Hey Richard, Hey Carl, what do you know?
Well, I know that our friend Michelle Rubusta Monte is with us to tell us about something that's going on adjacent to DEV Intersection.
What is it? It's cybersecurity Intersection. Let's let Michelle tell that story.
Hey Michelle, Hey Carl, Hey Richard, how are you.
Tell us about cybersecurity Intersection?
Well, so, Richard and I are partnering with the group that does DEV Intersection and next Gen AI, and we are putting on a new conference dedicated to one hundred percent security focused topics. And I mean, honestly, the lineup of speakers is incredible. We have Paula A. Jenis, who's here from Poland and does keynotes all over the world and is one of the top rated RSA speakers and
black hat speaker. We're so lucky to have her. But she's not only keynoting, she's got a workshop teaches you about protecting your environments against hackers and shows you about how to you know, do attacks so that you can prevent them. It's pretty cool and sessions like that as well.
But we also have speakers from Microsoft. We have we have speakers that specialize in you know secure coding practices, Azure security, zero trust architectures on Azure uh and people who do decision maker tracks, so things around governance policy and you know how to how to manage and your production operations keep them secure. So it's an amazing group of speakers, really excited about it.
And I think I can count myself among the group of speakers there.
Well, yes you can. That is great.
Yeah, I'm doing a securing Blazer Server applications talk and also I think we're doing a Security this Week live show there somewhere that is correct.
Yeah, we'll be recording Security this Week Live. We're going to have a great panel with some folks. The interesting thing here is we don't really have a Microsoft and dot net and Azure focused toecurity conference yet, so that's the reason we're putting this on as well. You know there are other security conferences, but they have a spread of topics that maybe don't focus on the things you
do day to day. And you know this overlaps with again our community of folks that specialize in again dot net, Azure and yeah, they need to keep it secure too. So with tons of.
Talks, cyber Intersection is part of a trio of conferences we're doing. They have Intersection alongside the Next Gen AI Conference all in Orlando the week of October fifth through tenth. That's workshops and the main conference. And you can get a special registration code if you sign up through Cybersecurity Intersection dot com.
Yeah, so if you sign up at Cybersecurity Intersection dot com, then you put in this code, so Alliance cyber three hundred and you'll get three hundred off the entry price. So that's a special code that only works at cybersecurity dot com. And then you have access to all the conferences.
Like Richard said, Wow, that's cool. Thanks Michelle. I'm looking forward to it and I'll see you there. Hey, guess what, it's dot net rocks all over again.
I'm Carl Franklin, an amateur Campbell.
We're at episode nineteen hundred and sixty nine.
The first time I've looked at history and thought we probably should do a geek out all by itself because this is all by itself on this year. It's the craziest year, just out of it.
Yeah, completely madness, cultural shift, end of the sixties. It's a big deal, no kidding. It was a pivotabal moment. Yeah, well we might as well do that.
Now you want to go right into it.
Yeah, what happened in nineteen sixty nine. I'm going to let you talk about the space stuff because it's pretty significant. Why don't you start with that?
Yeah? Sure, I mean we're talking about the Moon landing. So Apollo nine, which tested the lunar module in lower orbit, Apollo ten, which flew all the way to the Moon, practiced the landing, got within fifteen kilometers of the surface,
and then aborted to test the abort systems. And then in July of nineteen sixty nine, the Apollo landing A follow eleven and Neil Armstrong and that other guy Buzz still good old Buzz Buzz Buzz, who was also like the guy He's the one who said magnificent desolation describing the Moon, and they pulled off this remarkable mission again at ridiculously high risk. Yes, that vehicle, the lunar lawn
module was the limiting factor. It could support two people for three days, but it took more than three days to stage your rescue, So anything had failed anywhere in that vehicle, it was not survivable. Neil happened to bump the a breaker on his way out of the lunar module and broke that breaker. That breaker happened to be
the power connection for the ascent engine. Ouch turned out that the shape of the breaker cap that would have pinned it back down was exactly the same shape as a felt pen cap, which Buzz happened to have found jam did in there, and that's the only reason they were able to get back. That's so cool. I'm sure they would have come up with another solution.
