Dave Jackson’s New Role at PodPage and the Value of Podcast Websites #595

Todd and Rob in the Afternoon. Afternoon delight. With Todd and Rob. Oh, yeah. Todd, we're actually back in the afternoon now. So I guess that Yeah. Makes more sense now. And I'm I'm sitting in very sunny southern Michigan and not jet lagging too hard. Been home under 48 hours. So Yeah. Okay. Gotten set up good. Looks good. Yeah. Well, you know, it's don't mind the mess behind me. Of course, you don't wanna see the boxes and computer monitors and just you you know, here's the funny thing.

When you tear down a studio that's about 1400 square feet and literally 24 hours and you packed the boxes. We we should've hired some kid to come in and just write on the boxes what they are. Because I have a box of cables, LAN cables, everything you can imagine. Do you think I can find that box? Of course not. Of course not. And I I have no idea where it says. So I'm going to the storage unit after the show today to see if I can find that box. Oh, well. Yeah. To be able to pods.

Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, what's even more funny is I rented the storage unit right next to it so that because the other one's so full, I need a place to sort. So I'm gonna be sorting in the other unit. Alright. And yeah. So anyway, I have a plan. So maybe next week or the week after, maybe there'll be something to show. So are you planning on building your kind of new production place there in the same place you're at right now? Gonna be right over there. Oh, it's gonna be in a

different location than you are right now. It's gonna be in this room, but right over there. Yeah. But in a different Right. Yeah. Visual screen area. Right? Yeah. This loft is a loft. It's 2,000 square feet of open open floor plans. So Got it. Got it. Yeah. Well well, we're lucky to have mister Dave Jackson with us. Dave, thanks for taking some time out today. I know you're in the middle of transition, and it's exciting to hear your new role as the, what, head of podcasting at the PodPage.

So I thought it was a good time to have you come on. And since you're kind of free of the Lipson Lipson world, but, you know, some things are gonna stay the same with you, I guess. Yeah. A lot of things. I'll still be going to events. I still have the school of podcasting. The the biggest difference. And because when I said I was leaving people like, oh, what's wrong with Lipson? I'm like, there's nothing wrong with Lipson. They're the same great people over there, but

I just I kept moving. I kept taking new positions that just got me further and further away from really what I like to do. Sure. Which is work 1 on 1 with people or work with I was working more with companies than, like, podcasters. And on one hand, yeah, that that company is a podcast, but I was working with they have the apps that we have for people. So I was working with Apple and Google a lot, and that is not always a picnic. And and if I could rewind it, the one thing I go, I could have

done that. That would have been nicer is I should have gone to Lisbon and said, I'm really not happy with what I'm doing. Can we find something else for me to do? But instead and I never I have a brain tattoo. I went, I got on a meeting with Rob, who I've known for like you guys, I've known him for 19 years. And I said, yeah. I'm leaving. And I just watched my words just clocking him in the face like nobody's business. And he was like Yeah. Because you know what he has to do.

Well, he has to replace me, but it's, yeah, he's got to find somebody else. Oh, it's going to be hard to replace you, Dave. Just or realize that, right? Todd has an or in there or no, but yeah. Okay. Okay. So, like yeah. So where are we going with that? Can you guys hear me? Yeah. I can hear you. We just you just kept scaling or, and we're like, yes. Yeah. I hit a button and I went deaf on my side for a second, so that's why I had to pause. Yeah. Never

make a change on the StreamYard, midstream. I found that out the hard way last time. I guess the question really is, did you actually are you much calmer now away from the chaos of Lipson? Is it No. There was only Well, I believe the question time. You only have 2 people. It's just you and another guy, which has gotta be a beautiful thing. Right. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't chaos.

They've got some things cooking. You know, I can't I promised I wouldn't reveal what what's coming from Libsyn, but they've got some things that are, you know, they're they've and and there was one I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Now that's the lips that I know and love. There was a new way of looking at things. It's on the way. So Wow. That's gonna be fun. But, yeah. So it was I I just kept telling them. I was like, it's not really it's not the company. It's what I'm doing,

and and I wanna do that. That looks like much more fun. And And the other thing is that kind of like, when I joined Lipson, there were probably 15 people there. And now there's, like, 40 or 50. And so we're like today, I went and we I saw the same question come through in support. And I was like, do we ever help, Like, you know, some sort of tutorial on this. And I'm like, oh, no. We don't. Hold on. And there it is. I didn't have to send this to a person who then approved

it, who went to the thing. And then it's like, it's nice to kind of be back in, like and really, when I joined Lipson, it was like a really super serious startup. I mean, we didn't even have an h an HR person at that point. And so it's kind of fun to be back in that, like, hey, if you wanna do it, here's the tools. Go ahead. So that's a little more fun. So again, it's

nothing wrong with Lipson. They're fine. And if you want advertising, they've got Lipson ads and all the other fun things they got going over there. Just for me, I said, it's like chocolate ice cream. Love chocolate ice cream. It it shows, you know, but I I really cookies and cream, I will stop every time. And Well, you you got the keys to the car now. And here's the best part. On the school of podcasting, you still can now start promoting Blueberry as a podcast host

and collect your affiliate money. Well, that's it. And one of the one of the first calls I got was from Brendan from PodPage. It's like, hey. Now that you don't work for Lipson, like, we can actually work together. And Blueberry is the one I had courses in at the school of podcasting. I've always had Lipson Blueberry, Buzzsprout, and Captivate. And when you guys changed your dashboard, I'm like, oh, all my tutorials are out of date. And then you kept adding so much

stuff. So now that you've kind of calmed down a little bit. Although every time I turn around, there's like, no. There's another this thing and That's right. You never did it built. So Yeah. But I gotta go back and redo my blueberry stuff because The good thing, everything's modular now. So it's just an additional thing. It's not like a whole gutting the, you know, so it's just, you know, little bits and pieces are being added here and

there. Well, I've learned that in the early days of the school of podcasting, I do, like, a 20 minute video and just go over every part of, like, PowerPress at the time. And then I learned, I'm like, let's have one video per tab. And that way, when they make that one change to that tab, I can update it in that whole

9 yards. And and, of course, now, of course, you still have PowerPress, but you've really updated your, your dashboard so that if you're not using PowerPress, you know, you can do all the fun stuff just as well. So Just let me know, Dave. I'll I'll matter of fact, I go into your account, and I'll give you the whole enchiladas. So that way, when you go in, you can Yeah. You can see everything. Yeah. So it's been a it's been a fun transition and this has been like the

tour of this. Like, I literally just got off a call that Podfest was putting on. And, you know, so we had the big announcement there. And then on the day before that what is today? Thursday? Wednesday? So Monday, we had a town hall with PodPage. So every time we turn around in the middle of the day, I'm just hopping on a webinar. So I'm having a blast. So been a lot of fun.

Oh, good. You know, I, you know, I understand the ability to have I call it mobility, you know, because in the early days, I would just do something now and it wasn't necessarily right. It probably needed a copywriter and, you know, a whole bunch of other stuff now. But with great tools like Grammarly and everything else is out there, I think even, you know, someone that isn't a and I'm not a proficient writer.

And by any means, those tools just makes it easier to be solo and not have to run through 3 layers of bureaucracy to get something done. And there's something to be said to that even in the past. Yeah. And for me, I always write something, save it as a draft, give it 24 hours, and then come back and, you know, there are things you can do. I learned in the past, you can actually read your article backwards and you'll catch spelling typos that way because you're losing the context.

So there's that. And like Todd said with Grammarly and all the other ones, you know, I usually catch everything. But I still I'll save it as a draft, Come back the next day with fresh eyes. And it's amazing. Sometimes you'd be like, what was I thinking in this sense? It doesn't even make any sense. So that's always fun.

Yeah. Dave, I think there is a aspect of what you built and what you've been doing in the podcasting space that is really, I think in the bigger picture, kind of kind of unique because you've been able to build the school of podcasting, which has put you in a position of being kind of, you know, a fair broker across all players in the industry, but yet you've been working for 1 company at the same time, which oftentimes puts any of us in a situation where we're primarily expected

to tow the company line. Right? And only talk about yes, what's great about the company I'm working for and the problem nowadays is that people, you know, people question that from the standpoint, are you a fair broker about trying to really help people make the right choices? And that's been something I've tried to do with my own career And it does put you in a difficult position with your employer at times. And I'm just curious what's your experience with that? I know that,

Yeah. Brent, you know, Brendan kind of mentioned that as well as a you've been able to, you know, talk honestly about Blueberry, talk honestly about Lipson, talk honestly about all these other platforms. At the same time, you've been able to maintain an employment type of relationship. I've always just done, because that's the one thing he said. You know, I've been a huge PodPage fan for years. And he goes, and now when

I say, oh, you should try PodPage. People are gonna go, oh, it's because you work there. And I'm like, well, look at the look at the past, you know, 80 episodes or whatever. But what I used to do with when I worked for Lipson, I'd be like, okay. Here's Libsyn's price and here are the features you get. Here's, Blueberry and here's the, you know, the thing. So if you're on WordPress back in the day, I'd say if you're on WordPress, this

makes it, like, super easy. Go check out Blueberry, and then here's Buzzsprout, and then here's Captivate, and here's what they all do. And depending on what the person wanted, especially if they wanted dynamic stuff, I'm like, okay. Well, Blueberry has a pre roll. You know, Buzzsprout has a p pre and post, and then they put in the minerals wherever they put them. And then Captivate lets you do all that, and you get to pick and go and Captivate's a

completely different business model, etcetera. And I would just say, here's what it is. Any questions on that? Then if they had questions, I'd answer. And if they pick Libsyn, great, I'll probably answer your ticket. And if not, okay, go ahead. You know, that's, you know, it's because in the end, it's I always say every podcaster starts with 2 things. 1, no audience, and 2, integrity. And the goal is to grow your audience without losing your integrity.

