Accepting and Embracing Your Autistic Self

we've all got different skills and weaknesses and so, you know, it's just that ours are a little bit less common than those in the general population, which is really awesome. We just need to be supported so that we can be the best versions of ourselves, whatever that is. And you know, we don't have to be superheroes to be worthy of respect, dignity, and support. Coming up today, Rebecca Defis, UK based advisory teacher, and Lyric Rivera, neurodiversity advocate and consultant.

They're co-authors of Autism Identity and Me. When we talk about autism, are we describing a diagnosis or an identity? What's the difference between language that sounds positive and language that truly affirms a child's lived experience? And how do we help autistic kids understand themselves in a world that isn't always built with them in mind, without teaching them they're the problem? I'm Emily Kircher Morris. A conversation with Rebecca Duffus and Lyric Rivera is ahead on episode 307.

You are eight. Neurodiversity If you're a clinician working with families, you've probably seen this moment. You're working with a young neurodivergent person, either for therapy or an evaluation, and everyone's focused on understanding the child, and somewhere in that process a parent says, wait, that sounds like me.

Suddenly the conversation isn't just about the child anymore. It becomes the beginning of a parent's identity exploration. Most of us were never explicitly trained on how to navigate that layered dynamic in a neurodiversity-affirming way. That's the topic of our next live 90-minute CE training with Dr. Amy Marshall called Inherited Neurodivergence: Supporting Parents' Identity Journeys.

It's designed specifically for mental health providers and focuses on recognizing inherited neurodivergence, understanding common emotional responses in parents. and supporting identity development while staying within ethical scope. The live training is Friday, March 6th from 2 to 3 30 Eastern, and it's approved for continuing education through the American Psychological Association and the National Board of Certified Counselors.

If you're listening after the live date, you can still register for the self-study version on our website. Head on over to neurodiversity.university for the info, or you can find all the details in the show notes. Okay, Lyric Rivera and Rebecca Duffes are here in a minute. When I found the Neurodiversity Podcast, I was really kind of So honestly I wanted to find like a tribe.

This podcast brings on guests who seem to be moving neurodiversity more into the mainstream. And Emily Kircher Morris is amazing. I feel like She's talking straight to me. Her knowledge about people is so refreshing. And that's what the Neurodiversity is. Cast it. Doing. Helping them understand.

Today I'm joined by Rebecca Duffes and Lyric Rivera. Rebecca is a UK-based advisory teacher with a background in psychology and a master's in autism and education, and Lyric is a leading neurodiversity advocate, consultant, and author. Together, they're the co authors of Autism, Identity, and Me, a practical workbook to empower autistic children and young people ages 10 plus, a hands on identity affirming resource that supports.

To kids and teens in understanding themselves and being understood by others. Between Rebecca's work in education and Lyric's advocacy and systems-level. Consulting. They bring a really powerful blend of practical insight, lived experience, and big picture thinking about inclusion and identity. Rebecca and Lyric, I'm so glad that you're here. Thanks for talking to me today. Thanks for having us. It's a real pleasure.

I want to start off and think about how we talk about autism because there's often this tension between understanding it as a clinical diagnosis and understanding it as part of someone's identity. I know for a lot of autistic adults, autism isn't just something that they have, it's something they are. And I'm curious about how you think about that distinction. What does it really mean to frame autism as an identity rather than just

A label and a chart. And why does that shift really matter so much, especially for kids who are still really trying to figure out who they are? You know, as as being autistic, it i it is definitely complicated in the fact that it is a medical diagnosis and so there's a medical criteria which in my opinion as an autistic person, now that I've known I'm autistic for almost ten years now, and also not knowing I was autistic for the first twenty nine years of my life

