The Midlife Shift: Discovering Authenticity and Vulnerability with Mo Issa

Welcome back to Season 12 of the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning podcast, where we connect the science-based evidence behind social and emotional learning and emotional intelligence training for improved well-being, achievement, productivity, and results using what I saw as the missing link, since we weren't taught this when we were growing up in school, the application of practical neuroscience.

I'm Andrea Samadhi, an author and an educator with a passion for learning, and launched this podcast six years ago with the goal of bringing all the leading experts together in one place to help us to apply this research in our daily lives.

On today's episode number 346 we meet with someone i've known over the years it was about 10 years ago that i was connected to our next guest through our mutual friend motivational speaker bob proctor at the time i had no idea how much of a supporter to my work he would be over the years. And he's one of the influencers who's helped me to discover and live on my own authentic path.

He was one of the first to use our curriculum for teenagers for a soccer school that he ran in Accra, Ghana, and his belief and trust in me helped me to see this in myself. We never forget those who've helped us along this journey called life, and I'm forever grateful to have met Moisa when I was starting out on my own journey of self-discovery, where I left the corporate world for a 10-year period to make an impact on our schools.

Over the years, I followed Mo's work, specifically his writing, which until reading his book that we'll cover today, The Midlife Shift, I had no idea how much Mo's writing would inspire me to keep going, to keep learning and growing on my own path. Right on the front page of his website, you can read his own words. He says, I'm a writer who believes when we find ourselves stuck in life, it's because we lack meaning and we don't feel challenged.

In his books, essays, and podcasts, he encourages making small changes to embrace self-discovery, simplify life, and focus on a deep sense of fulfillment. Let's meet Moisa, an author of three books who's spoken regularly at conferences and workshops, including TEDx, ACRA Conference, someone who's read 50 books a year for the past 10 years, and see what we can learn about living our true authentic life and improve our own self-awareness in this discovery process. Let's meet Mo Issa.

Welcome, Mo Issa. Mo, it's been a long time since we've spoken.

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast to share your work with us i can't even tell you how much your writing specifically, has helped me over the years this is such an important and special interview for me thank you so much for being here mo oh wow thank you thank you for such kind words honestly i'm i'm i'm taking it back now, This is special, Mo, because, you know, for our audience who might not know your work and stuff and how we met, like, it's pretty special that you came

through my mentor, Bob Proctor, supported my work over the years. And, you know, people might not know, you know, your journey over the time you published. Is it three books now? This one we're going to talk about, The Midlife Shift, it's three? Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the first one was a short book of poetry. And the other two, one one is called The Shift, which is more like self-help book. The Midlife, this one now, it's more a memoir.

It's more storytelling about my life in the past 10, 12 years. Yeah, it was impactful for me. So this is, I'm so happy to have you here. So for our audience who might not know what I know about you, can you just share what brought you to this place now where you started with, I saw your writing come through. I used to watch you posting on Twitter and on social media, and I was a part of your newsletter. And I would read your writing, and I was captivated by it.

So can you just start with, you know, where did your writing begin, and what led you to where you are now with three books?

Where did it start i mean the the funny thing is is i never thought of writing as something that i'll do even though i studied law and or and many lawyers are writers as well but i never practiced law and i remember once we were in a birthday party some friends a group of us and so we're all saying what if if you were living an alternate life what would you want to be so i just blurted out i'd love to be a writer and i like i never

really took any notice of that but i mean it was I guess it was hidden somewhere. And as my journey unfolded, you'll see through the book and when we go through our conversation here, there were some reflection points. There weren't any Hollywood aha moments people expect, like woke up and became a writer. No, it didn't work like that. But I was struggling for a while to find my voice, my authentic voice. And that's when writing sort of fell on my lap. And one of the chapters I write

about, both running and writing, sort of fell on my laps. And then I started slowly. I started, but honestly, it's the reading that always leads to writing, right? The more you read, the more you want to write. And expressing myself, I guess I didn't, I wasn't expressing myself all along the years. I reached maybe, I would say around maybe mid-40s, and I still wasn't expressing myself. So I'm definitely, I'm a late doomer. It all started using Julia Cameron's Morning Pages book, right?

The journaling in the morning. And I found myself gushing out with all these emotions and feelings and thoughts and ideas. And it was only when I put pen to paper that all these things came through. Before, it was like a blank page. It's as if I need time to sort of think and write. Some people are very good in saying what they want, what they feel. I'm not. So that's part of the answer. It's a long-winded answer to your question, but we can continue further down

that road, right? Yeah, just reading your book, Mo, I related so much to the writing helped you. It started with the reading, and then it comes through you through writing.

And your exercise, your running helped it come through. And I noticed, so I write my interview questions and then I will go take a hike and I think, what else can I ask that goes deeper? I don't want to just ask, you know, hey, tell me about your books, Mo. No, I want to know more. I want to know who you are inside. And so tell me a little bit about that, like how you started getting the deep stuff to come out even further through it all.

