Does Podcasting Need its own “Got Milk” Campaign #598

Todd and Rob in the afternoon. Afternoon to love. With Todd and Rob. Oh, yeah. Well, Rob, here we are. We survived podcast movement, and we are, in in process of switching data streams. So I literally unplugged the Ethernet cable to the Mac mini and put you on Wi Fi to Starlink so I may need new 2 cables on that Mac mini to be able to switch and so having you on Wi Fi is not the best, solution but here we are. And, but I've been seeing 300 down and about 20 up on Starlink lately. So speed wise,

it should hold. Yeah. It should be enough. Yeah. Yeah. It should be enough to handle this. If the latency isn't isn't bad enough. It doesn't appear to be bad. I think it was worse when we first started talking, but it's definitely better now. But but, yeah, podcast movement wrapped up, and I think that there's some interesting takeaways from what we saw there. Isn't there? Yeah. And probably there's a lot of people listening. You know, I had taken a picture.

Because all the show hall wasn't even open and but it didn't get much better from the time I took the picture to well, I guess, let's let's just let's just talk about it. You know? And, Dan and Jared, if you're listening, please listen. It was a different event. It felt completely different. Yeah. It felt like we were in LA again An industry event, not at a reader podcast treatment. I've never really felt, Todd, much to a

difference between the 2 of them, actually. I mean, I guess that's so let's be clear what we're talking about here. We're we're talking about the evolutions event that typically happens in Los Angeles at about the 6 month, part of the year, and then it pops over to the main podcast movement event is

what just happened. So the one we're talking about is the one that just happened in Washington DC, August 19th through 22nd, and it was, you know, the 10th I believe it's the 10th time that that event has been held, that main podcast movement event, which has held the mantle of the world's largest podcasting conference for for many years. But I'm not sure that it's it's up to that level anymore. So it's it's really kind of you know, there's a lot of stuff to unpack about this topic,

and, you know, I was there. Todd was there. We spent most of the time at the event and and saw a lot of stuff that, is concerning. Right? Concerning. And nothing to take away from the efforts that Dan and Dan and Jared has put into the event. I think they've they've done a terrific job of organizing it and pulling it together and doing what they need to do to to to keep the event moving forward.

But I do think that what we're seeing and we're gonna dive into it a little deeper is really, coming out of what's happening with the industry of podcasting. And it's coming out of the economy, coming out of people's attitudes towards podcasting, I think are all part of a shift that's happening right now, and I think podcast movement is a very stark reflection of that. Would you agree, Todd? Well, I, you know, I go to the event as an exhibitor.

Yeah. And we measure success of a show based upon the number of I know when we go there, we're waving a flag that we're still in business. We're still here. So there is a cost associated with basically saying we are we we're still here. We're still alive. Mhmm. Then there is the who we're talking to. And this year, the number of people fresh creators at the event was horribly underrepresented. I mean, it was bad. We've pulled the spreadsheets.

We we scanned every person we talked to, and, I will say this, under 10 under 10 new podcasters that we talked to over 3 days. 10. 10. That number should have been closer to a 100 or 200. Because I went and looked at previous years. I've done, you know, and looked at the looked at our data. That that tells me that new creators there was plenty of existing creators, but new creators were not there. And I think we attribute to maybe three things. Shows on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, cost

Yeah. And yeah. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and cost. And, you know, it's who who who is a a new creator that is exploring the medium that is trying to get started and wants to go to an event to find out information, airfare, hotel, expensive a ticket, and PTO, it's just too much. I know what our costs are. You know, I think we probably had $25100 per person by time you get done well, more than that, after time you get done with food. Right.

So there was a lot fewer participants. Now what really made a difference and, again, the exhibit hall was immensely oversized. And there's a certain dynamic to trade shows. And I I hate to do a a trade show 101. I've been doing this 20 years. But when the when and people are gonna laugh when I say this, but when the aisles when you have a booth and another booth across from you that's 10 feet away, there's kind of a dynamic that happens when

people walk down the aisle. You can say, hi, good morning, get their attention, and oftentimes, they're more or less you kinda pull them in. Right? And Yeah. That that is just a thing that happens at trade show. That's a trade show dynamic. The aisles were 30 feet wide, So I couldn't yell, hey, good morning, and get someone's attention. So the dynamic of just being able to having the show floor being so spread out, just from a layout standpoint impacted exhibitor traffic,

which I care about. Now if you're an attendee, you could care less about exhibitor traffic. Right? It was my job to get him into the booth and talk to him and raise awareness. I you know, that's all fine and dandy, but when you handicap me from the beginning of the 30 foot aisle, not to mention no carpeting on the floor and people don't wanna stand because their feet hurt. Right. And people say, why are you worried about the carpet, Todd? It's a big deal.

If you make the aisles smaller, the carpet bill's smaller. You have 1 third less carpet to put down when you shrink the exhibit hall. So you have 1 third the cost and putting carpet down when you don't have this big expansive area. I'm not telling Dan and Jared how to do their business. Well, I think what they were doing was was probably doing doing the right thing for kind

of the business side of the events. And and also, I think I wanna say too that I think that they they did it this event what they needed to do. Right? And I I think that that is another sign, you know, the lack of carpet on the floors. Yeah. The the fact that they had 6 presentation stages that were on the exhibition floor on the floor. Right. Which was good because they did have, you know, those wireless headphones that you could wear. It's

actually here. You're the presenters, which is we've experienced doing a live show, live version of this show at conferences, can be a challenge where people who can't hear each other and and it's hard to actually do content in that kind of environment. So I think they did acknowledge that they

were gonna have an issue. Yeah. Just the expansive space that they had at this event tells me that they were thinking that this event was going to continue to grow every year and get bigger and bigger and bigger. And so they got, this contract with Gaylord and all of those hotels are very large. And they're very professional hotels. They're very nice. They're they're perfect for a show that's growing. Right? And show that's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Yep.

The the problem that we ran into with this is that the attendance of this, from what I gathered from others that were looking at the the Swapcard mobile app, was that there was only about 2,000 attendees, which, you know, on the surface of it doesn't sound like that's horrible, but, but I think when you compare it to, let's say, the event like 3 or 4 years ago, it was probably over 3,000. Right? So you're you're off by about a third on the attendees. And I do kind of wonder if it's creators

was making up that difference. Well And so you have to, you know, kind of look at what's happening here Yeah. And really, really back up and look at the the aspects of what's going on in the industry too. I think that it's a multilayered thing. Right? But it's not Yeah. It's not just one one one thing. You know, it's not Dan and Jared's fault in some way. I mean, it's it's definitely kind of a

reflection. I know that those guys went through some tough times during COVID, right, where they were trying to put an event together and they were having a hard time getting people to show up to those events too. I think at one point they, I think they had like a 1000 people. But that's understandable, but now I think it's a different dynamic now. I think that the industry is, is professionalizing.

It's, it's not seen as, as a medium that is as easy for people to build shows and create shows that are successful. That, and I think the big takeaway from this is that I think it's also a clash of expectations. Because I think you and I have seen the past. Right. We have an expectation that we go there because we both worked for the hosting companies in the past and, and you in the present. And, and I think what we have always seen and what we expect is that there's

going to be new creators there. There's going to be business interests there. There's going to be commercialism there. The radio companies are going to be there. But what we're seeing hap now is really a shift towards professionalism, towards the bigger shows getting more attention and more audience and getting more monetization.

I think there's examples of that that I'll share later in the show about what was in pod news over the last couple of days about this big show that was signed a $100,000,000 deal with the Amazon, Wondery folks. And it it it's just a reflection of how kinda disconnected big podcasting is from, the 80% of Yeah. 90 Independent marketing. 90%. Hey, Rob. Bump your audio just a little bit on your side.

One thing that, was a tell really for me and what was the what was interesting was that one thing's for sure, the the amount of traffic the amount of people so I took all our act took all our data. We exported everyone we talked to, and I broke it into really 3 categories. 4, really. Thanks for you know, people that we see that really have just friends and family. Yeah. People that are basically potentially new podcasters, those that are podcasters, and and potential business prospects.

And, the number of folks that were talking to me looking for money for different events and things are going on was a huge part of it. There was a lot of existing podcasters that were looking, believe it or not, to move. We talked to more people about migrating this, event than anything. So if if if all the people that talk to us that wants to migrate, it'll be a little bit of a savings grace. But, you know, that still we'll see if that actually pulls through.

And then, you know, and you always expect to get 1 or 2 success for me is 1 or 2 really big deals out of a show. And I don't know. Yeah. No. I don't know if I'm gonna get a big deal out of this show. And again, as an exhibitor, I have a little different perspective. But at the same time, I heard speakers who were speaking at the event. They were complaining because they couldn't they weren't getting any feedback.

The little speaker they had there was, you know, they're used to having in ear feedback and so they're on a mic dry talking and they were having a little bit of challenge in that regard. So I'm sure the speakers will get feedback to them. Hey. Boost that feedback speaker up a little bit. The the the the attendees to the, the, sessions were probably did well. Like, because they they could hear really well because they were dialed in with those headphones.