Well, and Apollo of their team would come later. And that was even so much innovation in order to get those guys on so much of emergency to find it, find a way to survive. Not to ignore the Soviets, but they were behind at that point. They did their first in orbit rendezvous that same year, but the real accomnchihment with the first successful landing on Venus with the Venera six mission that made it to the surface of Venus, sent back footage for about twenty minutes and then milting it.
Other aerospace news again to ninety sixty ninety Insane seven forty seven's first test flight and first commercial flight in the same year, go Boeing also Concord's first test flight.
Nineteen sixty nine. It's crazy, but for all of us being computer people and what you are doing right now. This was the year that arpanet was turned on for the very first time. So this was a packet switching network precursor to TCPIP was all about decentralization, no central help, multiple routing routes. Although the first messages attempt a first message attempted to be transmit across the network got as far as L and O in login before crashing. Yeah,
still work needed to be done. But all of that in nineteen.
And of course, in terms of culture, the Beatles' last public performance on the roof of Apple Records on January thirtieth, And did you watch Get Back? Yes, the remake of it so a great movie. Great movie and the way that they cleaned up the footage and everything. It was so much better than the quote unquote Let It Be movie, which was just horrible quality. Woodstock, the Woodstock Festival in August in New York, Upstate New York was a big deal.
Yep. Yeah.
In politics, Vietnam War escalated, significant anti war protests occurring across the US. The Libyan coup September one, Marmarga Daffi ousted King Idris the first ho Chi Minh died September second, at the age of seventy nine. And there was a few other things. But wow, what a year. Yeah, crazy years, extraordinary year. And we were two, so we were just becoming conscious of everything around us.
Not really, yeah, barely. Oh they lift off of Apollo eleven was July sixteenth, my birthday. Yeah. Oh so I turned two as the rocket was taking.
That is so cool. Random yeah, random, but very cool. All right, so let's do better? No framework roll the music?
Awesome? All right, man, what do you got?
I found this really cool trending repo on GitHub. Web gooat to web gooat a deliberately insecure web application.
Oh nice.
It's maintained by OASP designed to teach web application security lessons. Big disclaimers while running.
Do not deploy this.
Don't even be on the internet when you're running it. Oh wow, it's a demonstration of common service side application flaws.
Right.
The exercises are intended to be used by people to learn about application security and pen testing techniques, and so warning one is, while running this program, your machine will be extremely vulnerable to attack. You should disconnect from the Internet while using this program. Webgoats default configuration binds to local hosts to minimize exposure. And of course this program is for educational purposes only.
Right.
If you attempt these techniques without authorization, you are very likely to get caught. If you are caught engaging in unauthorized hacking, most companies will fire you, claiming that you were doing security research. Will not work? Is that as the first thing that all hackers claim? How about that?
Yep, don't do it. I mean, you know we're big on Troy hunts. You know, pen test yourself, you know, hack yourself, but do it with permission. Let people know what you're doing. You know, your intent should be good, be very careful.
And you know, like they say, don't be on the internet, don't expose yourself. Yeah, you can do all this without added risk.
There are tools sweeping ips all the time looking for vulnerabilities. You will not be it will not be long. Yeah, and that's it. Who's talking to us today? Richard Grabbing comment off a show with nineteen fifty four, the one we did a build with our friend w O'Brian talking about how AI has come to playwright with the playwright MCP which I think you and I both really enjoyed. Yeah,
this is a funny comment. This is from Karthik VK who said in the podcast was mentioned that Microsoft should be leading the agent space, but I argue they already were, just without getting recognitional rewards. Microsoft has consistently been in first areas but rarely reaps the benefits. I don't know if I agree with you on this, Karthik, but let's see your argument. Take Copilot studio. It's a solid platform
for building agents with real finesse. Semantic Kernel is another underrated gem, true enough, not easy to work with, but pretty powerful, letting developers convert existing applications into LLLM powered ones just by adding attributes using function calling in a well architected way. This is new for Microsoft. They were first with a touch based OS, but never got credit.