Yes. So after that time of reflection, when I started journaling and sort of becoming more aware, all of a sudden, I think I came back from a trip. I'd broken my hand, a freak accident. So I was regularly gymming. I couldn't gym anymore. So I said, you know, there's nothing else I could do. I was on the plane and I was reading a magazine and this big thing about running and athletic. So I said, you know what, that's how I'm going to start doing running.

So I get back to Ghana and I start running regularly. and without knowing it, I started getting very emotional in my runs, I would run early in the morning. Sometimes I'll be running with tears and running down my cheeks, and I really didn't understand it. But afterwards, I began to understand more and more that really it's self-awareness alone is not enough sometimes. And you need some kind of bodily activity sort of to release some of these obstacles in us.

So I think, I'm not a neuroscientist, I'm not a psychologist, but I think that's what was happening. I was sort of a lot of these, and I say it in one of my chapters in the book, Danny Shapiro calls them samskaras, which are like knots of energy that are sort of becoming obstacles in our body. So when I ran, I was running all these little tiny knots in my body were sort of untying and opening me up. And it was so blissful for like six months before my knees started giving me issues.

It was beautiful beautiful way of expressing myself running and i would come back after the run and as you said after a hike after a walk your mind is just okay i i get the runner's high during the run but afterwards even it continues like i'm such on a different plane and i was, writing deeper things and and from there i started sort of writing short articles and i i got published and with elephant journal and rebel society and i started regularly writing a column for them.

So really, it all started within that period, the running and the writing and the journaling all together. Got it. And so what I was thinking was when your knees cut out, what do you do then? Because, you know, it's happening. I'm over 50 now and things are starting to hurt with the exercise that I was used to. I was used to really pushing it and I can't do as much as I used to. So how did you still get that?

That awareness did did walk still work like how did you get those knots out without pushing the body exactly now with the running i think what i did i adjusted my myself like more stretching before and after physiotherapy so that helped for a while until i had a i had an accident where i broke my my right ankle in in two places so i running is pretty hard but now what i do is walk and hike i'm just back from a holiday in in peru but we hiked for 10 days sensational

yeah we got up to 4800 meters which i don't know how many in feet so definitely walking does it now i do what that's what i do i regularly walk i i do some kind of like i play paddle it's called a paddle tennis it's a racket game i'm a bit obsessed with it so it keeps me going but i i and and after reading I don't know if you've read the book, The Body Keeps the Score, right? Vendor, Vendor, Vendor, something like that. Yeah. I mean, he explains it very well. I didn't understand it then.

But I mean, our body is part of us and we keep on forgetting that. You know, it's like we keep on thinking mind and cerebral. But our body also talks to us.

And I think when we move whether it's walking, dancing hiking, running it really helps with the self-awareness isolated, you see some people do things without the self-awareness just movement alone I don't think really helps transform you, Likewise, when you do the self-reflection alone, journaling without the bodily movement, again, you get it intellectually, but you don't get it emotionally. And that's just my take on what happened to me.

I don't know neuroscience or how a psychologist, Basel, keeps the body, keeps the body, explained it, but that's what works for me. Yeah, definitely. Over the years, I've asked this question, because in order for me to do difficult work, like understand the neuroscience, I would have to exercise really hard to be tired before I could focus. And talking to some experts, they said, you know, that was an important process to be ready to take in deep work and be ready to focus.

So you know and then then i'm noticing well what if i don't have time for that before i need to do some deep work what else can i do so it's it's good to know that you know going for a walk with the dogs or something would still be enough to do that reflection i think what it is bottom line is it's it's you're trying to remove your egoic mind aside that voice the shattering voice that keeps talking and talking and talking and one and when you exercise and you're tired

it sort of just shuts up and and then the subconscious comes out and more of your real deeper thoughts and feelings come out i think that's totally it that is yeah so so i'm remembering when we were first planning this meeting and we were talking on on chat and you said to me that you know i'm happy and inspired that you've got the one thing that gets you up every morning.

So I figured out that recording these podcast episodes, doing the research, writing the questions, learning, and then asking you about them, that's what drives me in my whole outside world. It makes me a better worker. It makes me better at home. But then when routines change, I just wonder with all the times that you've changed routines, you've moved countries, you've had to start over in new places. How do you make sure you don't lose that thing that inspires you every day?

I mean, that's a great question, because honestly, if I want to be honest, I keep losing it and sort of realigning to it. It's not easy. And that's why I said I really do envy people like you and who have that one thing sometimes. And I know you have your struggles. I'm not saying you're, I'm sure you do, like all of us.

But what I've tried to do over the years, especially the last seven years, is that I stick to like my morning routine sort of helps ground me.

