Why Conventional Parenting Fails 2E Kids

A lot of those standard approaches are really like assuming that a child's behavior is within their control and that these are just kind of willful misbehaviors that could be shaped through things like reward charts or incentives or punishments. That's Dr. Danica Maddox, a gifted and two e parent coach. What do we miss when we to label overlapping traits like giftedness, autism, and demand avoidance. How can PDA-informed strategies support a wider range of anxious or demand-sensitive kids?

even without a formal diagnosis. And how can parents adapt their expectations to support their child's nervous system without feeling like they're just giving in? I'm Emily Kircher Morris. A conversation with Dr. Danica Maddox is up next on episode 312. Neurodiversity. There are so many moments with kids and teens that can leave adults

confused. The child who melts down right before school, or the student who stares at an assignment but can't start, or the teen who seems fine until one small demand tips everything over. Those are the moments when parents and educators and Often get handed the same tired advice. Be firmer, hold the line, build.

What if those moments are not asking for more pressure? What if they're asking for a different lens entirely? That's what we're going to explore in an upcoming workshop I'm presenting next week with Elizabeth Soder. The title of the talk is What Actually about how to better support kids and teens when they're overwhelmed, stuck, or struggling to access their skills. If that sounds like something that would be helpful, you can register using the link in the show notes.

Okay, Danica is with me right after this. On a recent episode of the first time. Yeah. Trauma. What are you really describing and how do you see that showing up in the Looking closely at the words. Is it school based? Interchangeably, but school induced trauma Defines causation. It is the school environment. I understand what I'm saying.

Intense trauma? you said you're looking at a neurodiverse population or I am, and they're more at risk for trauma and their nervous systems are more sensitive. And so yes, it is enough to say that when they're in this situation, it can create a trauma. Episode 282. Surfing waves of emotion through emotional regulation. Find it wherever you get your

Today I'm joined by Dr. Danica Maddox. Danica is a gifted and twice exceptional parent coach and the founder of the Gifted Learning Lab, where she helps. helps parents of intense, sensitive, gifted and two E kids move beyond one size fits all parenting advice and build family life in a way that actually fits their child's brain. She brings more than fifteen years of experience as an educator, therapist, researcher, assessment provider, parent coach.

All of these things and her work is grounded in the neurodiversity paradigm. Danica also brings lived experience to this conversation as someone who grew up gifted and later recognized her own twice exceptionality and is now raising a gifted So Danica, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be back to talk to you.

I want to start out and talk a little bit about parents who start out trying strategies that they've been told to support their child, like the standard parenting advice, like behavior charts and consequences, reward systems, all of that. And they're left feeling confused when none of that seems to help or it seems to sometimes even make things worse. Um, and I feel like that can be really true when we're talking about gifted or twice exceptional or otherwise neurodivergent kids.

Can you talk a little bit about why so much conventional parenting advice misses the mark for these kids and what parents might be misunderstanding when they assume that the problem is just consistency or follow through? Yeah, that's such a common experience that I hear from parents that come and work with me. I do think you're right that this is really common for parents with neurodivergent kids of any type.

And then especially there's like a certain flavor that can come when you have a really bright, like gifted two E kid and you're trying to I think a lot of parents are trying to do their best and follow advice from experts, right? Maybe they've been encouraged by their child's teacher or a therapist, a psychologist, um, or they've been doing lots of research and reading, listening to podcasts, right? And um learning, you know, a lot of standard parenting messages.

Like you said, a lot of these things don't work or seem to backfire, and I think at first What what parents often think is going wrong in my experience is they think they're not doing the strategies well enough. So I think a lot of parents think I'm not being consistent enough. You know, I tried to be consistent, but my kid got really overwhelmed. And so I I caved, you know, or parents will sometimes say to me, like, I haven't been doing a very good job, right? Or like,

For a while we did a really good job being consistent and then we stopped. And I think because of the standard messaging, parents think that it's their fault that they're not following through enough or that if they were following through,

It would be working somehow. But what I think is often missing, if I were gonna boil it down to like two big things that come to mind, or like, A lot of those standard approaches are f really like assuming that a child's behavior is within their control and that these are just kind of willful misbehaviors that could be

shaped through things like reward charts or incentives or punishments. And a lot of times I think what's actually going on is that, you know, Ross Green says like kids do well when they can. And so a lot of these kids just can't manage these situations or they're not behaving in the way their parents hope or whatever it is because they really can't in that moment.

