Peak Podcasting: Reality or Myth? Exploring Industry Trends #592

Taught and drop in the afternoon. Hey with Todd and dr. Oh, yeah. Hey Todd, We're back. In the num media show. It's been a couple weeks. Yes, we are. Here we are, and the podcasting world is still alive and well. Yeah. That's true. I think it's still here I think we're now anyway. Yeah. So I'm just waiting for my streams to come live, Rob. So... Okay. Well, I mean, I think we're live on all of all my channels right now. So it's it's it's almost instantaneous from what

I... Yeah. Not my not not for not for Facebook and Youtube for me because it's the spool up uptime, but I guess I guess, you know, they're they're starting up now. So if you missed the beginning of the show, I apologize everyone, Rob pulled the trigger really quick. So everyone, how you doing? It doing terrific. I'm trying to minimize the amount of pausing that's on the video when people watch the replay on this. So people

get right into the content. So that's that's a little bit why I jumped the gun on and stuff like this. It's a little bit of a difference. I don't know why yours. Your side of things is is kind of slow. Because you send straight to rest stream. Yeah. Then rest stream has to start. And right. Because you're going direct to Youtube, I'm not you're... And then you. Okay. So it comes 2 step process. Yeah. It comes to me has to spool up reach stream and reshape has to send out. So right regardless

we're lying. Yeah. Right. Right. It's an interesting kind of, you know, kind of conversation because, you know, going going direct has some benefits then going through, like a, like a secondary kind of streaming type platform can offer delays. Right? So it's an interesting contrast there. So anyway, how how ben you've been on the move quite a bit. Yeah. I was back in back in Seattle for for a week or so that helping my dad moved from his house in Bellevue to

to a more of a... Senior living retirement community, kind of a kind of a living situation had a lot of head, like, 40 years of stuff that had to be moved out of the house. But So there's a lot of lot of hard work went into that. You still trying to get out of it. But anyway, yeah. So so it's been interesting kind of time to some degree, you know, there's there's always obviously, knew is going on the

podcasting space. And and you know, what 1 of the things that continues to hit me in the head as I think about the podcasting space right right now is I continue to see this research that's out there, that's kind of pointing to how we've kind of... You know, and I think we've all kind of recognized the the fact that the that podcasting in the Us is is kinda of reaching a maturation phase. I I would think what... Once you have it, like, 80 percent awareness of

podcasting in the in the Us population. That's that's pretty high numbers. I know for many years, we strive to get to 30 or 40 percent, whatever and we were constantly talking to people about what a podcast was. But, that conversation really never happens anymore. So that's that's a little bit of a sign and then also some of the numbers that are coming out about, you know, almost 70 percent. Of the Us population has actually listened to a podcast or what they perceive to be a podcast.

So that... That's a whole another kind of element to that. And I just wonder if And there's nothing wrong with this. It just... I just wonder if we've kinda reached some level of peak podcasting in combination with what's happening with the economy and and what's happening happening with the advertising market in the podcasting space. And just more broadly, what's happening in business in general and media in general. There... There's a big shift happening.

Right? Now. I do think that podcasting is becoming more important to more people in in their lives, and it does seem like bigger shows are continuing to get bigger. And that's that's a good trend as well, but it is... I think a little bit more of a challenging time for new creators getting into the space trying to carve out their their niche. Now that that doesn't make it impossible, but I do kinda wonder

I don't... What's your thoughts on all this research is coming out that's kinda kinda showing that maybe we've we've reached some sort of plateau here and we're not... Move forward, especially around that podcast advertising side, which we seem to have hit that 2000000000 dollar revenue threshold and we can't really seem to get through that. We we've we've been trying for quite a few years now. Well, it is just to be kinda honest. It's the best time ever to be a creator.

You know, the number of of shows creating content right now remain at an all time low. So... Yeah. Well, why is that? As the question? Why why are if you're... It's simple. It's the economy. Right. And at the same time, we have this you know, this hype. That, you know, you had to be on Youtube. And and we're run now, finally, some podcast are starting to wake up, leasing conversations I'm having that you know, it's not all that's... It's been meant out to be as far as

having success with video. So I think that is we're gonna have a little bit of a boomerang factor with that when people find that they've invested heavily to try to do a video podcast, and then don't find success and, you know, it's it's all about creating content. The listeners leadership is is is again, the listeners leadership is at all time High. Continues to grow. Podcasts continue to grow. So this assertion that we're at somewhere at

peak podcasting. I I don't think that's... I don't think we're anywhere near that. Especially on the creator side, You know, you're gonna find at a certain point that you're gonna you're gonna be, tapped out when it comes to, the percentage of listeners, but again, you know, what are listeners and what are content creators? I mean, what are what are people seeking great content. So it just goes hand in hand. You know,

we've had... If you just look at the last 30 days, only 330000 shows have updated in the last 30 days. That's that's that's 50 percent off. Maybe even 60 percent off what it was a year and a half ago, when, that number was close to 600 or 700000 shows. So, you know, IIII just don't believe, you know, I I think it's a great time to be a to be a podcast right now. The numbers are showing it and growth on shows that

that when we're... As we're watching stats, shows are growing at incredible rates right now. So, yeah. I I think the audience is here. I think they're just seeking great content. And if the content isn't great, You're not... It's just like anything else, sustainable superior content is gonna win the day.

Yeah. I think that that is 1 of the other key takeaways too is that the The bar is so much higher now for gathering large numbers of audience, and that's that's 1 of the challenges I think that a lot of new creators are kind of running into is that that level of skill and that level of of sa ness. Right? How to be successful as a podcast has elevated, and that's that's putting on a lot of challenges onto creators to navigate that. You know, and then you think about the complexity of

the the media creation landscape right now. And, I mean, obviously, like, what you've been talking about is it throwing into the mix Youtube is like a whole another, you know, bag of worms that you're throwing into the to the problem that these creators have to face is that if they're they're trying to do a live streaming or they're trying to do, you know, Youtube and they're creating video and they're creating audio and they're trying to optimize what they're doing for all these different

mediums, it's a it's a daunting challenge and to do it right and to do it in a way. I mean, we faced some some feedback on on x this past week about this show and how this show is done.

And and how... You know, and it really reflects that kind of feeling that a lot of people have around, you know, we tend to do this show at at at least kind of, I I think from a perception standpoint, is a more traditional kind of show even though it's live and things like that, but we've been doing live for what, 14 years. Right. Something. So so for us, live is not something new, but it... But for a lot of

newer creators out there. It's like like you've been saying, video is a is a component that is is an extra level of challenge. I think is the honest thing, and it and it may not be the right thing for every creator to jump in with both feet. To do both, You know, and especially to do live on top of that. You know, it's still a small percentage though. You know, It's it's a higher percentage than it was. If it was 3 percent of shows were doing video before now, maybe 5 or 6 percent.

A show that it includes a video component. Yeah. But again, you know, we see no slowdown in the number of shows that are that are launching. They're are starting new podcasts. It's just not at the forward pace that it was during Covid, and we got spoiled during Covid too. On the number of new shows that were created and saw this, you know, this exponential growth. True. So things are things are back to normal when people are living their lives, and they don't have time to do 3 shows anymore.

They're doing 1. And but again, I think I I think we have to be careful in saying that we're at peak podcasting because I think maybe from a listener standpoint, we might be, but also, listeners are also they have a lot of options right now. They've got a lot of things that they can, you know, tune into. They can tune into Tiktok. Instagram, real... I mean, just goes on and on and on, the mono content that they can consume. So... Right. Lots of choices. Yeah. They're

and in an... And I and I really think that's a good thing. So again, I think anyone that wants to create a podcast that's considering a podcast, it it still. It still remains the best time ever to start as far as a pure Right. Pure audio podcast. Because Nothing from a... Oh, go go talk Just it's just... The the the lift to get started is almost nonexistent existent anymore. Yeah. It's easier. No. It's easier some. Right. You know, we're looking at... It's easier,

but, yet, it's it's it's so easy. It it it it doesn't... I guess, doesn't instill the amount of challenge really. That that is really inherently there to grow audience. I think what made the technology part of it easy. Growing growing an audience again is is that age problem that people have been asking since the beginning. Yeah. You have to work. Yeah. And any any any any suggestion that there have people are having a harder time now growing an audience.

In my opinion, that's total hog wash because look at the tools you have now to grow audience. I mean, it's it's incredible. All we had before was a website. So now you've got all this opportunity to promote a show and get recognition and be discovered. So, you know, for someone to say, oh, I've Having trouble growing my audience. Well, maybe it's the content.