So if I said, oh, yeah. Go ahead and and sign up at Libsyn, and somebody had 4 shows. Well, there's, you know, depending on what if they wanted all the stats and that there's 2020, 2020, and then they find out that, wait, I could be on transistor or Captivate and only pay $20. They're gonna be mad at me. You know, like, why didn't you tell me about that? And I'm like, well, it's an app. You know, I just you know? So I was like, it's one of those things where

I've worked for a number of companies. I mean, I've I worked 10 years at the first company I had where I was doing a lot of training, and then I worked at a New Horizons computer center where I was doing more training. But in both those cases, for whatever reason, the music stopped, and we're we're really sorry, Dave. You're one of our best employees, but we gotta let you go. And so that kinda gives you a little PTSD a little bit. You're you always think, oh,

they'd never let me go. And my first job, the I was gonna leave, and the CEO came into my office. The CEO was like, I thought you were untouchable. Yada yada. Like, like, you're this is stupid. They're gonna just blah blah. And he was really mad at me. I'm like, okay. I'll stay. And then they let me go, like, 9 months later, and that's when I was like, okay. So it it wasn't that I was worried about being let off or let go from Libsyn. I've just always that's why

I still have the school of podcasting. I mean, if I get fired tomorrow from pod page, you know, I'll be eating a little ramen noodle because I work that job part time. So it makes a part time income, but it's always my cushion. So I've always just you know, there just comes a time when you're like, alright. How can I Be happy? Yeah. Like, this is gonna be happy. Well, I remember I mean, not, you know, my ex wife is a fine human being, but I it took me a while. I moved back to

Akron. I used to live in Cleveland with her. And this one night I sat down, and I was like, man, this is just weird. Like, what's going on? And I'm like, oh, I I remember this. I'm happy. Like, I wasn't dreading coming home. I wasn't kinda waiting for someone to yell at me. You know? And so and, again, I wasn't super unhappy at Libs, and it wasn't like I was dreading going to work. I just was like, oh, that sounds like the stuff I used to

do. Like I would do webinars for Libsyn, and I was like, oh, I would love to do these every day. This would be great. And I they did. I asked them. I said, can I do coaching? I pitched them, and they gave me one day a month. Well, it at PodPage, I'm doing 5 days a week. You know, there's a couple of times every day. So it's just I'm like, that's what I do. That's really, you know, and then today, I was on with someone, and I went

overlooked at their website. And here's a fun tip because I bet you're doing this one. If I Google your name podcast and it doesn't come up, I bet if I go to your about page, you wrote it in first person and never mentioned your name. I've done that before. And I went over and she was like, our co host, Susan, does in this and this, and I do this. And I go, you need to put I, parenthesis, your name. I said, because of if people are googling your name and it's not on your website,

that's not gonna show up. And she's like, that's a really good tip. And I go, I see it all the time. So Every day of the week. Yeah. So it's been fun. It's, you know, and I'll still be at all the events. The the thing I like about this is Brendan just gave me a budget. And he's like, okay, you go to the events you want where and again, nothing wrong with Lipson. They got a marketing department. They got all sorts of things going on, but I have to kind of go in and

say, alright. Here's where I wanna go. Here's how much it's gonna cost, and then they would say yay or nay. And if they said nay, I'd be like, fine. Then the school of podcasting is paying, and I'm still going. So it's gonna be kind of that with with PodPage as well. So You know you know, Dave, I think there's one thing that we have to recognize, and Tom made a comment in the chat channel and it

kinda triggered me a little bit. So he says, I am a big fan of Dave and what he has done for this space. He is generally someone I admire for his commitment to podcasters and the growth of space. He is a real star. And I I agree with Tom. You know? And, you know, we've all been friends in this space for many years. And I think in the end, what it boils down to, I think there is a core group of podcast personalities. You know, Rob, you bounced around a bunch

of places. You know, I've pretty much been in the same place from the beginning. But, Dave, you know, you're on, you know, you moved around a little bit. And but in the the core of who we are and the core of what we want for podcasters to achieve is the same. We want them to succeed. We want them to grow their shows. We want them to have good advice. And I I think there's a there's probably a small core of folks that beyond their businesses are really

concerned for the community as a whole. Now I might be wrong, but, you know, I just, you know, you've been a great person for helping, you know, you'll stop and talk to anybody, and I think we all will do that. But at the same time, I don't know if that's necessarily true for everyone that has come to the podcasting space later. I I might be a little harsh and being a little bit unfair, but I I just know what I know. I think you're in Todd. There's exceptions to that.

Right. But it's it's one thing to be, you know, a quote podcast consultant, but you also have to realize you're in podcasting. And if I see things that I'm like, wait a minute, this is gonna hurt the industry. And there are different bubbles. Like, there's the advertising people that are just killing it, and they got the CPMs going out through the windows. That's awesome. So when I see an app that comes out that, okay, it's paying the podcaster, kind of.

You know, it's the delivering a an ad free solution to the listener. Okay. That's a win. And let's see the advertiser who's paying to get their message into the ears of your audience get screwed. And I'm like, I believe that's called fraud. If you take money and say, I'm going to deliver your message to my audience's ears. And I was like, yeah. So when I see stuff like that, nothing against the guy. When I heard the conversation with him, he just sounds like a young kid that when I wonder if I

could do this, and he did. And I was like, yeah. But that's and I've seen stuff like that. I've seen the different anytime I shouldn't say anytime. There there may be times when you see these people that are like, hey. We have a service for you guaranteed, that's always a fun word, to grow your audience and blah blah blah. And then we send people to a website, you know, with our player. And I'm like, red flag right there. Hold on. You know? And it it just again,

I interviewed somebody. He didn't he was giving me a demo. And at the end, I said, hey. Can I play this for lips? And he's like, oh, please do. And I just felt like going, do you not know they own an advertising company? Because I said, what happens when you turn off the campaign? He goes, Oh, it's catastrophic. It's just Niagara Falls. And I was like, okay, that sounds sure smells like fraud. I don't know. It

could be that's too strong a word. So when I see things like that, you know, I stop myself every like, I had a guy today that spammed one of my students, and it started off with, hey there. And then it was like, you know, love your show, blah blah, you know, the generic thing. And I was like, man, I kinda like that guy, and you're doing that to people. And I would I stopped myself because I just wanna start a, I don't know, a website, like, call them out.com or something.

And just like, alright. Here's another one, and here's what they sent and hear what they said. But I'm like, well, I do enough of sharing my opinions and where it's not always wanted, but I was like, there are times I would just love to call people and now I'm like, don't use these people. They just I had somebody today pitched some sort of home repair expert to the school of podcasting. And they thought he'd be a great, you know, addition to bring value to my audience.

And I was so tempted to go, how the heck is this guy gonna deliver? You know, like, so those are the people I just wanna go out to the mountain and go. I I did once. I went to somebody, same thing. They pitched a real estate person to the school of podcasting, and I went to the the actual guest that they were promoting. So let's say, Todd hired somebody to, you know, go on, get me on podcasts. And I went back to Todd and said, hey, the person you hired just pitched you to me, and I am not a good

fit. So you might wanna think about, you know, getting a I agree. On him. Yeah. And I was like, you know, snitches get stitches kind of thing. But I was like, hey, if it was my money that I would spend. And so that those are the kind of things I would love to just blow the whistle on everyone, but I would do nothing but that then because there's so much of just the scraping emails. Like, I don't really do much on LinkedIn because every time I logged

into LinkedIn Oh. It's just pop up windows, and I am a Apple podcast promoter, blah blah blah. Do you have getting pitched. Right? Do you have a podcast? And that's where my ego wants to scream. Do you know who I am? You know, they don't actually, and they don't do any research. Yeah. And I was like, okay. So, yeah. So it's just that's what I try to do. I mean, because if we don't protect the podcasting space, well, then I got nothing to consult in. So I I always keep my eye on that.

And and that's why when you said Tom, was that Tom Webster? Yeah. Tom Webster. So I I love Tom Webster because he gets me he keeps me informed on that bubble because I'm not a, you know, 100,000 downloads kind of thing. He also says, yes, Dave. Thank you for saying that. That comment came in right around the time, you were talking about the the app that was removing the ads.

Yeah. So it's just we gotta watch out because, you know, some people could care less about advertisers, but there are a lot of pea you know, Jordan Harbinger cares about advertisers and Scott Johnson and a bunch of other people I know. So we gotta take care of those

people. At the same time, we're still looking for ways for that person who's getting a 1,000 downloads to you know, that that person may have to realize that, you know, maybe making a living on a 1,000 downloads might be a little harder than you think it is. You know? But Unless you're a neurosurgeon. Exactly. You know? And so I try to and and there's so many bubbles that I don't even know. Like, Todd, where did you go? You went to some it was in the Middle East.

Yeah. I went to Riyadh. Yeah. And you just learned, you know, Chris was telling me about the Philippines or all these little bubbles that are exploding that I have no clue about. I'm not up on that stuff, but I then that's where I, you know, lean on James Cridlin to keep you informed of what's going on because you never know. It's like from Guadalupe, blah, blah, blah, blah. I know. He's he's all over the place. Right. He's in some

airport. You're like, what? Yeah. You know, as much as he complains about not getting upgrades, he should have enough miles when he get upgrades based on how much flying he's doing. Yeah. I'm sure he does. Yeah. But Dave, I thought it was interesting, your relationship with podpage around podcast coaching and working with elite members. Why don't you tell us about that? Yeah. That's our top tier. So you have basic and

then pro then elite. And so what we're doing there is we're just having another webinar. And that might be because the Elite plan is where the SEO tools kick in. So we're gonna have some more kind of SEO related stuff and things of that nature for that kind of people. Because, again, there are some people are just doing it for fun. You know, they're talking about Batman in the basement, and they're not gonna go for that plan. They want for the the cheaper plan

or whatever. And so but those people that are doing a lead, they're these are people that, like, I wanna get some traffic to my website. I wanna do that. But we are still offering right now, we're offering coaching to just about anybody. Just, you know, see what the interest is and go from there. And it's a new thing, so we're kinda making it up as we go along. Eventually, there will be some sort of pod page podcast because, you know, our audience is podcasters. So Right. Go where

your audience is. So we still are trying to figure out what that's gonna be because if it's just PodPage updates, that's fine for our customers, but, you know, not so much for the general non PodPage customer yet. So we're trying to figure out what that is. But that's where, like any business, you're like, okay, what kind of podcast would my customers listen to? Let's make that and then we'll just be the sponsor of our own show. So would that be a 1 on 1 coaching relationship

or yeah. Because I noticed that you're also gonna be doing a monthly webinar, too. Yeah. So we do webinars, and then we do 1 on 1 coaching. And then, like, I had someone today you know, domains can be a little tricky. If you're new to anything, domains, and you're like, a c name of a what? And so I just sent this person a link. I said, here, let's schedule a quick time on Zoom.