And they just don't have the capacity for some reason. And a lot of times it's confusing or a lot of gifted two E kids struggle with things that seem really simple to others. Um So a parent may think, like, well of course they have the capacity to like brush their teeth or get ready for bed or like

put their shoes away when they come home, it seems really easy. But when kids push back, I think it's usually because there's a good reason or they're feeling overwhelmed. And these models that focus on just

Be consistent, offer a consequence or a reward, things that are trying to shape the kid's behavior. Assume that the kid, you know, could do it if they wanted. And a lot of these kids, they don't want to be difficult, right? They don't want to be causing um arguments with their parents or things like that, but they can't

access that ability in that moment because of the capa they don't have the capacity right then. Um, the second big thing I'm thinking about is a lot of kids who are gifted and twice exceptional seem to have a particularly strong drive for autonomy. And a lot of these standard parenting approaches really assume that parents are in a hierarchical position above their kids and just need to tell their kids what to do and be consistent.

And if they do that, the kid will follow through. Right. And I'll I think like one of the fun things about raising a gifted two-week kid, I'll sometimes say to parents is like, they really help us realize that like you truly can't control anyone else. And you know, the kids make it really clear. But a lot of parenting advice is built around this idea that parents can control their children if they just

you know, make it so unpleasant for their kids to misbehave that then the kids won't. But a lot of kids who value their autonomy more than Yeah, you know, some kids will say, like, well, I don't care if you punish or reward me, like I'm not gonna do it. Or um it's important to them to have a sense of control over themselves. And so that can really backfire um with these standard parenting approaches.

You used the phrase these are strategies that are based on the idea that you're assuming that a child's behavior is in their control. And I wanna kind of elaborate on that a little bit. There are a lot of people out there who would say, What do you mean that their behavior's not in their control? Yeah. I think that's kind of like an old school approach to a lot of things, but I see that with Parents were raised that way. We maybe get that feedback from grandparents, a lot of educators.

When you say it's not in their control, what do you really mean by that? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I really find the concept of capacity important. This is, or that's how I think about it. And If you think about the fact that we all have fluctuating capacity, right? Like all of us experience.

fluctuations in our capacity when we're busier or when we're sick or tired. We have less capacity, right? There are things that maybe we could do yesterday, but if we had a terrible night's sleep, we can't manage easily today. And so I think With our kids, especially with neurodivergent kids, they tend to have larger fluctuations in their capacity than other kids.

Um, and I think some things, like I said, that seem relatively simple can actually use up their capacity much more quickly than we might realize. When I explain capacity to parents that I work with in my coaching program, I also

really encourage them to think about what their kids have capacity for, not just to like literally do, like, okay, yes, literally you could take your child to gymnastics after school and they could do it. They could walk into the class and they could maybe complete the class. But what do they have the capacity to do without becoming emotionally overwhelmed, dysregulated, um, overly tired, right? Without like losing their ability to control their body, for example, or control their emotions.

So some people have kids who really don't have the capacity for after school activities that require them to follow directions, be in a loud place, you know, um, that type of thing. So the kid could do it and if they were really well rested, they could probably do the whole class, but they might

um have a meltdown in class, they might hit their peers, right? They may lie down on the floor and say, I don't wanna be here, or come out ten times and ask to go home. Right. And that kid is showing that they don't really have the capacity to manage gymnastics class right now. I guess it's like it's true that if you say a kid can't control their behavior, there's varying degrees of control at any time and we, you know, we don't know what's going on inside the kid's mind. But I really think