I get up early I like getting up early by five I'm up 5 30 maximum I read the first thing I do is I read don't go to the phone or anything I just read whether it's fiction or non-fiction or poetry especially someone they like Rumi or Khalil Gibran the minute I read them it just reminds me of who I am like I'm a I am a soul not just a human being who's a doing doing doing person all the time and then i i journal some of my thoughts i sometimes meditate i'm on and off again i'm not

the perfect meditator sometimes it works for me for six months or nine months in a row then suddenly it stops but i find these and and then i try to write something after my journaling whether it's an article or whether towards the book that i'm writing so these are the things that sort of keep me grounded to to who the real self is but But honestly, I'm challenged with it because I also run a business and my own company for 30 years now. And...

Business is dog eat dog really and we all know that it's it's not easy to be somebody who reads poetry in the morning and then go and face face face a business world and become effective in that so so i i'm i'm struggling i still struggle till today with it but i have these uh these morning routines that sort of brand me yeah no i i think that's the important part for sure and, what I'm trying to get back on track and sometimes routines change like I used to be able to have

enough time in the morning but I'm finding now my exercise has to go to night so it's switching things around changing things up as as you change and and evolve I guess it doesn't always have to be the same time just making sure the things that that I need are in the day somehow right but but i find it so much harder to do everything at night on the evening right it's in the morning everything is easy then yeah it's to get it out of the way yeah

yeah it's so much harder in the evening whether it's exercise or writing or whatever yeah yeah you're you're absolutely right yeah so so then you know when i when i first started you know working with you back in the day i remember that you had your ted talk that came out rich successful strong yet empty. I think it was around 2015. Was it about that year? Right. And I saw you as strong and serious as a real business leader back then.

And, you know, I knew you worked closely with Bob Proctor and I knew you spent time giving back to young people with these success principles. And I remember being surprised that you thought maybe you were living your life wrong. So could Could you just take me back or take us back to where you were living your life and what you discovered that was missing? And how did you pinpoint what it was at that time?

Okay, I mean, it's quite a long story, but let me start from the beginning, because around 2008, 2008, I think, late, so 2007, 2008, two things happened sort of really shook my world. And it's always when things happen strongly that you start thinking, you know, or self-reflecting. One of them was my nephew was in a near fatal accident, and he was like proclaimed brain dead, but thankfully he survived. I mean, he's still going strong today, so it's fantastic.

And then because I was seeing it firsthand with my brother and his wife, and I was supporting them traveling to England, watching him rehabilitate. And at the same time, I had the pressure of my business nearly going bankrupt because of a bank, overextended bank loan. So I had this really strong pressure on me.

And I survived that. my nephew survived so within maybe six 12 months everything was going well i started having panic attacks it's like my body again my body reacts after a while right and so i went to lebanon my home country where i am from and to to sort of see a doctor there and the first thing doctor says that it's it's not a problem of the of the heart because i thought it was something to do with my heart he said really these are panic attacks you should see a psychiatrist it's more of a

mind problem and i was shocked like really me i'm strong i'm powerful i'm i can anyway to cut a long story short so it's like how did she prescribe antidepressants and xanax and and not knowing any better i started taking them but the funny thing is as soon as i started taking them while i was in in lebanon and then sort of a mini war just erupted while i was there so the airport was closed i was stuck all none of my family were there at that moment so it was really me and with some friends.

And I've titled that chapter in the time of war I found my peace. I found peace because the same thing I sort of stopped. I let go. I surrendered. I allowed my friends to take care. I didn't know anything

about Lebanon. I've never lived there in my life. So. They were taken from town to town sort of saying the best way how to to get out and i was being led i didn't have to make any decisions again it was as if my this egoic mind this controlling mind stopped and i was just surrendering and one day i walk into in one of the towns i walk into a tattoo shop and i i get a out of the blue i get a tattoo done on my right shoulder which is born to be free and the next day also.

Get a book called by leo tors sorry called the death of ivan illage and really that that's.

The book that really inspired my whole change because.

He ivan illage had left had lived a very good life he was successful he was going up the status ladder prestigious he started being a i think something in law becoming a judge later on and he's well well perceived by society but then he has a fall and he's he contracts an illness out of the fall and he lays down dying on his bed and he starts thinking to himself you know what all this accolades a prestige it i wasn't i wasn't really happy except i was living all my life wrong

so with that moment of awareness he thinks he says you know what i did live my life all wrong and he dies so i saw a lot of a lot of parallels and of course not as dramatic but a lot of parallels in my life because i felt like all this lavish lifestyle whether it's the rolex watches the lavish holidays the cards the homes i wasn't really happy i wasn't satisfied but it took me all that time to really understand that that point and took me several more years later to get out

of of this situation and i'm still in that but i'm i know how to balance both at least now but i knew from then that my values had changed you know my values are no more like getting up that success letter or the money symbols of course we need money i'm not against money money is something that we need all of us but why do we need three four homes why do we need five cars why do we need.