You have to look at that close. I just don't III don't buy the the the excuse now that I'm having challenges building an audience, those that want to build an audience that are dedicated to it, are gonna build a great audience. And again, what is the number that they're looking for? III think it has to all be put into perspective, people want instant success these days. And shows no 1 has instant success on any platform.

I Yeah. I... And I think 1 1 topic that came up on on x as well, It it it it kinda came up in my mind as I was thinking about some of the things as kinda newer people to the medium look at podcasting. They see a certain kind of perspective on where the podcast medium is right now. And it does tend to lean a little bit heavier on more kind of modern concepts around podcasting. And it doesn't really have always a a lens to what the foundations of this medium

are really built on. And I guess, 1 of the things that I I created was a kind of like a 4 point list and thought I wanted to bounce them off you to see if you agree with them is that, there there there's only like, 4 things that have really changed in podcasting in the last 20 years. Right? I think anyway, and and, you obviously may have a different take on it or an additional thing or something like

that. But I I pointed out really 1 the number 1 1 is ease of posting an episode via, you know, online tools, you know, for audio and video to Rs feeds. Back when we started, we didn't have that. Well, we had ease of posting. We didn't have ease of our assessment creation. Yeah. Exactly. It's the publishing process. And what I'm talking about now. It's, you know, creating a post in an Rs feed. We had to hand cob that. So what 1 of the big things that has come is the ease of doing this. Right?

And but right I I have I hand coded feeds for, like, 2 months. You know, I know It didn't last. It didn't last that. So the... That was... So this consideration that we hand coded feeds for years no. It it it didn't know. I got saying... Yeah. I'm not saying that we did, but Lip actually was the first podcast host and date They started making that available and was it, late 2004. So it was only a few months. Yeah. But that kinda of technology was There was some other tools Yeah. There was

that made. Movable type had AAA plug of sorts, and I was on movable type for many years. And then wordpress course had from... You know, from its inception almost had a you, had some tools or I had to plug in. So yeah. I think that you know, it's trying to play up the the innovations it's well it's has has happened with the podcast hosting platforms that have made all this so much easier than it was when it's So... I think from a posting standpoint, you still have to write a title still

have to write a blog post. Oh, yeah. You know... The basics are still... The base it's it's just the pure basics. You know. So from that perspective, it hasn't changed in 20 years. It's it's definitely easier by the number of, providers out there. That are, yep. You know, making it easy to publish the show. Yep. And then number 2 is Ad tech. And dynamic ad insertion. Oh. And the the attribution

stuff and the brand safety stuff. I think those are that's like the second biggest change that has happened, because back in the early days of this medium and quite... For quite a few years. I mean, I I started working on dynamic ad insertion technology back gonna work for podcast 1 back in 20 14. I I think we did DAI at blueberry for, It's been a little. I had it for a long time. We never used it. Yeah. 12:12 or 13 years. So we we've had it a long long time.

No. It's still not a product that is used by the majority of shows. It's still... Even a show. Even a minority of shows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's still... I mean, And, you know, and usually, it shows that have grown significantly. You know, they... They're big shows. And, you know, the the the... Here's this, you know, here's the fact that still continues to this day, 90 percent of shows delivered 90 percent of their lifetime downloads in the first 96 hours.

So you know. You know. So Da for those 10. Doesn't really help that much. It doesn't... You know, it it does from the simple pack that the ads are there anymore, later on, they get removed to a higher percentage of shows that than they were before because you know, I've got thousands of episodes where the ads are baked in, and I'm I'm never worried about pulling them out. Right? Actually, a lot of ways, I think Da has made it possible to to have more advertising in your show than

you would normally. And in and if you look at the ad tech, you know, right now, Ga is in trouble. They are... Well, Haven't heard that What's what's going on with? They've been called to the carpet in Congress, but being, you know, basically, having moderation. Well, they're classifying some content that is right leaning negatively. So They've been biased. Yeah. So they've they've they've have bias in there. So, you know, the ad tech goes both ways. It's it's good and bad.

Yeah. And the attribution stuff kinda carbs into privacy issues too. So it's it's a little bit of a, you know, some of this ad tech stuff, and I know you... It's a it it's a soar subject. Well, again... It's only for a small number of shows that actually employ it. You know, Yeah. Less than 10 percent of shows. I'm sure are using any type of ad tech whatsoever.

But, yet, there is a subset of the podcast industry or community whatever whatever that really relies on this stuff, and it's really core to what they do, which is in some ways, relatively new phenomenon as well, that that we've we've developed kind of this secondary kind of industry around podcasting that really didn't exist going back that far. I mean, I think and and and yet, they can't get beyond 2000000000 dollars.

Well, that was my bigger point of of this kind of like this this kind of peak that I was talking about. I mean, it seems like we keep hitting that 2000000000 dollar number and we never quite ever get over, and I know that the forecasters, you know, like, like, a lot of the bigger media, Ia and others keep forecasting. Like, well, it's like, they're even forecasting for 20 24 that we're gonna be up 12 or 13 percent in 20 24, and I'm like, back up to 2600000000.0.

But like we've said on this show many times, it's like, I think we've seen that projection like the last 5 years yeah. And it's... We've never gotten there. So I don't know if it's gonna happen this time, but I think considering 20 23 showed a 5 percent increase. In add ad revenue, I think it's a stretch to think that we're gonna get 12 percent in 20 24, given the market. Yeah. I think it's it's definitely you know, an aspirational

kind of projection... If any political advertising trickle down into podcasting, that'll help this this year, but, you know, that's gone next year. So that's, you know, maybe a little bit of more ad spend that comes in because of that, but politicians have not traditionally advertised and podcasting. We don't get that windfall that radio and television does. So... And and I think part of it too is is a lot of people don't wanna political ads on the show even if it was available.

Yeah. I mean, I I do appreciate these these research companies kind of like wanting to be, you know, positive and, you know, try and convince advertisers that this is a good medium. And if you put out big numbers like that. Maybe there's a certain amount of bump that can happen from people getting a perception that I wanna get in you know, get on the bandwagon and with a winning medium. Right? What's growing and doing

well. Well, it's spirit... But, you know, with the people that are advertising and radio are definitely not shifting their dollars directly in the podcasting. There isn't this linear switch. And coming Kinda connection between those 2 things. I think it's because there's so many options now in places to advertise. Yeah. You look at the the bombardment of advertising you get on Facebook. Mh, you know, it in in your in your timeline if you're It's it's ridiculous at the load count.

Yeah. And you look at Youtube. If you're not paying for premium, the load count, that's in Youtube is just insane. And it's like, watching watching television. You know, every 7 minutes, boom. You know, you're gonna Very. It's not even, you know, joined with easy transitions either. It just barges right in the middle of the content. So, you know, they they've they've made it so intrusive that they, you know, it's forcing people

to pay them. If they wanna watch content on Youtube forcing them to pay. Yeah. No. I'm sure that's a better model for... Well, and there's something there's some podcast that have ad loads that way too. And some of the edison stuff that just not excuse me, sounds proper stuff that just came out, you know, indicates that you know, there's a little bit of a tendency to, you know, we're starting to see.

You know, it's not... It's not completely an issue at this point, but there's there's hints that it's an issue. Always, as far as over saturation of ads? Yeah. Yeah. You yeah. Think it has been a danger of that with programmatic for a long time. Well I've been seeing that that growing least too easy. Did... I don't hear an overloading a programmatic. I hear overloading of host red ads. Oh, host rad. Yeah. Okay. What's happening there too. Yeah. Looks huge.

You know, some of these shows have, you know, 8 09:10 ads in them. There's a lot more money in the host reads stuff. Yeah. Typically. So I guess the but the a bit of sense. But the programmatic, even on our end, the most you can opt into is too. Per per break. Right. Well, 2 2 total. Total for the whole... It doesn't matter how long the Right. Episode is? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. You know, because, you know, we're causing

it. Not all the platforms are that or all, but that's why I get And that's why I'm in stop listening to some shows. Just because of the ad loads, But it's mostly hosts reds. It's not programmatic that I'm hearing these high ad loads in Okay. Well, there's no kind of, you know, insertion limit there on the on the... Well, it's not the regular host read if they're using Dynamic go ahead and But if you're hearing... If if it non Youtube bill, that's truly the programmatic, you know,

bombarding you. Hell zone. Right? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Totally. And and if you go. But I was gonna say if you if you're... In if you haven't been subjected to a Youtube ad load, you would be shocked if you're not paying, how heavy it really is at this point. Yeah. And the third 1 that I picked as far as big things that have changed is spotify entering the the medium. I mean, if I think back... To the impact of even Microsoft and Facebook and Google and all those... I

don't think that they... Any of those equate to the impact that that Spotify has had on the podcast medium, whether we like it or not, I think that that was a big inflection point in the podcast medium. And then and then the the recording of audio and and video, you know, the tools getting cheaper and easier to use and and has has really kind of fundamentally changed the the medium, Like, being able to do this show with a browser based tool is something

that didn't exist in the past. And and so you can you can see where the technology has really made it a lot easier now. You know, these these road caster or what whatever had just has so much integrated technology into them that, you know, I had to build out, you know, 20000 dollar studio to do the things even even partially what I'm doing right in my little, you know, 400 or 500 dollar road broadcaster or, you know, it's it's it's remarkable is what it is.