So I think that was a success from that standpoint. But, you know, we Unless you're wanting to get questions from the audience, I don't see it's a big Yeah. Much. But But it it's some sort of feedback that they were complaining about. But for us, you know, we've had a 10 by 20 now for for 3 or 4 years. We downsized. We went back to a 10 by 10. So did Podbean. They went back to a 10 by 10. Red Circle and Buzzsprout were there. They've always

been in a 10 by 10. So, I'm sure they'll be back with a smaller booth. But, really, there's no need to have a big booth, and we're gonna reduce the number of people we take to the show for the follow on year. I you know, and and the only thing I'm gonna say is podcast movement can't rest on their laurels. They have to go out there and work and promote this show in order to bring a full spectrum of podcasters back to it. If they don't, I'll have a hard consideration to make a year from now.

Yeah. You know, be honest with you. And and and I understand that the large percentage of people that were there were chasing 1% of money. They're all looking a lot of people are looking for deals. Yeah. It's a business. Yeah. There were, you know, Spotify, the the ESPN folks, which is part of Disney Yeah. Had their own private rooms Private rooms gated. And didn't have any exposure None. To the public event at all. And there's other other networks that did the

same thing up there I saw. So, you know, it's it it it's really turned into something quite different than I think. It's it's a it's a it's an elite it's an elite elite

club. Yeah. And to kinda double down on the thought that I had around expectations is that I heard some say that, you know, exhibitors, what I'm talking about is that some of them that are doing well, right, in the industry, they're still doing well, they're not struggling, are increasingly looking at this event as just a thing to do to connect with their existing customers. That's that's we've done that for years because we know the ROI is gonna be

different. ROI. Right. Yeah. Motivated situation because they realize that this event is not going to drive much of an ROI. So, you know, so in some ways, it's an investment spend that you can't really expect a strong ROI on. But when road when road is there, not road, who is there? One vendor left because they sold nothing. And when when there's when there's Before the event ended? Yeah. They left they left a day early. Well, they they didn't exhibit on Friday.

And Mhmm. You know, when there's So it's slow on Friday. There's no reason to be there. Well, it was actually believe it or not, we had good traffic on Friday. The traffic's Oh, yeah. The traffic we had stayed steady in there when it was, but I didn't need 3 people. I just needed 2 at the max. Yeah. So Yeah. It's only half day anyway on the final day. Yes. Well, it's like 4 hours or something, 3 and a half hours or

something small. It's not that many. But the simple fact that, you know, so I know one vendor. The only reason he was there was because someone said, hey. You can piggyback. You can be in here with us. So, you know, if if you don't fill the exhibit hall, that's a problem. Then the event is going to change. If the exhibit hall isn't there anymore, and you have very few vendors showing up, then it just becomes I don't know what it becomes. You know? And and I understand the contracts

in these devices. Oftentimes, you get the exhibit hall if you guarantee so much in food and beverage. It's it's all this, you know, and, you know, they're between a rock and a hard place because they play this game. You know, the way the all these big convention centers. You know? And it's never to the advantage of the group that's holding the event. Doesn't matter who it is, because of the big, big, big numbers they have to pay. So I I don't envy them at all.

But maybe to help this summer event, something has to change too. Let let the corporate come in on Thursday. And let them go home on Friday. And then Friday Saturday have a focus for people that want to come at a cheaper price. Let them Yeah. Because the ticket price is another thing is keeping people away. You look at the the podcast show in London. They have daily daily sales. They you can go and see So it's a 2 day events and they sell one day tickets. And you don't have to go

to the sessions. You can just walk the walk the and the exhibit halls packed wall to wall. And they tell you the difference of it their model. Right? I think it is a little bit of their model is what's getting in the way right now because I'd say that the ticket prices are are, you know, over $1,000 If you if you if you if you get it late, if you get it earlier, it's cheaper. But Right. You know, I've got people saying what show? And also, here's another key thing. It used to be

where are you from? Oh, I'm from LA. I'm from Washington DC. I'm from Colorado. I'm from Arizona. I'm from Alaska. I'm from Europe. I'm from blah blah blah blah. Washington DC. Washington DC. Washington DC. Washington DC. New Jersey. Washington DC. Local Virginia. Maryland. I mean, it was I had only talked to one person, and maybe it's just based on who I talked to came from Seattle. So it's a regional event now. It's not a national event. So they did not It's just expensive to

travel and Yeah. But airplanes are full though, Rob. So I don't necessarily give that an excuse. Well, there's fewer flights. Yeah. Well That's the only thing that's going on. So it's it may not be an accurate reflection of how many people are actually traveling. It just may be that the airlines are much being trying to be more efficient. Oh, yeah. Adam, say you're not monitoring boost today. I I'm sorry. I have failed in doing so. 10,000 stats from Adam Cree said, you should

have yelled. Yes, queen. And I don't know what that's referred to. My my Facebook page is going you I mean, my YouTube channel is going crazy here. Meta says walking from one booth to another was a marathon. Had to stop and rest. Beauty bubble, an idea. We may have to return to the buddy system or dance card environment. Every attendee should declare who they want to meet and know what they see to happen from that relationship.

Randy says the walled garden approach is going to hurt podcasting in the long run. Adam says not monitoring boost today? Beauty bubble, should everyone not be required to be on the conference floor? Well, they everyone was on the conference floor. That's just it because they had all of the they had all of the, sessions on the conference floor. Podfather in the house. Yes. And and plus that's a cost savings too, which means that they didn't have to acquire as many

session rooms. Yeah. Adam, thanks for joining the troll room. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to still okay. As I said, in a boost to curry and to keep her happy birthday pot okay. I'm just reading down through. I was at PM to look for job prospects. Clearly, bits and nits cometh. Yep. They have to meet your oh my god. These guys are having fun in the chat room. Keep going. Say something productive when we're on tune. We'll cover it in the in the show. But, he you know? I don't know.

I I just you know? Call me, you know, the old curmudgeon. And, you know, I I have to go back. This is this is the thing. I have to go home to my board of directors and have to say, here's the numbers. You know? Here's the numbers. But I started this session today, and maybe, Rob, we can we can quit bitching about the show. We can talk about some of the some of the cool things that happened. Yeah. Or or things that are reflective of

the broader scope of what's what's happening. And, you know, I think this event was, has been moving towards this for many years now, moving towards the business side of podcasting. Right? The ad sales, the deals, the brands, the, you know, and being a basically a place for people to go to have business meetings. Yeah. If you're on the invite list. Right. To get into the room with the shrimp and caviar and, you know the Yeah and it's a battle, I mean at a very high level, it's a battle

over the big shows. Right? Right. To some degree, I mean, not all big shows are there, but they may have representation that's there from those big shows. And and they're all they're all battling over representation, you know, which ad sales agency or which hosting platform or whatever will give them the best deal. You know, I had some conversations with a few people around ad guarantees and things like that. Well, I guess that's happening, still, but just not at the at the level of a 100%.

It's typically, like, maybe a 30 or 40% guarantee checklist. But again, Rob situation. Those those people aren't listening to this show. Like so to be honest with you, does anyone care? Or not. Well, I mean, it's just reflective of economic situations about what's going on with podcasting. Even the big companies are not investing. And this was another thing that came up a lot in my conversations with people is that the bigger companies are not investing in

creating new shows right now. What they're doing is they're increasingly doubling down on the ones that they have that are picking up audience and growing. And we are seeing in the stats where audience continues to grow. Audiences are growing. What is it that most of that growth is going into growing the pool of bigger shows. I don't. We see great growth on shows, just average shows. I'm sure it's gonna happen Yeah. Other places too, but but I do think that the big is

getting bigger right now. And I think that's kind of a bigger kind of trend line right now. And then the the focus on on that, you know, if more brands are focused on a smaller number of shows looking to do ad deals, there's this tension that's been creating and I'm hearing it at places like Oxford Road and some of these that ad loads are becoming a concern. I know we've talked about that many times. We've been talking about that for 2 years.

So Right. And and that that now the agencies are saying, well, if if your podcast has more than so many, ad spots in it, we're going to lower our CPM offer. Right? So we have the tension, right, that's happening around ad loads and ROI on campaigns we're going into these big, really big shows. Right? And I see it at platforms like, like Spreaker.

I mean, they have, you know, this programmatic stuff that they're, they're doing out there that their, their platform is capable of like 13 minutes or more of ads an hour in their content. Right. So it's it's it's this tension around, commercialization of the medium, and then then we also heard kind of backdoor conversations around what's going on with video too and we can Well, let's let you know, one thing I would tell you who wasn't there, YouTubers.

They weren't there. YouTubers did not attend this event. So, and there was some Because they're all going to VidSummit. Yeah. Well, there was there was some tempering on YouTube. There was some videos. Finally got a little bit of a drawback. Maybe maybe it isn't the end for all that you were thinking. But I wanna bring up one thing before we get there and lose half the audience because we talk a little bit about video.

Chris, we're on video. No. I wanted to talk about the tension at the event Well over video and how Tom Webster pulled out the audio again. Well, and and that's my point exactly. So I I named this show in the, re streaming service as let me look at it here. Does podcasting need a Got Milk campaign? And everybody knows what Got Milk is. Right? You probably saw them on TV in the eighties and whenever that campaign run. You got milk? And they showed a milk jug. Right?