Like lavish holidays when we can enjoy something much more pure so that's when the journey of sort of finding my real self started and i decided that i was living wrong because of my wrong values, When I was reading your book, I was identifying with everything, even down to the tattoo. I remember when I turned 50, I got a tattoo on my ankle that motivates me daily. And then you're talking about your tattoo. And that was the name of your soccer school, wasn't it? Born to be Free. Right.

Yes, yes. And that's when I named it, the soccer school, which I tried to, yeah, as a foundation. It was called Born to be Free Foundation. Did you have a tattoo first? No, I had a tattoo first. And even when I was doing the tattoo, I didn't even want to do a tattoo. I didn't really like tattoos, but the guy was just looking at me like, do you want to do a tattoo? I have time. I'm very busy. I'm one of the best tattooers in Lebanon. So I said, you know what?

Get me an angel with Born to be Free. That was just awesome. I loved it. I was like laughing at that because there's so much in the book that I was going, yeah, I can see why that happened. And you're over across the world and I'm over here just relating to everything that you wrote about, especially the lavish lifestyle. Like, you know, why do we need all of it? You know, it's like, that's why I do the podcast and don't make money.

And people interview me on their shows sometimes and they say, so don't you want a brand? Don't you really want to take off with this? And I'm like, no, that's not what I want. They look at me like I'm crazy, but it's a give back. That's why I do it. It's not for me to make money. That's why I do my corporate stuff right now. Right. I mean, that's amazing. And I keep repeating, that's why you get up every day in the morning, right? So that helps you. Exactly.

Yeah, that has a purpose, and the purpose isn't the financial. It's all the other things that I get from practicing and studying and learning and trying to be better every day. So it's worth way more than money to me. Yeah, absolutely. So then your identity changed when you did that TED Talk. You changed for a less lavish lifestyle. And then I started to see now in your book, it starts getting really deep.

And I'm reading and I can't put the book down. And so you talk about how this inner journey is long and endless, but it's a human one. And I think that's why I'm so hooked on studying and learning and improving. It's that I see the results over time.

And and it's not like if you look back to where remember where I was when I was trying to show you my program that whatever software I use broke and I'm like pointing at the computer screen like we're we're miles ahead now from where we were back then, both of us. And so, you know, I could just spend the whole podcast talking about this, but you write about how the unexamined life is not worth living.

So could you maybe explain where your journey of this, of the mind began of knowing that you wanted to change and where are you now in this journey?

Yes i mean when i after being prescribed the the antidepressants i came back to gan and and i had one day i was thinking to myself like me of all people should not be on these and i but to be honest they did stop my panic attack so i needed them maybe but i vowed that i want to change like i want to get rid of them so within six months i think i i kicked them out and so i then started my real journey because i started reading voraciously like i would read every day as i

as i mentioned and all this knowledge and information was sort of feeding me it was i you know what i really sometimes wish i could go back to those days because it was so beautiful to read new books that give you sorry books that give you new information i feel like now a lot of the books are all very similar so you read one book then i don't know if i've read did somewhere before and so so the journey started then and i'll say and why it's an examined

life is not worth living because every day i'm examining myself i feel and and we're all under the this.

Perception or i was anyway that you know change happens like this like in the hollywood moment like you know what but but really change it doesn't really happen while when you said you started from your computer not knowing what to do and now with all your technology how many years is that it's probably 10 15 years down the line right so it's the same with change it's it's all very minimal change maybe like one percent change every day but,

For me to keep on doing it and examining my life is because I've taken that as my life purpose. That's what I want to do. I'm not interested in anything else right now. And it's endless when I say it's endless because it just doesn't end. And it's a human experience because I keep on going forward. I take one step forward and maybe two steps back.

And in my book, I've written so many times that even though I try to live to my new values, I always fall back on some of the old values that I had that don't serve me anymore. And I feel so, I've felt several times, I've felt guilty and sort of really terrible, like somebody like me who's become so self-aware and yet still falls to the same mistakes that he has all his life. But then again, I saw therapists, I saw coaches, and they all help.

And the message is always the same, that we need to be a bit more accepting, compassionate with ourselves, because we are human at the end of the day, right? That is true. That's the message that a guru gave me when he met with me. And he just said at the end of our interview, he said, I want you to be kinder to yourself. Wow. How does he know that? But, you know, because everything's measured and when you make mistakes, I'm like, how did I mess up on that?

And it shows. Everything shows on the outside. People can see that. If you can see it, then it shows on the outside. Just be kinder to ourselves is a good message for sure. It is. And it's easier said than done, as we both know, right? Exactly. We'll get off this and we'll be forgotten already. I forgot to ask that question. Oh, damn, right? That's so funny. That's so funny. Well, my next question, Mo, it's going to keep going deeper here.

