Spring is here. And to celebrate, Princeton University Press is having an incredible say. Use the code BLOOM50 to receive nearly 50% off of every single Princeton University Press print book, e-book, and audio book. The sale ends May 31st. So go to press.princeton.edu and use the code BLOOM50 as soon as possible. You won't regret it. Network. Hello, and welcome to the Van Leer Institute series on ideas. I'm your host, Renee Garfinkel.
Today we're diving into the world of history, faith, and storytelling with one of the most distinguished voices in the field of religious studies, Dr. Elaine Pagel. Dr. Pagels has been captivating readers for decades with her explorations of early Christianity and the way religious narratives shape human experience. Her latest book, Miracles and Wonder, The Historical Mystery of Jesus, tackles one of the most profound questions of all.
How did the figure of Jesus transform from a historical rabbi into the mythic presence whose stories continue to impact people worldwide? Through meticulous scholarship and a deep empathy for human experience, Dr. Pagels challenges us to reconsider how the miraculous elements of the Christian story came to be and what they really mean, whether you are a religious believer, a skeptic, or somewhere in between.
Dr. Pagel's work will encourage you to think critically about the power of storytelling, the search for historical truth, and the ongoing human quest to find meaning in ancient narratives. Elaine Pegels, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. You've written exhaustively and extensively about early Christian texts before. What was different about this book in terms of approach and purpose? Well, Renee, the other books I wrote...
were about very specific issues. They came out of scholarly articles that I'd written first. a cache of ancient texts, as you know. which I called the Gnostic Gospels because we didn't know what to call them. But they're simply a collection of 52 ancient texts, some Christian, some Jewish, some referring to all kinds of other Greek and Roman. Another on views of sexuality to the politics. And one on the origin of Satan, which was quite different.
Another on the gospel of Thomas, but this This was an attempt to to give a more comprehensive picture. of how we see the early history of Christianity in light of recent discoveries and different ways of engaging in scholarship. So it engages the... verses in the New Testament, the so-called secret Gospels, and especially as far as one can find it, what's happening on the ground in Judea. as far as Greek and Roman sources, and of course the great historian Josephus, you know, inform us.
Was there something different about writing this book in its meaning for you? There is, because having been teaching this for so long, I kept thinking, why am I still captivated by these stories? Why do I find them engaging to speak about, to teach and think about? Because on the surface of it, if you look at the earliest account, the Gospel of Mark in the New Testament, it's a 15-page narrative of antidotes in the life of Jesus of Nazareth. And yet, you know, there's been thousands of years of
interpretation of those texts and people patterning their lives on these texts. So I thought, what do we actually know about Jesus of Nazareth historically? What do we not know? Which I'd say is about 95%. And why does anybody care? That is, why do these rather simple stories become catalyst for this enormous series of traditions that we call Christianity. Well, let's start at the very beginning of Jesus' life.
Why do you think stories like The Virgin Birth persisted and became central to Christian doctrine despite their inconsistencies, which you explain in the book? Even though They come first chronologically if you're thinking about a biographical text. The earliest account, as you know, the Gospel of Mark, written 40 years after the death of Jesus. has nothing like that. It simply pictures Jesus as a carpenter living in rural Nazareth.
He has four brothers and he also has sisters who apparently aren't important enough to mention. And he's called Jesus the son of Mary. In the same account, in Mark's account, His family seems intensely concerned and worried about his appearance in public as a would-be prophet and healer. And when he goes into the synagogue in his own town and starts to speak authoritatively, his neighbors say, where did this man get all this?