That's definitely not true, you know, doubt They did a lot of experiments and built tablets early on and back in the XPE and so forth, but there were touch based interfaces. Heck, we talked about it on the show here going back to the sixties. So yeah, they've been around for a while. The much criticized Vista layout is now being embraced by Apple as the foundation for AR glasses of spatial interface. Yeah. I don't think Apple would
coin it that way. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, the basic idea of bigger icons that give space for those kinds of interfaces. I don't know that you can copyright any of that. Yeah. Microsoft often builds foundational tech that shapes and ecosystem, but not always ways and build bring them glory. I think like all companies, Microsoft does allow experiments to happen and sometimes put them in the field, and sometimes they're too
ahead of the market. You know, Apple may have built the iPhone, but they also built the Newton ten years before.
Yeah, you can't say always this and never that. I mean, it's just not the way it works that. Microsoft has made some great contributions to tech over the years, and also some flops. So and so is Apple. It's just not a.
I'm really disappointed to Courier tablet never shipped. You know, they they got to final prototype on that one before they pulled the plug on, which is two bad because it's it looked like an interesting machine. I not think that it would have succeeded, but I would have bought one I would have taken one up for a spin for sure. But yeah, Karthik, I think there's more research to be done if you want to see these different things.
But I agree there's many technologies that get put out there but are put in the in front of people in a way that they necessarily embrace. If Microsoft says sinning for anything, it's not advocating for their own stuff as well as they possibly could. Often they're just building things and it gets out there, and whether or not people can see what it can do is another question entirely. Heck, half our shows are based on Hey, did you know
what could do this? Yeah? Right? But that being said, thank you so much for your comment, and a coffee of music Cobuy is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music Code, I read a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you comment there and we're reading the show, we'll send you a copy of music Code.
By Before we get started with James here, I want to let everybody know that Jeff Fritz and I have a new YouTube show that we're doing in addition to Blazer puzzle, and we're probably going to alternate weeks, but it's called code It with AI. As you probably know
and James certainly knows because he's his boss. There's a big mandate to do AI content for Microsoft Evangelism, you know, to because there's a lot of new stuff and there's a lot of things to understand, and so we wanted to take some of the stuff that he did in Copilot that John, which is his website of all these little tips and tricks for using Copilot and other things, and do videos exposing some of the things that we can do as dot net developers, not only to help
us write code and publish software, but to incorporate AI into our applications. And so we started It's interesting you started. You talked about Playwright. We started with the playwright MC was it MCP? Yeah, yeah, we started with the Playwright MCP to create documentation for Copilot dot com and we did an individual studio code with the Sonnet four to oh and it was amazing. It basically was a very small prompt and it just created a user manual for
Copilot dot John using playwright. So that's coded with AI dot com. If you want to check it out and we will do more and let us know.
That's it.
So let's bring James on. James Montemagne is an old friend of ours, a developer community lead at Microsoft focused on building community around and helping developers learn and adopt the latest frameworks, languages, and agentic developer tools. Hey man, what's up.
Yeah?
I think that new one at the very end is the first time we got to add that on sence the last time I was on the pod.
So yeah, it's been a last time we were on. It was like zamorin Land, it was just a while ago, like entirely too long ago, to be clear.
I've missed you both, and I'm I'm very pleased and honored and humbled to be back on the pod. So it's really good to be back.
You have you on, man.
Let's give a little a little history here.
Oh my god.
Back in the days of Zamorin, we met James and Hardy, right, yeah, yeah, in Boston at the beginning of a dot net Rocks tour, right, and you guys were you know, zamorin and at that point, and we were talking about zamorin forms and all that stuff. You were talking about zamorin forms on the road trip with us, and we were just talking about dot net in general. I think, if my memory is correct, I.
Always had the sense that he was chucked under the bus in that sense, it's like, hey, get on this bus with these strange men.