So you write about craving creativity, presence, simplicity, vulnerability, and authenticity. And so these are all huge topics, deep. And I remember years ago, you asked me to think about what authenticity meant to me. And I had to look on my phone because I actually wrote pages and pages of notes on that. You're like, think about it. Let me know what you think. And we were going to do something with it, but I still had those notes.

And I think the idea, the main topic I wrote was living who I am by design. And I know when I'm doing the things that make me feel alive and when I'm my best self. But I wonder what it was about this topic of authenticity that drew you in to look at it in the first place. I think when I found out that I was sort of not expressing myself for years and years and years, I was muted in a way. I felt I was being inauthentic to the real me.

I was blinded by a formula that worked for my father and many of his friends, peers, and some of my friends as well.

And I followed it like a robot, you know, like this is how it's done. This is how you're going to be happy. And even though some of them are happy, happy till today, but that works for them.

So i felt i was being inauthentic and i was sort of very quiet and not alive not me and it wasn't till the stories i talked about when i started reflecting and really becoming more creative and i think the creativity let becoming more authentic and authentic simply means it doesn't just mean like you're being honest it means like you're being the real you right not a not a not an imitation of like there's 10,000 people the same as you everywhere it's we all have like

a song to sing we have something to do that's different to others and when you start reading and I started reading a lot of poetry like Rumi Khalil Gibran on creativity it's it's sort of awoken me to being the true self that I want to be and I wanted to write I wanted to express myself I wanted my message to be heard and to be seen. And I'm still, till today, I have, maybe sometimes I have a foot in the inauthentic world that I live in because of my human fallibility, I guess.

And I have another foot in my authenticity. So it's trying, the challenge for me, and I write that in my book in the last, it's sort of to fuse the two modes into one. And that's why I like to be very honest all the time. Some people think I'm cynical.

But i'm not gonna uh sort of blow my trumpet and say you know i'm i'm 100 authentic i found my way and it's not true because i know myself very well and i know a lot of us are the same way, i'm always fighting this battle so for me when i say authenticity it's a lifelong thing so i'm my goal is to be authentic when none of us can ever be 100 authentic but it's a goal it's something that it's driving me. It's a pathway, right?

Absolutely. Mo, your writing is so beautiful. Like I noticed that when you would send those newsletters on topics and I would read it and go into another world with your writing as deep.

You wrote that you want to express the depths of your soul and this allowed your muted voice to speak and it helped you to better connect with people around the world, like this is your aha moment here with your book. And then I wondered, well, how do we, once we identify what it is in our soul, like I know for me, it's this podcast, it's the reading, researching, and then teaching it.

I've got to have a teaching on it. If I was just reading, writing questions, putting it in notebooks and closing the drawer, I'm missing a I've got to get the teaching part out there. So, you know, what I wonder is how do people discover what that is in them? It took me all these years to know what it is that's expressing the depths of my soul. I mean, that's a very challenging question because many people will live all their lives without even asking that question.

That's the truth. They'll follow the certain formula, like how I was for 40 odd years, without asking a question. And if it wasn't maybe for Tolstoy's writing who awoke me in a certain circumstance, I wouldn't have asked that question. And. I think everything helps with the reading, even the self-help, even though it's gotten to be too diluted these days. But journeying and reflecting on yourself, like, is that really what I want to do?

Is this a life that I want to live? Is this the partner that I want to be with? I mean, these are all really strong questions. Or how will I be perceived when I am dead?

Who will remember me? And all these kind of questions, they're very cliche, but they're true because at the end you're defining the life that we want to live the intentional life that we want to design not the life that's going to be we're going to have or react to basically so and again i'm not saying that many people are going to reach there or many people are going to ask those questions many people have to some people i have some friends who don't want to ask any questions

and sometimes i'm i look at them and they're they're happy I don't know. I get confused. Is it me who overanalyzes or is it me who asks too many questions? But I feel happier doing that. So that's what I'm going to do. Well, you're just like me. Seriously, I ask like a million questions on topics. I relate to what you write in the book and what you're saying now. I just keep asking questions. What else?

And then when you ask those, there is so much in there. creativity, presence, simplicity, vulnerability, and authenticity. We could, you know, do a week on each one. But I want to talk about creativity because we did a deep dive into Jose Silva's work and I did it with connecting the neuroscience to creativity. And so I just wonder, what do you do to become more creative? How do you write such beautiful phrases? Where does it come from?

I mean for for me I mean if I wanted to answer one one word answer that would be reading, reading so many books so many writers but again it's not only that it's about doing I've I've done so many writing courses I even started I did an MFA I did it for one year but then I had to, change colleges and it didn't work out but I want to I want to finish my MFA in writing and I'm saying this at 56 years old so it's a passion that I I love

the right the writer's world and i'm still in touch with many writers so it's like. And I've said it so many times, I'll say it again, nothing makes you do something more than the environment around you, right? Or not do something. So if I marinate my mind with the writing world, with the writers, with the books, that's how I become more creative. That's how I become a better writer.