Isn't this Jesus the carpenter, the son of Mary? We know his brothers and sisters. What is he doing here? What was striking about that account is that in Mark, Jesus first appears as an adult and somebody intensely affected by the teaching of a... preacher in the wilderness, this man called John the Baptist, who seems to be influenced by the Essenes, the people living at the Dead Sea community, proclaiming the apocalyptic end of the world and insisting that
His hearers prepare for God's coming for the day of judgment. And Jesus goes to become baptized. And the story opens as he is a young man being baptized in the desert. And the story says that the Spirit of God came upon him. The author here is speaking in the language of the Spirit coming on Saul when he became the first king of Israel and coming upon David and coming upon the prophets and so forth.
So after the Spirit comes upon him, he hears a heavenly voice, and he begins to speak in prophecy. about the end of time, and he is said to do many miracles. But there's nothing about a birth... or much less a miraculous birth. What's very strange is that he's called the Son of Mary. This is very much a patriarchal culture at that time. If he had an acknowledged father, even if the father had died,
He would have certainly not been called the son of his mother. Other followers of Jesus apparently were troubled by that question. because they're claiming that he's the Messiah and, you know, effectively the future king of Israel. You can't be the future king of Israel without a lineage. So other followers of Jesus. subsequent decades the ones called Matthew and Luke and birth story The problem is that the birth stories are completely different.
And they're patterned on stories in the Hebrew Bible. Matthew patterns his story on the birth of Moses. And Luke patterns his story on the birth of Isaac. and also the birth of the prophet Samuel, because both are attributed to God's power counter to natural biological birth. Of course, the birth of Isaac is supposed to occur when... when his mother is extremely old, incapable of pregnancy. And the birth of Samuel, of course, occurs in response to prayer to God in the temple.
So those writers are trying to say, well, there are other surprising births in the history of our people. But none of them suggest that anyone is conceived without natural... relationship between a man and a woman so there's a question about the birth of Jesus and at the same time we know that when those Gospels were written people hostile to the movement were people hostile to the movement that was growing up around Jesus of Nazareth after his death said
that he was illegitimately born. He didn't have any legitimate father, and some went so far as to say that his father wasn't even Jewish, that he was a Roman soldier. So in response to those... Allegation. and attacks on the movement. His followers created stories of a miraculous birth and they patterned it on Isaiah 7. in which the Lord promises to give Israel a sign. and the sign is to be the birth of a child who will be God with us. But the passage they use, as you know, is,
is a passage that speaks about a virgin giving birth. That is only if you read it in Greek. If you read it in Hebrew, it's a young woman who gives birth. I'm sorry, this is convoluted. I should perhaps... shorten it and simply say that we also know that near Nazareth At the time of Jesus' birth, the city of Sepphoris had been attacked by Romans for harboring a revolutionary. There were thousands of Roman soldiers stationed about little more than three miles from Nazareth.
And British and also Israeli military historians have said that many... Parents in that area were worried about young people being sexually assaulted, whether they were male or female, by these Roman soldiers who were marauding and roving in that area. So the thought of... of such a birth is historically plausible. If there weren't some strange event there or some event that was being covered up, I can't imagine why anyone would go to the trouble of writing these elaborate birth stories.
So the supposition of many scholars has been that Jesus was illegitimately the son of somebody else who was never named. So the story of the virgin birth is a counter, an attempt to counter attacks like that on the movement. What is the truth of the situation? We don't actually know. It does seem to me plausible that there's some... that it could well be true that there was such an irregularity in the birth of Jesus.
But the stories have... sort of covered that over with the claim about a miraculous virgin birth well as you just explained and you use other examples in the book, you suggest that some of the gospel stories were constructed to serve theological rather than historical purposes. Understanding that, how does the understanding of that reshape the way we should understand early Christianity? Well, that's only one story, and yet it suggests that...
What this shows is that The Gospel accounts in the New Testament are not meant to be historical biographies. they're meant to be. promotions of the teaching of Jesus, the teaching that the kingdom of God is coming, the end of the world is coming, be prepared for the day of judgment. That's the message. And to persuade you of that, they want to present Jesus of Nazareth as a genuine prophet and certainly not anyone with something disparaging lurking in his background.