But always being autistic. I've got kind of some different thoughts on this, uh, because, you know, I'm I'm gonna be forty in a couple of years. So I'm an adult and I've had a lifespan where, you know, being autistic has been as a whole is neither good nor bad, but it has been both like a blessing and a curse in many ways throughout my life. It is both my strengths and my weaknesses and, you know, sometimes even like looking at how autism is described from a medical perspective

it is only described as weaknesses, it is only described as struggles. It is only described as pathology. Take uh, you know, I'm just from my personal lived experience and my profile of autism because it's different for every one of us. Just the the hyper focus, you know, which is like that that

fixative, you know, that they they describe it in all these negative ways, uh, where, you know, in the medical book it is only something negative. It is only like obsessing and not being able to let things go, which can be really true and it can actually be

uh hindrance and has been a hindrance in my life at different points in my life. If I'm obsessed over something that I can't solve or I can't fix or it's just not helpful to be ruminating over, like it can be you know, a great weakness to me, but also, you know, focusing on things so much, even if they're good, to where I am neglecting my body and my self care and my relationships and then

all of those things like that can be very difficult, but at the same time, it is inherently tied to my biggest strength. So like that focus, that obsessive tendency, that not being able to let things go is why I I write books because I can't let things go. It's why I've been obsessed with autism and neurodiversity for the past nine years since I was diagnosed autistic.

if I can apply that level of focus to something I can actually work towards and a problem I can solve or uh, you know, something that is more tangible in a way versus just something that's just stressing me out, a problem I can't do anything to fix. it can be and is my greatest strength. And so, you know, we we don't see in the medical definitions because you have to literally be struggling in a clinically significant way to even receive an autism diagnosis.

we don't see the picture of what an autistic person who's thriving can look like or what autistic success can look like. Uh and so like that's kind of the problem where it's like it is definitely part of our identity. It's who we are. But then we see the way society paints it as only something bad, only in the negative.

Uh and so, you know, that that's kind of the the hard part and where there's a conflict there, at least in my experience. And then, you know, for young people, uh, it can be even harder. Uh I had to figure out what being autistic meant to me and my identity in my thirties. Because I was diagnosed when I was twenty nine. But I think a lot about how These are things I wish I could have known when I was growing up.

Because I'm growing up all over again and like having a second uh childhood or something. I don't know. Like it's like I have to like learn who I am all over again because I was taught I was someone I wasn't and I was supposed to be like everyone else.

And so with you know, young people, it's just so important for autistic young people to know that they can be authentically themselves and not have to be who someone else says they can be. So they don't have to go back and do this healing work that a lot of us autistic adults

are left doing when we're finding out we're autistic late in life because it's like going back and relearning, you know, who we were on our foundational level. And, you know, I had a I I have a lot of identity based trauma as an adult. not knowing my true self, not knowing how to even listen to like my inner compass, my inner voices, to know what I need and what I want. It was always what was applied to me and what's expected of me.

Uh and so, you know, that not leaving kids vulnerable in that way is just so really important and, you know, I think why this book spoke to me when Rebecca brought it to me to ask if I wanted to come on board because Rebecca is actually kind of the mastermind behind this this children's workbook and so uh I saw the the first version of it, the UK version, and I was instantly in love. Uh so I don't know if Rebecca has anything they wanna add to that.

I mean I think I I constantly have this discussion slash battle um with medical professionals um in terms of that whole you know, all the medical language around the diagnostic process and everything. Um, and it's really tricky because I know a lot of medical professionals that are really um kind of forward thinking, but they're still bound by the that sort of, you know, all the diagnostic manuals and the words they're supposed to use and things.

I think from an identity perspective it's really tricky because I was thinking of some of the things you said there and I remember meeting a friend recently whose daughter came up to me she's probably only about eight and she said oh I'm autistic I think I'd said something about my work And um and so I was like, Oh, congratulations because I wanted it to be a positive thing and not just like, ooh'cause I'm sure she said a lot of that, mm, what do I say? Oh kind of before.

But then later on I was like, Mm, was that really the right response? Because as you've said, that it's who she is, it's not really to be congratulated, it's just the diversity of life. Um, but I knew that I kinda needed to balance out a lot of probably the negative information she had had from society. Um and I think that's the thing, uh like you were saying, with a lot of potentially um teenagers who

haven't found out that aspect of their identity until later in life. Which when you think about it, you know, there's not that many aspects of your identity that you may never find out about. Like it's it's a strange concept when you think of it like that.

And I think if you haven't had that opportunity to understand yourself, some some young people will then explore other sort of aspects of identity which might be potentially, you know, not the best for for them or kind of sort of going down you know, it's obviously all the masking, but going down different avenues to try and feel that there's a a fit somewhere and and often that really understanding that actually it's being autistic is that big part of your identity can make that sort of

Mae'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Yeah, provide that as well. It's so complicated. So, you know, I'm a clinician but I'm neurodivergent and it is this weird balancing act between figuring out where that conversation is and how to recognize like these are the systems that we have to work within as far as getting support needs met in various settings. On the one hand, it's easy to talk to an individual about what that identity means.