And I'm sure it's the same thing with whether you express yourself through yoga or through dancing, as I said earlier. So it's marinating your world, setting up your environment for that. And I've noticed that when I go through like months on end sometimes without reading, I went through several times, without reading, without connecting to readers, my creativity sort of stopped dead on the spot, at the spot, immediately stopped.

So it's amazing. But the minute I pick up a book, any of the books I have here, good literary books, I'm sort of inspired on my life, and I want to awaken my creativity.

Definitely i mentioned to you when i took some time not recording and even this past i haven't recorded since the end of september and i had to focus on other things so it was important that i took that time and but but i noticed that that it it is hard when you get out of the system you get out of the routine of of doing it and and you know it was it wasn't easy for me to create the questions for you i had to really think whereas when i was in the system of it it's easy it just flows and

i'm like i want to ask mo the right things like this is important and it just took some time and thought and more effort than usual because i i took it was four weeks that was focused on other things from here but but yeah it that that helps to just stay stay doing it and And when you take a break, get back to it, whatever it is that drives you.

I mean, that's it. And as you said, we need to... I would love to sort of read one part, just one paragraph, because it sort of confirms what we're just saying about creativity. And also, I find for me that solitude and nature really helped me as well. I don't know whether that works for you as well. But I was in a visit to Lebanon. That was the last time I saw my mother, actually. She passed away a short time afterwards, suddenly.

But so i'll just read this if i can read this small passage because that sort of explains what i'm talking about the creativity so i i was walking i walked down to a spot by some cedar trees and just sat in awe of them for a few minutes i could swear they were talking to me, inviting me to come closer and observe how simply they live i wondered if they were trying to tell me that they knew where they belonged in this mountain range in this lebanon and i would later journal,

we go through tough times in winter when it is cold and when we face strong and abrasive winds. We shed our leaves and our seeds and stand naked, yet we stand tall. We also go through the spring where we grow our seeds and leaves and we stand beautiful and tall. However, throughout the year we stand together, grateful, joyful, and accepting of what comes our way.

I share this passage and I get goosebumps every time I read it because it's through reading Khalil Gibran, and he was Lebanese and he lived with the cedar trees. And when I walked towards the cedar trees, I sat down. I felt that they were talking to me. And that passage that I wrote in the journal came directly from that. So that's the creativity I'm talking about, exactly that. So I'm in this place and I become like a vessel for it to talk, basically. It's not me who's writing.

I get that. I get that. Where I am right now, it's noticeably quiet. There's a stillness in the air, and I go in the backyard, and I hear nothing. Whereas where I was before, I could hear, I was right next to an Amazon distribution center, and I could hear the trucks always in the background. And I hear stillness now. It's the first time I've heard quiet at night in a very long time or in the air. And now I need to do what you're doing and listen for the messages to come through.

So that's, I love that, Mo. That's beautiful. Beautiful, right? Thank you. Thank you.

So, you know, just creativity was one of those words that you talked about. And then when I got to chapter four, unlocking the power of vulnerability, this is, you know, where I couldn't hold back my tears because I felt your emotion come through. And, you know, I know you're a strong business leader and to talk about your emotions the way you did, you know, made my eyes tear up. And so I just wonder, you know, can you share from a male point of view what

it's like on now not being afraid to show your emotional side and what this has done for you? Yeah. I mean, yes, and I'll sort of give you some context as well, where my age, 56, our generation, where I'm from, the Middle East, it's very hard to share your emotions, right? It's not something that comes readily by. And also, in general, whether it's the Middle East or the West or everywhere, for men, it's tough because we don't have friends.

Like women have good friends, right? You talk to each other. You're from when you're young maybe you talk with your mothers and it's always like you communicate very well we don't communicate very well for us it's taboo to share our emotions and it's it's sort of looked down upon like you're weak basically vulnerabilities i remember the one of the first when i wrote an article on vulnerability i got a call from one of my friends and he couldn't believe i was saying these

things on paper and and to him vulnerability was weakness and you don't admit your mistakes, right? But I learned the hard way. The more vulnerable I became, the more all these fantastic words we talked about, whether it's authenticity or whether it's connection. With my kids, I was a typical sort of unemotional father. Till the breakthrough I had with the running and the writing, I became more emotional.

I would hug more. I would express my feelings. I'm still not the huggy type, I'm not the type who goes around hugging people, but at least with my words I can express my emotions. At the beginning, my kids were surprised. I'm not going to deny that. And I'm still not very good in the public sort of showing affection. I don't know what the kids call it, something. Is it PDA? Public display of affection, yes. So I'm not good at that. But the main point is vulnerability is strength.

It really is because the more you show that you're vulnerable, two things happen.