Or someone drinking milk. Got Milk? And, I think we need a Got Milk campaign. What are you gonna say, you know, Todd? Well, here's here's saying that Tom hit on it. He nailed it on the head. The thing we have forgotten, the thing we have absolutely forgotten and I should pull up the Slack channel because I talked to my team about it, actually, in a meeting and I posted some stuff from Tom. Podcasting in audio is a companion. It's it's companion content. Sure. You take it with you. It's in

the car. It's on the train. It's on the bus. It's at the gym. It's companion content. It's lean in content. We have forgotten and we quit. We need to start promoting again that audio is is your is your cup of milk and your your your cookie at night. It it is it is it is something that is wholesome and pure and non obtrusive. We we need something to remind people of of what podcasting is and and the pure form of the audio. It's getting over righted by, you know, the screen time counts. You know?

We have to re remember that audio is and Thomas and I didn't make this up. This came from Tom in a subtle way. Tom Webster. Tom Webster. Tom Webster. Yeah. And so we need to advocate as a podcasting community the value of what podcasting offers. Let's quit talking about the bullshit advertising. Let's talk about let's, you know, let's talk about the value of this medium.

Those conversations are go to 2 different audiences, but so I do think that the advertising side is something that does impact listeners. And and I do think that that's that's the core tension that's going on in the media right now is that who is this medium trying to cater to? Is this medium trying to cater to brand advertisers or is it catering to trying to grow listeners? Or better community relationships with listeners as a longer term strategy to to advertisers.

Because I think as we've seen this shift happen increasingly as we've been pushing ad loads Well, we haven't. Higher no. No. Higher and higher. I'm talking about the industry. That we are moving away from being a medium that's focused on building community and building audiences and more towards catering to the wishes of brands and everything. That's in any that's what people are doing. They're rolling over and dying on their swords because they're they're they're they're basically

to the advertisers. Now, Adam, another 10,000 sats boost. Less ad loads, more boost loads. Yes. Go boost. Podcasting 2 point o. We hope you're listening on one of those we are live and lit today, so I hope that you're listening on one of those new podcasting apps from podcast apps.com. My personal favorite is Fountain. So I hope you're hope you're listening. You yes. You can listen on a podcast app if you didn't know that, and we are live and lit. So, yeah, I it's it is a

there is a drawback. You know, Tom said in his presentation course, he's given more input today. I, you know, shut it off about 5 minutes before I met you here on the on the online system, that, there's some pullback. And we know that. Blueberry knows that. We know where we know where the From what? Oh, the creator side. Oh. Fewer creators. Viewer creators. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. And, you know, everyone smiles. Business is great. And then you get people in private in there,

you know, they're having a conversation. By the way, you know, I always disclose that I I did get to talk to, Ted from Apple. So, Ted, you just found me via the, transcript. I know you tuned in at this point. Because he told me how he finds out if we talked about him. I just searched his first I shouldn't say his name anymore. We should just talk about it and force him to listen. And I I I I've shared with this audience already.

I I just my advice to him was Apple needs to quit making video, be a second class citizen. And why? And we've been doing this show live for as long as we can remember. I think for 13 or 14 years at this point. And, you the number of people I actually counted. So from the start of the show to the end of the show, when everyone talked about video, I said, oh, you wanna watch my video podcast on Apple Podcasts and they look at me and I would bring it up and I would click it and I would

show the video on Apple Podcasts. Now People would know it's there. Their jaws dropped open. I didn't know that. How's that possible? Really? That's there? How long's that been there? I said since the beginning. So I think the number was 13 that I was able to have an enlightening moment with. So if and these are podcasters been in the biz. These aren't new people. We even had a fun discussion on on the podcast index. People were going, oh, you

shouldn't. You're sending your audience over to Apple. No. They started on Apple because I don't what year did YouTube get online? I don't even remember. I was doing a video podcast, I think, before there was YouTube. I think it was 2,005. Oh, maybe not. So anyway, you know, if I had started on YouTube, I'd probably be rich and retired, Rob. But yeah. They were they were really quick to the the the medium. I mean, they saw something

happening and jumped on it right away. I have to give Apple a lot of credit for You know, but but, you know, let's Their forethought. Let's surface it so so that we can see it. And, you know, and, you know, Ted, you know, to his credit, Oh, thanks for the input, you know. And, you know, Ted plays the Apple role very well and he listens to input. And and surprisingly, I think he listens to a lot of podcasters complaining too. Yeah. And, so, you know, I'm sure that can be

tiring. But I I just, you know, I I think the Apple team as well. I think we're the ones that are probably the most vocal about it because we've been around long enough. Yeah. Yeah. To know that it's there. There's a lot of new people in the industry that don't know Apple supports video. Yeah. When I And to be honest with you, I never had to defend Apple before, you know. And now it's one of these things that, you know, I have to defend Apple quite a bit. And,

you know, and Apple's not everything. You we've got, you know, it on this show alone, I think we're, like, 46 for 7, 47 percent of folks are listening on Apple. The rest are on different apps. So it's there's lots of great apps out there at new podcast apps.com. So lots of options, but I think that what was I gonna say? Oh, I had a great bleed in and I I lost it. I'm in a senior moment here. But anyway, go ahead, Rob. I'll think about

it here a second. Yeah. I was just gonna mention that it just came out in in Pod News. Thank you, James Cridland, for that. I guess, Lipson reports that they've hit a new low in Apple Podcasts downloads. I guess they're they're showing it down to 46.7% of all downloads for shows on their platform. Yeah. We're about 47%. That's about where we're at. So there's a there's a slippage going on there. Well, they're moving around. It's it's not it's not that

people are glistening, you know. Our Spotify numbers are absolutely, you know, are bad. For the for the record, Rob, I moved I took Geek News Central and Podcast Insider off Spotify. So I wasn't gonna remove this show off Spotify without getting your permission. As you know, you're you got 50% investment here. So what do you think? Should we remove this show from, from the from the layer the the the the, Dragon's Den?

Oh, he propped Probably not. Just just because I mean, we're trying to be an industry Yeah. I know. Podcast. Right? So trying to trying to boycott certain entities in the podcast space maybe doesn't reflect well on us on that side. I'm not boycotting. I'm just choosing where I want my show to be. Yeah. I get that. Well, anyway, I I'm not sure. What's the percent? I mean, is there any way I mean, I'm sure there's a way you can look at it. Yeah. I can

look at it. Percentage of audiences over there. It's maybe 1 and a half or 2 or something like that. But I will I will say this. You you you wanna you'll find this interesting. Buzzsprouts podcast is not on Spotify. Really? Mhmm. That's interesting. It is interesting, isn't it? So, you know, I made the kid command decision to join the club and, and pulled the podcast insider from Blueberry. And also, we weren't getting any numbers over there anyway, so it didn't really matter.

Yeah. But, you know, so Woo hoo. But but, Todd, to kind of back up to this video versus audio discussion a little bit and kind of dive a little deeper into that is, is I think we are feeling this internal tug of war in the industry, right? It's like, oh, do we really want to go down this path of video? And, and kind of, you know, embrace it or do we want to push back on it and become or remain what we've thought of ourselves as audio only

pretty much. I mean, and that's, that's a little bit of my takeaway from Tom Webster's presentation too. It's like, you know, he's been pushing this topic of the importance of video and things like that, but I feel like maybe, maybe it's a little bit of an industry thing to do is to kind of follow what the broader needs of the industry are and tell them what they want to hear? Or is it really looking at the trends in the market and reflecting what we need to do going forward

and accepting that? Or is it just because we built the infrastructure of this medium so much around audio that that that's the the appropriate position to take? Well, I I liken it to fly fishing. And I've never fly fish, but I know people that do. Right. You know, if they aren't biting on one lure, you put another lure on, and you throw it out there and see if you get a bite. So, it's it's a shiny object thing. You

know? And something new it's whatever it is whatever the hotness is today will be something else tomorrow. Podcasters and me alike have chased those shiny objects in the water and thinking that this brand new thing is going to bring success. When in the end Yeah. In the end, it really boils down to really only one thing, sustain superior content. If people get bored Yeah. I agree. At

the end of the day, it's true. I do think this conversation isn't quite as not just you and I, but what's happening in the industry isn't at the level that it needs to be. Because I'm not sure it's a black and white issue, right? It's, it's, for many content creators doing, doing video is, is something that they primarily do. Right? And increasingly I'm, I'm hearing on big video podcasters or video YouTubers or whatever are

announcing on their shows. I think it's an interesting trend that they, they're about to launch their audio podcast. Right? So I'm I'm hearing these big content creators starting to recognize the fact that they need to have an audio version as well. Right? So you have kind of two things going on here. You've got, these big video creators realizing that maybe they're missing some audience by not doing an audio

version or an audio podcast. That's why our pod to vid is bet met and exceeded all KPIs. Right. So I think there's a shift going that way, but then there's also, you know, audio

first Yeah. Content creators that are, you know, building some success and growing, but they're they're saying, well, what if I do, let's say, one live show a week or if I do a bonus video content that's that's additional to what what I'm doing with my podcast, right, that that might be a way to engage community and engage their their followers at a deeper level, right, or to have some audience engagement.

So I think that this conversation gets a little too siloed around around audio versus video, audio versus video, when it's really what's happening in the market is these things are blending together. And even Tom's research that he shared with us is that increasingly people are consuming this content in both mediums. Right? So so if they can watch it, they will watch it. If they only can listen, they'd like to listen. So catering to the needs of the listener conversation about it yet.