But then on the bigger picture sometimes it gets tricky. Yeah.

We talk about strengths based supports and we talk about using positive language. You know, we want to focus on those strengths. We want to avoid negativity and try to reframe ways in an upbeat way, but sometimes that positive language

is not necessarily the same as affirming language. And I don't always know that people recognize that. I'd love to hear from your perspective. Like what's the difference between language that really sounds positive on the surface versus language that affirms lived experience. Yeah, I mean for me, uh I guess it's the sort of authenticity of it and maybe the specifics of what it's actually pointing out. So that kind of general like

There's the old things about toxic positivity, isn't there? And just kind of like just keep going, you can do this and actually it might be like, Well, I can't do this unless I have these supports that I need, and then maybe we can work together to see if we can do it. And so that kind of like just get on with it really.

like in some maybe positive language, making it sort of seem like it's nice. I mean it's not. Um, versus I guess uh whether it's in the workplace or in education settings or families, sitting down and actually trying to understand from different perspective or, you know, whether even if two people in the same family are both autistic, you're gonna have different perspectives on that.

trying to really understand. I mean, I have a lot of conversations about identity with young people and I had one um just the other day where young person and he had siblings who are also autistic, but there's three um

I guess lenses of autism just on one example of like things to do with sound in the household were very different. So I guess for the parents it's then really trying to unpick, um together or one to one with those children, what does that actually mean for you and what can we do to make a real kind of life improvement or adjustment that is gonna help you in a in a genuine way, I guess?

And then I'll add to that too, uh, because there is this temptation really to, you know, go from what a lot of people see as like negative dehumanizing language.

to do a really big swing in the opposite direction where it's dehumanizing in the like you see the superpowers, which I understand where that comes from entirely because, you know, autistic people, we have been uh just kind of pooped upon by the world, so to speak, because and just the way we're spoken about and the way like the stereotypes have

just really dehumanized us. We like we have this knee jerk reaction to kind of flip it in the other way to where it's like, Oh, we have superpowers and there's this tendency to imply that autistic people are only like worthwhile as human beings if we're useful in some way, uh or if we're doing something superhuman.

Which is really sad because we're humans. We're we're just people. Like we're we're not uh superhuman or anything. Uh even though you have some of us have really awesome strengths and really awesome skills. uh looking at it from like the neurodiversity perspective, it's we've all got different skills and weaknesses. And so, you know, it's just that ours are a little bit less common than those in the general population, which is really awesome.

We just need to be supported so that we can be the best versions of ourselves, whatever that is. And you know, we don't have to be superheroes to be worthy of respect, dignity, and support. I think it's part of this recognizing the both and nature of it. Like recognizing like it's not always black and white. There's a gray area where something that might be a strength in one environment might be really difficult in another. And

I think that kind of brings it back to this piece about recognizing how in so many situations it's often an environmental factor that's the disabling piece. Not always, but often.

And how do autistic people, how do neurodivergent people fit in those places that allow their strengths to come through, but also support those areas of difficulty, which I think is just it's complicated for parents, for educators, for clinicians to kind of balance that, especially for kids who maybe are just learning to self-advocate. And now for me, parents will often say to me, How do I know if this is the autism

should I be treating this child differently from their sibling? And then we'll be saying, Well, uh you know, they're also a a three year old toddler or a fourteen year old teenager and obviously there's all those other kind of identity layers as well. And I think I mean the self advocacy work is is so important and one I think that has been missed a lot, certainly in the UK.

or maybe not missed, but it it kinda hasn't been done to the depth that has been needed. There's lots of kind of supports for the practical things like housing and but actually advocating for the specifics that you need in the workplace, for example. Because I think at the moment a lot of it i it is shifting slightly.

for the focus to be on the workplace, to be more autism friendly and and schools to be more inclusive, but I think a lot of it still does come down to the parents and the individual advocating for themselves. And that can be really tricky'cause sometimes you don't know what you need until you didn't have it and then you realised, Oh, I actually I c could have done with that. Um so so yeah, so there's still a lot of pressure which is is

So I hear from a lot of autistic adults who are diagnosed later in life there's this mix of relief and grief, very complicated feelings about finally having the language that makes sense of those experiences, but also just sadness about all of those years they've spent feeling like They were just like bad at life or somehow failing. What are some of the most common emotional themes that you've noticed?