People want to do well and kids want to do well. And when they are having a behavior that seems challenging, right, or something that's concerning, it's usually because they're feeling kind of out of control and they're searching for a way to get back to okay. Right. Or they've lost their ability to regulate their body and suddenly sometimes kids will be out of control or if they have a meltdown.

you know, that they may be acting physically aggressive or crying or screaming in a way that they can't control in that moment. So sometimes it's more obvious, right? Like, and some parents will tell me that they can see sometimes like

Wow, it's like my kid's not even present in their body, or like they really have just lost control, you know, they're not there. With some kids it's much more subtle where they'll just start saying really mean things to people in the family, right? And similarly, it seems like they should be able to control that, but I think it's coming out because they've lost emotional or behavioral control. They're just you know, their past capacity. Yeah. And so it's coming out in this way.

I think adults forget that we also experience this. Yes. Like last night I had a very long day at the office. I was trying to do a million different things. And I got home and it was later in the evening. My daughter, who's 15, wanted some help putting together a resume so she can apply for a job this summer. I'm happy to do that, but.

It's bandwidth, whatever. And then by the time that was all done, my capacity was very low. And then when it's time to get the ten year old ready to go to bed, I have a shorter fuse. And I as an adult at least have some level of metacognition to kind of recognize what's going on there. But I don't know why we put this on kids so much sometimes, like Maybe because it feels like the things that they're stressed about aren't as stressful or I don't know, but we miss that parallel there. Yes.

I think some of it is that it's not a good thing. Parents are themselves under so much pressure by society that I think when parents see their kids snap at someone else, right? Like I mean, we snap at people too, like you're saying, when we're frustrated, right? And we don't mean to, and like it feels out of our control, where it's like, oh gosh, I wish I didn't say that.

Um, but when kids do it, I think parents are taught that like that's a reflection on you as a parent and you have really failed if your kid You can't let your kid act that way. You know, like there's a lot of pressure on parents to control their kids' behavior. And I think that clouds our lens a little bit, you know, that we can't just see the kids as.

We can't relate to them in the same way because we feel responsible or we feel like we've failed or like we have to step in and do something now. If our kid we can't let our kid talk like that. And I think that sense of pressure that parents feel, it's almost like a chorus of all the people who have ever given them parenting advice, you know, like in their mind judging them.

Um, and p I experience that and parents will tell me they imagine that too, you know, of like what would people think if they could see this right now and they saw my kid acting that way? Um, so I think that activates us even more and causes us to try to control our kids, which for a kid who finds it stressful to feel controlled can cause things to explode or get worse.

One of the things that can be really complicated for families is when we think about these identifications or these different labels which Benefits and drawbacks and sometimes easier than others to to figure out what that is. But when a child or a teen shows a mix of traits that could be viewed through several different lenses at once. Maybe it's giftedness. Maybe it's autism. Maybe it's that twice exceptional profile. Maybe it's demand avoidance that sometimes gets described as PDA traits.

I think that often also leaves parents wondering: like, what am I looking at? Yes, here. And so I'm wondering, how do you approach? that type of complexity. And what do you think people most often miss when they're trying to understand those overlapping profiles? That's a great question. I want to just validate for parents that it is really complex and it can be hard to tease those things apart, even for psychologists doing assessments, you know, and that sometimes pieces get missed.

Um, and in my experience a lot of the families I work with who know that their kid is bright and then they know that there's something else going on. Sometimes they have one or more other labels. Like a lot of kids are multi-exceptional, so that it can be pieces of multiple or all of those things going on. Um, so I just want to validate like no wonder it's hard sometimes to know what am I looking at, what's going on here, and how can I help.

Me and my kid have a better time. So, one way I think about it in my program is I have really tried to identify for parents. Um, I've created kind of like a long list of like these are common traits of intense gifted and twice exceptional kids, or like here's what gift, you know, common gifted traits, and then a lot of common twice exceptional traits. And really trying to describe them in terms of what you see versus the label, right? So to know, for example, that autistic and ADHD kids.