And it actually, as much as you think, well, that's going to chew up 15 minutes of your time, I would have spent 15 minutes going back, going, no, click on this and then go to the edit menu, look for domains, and then they send back. I don't see it. Then you take a screenshot and then you send them a Loom video. It's like, hey, let's just jump on Zoom for 10 seconds. And let me walk you through this. Right? Yeah. And that was just Brendan's idea. He's like, I just wanna he

goes, we didn't have bad support. We just wanna take it to a next level. And I know Blueberry, you can call and schedule a time with Mike. So it's that kind of stuff where it's like we can't just have somebody, you know, jump into. We did today, but it was just one where it's like, hey, I'm available right now. If you got a second, click this link. The way I kinda refer to it is sometimes you just need to call a friend. Yeah. Well, the kinda what you are doing

with Dave. Right? Yeah. Well, the person I was talking to, she says, man, it's so good to have a Dave. Every company needs a Dave. And I was like, well, thank you for that. I appreciate it. So and the other thing that's to me, that just makes it a deeper connection is when you can see who your audience is. You know, you're like, oh, this is, you know, a woman that's probably about my age, and technology is

not her thing. But I'll tell you what, she was sharp cookie and you know, so don't let the gray hair fool you, people, where all these boomers are not as dumb as you think they are. And so I was like, oh, that's cool. And then like I said, she just said a couple of things. I'd spent 4 minutes looking at her website. I said, well, we got a little time before because it was only 15 minutes. So somebody look at your website for 2 seconds, and I saw that

her name wasn't on her about page. And she was like, oh, that's a really good tip. And I go, I think so. And so off she went. So to me, the fact that, a, she was like, wow. This is amazing that this company is offering this. B, I got her problem solved in 2 seconds instead of, you know, 2 hours. And I got a a little insight into who our customer is. And hey, speaking of Tom Webster, one of the things you got to be reading is the audience is listening because the whole key to this is knowing

who your audience is. And when you know who your audience is, you can deliver the best con the best content. And, you know, with PodPage, we're always trying to figure out, okay, what can we do better? What what can we a new feature, things like that. It's the same thing with a podcast. The thing that drives me I'm a little too logical at times. And so when I see somebody in a Facebook group going, how do I grow my audience? And I go, well, did you do any kind of,

you know, preview? Did you get any feedback from someone not named mom? And they either, a, don't answer because they know the answer is no. I didn't. Or if they do, it's like, well, my brother said it was good. And I was like, okay. But we got to figure out if it resonates because if, you know, feel if it was a restaurant and people would show up on your grand opening and then they never come back.

Okay. They look maybe somebody should check the food and see if it's any good, you know, and that it just I don't I mean, on one hand, I get it. We're just doing it for fun, man. I just wanna talk about, you know, that movie on Netflix. Okay. That's perfectly fine. But it's when that person turns around and goes, how do I get sponsors? I'm like, time out. That's when you gotta take this a little more seriously.

And it just seems like, you know, I offer that's a service I offer at the school of podcasting, and I'll go up to people. I'm like, hey, like, you got something for me to listen to? Oh, not yet. And I looked and they're like, they got 7 episodes out. I'm like, you know, wouldn't you wanna know? Like, if I've got broccoli in my teeth, I want somebody to go, you got broccoli in your teeth. And I'm like, oh, good to know.

Alright. Let me get that. As opposed to just keeping it out there and then going, why doesn't anybody want this? But that's just a that is something that will baffle me forever. I don't know. Do you see that, Todd or Rob, or people just don't seem to get feedback or want Well, I I think they they don't get feedback.

And sometimes they're not asking for feedback, but at the same time, you know, they're they're in especially when they're new, they're just trying to get battle rhythm down and figure out what they're doing and, you know, they don't have 20 years of publishing episodes to know, okay, this comes you have to do this and this. They're, you know, they're, you know, they're worried about, do I need to take the umms and ahs out of their editing? You know, it's there's a lot to comprehend.

There's a lot. And so people are not you know, that they knock the podcast out and they put it up and they, oh, I got the episode out. Woo hoo. And they don't really think it's hard because there's so many facets of this spacing. You know, it kinda ties into what Jim says. Jim said in the chase that, Todd, you are right. All 3 of your friends of podcast, the spirit is far too rare these days. Dave's needs to break out the back in my day voice.

And, Tom says, so good to have a Dave and to have a mic. These are the real ones. Yeah. And, you know, it's well known. We go to an events and people come up and, where's Mike? And, like, he's over there, you know, go talk to him. And so, you know, it's same thing with you. And people would come up to the Lipson booth, where's Dave or Rob? You know? And they would, you know Yeah. It's That's one thing I missed. I didn't even think about

it because it was always easy. I could say, hey, if you're coming to, you know, podcast movement, I'll be at the Lipson booth. Yeah. And now people are like, how are we gonna find you at these events? And I'm like, well, I guess hit me up on the app or whatever, but that I loaded the podcast movement app today, and I've already got, like, 40 literally, like, 44 people, like, can't wait. And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be

not as easy as I thought. Yeah. Have you guys I think PodPage was at Podfest for the booth. EVA's got a booth at Podcast Movement. We do not, but I'll be there spotting this lovely shirt and walking around. And that's the the thing that we're kind of, at this point figuring out, like, where is the best place to put your ad money? And, well, you know, it's like it's a couple $1,000 and you're like, okay, I'm gonna make that bucks $20 a month at a time.

You gotta get some ROI on that. So we're figuring that out, and it it may be a case we actually thought about it. I said, well, what if we go have these? Have a podpage slash school of podcasting booth? You know, that type of thing. So we'll see. We're still at this point, it's noon. We're like, alright. Didn't think about that. It's even us. We, you know, we dropped NAB this year. It's because, you know, after I get that $20,000

bill paid Oh. For, you know, booth, airfare, food, hotel rooms, everything else, then where's that ROI? And if the ROI doesn't mean 20,050 or 25,000 or 40,000 and we spend a week there, it's not worth our time to go. So we got I get it, you know, because I I I would never have these stones, shall we say, to hold an hold an event because you've gotta book all these hotel rooms. And then if people don't show up, you're out of you know? It's like, well,

you still gotta pay for those hotels. So I'm like I get hammered all the time by my board where where we get ROI. So there's some events we have to go to. Yeah. There's a you know, for us right now, there's 3 flagship events, and I essentially have to be at every year. Podfest, probably Podcast Movement Summer, and the pod show in London. Those are probably next year gonna be the only 3 shows I'm gonna do. Well, there aren't gonna be

that many left. Joe Pardo, I just saw, he used to do the indie pod con. And I saw where he originally this year, he had a date set. And now he's it's you know, I just last time I went through, he's like, yeah. We're not doing this this year. So It's hard to get people to these events and then, you know, for you guys have a a much easier sell. You know, hey. You know, this you're you're not competing with hosting because, you know Yeah.

Hosting is a commodity now. There's 30 people competing for hosting. And right now, there's only 1 or 2 PodPage. Matter of fact, I can't figure out who podpage.io is and podpage podpage.com. I think you're podpage.com. Yeah. We are podpage.com. The other one is pod I think it's podcast page something, whatever. But yeah. But yeah. So that's But you guys have a very small competition pool. So you guys are in a great spot. Yeah. And it's I I've known, Brandon, it's

kinda weird. It went we went through this weird podcasters round table with me, Ray, and Daniel because I My first meeting with Brendan, we figured it out, was on April 30, 2020. And the guy that told him you should talk to Dave was Ray Ortega. And after he talked to me, he talked to Daniel j Lewis. And I'm like, there you go. The 3 Amigos. And I've known him ever since. And he would I remember I'm like, well, we need an about page. We need a contact page. We need an easy way to get the

episodes on there. And he was like like this. And I was like, yeah. That's exactly it. He's like, okay. Well, what else do you needed to do? And I was like, he built pod page. Like, I advise people to make a podcast, figure out who your audience is, ask them, what do you want it to do? What do you need from the show? And then give it to them. Like with this show, I mean, with you guys, with the huge experience you both have and the insights and, you know, Rob's rolodex and and

Todd's experience with blueberry customers. You guys give us a wide view of what's going on, and I always listen because well, I listen for 2 things. My favorite thing to hear on the show is when Todd goes, you know, I probably shouldn't say this because I'm

like, oh, this is gonna be awesome. And and then the other the other thing is just your insights because you guys, you know, we've seen what when we had, you know, back in the day when I see somebody go, oh, I made this thing and it's, you know, it's going to take little snippets of this and blow. I'm like, oh, like clamor. And they're like, what's a clamor? And I'm like, do your research. You just made something that could never make any

money. It had integrate I think it integrated with PowerPress at one point and AMMR because, you know, these are expensive. And, you know, we I just so when I see another clamor come up on board, I'm like, yep. Okay. You've seen that before. Right. Yeah. What's the there's a new media host, and he's got every 2.0 feature. And, I forget what it is, but it's 1 guy in the basement. And his business model is unlimited bandwidth, unlimited episodes, unlimited everything.