So it means that as historians we have to look at the texts for what they are and not as if they were histories. Well let's look more deeply into the historical and political context of the life story of Jesus. What role did Roman political pressure play in shaping the portrayal of Jesus in the gospel? And how did the brutality of the Roman occupation in Judea influence the narrative of Jesus' birth, as you mentioned, and also the end of his life?
Well, completely. You see, when I was growing up and occasionally went to church, my parents were particularly religious. My father had given it all up for science. But the picture of Jesus one would see, I mean literally a painting on the wall, would be a blonde, blue-haired, blue-blue-eyed Jesus. with children on his lap and flowers all around. A very gentle, loving, sort of everyday picture. But what this leaves out is exactly what you mentioned. that Jesus was living...
under the pressure of Roman domination. Judea was completely being controlled at that time by the policies of the Roman emperor and by the military troops. that occupied Judea. They weren't completely occupied until after the Jewish war, but there were many soldiers. And the presence of war and resistance to Roman domination shapes the whole narrative. Of course, that is the reason for his death, because he was crucified by the Romans on charges of insurrection against Rome.
That's the charge for which the worst kind of execution, crucifixion, would be order. You mentioned the allusion of the birth of Jesus to the birth circumstances of Isaac and Moses. Talk a little more about the parallels between the stories of Jesus and myths from other ancient cultures. Oh, well, of course, as you suggest, When you look at descriptions of the birth of Julius Caesar, the birth of Alexander the Great, and others, they often are
described as having divine beings in their genealogy. Julius Caesar is also a son of the goddess Venus.
Plato, Alexander the Great have gods in their genealogy as well. But nobody suggests, as far as I could see, that that precluded actual... sexual conception so this story is quite different what Matthew does to pattern it upon the life of Moses is he describes how when Jesus was born an evil tyrant is trying to destroy all of the Jewish babies in order to kill The one that Matthew pictures as the prince. destined to be the king of Israel.
So just as Moses escaped slaughter of many Jewish babies under Pharaoh, so he says Jesus escaped slaughter under King Herod. ruled by the Romans. who slaughtered many, in fact, all the male children under two in Jewish communities because he was afraid of the birth of a young prince who would succeed him. So that's part of the story. And then he pictures Jesus again as Moses going up on a mountain and speaking about the Torah and giving a new interpretation of the...
of what Moses received on the mountain and so forth. And the parallel with Moses occurs throughout the whole of these Gospels. The birth of Isaac, too, as I said, was an impossibility. But this is quite different from the Greek and Roman stories as I read them.
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was coincidental or it was intentional borrowing to make a point? It could not be accidental. These writers and the people who follow Jesus of Nazareth are steeped in the scripture. Their scriptures, of course, are the Hebrew Bible. of the Gospel of Mark, so-called. It's only this, as I said, about a 15-page narrative, follow a pattern of the stories of the Exodus. The miracles that Jesus is said to have performed in the Gospel of Mark follow precisely the story of Moses.
As soon as you see that this is the underlying theme that connects the story. And so anybody familiar with the Hebrew Bible, which would be any you know, devout Jew in the audience, and of course these are written by Jews, Matthew and Mark, they would feel the allusions to those stories and recognize that What the Gospel writers are saying is what God did for Israel in the time of Moses is now Jesus is about to do for his people in our time. That was the claim.
Of course, the great challenge to that claim that he was going to restore Israel and make it a great power as the exodus goes into the... founding of Israel and the great empire of King David and his successors, is that Jesus didn't become the king. He was caught, arrested, tortured, crucified. So they have to deal with that shocking and devastating event which... turned probably a majority of people away from the movement at the time. Alain, let's move to the 21st century for a moment.