Right, and people in general both tend to be really absorbed in their interests and have an attention system that focuses really well on interests and that therefore finds it really hard to transition away from interests. And that can explain a lot of challenges that happen in the home, right? And really understanding what's happening there where a kid gets super absorbed in something they love and it's hard to then get them to go shower or come to dinner or even hear you when you call them.

Right. And that that could be because they're super involved in something. So I think learning about some of the labels that you know your kid has or learning about some of those traits can sometimes you know, in kind of more practical ways of what it looks like can help parents understand what's going on. Um, but I also encourage parents to really observe and experiment.

to try to tease apart what's actually causing something to be hard in the moment. So for example, a lot of gifted and two-we kids don't like doing their homework or there's like a lot of challenges around homework, resistance to homework, right? Um, but there can be so many different reasons why homework is hard. And so I encourage parents to try to observe and figure out what is it about doing homework that's hard for my kid, and then try to address that piece and make it easier and see if it

solves it, right? Or if not, okay, what's the next thing to try? So for some kids, it's just really hard to transition and sit down and do homework. For those kids, it might just be like, hey, I'm gonna put out a nice snack, I'll get your homework ready, I'll sit down with you and we'll look at it and make a plan first. Or maybe they need the parent in the room cooking dinner, body doubling, and that's all they need.

For some kids, it's more of a demand avoidance where it's like that is a control over my time that I cannot abide by, right? Or that I do not agree with. Um, it's a total threat to autonomy, to have work after school. And for that kid, no amount of transitioning support is going to make it easy for them to get started and do it on their own.

it might be more effective to talk to the teacher and get them excused from homework, right? Or or even if the teacher doesn't agree, some parents will be like, My child will not do homework and I am just signing off on that that like I'm not gonna bring it up for them.

you know, or there may be a way to help them have it done at school or something like that. Um so getting kind of nuanced about what actually is getting in the way here. And sometimes parents, you may not know until you experiment with different supports and see if they help or not. I'm I'm laughing as you're saying this because recently I mentioned my fifteen year old daughter just a minute ago, but she informed me that she does not do homework at home. She only does it the work at school.

At school. Which is fine because she's in high school and she has a study hall. Yes. I was like not to go off on a tangent, but She's gifted. She's ADHD. A little bit of that demand avoidance spilled in there. Definitely some anxiety and even some OCD. Like those are the things that I think really kind of describe how she shows up.

But she's figured out some ways to kind of be successful with some things. And like when she's at school and she has a study hall, that's when her meds are working. Yeah. And so I'm kind of like, I I get it. Yeah. It was a funny conversation because she's also old enough that I can kind of like tease her a little bit about like come on, Matt. And she recognizes that, but she's also kind of rigid about it. Like this is not what I do. Yeah. We talk about that demand avoidance.

And we know, so for anyone who's maybe not familiar, just in case, we talk about PDA, which is not public display of affection. It is pathological demand avoidance or pervasive demand for autonomy. Right. And I don't know how you conceptualize this. I really do kind of stick to conceptualizing it.

within the context of autism for that true PDA profile. But I do think we see demand avoidance in other areas. But I also think that maybe the driver behind that demand avoidance might be different based on someone's neurotype. So like for Maggie, I think it's executive functioning difficulties. I think it's like she has her things that she wants to do. How do you kind of contextualize that demand avoidance within those different labels?

That's a good question too. And I I think I've been I'm very interested in PDA and kind of the PDA profile. It's been like one of my you know, things I've done a deep dive into over the last several years. My own kid is you can't be diagnosed PDA, but when he had his assessment, it says, you know, he has a PDA profile. Um And I learned a lot about it from raising him. And I work with a lot of families who end up resonating with the PDA profile.

It is interesting. Just recently I did a training with PDA North America and they were saying that they have recently expanded their conceptualization to say that like PDA may not just be within the autism, you know, like you may not have to be autistic to be PDA and that there are I think just a number of folks who identify as ADHD in PDA, especially adults who can talk more about their own experiences and get more nuanced about that. So It's funny, yeah.