And I went, that's a bad business model, my friend. And he's like, what? And I go, I've seen that happen twice. I go, all it takes is one really popular show, and you're done. And he was like, no. Bandwidth is cheap. And I'm like, I've heard this before. And then he was on the podcasting 2 point o show. And Adam Curry is like, that's not a good business model. Like, we've seen that before. So and then, of course, you know, when I say stuff like that, you know, they politely walk away and go,

it's just an old curmudgeon. And I'm like, yeah, there we go. The curmudgeon card gets pulled. And I'm like, I've seen things. And then when I have a customer that I've, you know, had to unfortunately say, listen. You went commercial. You know, you're using a petabyte of bandwidth. We need you you're you have to move to a business plan. And then they say, well, you know, you give them that number and they have some sticker shock, and you've, you know, you've discounted as low as you

can go. And then they go start looking around for a new home, and maybe they find a new home for a short period of time. But it what I've often found is people that, you know, have and they're get they're doing. If a show is on Blueberry and still the rule is if you're not running advertising, you're a noncommercial show and you're using 5 petabytes, well, that's on me.

Alright? I'm gonna eat it. But if you start running ads in your show, then, okay, you're making money on that audience, so I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go and I have very rarely have to do that, but oftentimes we'll find people will move. And where do they look for? They look for those free hosts, those people that have unlimited bandwidth, that have little bit looser terms of service, and they go over there and kill them. And it's not my fault. It's because I said you need to pay me $1500

a month. Yeah. People used to say with Libsyn, oh, they don't let you advertise because there was something in the terms, And it was simply for that situation. If you're killing us, we at least want the ability to go, would you mind playing some ads for us? And people used to spew that, but it was like, there there comes a time when it's like, okay. Let's be fair here. They're killing us. Like, either help us make some money or, you know, pay us some money.

1 of the one or the other. And, you know, at that point, if you are have so many downloads that you're, you know, you should be able to monetize that. Right. I'm pretty sure. So I wanted to take everybody back. Jody Cragle made a comment in here. It takes time to get a podcast process down. So this is the whole topic we were talking about earlier about, you know, starting a podcast. And it takes time for some people to

figure this out. And I know it's kind of a controversial place out there to say, well, you know, some people say that you should produce, you know, like 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 episodes at the beginning when you launch. And then there's other people like myself that says, you know, just start out with 1 because you're not going to have your process figured out for

6 episodes really in advance. And I mean, you may find that you don't use all those episodes, but to kind of dovetail off of what Dave was saying about, you know, knowing your audience, you know, just like Jody saying here is that sometimes it takes quite a few episodes to find your, your groove, find what you're trying to accomplish with your podcast. And at what point is it the best point to to really start getting that feedback to as it at episode 1 or is it

episode 3? I mean, I guess it's going to vary, right? It depends on what kind of show you're trying to produce, too. But this is a very complicated question for people to solve out there. And I'm not sure that there's really one answer to this. Yeah, it's a podcast. So of course, the answer starts with it depends. But anytime, it's either a, I'm gonna start buying ads for my show. Well, hold on. Let's make sure it's gonna resonate, or I'm gonna start promoting it on other shows. I'm

gonna do, like, okay. That's a great strategy because both are gonna get you in front of podcast listeners. But before we go promoting it, maybe we should take some time to do that because she's right. It does take a while to to kinda get comfortable behind the mic. But if we know who it's for, and then the other key is why am I doing this? And I had someone at the school of podcasting, and she's just a sweetheart.

And we're going through, and I'm looking through her her why and her why was well, I wanna position myself as a, you know, a subject matter expert. And I'm like, perfect. I go, but I looked at your last, like, 10 episodes and you're doing interviews. I go, how does that position you as a subject matter expert? Right. I go I said, now that doesn't mean you shouldn't do interviews. I said, but you gotta do I call it the Jerry Springer.

So if you guys remember Jerry Springer, people would be hitting each other with chairs and beating each other up. And at the end, there'd be some soft music, and Jerry look into the camera and go, what did we learn today? You know? And it'd be like, I learned that getting hit in the face with a chair leaves a bruise. You know? And I'm always like, so after you talk to someone, at the end of that, go well. You know what I liked about that talk today

with, Rob? You know, that one part where he said this, that reminds me of it. Now you tell your story, and you just ever so kind of nonchalantly remind the audience, it's my show. You know, it's like, don't forget I'm the expert here because a lot of times they'll go, hey, don't forget new media show dot com. Be sure everything's in the show notes. Newmediashow.com. Thanks. You see you. Bye. And I'm like, wait a minute. The last website they heard

was theirs. The last thing the audience should hear is your website. So there are things like that that I'm like, yeah. You just and it's not that person is dumb or, you know, it's just like they don't I'm too close to the content to see that. I I'm so happy. It happened to me about probably 5 months ago. A student of mine, Kim Newlove, does the Pharmacist's Voice podcast, and she said, Dave, do you know you have a typo in your podcast? And I go, well, which one? And she goes, well,

the school of podcast. And I'm like, woah, is it in like a show notes or something? She goes, no, it's in the podcast. I go, like, she goes, the title of the show. And I go, no. And I go over plan, launch, grow, monetize, and I'd left out an e. And I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. So I just tell people we're all too close to our own content. And when you get somebody else from the outside to go, I don't understand what that means. It's,

it's helpful. But it is I guess that would be your my answer is when you're ready to promote it before you go wasting your time and money, let's make sure it works. I I have a little different approach, but I do agree in one thing. What is the goal? What is the goal of the show? That's my first question when I get on with any podcaster now. Right. Be before they even I what is your question? I asked them, what is the goal of

your podcast? And, you know, often we get that big long pause, and I just keep my mouth shut, you know, being the good salesman that I am and wait for them to answer that question. But in these podcast gurus that say you need to do 7 episodes in advance and blah blah blah blah blah blah, I think the reason that a lot of shows fail is because they don't have time to breathe. In other words, let's do episode 1. Let's get it out. Let's breathe 3 or 4 days.

Mhmm. Let's start planning on episode 2. We've learned some things. We've had some time to look at what the show's doing, what the response is. I've learned maybe to do some new social media post and, you know, let's get episode 2, and then let's kinda rinse, wash, repeat, and add some stuff. And by episode 6 or 7, you've learned more over a couple of months of time. You have built more confidence. You're getting a

little feedback for the show. And by episode 7, you can start to do the you know, you can start to do the your adjustments to the content. If you just record so many episodes in the beginning and you put it out there, then you haven't had a chance to grow through the process of putting a show out on a episode by episode basis on a week by week and able to have the ability to do a little bit of an adjustment.

So I'm a very I'm a I'm very much against doing this preloading of a whole bunch of episodes, but, boy, you listen to a lot of gurus, and that's exactly what they tell you to do. And if they have a plan to go along with that launch, in other words, all that stuff that they would have learned over 2 months and condition that podcaster to be ready to do those 7 episodes at a huge dump, then that's great, but most of them don't.

Then I would say it also depends on what the experience of the podcaster is too. Had have they done this before? Have they been through this process before and learned that it's probably not best to batch up a bunch of episodes because that basically means that maybe you made, you know, if you batched up 6 episodes in advance of your launch that you made 6 episode mistakes, you come across a situation where you regret publishing those. And that's that's

a that's an unfortunate outcome as well. Tom has a series of comments. He says, I wouldn't do NAB this year. Well, it's already done and gone, so don't worry. We didn't. Dave nails the show, so maybe I shouldn't talk about what I wanna talk about. Hit me with a chair and also said he says, Todd, you're right. But those first episodes should be placed under the bed first. That's interesting too. Yeah. Yeah. I I had a guy once that came to me. He's like, I'm already done. I got the episode.

I'm I just need to launch and promote. I'm like, great. And he had 52 episodes that had been exported as WMA files for those of you that are on Windows and remember, like, 19, whatever it was. And I was like, dude, these, like, these are not gonna play in anything. I go, you have to convert these to MP 3 files or m 4 a at least. I go, but WMA. I'm like, you know, And he's like, really? I'm like and so we were looking for some tool that you could, like, drop in a folder and it

would somehow reconvert it. But it was just somebody that started. I don't know where he got that advice, but that was wrong. And and to Rob's point, if you do 10 episodes and 3 episodes in, somebody goes, man, I hate that lightning round thing you do that. Every time that lightning sound effect comes in, it makes me wet my pants. And you're like, you know, in your head, you're thinking I have 7 more episodes with a lightning round in it. Like,

oops. So that's why I might get some feedback upfront. And that doesn't always mean you have to, you know, there are times that you'll get feedback from people that aren't your target audience. I do a Saturday show called ask the podcast coach with Jim Collison, and this guy had done his homework. He's, like, back in February on episode, you know, whatever. You did this and you talked about this and, like, all these majorly detailed points, and he really wanted us to turn it into an interview

show. And I was just, k. Thank you so much for the feedback. It's called ask the podcast coach. It's kind of a call in show. I'm like, this is not, you know, the actor studio or whatever. So there are times when somebody will give you feedback, and we have a name for that person, and it's not you know, it's that person is not my target audience. So you have to be careful with that. Because if you try to if you try to please everybody, I see people do that

all the time too. Well, I'm gonna do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I'm like, yeah, that's not the best advice. You know, that's been a a challenge with Blueberry, you know, because, you know, we've been a jack of all trades. We have a power press plugin for WordPress users. Now we have this dashboard, and people get in there and go,

which way do I go? You know? So we've had to really work hard at that onboarding process to not get people stuck and get decision paralysis on because sometimes it's, you know, those very simple, okay, 2 or 3 real questions, and we kinda lead them down the path and get them in the bucket we think they should be in. But, you know, that's where Libsyn, Podbean, and other folks don't have that problem

because they're a one trick pony. They have one product and one dashboard, and they you know, there's not multiple ways of publishing. So yeah. So that's always been a challenge with us. Todd, that's a great segue to moving this conversation over to podcast websites, which is what was promoted for this episode is that decision making process that a podcaster goes through to decide what, you know, what kind of website that they want to have.

There's pod page. There's WordPress. There's the website that's provided by Libsyn or any of the hosting platforms that are very limited or whatever. So, you know, selecting these various options comes with a certain amount of work. Some come with more work than others.