That show up for adults who are diagnosed late and and how can we support them as they begin to reinterpret their past through this new lens? Yeah, I will say that when I was diagnosed, uh, you know, just a few months shy of my thirtieth birthday, I went through a full

range of emotions. There was just grief and sadness about the years I went throughout my life not knowing the truth about myself. There was a lot of anger because looking back, I could see that a lot of times I was blamed for struggling or just that I got in trouble uh or was just literally like punished or

Uh just a lot of bad things that had happened to me throughout my life were related to autistic traits that nobody knew I had that people were trying to basically just mold and shape out of me that are still here. I just went through even denial for a while. Like there was a period where I was like going through the internet

uh trying to find some kind of evidence that I had been misdiagnosed, that it was wrong. And but you know, the more autistic voices I found in red, the more I was convinced that it was correct. I was trying to like disprove it, but every time I read an autistic person sharing something. It was like that song Killing Me Softly.

And it was just like, Okay, okay. And so th there's a lot to go through there. Uh you know, and the anger, the sadness and also the validation. So it was just like this cocktail of emotions just kind of cycling through and out and just trying to really more, né? just all the could have bends, right? And and it's really hard. And then, you know, after all of that, it's like going through and rebuilding myself because the the trauma of not knowing and constantly being invalidated by other people.

telling me I didn't need things I tried to say I needed or when I was uncomfortable, you're too sensitive. You're you're making a big deal of nothing. Nobody else is asking for this, all of these things. Or if you just try harder harder, all the things I'd internalized throughout my life about myself that I basically wasn't enough, didn't deserve to have my needs met, shouldn't speak up for myself, shouldn't make waves.

uh, you know, my my needs were an inconvenience and other people's needs were uh ahead of my own. Like that was the mindset I was in nine years ago when I was newly diagnosed. And so it's a big place of like going through all those feelings.

then like learning what it really means to you that to be autistic because it's not the same for every autistic person. And then a lot of us, like we were discouraged from advocating up for ourselves. So we have to like learn to advocate and learn to have boundaries and learn to speak up. It's a really uh tricky, hard place to be in and you know a lot of us are kind of on our own with it. We don't have a lot of people. What the hell?

Uh which which is why Rebecca and I are working on the adult version of this now because we were we were like not even done with the kids one. I was like, Rebecca We need to make an adult version and then when we release the kids one, adults were buying the the kids book to use for themselves because they were like, We need this. We need to like know who we are. We need to know our needs and we need to feel

safe speaking up for those needs and know how to advocate to get our needs met. And and that can be like such a big success and failure point for for a lot of us. Rebecca, I don't know, do you work with a lot of adults or is it mostly just young people, right?

It's kind of like up to twenty five, um, in the the field that I work. Um often it's more up to up to eighteen, like sort of school age here. Um But I mean we've had conversations before about um a lot of my friends are discovering that they're autistic or ADHD or you know we've had conversations about, you know, you find that the types of people that you maybe get on well with like, oh, we've all got some similar traits.

Um and but I think part of that that that we've kind of I've I've talked about with different friends and reflected on is then if you do kind of either if you seek out an assessment or uh a lot of people I work with as well have gone through the assessment themselves because their child has been diagnosed, um and they've thought, Well actually I've seen a lot of this uh in my own childhood or currently

But then having a conversation with the the generation above, um, who were in quite a different sort of education system and society and everything really, that can sometimes be quite tricky because it's that whole thing of, well, you're almost having an argument about

your like against your child self. And like I know parents who can say, Well, I you did this and everything was fine and there's no problem with that and you're like, Well So I know of yeah, quite a few people who've explored that side side of things can be trickier.

It's also fascinating, I think, and this is a personal reflection, but also something I've learned from my clients. So I was diagnosed with ADHD in nineteen ninety one, before Asperger's when we had that diagnosis, was even in the DSM. So I was never assessed for even Aspergs, which I always go, like, if I were a kid now, we would have looked. We would have like wanted to at least like rule that out.