I'm a very conceptual, abstract person, but also in parenting I like to be very practical. So It's like from a practical point of view, what I'll say to parents is like if you try some of these PDA informed approaches and they work for your kid, they work for your kid, you know, and then there you go. Like you know, right. And you don't really even need to know necessarily if your kid

would meet, you know, meet all the different parts of a PDA profile. Um You know, before you go any further, I wanna kinda just mention something too and recognize you're right, like I see a lot of discourse about PDA being kind of separate from autism. I'm very open minded. But I'm also I think

in a lot of ways kind of conservative about getting too far ahead of the research with things, which is hard because there's not a lot of research about PDA. Right. Do I see it in some of my clients? Do I think it makes sense? For sure. Part of where I kind of sometimes get stuck is if we go into advocacy spaces and we talk about things that are too far outside of what is like the awareness that people have.

They end up discounting you. Like if I go into a five oh four meeting for a student and I start talking about PDA and no one in that meeting has ever heard of it before, they're less likely to give us any of the supports that we need. Right. Which is unfortunate. And so I want to circle back to where we were, but I do I would love to get your thoughts on that because I like I said I'm open minded, but that's just kind of where I am with it right now.

Yeah. You I mean you have a good point. And that gets into like what's practical and what's not. Something I really like about your work in a place where I really relate to you is like using research in understanding giftedness and twice exceptionality, right? And trying to be evidence-based. And I will say there's something about like having

raising a PDA kid, right? Where I'm like, wow, this explains your behavior in a way that nothing else does. And like everything my kid does makes sense in a PDA framework. And that has been wild for me because I'm like, there is no research to explain this, right? But it is a it is a pattern I can see and I experience it every day. Fits.

Yeah. And it's such a useful framework for me as a parent. So I think that's where I end up talking with parents too. And I think to be fair, I think a lot of the r the suggestions about what works for PDAs. It works for everyone else too. And actually I have a friend who says, like, she's like, the hill I will die on is that PDA needs our human needs.

They are not special weird needs. Right. They are human needs for connection, safety, like autonomy is, you know, within motivation research, like I, you know, and you know this research too. It's like Self determination theory of motivation, yes. Yes, right. It's like this is a core human need. Yes. And I my senses and some people are more attuned to their need for autonomy than others. And I do see I think so one of the reasons that a lot of gifted folks

have PDA qualities is that there's something about having the cognitive capacity to notice the ways that your autonomy is constrained that never crosses another child's mind. Right. So even at a very young age, I think kids who are extremely smart will just pick up on that more. And so it makes them, I think, more vulnerable to feeling controlled. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense.

It totally does. And let me I'm gonna build on it for a second because actually, so I don't have an autism diagnosis. I know that especially when I was young, I feel like I really had a lot of those traits. Yeah. But I also even from a personal standpoint resonate a lot with those things. And as you're talking about it, I'm thinking, okay, so how much is that ADHD? How much is giftedness? How much is something else? Like it could be a lot of these things. But the gifted part of it though is like

Where was I the other day? Oh, I was at an event where I was volunteering and I was like Oh. This could be so much better. Yes. Like I start getting in that problem solving mode and I'm like, well, why aren't we doing this? Or why aren't we doing this? Which then like leads me to that someone tells me to do something. I'm like, Well, that's dumb. Like there's a better way to I will not. You cannot make me.

But it but that's what it comes across as like as an adult I've realized like okay Just do it. Not my circus, not my monkeys, just do the job that you're asked to do. It's fine. That's right. But I think for kids though, I think that's part of when we see those really bright kids. This does not make logical sense. Yes. And until it makes sense, you cannot convince me that this is something I need to do.

Yes, yes. And that's where that assumption that parents should be the hierarchical experts, you know, or like the leaders of the house and all that, like falls apart because great kids are extremely good at being like, well wait, that doesn't make any sense. You know, why is that a rule? And the parents are like, What do you mean this is all this is the rule when I was a kid, this is the rule in other people's houses.