But, you know, I know what the really, the bottom line to this whole discussion is the only the the real purpose that you have a website is for SEO, right, for getting found in the search engines and being a destination for your podcast that you can promote easily in your podcast. So, so Dave, why don't you start out a little bit and talk about, you know, what it is about pod page, do you think? And just from your experience, you know, working at Lipson, you know, I

worked at Lipson too. And what you get from a host website versus what you get a pod page. And then, Todd, let's also talk about what you get through a PowerPress and how that works with WordPress. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. With any and it doesn't matter if it's Captivate or, you know, Libsyn or whoever. Your basic came with the web host is a great place. It's super simple. It's a great place to listen Mhmm. And follow the show. Mhmm. That's about it. And then and sometimes that's all you need.

PodPage, we bring in your RSS feed. We bring over all your episodes, and you put in your links to here's Apple and Spotify and all that. So we've got the follow thing, but we also integrate with your email list. So now I wanna do a little marketing. I wanna catch up with those people, and it just looks better. There are some media hosts that are just like, okay. Yeah. It looks better. A lot more customizable than something that comes with the media host. So we've got the email. We integrate with

things like Patreon and Supercast. So if you wanna promote that and PayPal and buy me a coffee and all that. So there's a lot of integrations with PlaidPage so that you can kinda add whatever you want. Now if you start going, I wanna do a b split testing with some marketing and somebody that's like, okay. Now you've graduated to WordPress. So but the biggest thing I remember, Christian is a member of the school of podcasting, and she said, hey, I hear about this

pod page thing. Can you walk me through it? And I'm like, sure. We put her RSS feed. She picked up template. We picked her colors, couple other things, and we were done in, like, 12 minutes. And she goes, I didn't think I could do this. And I go, yeah. Yeah. It's it. I when I say it's easy, it's really that easy. And so and then from there, you just simply upload your file to your media host, type in your show notes, and there you go.

And then, like, I'll do this. I will have kind of condensed show notes because who's gonna read War and Peace on the phone. So I'll have my opening paragraph and my links and my call to action. And then once that gets sucked in the PodPage, I'll go in and add more paragraphs because now in the land of Google, and I wanna get my SEO going. And then there are other fun features like PodPage has we call it the, episode signature, and it just adds at the end of

every episode on your website. You can put a banner in there, whatever you want. And when you update that signature, it updates across the whole website. And then things like there's a slash follow link, so that's already built in. There's a slash voice mail link. So if you wanna leave voice mail so all these are based on your domain. So if you're like, hey, if you wanna leave me a comment, just go to ask the podcast coach.com/voice

mail. And And if you wanna follow the show, ask the podcast coach.com/follow. So a lot of those things that, you know, people have to set up with either a pretty link or, you know, whatever you're using. A lot of that is now built in. But there is a time when you wanna do some sort of split test or whatever, you know, just super duper customization, and that's where you move over to WordPress. And with that, I will toss it over to Todd.

Yeah. So I have up on the screen a screenshot of the pod page experience off of a podcast that I have just to give, you know, somebody a little visual on this. So, and I think, yeah, Todd, go ahead. I think what we see is if we look at how people find us is about 90% of the folks that come to us that are there are they've had WordPress forever. They've already had a website. They've already have established business,

something that they've been doing for years. So they've decided to add a podcast to their business or their church or whatever it may be. They've added PowerPress, and they kinda come in that way. So about 90% of the folks that come to us initially have already got an established website. And then 10% of the folks that are onboarded through our platform then make the the decision whether or not they just wanna have a landing page or if they wanna have the WordPress site that we provide.

So that kind of splits then. And but, again, it's not like the majority of people that come to us, again, are already WordPress users. It's not someone who's come to us and decide, oh, I'm gonna put up a WordPress site. Most people don't. You know, people that's coming in brand new, they don't have any presence whatsoever. They often just opt for a landing page because it's simple. It's easy. You just set up your account, you know, really your you do your onboarding, you're ready to create your

episode, you're done. You know, submit your podcast to Apple Podcasts. You're really that that easy. And then over time, what will happen is it's the same thing that happens to people that are on platforms like Spotify and other places like that that are basically limited in their they decide that they wanna graduate. So there's a huge percentage of folks that are coming over to use specifically WordPress that have been kinda stuck on a a template, let's just say, and they wanna

have more control. So very few people that have no website whatsoever opt for WordPress out of the gate because it's a big step to do that. And people get intimidated real easy, but then again, what we see is this graduation process.

So that's where, you know, today, we spend a lot of time have been spending a lot of time on improving the dashboard and the dashboard experience because we know that's where, you know, a lot of the folks that are getting their first exposure to having any kind of website are gonna land, and then we'll work them through the process of graduating into something that they can control and have their own domain

on and have that domain authority. So I can understand where Dave's and I would also say if I was hadn't found Blueberry, you know, it would be one of those situations where if you're on a platform that has a limited dashboard website, you can become frustrated with that very quickly. And let's be frank, all of the hosting platforms, including us, could do a lot better job with the sites we give podcasters straight out of the gate.

If we did that, PodPage would not be doing as well as they did, but we don't. So that's a weakness, and that's something that PodPage has been able to to exploit. And, good on them for doing that. Yeah. On that topic here, I wanted to show what a provided website is from a host. So ellipse and more specifically here on this case, just so those watching this can see. Yeah. So this is a web page that's provided by

by Lipson to a podcast. So That's, you know, that's really nothing to get excited about. No. And, again, that's a great place to, you know, follow the show. Normally, here's the fun thing. You have to go into Libsyn 4 to put in the link for your Apple. So that'll show up on that page. But it's a great place to listen and follow. So that's a a great example, and you can change the color scheme there. You know, so it looks okay and it's fine if this is, you know, all I want people to do is listen

and follow. But if you wanted to put an email list on that, you'd have to either put a link in your top description there that you can customize and things like that. So it's not a bad side. It's just it's easy to outgrow. Yeah. And to exactly my point, if you went over and looked at a blueberry page, it would be, you know, not it it would not, be as enthralling as a pod page site. So Well, the other thing that Robbie said, why do we have a website for SEO? But

I think I'm with Todd. I'm a little worried about the AI answers coming up in Google and all these other places to where if there's only one answer and it's not you, how do you tell your audience where to find you? Because they're not gonna find you via search engine. And so I'm like, you can't say find me wherever you find podcasts. I've got multiple videos on how that just doesn't work. There are search and certain apps. There was one I typed in the exact name of the show, and it didn't show

up. And there were all sorts of things. It was like home pro something, home fixer pro or something. Nothing there. You had to type the author's name to to have it show up. And there are all sorts of things that were neither pro nor home that were showing up in the search results. So to me, you need a website or bare minimum a domain that points at something to get people there because I'm not super worried about the AI results in SEO, but there's a part of me that goes,

that okay. I'm watching that because I've seen some really bad results come from that, and I don't wanna have just 3 results. I'm a not a control freak, but I'll I'm a guy that will go to page 2 of Google results to see what else is there because, a, the first 70% of Google results are now paid for. And so to me, you need a website just so people can find you. Again, going back to being an old curmudgeon, I remember mp3.com.

And I remember when that site was huge, and there were people making a living selling their music on mp3.com to where they just say, hey. Go to mp3.com/dave. And then it got sued and sold and

sued and sold. And then all of a sudden, all those people had the audience just knew to go to mp3.com/dave, and they had no way to find these people because this is the early days of the Internet where if that person had a website and an email list, you can take down mp3.com, and I can still talk to my audience. Oh, I don't know why that particular page is showing. Oh, yeah. I brought it up. It's a chat query that I pulled up. I was gonna share a screen. Sorry.

Oh, yeah. So I talked into the query top podcast about podcasting just to see, you know, if a person went in and did a search query, what you would do in Google, what chat GPT would show us. So here I'll click on it. It says top. Oh, look at that. Wow. How did you make that happen? Come on the podcast report. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. But the, I mean, look, we love Paul Colgan, but he hasn't had an episode of the podcast report out in about 3 years. And then

Podcraft. Podcasting. Yeah. I'll take that. Colin, that's good. She podcasts. Great show, but, we don't know if that's coming back. Yeah. Evotera. Yep. Can't go wrong with it. But again, Evo hasn't put out an episode. He's doing, his book stuff now. But the problem with this is that there's no links to any of that. There's no links to any of that. Yep. That's the key takeaway here. Now, if you were to do this in Bing, I think you would get links. Yeah.

Yeah. I switched to Bing. The results, it's weird because I started using Google because I hated using hot bot and Lycos and Dogpile and all the other You had these meta search engines that would be a search of search engines. And so Google came along, and it was fast, and the results were great. And now I'm going to Bing because the fast the search results are better. And, you know, so what is this? I had to ask it to provide links, and it did.

So, Rob, bring up the screen that I shared and see if we get the right one. You know, what we did is because so many podcasters were, you know, they were hot heavy on sharing, like, a Linktree page or something like that. Right. We we basically put something together that was similar to a Link Tree page, but

was more podcast centric. So this is something we put together that all our podcasts are it's called a quick links page and it's the landing pages end up being podcast.showforward/yourkeywords. So, again, they're you know, it's one of those things that that a podcaster gets to you know, again, we're just trying to help folks that don't have any web skills of having something that looks a little nicer. You know, again, it's just kind of a landing page. You can play your podcast there,

latest episode and so forth. But I think that it's again, it's an education process with podcasts. You can bring it down, Rob. Okay. But And you got that subscribe button in the upper right hand corner, so that's good. So it and it's mobile ready and everything else. But I I think too, in the end, it goes back to, you know, with PodPage, at least you can have your domain mapped over there. Yep. And, you know, that's a biggie, and that's, you know, that's

90% of it. It's, again, building your brand on your dotcom in a place you got place that you can point people to within your show. Because it's really hard for people to say, okay. Go to blueberry.comforward/blahblah, or go to podcast.showforward/blahblah when you can say and if you can score a domain, it's much, much easier just to give them a straight domain, something easier to remember.