Why do you think miracles continue to hold such power in the human imagination, even in our time of skepticism and for some people science? That's a very good question. And being a historian and somewhat of a rationalist,
In previous readings, I often kind of skipped over the miracles, and some Christians have always said, well, that's not the important point. The important point is the teaching of Jesus about how people treat each other, and I think that's... true that the teaching of Jesus about
how human beings should behave to one another is fundamental. But this time around, I began to see that the miracles are enormously important to the story and also to the entire Bible if we start with Genesis and Exodus. Because the stories there, as I now understand them, start in the world that we live in. A world in which people are born blind or suffering or... They would say possessed with demons, but we could say mentally unstable, a world of war and death.
But the stories always move into hope. That is, the people enslaved become a great nation, right? And Daniel in the lion's den thrown there for his to be. massacred comes out alive or Jonah in in the whale comes out fully intact And Jesus. crucified, suffering a terrible death, is said to have come back and lives again. And these may not be historical. accounts are historically verified in every case, certainly. They have storied elements, as you say.
I don't like to call them myths, they're stories. But what the stories do is suggest that whatever circumstance you and I face in the present, if you apply these stories to ourselves, However dark it looks, however totally impossible the situation feels. It could turn into a blessing. It could turn into a new and glorious day. Now that's not always substantiated in our experience, but that's what makes the stories, I think, very powerful in the way they can lift the spirits of people.
How do you handle criticisms from other scholars or any readers? who might see your approach as undermining traditional Christian beliefs and stripping them of sacred mystery. Well... People studying these texts historically have often been accused of that. And many scholars have approached these texts in order to debunk them and say, well, these are nothing but cover-ups for terrible things that happened. The tone of what I'm writing is not that.
because I've come to appreciate these stories and recognize that they are powerfully moving. One of the models, for the way I understand them, occurs in the famous book by Viktor Frankl. called man's search for meaning in which he is living as you know in the most unimaginably terrible situation of all, which was his experience in Auschwitz. And yet he said, even there, the people who would survive, and that's what he was looking for, how can someone survive the unimaginable?
He said the people who do are the people who understand that their suffering, no matter how insurmountable it seems, has meaning. And so these texts, and also those in the Hebrew Bible that speak about hope coming out of... stressful and dangerous situations also speak about meaning. The 23rd Psalm, which Jesus is said to have quoted as he's dying.
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Is, you know, traditionalists attribute it to King David. And the end of the psalm is a celebration of God's gifts and his power. And so that's the same movement that you see in these stories. I'm talking about the technique of story writing, not teaching theology. But I do see that there's a religious power in that way of approaching stories and our own lives.
And speaking of the technique of storytelling, you worked with Martin Scorsese on The Last Temptation of Christ. Tell us something about what that experience was like. Oh, well, actually, he started that field later. He was going to write a film about the Gnostic Cospels, and then he decided to do something different. Those themes, I think, do inspire people. And I did speak with him about that film. I also wanted very much Rene to look at...
How contemporary artists, musicians, and painters appropriate these stories? Why would they go back to the story of Jesus? The answer that I tried to articulate in the last part of the book and why people convert today is that the stories do offer hope and a sense of... power to people. You know, I'm thinking of the movies I comic, but also the paintings. I mean, I'm sure you noticed those too. Sure, absolutely.
It's true. They are very powerful. They are the stories that are the foundation of Western society. All of the scriptures. Yeah. I mean, as I read it, Jesus was, they portray the gospel picture of Jesus. proclaiming what's an interpretation of what's articulated in Genesis 1.26, which speaks about God making humankind, Adam, in his image.
And if all are made in his image, it's not only about Israel, but all people. And that's the way the Gospels interpret Jesus' teaching. That offers hope to people today. For example, to... Those in India who were considered non-human because they were sub-cast, outcast, literally. The Dalit people welcomed the story of Jesus because it suggested to them that even day or less than human in Hindu theology
could be human beings like everyone else. So that's a story of hope as well, and also a story about God's justice. That's the way they read it. teach us anything about critical thinking and belief, especially in this time where misinformation, disinformation, the blurring of reality and imagination or fiction is so... That is such an interesting question. because so often people have read them as if to say, is this true? Did it really happen that way historically? Or is it not true?