Well, we we've trained this audience because they watch on Apple Podcasts, 20% of them. Right? Right. So I know. You and I are on board with this. I'm just saying that I mean, because you're you're taking your company and you're positioning it to be, you know, a a cooperative platform for those that want to create video too, as a way to capture their audio to create an audio podcast. I think that's that's the right way to think about this.

At the same time at the same time, you know, part of the argument that I had on, one of the Mastodon chats was it's too expensive to do a podcast via our assess feed. So, you know, I What? A video podcast? Yeah. Yeah. Assess feed? Yeah. So, you know, I basically, you know, I I kind of hinted at it. We're we're gonna do something, where we're gonna have, you know, our pro users have been able to do video since really we've been hosting.

But really, it's still they have to pay for bandwidth if they go over a certain amount and, you know, if you have a super successful show, it can get good. But I'm willing to go on some risk at this point based on what I'm paying for bandwidth and knowing that probably the majority of shows are not gonna get a huge amount of traffic via RSS, video. Video video. Via video. And some will.

And that those that I you know, there's always some outliers out there that are gonna make me, you know, you know, I'm gonna choke on the bandwidth bill. It's just like my petabyte, customer that's moving a petabyte of data into Nigeria. You know, that that one, you know, I paid a little premium for that data to go to Nigeria. I know. And, a petabyte. Now that's that's some data for when you're when you are getting a per gigabyte bill from your provider,

there's there's a lot of zeros there. So but that's what the game you play as a host is you pray you don't get a petabyte user, you know, but at the same time that petabyte users helps you get a lower rate. So it's it's a it's a love it's a love hate thing. So the the bandwidth thing you think at this point was 5 years ago, there's no way I could have financially afforded to do this at risk and now I, you know, there probably is. Why? Why do I wanna do it this

way? Well, we have to because someone has to stand up and say, hold the line. Hold the line. It's like World War 2. Hold the line. Because if regardless of not, if things continue, podcasting will be on YouTube and will be on Spotify. And hosting companies will go extinct and then guess what you will have? Dictatorship and monopolies that control your media, control what you say, will ice you out because you said one wrong bad word. And then there'll be a lot of people

left self posing. It'll be the last man standing and it's gonna like so we have to hold the line at this point. And it's it's not necessarily for business survival. We're not at that point. But we also have to do a better job of educating content creators. We're here to help you. We want you to succeed. We're providing great tools for you. Go ahead and go over there and just be on a platform and be blind.

This is why we need a Got Milk for podcasting to make podcast listeners understand why audio is important. Though, I think you're the problem with that is that you're not being very future looking with this medium. Well, I am being future. Focusing just on audio. Or oh, no. I have to All the research is showing is that people want to consume both, just at different parts of their life. Yeah. We have to reeducate. It's like the 55 plus crowd that's underserved right now, and

they mostly listen. They don't mostly watch. Yeah. It's okay to start playing a a video, and and put your phone in your pocket and just listen to the audio, too. So there's kind of I mean, not, not that everybody's going to do that. Who's going to do that? Well, I guess it depends on what your preferred, consumption platform is. Do they support video? Do they support

audio? Do they have both? If they don't have both, if they don't, and this is where the Podcasting 2.0 initiative comes into play and is really important as you look to the future, is that the conversations we need to be having with audiences is not around format. Right. Right. Or if it's audio or video, it should be the content. It should be about the the portability of the content. What's different about

podcasts versus mainstream media? We we should be drawing contrast to get people more into podcasting, but the problem is we can't seem to get our hands around really as an industry and embrace specifically what a podcast is. You know, because I Because we're getting pulled all these different directions in perception. I'm not gonna try to define what a podcast is, but I will tell you this. Well, you're gonna have to do a Got Milk campaign. Well, you it it it's it's about

this lean in engagement. It's about companionship. It's, you know, again That's my entire point. Right? So Is what is this media game's message Right. That will drive what? What are we trying to drive? We're just trying to drive more listening Absolutely. Viewers? And we also have or trying to we need to promote continue to promote the value of audio. And if they wanna we will have to say if you wanna watch on video, go look on your big screen.

Right. But we wouldn't discourage people. See, this is the other part of it too is is that as we look at our assess, and one of the reasons that we're here is because we we walked away from our assess based video delivery. We didn't walk away from it. Yeah. We did. Yeah. Yeah. I'll defend it. We have. I'll defend it. We've been supporting it from the get go. We and we advertise. Okay. Okay. But supporting is different than promoting it. Oh, we promote it. So, okay.

We have We have 3 companies in the podcast space right now that support video. That's it. Well, good. Makes gives me lots of opportunity to get business. That happened in about what? 2008, 2009 where the industry started pulling back from video because they just gave up because because of YouTube. Well, they gave up because it was hella expensive. It was it you know, and I was, you know, in 2008 that there weren't valid reasons. In 2 in 2,008, I was paying a dime for a gigabit.

You know, a dime. 10¢ a gig. And you'd in this show alone, you know, it's it would have cost like a dime to deliver this show to every listener. So, of course, we no one could afford it, but it doesn't bandwidth doesn't cost a dime no more. Right. Totally. And that's Yeah. That's another argument for why why do we continue to focus on just audio.

Let's Right. Let's focus on what the consumers want, which is audio and video because I think if we keep doubling down on audio Oh, I'm not saying we're going to miss no. This is a thought. We're we're gonna miss the arc of the interest of the listener, right, or the viewer and miss the opportunity and invariably drive people to YouTube and to Spotify to consume

the video. Well And and if we don't, as an industry, kind of say, well, we're gonna take back video via RSS and make it open and make it, not proprietary, not as as proprietary, then that gives us an opportunity to hold on to RSS. Because if we just hold on to audio in RSS, I think that the industry is under threat. It's not in threat from listeners because I'm looking at the monthly stats report and I'm still delivering 300,000,000 plus audio listens a month.

And Yeah. I'm thinking like over the next 3 to 5 years. Okay. Well, again, all the audiences are not gonna abandon it. More. And I don't think I don't think they're gonna abandon audio podcasting for video. People that listen want to listen. They're abandoning it. I'm saying that the interest of the newer generation is trending and you're seeing Oh, absolutely. Is trending more towards video. Until they get a little older.

Well, that's what we've always said is that thank God for podcast listeners as they get older because then their their interest in different types of content change too. Well I believe that's been the Video is not the savior of podcasting. Let's just put it that way. It is a companion content to podcasting. There are bigger bigger issues at play than just video. Well, I think it could could be the savior for RSS because then A savior for RSS. RSS is not going anywhere, Rob.

Come on now. No. I'm You've drank a little bit too much of the YouTube Kool Aid. No. It's not about YouTube, Todd. I'm talking about video as a as a content medium. I'm not talking about Well, the problem is then is okay. So What I'm talking about is is the audience wanting the content that that they're increasingly wanting and that's that's

audio and video. And if we silo our assess into just audio, then we become just an audio medium, which which isn't embracing and it's leaving the door wide open for these other proprietary platforms that take over the other half of the industry, which is video. Oh, they are already doing that. When you have I mean, you just made my Well, but the thing is you're you're gonna have a hard time. So I don't know. I don't know what

the future is. But I'll say this. Well, it's When you here's oh, here's Podcast podcast 2.0, the alternative Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the audio. So you have both available to consumers. Listen to this podcasters. I we can't say who, but I think you actually came to me with this, Rob. Right? That a certain advertising firm is telling their podcasters, maybe you weren't the one. But, anyway, I I thought you were the one that came

up and told me this. A certain advertising firm that shall remain unnamed is telling their podcasters to no way in beep beep beep to have their video, override their audio on Spotify. They say separate. Oh. Because guess what? Guess what? Yeah. The stats Well, now this is this is this is beautiful. 50% less listens or watches when the video is primary. The audio let's say the audio version of the show was getting a balance.

No. No. No. Todd, you're you're you're portraying it to fit your position. Oh, absolutely. Not what was going on here. So what's going on is there's a bug in the metric system. Or is it Cracking. Is it, bugging so they're getting so they're getting 50% less views according to the reporting right now than they are on audio. And it's above. Yeah. But I wouldn't draw any specific conclusions on on that because it could be cause for other reasons which haven't been determined. Convenient.

Well, no. It's not convenient. It's it's well There could be a technical problem. There could be a a UX problem. Well then if they're if they're telling their podcasters make sure they have 2 listings, there's there's obviously this has been going on for a while and there's panic because they're not making as much money. Yeah. Just because one implementation of this, wasn't done right doesn't destroy the concept of

it. I mean, the actual concept of having both there, we've talked about in the podcast medium for a very long time of having audio and video in an item in an RSS feed, right? And having that as options for the consumer. And that will directly compete against Youtube and these platforms that want to be video only, right. Because we're able to offer audio and video at the same time,

and to present that. And I know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry, and it happened even at podcast movement where all the hosting companies got together and talked about this. Everybody's thinking about how to do something better with video. Well, good luck, and good luck on the bill on that. Randy says the younger generation, the ones who want to play video on the dashboard of their cars while driving. That's probably true. Adam

says our bit rates some point yeah. I mean, at some point, that's probably gonna happen. Our bit rates are so low, there will be all we only be older listeners in a few years. Our our birth not not bit rate. Our birth rates are so low. It's true. Sound Off Media says some things to consider about the lack of content creators at PM 24. We have made podcasting easier than ever, free hosting, AI, posting those easily recorded videos on YouTube.