Well, you know, if you think about how long we've been doing video. The tools. The browser based tools have been there for a long time. Think about when we were using B or you stream. Right. Or lab? The lab? Oh, yeah. Blah. Maybe it was blah. Some. But, you know, some of those did require a rt t stream. So some of them were not a hundred percent browser base, but Yeah.

You know, I'm I'm worried We're gonna go the other way and browser based stuff with what Stream art is just done recently and removing pricing for their product, and you know, there's there's some question on what's what's gonna happen with Stream. Are they gonna roll that into a new product you know, but they remove... You know, we'll see what happens, but it's definitely easier.

If you look at Yeah cap 8 and all the other tools are out there for recording, definitely easier to do person to person interviews without having to have a studio for sure.

Yeah. And there's there's other tools out there too that are you know, are are are competitive to to stream 2 that are doing, you know, very similar things like Riverside and squad cast and And and a new 1 that's gonna be launching here soon is called new basic media, is a new kinda of live streaming platform that's that's gonna be launching it at the end of the month. And there's open source tools too. So stuff that's not tied to us. The Ob tool which. Yeah.

Extremely capable and that's actually completely free. Trying to think of the other 1 that is the people have Don't use this much anymore. Oh my god. It's wire cast. Oh, wire cast. Right. Yeah. And then and then there's rest stream too, which is pretty pretty powerful. Yeah. And rest stream, you know, and I use, obviously for just 1 1 stream in multi stream out. I probably don't use half of the functionality of of,

of rest stream. But again, those do require a little bit more tech avenue and sending you know, in our T p's feed to it. Yeah. Oh, 0 to kinda jump back on the earlier topic, Todd, where you had mentioned about how listeners may be slowing a little bit. The the research out out there from Edison does show that from 20 22 to 20 23, listeners relationship grew by 5 percent, which is, you know, it from a historical perspective, that's a pretty good clip.

Because if you go back and in in time, typically, it's usually around 3 or 4 percent, is is what we have typically seen on a yearly basis of listeners growth. But from 20 23 through what we know so far in 20 24, only up 3 percent. So so that may be a sign that maybe a listeners relationship maybe kind of, you know, plateau a little bit now. Again slow that could also be just a temporary blip because we've seen that fluctuation. Yeah. Over time too. Some years it goes up. 3

or 4 percent. Some years it goes up 6 percent. Some years... You know, so it's this back and forth thing. As long as it's plus up every year, but there is a there is a ceiling to this, Todd. I'm not sure that it's. But It's been a so many people. It's been a long time since I run into someone that did not know what a podcast was. Not necessarily that they are listening.

You know, be... Again, because of the perception now that, you know, everything's up a podcast, you know, no matter where you listen or watch, you know, everything is considered a podcast now. So... Yeah that's true. Especially in the the research that's coming out continuously hammering this this thought that you know, Youtube is the dominant podcast consumption.

Yeah Well, okay. I mean, they they can they can keep on selling the Youtube marketing speak per s. But but again, How why do you think that the that that is going on? Mean, is it all a fraud do you think? Or... Well, where's the numbers Where's the numbers? Where... I'm not saying it's fraud. Where's the numbers? Where where are where are all of these listeners and viewers? Where where are they?

If you look across 90 percent of shows or 95 percent of shows on Youtube, they have almost no no no uptake. So that... Yeah, There are shows that are very, very popular. Mh. That are doing gang buster numbers. You know, millions of views, but that doesn't trickle down. It's not trickling down. So what what you have is a mh. A a very concentrated audience on a few shows on Youtube. And if Few shows probably 2 or 300.

Shows on Youtube that have this high concentration of listeners and viewers, but yet, if you look at the average Joe or Jane, podcast on Youtube. They don't... They're not getting... They're they're definitely getting more listens than they are on podcast apps, then they are on then they are on Youtube. So again, you've got a high percentage of audience concentrated on a small number of shows they're definitely driving this this narrative. So have you watched podcast podcasts on Youtube.

Yeah. Sure. But it's 1 of, like, 2 or 300 shows. And again, you go much deeper than that. Those numbers don't Don't translate down downward into the majority of shows that are on Youtube today. Yeah. This this study came out. It's the spring 20 24 report from c media and signal hill insights called the the podcast download. And it it talks about in this this report I haven't found the slide yet, but says Youtube is the most utilized podcast listening platform in the Us, say 31 percent.

Of its surveyed. Again, a high... A 21 percent said Spotify and 12 percent said apple. Again, a high number of people concentrated on a small number of shows. So I have no doubt that the survey data they're getting is right. But it doesn't translate downward into the average podcast. Yeah. I mean, I think the I think you have to look at this data from what it really says it's telling you and that's... Youtube is the most utilized podcast listening forms in the minds

of 31 percent of people out there. That are listening to a constant cons... The concentrated number of Well, they think that they're they're consuming a podcast. Well, they they are Then in they are, and it's fine. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna argue about the definition of podcasting. But again, Right they are in their mind, but again, it is concentrated to a relatively small number of shows. Mh. So I have no doubt that their people are saying this.

Yep. But at the same time, the spotify phenomenon, what we're starting to see now, And we've seen this growing over the past year is spotify podcast per s, wanting greater flexibility to produce their shows. So while they're still seeing success on Spotify, they're not in this those a lot of shows are moving from hosting on Spotify, successful shows that I wanna grow and have more tools they're moving to more traditional podcast host per s, just because of the breadth of of tools available.

And yet, they came out this number that, you know, they're posting this number of video on Spotify, and I have yet. Have you watched a video podcast on Spotify? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I watch Joe. Well, rolling and Okay. So Right. I I just don't see... I love to know what people's uptake numbers are because those those numbers are not at all public. I how people are doing on spotify video. Again, it's It's it's a interesting interesting move here.

Yeah. I found a slide that that was part of that deck that I'm getting earlier And it says a tale of 3 studies. It says a weekly podcast consumers use Youtube and Spotify most often. It says here on this study, It shows the c media signal hill insights shows 31 percent Youtube, 21 percent, Spotify, 12 percent apple. The digital needs to be asked is what podcast? Are you listening to on Youtube, which podcast are you? And I'm sure it's pretty more broad on Spotify.

I think that question needs to be asked. Because when I still, today, look at the consumption numbers, at least in my statistics, you know, Apple is still from a total listener number, still... That's a download number. Yeah. But still, it's it's it's it's about 50 percent. Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's tracking different data than what these folks are tracking. Eat So... Yeah. It's not it's it's not comparable. They're and they're really asking, you know,

how many people listen on Spotify. And if if if Spotify is driving listens, that's that's great. You, I have no doubt people are listening Spotify, but people are not listening to this show on Spotify. Yeah. And then the other 2 studies in here, Triton digital podcast metrics Yeah. 34 20 plus quarter 01:20 24 shows you Youtube 34 percent, which is even higher than the chemo 1 at 31 percent. And then spotify at 27 percent and apples at 13 percent, which is slightly higher. But

again and most research. It's it's the perspective. You can throw these numbers out all day long. But is that is that is that trickling down to the average podcast. It's not. Well, okay. These are... I'm not talking about podcast right here. They're talking about consumers. Can consumers. Podcast. But again, what they're receiving is... Yes. But when you tell a podcast... Experiencing. When you tell a an a podcast who is not They just hear a number. Third 34 percent of podcasts are being

30 34 percent of. They the way they hear it is, 34 percent of podcast podcasts are being consumed on you Youtube. Well, that's mh not true. But there's a that there is a... Not what this number should not telling anybody. But that's the way they perceive it. That's right. That's how now this the podcast perceives. And there content creators out there that are making decisions based on this data. Right. And they're making a prioritization decision and choice based on this data.