And, again, then you can focus the content on the website to write for Google because your podcast listeners are not gonna come over there unless they wanna sign up for GetMerch or sign up for your email list or, you know, they're gonna be very rare to come to the website. But in a pinch, they're gonna remember, oh, yeah. The new media shows at newmedia show dot com, Geekton Essentials at Geekton Essential, the School of Podcasting, the School of Podcasting

dot com. They're gonna remember those website domains and they're gonna come find Dave or Todd or Rob or whatever it may be. Mhmm. Yeah. But it's one of those things with SEO. The more you do, the more you get. And I've seen people that and they don't know it. It's not. And they'll take, I know Blueberry has I think every media has this where you can have a player with multiple episodes. Yeah. And so they'll do it,

and they'll set it and forget it. And they don't realize that iframe isn't technically like, it's on their site, but it and it looks like it's on their site. But really, you're you're getting 0 SEO from that. And I'm always like, treat every episode like a blog post. So, you know, just, you know, start a post in WordPress if that's what you're using or whatever. Copy and paste the code for the player, you know, 10 seconds later, you're done. And that's

people, like, wait, what? And I'm like, yeah. And then I put this, I don't have to do anything. And I'm like, yeah. And you're getting 0 for that. We had been heavily resistant in providing a persistent playlist. But finally, the demand got so high because people say, I just wanna have a page on my website where the latest episode is just there, and then just I'm you know, you're just like,

okay. You've got your own dotcom already, and you're just gonna have one persistent page with a playlist player there. That is not helping you, like you said. And you can lead a sheep to water, but you can't force or horse to water and you can't make them drink. So all you can do is advise, and it it doesn't become critical until they call you and say, my show's not growing. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, well, let's, you know, let's have the ugly baby talk.

So, guys, do we think that as we see the AI platforms kind of kind of get greater adoption and usage versus, like, maybe Google search, do we see links being a part of that? Or do we see or do you guys see the web starting to be depreciated over time and that the chat GPT becomes much more kind of, you know, much more multi modal, which would be multimedia already happening, Right. So it starts to generate results that have video and have audio embedded in them.

So what do you guys think? I well, Bing has already switched now so that the AI results are first and the search results are in a sidebar. So that's for select users. They're starting to roll that out. If you use Bing, you're gonna type, you know, you know, what is the best tech podcast, and it's gonna give you its AI answer, then it's gonna give you the search results on the on the sidebar. So it's already happening. It's a doomsday scenario, not just for podcasters, but also businesses.

This is really gonna be a very tumultuous time, you know, where businesses were built on the web. They may destroy businesses on the web. Yeah. The thing that this keeps going through my head every time, and I sound very anti AI and and I'm not. There's some things that AI does that I'm like, that's amazing. I just don't think creating content is one of them. Mhmm. And I see it all the time where it's like, upload your video and it will create 100 snippets for you. And I'm like,

yeah. But it is it any good? You know? Oh, I just ask it a question and it'll spit out this thing. Okay. But is it any good? And it's not that it's bad. I have yet to see something where I go, wow. Didn't know that. It always seems very surface, you know. Chat gpt, how do I lose weight? Oh, the studies have found if you eat less and exercise more, your weight and pounds will fall off. And I'm like,

okay, but I knew that. It always seems very high level, nothing super detailed, or, like, we just saw it, recommended 2 podcasts there that aren't podcasting anymore. And I'm like, I kinda wanted you know, we you really have to put your trust in it. And so I know I've used a lot of AI tools, and I did I'll give you an example.

Last week, I talked about Bon Jovi and Taylor Swift on a podcast because both of them know exactly who their audience is, and they write music to make young girls cry, basically. And yet I ran it through a couple different things. None of them I I said, I want my episode title to be something like 4 podcast lessons from Bon Jovi. Just enough that people go from Bon Jovi? What? Gotta click on that. And none of the AI tools even mentioned to Bon Jovi. And I'm like, we talked about him for 12

minutes at the beginning of the show. And then when they make my I'm like, here, make my chapters. And I'm gonna I guess I'm gonna have to start saying, I'm changing topics now so that AI knows I'm changing. Dave, Come on over and, and we'll get your account set up. Come over. That's it. Well, that's what I wanna see because I and and really for the to be fair, ask the podcast coach is an AI nightmare. Because by the time that show is over, we go where the audience wants to go.

So it's 90 minutes of us talking about everything. It's this show kind of. It has a hard time with this show too. Yeah. So that's not really fair to bash that. But I have done other like, oh, this should be really easy for AI. And I go, yeah, it did it, but I'm like, is it any good? I'm like, so It's like when I create the chapters files for this show, it gives me me, like, 6 or 7. And I you know, it's it goes back to this adage I've used forever. AI is not a replacement for common sense.

You need to look at the output. Right? Now as in regards to my tech show, where I'm changing a topic, a different news story, oh, it's beautiful. It comes up with 30 chapters perfectly timed. There might be a few weirdos in there. I just delete those. So, again, it's really about the context of a show. So if a show is very well structured, in other words, it spends time on a topic, switches topic, the AI has no problem breaking out those chapters. But, like, this show,

yeah, good luck. It's gonna have a it's gonna be like, well, they talked about this, and they came back to this, and they talked about this again. And so, yeah, it's gonna have a hard time on it. Thankfully, we're using the stupidest AI or large language model that we've that we'll ever use at this point. But some tools do better than others, and this is what we found. I worked for 2 months trying to get the model we're using to build a to do clip creation. They'd say, okay. Here are

the here's the real highlight. Here's the juicy stuff from a show that we want to be able to create clips from, and that it was just failing left and right. So we switched models and it got better. But then I said, okay. Instead of trying to give me 10 clips, just find me 3, and then we'll let the podcaster go find other clips. It could find 3. It couldn't find 10. So That's telling. Perfect. It's not perfect. Well, I don't think that's the AI. Well, Megan,

here here are the 3 budget. Yeah. Here are the here are the 3 good things we found out of an hour long show, Mike. Well yeah, if the shoe fits. Yeah. Well, and that actually raises a really good point because I do think that these platforms, you know, Youtube included, just like what I've had to do with this show to some degree is pick out one main topic, right, that is highlighted to help promote the show to drive people's

interests. Right. And, but what people will find when they come to the show is that we don't talk about that topic until like 50 minutes in. Right? It's gorgeous board and stuff, right? It's just a bunch of other stuff that gets thrown in there because these discovery platforms don't really give us the ability to really promote multiple topic formats. So the what I've done with my tech show is I lead with the story I think is gonna be the juiciest for the episode title.

And then my header for the show is that juicy episode or juicy topic. And then the other 29 things I talk about is buried, but the difference is I try to cover the juicy topic within the first three minutes of the show so that people don't have to wait too long to get to it if they came there for that specific topic. But, you know, podcasts are a different animal. We don't create well, some podcasters do create very short YouTubish type of content where it's very show very

focused. That's where probably YouTube has an advantage is these very tight focused topics to people, How to, you know, how to change a tire on a car or whatever it may be. That's why they win in that regard because you got a 3 minutes video on how to change a tire safely, where you don't do a podcast on how to change a tire safely in 3 minutes. So Well, that different animal. But there are podcasts or Youtube shows essentially that will take a focused topic and they'll spend 2 hours on it.

Right? So it's the ultimate and deep dive. So, you know, I mean, obviously they'll stray into other derivative topics as well, but there are examples of long form singular focus topic, shows that are successful on YouTube. And I'm not sure that as is much the case in podcasting. It's just an interesting contrast that's going on that side. So I wanted to just kind of change the topic a little bit here and talk a little bit about true fans.

I don't know if you guys got the email about True Fans turning on Stripe and being able to pay with credit card, to to people. I don't know if you guys have heard about that or if you have an opinion on that. But You're obviously not listening to the the Podcasting 2 point o show, Rob. Oh, okay. Fair enough. So it's experimental.

Well, what basically he he has done is he's pushing ahead, but there over the last 2 weeks, there's been major headway done in because what happened is GetAlBI doesn't want to the wallet business in America today is strife with the legal implications because of the Fed. Sure. And money laundering and this other stuff. So non custodial wallets and custodial wallets, we don't need to go on that discussion. It's just basically has made Kiddeau be more challenging to use as a from a

podcaster and listener standpoint. So what's gonna happen and what Sam has really introduced there is and what everyone will go to here probably the next month and a half if they once logistics gets figured out is a much more simpler transaction method that basically you pay on with fiat funds as with a Stripe account or maybe even Cash App or but it all depends, but mostly probably Stripe or Stripe. Mhmm.

You know, you put $10 in, and you send some some dollars to a podcaster and it arrives in SATs to the podcaster. And the SATs easily transfer out of the podcaster into fiat funds. So that's the I mean, like, the 10,000 foot view, it's much more complicated than that. But they're working you know, Sam just is rushing forward as fast as he can to get stuff implemented, and I applaud him

on it. But I'm gonna wait till the spec gets finalized, and they make sure they got all the i's dotted and t's crossed to be able to implement it so that we can make it easier for podcasters and listeners to participate in the a portion of the price value. Let's get this straight on what's happening here. So he's enabled the ability to use Stripe, Apple, and Google Pay or credit cards to be able to fund the purchase of Satoshis through the True Fans website's

relationship with Albie, right? Is that working? I, I w when I do it, I go over and because I've used Stripe before, it somehow knows my credit card, which is cool and sometimes, like Gary at the same time? Yeah. But it knows me. And it's like, do you wanna buy $10 worth of US dollars of satoshis? And I go, yep. And he goes, okay. Bring. Here it is. And at that point, and also Stripe will actually give you the ability right in their interface to purchase,

Satoshis. And at that point, I go into True Fans and I can see where however many thousands of Satoshis that bought and I'm like, cool. And even if I'm not using True Fans, if I have a, you know, get Albi Wallet, so if I'm listening in Cast O Matic, I put the money in via Sam. So I'm assuming Sam takes a cut of that. He should. And then I just start streaming them to everybody else. And so what what I've kind of heard is more people need

to do that. Because if we have just one person being the wallet company, then there's so much money going through that wallet that it might, you know, raise the eyebrow of the government to, like, hey, what's going on over there? But if every hosting company or, you know, podcast company or whoever took a share of that, then it's not going to be hopefully Well. Well, it could be flagged. What's ultimately gonna happen is we're gonna be completely legal.

