. But it does raise the question about the Ie metric standards too. It it it wasn't an Ib issue. Mh. It was purely... They saw the inflation. They saw what was happening in the log files. And they didn't adjust for it or they weren't looking at the data or they stuck their head in the sand saying, hey, you

know, we're gonna... This... It qualifies is we're gonna build for it. Yeah. Again, if you knew if you know, if you've been told that there is an issue if there's an activity going on, then, of course, a percentage of that drop was not because of the activity. Their, you know, percent... The the folks that probably lost the biggest amount of money was still billing against those repeated tries to download episodes day after day after day that they were

having failed downloads. That is where majority probably the money was lost. The simple fact of them changing the way the ios 17 quick... And actually downloads. So how many how many episodes it downloads on back media, that was not the majority of the haircut. Mh. The majority of the haircut come from activity that the app was failing at. So, yes. There... Everyone took 3, 4 percent, whatever it was just in the...

Iowa 17 change that happened because of the way it it basically has set up that does downloads. But again, the majority of this haircut that that this lost of money was more than likely And I can't speak for them. They'd have to speak for themselves was this, again, trying to redo download media that was old.

Yeah. I see in an article, Brian Mo, the Chief Operating Officer for a national public media is quoted to the saying that the The daily shows from National Public radio saw a decline around 10 percent in monthly downloads. But for longer shows, published on other cadences, the the decline was upwards of 30 percent. Those are pretty big numbers. Well, again, Says Odyssey podcast, network showed a 47 percent decline. C showed 60 percent decline.

I. I just I think that's all part of of a fault of their metrics people. Not have an eye on the ball. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And what Apple did in my opinion was the right thing? Like it or not? Yeah. Caught the... You know, I'm gonna win me any friends, but Caught the industry off guard here. It says Did not catch the industry off guard. They knew changes were coming. Okay. Well, they they at... They knew there was an issue with the inflated downloads.

It says here pod track data showed and suggested an average of a 15 percent drop in their numbers for large shows. So anyway, it's what it is. It is what it is. The haircuts continue. That's right. And yet, no increase in Cpm. M Yes. Is there Yeah. Could it be that the media buyers already know what the Roi performance is and just Cpm vendor for vendor? I mean, if you're gonna apply a reasoning and logic as it as the numbers get

more refined and more focused. And more accurate, you would think that the Cpm would go up. Right? Well, or did the did the media buyers and already have a formula applied against each vendor. They... When you're run 20 campaigns across 20 different companies, you know what your Roi should be. And if the Roi is a 10 percent or 8 percent disparity between vendors and guess what you do. You offer the vendor that's not performing as well. And you you give them a 10 percent cut in Cpm. So

the vendors are not stupid. They know when where performance is at on average. I I know the company out of out of Houston. I know they had a item... I saw their spreadsheet before that had everyone listed and the discount they applied. Yeah. So, anyway, we're long here. So Yeah. Rob, because of my audio cut out, I'm definitely gonna need you to send me the audio file as soon as possible. Okay. Yeah. It takes time to get it exported as a local recording. So that's that's what slows me down.

Okay. So I wanted to make a quick... Correction to something that I said in a past episode here, I had mentioned that the the active number of shows that we we were seeing on the 30 day kind of breakout out at podcast, the Podcast index kinda stats area. I think I mentioned 50 to 60 percent decline in the active podcasts that we're showing in there and that's that was not correct.

The actual number that I did some some research on, over a 28 month period, from, like, this week, back 28 months, showed an overall decline over the 28 month curry back to the middle of 20 22 as about 24.8 percent decline in active podcast. Curry were we able to look at the... Were we able to get a number on 60 and 90 days? No. Yeah. I... Because I think where I saw the... Biggest drop was that 60 day or 90 day figure. I can't remember

whatever that lasts. But, you know, it is good to know that it was only 24 percent you James James kicked came back James Rid is the 1 that sent me this data, But, but he shared with me that over the last 18 months, that the decline is around 6 percent. So the biggest the biggest percent of decline happened in that first 6 months. Prior to that. Right. And so what was the start date that you're talking about July of 22? Is that what you're looking at?

The number that I shared... Let's see here if I have it in front of me. It wasn't It was like March of 20 22. Yeah. March of 20 20. Which would have put it 28 months back. Yeah. So, yeah. I think we saw AAA peak of, like, this is the 30 day active shows. Yeah. A peak of around, I think 416000 shows. And I think as of this week, it was, like, 321. Yeah. L's shows. So if if we... So that was about the time Covid was getting over. Yeah. It was toward the end of the

Covid thing. Or Yeah. So I can't remember when we officially kinda came out of Covid and things open back up where people could resume life. But think we're probably... That's about right. Isn't it? Well, I mean, based on based on what the data, I had to go back and actually look at the numbers through the Internet archive or the way back machine? Oh, it can. There wasn't access that James had to the index going back up for iodine then. Right? Well,

a still a significant drop. And in of the majority of that happening the first 6 months since March of 22. Mh. Makes sense because people were getting back to life and stop doing their double shows. So the drop between essentially and James data went back 2 years to July. James went my back 18 months. So we're back 18 months. So the 18 month figure 6 percent? Yeah. Correct. Yeah. But the 21 month was 24 percent. 24 percent. So that's a little more palatable, but it's still flat.

It's not... Yeah. It's not it's certainly not not going up. Yeah. And then, you know, there's a little... Yeah. It goes up and down down the cycles, but he... But if you look at the actual newsletter, the jake even puts out on a daily basis that active show number, multi time, I see it as down, like, 1 percent or Yeah. 0.8 percent or something like that. Would time be a podcast. Yeah. There's more upside opportunity. Right? Is that the Thought pod? Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.

Alright. Right. I'm todd at blueberry dot com. At geek news on Twitter. You can reach me on mastodon at geek news at geek news dot chat. Yeah. And I'm on, x as well at rob green, and, my email address is rob dot green at gmail mail dot com, reach out if you want to, and Also have a Youtube channel as well that you may be watching this program on. So definitely reach out and you know, Share whenever you want. We're we're always open to getting tips about things

or or being corrected when we're wrong. Right. We're definitely open to that as well. Yes. But the 24 percent drop over 28 months is a significant decline in and is 30 day shows. Right. People saying that that's not Doom day or a business to lose 24 percent is that's significant. Yeah. It certainly wasn't 50 percent, which Right. I had in my mind was almost catastrophic. So that's 20 percent from a from a... If I lost 20 or person my business, that's catastrophic.

Yeah. Well, that means there's, you know... Yeah. Cards. Yeah. And I also track that that Pod news kind of show flow chart that that James has too. I don't know if we're we're you seeing shows moving between platforms. Yeah. It's always interesting looking at that to see where the the flows see who's going where? Where... Yeah. Who's losing customers and who's gaining customers. And here's a thing. So a few people actually move. It's really a my number.

Yeah. It is. It's... It's usually each time that I go look at it. It's like, a monthly thing, and it's like, you know, lips and loses, like, 8 people and... Right. Blueberry gaines 3 or something like the government or lose this guy or never. Yeah. Right. We could go either way. We, you know, we've lost some that went away for a couple weeks then come back. You know? That's... Yeah. It can happen. Yeah. Obviously seen not not always greener on the other Exactly.

I thought it was gonna be better over there, but they didn't follow with their email if I'm moving back. Right. Alright. Okay. Everyone. Thanks so much for being here. We'll see you next week. And I'm back state side. So we'll be back at 3PM Eastern. Next? On the phone first. Right? Yeah. We had back to Showtime. Alright. Sounds terrific. Thanks, everybody. Thanks.