Even the Edison research shows a pretty high percentage for Youtube at 27 percent Right and Spotify at 29 percent. Again. Seamless and Triton and Edison. Need to go to the next step? They need to go to the next step and say okay, what are the top 10 shows that you're watching on Youtube. And I guarantee you that will be a very concentrated number of shows. Yeah. That will make that list. So I think while the audience is there, and

they're discovering podcast are there. If you look at the billions, and I used say that, you know, big word billions of downloads that are happening, the majority of the actual listening to podcast podcasts are still happening in additional podcast apps. Yeah. And I'm sure that there's a lot of consumption happening in the in the Youtube platform of consumers that think that they're consuming a podcast. I think they just a

Youtube channel. But I think... I, you know, I think again, I'm not going to try to to to to defend the definition of a podcast because then we... Were the t again. So, again, if they're cons... If they think they're consuming a podcast on Youtube great. That's fine. Again, it's a concentrated number of those types of shows on, again, I think people have to take into account that this is what consumers are saying, not exactly where the actual download numbers are coming

from you. Yeah. Right. Yes. It's a different kind of data. Is what what it is. And this slide is interesting too because it It plays on another aspect of it 2. It says you Youtube is the number 1 most used platform among consumers regardless of tenure of heavy use. So what what they're saying here is that if you're AAA podcast newcomer. Mh. That's 32 percent or or or seeing Youtube. If you're a podcast pioneer 31 percent. So the number is slightly less. Yeah. Right?

But if you're a heavy podcast consumer, it's actually It parity with the with the newcomers. But the question again, then is what are they the listening. It's true, but what are they listening 2, or watching. You know, there again, It's it's about context. Well, are you saying that because you're trying to factor in a a total percentage of the podcast space? Is what you're trying to calculate here because it's all about what people think that they're. Okay. So... Okay. I I understand that. But

Mh. Just Blueberry alone. We have over 300000000 listens of content every month. Right. So you take whatever Lips has, whatever pod bean has, whatever buzz pro has, whatever red circle has, add all that up. To the total number of where the actual people are consuming the content in a in a quote unquote traditional way and then you roll that back into... And maybe that number's is equal on Youtube. Because you have a concentrated number of shows that are getting incredibly high numbers.

So so maybe, there's a billion, let's say, a billion listens on traditional podcast apps, and a billion video views. Some... But again, if there's a billion of podcast listens across 330000 shows, There's a much different percentage of of listens. It's so this... Let's say it's a billion on Youtube. Just podcast. Okay okay. People that consider a show a podcast on Youtube. I bet you that's constrained to no more than a couple of thousand shows.

Yeah. I could I could totally see that Especially if those shows are a very popular. Yeah. Video shows on on Youtube and they they're like us right now. 2 people or 3 people talking on a microphone. But if and and if you look at the Youtube podcast area, there's not as show in that listing at all that is audio only. There's no there's no there's none. Yep. So Right. That makes... Makes sense when you think about it, Right? What is Youtube strength? Youtube strength

is a is a video platform. So when you... And again, you look at the numbers on those particular shows, that are in that section. Yeah. They're incredible. There's some incredible numbers in there on some of those shows, but yet not so incredible that it overcomes at least if I just do it, a quick count. You know, if we if we do the math, which we probably could. Again, it's a very, very concentrated in very

few shows. I, So this is the thing I keep trying to tell podcast when they are talking about me, should I do video? Yeah. You do video if you wanna do video. But please have a realization that your audio listing numbers are always gonna be higher then your video numbers are going to be for the most part for most shows. Mh. And even this show, we run about 70 30. Out. Yeah. 70 percent listened, you know, about 30 percent, actually watched the traditional

video podcast podcasts. It's a true video podcast. So. We're talking we're talking about this topic a lot. Well, because it is top of mind. I mean, it's like at the top of all the resources coming out. Todd, and And I think people need to dive into it a little bit. It's like, this particular of this slide I have up on the screen. It may be a little hard to read. I can probably kinda zoom in a little

bit more on it. But it says in April 20 24, it says, there's been a trend line of Youtube and Spotify having been growing amongst newcomers at the expense of Apple podcast. But again the trend line here, and then it's been growing. Looks like you Youtube is at 32 percent and spotify at 18 and apples at 6. So so the top 20 24. The problem though is when you throw a slide like this up there. Again, the perception is, well, all the content consumption is happening on

Youtube and Spotify. Well, it's not. It's not happening on Youtube or Spotify. The majority of the consumption over 50 percent is still happening on Apple podcasts in a pure download listen metric. Most of the services are hovering in and around 50 percent. So and some have went a little below, but still, To say, that... So there's this disconnect here between percentage of actual... You know I I'd be curious to know, Okay, Triton. How much are you billing?

Yeah. You're you're you're an audio platform. Okay, Triton. How much are you billing, how much money are you making on Youtube? You know, where is like... Well, increasingly total, these agencies that are selling advertising are are are bundling Youtube numbers with podcast podcasts now smart. In there. It chose to advertise if they have shows that are doing substantial numbers, they should be. Both. Yeah.

On both. Right? But at the same time, I bet you those numbers are... I bet you they're not getting the same Cpm on those Youtube views as they are in podcast listens. So I... I'm just trying to pay devil's advocate here and making sure that you know, people are Are paying attention to the context of the data. And again, I'm not doubting the numbers of percentage of of consumption? But again, where is

it concentrated at? I think Tom Webster made a recently had put something up about this type of a, phenomenon as well. You know, It's this this consumption is really concentrated at the very, very top. And within those platforms. And, but he's also been very much amongst the research that's showing that a, Youtube is is really kind of starting to lead the way around. But again, a context. We have to make.

We have to give them... We have to give the correct context of how is that trickling down to the average podcast? How is that Yeah. Because if you if you tell a podcast that 31 percent is discovery, okay. Discovery... Discovery of what number of shows. Again, it's a small number of shows. Yeah. But this is an overall number from the people that they're doing a survey? Right. Right. To say, where are you most likely discovering on your podcast or a podcast? Yes.

It... You know, that... These are what the numbers that are coming back showing. It makes sense. It's not AAA metric of consumption. No not at all. Of... Yeah. Discovery and finding something that may be interesting. But again, it's concentrated continues to be concentrated at the top because Youtube has got a log rhythm, and they will surface popular shows. They will surface popular show is in people's speeds. And of course you're gonna discover stuff.

But again, it's a concentrated number of you basically, the rich keep getting richer on Youtube. The popular shows continued to grow and continue to build audience at the at the detriment, not at the detriment, but just, you know, the the the the average Joe Podcast

is not getting discovered on Youtube? You asked your audience, how did you discover me those of you that are building actively on Youtube, and I guarantee you 9 out of 10 will say that they discovered you from a recommendation or potential search, they did not discover you on Youtube. Whereas, if you have a big Youtube channel, It's probably the opposite. 90 percent of the people probably said, oh, I found you right here on Youtube.

That's because they're because of the el log pushing those big shows into people's feeds. So Yeah. And the... You know, and again, I'm not I'm not poo poo These content platform consumption platforms as long as it's driving numbers. It's great in building awareness, but it builds a false narrative for someone that's researching and and doing their initial, you know, initial planning on how to do their podcast. Oh, I have to have a Youtube channel.

Well... Yeah. I think, Todd, also what's going on here too and and this research, and I Haven't found the slide for it yet, but I saw it in the notes it says, those who discover a podcast on Youtube say they stick with the platform for the video. So Right. What we may be talking about here really is kind of 2 different audiences, 2 different types of consumption audiences. Right? Those that like video and those that

like audio. Yeah. And and there is this kind of this audience out there that likes to do a little bit of both. Sure. Right. And and that's the research that I haven't really seen yet is is what's that distribution? I mean, what's the percentage of people that are primarily video podcast consumers? And what's the percentage of audio podcast consumers? On how do we kinda parse that data between the 2 and how many are doing both? Well, you you look at Youtube They do not surface.

Good luck finding an audio only podcast you have to you have to know the show that's audio only on Youtube. You have and, you know, go look at those shows on Youtube. Look at their numbers. It's... Well, you know? It's it's kinda silly. Isn't it to put audio up on a video primary platform? Well, that's right. That's you know, that's what Youtube sold is a... You no. Agree. It does make a lot of sense to me. So You know. So

you know, you know what? They don't support, you know, Rs ingestion of a video. No. But they convert an audio file to a video file. Right. Which it... Which even makes less sense for the more you think about it. Yeah. So it's it's Yeah. I mean, it's it's completely asked backwards and then what what what what what we talked about, you know, what Spotify is doing.