And, again, what Sam has done, I'm not gonna do wallets, but there is there might be a master wallet that we would have, but there would be essentially bookmarks in there. Now you'd have to trust Blueberry. There's gonna be bookmarks in there that says, okay, Dave has x number of Satoshis and, you know so, again, I don't know the full logistics of it. I might be talking out of my ass here on exactly how it's gonna work. But, again, I'm gonna let the podcasting 2.0

gurus figure it out. Write the spec. Give us the instructions. Show us the demo. The fountain folks are working on, the the use case, and give us a demo site. And once that's all figured out, then we will proceed. But I'm not gonna, change horses in the middle of stream until there is something where there is basically we've proven the end chain works. And instead of streaming by the minute, probably what it's gonna be, it's gonna be cash.

So in other words, the Yeah. Fountain is probably going to do a transaction, you know, every 5 or 10 minutes and send 10 minutes worth of streaming sets because this new method that they're gonna go to is what's the word I wanna use? It's not lightweight. I can send in the current model, I can send 10 sets a minute, and it's not an issue. But there's a little more overhead. I guess that's a better way to say it in sending, payments. Not in a cost perspective, but just

an overhead in the process that's required. But at the same time, it's easier and there's some terms being used about some 11 series and some again, it's Yeah. Super geeky stuff, but we're gonna let Adam and Dave and the gang figure out the way ahead, then we're gonna move forward. So if you purchase satoshis through Stripe, that's gonna be held in inside of your Stripe account. So there's gonna have to be some way to be able to migrate that into, let's say a true friends or Well, back up

a bit. When I, when I give my money through Stripe, I'm buying Satoshis that are stored in my Get Albi Wallet. So it's that's where the money goes. And what Sam has done is because you can't k. But you already had a get Alby account. Right. And so US citizen now you can't get a right. But that's where Right. Yeah. So Sam is now like, hey. I'll make you a wallet. If you can't get one over there and then somehow that wallet ties into Getalby. So he's Getalby is like,

we don't want that. And Sam's kinda like, well, hold on. I'll be between you and everybody else's It's how I kind of understood that. And, again, Sam's gonna do Sam's saying to make things work. He's got a business to run. Yeah. I think, ultimately, the process will get much easier for everyone once this new method is in place. And it's probably what we should have done in the very beginning, but it was probably didn't exist at that time. So, you know, like anything

else, it's a moving target. And I don't even want it. I probably sound like it probably Adam's throwing, stones at his, computer screen right now because I probably described it all wrong. Probably. I I will get Well, depends on it. It's, you know, what it's doing now or what we would like it to be. Right? Well, we want it to be easy. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think we all want

that. Right? And that's why we're talking about it here is that, you know, it has to be talked in the industry about what's going on here and how anybody can take advantage of this. Or, I mean, it's been fairly complicated up until now. Well, the key is we're gonna we're hopefully unraveling all of that. And give us a month or 2, and I think there'll be a solution in place that will be easy for listeners, and and they'll be able to operate in

fiat funds. They won't have to do this stupid math and then figure out what a satoshi is. And I think in the end, we'll be able to make it all work. Yeah. It needs to be easy and simple. And it's not gonna involve the listener is not gonna think he's buying. My understanding is they it's transparent and that it's not like they think they're buying crypto. I I didn't even again, maybe I'm talking out of my my ear here, but listen to episode 185 starting at 35 minute mark.

Podcasting 2.0. I haven't got to 186 yet, so I don't know what they've said on 186. The last one was they were at a crypto event. It was really cool because there are all these musicians on stage, and you could see right in there. Yeah. You could see these boosts going up on screen and things like that. So it sounded like it wasn't so much like, here's what we're doing. It was just like, in the future. It was like, here's what's happening now. This

is cool. And these musicians are making money and they're doing the live concerts and all sorts of an and Dolby DAS from I think it's RSS Blue was doing a bunch of stuff and they were live streaming. It was just one of those things where it's cool, but if somebody said it's just a bunch of nerds going, can we do this? Let's see if we can do this. And then they did, and you're like, that's pretty amazing.

So that's the fun stuff. Then you're like, okay, now how can we do this without it using band aids and paper clips and, you know. And how can we get it so that people that don't know how to right click a mouse can participate? Right. Exactly. I don't think we'll ever get there. And Rob, you haven't I mean, the debut good luck on that first call. You know, I know you used to get those over at Libsyn, but My favorite was when I said, oh, all you need to do is copy this code and paste it into your

website, and your player will show up. And they emailed me back and said, what do you mean copy and paste? And I was like, challenge accepted. And I was like, and thankfully, I just gotten a Loom account. And I was like, I can show them how to do this. That's what I said. Screen share is the only answer to that. Right. Yeah. It was crazy. Can they do a screen share is the next question? Well, that's it. That's the thing you forget. You're like, oh,

just hop on the zoom call. And then right now, you're sitting there seeing the little bottom line waiting for audio to connect. And you're like, oh, okay. I see where we're at. In in Blueberry, we have this secret channel that the devs use. I mean, not not the devs, the support guys use, and I I was given a access to it. It's called rant. Yeah. Oh, let me guess what the beginning of every sentence starts with. I'm working with a consultant. There is about a 1,000 of those in there.

Yeah. Yes. So yeah. But I think, you know, it's thank god for Dave, and thank god for Mike and my Dave and Sean. And because if we didn't have those guys, taking care of the customers, they didn't they wouldn't wanna talk to Todd because, you know, we would probably have no customers left because I would probably be saying things to them that would make them quit and, you know, and find an account somewhere else. So, you know, you know, thank God that we have 3 gentlemen that are very patient.

I I spent 45 minutes one night with my pastor at my church that retired, and this is why he was retiring. And all I was trying to do was getting him to start an email and attach his document that he was retiring. It took me 45 minutes because he couldn't find the file. Then we found the file, and it was just like and after about a half hour, I I started to feel the hair on the back of my neck. I go, okay. He's getting to me a little bit. Hold on. We're we can get

there. We can do this. It's it's not all, you know, puppy dogs and rainbows. There are times when you're like, oh, this is this guy's getting to me. Okay. Alright. Challenge accepted. I can do this. So it's fun. So who who's picking up in your steed at over at at Libsyn? Is that gonna be Rob? Is he picking up? Or who has Yeah. Well, Rob because there was. It was me and Rob were handling pro accounts. So So when I left, it was Rob. And I know Rob Walsh. We should Rob

Walsh. Yeah. Yeah. And I I know a few people. Like, I I see. I don't wanna say who who applied because if they don't get it, then it looks bad. But I knew a few people, like, so you left them again. Like, would you take that job? I'm like, here's what it does. Here's what I liked. Here's what I didn't like. And so I know a few people that applied for it. So I don't know. Well, I'll look forward to picking up a few pro accounts before that new employee. So but yeah.

Yeah. Poor Rob. I felt bad. Because I was like, well, you can just take somebody from, you know, support. And he's like, maybe. Maybe not. We'll see. So but they they do have some things coming down the pike. So I'll be interested to see if, I don't think they're going to get it rolled out before podcast movement, but they got some new things coming down the road.

So. Yeah. I just wanted to mention that I was happy to see the Canadian company Pacific content got picked up by by a startup called lower street, which I thought was interesting that you know, who company was saved, you know, who works at lower street? I did not know this Shannon from Podbean. Oh, I didn't realize that either. Yeah. Because she was like, hey, we shared a headline today. And I was like, I didn't know you worked there. So I didn't know. Yeah. I didn't know that she I didn't I

had no idea where she went. Yeah. That's why I've Yeah. I know that she moved to, Spain for a while. So she lived in Spain for a while. Was was that company on the on their last legs? Or what was Yeah. They they were gonna go out of business. You know, Steve Pratt over there was the founder of it. You know, it just wasn't gonna be supported by their parent company anymore, which I can't remember who the parent company was. I don't know, Todd, if, or Dave, if you

remember, but I don't. And I know there were 2 guys, the other guy, I forget the name of his company, but he's like a podcast growth specialist. Harry Morton was the CEO of Lower Street. I remember him. Yeah. So it was a good company. His Lower Street Company is basically a podcast kind of development and production company is what it is. So that's the company that acquired them. So if they were a good company, why were they going out of business?

I think their parent company wanted to kind of Oh, someone else hold them down. That's what happens a lot. Companies get bought up, and then they're not given the resources they need to to throw or survive. Yeah. Exactly. And I believe that's what happened. You know, I think we're seeing quite a bit of this stuff going on in lots of different industries right now where there's just not, you know, capital is expensive and hard to

get. And so if a company needs to get financial resources, they have a hard time doing that to continue operations if they need it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cash is expensive right now. Very, very or loans or investments. Yep. Yeah. That free money is long, long gone. Yeah. And I also saw that the Magellan AI put out some stats around ad spending has increased 22% year on year, Todd. Did you see did you see James Stridland's, response to that on LinkedIn? No. I don't think I saw it. Yeah.

It was pretty good. Well, because it's mixing 2 different things together here that says, but the amount of ads in podcast has decreased 20%. So what that tells me is that maybe there's more spending going into a smaller number of shows. Well, I know I've seen a couple of shows that I know of that their one and only monetization strategy is ads. And they either, a, added 1 or

2 episodes a week. And I was like, that's kinda shows that the price of ads is coming down when people are like, you know, I got kids to feed, so here's another new episode. Now we do this on whatever day. And I was like, that's interesting. So That's something YouTubers are really famous for. Yeah. I always can see when revenue is down, all of a sudden I see the pace of shows bring leases increased and they're doing more shorts.