Either I believe it, even though it's absurd, as some people said, or I can't believe it because it's nonsense. I mean, I don't see these stories as as trying to replicate history as I say but finding meaning in certain events and it's that as you say it's more of a story about Jesus that interprets an actual life and a terrible death of that man as a story about hope and divine justice. And so... You know, on that level, it's powerful.
But it's so, okay, I'm stumbling, but you'll have to correct this bumbles. You mentioned that the family or family of origin, the family in which you were raised, was not particularly religious. You've spent a lifetime involved in sacred texts. How has your own understanding of faith or spirituality been affected? through the process of not only writing this book, but your work overall. Yes, my family, my father had grown up in a world, and this is very typical of America, American religion.
in which either God created the world in seven days. or that's total nonsense, and you follow science. And as soon as he discovered scientific understanding of the world, he just totally thought, these biblical stories are silly old folktales. We don't need them at all. But that's because they take them literally. My own view is that My own understanding of religious practice these days is not that it requires belief in a...
as some belief in statements in a creed. That's what Christianity becomes in the fourth century when it becomes allied with the political structure of the Roman Empire. But initially it was just called the way. It was not even... seen as Christian as opposed to Jewish, except that it expanded that sense of the way to people who were non-Jews as well, as the Apostle called it. But I see... religious experience.
coming out of practice out of out of prayer out of hope out of ways of exploring and seeking for understanding and for hope in a time of darkness. And that... What it does for you is that the message that you hope readers will take away from the book, especially those who hold... deep personal beliefs about Jesus? What is your message to them? That's a good question. That you don't have to
to take these stories literally, to take them seriously. The same is true about the Hebrew Bible, right? I mean, if you read the stories of miracles of Moses. The story is about a people moving from slavery into freedom. exactly the mechanics of the miracles of parting an ocean as if I mean, I know the Dead Sea wasn't an ocean, but that's the way it's been pictured in later.
times very often. You don't have to believe that literally to take seriously the possibility of movement into hope and meaning. And so I don't take the stories literally in many cases, except to think that there was such a man. And after his death, which was horrendous, although many of his followers completely... thought they'd been wrong all the time. They had a sense that there was still hope for a new kind of life. You've even seen it
recur in New York with the example of Menachem Schneerson, the Rebbe of the Lubavitcher community. Not everyone would like that image. analogy but that that movement after he died they said well he couldn't be the Messiah and nevertheless some people went on to believe that and started a movement so Thank you. Maybe we should talk a little more because I'm sorry I'm not as...
articulate as I can. You're very articulate. Shall we start it? I'll ask you the final question, which is really speculative, because I wonder, did the earliest listeners to the gospel and the Jesus stories. think that these miracles really happened? Or was there sort of? Not to be disrespectful, a wink and a nod.
a sense that the stories were true in another kind of way, not literally. Which we don't really know the answer to that. No, we don't. And in the ancient world, as you know, there were no hospitals. And many people practice healing. And I do believe that there are people who have powers too. speak to people who are suffering and ease or even cure.
their diseases. I don't think that's impossible. Is that a placebo? Is that a miracle? I don't know. A miracle is an interpretation of an event after all. if someone has a remission from a terrible diagnosis. you can say he was lucky or you can say it's a miracle because a miracle is an interpretation of an event that that sees it as a divine gift.
And the stories, too, can be read simply as deluded believers or a story about people who... looked at the world they lived in and the work of Jesus of Nazareth and believed that something powerful had transformed their understanding of themselves and their lives. and given them new life and new hope. The book is Historical Miracles and Wonder, The Mystery of Jesus by Elaine Pagels. Thanks so much for talking with me today, Elaine.
Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. And thanks to our researcher, Bela Pasikov.