Yeah. Where there's they're taking in the audio podcast and they're giving now podcast is the option to replace the audio file that's been delivered to them via assess with a video file. Right. Yeah. It's also kind of wack as well. Right? Yeah. They don't want you leaving the platform. They wanna contain that data. They wanna contain and market to your audience because they have all this data. And that's another thing podcast have, you know, like, you know, used to be we're worried about

list or privacy. Well, you know, that's that's not even a topic anymore. Yeah. So if you're on Spotify, you've completely sold out your audience. Right to Spotify. You know, you you you basically handed handed their, you know, their their their, you know, their privacy to them. Right. Yeah. That's true. We'll, here, Todd over the last probably 24 48 hours. There was a threat of conversation that had a little bit of focus on this show, And I thought maybe I would

I would raise it. It was done on x, and, I exchanged you know, messages about this, and and it was done with John at, John podcasting on x. And and his thoughts are once the live show is done, and he was... I think he was referring specifically to this show, but I think he thinking about it more more philosophically from this concept of doing a live show. And whether or not it's worth it to do a live show.

I I think it's kinda like 2 parts to his commenting, but you know, his his thought was we should edit this show for replay. Right. So any kind of ability that we have to edit this program prior to going out as either an audio or video podcast. I do try and do

that with this show sometimes. And and... But but also, you know, realize that when this goes out live, we don't inherently touch it once once it goes out live, and I I do know that Youtube has the ability to get and do some editing of it but then you're posting a new version and it's it's kind of kind of a mess, You know, until Youtube kinda gets their act together off... If if John has, if John would like to edit shows and donate his time.

Great. Well, todd, I won't work kind of doing it Right right now. You know, and and I... I don't think that people are seeing that because they're they're watching the the replay off of x and Linkedin and... They're not. So and who's did consumption beyond this live is very minimal. We get the majority of our talk... Up to 3400 plays off of my channel this. Alright. I get Less than a hundred. So no. But But people are seeing this show on replay off of x Linkedin,

and you Youtube. If you go in and you add up all the numbers on all those platforms at least off of my channels. It's it's a couple thousand per episodes. So there are people that are watching. I don't know how long they're watching right. Right? That's a whole... I don't know how about how long they're watching on Apple either. Right. And and so John's point was I don't get the point of leaving all the fumble and dead air, and and it's... Well, good good luck editing video. You know?

If I had... It's audio too. I mean, that can be edited on the audio side, separately Yeah. And it and it sounds like shit when you do that. Because all the all the air is gone out of the show when you start compressing every every blank spot and taking air out of the audio. Mh. It you can tell it's been edited. You can tell it's just it it... The pacing is not the same. So... It says that you guys are supposed to be leaders, and your show comes across like 2 old white dudes

reading the Internet. Well... Okay. So here's the thing... True to some degree. Here's the thing. Right. Into his argument. If you have time to edit, edit it. If you want to survive and be able to continue to create content for 20 years, and put out a show every week, for 20 years or 2 shows a week, like... Or for me, for 3 shows a week, total, or even 4 because I'm doing a blueberry, which we do edit the blueberry version of my... Of the show that I'm involved in.

You have to say what is that worth in your time? And I, I'm too busy. I I don't have time Right to edit. And Yep. Todd, todd, that you have to admit that there is a ideology out there that's covered to that. Great. Great then they can knock knock themselves out, knock themselves out and and and edit it edit it away. Right. I'm not gonna do it. And... That's a beauty. That's a beauty of podcasting. I can do it my way, and the he can do

it. His way. Oh, like, now now this is from a guy that has 884 followers on an x. So Yeah. You know, I'm not so sure that I'm gonna take advice on my podcast, from someone that has 884 followers on on X. So Again. I told him that, you know, we we've been doing this show this way for,

like, 14 years. Yeah. And that, you know, it's it's worked out fine for us, and we've been okay with with what we've been doing right for a long time, and he wrote back saying, just because you've been doing something a long time doesn't mean much. I are you may have been doing it wrong all along. Oh, well, you know, then then if we've done it wrong all along, we have...

We will have paid the price and not building a bigger audience, but at the same time, we are doing a show that has a limited reach. We're not doing a show for the for Joke public. No. This isn't a show that's ever gonna get you, huge. No. It's never gonna be a joe oregon program. You know. Right? I think, you know, the top the top number of downloads we've ever ever had for the show was closer. 20000. You know, that would be, like, very, very high

on the consumption standards. It's probably you when we had The 2 folks are Facebook owners. Actually no. It's the... Was it Google? Our worst shows are when we have a guest. Alright. Now so. Yeah. Well, you know, the the top show, the top episode of this on Youtube on, my channels was over... I think it was 3600 views, and it was us talking about podcasting in Youtube. Oh, of course. Because everyone is searching for that. Right so. Right. Everybody it was extremely meta to the platform.

And and it's like, there was another person clone flu, made a comment even the thread to people waste years of repeating the same mistakes that because they're too proud to learn. Be helpful. You don't know everything. We don't mentor knowing everything. I don't. Totally. That's exactly what I told you. You know. And in in in the Beauty, we're doing a show that we can do that sustainable. Right? You know? But also, you know, people have to be careful about being judgmental about other people.

You know, and it's also, you know, trying to decide what's right and wrong, is is kind of a slippery slope. I mean, I'm not sure that, you know, each person... I mean, this is what podcasting was built on was kinda of, like independent free choice, and this is blank canvas. Now granted, people have different ideologies around what's good content, what's bad content. What's the right thing to do and what's the wrong thing to do. And that's been the interesting part of this medium for all these

years? Is it nobody has really the perfect answer... When I was at pot Asia, session after session after session was talking about, this is the things you have to do. This is what you have to do. You know, dictating, this is what you have to do to have a successful podcast. I get up there and said, listen. You do you. You build a show that country you want. You can do what you

want. There's no rules. And I got the biggest round of applause from the audience and basically saying, you don't have to do what is a cookie cutter show that you're being told to do. Okay. Someone's found the proven strategy, maybe, But when someone tells save work for them, but that doesn't mean we work for you. When someone tells me you have to do this, I say, okay. Show me your successful show. Right. Show me your show in how it's been so successful.

And and I will take a look. But if your show is not more successful than my show and you're telling me I have to do things exactly this way. Pack sand. You know, I'm... Again, yeah, this is this is the beauty about this median. I don't have to have a Youtube strategy. I don't have to have a podcast strategy. I do the show the way we want to do the show, and we put it out the way we wanted to put out. Hasn't hurt us... And then, we're not getting paid to do this. We don't have a sponsor

for this podcast. Right. Yeah. And, maybe we are 2 old white guys. But we've been doing for much. We can do about that. So I could, you know, we doing this for 20 years. I must be doing something right with my tech show. I Godaddy is still sponsoring it for 19 years straight. So there must be something I'm doing correct. No 1 else can say that we had the same sponsor for 19 years. Hell that's certainly true. You know? So, you know, show me... I can say that. Show me

the money. If you if you have such a successful formula. And I and I got the Godaddy sponsorship before there was a blueberry. Or Rob voice. That came that that that dad came before I was running a company. Mh. So, it is what it is. And that's a beauty about this medium is you, you do you. Right.

Right. It's true. And I do think that that's that's the key takeaway from this whole thread of the conversation as it I think there's a tendency in the more recent years of people being very, like you said, very rigid, judgmental trying to, you know, build and let's say, a consulting business to say, well, I know how to do this better than anybody else so pay me, and I'll be your consultant. Right. I'll I'll tell you how to do every little aspect of this.

And it's it... I find it to be a difficult conversation being being a a podcast consultant because there is no 1 way to do this. Right? And I'm not an expert at... I mean, I've been doing podcasts a long time, but I wouldn't say that I'm an expert at to tell every person exactly what to do and that will make them success The biggest cringe, the biggest cringe that my team gets is when the phone rings and the person on the other end is a consultant.

If if if if if we had... I I could give 1 of my support people a raise. If if we just... Every time someone called and said they were a consultant. I and we put 10 dollars in the kitty, and the an, it causes because... Well, they might be good video editors. But the majority of them don't know Jack about the overall podcasting space. They might be great audio editors. But they don't know Seo. They don't even know what a feed is. They don't know... I mean, it's just it just is amazing to me.

The number of so called experts that are out there that are selling their ware and hate to say it. They're making it up as they go because they don't know. Well, I think it's very difficult for any 1 individual to know everything about this industry now. I think it's it's it's a little hub to think that you can know. I mean, I've been around it a long time. You've been around it

a long time. And I've spent quite a bit of time trying to learn all of the podcast hosting platforms and how they work and all this kinda like that. And I find it very challenging to be able to have a thorough understanding of all these platforms, because each 1 of them is different, and they function differently and the distribution has become much more sophisticated now complicated. So, I mean, 1 really has to spend a lot of time now to keep up with everything.

I think the guy that I probably probably respect more than anything now on that front is probably Dave Jackson. Well, he's... He's been able to keep up with all this stuff. And where we're building a cons a consulting course. And Mh. It's almost done. And we're gonna charge for it. And if you get through the course, it's gonna be 12 weeks.