But also my trajectory and that internalized ableism, even though I had that label, I went almost two decades really from like my late teens to like early thirties. where I was like, No, I don't think that's accurate. I kinda like what you were saying, Lyric. Like I don't I don't think that's really right. I think, you know, whatever.

And actually once I finally came to terms with it, like so many adults, when my son was diagnosed as ADHD, I'm like, you know, maybe I should look at this again a little more closely. And there is still just this reconfiguring of what that means, you know. And so I always kind of say, I'm like, I'm ADHD forward with a lot of autistic traits. Like I don't know that I ever quite fit. It's a lot of things there. But knowing that for myself

there's still a pull, right? And I've known I've known that since I was a kid. But part of that is just about the zeitgeist and how the conversation has changed so much in the last five to ten years, it also makes me, I think, hopeful for how things will go towards the future. I'm hopeful. But also ADHD's confusing. I don't know, like

I I go back and forth with on like what's ADHD? What's trauma? What's disassociation? And then like when I started to do the trauma work, just like, do I still have ADHD? And then I had to like work on a project that is like things that my brain doesn't want to do. And I'm like, oh yes, definitely still have to do that. He's still ADHD. Not just the trauma. Having to do all of these spreadsheets and organization and things that I've been doing the past week oh

So I dare say for sure. It's definitely less uh less chaotic in my life now that I've done the trauma work, but you know neurodivergence is interesting like that because they're all these layers that can inter intermingle with one another and just make life a little bit more confusing and complicated, right? And also because so much of it is been defined by people observing from the outside in, not the inside out. Right. So it's it's just kind of

Like hard to know, especially when you have multiple neurotypes, which most autistic people do. Yeah. That's complicated. Yeah, I think I I'm hopeful as well that I mean I think that probably the understanding of neurodiversity will change a lot in the next mm ten years, I hope. Um'cause like as Lyric was saying, there's there's all those different layers and intertwining. Um so I imagine that our understanding and language will probably shift and hopefully that We'll make things clearer and

help people to understand maybe. I'm passionate about language and and kind of the impact of language because I just think i if you s just say one little word like can just really stay with people or it does with me anyway. And um that can kind of really impact somebody's perception of things. But I think that uh the sort of mainstream media and mainstream society is much more

The awareness is there now and it's building on the understanding. Um, it's not just kind of, Oh yeah, I know s somebody's aunties, cousin's brother who's autistic. There is a little bit more uh uh in the basic knowledge bank, I think. You know, we're in this time where, um, there's a lot more screening in the young people. So people are being identified earlier and also like that's awakening a lot of parents who are learning that that how what that means for themselves.

And I think that's something we haven't had in the past so much where it's like autistic people who know they're autistic, raising autistic and neurodivergent young people and being aware of that. Mm, that's exciting to me. And I think that's a big part of it too.

All of the talk about language I think is so important because uh the communication piece and just helping people you know, especially kids know and understand and feel good about who they are. I I feel like there's also this tight rope that those of us who are supporting young neurodivergent people, like we we walk this line between helping them feel good about who they are, but also preparing them for a world that's not always accommodating.

What advice do you have about how to talk realistically with kids about things like bias and misunderstanding or burnout without making them feel discouraged or unsafe? What does that look like as we try to equip kids rather than just protect them from those hard truths? Yeah, I I think that there's kind of two aspects. There's the side where it not feeling like a complete burden on the person the whole time. So it being that kind of I guess Choosing your...

battles is the wrong phrase, but you know, I I think i in any area like that where you you feel really strongly about something, you sometimes feel like you need to educate everybody. And um I think it's kind of giving yourself permission sometimes to actually

you don't necessarily have to in all those situations. Sometimes it's just kind of about survival and getting through, certainly as parents. Conversely it's it's also knowing sometimes having a kind of a script for how to present that to somebody so in the workbook we talk about a kind of an autism identity statement so I think it really helps to have kind of in your back pocket or saved on your phone

more kind of practically, um, a set phrase that you go to for people. So if somebody is kinda like, Oh, you're autistic, what does that mean? You can say, you know, being autistic means I might find some this thing a bit tricky and I'm really good at this thing. Things like eye contact, for example.