Well one one of the practical well, I don't know if it's practical, but one of the ideas I give parents to think about is like The more you can avoid arbitrary limits, the easier your life will be with your kids, right? And a lot of parenting advice and a lot of parenting norms are really just arbitrary limits on what kids are allowed to do or not. And it's actually a strength, I think, probably with any kids, but then it's almost essential when you've got a really bright, gifted, two E kid.

to be willing to be convinced of something else by your kid. Like if they push back on something and they're like, well, wait, that doesn't make sense, or that's not the best way to do it, or I want to do it this way. And you're like, well, you kinda have a point, then okay, let's go along with them, right? Why do we have to argue about this? But it it it on s one level that's really simple. And on another level, it's really like

I don't know, calling out and calling into question some basic assumptions of like, but that's just how things go, or that's what a good family does, or that's what a good parent does, you know, and being willing to do it differently. Yeah. Well, it goes back to what you said at the beginning about that fear about what other people are going to think, which I think a lot of parents have. It's like, how is this going to be perceived?

Thinking about it demand avoidance, thinking about power struggles, you know, uh regardless of a label, regardless of how all these things play out, we notice that neurodivergent people pick a label, sometimes are oppositional. Yes. Yeah, peer oppositional. You're oppos oppositional or strong willed, you've kind of alluded to a couple of the things, but when kids end up in power struggles with the adults around them, what do you think

the adults are missing when we interpret that as defiance, and then what? What's the next step? Yeah, yeah. I I see power struggles. I think if we interpret that as just defiance, we miss the opportunity to get curious. And connect with our kid and learn with them and kind of become a team. You know, so I really think if a kid is pushing back against something, there is some reason that they are doing that. And instead of just pushing back,

you know, right against them and being like, no, you have to, or because I said so, or that's what we're doing now. There's an opportunity to get really curious about what is it that's going on that's making this so hard or making it feel inaccessible. And when you have that curiosity, I think you can build a collaborative team effort. Like a lot of the parents who come to me will say, like, I'm in negotiations all day long. Like I'm so sick of negotiating with my kid or like

Do you have tricks to make them stop negotiating? You know it's like Part of the verbal ability, right? Like kids who have high verbal ability are much more likely to negotiate and debate about all those things. They have not attended law school yet, although you may think that they have. But they're like little lawyers. Yes. And I hear that all the time. They're so good at it. And it all it's only natural that they would use those abilities for that. And I think like

You know, instead of trying to turn it off, I try to channel it into collaboration. So, like, what is it that's getting in the way here? What is making it hard? So, like, for example, like if If you know, um, I have a free email mini course to help parents reduce power struggles and I use the example of toothbrushing throughout because it's a really common one where it's really hard or parents feel like they're in power struggles about having their kids brush their teeth.

And so if you can get curious about like, what is it exactly that's making it so hard to do this? You know, and you can learn from your kid and You know, so it for example, if it's for some kids it'll be like, Well, I'm just in the middle of something and I don't want to right now, you know. Um, for some kids it's like it hurts. Like I hate it. It's a sensory nightmare, you know, or the toothpaste is gross or

You know, there's all these different aspects of it that could make it hard, but then you can kind of be a team to problem solve. And then I think you're also You're teaching your kid that there's no one way to brush your teeth. You can brush your teeth in actually millions of different ways. You can do it. while you're um in the bath. You can do it, you know, while you're watching YouTube videos. You can do it lying down on the bed or in the sink, you know, hit the sink or whatever.

There's so many different tools you can use now too. Um, and helping them kind of problem solve when something feels tricky for themselves and they can use that for the rest of their life, you know, like

They may notice if I wait to brush teeth until right before bedtime, I'm way too tired. I should do it an hour earlier and it'll be easier. Or, you know, okay, let's experiment with this like super soft brush or the or one that goes in your mouth and just vibrates and it's done in thirty seconds or, you know, a different thing. So there are so many ways to be flexible about all of it. And I've had those conversations with clients before.

as you were just sitting there like brainstorming and throwing things out there, I'm like, oh, I don't know that I've ever thought of like doing it earlier, but you just don't even think about how flexible we can be. And just because

it's been done this way. I think something that's hard too is you have a routine that has been working for a while and then all of a sudden it's not working. Yeah. Well maybe you need to be flexible with it and just really shift it and and move things around or Find a new a new way to get that done.