If you... And you're gonna mandatory to actually 10 training an hour a week for 12 weeks, then we will put you as a a certified consultant for, at least for blueberry. But oh, that's... Seo in the age of Ai, I think, yeah that's a whole that's a whole show in itself. But I will say that Ai is improving what was before nonexistent existent show notes? Yeah. And and how far is that gonna go, Todd? I mean, Jody, that's a good good point that you're making. You know,

Seo could go away. Ai could could could integrate in with the very fabric of the publishing process? Well, what's gonna... What could really happen is Google, the gatekeeper to search. It could be devastating. I. We've looked I know I'm I'm spend a lot more time doing queries and chat Gp Omni. Now. I'm not doing as much in Google anymore. Yeah. That's what she's referring to as per complexity Ai.

But ultimately, when Google gets her act together, it searches as you know what it's gonna change, and this is gonna be the problem is that you won't be found in search. And they're going to Google and complexity and all these folks are gonna be picking winners through the large language models, and the traditional Seo stuff is is is going to affect every business not just media creators.

It it could be potentially devastating. So I think what is happening is people are starting to realize that having their brand everywhere is going to be critical. Because if you're not spread wide. If you're just building your business on your dot com, and and I'm not talking about podcast. I'm just talking about business in general. If you are that local plumber or whatever business you are and someone is trying to find your business,

you have to be wide now. That's the only way you're probably gonna because the large language models is looking at multiple data points. And if you aren't available on multiple data points, how is it gonna recommend you? If you're a sole point of presence is just your dot com, I think you're screwed. So I I think the future of media creation is probably very, very bright because if you aren't creating media on all of the platforms, podcasting, Youtube, Instagram,

tiktok. If you're not doing it, when when the Ai search changes, and you look at this stuff that that Apple... I mean, not Apple this piece of crap that was it for the Apple intelligence? And not Apple. The I'm looking for the word here. It's called the Ai overview that Google came out with? Absolutely trash, but Google's all in on that. So if you don't make it into an overview, which will ultimately be people gonna ask a question. You know, what is the best tech

podcast? What is the best you better have a wide presence because the overview starts to what's gonna just like per complexity. That's how search is gonna change. So... But... Yeah. I just applied for that for my own personal brand. So So I think what will happen ultimately is that you you the creator, you, the podcast are creating original content is what's gonna be sought out.

I I think the future is bright just from that perspective alone because there is going to be a ton a ton, a ton of garbage. So Well, Todd, I can see a lot of correlation to what we have gone through with these you know, the smart agents from from Google and Amazon. Right? These he's talking kind of boxes in our homes. Right? Of being a single results type of a scenario. Right? So So as you look at Ai, Ai it is gonna give you answers, not results. Right. You know what I'm saying? Is

not gonna give you links. And if you... If in there... It may give you links. But in the context to the results. But... Yeah. It'll be very easy. They're gonna gonna be narrower. It's not gonna get very there. 50 pages. Right. Links that you have to comb through to find information. It's gonna give you 1 result and there's the danger. Right. And before results. Like I did a query for, like, the top 10 podcasts about podcasting. Yeah. And just just to

give an example here. And it it it came up with us, I believe in the number 1 spot. And that just... I'm not quite sure why. Yeah. It did that, but it just may longevity or whatever it or wide. We have a wide enough presence, maybe. Again, I think, you know, I think this is a gonna be a bigger issue for the whole world because businesses to date have relied on being in that top search result.

And and, you know, being able to be found for a keyword, which I think you know, be honest with keyword word phrase. I think Google faces real challenges here. Oh, yeah. Because how do they tie this back? How do they keep the ad model rolling when you're doing it an overview That's that's the trillion dollar current question right there is Yeah. Is what happens to the advertising industry. Yeah. As this rule work. Yeah. But again, on the opposite token, you might have to buy your way to the top.

You might have to give give them money just to be seen in any forthcoming search result because that they're there already have been king makers But this is going to you know, it's going to ramp up even more. You know, per complexity is a great product. But as soon as Google gets their act together, they're gonna eat. Yeah... Count out Microsoft with their c copilot either. Got their their fingers in open Ai. And now Apple is is trying to do

that too? Did do you know that the the 2 folks 1 from Apple and 1 from Microsoft have been removed from the open Board. Well, they have... No. They have... They don't... That haven't been removed. They have observer positions on the board. Well, they they pulled themselves out because they were being investigated for antitrust by the government? When did that happen? Because it was just in last last couple of days. Oh, because I reported on Monday that Apple had been given

Yeah. And they pulled out. Wow. Because because the government, the antitrust folks were starting to investigate, what was going on with Open Ai and Apple and Microsoft. You know, And, I mean, obviously, Google is a competitor to that, but that's kinda like a, you know, that's the development of a monopoly is what's happening with ai. Again, I think in the end, Well, if they have the money.

Well, you know, that's... A lot of market presence between apple and micro they've got millions of not maybe millions, but they have a huge investment in, you know, video chips and the tools that needed to But again, I think ultimately, I think our content podcast content, Youtube content, will be sought out because people are gonna be looking for genuine voices, and personalities. I think you there's gonna be a trust... You know, like you said, your trust factor

no. It... People are gonna be seeking stuff that has not been curated and ground out by by an Ai. Because people there's... They've set up you know, paper mills now, and it really not a paper mill. It's a digital printing mill where they're putting up thousands and thousands of articles every day. To to drive traffic to their websites all that generated by Ai with very little overview of the quality of the content. So with this influx of... You know, you...

Used to be we would be limited by the number of articles we could write as humans, you know, that's why my personal website from a budget standpoint and you know, I could basically afford to have about 30 articles a month put on geek central. Mh. But if I turned on the printing machine, I could, quote, unquote, feed it 10 press releases, and have it rewrite to press releases as blog post and probably put out 10 a day easily just myself in a matter of a few minutes. But again, is it dr?

Is it accurate? Is it real? There's copyright concerns you know, it just goes on and on and on. So who's gonna be who's gonna be the bearer of the trusted voice or site, you know, our our consumer. Are we going to put, like, right now, we're not generating. The only thing we're generating on central or new media show is the summary of the show, from Ai. So. Are we gonna have to have markers on

every piece of content that is... Or every blog post that's put out that says, human generated or Ai generated? And is the source of the information that we we used to write that article, was it Ai generated. So we, you know, we taken an Ai generated our article, what is real anymore? You know? So and with with the pressure to cut budgets folks like Cn and the verge and in gadget and any other Mh.

Newspaper, they're gonna be awfully tempted to just turn on the printing press with a with Ai and gu stuff out. Yeah. Jody Craig post, What I love about the tools like per complexity is that they offer citations of their sources. They cite the source. Yeah. She writes in here. You and you never know with chat Gp if it made it up, let alone where it got its info from though I have seen in chat, Gp, some results that cite sources. But just remember... Know that the the c copilot, version of chat

Gp on Microsoft. That does site sources because of its integration with Bing. Well let's just be careful though. This is not true Ai yet. This is a large language model that is is machine learning is all it is right. So generative Ai is a different beast. Yeah. That's that's gonna create new content, not something that's Yeah. They're agitated a source. Yeah.

So, you know, what we have now is the large language model is basically you've taken, you know, millions and billions of pieces of data, and then it tries to come up with the words. That you've... That it think you're looking for without any regards to accuracy or anything like that. So. Yeah. I think what... What's happening here is this recognition by the big search engines, and I believe Google's is probably doing this as well is trying to combine their

search business with their Ai business. Oh, yes. They they know that their all the revenue came out of the search side. So if they can kinda of blend those together somehow, Maybe they're well an ongoing kind of sponsored link up well. They their Ai platforms. Yeah. Well, they are going to be How do you... If... This thing that this piece of crap that Google came out with, this Ai reviews, which was telling you, okay, what how do I make a pizza? You know, it it suggested you use glue

to keep the cheese on the pizza. You know that... That's how bad the Ai overview was. So how do you... So let's let's say someone goes to Google, and the first thing they get is an Ai overview. With maybe potentially links below it, most consumers are gonna take the Ai overview. And they're just gonna run with that. And it's showing up now in the circles are. Yeah. So the Google. So the problem then becomes how do you as a creator business? How do you get source sighted? You may not.