It was it was my I believe it was my second month on the job, and I'm pretty sure that they said, Hey, you're going on Toro with these two dudes, or got this RV and just driving around the US and go ah.
And I don't know if you and Chris did it the same time, but you guys had built apps and got noticed by Microsoft. And I guess that's you know, how you worked your way into the organization, isn't it? The mobile app?
Yeah?
So I had been a professional mobile I worked at Cannon early on, writing printer software for them out of college, and then I went to PDC, which was right before Build. I was on big tent on campus and I got a Windows phone. I was a c sharp developer, fell in love with mobile development, got an Android device an iPhone, started building apps, and I got a job in Seattle. Moved my life up there as a mobile developer, found zamorin to do cross platform mobile devon dot net. Never
looked back and that was it. I wrote an app that got featured for the company I worked at, Seaton. I got featured in Gadget and I was writing blog posts and doing kind of advocacy off to the side, and yeah, they randomly emailed me. I thought it was actually for like their MVP program. I didn't actually realize that it was to come in and interview like with Natt Friedman at the time, so I like win and
course by then I knew I was interviewing. And yeah, it was three and a half years had xamred before the acquisition into Microsoft, which is which is awesome. So you know, I still building and publishing apps. I just published a brand new Blazer hybrid MAUI app to the app store last week, you know ndred percent Vibe Code, which was awesome.
So it was rad I remember Chris Hardy talking about his favorite app that he wrote was how many days until Christmas?
He's a big house fan.
Yeah, and I took his it was ioas only and I ported it to Android. Those are the very one of the very first things that I did, and I put that on the app Store with Chris, which is hilarious.
So yeah, yeah, funny, funny stuff, long long time ago. But we boy, that's where we met and we have been friends ever since.
Absolutely, yeah. And it's like it's so interesting the year stuff. Right, you think you were, you know, around in nineteen sixty nine, Like what a time to be alive. And that's kind of like now. I kind of like think that now, and just like how everything is. Everything's always be moving fast, right, but it feels like things are super accelerated. But if you've latched on, I feel like it's in a really
really fun and interesting place. I'm excited to dive in with kind of some new topics with y'all.
Well yeah, I mean we don't. We haven't really we don't really talk about visual studio code that much because I don't think Richard and I use it all that much. I don't know about you, Richard, but.
I'm in and out of it all the time. But you know we're we're studio people or ide people, right, that's where we came from. I don't know that when I want to develop, that's where I go. When I want to edit a zambal doc. I mean I mean studio code, but.
I've found that the agents work better in studio code than they do in studio probably because of the threading model or something like that. I don't know what's going on, but I really really enjoy it. You know, every time that Fritz and I do something in studio code, I'm like, hmm, maybe maybe I'll you know, although I have customers that are in studio and I have to use that, so.
Yeah, I think I think, you know, for me, it was kind of in maybe January or February this year or I kind of made this leap and jump, and I think a lot of developers are early on, like in their sort of like how much AI coding stuff do I adopt every single day and their journey, Like we kind of think that everybody's using it, but that's not the case. However, many people are and adopting it
kind of slowly. But we have always been if you think about just intelli Sense and intelecode, and then we have the extensions that have been giving us and helping us write code faster.
So really, in.
January February, I kind of did dive all in when agent mode dropped inside of VS code and I really dove in deeper because the c sharp Defocate was getting better, the Maui extensions were getting better, the Plazer integrations were getting better, and it's really just dove all in. And
I like to say I like gave in. I gave myself to agent mode, and you know, I've gone back and forth kind of talking about the IDEs, like the vs team has been doing great, like you know, adding more and more features to the Relief twenty twenty six is coming out soon, and like there's more and more integration. So it feels like they have some unique features that are like the profile aer and some of the debugging stuff for ID specific things. But yeah, the agent mode
and the rapid pace. Like I'm on Insider for VS code and I'm just getting updates every single night, just like rapid, right, and that's how I live. I don't stable, I on the insider and just go.