And that's one that often comes up with schools and lots of schools will have posters saying good looking and sitting with your legs crossed and all of that. I think it's really important for young people to be able to kind of identify a situation where actually it might be quite important to

want to impress somebody like a job interview or, you know, interview for college and things, to be able to go in and say, I'm actually going to be able to listen to you much better if I don't look at you. So I'm not going to look and, you know, just listen kind of thing.

Um,'cause if you can if if you know those kind of key things that people might be wanting and you can get in there first and just say, actually, this is how my brain works, deal with it kind of thing that is really powerful for for both sides, I think.

Yeah, I'll I'll agree with all of that too. You know, and the other thing that I think would have been really just so helpful to know as a young person growing up is that there was nothing wrong with my brain and that there were just a lot of misunderstandings happening because people tend to assume that everyone has a brain that's just like their brain and they tend to assume

that when they're talking to someone, the person they're speaking with is interpreting the information the same way, the person is experiencing the world around them the same way. And having an understanding of neurodiversity as a young person and what that means. And maybe even some basic language to explain that to other people, or even just knowing. Yeah. some people

are kind of jerks. And that's not a reflection of me because unfortunately a lot of autistic kids we get picked on a lot. I got bullied so mercilessly by other kids. And when I tried to go get help from my teacher, you know, none of us knew we I was autistic. mind you, but I went to get help from my teacher and my teacher's like, Well if you would stop acting so weird, the other kids wouldn't

pick on you. And so it was like it's your fault you're being weird. And I was like, What are they talking about being weird? I had no frame of reference for what weird was, why the other kids

thought I was weird, although now I'm a proud weirdo. Love it. Let my weirdo flag fly so all the other delightful, wonderful weirdos can find me. But like having that frame of reference and having that understanding that, you know, these kids might not understand you. That is not your fault that they don't have the the depth of knowledge to understand you and your experiences and you know, people who are mean have stuff going on with them and it's not about you.

uh because I really took everything very personally. For most of my life, actually, even even into adulthood, I I took a lot of things very personally sometimes. And it it really hurts'cause, you know, I was a sensitive young human. A lot of young people are are pretty sensitive, and that sensitivity should be, you know, a strength. It's a beautiful thing, not something you're sh supposed to be ashamed of.

Yeah. I often talk to students about school being quite a strange place really and it kinda gets easier the further away you get from that because generally in life you you you sort of channel yourself into your interests and you end up with people yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n.

who you could all be completely different. You're shoved together for most of the day. It's and it's not really anything like anything else you're gonna have in life for most of us. Unless you're a teacher, obviously.

I I wanted to ask just real quickly, since I've got both of you here, some of the differences between the UK and the US and how y autism is discussed specifically. Like one of the things I talk about how language shifts how we think. Like

I know in the UK it's typically referred to as autism spectrum condition as opposed to in the US where it's autism spectrum disorder. But what are some of the other like differences, whether it's how systems are designed or how people are expected to adapt, just through your conversations and work, like what have you noticed are some of those things that stand out?

I'll go first because I feel like the m Rebecca will probably have more to say about this than I would do because Rebecca's in the UK and in my opinion Since I was diagnosed nine years ago, the UK has been very ahead of us. And you know, and in the United States we really were behind because we had literal companies marketing services and solutions to autism as if autism was this problem that had to be solved. It was this scary thing that was gonna destroy and tear apart families.

Uh it was something to contain and and control and mold into something, you know, less disruptive. That's kind of what autism was framed as throughout my lifetime. And I grew up through the eight like late eighties and nineties. And so that's not much further than we've gone in certain communities here in the United States. There are still a lot of people who have that mindset about autism and autistic people.

uh and there are people in power once again pushing that mindset in the United States. And so it's really grim here, uh, because, you know, we were just starting to in the last, you know, few years see like pushes for schools to become more neuro affirming and uh things like that. And now we've got the, you know, disability programs and protections just being rolled back.

which is just really hard to see. Um, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. That accessibility is in there, you know, is literally under attack on a lot of levels. uh and you know, autistic people. There have been all of these new like, what's causing autism things popping up. And so that's really

Sad to see in the United States. Uh, sometimes when I wanna have a little hope. I look at what autism looks like in the UK to say like maybe we'll start moving in that direction one day. Yeah. But even then there are parts in the world where it is even worse than the United States. I you know, I wanna make sure That's really transparent. Um but i in the UK things are A lot better. I'm sure there's still some things that could be worked, but uh Rebecca, would you love to speak to that?