But are those folks getting any traction? 99% no. Plus more networks and representative creators and in the other factors Todd mentioned, why would a creator go? Beauty Bible says we are young and contrast the years we live and everyone here more than likely are playful and kids with our curiosity and wisdom. Adam says I don't podcast for money, I podcast for Jesus. All the people are having fun in the chat room today. So, keep on trolling, Adam. Go ahead. It's it's fantastic.

You know, I I and again, I think going back. I'm all in on RSS. I Me too. You know? Yeah. I'm it's like that second amendment things. Take take my, you know, take my RSS out of my dead hands, you know, that, you know, but that could end up that instead of debt, it could be bankrupt. That could be the word. You know, we're okay, but I'm just, you know, you know, we have to be we

have to be realistic here. We have to, you know, protect this space and evangelize, at least on the podcasting side, the values of open RSS. And it's often lost on people in a in a big big way until until Todd, this is the email. Todd, I was the I was deplatformed. And I'm like, sorry. I I need to get my show up on podcasting. Great. Because they figured out that, you know, or an episode gets deplatformed.

And, you know, we won't talk about the company that that I haven't got any this week, so it's it's it's rare that I haven't got any deplatformed episodes. But the other thing that's more crazy is why aren't the podcasters that we inform that have been their content's been taken down, we tell them why don't they squawk? Why aren't they on social media screaming bloody murder and making a story of it? I don't know. Is everybody scared to do such things on

social media? People people are afraid to, you know, think they're whole It's a whole another kind of subtext to this open medium of podcasting is Yeah. So, you know, Amazon had a booth about 800 feet long at podcast movement. 30 wide. Who did? Or was it was it Amazon or was it, who had the big booth? SiriusXM. Oh, yes. Sirius. They came to the show like it was NAB, and I I have no idea how much that thing cost. It was probably half a1000000, you know, I I don't know what the

booth cost. It was a lot and, I don't know what they were doing to be honest with you. I saw some signs and and they had a one thing on their sign that said, indie podcasters. I kinda giggled over that one, but they had a massive booth there and, but we know where Amazon was. Amazon was spending money on this $100,000,000 3 year contract with, Jason Travis Kelsey. I don't I don't even know didn't even know they had a podcast, to be honest with you. I don't know who they are.

So Yeah. Are they celebrities or what are they? I don't know that much about them either, and I I think that speaks to the to the generational differences, Todd, between us and them. Yeah. So I'm gonna I'm gonna open up a I'm gonna go to the book of knowledge as stealing that from the from the, from a certain show, called No Agenda. Who are they? Oh, they are Kelsey Brothers. I may have seen these folks at some point.

Yeah. So the big news was they signed a $100,000,000 deal over 3 years and it said the deal included rights to create international audio adaptations. Basically, meaning is that their podcast is gonna be translated into, German. You know, I don't know this. Brazilian and and and Mexican language or or Spanish. Yeah. The the key is was up to a 100,000,000. I mean, Adam just refreshed this. That says up to a 100,000,000. So here's the reason. I'm not a football guy.

More They are a they are odd news that says more than a 100,000,000. Yeah. Well well, the presser is worth up to a 100,000,000. It's agreement is Oh, okay. Yeah. So it's the PR folks did a good spin on it. So of course, now that I've kinda got some context, Jason Kelsey is from the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelsey from the Kansas City Chiefs. Isn't he the one that is, dating, Taylor Swift? Okay. Now Yeah. Okay. So now I'm tuned in. Oh, see, I don't watch football.

So I don't either. So So everyone everyone's like screaming at the top of their lungs. You don't know who that is? You know once I read the name and the I'm not a Swifty either. I'm not a Swifty. So So those of you that are, like, saying, are you stupid? Well, yeah. I don't follow celebrities. So, so I think that they that the Amazon folks were were counting on the show being successful because of the Of course. With Of course. Because with Taylor Swift.

And expecting Yeah. 4 and a half times the audience than what you would normally get Yeah. Just because of the relationship. So again, here you got a celebrity already because they are NFL superstars. Player. Right. And they got that money, not your average Joe Podcaster. Joe Podcaster just got what? 0. Got a big donut hole. And none of those folks were a podcast movement. That's for sure. That is for sure. So we can't do this episode and not talk about kind of the the elephant in the room

Hang on one second. Podcast Movement. My show is on track to make 1,000,000,000 this year. That's what someone just said in the chat room. It's on track to make 1,000,000,000. On track? This year? Or Hey, Rob. We're on track this year to make a whole $1,000. Oh, yeah. There you go. There you go. Yeah. So the, kind of wow moment that I had a podcast moment was at the, the keynote. First day. Yeah. That was I didn't go to that.

Yeah. So so the first keynote or, right, I can't remember the first or the second. By the way, I've ordered One was and it was Steven Bartlett, who is the host of a podcast, video show on YouTube. Very, very popular, called the diary of a CEO. And I've watched his show on on YouTube quite a few times. He does a terrific production of his video show and I guess he's doing, I'm not doing an audio podcast too, but his, his presentation to the audience was, really indicative

Yeah. This bigger trend of the professionalization of podcasting. Rob Rob, how many people do we have on staff? You and I. 65. Now how many people do we have on staff? Oh. 0. 2. I mean, for just for this Yeah. For you and me, we have 2. Right? Right. Okay. So CEO of a diary has how many people on staff? 65. So, Adam, you do a show with John c Devore. How many people do you have? Well, I I know how he's gonna say he's gonna say 1,000 because they do. They have producers.

So they have people that contribute to the show. Those are listeners. Right? But now they're producers. They're not listeners. They're producers. So be careful. You're gonna get upset at them. They're producers. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. So so he's a very, very large content creator, has millions of people watching this show. He does a really interesting job of teasing his content at the

beginning. He's very focused on trying to deliver that necessary, you know, hook at the very beginning of a video on YouTube that is so mandatory now where you kind of drive, you know, the audience to, look for questions to be answered by posing questions without answers at the beginning of the show. So, so he has this kind of video intro for each of his shows, and and he was very specific about, embracing this concept of failure as a stepping

stone into success. Now when I say embracing failure, he has a, a guy that he hired, who's dedicated, whose focus in his job title is chief failure officer. One of his 65 people on staff. Right. Exactly. His whole job is to look for elements in his production or his publishing or the distribution or monetization that would be considered to be not meeting expectations, right? That are failing in some way or need to be

optimized. And he goes through all these processes and I do think that, Mr. Beast does this as well. And that's why these guys are gaining so much success is that they're very analytical about analyzing what they're producing and how they're producing it and what the experience is. Speaking of which, I sent you a present, Rob. You did? I did. I went on Amazon and I found a c o two monitor

And I've shipped that to you. Said he used I've mounted I've shipped a c o two monitor to your house along with a 5 I actually, it's been delivered in a few days of 500 pound oxygen tank. So that when your c o two levels get just a little bit low that you can you can feed the room a little a little oxygen. Now make sure you don't have any, open flame or anything like that in your studio or in your house. Right. Because we don't want you to go boom.

But, yes, we're we're we're making sure your c o two levels don't get too now I live in the country, so I I there's no c o two out here. Right? Because I'm only competing with the cows party. Right. So Yeah. Just the cows party. Right? All that methane. My god. But this guy measures c o two in the room and stops the interview if it gets too low. Yeah. Then he has to ventilate the room to get the get the c02 out of it, get more oxygen in there because he gets, better interviews, he says.

Because the guests that he has in there will perform better. If there's a higher level of oxygen in the room. So Which which actually technically actually is probably true. You know, marijuana at a certain stage in life needs 1400, cubic meters for something, you know, of c 02 for them to perform better, you know. And, and then a certain stage of, growing weeds like If you're a human, you don't wanna be in that room. Right.

Yeah. The the see it the the the weed loves c o two, but you go in there, it's probably not good for you. Because I think normally Probably not good. 670, whatever the number is. But what was his actual number? Do you remember? I I think he was talking about over a 1000 parts per million. He sees a drop off How many? Guest guest a 1000 parts per million he sees a drop off in guest performance. If you have a room that's getting a 1000 parts per million, you've got an issue already.

Well, you do. And that's that's kind of his point. Right? Is that it needs to get down probably closer to to 400 or something like that, and he'll get peak performance out of his guests. So which actually is closer to outside environment. So In the 3 to 400 range. But let's, you know, in in now no joking. Here's the thing where's another sign if things are out of touch.

You've got an event where you have whatever the number was of podcasters there that are chasing 1% of money and you have a keynoter that talks about their 65 people on staff. Yeah? Uh-huh. I can relate. What's going on over at, YouTube, Tyler? I can I can relate? Yeah. Sixty 5 people on staff. Well, and that's part of what we see happening over there is that, those are yeah. They're big. Big big companies really are are being birthed

over there again. You know, in the early days of YouTube, there there were big companies that were focused on Youtube as well. And so now we've, we saw a pullback for a few years and now it's been individual creators that were doing things with Youtube. And what we're seeing as we move away from the era of mainstream media, right, people are increasingly moving over to getting their news and information from digital sources.