Mh. You may not. And you may not ever be found. So your your business could could literally die just because of this change because you won't be found anymore. So what strategy, you know? It it's it's it's it's a real it's a real issue. And at the same time, Google's got to recognize that. If they stop driving traffic to my site to my business, from search queries because the Ai picked 2 winners. Todd. I I recently noticed, well, I don't know how recent... It's been

a few months now. That, chat Gp actually learns from what information you feed it. And I I do think I saw a an announcement that says And technically, it's not as a host to. But it actually will learn from your data. So if you feed it, this is a derivative I guess, functionality that came out of their their Gp product. Right? Right. It's actually you can train it. Right? So it's looking for

training data? So what does that mean for us from the standpoint of of individuals and our companies that maybe we need to be feeding it information about our companies and about us that we wanted it to know. Well, I I'm a firm believer that I'm not turning on any blocking at blueberry dot com. Right. Because my... If you're a podcast broadcaster, it's the same scenario. Right? My... Chat Gp to have access to all my perspective is is, again, if if if I

shut off the... You know, this is what, you know, in new york times all those folks are signing in, you know, multi billion dollar, you know, deals. To consume this content. But for me, as a business, I think it it boils down to. I've been feeding it information for a long time now. Trying to get it to to generate results that are favorable. I think, over time, we'll see how this all evolves but. Yeah, search. Yep. And you talk about discovery. So, you know, that's why discovery is happening

and more discoveries happening in have. Because most people just touching their app and doing a search, and they're not using Google for a search. Although my search traffic to my personal website hasn't evade. In other words, it hasn't been down. Oh it hasn't hasn't went down. But Also, I'm putting out better show notes now, so we're getting more traffic to the blog post currently even on New media show, our our web traffic is up just because there's richer show notes.

And she's not just a short paragraph that I summarize, I have the whole show summary in the show notes now. So And I wasn't even drinking my own... Well, I'm eating Central I was drinking my own ko aid, but a new media show it wasn't. Mh. So we'll see. And see what happens. Yeah. Because you could do a search in Google right now for this show, It comes up with this this result. Yep. It's probably hard to read. Know why it's

got. I gotta look at the Fa. I don't know why it's showing sent on the new media show. Must, I didn't switch the fa con over, but Yeah. So it... It's linking to the primary stuff that it needs to. So... Right. And it's linked linking to the Rs feeds and the podcast. That's the the, you know, in the n rob, the the every show can be found. That's not an issue, currently today.

But the articles, the episodes is where the battle is being won is you know, just do a search for advertisers versus podcast and and see what that re... See what you see in that result. Do advertisers versus podcast do that search. Advertisers versus podcast. Yeah. And just do advertisers Bs s, advertisers versus podcast. Now if it... With any luck, our episode that we did that I wrote up Now now see scroll down here. See this is a Ai overview. That's an example of an Ai

overview. Now continue to go down and see if you find the new media shows episode on this. Keep going keep going. See it's... If it is, it's buried. See... Yeah. See Yeah. So, you know, the the the challenges is being able to be found on an episode level. Right. And, obviously, we did not win that search result, and this stupid Ai overview, Now go to the top again. Let's see if it comes up at all. Yeah. Says Yeah new media show titled podcast the battle for control of advertisers versus podcast.

So So it comes up in the search lab. And this is Overview. Yeah. So see if you scroll down, then, you know, it it it shows up. But, you know, people are not going to type the battle for control advertisers versus podcast. That, you know, they're gonna search advertisers versus podcast and hope... And see what they get. You know. So the the ultimate goal of any podcast these days is to be have their episodes surfaced in the search results. And then, you know, that's how we build traffic to...

That's how it. And that the Yeah. Because multiple links to it. Yeah. You've done you've done a very pointed search, but an average person searching in Google is not going to do that. Right. That's true. So, you know, you might have 2 or 3 words here that, Podcast new media show that came up interesting. Yeah. That's there are what, multiple keyword phrases that come up on that search

where... Yeah. Right? But if we went back to that original search, and you look at advertisers versus podcast, then then look at the Ai overview, of that. So delete that. Yeah. Mh. And then look at the Ai overview on this, and read that Is there any... Is there any hit the show more? Is there any links outbound to anybody on this? Yeah. There there is Spotify and linkedin and... But again, you know, that that's where search is gonna change right there. You know, are people gonna go any further?

Are they gonna go down and read the quilt article? Yeah. I I don't think they will. Probably not. Yeah. Right? So immediately, on the Ai review, you've lost the game Your business yes versus radio. What's the difference? Yes. So a. Yeah. So time time will tell how this all folds out. Yeah. I agree. It'll be interesting. What's gonna happen? Scare you. Oh, looks like Jody got another question for you. Says, do you put up a transcript? Of

course. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. It's embedded in the Rs speed and my player on my website is closed caption enabled. So with the transcript. So... Yeah. Of course. But Google is you know, here's the problem. That's helping it? Do you do you think That's helping? No. It's, Google ignores the transcript. It's purely in the context of the of the the summary for the episode is what they're using right now. You know, they had said at 1 time.

They were they were making their own transcripts of every podcast sense but the Google folks told me when they... You know, they still had a podcast app. So I don't know what we'll see. Yeah I think Apple has said that they... The transcript for us is purely for accessibility. Yeah. I I don't think it's being used at all for for Google. Is if they're gonna do it if they're gonna they're gonna generate their own summary. I think people are gonna find, you know, and and this gets back to what

Jody Cra is saying here about. Honestly, she thinks that people are just gonna stop using the search engine for... Oh, I'm sure. And so this is... This could be very devastating to It's gonna be blended in with your watch. Just when we blend in with your phone. That's kinda what the whole hold So how how does how does a business survive? You know, again, there they're gonna be more of a king maker than they have been already. It's very, very scary.

Yeah. It's gonna be integrated into Siri or it's gonna be integrated into, you know, Hope they want... And if you're not wide enough, this is my contention. You have to be wide. You can't be narrow anymore. You have to be wide. You have to be... Your... And podcast leads to that because we're distributed everywhere, and where Spotify has shot themselves a foot and shutting off. You know, we're seeing them. Actually, there's been some...

We've been noticing that there has been some tags set in some spotify feeds that basically are using the the Apple tag to not be listed to Apple podcast. So, you know, Spotify is me, be playing a game here and trying to limit distribution of podcast on their platform to spotify only. Luckily apple's not recognizing their own tag and people are not being d listed out of Apple podcasts because of this flag. So ted and company don't fix that bug.

Yeah. I did hear Elon Musk. Say that he's gonna be building G into all of the Ai neural net about G is self driving cars. G is a piece of crap right now. So I wouldn't trust g to be in anything in my vehicle at this point. They're gonna maybe future versions of it, but its version on x right now is is is absolute horse. It's trash. He's got some he's got some makeup things to do with. Right He's he's, you know, he's just bought a half a million Nvidia processor. So

he's gonna start crunch data. What he's gonna start doing. But but he's gonna come out of x. Somebody do you guys think, you know, the audience is listening here, What do you, you know, if you stuck around here to the end, But again, Jody, as soon as Google gets their axe to get act together, perplexed... They're gonna eat per lunch. I think perplexed see has a very short shelf life. It's cool to what it's doing now, but a year from now when Google gets caught up.

Well, in open Ai, Microsoft after everyone's gonna be doing this. And and you can't count out Facebook. No. They're gonna be doing something here too. Yeah. I'm sure. And and, you know, I think x x ai is gonna be ramping up fast. Yeah let's see. Let's see. Again, it's just a it's... It's just a full self driving in my car right now, and it's it's doing a pretty good job. Well, it don't fall asleep and end up underneath the december. Believe or something Bully me. It won't let you. So it's

it's watching what you're doing. So... Yeah. Well, again, or not doing. I I don't know how you're back survives writing in Tesla. It's like writing in a jeep. Right that's it truly is. It's the worst writing vehicle Ever been in. If you if you appreciate luxury, car rides don't not own a Tesla. Well, they they've in the model 3, they did a in their most recent

upgrade to the car. They have a much better suspension than the Well, it it it couldn't have got receipts could not have gotten any worse. I will just say that. And again, It's got a very low center gravity tone. I again based upon my upon my experience of a Tesla in Phoenix. I wouldn't own 1 of them. Sears. Well, that's probably not a great Great place to own 1II

agree with you. Okay. Well, then where can you own 1 where it's a moderate temperature you can't own when where it's cold where I am and park it outside. You look park outside. Well, you look at you look at all the dead cars that happened in Chicago. That... Again, that's a whole another show. Yeah. Well, that's true... I don't have any trouble with it in the winters here. So... Yeah. And Jody is correct. They totally might but the tool they build will do

something similar. I agree that they able will do exactly what complexity is doing. And search it. But the problem is It's the logical move. Yeah. But how does Google survive? And their revenue comes from advertising on Google search. You look at pod bean L and Buzz pro. Collectively, they're probably spending a hundred and 50000 dollars a month on Google search ads.