Sometimes you forget to look at how far things have progressed and obviously it's it would love be lovely to be a an overnight, you know, transformation. But obviously change take takes a long time. Um but it is coming, hopefully. Um I think uh yeah, language we still get ASD a lot actually in the UK. Um I think that's one of the things I've I've really seen how long it takes for things to phase out. Um and and it is still in the diagnostic manual. So a lot of children will still get

I think some um psychologists are v who are very tight on this is what the manual says, this is what I put in the report. Um I know of others who are more um flexible. But obviously there's I mean I know there's implications with that in terms of um, law cases and things where some people have had difficulties when A S D hasn't been used and the diagnosis hasn't been recognised in legal cases. So it's it is really tricky for yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

buzzword for a bit. Um because I think people just love an acronym.

So they wanted to replace A S D with A S C and I was like, Can't we just use the word autism and autistic? Right. Um but it's not it's taking a while for that to be kind of standard. And I think again, people Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hynny.

Mae llawer yn ymwneud â llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer sort of disparity depending on what school your your child's at. But there's been lots of talk about new um papers coming out from the government which keep being delayed. But they are supposed to be coming, I think, late spring. Um, and they are supposed to be focusing on much more training.

Being embedded for school staff, um various other things which we will see what what comes of that. But um we have got some quite active um charities as well who try and advocate uh kind of originally I think they were set up for parents, but Um, now there has been a lot more focus luckily on

the voice of people with lived experience. Um and I think that's also shaping research here as well, um, which is is probably the driving force um behind those changes as well. But it is um Slow and steady, I suppose we could say. Yeah.

Well, Lyric and Rebecca, I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation today. I'd love to wrap up with just one final question. So if you were speaking to someone, either an adult or a child who has just learned they are autistic. What would you say to them? What's the one thing that you would really want them to hear? You're not broken. You are not broken and learn what being autistic means to you on an individual level. Learn what your needs are and how to advocate for those needs.

And learn how autism not only impacts your struggles, but also how it impacts your strengths, what it gives you. And, you know, know that no matter what you're who you're meant to be and you're a beautiful human being and I you know I just wish more autistic people really could see how awesome they are. Uh, because so many autistic people I've met and worked with over the years.

don't see how awesome they are. And it's like, I love you. You're amazing. You're awesome. Why can't you see that for yourself? And so I just wish I could like give a gift for people to see themselves how other people see them because uh a lot of us we we don't know. Mm-hmm. I think for me it's probably um about community and authenticity. So knowing that actually you are now part of this community that you may not have realised you're part of.

And whether that's the online community or meeting others in person, um, I think that finding other people who you can identify with that's really powerful. And I think researchers found that as well. That's has a real big impact on whether And then the authenticity side of uh Kind of educating yourself around you know what works for you and And um I suppose the sort of non negotiables of yes, you might do certain things as we all do.

of adapt to different situations, but don't lose your true self um in trying to kind of Lyric Rivera and Rebecca Duffes, authors of Autism, Identity and Me. Thanks so much for talking to me today. Thank you, it was such a pleasure. Neutral about neurodivergence. We don't want to overemphasize it. a thing, so we just don't say much. Exist in a neutral. There are already narratives out there and kids. Up messages, from media, from peers, from the way adults react in subtle moments.

I've seen families who genuinely only to realize later that their child interpreted the quiet as discomfort. Not because anyone said anything negative, just because it felt like something we weren't supposed to talk about too well. Affirmation isn't about being dramatic or making identifications. someone's whole personality.

It's just about being clear. Clear that neurodivergence isn't a flaw. Clear that it belongs in the story without apology. And when we offer that clarity over time, it makes a ton of difference. I'm Emily Kircher Morris. I'll see you next time on the Neurodiversity Podcast. Thanks again to Rebecca Duffus and Lyric Rivera. I'm putting links to their work and more information about them in the description.

We have listeners all over the globe, but here's a quick closed circuit message to people in New England and the Northeast United States who are cleaning up after a historic snowstorm. You missed a spot. Yeah, right there. On the edge. There you go. Our host is Emily Kircher Morris. Corey Oric is our office manager and production assistant. Executive producer Dave Morris. For all of us, thank you for listening to the video. And we'll see you next time.

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