I I think YouTube and those those type of platforms are gonna continue to accelerate in their growth. So something near and happening. Something near and dear to your heart, you should actually talk to Adam. He's starting, I don't know the details. I just heard a hint of it. He is starting initiative or working with someone to really, local podcasting. And again, I I just I know that much. And, you'll have to he's, you know, I The topic,

came up at podcast movement too. I've been increasingly hearing that as well, around, you know, the potential of local podcasting now that we've reached a certain, penetration of sorts of audience in the market. That was always what held back local podcasting, was the how many people in any given locality would be open to listening to a podcast, right?

That was always the gatekeeper and that's where radio kind of occupied that space, is that historically more local people listen to local radio than they did. But they they've given it away because they went to full automation and maybe maybe they have someone on drive time. I'm I'm just being a little snarky today, so I do have to, Are you ready for a new microphone? Am I ready for a new microphone? Yep. And I'm I'm expecting to be able to be on the list to get one of these gold.

One of these gold cure Curry 1 microphones. The Curry 1. Woah. Yes. I had this mic since, 2000 Well not. You know. So I'm a I'm I'm gonna put my name on the list for a gold Curry 1. And, Oh, so mister Curry is getting his own microphone. Yeah. It's it's his, exit plan. So we have to help him with his exit plan because, we're all getting older. You know? Adam just recently had a birthday and and turned the big 6 o. Of course, I beat him to it by a couple of months, but

but Curry won. Me. Right? Well, you know, Rob, you you know, in all reality, you can retire anytime you want. You're just you're just hanging around for the fun of it. Oh, you oh, you think that's what's going on? Okay. You know, I think that, here's what we really, really have to do. And this is just the, like, crux of everything. We just gotta keep creating great content.

People need to create great content. At the end of the day Doesn't matter if it's doesn't they're not gonna watch video or audio. If it's great content, they're gonna watch or listen. Yeah. Well, that's true. That's that's the bottom line, really, at the end of the day. And and increasingly, I think that's what's happening, is that the bar has been raised,

whether we like it or not. I mean, there's a lot of tension out there right now between, let me say authentic, real kind of, you know, rough grassroots content versus this very polished stuff. And I heard, this was a few months ago, that even Mr. Beast, you know, who's notorious for creating highly produced, you know, type of video, talking about this, saying, you know, he's just gone too far down the rabbit hole of overproduction. And so maybe there's a balance coming between

stuff like we do here, Todd. It's, it's very authentic. It's very organic. It's very real. It's not, you know, polished and with lots of transitions and explosions happening behind us and stuff like that, which is what you're seeing, on the video side increasingly as people are, you know, being very provocative.

They're being they're they're very focused on controversial topics, maybe being a little negative, maybe, you know, constantly talking about things that are going on that are gonna end the world and things like that. I will tell you this though too. I think that the the failure rate of content creators in other words, those are doing podcast, YouTube, whatever they're doing. I think the pressure's heavier on the YouTube side because once they get a little bit of garner of success,

then they're married. It's okay. So if you're a farmer and you're a dairy farmer, those cows are gonna be milked twice or 3 times a day. They have to be. Those cows got to be milked. You don't have a vacation. You don't have someone that's come in. Your your vacation to Hawaii is being canceled because you gotta milk those cows. YouTube is about feeding the logo and content creators over there have to feed the beast.

And the beast is the YouTube beast. And if they don't feed the YouTube beast, they're not recommended. They fall out of favor. They lose their audience. They lose their income. Whereas in podcasting, there's none of that. You you yes. You should publish to a schedule, but your audience is not going to give if you've been published long enough, your audience is not gonna give up on you if you take a week or 10 days off. They're still gonna be there. You can

feed them a supplementary content. It doesn't have to be brand new polished content. So I think the machine is the machine of YouTube is going to cause people have heart attacks, lose hair like I've lost mine, which come from advertisers, believe it or not, and raising 3 girls. And and then, I I think that really is going to be the

the Achilles heel here. You're not gonna who is do you know if anyone besides some super duper top books that have lasted 20 years or 18 or 17 years over on on the belly of the beast over on YouTube? How many shows have lasted that long? So I I think the ability for audio creators have longer sustainability because of less production, less pressure to create content needs to be something we have to talk about. I I remember my good friend, Annie McCasky,

and you know him, Rob. Yeah. He was doing slash slash dot review news, a daily show, 20 minutes. Right. He lasted, I think, three and a half years because the pressure was so great to produce a show every day. He burned himself out. That candle got snuffed, and he's never come back. And he had a great show making big money in the early days of podcasting. Big money. Big, big, big money. And and, you know, in comparison. But he couldn't sustain it. So he he pulled the

plug. So I think the pressure to do great if you're gonna feed that beast over there, I think there's an incredible amount of pressure to stay relevant and keep producing. I I I don't know if that's sustainable for a long, long time. If I was relying on if I had to feed the Illago over there, I'd quit I'd quit. Too much pressure. And that's what you hear from But I think that's gonna come to

podcasting too. I I think that there's a lot of people in the podcast industry that will tell you that they're, they're envious of the the recommendation engine that YouTube has. So there is some well, they're recommending. Go ahead. Yeah. This gets back to a little bit like we've talked about in prior episodes around metrics to, advertisers are wanting more listener player

metrics, right? And this is going to play into this model that they're going to look at YouTube and they're going to say, wow, look at all the data that we get out of YouTube. Why doesn't podcasting have that level of headlock? And, And that's that's what the industry is going to be. I think these bigger platforms are going to feel pressure to do that, especially ones that are focused on advertising. Now granted, you know, if you look at Apple,

Apple is not focused on advertising. So I don't think Apple really cares that much to have an outgrow that that is really, positioned to share that level of data. Right? So so by the way, do you know how many people Rogan has on staff? I didn't know this, but, our our beloved pod father does because he's been on the show. Do you know how many, staff people Rogan has? Take a guess. Give me a number. I've always heard that it was maybe about,

3 or 4 people. 2. 2. Okay. 2. I thought that I mean, he must have a liaison with, Spotify. Well, I'm sure that's probably one of the 2. But if you have 2 him and his producer, I think is has been his companion for years. It's the same thing with Marc Maron. I think Marc has been a 2 person team for all these years. Can you imagine paying the salary of 65 people? I know what it cost to pay Sal. Holy shit. I know what the stat I know what it okay. So let's talk about that for a second.

So think about the pressure that guy's under. If you got 65 people on staff, let's just say a medium income. I mean, low. Let's go $40 a a month and just do that number. And, you know, not all those folks are making 40 grand. He's got people on his staff. They're probably making a 100,000. The his bill, his his set his his good lord. I don't I don't have 65 people on my team at Blueberry. You know, we hover between 15 18. So and I know what that cost us annually. You know, that's a big number.

Yeah. Especially when you have developers that are, you know, you know, developers are not cheap. Yeah. And given the, that we saw Stephen Bartlett as a keynote at Podcast Movement is maybe a sign that those big YouTuber creators are increasingly looking to podcasts for them to capture that market too. Because he did say up on stage that he felt that currently today, podcasting feels small to him. Oh, I would. If you have I'm sure. It it depends on his audience size, you

know. Would you call Rogan's audience small? You know, so No. But Joe Rogan is doing something very similar to what Steven Bartlett is doing. Well, he wasn't up until recently because he wasn't allowed. Well, he is right now. Yeah. Just of the and I do think that this is indicative of the trends that we're seeing. In in the next 10 years, there can only be 4 or 5 Joe Rogans in the podcasting space. There can't be there will not be more than that. Well, it depends on what scale you're talking

about. Rogan had Rogan have well, we'll have smaller creators, but Rogan's been king for how long? 5, 6 years? 7? Yeah. But he's not gonna remain the largest forever. Right? He's gonna get older and he's gonna get replaced by a We'll see. Somebody like a Stephen a Stephen Bartlett. No. Maybe. You know, who knows? Right? Who knows? That's the bigger trend. And, you know, if if I was if I was Joe Rokin, I'd be putting every penny I could away. And then when I get tired of doing it,

I would say, okay. We're done. Thank you very much. Exactly what it is. Go retire. Exactly what it is. But, you know, guys like him though it will get bored and he won't retire. So, you know, it's like me. What if I retired? What am I going to do? Go play shuffleboard? No. Well, yeah. I think I think to some degree, the same thing has happened to Mark and Barron too. I mean, Mark's not in the conversation as much anymore around the big podcasters and stuff. I'm not

sure. How old is Rogan? I don't know. Just let me use the I think he's in his in his fit in his probably his mid mid fifties probably. But, but, yeah, I mean, I'm not hearing much about 57. Anymore. 57. Most people don't know who he is. Increasingly, you know, I know that Adam Carolla is still still out there doing a show and is popular, but he's not as big as a Joe Rogan or or probably even a Steven Bartlett now because Stephen is internationally. Mark Maron is 60 years old.