First of all you sort of for yourself you you shed that tough armor that you have on you become much lighter it's like when i was running and all these tears were falling i was becoming lighter more i felt more vulnerable and so you shedding this armor you're becoming lighter automatically that this lightness attracts people around you who really want to help you because you if a person is vulnerable who talks about these issues automatically yes you got some people

you have some people who maybe sneer or make fun of fun of you but then you get some real people who, want to talk and in our position in my position as a as a man who's running his own business a ceo i don't have many friends it's very difficult to discuss business and ceo issues and some of the stuff even i've written in my book going through bankruptcy even towards the end the last few years, I've struggled and I've bounced back again.

A lot of my friends don't even know about this, but then other friends know about it because I've become more vulnerable and closer to them. So, and I think a lot of the work by Brené Brown, bringing it to the fore, right? Explaining to us in simple terms what vulnerability really means. Vulnerability doesn't mean like sharing your heart out like how a lot of people do it on Instagram or Snapchat.

As like i'm having a bad day please come and console me no it's it's uh you can have one person who you're vulnerable with and that alone is enough i think. It's interesting because you talked about it with your children. And, you know, for me over the years, I feel like with my kids, I was always the, my husband traveled a lot. So I was the one that was, you know, the homework enforcer. And so I felt like I had to be strong and not vulnerable.

And then over the years, I noticed my husband was way more vulnerable with them. And they would, I could tear up with this.

So they would. they would react to him more maybe right yeah and and i was like why can't i be like that because i have to be the strong one telling them you know you got to get your homework done you've got to stay focused and and then so when they were in their sports and they would get injured they would run straight to the one that was vulnerable with him my husband and i was like how do I be more like that?

And it wasn't a natural thing for me at all. It has taken so long. And it's only recent that my girls come to me because I'm trying so hard. And so taking the time, it's like when they have issues with homework, I'm like, well, don't forget, I taught science. You need some help with science, come to me. And now my daughter is taking, she's taking like an AP biology class, like it's college level. And she comes to me, she's like, you said you could help me with science,

right? And she comes with all these macromolecules. She's like, can you tell me, you know, which one's a protein? I'm like, what? I don't even know this. But I'm trying to be more vulnerable with my kids and make that connection that my husband just does so naturally. I don't know where he got it from, but it was that chapter, Mo, that hit me like a break. Yeah, yeah. I mean, some people are natural at it. We can't, it's hard to compare with them. But if you're like me, we need to work at it.

I think the beginning is hard, but then you see it's sort of, it's like a wall that breaks and it becomes much easier, right? How old are your kids? So 15 and 13 now. So they're the teenage age and they need their mom. But I'm the one that's always like the strict one with them. So I'm trying to say, you know, you have an issue, come to me, because dad's not always here, but when he is, go to him too.

We each have our own way, but I just would love to have that where you hug them and they know you're there. I haven't had that over the years. It's been a process.

Yeah and i mean you still have a few more years but and soon they'll be gone to college as well so that's gonna be i don't want you tearing up again but that's gonna be a tough time again yeah so that's yeah it's sure enjoy them now which is why when they they come and they have questions when you know you're busy in the middle of something like i've got to just do this one thing and press save and they come and they

have a question i put it down and and turn my focus because I know that the time is short. So, you know, the vulnerable chapter, I just sat there and thought, wow, this is me. I've got to learn to do this a little bit more in a way that you said that works, not in a way that, you know, just, it's a tough line, right? Of letting people know who you are without being too much. Exactly. And you've got to have the right people, I think. That's the most important thing.

Obviously apart from family i'm talking about friends because it's and you don't need too many people as well right and and also sometimes we overanalyze the whole concept of vulnerability and i think i i heard bernie brown saying some interview i love that part where she said that it's not about big issues all the time it's sometimes about somebody at work just putting their hands up and asking you know what i don't understand, This concept you're talking about, can somebody explain it to me?

That to me is strength because you're being vulnerable, you're being strong, and you actually show that you're focused at your work, not the other way around. Yeah, you could just be zoning out, right? Yes, exactly. Well, let's go on to another part of chapter four of vulnerability.

So you actually wrote this. We all need to have one thing at our core, a vehicle for going deep into our essence, exploring the mysterious places of our hearts, venturing into our past, and confronting painful moments stored away in our subconscious, which somehow, you said, in the writing process has bubbled to the surface. So, I just, this is another layer deeper. We talked about, you know, finding what's inside that drives us.

How do we more explore mysterious places in our hearts and bringing things to the surface that we need to work on without going to therapy? You know, this has been pretty therapeutic for me to know that I want to be more vulnerable with my kids.

How do we do this? i think the place to start like therapists would start with them but maybe with me i found journaling about it like my youth how when i was young how my parents handled me and analyzing both parents and and i think we're all marked by our parents whether whether they know it or not for me i understood my mom was not very emotional she was very aloof and that explains why maybe i I was sort of unemotional when I was growing up.