I feel like VS code can move faster into this new paradigm than the studio can, Like studio customers tend to be supporting large projects, like we tend to not emphasize the studio responsibilities to project management as much as it is to coding space as well, Like the show we did with Mads a few weeks ago talking about Studio twenty twenty six. He's very clear this is the AI version of Studio and it's still coming where you know, Studio Code had this in the spring to some of
the rate. Obviously there's more to be done, but it's like, hey, would you think's going to happen with this behemoth that is an eye like it only goes so quickly. They've I've really done the plugins and so forth, but the integration is not the same. It'll be interesting to see where they get to. But this is far from a played out store.
We were talking to Dustin Campbell and I was sort of complaining a little bit about the Razor Editor. He says, oh, yeah, I got that, man, I'm working on that, and apparently he has. I haven't seen twenty twenty six yet, but Fritz says he has, and the Razor Editor is like night and day of what it is and you know, currently in twenty twenty two.
Yeah, I think so, I can't wait.
The teams are really pushing super hard, and I think it's a good point. Like I also think that it's
great that these you know, two paradigms exist. A lightweight code editor that's an AI first open source everything editor, and then visual Studio, which is this ide with all these big workloads sets up everything for you, right, And I think with the Visual Studio, right, it's also not just I'm going to open a project, it's that they're come and is that And individuals that have huge, crazy projects, right, huge c plus plus games like game studios are using
these things with you know, hundreds of millions of lines of code, right, and they're like legacy projects too, and you have to think about how do you support the really really old stuff and the new stuff and then make all of that AI stuff work seamlessly across all of that. That's a big chat challenge to represent compared to, Hey, I'm on modern stack, right, Like I built this at feedback Flow, which you know, I've one hundred percent vibe coded AI and I went back and forth between VS
and VS code. But that's all modern, right. It's it's done at nine, it's Blazer, it's Azure Functions, it's done at APIs, it's modern MCP stack. So I'm in the modern world of doing stuff inside of there. And that was great, you know, that I could go and I could also open that in VS if I need to do deep debugging or do like some advanced profiling or things like that. But I can also code anywhere. Right right now, I'm on my my Mac Mini, I got my surface loptop, I got all my devices. So that's
where that sort of experience goes. I think it's kind of a It's always a great time to be alive as a developer because things are evolving. But just that choice and flexibility I think is important. And we say that with AI as well. There's lots of choices out there.
I'm seeing that lots of teams, especially those they also have younger generation developers. They are mixing the two like studio and studio code, you know, especially once you get dev kid in the equation, they work and play well together. And a lot of web devs and again I'm going to say skew younger, they're not interested in the ide they learned on studio code. That's how they want to develop.
They have a plan on how they want to do that, but they need to work within those larger projects that let's face it, more senior folks are living, you know, we're originally built in the IDE and a lot of the dependency on that, so it's not like these two are mutually exclusive to each other now.
And I think the team's done a pretty good job, especially in this last year, especially as Visual Studio has actually adopted a faster iteration cycle instead of every quarter every month, and you're actually seeing a lot more parody jumping between the two, right actually, as far as model selection, how the actual like agent mode and chat modes work, and how different integrations like now with coding agents are
being integrated between the two. So VS Code because it ships crazy fast, you know, is going to have things super fast first, but also VS will soon follow up. Right, it's going through different sort of you know, rolling out as just sort of people adopt things at a different pace, but also adding unique features, like I said, specific for that type of development.
Being done, and you would hope one informs the other two, like what they learn from those modules running in studio code then is reflected in studio. You know, can can build a better version or more it may make more sense for that customer.
Base, absolutely, you know, And that's why I like the naming. The names are the same, right, ask an agent they're the same. Right, It'd be really weird if you open the same project in both VS Code and Visual Studio and then like everything is one hundred percent different, right, So even icons and placement and things thought about. I think at that factor, however, like inherently they're different. They're
different editors, they're different spaces inside of there. And for me at least, I've really enjoyed kind of being on this like super breakneck fast, you know, on the things
that I'm building. I like to say the year of twenty twenty five was the year that I shipped and wrote more code in my entire life, at multiple levels small like little prototype levels, to large production applications that are infusing you know, AI elements of foundry into them, to functions to databases, and nearly none of the code
I wrote by hand at all. Right, I'm actually like, really, like I said, dove into this prompt first type of development between both VS Code and VS and it's really fascinating to watch the editors evolve and also the deep understanding that like VS and VS Code and Microsoft itself in the developer space, you know, developers, right, So we're building tools for developers and we're dog footing, right.