He's 60. Okay. Yeah. So at 60 we get put the flash pastures. Is that what happens? No. I would well, I hope not, but but that's but but, I mean, eventually. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's just the natural tendency. Or we die. You know, that's how it works. Yep. Google doesn't know how old I am, which is funny. I'm not Yeah. So this you know. Yeah. I saw this article with the title, it says podcast used to be ad light oasis. Yeah. Whatever. Not anymore. We are here. Some hosts.

Right. Right. Some hosts and and executives worry ad creep will hurt the medium for both listeners and marketers says this article in the Wall Street Journal, Oxford Road's Dan Granger, who has been a guest on this show, is quoted as saying this is not going in a direction that's going to end well for any of us. So that gets back to ad loads. Well, and you know you know, it's you're talking to one of the main, you know, main main movers of advertising and it's his own fault.

He's allowed it to happen instead of yeah. I I No. No. No. No. Cry me a river of tears. I don't care. Well, this is I mean, you have to think of it from his perspective. He's an ad buyer. Yeah. K. So he's he's the one who's been buying deeps to cry me a river of tears. Shouldn't have been loading loading the content so much. Should have been going deeper. No. I'm I'm not sure that you're seeing it how I'm seeing it. Is it this is the position that you would take to try and get better ad rates.

Well, it's a race to the bottom anyway. So So it's it's a way to say, you know, all those publishers out there, you're, you know, you're getting into the danger zone, and if you're gonna talk to us, we're gonna dicker you down on CPMs because you're you're overloading your content. It's it's With ads. That's the message that comes out of this. Here's what I learned in 2,005. They coulda hired they coulda hired me, did a little consulting thing.

In 2005, my hour and 10 minute podcast could do one ad spot at the beginning to my beloved sponsor, GoDaddy, and a second spot midway through, which at the time was Citrix GoToMeeting. We did very well. Audience didn't complain. Audience numbers continue to grow. It was good. But, boy, as soon as I added that third spot and this is when audiences actually provided feedback and didn't actually click off and go somewhere else. They howled bloody murder.

And I learned that my show could do 2. 2 was the limit. And if I did 3, the audience started to leave. The problem is these podcasters, the audiences don't care enough anymore to provide feedback. So guess what they do? They just leave. They've got the first minute of of the of the show listened to, so they get they get the ad count, but the listener has left. And guess what? They don't they're not engaging

in the ads. So, you know, it's just like a certain political show that I tried to listen to. Tried. Mhmm. And it was like, on my 7th or 8th ad, I said, I'm done. I didn't even hit 30 seconds. I just I just bounced. Whereas, I was talking to someone the other day, so we just fast forward through ad. We just click click click click click click. Oh, yeah. I just click click click there at 30 and I'm in the car, that 32nd advanced button is fantastic. So we quit we keep missing, though,

you know, the the real thing here. We can do we we've talked about it a lot of times in the show. Ads are not everything. There's other ways to get support for your show. Time, calendar, treasure. Yeah. And, Todd, yeah, I wanted to share the screen with you here really quick too. Let me get you ready here. Here. So we've got,

oh, yes. I talked to a fellow at Podcast Movement who was their I believe he's an attorney, but, what's, what's going on here is that this is an article that was written by David Oxenford, who does a blog called Broadcast Law Blog, and, and he comments in here. So this was just published just, just a day or so ago. It says, This week I spent some time at Podcast Movements in a convention

this year held in DC. While the convention is always a good time to catch up with industry friends and Spot Nutrient AI was of course a topic that was discussed on several panels. And it was virtually, it's in every media conference these days. And it also is a reminder of what's going on at the FCC around other regulations. And I guess what's recently happened is that the FTC has put out a notice about, as the title of this article says, podcasters and broadcasters disclose sponsors.

Oh, maybe you know So Just between interesting topic. Right? Just between you and me. Point Go ahead. Right. Well, yeah. I just wanted to set it up here a little bit more just to say that, podcast industry is always at its best performance around sponsorship and endorsement and when it's been able to blend content with the ad, right? So this is, you know, where the audience kind of transitions between content into ads very, very smoothly without any kind of disruption.

Now I know when we launched, Dynamic Ad Insertion, You can still do that to some degree, but then we started to move towards kind of more hard breaks kind of scenarios. Yeah, bring your bring your face back to forefront, Ralph. Go ahead. Okay. Okay. And so so this is what what is kind of interesting about this. The the FCC is finally starting to, you know, crack down. There's been rules for this forever, so they're now just going to start cracking down? Well, I think there's some new ones.

I think that there was a new law passed, here recently. It's not laws. It's a regulation so they can enforce Yeah. It's a yeah. It's a regulation. Yeah. Right. Here's here's the thing. It's, where they really need to go after people is in some of these Facebook groups where the same person is in this thing hot and heavy and promoting the same thing again and again, and they have no financial they're they're not they're not, you know and it tell me tells me you're getting

paid to shill. You're not disclosing it. I don't know how you ever catch those people. Right. You know, I don't know how you catch the Shillers because, boy, there are a number of them in a variety of podcasting groups that I know. I know for sure are getting paid to shill. They're 2 they're 2 they're 2, what's the word I wanna use? They're too persistent. You know, I think that's the word. And I've actually called a few people out over the years, and some of those folks

have quietly disappeared. But I guess there was a a, Federal Trade Commission final rule that came out this past week on this topic, and that's what this is here. So you can find it if you And there's a lot of, you know, where this probably originates. There's a lot of people that are shilling product on TikTok and a variety of different places and and

not disclosing. They're getting a paid paid endorsement, paid, you know, print they they basically are getting a brand lift deal of some sort and paid us I've been offered a lot of those deals where, hey. We want you to talk about our product, and we'll write you a $1,000 check. And I'm like, okay. For the record, I disclose. Well, we we don't want you to do that. We just want you to talk about our product. I'm like,

I don't do it. But there's, you know, where there's one in me that says no, there's a 1,000 people that say yes. You know? They've been surviving off a cup of coffee, donation, and, someone comes in and because you got 5,000 people watch your TikTok videos, they say, hey. Talk about or wear our clothes or, you know my daughter, has 2 my 2 grandchildren are, big time in, basically getting clothes from, manufacturers.

And, on her Instagram post, every Instagram post where she shows the kids, she discloses that are in there. And she says she gets probably 75% less deals because she discloses on Instagram. So people are being marketed to left and right, and they they don't even know that they're being marketed to. Yeah. Yeah, I shared another, kind of kind of view of the actual FTC kind of kind of ruling on this that has the whole summary and all that stuff.

And what's interesting is the headline on this really really encapsulates kind of a a multidimensional kind of view on this. And it's trade regulation rule on the use of consumer reviews and testimonials. Oh, that's Yeah. There are elements of this that fall into, you know, like fake, Amazon reviews. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fake Amazon, product reviews. And there's whole companies out there. I've been approached by a couple of them.

I like going to work for them to say, you know, all you have to do is go in and give a positive review of this product and this product and this one will pay you so much a month, you know, or a week or something like that to go in and post fake reviews of products and I just won't do it. And it's just a matter of this is what it's going after is it, you know, that's why it's so difficult to trust reviews on product websites.

And it's the same, kind of the same concept with podcasts too, or, you know, product review videos, that kind of stuff is that you have to be transparent about this stuff. And I think they are gonna start cracking down on this stuff. It's it's not it's not as bad as it used to be, but I used to get literally by UPS would drop 4 or 5 things off every day. And I ended up with one room that just had boxes of product.

And, and I on my tech show, I around my tech on Geek News Central, I would do product reviews, but I actually did a real product review. And my rule was I have to have it. I use it for if the product was substantial enough, I'll use it for a week, and I'll write a review and I would disclose. I use it for 3 days, 5 days. This is what I found. I did real reviews for companies that asked me to and oftentimes, they said just keep the product. The product was maybe valuable enough that it was worth

my time. Maybe it was a laptop or monitor or whatever it was. And I and, you know, I had one company. I said, oh, I I said, you can have your product back. I said, this is this is junk. Well, more than once. It's junk. Yeah. Do you want me to do the review? It's not gonna be a pretty one. Right? And oftentimes, I think I only had 2 or 3 companies that said, no. Don't write the review. And and gave them time to respond, but I

always wrote exactly what I thought. So maybe that's why I'm not on such a popular list anymore. There's podcast there's YouTubers. Sam, the guy, does airplane reviews. Oh, he he he he, you know, I'm I'm sure all these airlines he flies on is glowing. You know? You watch one guy. He's, you know, give an airline review. And the next day, this other guy is like, where where you guys on 2 different flights and, you know Yeah. Yeah. He's flying around the world.

Yeah. Did you, you know, you know so, it's good that they have to reveal and disclose. Yeah. But And it does until until the FCC go protesting. Until an FCC guy goes after someone, and they're gonna have to go after someone big to make an impression. You know? But small people are just gonna continue to fly under the radar. I'm I'm afraid that's what's gonna happen. But Yeah. It's it's this blending of content with ads or sponsorship or whatever is the and to some degree that

that's increasingly happening even at podcast movement. I don't know if you notice that or not. In which regard? Well, so having whole sessions that are, that are populated by people from 1, one company. Yeah. So which I thought in the past was not what podcast movement allowed to happen. You know, you and I have been pretty hardcore over over the years. Whenever, you know, whenever I go and do a session, I talk about competitors. I talk about, you know, I I don't I don't show.