And the second part is also when we were younger and 10 years old, we had to leave Ghana, go to the UK. And it was such a shock for me. And when I wrote that down, I understood it. I understood because I started having sympathy for... I was 10 years old. I was trying to adjust to a country on my own. My mom didn't speak any English. She couldn't help me in anything. My siblings were older and busy with their lives. My father was busy saving his life and business in Ghana, so he wasn't with us.

So I was on my own, 10 years old. I was making decisions adults don't make. So of course I'm going to grow up. That's where I started reflecting the sympathy I had. I went deeper with my life. Of course I'm going to be controlling. Of course I'm going to be somebody who is not very emotional and very calculating because I've had to do that since

I was 10 years old to survive. and, surrounded in the cold English country coming from a very warm, naive, beautiful country like Ghana, going to somewhere more, the English are cold. You'll have somebody, I saw somebody on the train for six months. They never said hello to me and then they won't. So it was a big contrast to where I came from. So all these things sort of marked me. And that's the deeper layer I started unraveling. Like these things have marked me.

So I can sympathize with myself. Now I know what the issue is, and I can start sort of, you know what? I don't have to be the same way. I don't have to be cold. I can be a warmer person than that. I don't have to be aloof. I can be more vulnerable. I can be more... And sometimes it's just the awareness. When I wrote it down, for me anyway, when I wrote it down on paper. Of course I went through emotional... I would cry sometimes. I would cry when I was journaling a lot of the times.

So that was helpful. And the deeper layers started sort of deeper layers started unfolding. So really, we're like an iceberg. I love this. I don't know what this Bob Proctor said at once. It's like we're like an iceberg, right? Everything we see is at the tip, but the bottom is all of us, all of our upbringing, our thoughts, our feelings. Everything is there. So how are we going to bring that to the forefront and open it up? I remember he also said that when we cry or when tears come out,

that you're noticing a truth, that it's something to pay attention to. Absolutely. It's true. It's so true because every time I get emotional, it's the truth. Yeah, it is. It's interesting. It's interesting. Well, you know, we're coming close to the end of the hour here, and I just don't want to have missed anything with you, Mo.

You know, have I missed anything in my questions, and how would you summarize your mission with your work, and how can people work with you, reach you, just the whole thing? What would you say to kind of bring this all in together? Yeah. I mean, we could go on for another two hours for sure with a lot of these topics and concepts. But I would say we've covered the most important ones. But the most important, like my message has always been to examine the unexamined

self is not worth living. For me, that's the reality. And especially today, especially today, because it's even harder for our kids now with so much distraction going on.

The whether it's the media which is not real anymore whether it's a social media that it's it's ever taking them they don't have a second to rest and think about themselves or what they really want it's really up so that it's it's crazy how how things are progressing so fast and and i even look at myself now when i started doing all my readings i had.

It was more sort of quiet and had more time for myself than now even though i'm doing less things now so it's only going to be the noise outside that we need to cut out so for me the message has always been to try to cut out the noise from outside uh what your friends what society are doing doesn't necessarily mean that you have to do as well you have to sit down on your own understand who you really are and to become more intentional in designing

your life it's as simple as well it's beautiful mo mo um you know for people that want to find you your website i'll put links in the show notes and then what what's the other ways that they can reach your writing. Yeah i have a newsletter weekly newsletter on substack it's on my website as well so if you put that through that that's fine these are the two main areas i'm trying to avoid social media because it's so crowded and so busy.

And yeah, these are the two. And my books, obviously, which are on the website. I hope by the 12th of November, it will be launched on Amazon, on Kindle. Awesome. Okay, I'll make sure I have all the links for that. And Mo, I want to thank you so much for the support you gave me, first of all, all those years ago and believing in me when I was first starting out on my path of self-discovery. And I was looking for answers, and I'm so grateful we connected and then stayed connected over the years.

So thank you so much for joining me today and for all you've done. Thank you. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity for discussing my book and my thoughts. And hope we can reconnect sometime soon. Absolutely, Mo. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Some final thoughts? I knew this episode was important for me. As reading through Mo's book, I could see where I knew I had more work to do. As I'm working on ways to become more vulnerable with my family, it really didn't take much, and I can already see changes occurring.

Watch for The Midlife Shift to come out on Amazon around November 12th of 2024, And I highly recommend reading each chapter, take notes at what resonates with you, and then look for the action steps you can personally take to gain more self-awareness in your own journey of the mind. And I'll see you next episode as we continue back with our final chapters of Grant Bosnick's Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership. I'll see you next time.

If you're enjoying the neuroscience meets social and emotional learning podcast, please don't forget to subscribe so you'll stay up to date with our new episode. While you're there, please feel free to give us a review or a five-star rating as it helps others find us. For more information on our programs, books and tools for schools and the workplace, visit us at www.achieveit360.com.