I can it's really a trend that is is pretty telling is when the pace goes up. Well, I always thought, I I know Blueberry, you know, Libsyn, a bunch of these places, you know, you built systems to take in ads. And I'm like, so the inventory got huge. So if I'm a sponsor, I can go to this person and go, I will give you this much money to sponsor your show. And they go, oh, no. That's not enough. All right. I'll just go

to the next one. And the next one, eventually somebody's gonna say, oh, I'll take that. And I was so I think it was Ross Brand asked for a prediction. I go, the price of podcast advertising is going to go down because somebody's gonna say, yes, they're gonna take that. And I'm like, I feel like we should all get together and go, hold the price. Everyone hold the prize. Oh, that's that's collusion. Be careful. Yeah. So yeah. That is true. But I will say this, we had our biggest programmatic

month ever, though, today. I got the report in. So programmatic is still doing great. Yeah. Yeah. I had Glenn Rubinstein on my podcast tips show this past week and he's the Ceo of Adopter Media, which is a an ad sales platform for brands selling into podcasts. And he was telling me that a lot of the CPMs that we see kind of claimed in the podcast medium of like 23 $24 CPMs is actually not what the real CPM is right now. It's actually quite a bit

lower. So it could be, I don't know why those numbers are getting put out like that, but he was telling me that on the show that it was more in the 20 range is where he's seeing the averages right right now for host reads. So so it's, you know, I just think that the news that we hear, we kind of have to take a little bit with a grain of salt as

compared to what maybe really going on. I I I'm a firm believer here that, you know, this is a situation where I don't think the long term prognosis is great for the advertising model within podcasting. Yeah. It's a a small number of shows just like on YouTube do very well where the majority of fee of shows eat sawdust.

So until, you know, we can monetize the 40% of the top 50 per you know, long as we if we can monetize 40% of shows globally, you know, we could add another 1,000,000,000 to advertising revenue, but it's been 19 to almost 20 years and the advertisers are never going to come into those smaller shows unless you have a boutique seller that is willing to, you know, do that extra work. Yeah. I watched it was really long. I watched the Garm discussion with the guy from

Daily Wire. I forget his name, but that whole thing. And I still I feel really stupid, but I'm like, couldn't this just be solved by the podcaster saying the following opinions do not necessarily represent those of the sponsor? Only Jimmy Kimmel can say that. Yeah. I'm like, why? Because I realize on one hand, people go, well, yeah. Well but people are still gonna sue you. And I'm like, well, then what does Garm do? Like, you know, people if I don't know. I that whole

part just makes my brain hurt. But I'm just like because I hear Tom putting out all these great reports about how well, you know, we podcasters are trusted, and it's the number one way of selling over radio and TV. It's like podcasting or knocking out of the park, and yet I'm hearing, yeah, we're not filling our inventory. And I'm like, how can that be? And I'm like and then while people are worried about brand safety, and I'm like, can't we just put a little disclaimer at the

beginning? Like, that seems to solve that, but I must be missing something. The ratings. Gives brands, you know, another lever against either either price levels or be able to run a campaign on a particular podcast that maybe doesn't align with the values of the brand. So in some ways, you know, and we've talked about this on this show too, is there's a reduction in in CPMs oftentimes that are driven based on these GARM ratings of content within podcasts.

So it's being used as a lever. And yeah, Glenn and I talked about that on the podcast too. If we could fill the 250 to 300,000,000 downloads that are not monetized on Blueberry every month, I'm gonna tell you it would be life changing. Not only for the company, it'd be life changing for podcasters too. Yeah. And I think it's important that we see the development of a value for value type of a model is a possible kind of replacement or something for advertising in the long

run. I would I would you know, value for value, and and we had Matt on he was in the chat room here earlier. I think he still is. Matt Maderos. And the value for value thing, you know, Matt's video that he did really did a great job, and I apologize. I I don't think I ever got it in the show notes. I missed the link or something to that effect. But if you go to value for value dot info, value the letter 4, value dot info, and really understand what's being said there,

it it's a completely change of mindset. And podcasters have to understand that the value piece on this is you have to provide value. Yeah. You have to give valuable content. You know, hopefully, what we've said today has been valuable. And if you think the value was great today, then great. Go over to new mediashowdot com, and we got a PayPal link and send us some money for that value. Again, you have to give value

to get value back. Yeah. That's step 1. I have on my next episode of the school of podcasting, I'll be playing a clip that somebody just sent me over Facebook, Vincent Pugliese. He who hasn't had it. He he kind of took a break for his podcast. So it's been at least a year. And he said, this guy contacted me and said, hey, do you wanna see the Eagles in the sphere in Vegas? He's like, man, I love the Eagles. That'd

be amazing. He's like, great. He goes, you've given me so much value from your podcast that has changed my business and James, and I just want to give back. And I'm like, that is value for value. I was like, there you go. So he's gonna go see the Eagles in Vegas. And I was like, that's amazing. So what? And what that guy did was he gave back in time, talent, or treasure, and he used his treasure to give value back in the form of some tickets. So, you know and not everyone can give treasure.

So, like, if you're a listener of this show or a viewer of this show and you like what you do, again, you can contribute your time, your talent, or your treasure. We always need people to help promote the show. Time, if you got time, let us know you got time to help the show. We can put you to work for sure. We'll give you some stuff to do. And if you're too busy in life and you say, I love what you guys do, then the treasure piece is great.

Rob and I have never done advertising on this show, so, you know, we do it for the love of the podcasting space. But, boy, I tell you, those little donations that come in once more are sure nice. Yeah. New media expo.com. No. Not new media expo. Sorry. Newmedia show.com. Wow. There's a phrase I haven't said in a long time. Yeah. I think new media Maybe we should start our own expo, Todd. No. Rob, if you wanna organize it, I'll show up, but, I'm doing nothing other than that. There you go.

And we could be like the all in podcast and have our own new media show summit. Right? Well, Dave, now that you're, you know, that you're off on your own, we'll have to have you on more. You have to come over and tell us what's new over at PodPage. We're, you know, we're we don't bite people when they tell us about new stuff. It's always exciting. Yeah. Happy to that's just the thing. It's like, oh, I can it's funny because I can network now with people that are other media hosts.

And I'm trying to network with other podcast consultants because, you know, there's an affiliate program for PodPage. And they're wait a minute. You're kind of in, like, we're competitors now. I'm like, well, no. Like, I'm not here to steal your audience or whatever. So, yeah, it's fun to, As long as you guys don't get in the hosting business, we can stay friends. No. And and and Brendan just said, I do not want to be a media. He's had people request that. Did that. Right? Yeah. He's

like, nope. We don't do that. We're not an email we'll help you collect email addresses, but we're not an email list. You know, we make it easy to integrate and things like that. So but, but, yeah, thanks for having me, guys. It's been fun. Yeah. Absolutely. Appreciate it. Yeah. And congrats on your new gig. Yeah. Thank you. Yep. So far, I love in every minute of it. So

That's the key. And my son just recently, he shared with me he got a trip to Alaska and, he went up on a photo shoot for an automotive event. And it was one of his first paid gigs and, well, he didn't get paid a lot. He got airfare, transportation, hotel, food, blah blah blah. And he's young, and I'm like I'm just like so proud of him. I said, man,

you're building your, you know, your resume. You're building, and he got himself a he'd become the lead creator for a new company in Hawaii, and I'm just like, you know, you he said, it was fun. I said, well, that if going to work can be fun, I said, very few people can say that, that they wake up in the morning and go to work and have fun. And I said, it's not working when it's fun. And I, you know, for me, it's sometimes I feel it's not fun, but I

still have fun in the podcasting space. So, Dave, as long as you wake up happy and having fun, you have less gray hair. Of course, I think you're already there. Yeah. I'm I have I have one spot in my mustache that won't turn gray, but other than that, I'm I'm pretty much done in that department. So Oh, boy. Yeah. You're keeping your hair, so it's doing okay there. Kinda. It used to be down here. It's, you know, I'm like, but if I get my mom or my

dad's side of the jeans, it'll stay. If I get my mom's side of the jeans, be shaving my head. So we'll see what happens here. Well, maybe some changes here next week, Rob. I don't know if I'll be ready. I'm gonna do my best effort, but probably 2 weeks from now if, of course, podcast movement might interrupt some of this. But I'm eyeing the space and there's a magic

transformation that's gonna happen in here. And I hit my Amazon and b and h and spent a bunch of money today to to prepare for the because I'm not paying rent. So it's, you know, kind of a I'll save you some money. Yeah. Relatively inexpensive, you know. So we're gonna hodgepodge this together. I'm gonna do a poor man's studio and see how it goes. So we're on for next Wednesday too? Yeah. Unless there's some other thing that's coming up, I don't I think

we're good. Okay. Sounds good. So, Dave, what's the best way for people to to reach out to you or contact you or find your stuff? Yeah. My stuff is the best place to school of podcasting.com. If you wanna see everything, I do have a Linktree site as much as I hate those things, but this is the only time I use it. If you wanna see everything I do, go to power of podcasting.com. Okay. Awesome. And Todd? I'm [email protected]@blueberry.com@[email protected]

on Mastodon. And for those of you that are not yet subscribed to the podcasting 2 point o show, please join the boardroom. I think there's enough conversation going on there that it gets pretty geeky. But if you're trying to figure out what the heck I'm trying to decipher, go back a few episodes and listen to those episodes. I think you'll get a more insightful explanation of what's changing and and what's going to be moving forward in podcasting 2.0. And Todd's company is at this domain name

blueberry? Blueberry.com without the ease. We couldn't afford the ease. They're very expensive. Right? And I can be found on x at Rob Greenlee. You can send me an email if you want [email protected]. Happy to hear from you. And and thank you. Thanks, everybody, for being with us for the last hour and 43 minutes. That's quite a long show for us. But, Dave, thank you so much for being here with us. I appreciate it. And it's good luck to your your coaching and stuff

like that with pod page. I think it's awesome. It's an awesome move for you. And, Todd, it's great to see you again too and to see you back in the United States. So, yeah. And thank everyone. All right. Thank you. Bye everybody.