You're there to the the idea was to go to educate. And if it's if I go to a session, it used to be, I'd be able to go to a session. If it was a chill session, I could report that, and that person would get banned. So Yeah. I mean, I remember that there were there were sessions that were done, like, 5 or 6 years ago. Yeah. At at at podcast movement that turned into shill sessions, and there was, you know, those people were banned from coming to Podcast Movement again.

So But that that certainly is that's not the the ethic anymore. So, Chris, if you've been listening, we are looking forward to Podfest in January. We're looking forward to come and, to be there. And you have a you have a goal and opportunity, my friend, here to continue the narrative that Podfest is a creator conference, and there's not gonna be any private Spotify

room. There's no gonna be a private Libsyn room, and there's not gonna be a private, you know, whatever else has a room where the with the, you know, where the gatekeeper with the the rope the rope yarn. And if you're not on the list, you can't get into it. You know, so we we'll be happy to come down there and and, and be be, be with you at that show. So there's a op there's a huge opportunity here for something or someone to up their game in an incredibly big way.

Well, it's gotta be affordable. It's gotta be Yeah. You know, easy to get to. It's gotta have more of a community focus, not so much business, business, business focus. And really focus on trying to help creators be successful. And I think, and that's at a grassroots level. Not at the 65 person team level as much. Right. It's okay to address that market if you can, but I think Chris does a good job of having that as kind of like its own separate kind of

track that appeals to just those people. But even the people in the on the pro track or whatever it is, they still because I've spoken to that group before. The majority of them are hardworking independent content creators. They're normal They're growing their shit. Content creators. Right. And then, you know, I'm I'm starting to work on the hall of fame Oh. Which is coming back.

So so it's, it's shaping up to be more of an independent organisation to some degree, but also with very close ties to Podfest. So, so it's going to be, yeah, That's about all I can say about it right right now, but there's changes going on there too. Oh, okay. Yeah. Interesting. So, you know, if if Dan and Jared you guys are still here, if you've even listened to this, creator event. Please, let's think about making it creator friendly. We go back to Dallas. Let's let's have some potential to

Oh, and Chicago too. It's coming Chicago's again, Chicago, I expect Chicago to be an industry event. Yeah. But what's the distinction anymore? I don't see Well, that's that's the problem. There is no distinction. A matter of fact, someone in my Facebook comment got them mixed up. They thought the summer event was the industry event and LA was the creator event. I said, no. It's it's the opposite. So yeah. Yeah. I think it's the same event that just happens every 6 months Yeah. Now.

So Which, you know, for me at this point, that's gonna become challenging. So I'll have to make a decision in Chicago. Do we do we just go one time a year? And then come to the event and, you know, work out of our our backpack. You know? Yeah. Right. You know, have meetings, like, you know, at tables and stuff instead of, you know, home maybe have a an, you know, afternoon beer event at a bar nearby or something. It's, you know, that We can always always have a, was it a a brain date and a

meet up. Yeah. The brain date stuff was interesting. And I know one individual that had a brain date almost every hour. He didn't buy a booth. He just, you know, grained a bunch of brain dates and promoted the living crap out of him and did very, very well with the brain dates. So, you know, the the thing about that is you you open up a you open a can of worms then. So what happens when all of a sudden your brain date space is fuller than your exhibit space? Right.

Well, yeah. I think yeah. That's true. I mean, I think that the maximum capacity of a brain data, it's probably like maybe 6 or 7 people. But if you did one every hour or every couple hours or 3 a day. Yeah. I can have, I mean, you can just make a, you know, a new podcast creator, you know, start up kind of BrainDate. And they of course, you gotta attract people to BrainDate too. So but I don't think they do BrainDate at, I don't remember them doing it in LA.

Maybe they did and maybe I missed it. Oh, the evolutions Yeah. Event. Yeah. I don't know what that that name evolutions means anymore. Do you? I don't know. I there's no It doesn't have any any significant meaning. And there was no distinction. It felt like, a matter of fact, it felt again, it just felt and that's I was the only one. People said it just felt different. The thing I liked about Podfest is, man, people are excited to be there. They're gung ho. There's energy in the air.

People seeking information. You know? So it's it's the 90% that was not at Podcast Movement. That is for sure. Because the 10% that is at podcast movement will not go to podcast. A few will. A few. And some of the people that go to podcast won't go to podcast movement either. That's true. And my The other interesting thing that we saw at podcast movement on the floor was the size of the Daily Wire booth. Well, the Daily Wire booth had no Daily Wire people. It had security at the Daily

Wire. Yeah. There was no staff. There was, like, maybe someone there to hand out papers or something. And a popcorn and what was the other thing they were serving? I think it was mainly popcorn, but, like, merch and Should have been should have been tequila shots, to be honest with you. I could have used one, Thursday. Yeah. But they did have staff there. I talked to the guy there. They did have staff there. It's just that the staff wasn't

manning the booth. Oh. It was. The security detail So the staff was in a private meeting room? Well, they were off at meetings and doing Well, what was ironic is Daily Wire is on the floor after what happened a couple years ago. So, you know, it is telling. It isn't, isn't it? Yeah. It is. Why I think the most shocking thing was the fact that they had a security detail. Right. Well, you know Meaning the actual booth with, you know, daily

wire shirts and stuff. Right? Yeah. You know, considering historical stuff and what's going on in the country, probably it was probably probably they plan for the worst and hope for the best. Man, there is a a story to be told about them. Right? Those have been here long enough. I've heard it all. Yeah. That's true. You know? So I'm not complaining. You know, shows come and go. There are ebb and tides to shows. Well, you know Yeah. NAB ebbs and flows.

Different shows had ebbs and flows. And, you know, as long as the flow doesn't continue to go south and comes back north and grows, then it's okay. But we cannot live on our laurels anymore and guarantee that there will be you know, dollars are important these days. Very important. Yeah. Yeah. Why did I double down why did I double down for a podcast the podcast show in London? Why did I spend more money? This is the this is the thing that needs to be really go.

Why did I spend more money for the podcast show than I'll probably spend for 2 shows at Podcast Movement last year? Why did I? Why did I dig deep? There's a reason. Because that's a that's a newer, more potential market? It is a market. I got more potential business. More I came home with this much, a bucket full of follow-up that's still churning business. I'm still generating business from that show. I'm still signing clients and networks, and and I'm still doing business. And how many

months ago was that? It was in May, I think. Yeah. So we'll see how long I work takes me to get through. Again, the the proof will be in the it's my job once I get home to convert business. It's not any show's job to do. That's my job. But if the people aren't there to talk about, then or talk to, then, again, we're just there waving the flag saying, hey. We're in business. Thank you for thank you for business. Give them their your pin and everything else that goes along with that. So Yeah.

Alright. Well, we've Yeah. We went long. I thought this show might be 3 hours today. It's not gonna go 3 hours. Yeah. We're gonna go almost 2. Did we did we entertain everyone? Did we kept you leaned in for the whole hour and 49 minutes so far? You guys are so a number of people are still hanging on YouTube, so that's good. We got a few people on the I mean, top I'm that we're not both stand up comedians, so I don't know that we've kept everybody

enthralled. Oh, I think we've kept them entertained. I have to keep them entertained. Okay. So this is how you do it. Podcast fans. Got milk? Got podcast? You need to start promoting the values of podcasting whichever way you can. I did task my PR agency with work on trying to come up with something. We'll see. And whatever we come up with, we will give to the world to play around with. Will it take off? Who knows? But I did spend budget, say go come up with something.

And we'll see what become a podcast. The what? Got podcast. Now we'll see. We we don't wanna be total nerds and copy that way. But if you have ideas, you have ideas on a Got Milk campaign for podcasting, drop me a line if you're willing to donate it. And I'll turn it over to the PR firm and they can they can whack a mole at these ideas. We'll see what we come up with. I think it's

just has to be a collective effort. And what also Tom said was those that are successful in podcasting, the Joe Rogans, these other all these other folks, they've gained a lot because of the medium. Maybe they should start getting back in by promoting the medium as itself. That's all we do here. We do this 90 minutes or today, an hour 50. Every week, we give back. So Yeah. A lot of you those of you listening are podcasters. So guess what? Go and

spread the well. Right. Okay. [email protected]@geeknewsonx@[email protected]. And, you'll find me back here next week in the same chair, Rob. Alright. Rob, you wanna do your sign off? Maybe you missed my Oh, yeah. Yeah. You cut out on Oh, I did. Okay. Go ahead. So, yeah, I can be found on x as well at Rob Greenlee. And, if you wanna go to robgreenlee.com, you can see all my podcasts and video shows that I'm I'm doing.

I do a live show on Thursday nights at 7 pm Eastern called Podcast Tips and I've been doing, I think I'm on episode 38 of that series, Todd. And so that's the best way to reach out to me. If you want to send me an email, if you have comments or questions or something like that that would contribute to the show, send it to Rob Greenley, 2e's on the end, at gmail dot com. Alright, everybody. Thanks for being here. We'll be

back at the same time next week. Those who've been with us live and lit, thank you so much. Thanks for the streaming stats. For those of you that were streaming on a modern podcast app at podcastapps.com. And, really, we wanna hear what you think. Drop us a line. We do. Alright. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye bye. Okay.