So if they're used to spending that kind of money, they're gonna continue to be found, how are companies that are not spending 50000 dollars a month on Google search ads going to be found, and we'll search change so much that people won't do Sem anymore. So... Well, it's it's gonna change the game, Todd. I mean, you're gonna have to figure out how you're going to show up and in queries and then and large range. Wireless queries. Large language models. Right? Yeah. That's the key.

That's what Google and Microsoft and all these companies are counting on as being able to figure that citation model because then you can integrate links in there. So So I don't know. I mean, I think it's interesting to see how they're gonna handle that. It it could just generate ads that are relevant to your queries too... Well, people may never click a link again. They may just get the information and not click a link. That's or not... Yeah. Because there may be no links to click.

Or you won't need. Yep. But there needs to be a way to respond to something. Right? You can't just look at something. Yeah. I... I'm... That's fake action on it. Right? What if you people? Well, people go to Youtube to find how to videos. They they go over there and look look at a how to video. They learn how to do something. Google's is gonna give all the information that has been lifted from websites and give that in a summary and guess what? They may not link out to a website. So guess what?

How do you survive as a business then? Well, they... Was it the Instagram platform is been doing this for a long time. Right? Making it difficult to have external links. Yeah. Even x, they you get, you get less viewership anytime you link out of x. Yeah. Same thing with Facebook. If... You know, Facebook doesn't you. They they don't want you leaving their platform. Mh. So... No. Yeah. We'll see. More subscription models. There you go.

Well, or or people get fed up, and there becomes a true competitor to Google. Well, think about it. On open, people are paying for that subscription. Right? Yeah. That's, like, paying paying for your search sure. It's it it's the equivalent. That's a research assistant is what it is right now. Right. And when we migrate to this model of smart agents, where these language models are actually working on your behalf. That's where that's where things are gonna shift

again. Oh, people have no idea what's coming. Where we're a large... A a language model or an Ai agent will actually help you run your life. I I just... We're working on up. Basically, it's a... We've already announced it. It's a clip... It's a highlighter. Basically, you you basically, and analyze the transcript, and then you come out with clips. Like well, basically, you know, short segments, you know, 60 second segments of a show that can then be exported into

a short or real or whatever. Something, you know, we've been testing that. And having some challenges, they get... Mh. To get it right. Well, 1 of the models updated, and we switch that particular piece of the query to another model, and we basically got our prompts better now. So the the results that it's put outputting is about 50 percent better, just over 30 days of testing.

So we've solved our issue with going to a different model that has been updated, and we'll probably release this in the next couple of weeks, but it was not in a state, a month ago where I said, I I can't put this out. Because it's just not good enough yet. There would be... We're gonna cause podcast or frustration. So our clip creator is now because a model got better, and interpreting the type of query we wanted.

So same thing with you'll have specific agents doing certain things where we and our Ai, integration, some stuff are using pho, some stuff we're using ant philanthropic. Some stuff we're using another service. So we're... We basically are using, and we are gonna have to continue to monitor this continuously as the models change, and this is where we build our system is if I wanna change a query, all I go and do is my admin and I can go from Op pho to Facebook to

open Ai. I can switch the model, that queries being and sent to based upon the result. And it's just gonna be a cat game for a long time for for us and many others that are building tools at least on for us were the podcast. So... Yeah. I believe that this is the direction that apple's is going on their their iphones is that they're gonna have this Ai engine that is basically a a smart agent that has access to all of your personal information. Well, Apple been doing on your phone.

Apple been doing a lot of Ai stuff for years. So we'll see what become... It's been... Yeah. It's kinda of more machine learning. Yeah. Because I know they've had a bunch of machine learning Phds over there for many, many years. But it's it's... It really gets back to... It's a privacy issue. I think is what's gonna happen with these smart agent technologies because in order to fully utilize this technology, they're gonna have to have access to all of your information. Right? Your calendar,

or... They already did contacts, No. No, but it's gonna have to be integrated into these Ai agents that are gonna be able to analyze it and to produce recommendations do you before you even know what the right recommendations. Let's say you have a plan that you... Like you exchange an email with your with your with your grandparent or your parent or whatever that you're gonna take a trip to Seattle or something like that. It'll pick that up in your communications, and it will generate a

whole trip for you. Well, based on the the criteria that you have that you have built in. And and it's going to pick winners and losers. And again, yeah that to be careful here. Yeah. But it's it's really gonna get into... I'm starting to see it a little bit with my My Tesla being able to predict where I'm gonna go with my car before. Google If you've had an a Google account. Google will tell you 15 minutes to get to work today

before you... No. No. But it it'll it'll predict where I'm tipping gonna go on a day of the... It's already doing time. Yeah. Google has been in the past. Yeah. But Google's been doing that for years already. Mh. But yeah that's that's an example what I'm talking about where it's gonna learn from your patterns and your behavior it's gonna have all these sensors are gonna pick up your activities in your life. And it will, you know, integrate with apps or whatever and in... You haven't seen apps.

You haven't seen this you haven't gotten a notification on your phone that it's you know, 10 minutes to work or, you know, Of course. Yeah. No. It's all part of it. Right? It's all part of it. But... Yeah. There's... What what I'm trying to say here is it's gonna be a deeper integration. Than just that. Right? Yeah. I can see how that will work, but I can also see where the Ai is gonna be much more intelligent about being able to negotiate contracts and sorts with vendors and providers

It's... They the Google thing. The lady Google Ai person as she said, a year ago, the the thinking it's gonna be done by Ai. And the funky is those mundane task. And the people that are gonna survive this are gonna be the creative and the subject matter experts. Those are all those t jobs are gone. So... Yeah. In and welcome the the robots. Well, the robots are... That's the other part that's coming. Oh, absolutely. Have no doubt. And if I have a robot, yeah. It's it's all my long. Yeah well,

they've already have... They already have those rob. That Well, I know they're those little boxes that run on the ground. I'm talking about the actual humanoid robot pushing our mo lawn more you don't need to. They've got ones that rolling now and know your boundary. That's true. That's true. But I have to pay separate for that. Yeah. Well, I don't have a yard. So... You're right. So I've got a half acres so... Yeah. Well... When I go back to Michigan, I

got you know, 3 acres most. So III technically don't have a yard, but the family does that I get... They get rope into using the 0 point turned to bow. Got. Alright. Well, I think we're going we're a little long tonight. We're long. Morning for me, or morning for you. Right? Yeah. It's sounds good. And I had a very long day yesterday, but so I've only had a few hours sleep because of the you know, me working in opposite hours and being on East coast time while I'm here.

Yeah. Yeah. Matt, Matt confirms what when I'm saying, why iphone knows exactly when I'm getting into my car. They go got. Go golf thing. Right? Yeah. Because you probably do it on a regular basis, so it it it learns. It's patterns and your activities. It's, you know, the Saturday morning golfing or the you know, the Friday afternoon golfing or whatever. Yeah. Like if I go to Costco on Saturday. So what whenever I get in my my car, it it already knows, pops up in the list of

destinations and I just click the button. Well, a lot of divorce are happening because, the The phones are na on the cheater too. So you. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Rob. Privacy is at stake Definitely. Alright. Everyone. Alright. I hope you found this entertaining everyone. Todd at blueberry dot com. Todd at blueberry dot com at geek news on Twitter. My phone's ringing here. And Yeah. And I'm I'm on x as well. So here's my information up here too, So it's just at Rob Green, and

rob dot green at g dot com. If you're listening to this, and then I've also by a Youtube channel that and then a website too, you know? And and I have a another podcast I do call podcast tips. That's actually hosted on Todd's platform, and that's gotta a that's got a website as well. So... So for those of you that were complaining about the the audio quality and the audio editing that rob did on the previous show, I I am in control of the audio

recording today. Don't worry. You're... You are. You are. Yeah. I haven't recorded here, so we don't end up with the this Bev of emails that came in and said something is wrong with your audio. So... Well, I think we had some issues of cross talk, Todd. So I think it was more of your editing, taking out too much dead air. Okay. Well, actually, the editing was done by des script. So... That that explains it. Yeah. That explains I am not a fan of their

automated tools. It just sounds like Well, they have been improving them. I have to say here recently. Well, they have to the user experience of the app itself is definitely gotten a little smoother to work with. Well, I'm gonna stick to my guns and no editing allowed. So... Okay. Todd. Alright. Alrighty everybody. Well, you didn't capture the the video though I'm gonna have to send you a video yeah. You'll have to send the video. So... Okay. Alright. Everybody. Alright. Thanks

you so much for being here. We'll see you next time. Alright. Bye. Good night.