Yeah, that is really hard as a parent, I know, right? Where it's sort of like, But this has always worked. Wait a second, like, what do you mean that's not working anymore? And sometimes it's just because your kid is older. I do hear a lot with gifted kids and kids who have a strong need for autonomy that

Things change a lot'cause there's also kind of like a boredom factor of like, well, but we've always done it that way and now it feels boring and constraining. Yeah. I think feeling permission is apparent to change it up or try something new can be whole.

I'm gonna throw this out there. I don't know what your opinions are about AI. I know a lot of people have a lot of opinions about AI. Oh sure. But if you're trying to brainstorm and you're out of ideas, you could throw that in there and it would just spit out a whole bunch.

A lot of the families I work with do find AI really helpful for that type of brainstorming. Yes, or thinking of other options or like I have a kid who hates these things and loves these things. Is there a way we could make bedtime easier or?

Yeah. I will say one other thing that I think sometimes can be helpful about that is that um then it's the AI saying it, it's not the parents saying it. Yes. Sometimes it which also then can like that demand avoidance, it kind of actually lowers it a little bit because there's no power hierarchy there. I mean unless you want to get very meta about it, but I don't know that we do. But Some kid might be a little bit more than a little bit. AI over. Don't be surprised. Yes, yes.

But anyway, I digress. So Danica, I'm so glad that we had this opportunity to have this conversation today. Um as we wrap up, I would love for you to just imagine you're talking to one of the parents of a strong willed, twice exceptional child and they're just trying to figure out how to best support their child, but they're so worried that they are doing it wrong. If you were talking to them, what would you say? What what is it that you would really want them to hear?

Mm. I want them to feel like more permission and liberation to be able to individualize their family life and their parenting for them and their kid. Like they and their ki you know. They are an expert on their kid, their kid is the r you know, is a real expert on their kid, and that together they make an amazing team to be able to like figure out what's gonna work for them. Um and just to I want them to have

like the sense of permission to experiment and think outside the box. Um, it can be tiring and scary, right?'Cause it's a lot more work than um just following the standard parenting advice and having it work for you. But I think it's like can be pretty amazing to like feel that ability to do things in your own way. We will put Danica's course on reducing power. Thanks for having me.

I keep thinking about how often we use character-based language to describe kids when what we're really seeing is stress and overwhelm or a nervous system response. Words like strong-willed, opposite, Controlling, manipulative, those labels can take a really complex experience and flatten it into something that's intentional or defiant. And once that happens,

becomes so much harder to respond with curiosity. What I appreciated about this conversation is that it pushes us to look underneath the behavior instead of assuming we already know what it means. Because when we shift from judgment about interpretation, we often find that the child's not trying to make things hard, they're having a hard time, in ways that may not be obvious at first glance. I'm Emily Kircher Morris. I'll see you next time on the Neurodiversity Podcast.

Thank you again to Danica Maddox. We appreciate her time and her thoughts. If you'd like more information about her or to grab her free course on reducing power struggles, I've placed all of those links. In the show notes for this episode. Also, if you're listening on a platform that offers you the ability to write a review, we would love if you'd take a moment to do that.

One more thing, if you get to us through YouTube or YouTube music, please subscribe and turn on your notifications so you know when a new episode is available. Our host is Emily Kircher Morris. Corey Orik is our office coordinator and assistant. Hannah Hadike Swift is the program coordinator, Andy Kahn is our chief clinical advisor. Amanda Morin is our hub co-facilitator, and I'm the executive producer Dave Morris. For all of us, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.

This is a service of the Neurodiversity Alliance.