The vs Code.
Team builds vs code with vs code and agent mode and these things, and same with the Visual Studio team. So it's like deep dog fooding and understand that we've been doing this for twenty years, thirty years, whatever it is now that deep understanding of how software is built.
Can we talk about the models a little bit. It's my understanding that Claude's on it for is like the best right now for coding C sharp, Blazer, CSS, JavaScript. What's your take on that?
Well, Carl, back in my day in February weeks ago, you know it's now fun because you know all the web devs like with JavaScript lies. Oh it's a new day, it's a new like. Now it's a new model.
Right.
So when I always when I super dove in like Clauds on it, three five Droma and four is using there, I think there's a few things models or models will be new models they have all the time. I think for me, it's it's when I think of this and if I was to encouraged developers listening, it's a new tool in your toolbox. Every model is a new tool. Inside of that toolbox is ask, which is agent mode, which is coding agents that are working autonomous in the background.
For me, it's a great question. It comes down to how do you want to work and how do you want to work with your model? So let me break it down into two categories.
You kind of have.
You have the GPT models and I usually am in GPT five Mini or GBT five and a lot of Sonnet. I go back and forth, and I'll tell you why I go back and forth. Okay, that these models inherently work and think different and they're different people. It is if I have two different co workers sitting side by side of me, working.
With different kinds of brain damage, basically.
All sorts of different thinking and logic and type of code that they write. So I think with the GPT models they like to kind of be told what to do, like what files, what do you want to work on? You know, how do you want to work on it? And go off and do it. They are very much give me a ticket, describe the specs. I gotcha, right.
They're very very good at that, and they're very very fast at it, right to be more pointed at it, and that's good in a lot of scenarios like bug fixing, like examining, just looking and doing ask and like kind of getting detailed information quickly, because that's.
That's what the GitHub agent uses, right, getub agent, the on GitHub, the coding agent, the coding Yeah, the coding agent.
I think it bops between a few models, does it? Yeah? I think it does fast.
I checked it GPT only, but the son it was coming, I guess yeah.
For a while it was just son it for I think so. Really, yeah, I think so.
But son it.
Models are fascinating. They are super curious, and they are ambitious, and they take time to understand a lot of the context, explore the code base. And when you tell it to do something and you ask it and you kind of give you know, smaller, medium, or even large prompts or assign an issue, they like to get in there. They like to explore, right, They like to just just figure out all the little nooks and crannies and what qutblem
break it down. And what claud will do though, is it will do things you don't necessarily maybe even want it to do. But then you're like, maybe I did want it to do that.
I don't know.
It'll start updating things. It's like, oh, I have to dis method. Oh, I should update the docs or I should do this right, And as it sort of context grows, it will start to like really explore the COVID, which is good and bad because it's good and that it may you know, get things that you missed, but also at the same time, it takes longer. Right, you just could be letting it churn and kind of letting it do stuff which background coding agents, like background tasks, background agents,
things like that that run autonomously out there. That's great because they can take a lot of time. They can be very verbose to get run tests. But I've seen with Claude, for example, it's like, hey, let me write this tone Okay, let me run this test. I'm gonna write test, I'm gonna write the docs. I'm gonna run this, and I'm gonna run this, and you're gonna run this. You're like, Wow, you just did an entire test suite and all.
I can do is an overachiever. Uh employee.
It's ambitious. Yeah, they're really ambitious, and you want that sometimes and sometimes you don't.
I've always got the sense that claud it's like they're pre the prompt you write to chet GPT is the prompt that arrives at chet GPG. When I write a prompt to Claude, it's like somebody added a bunch of that stuff, a bunch of stuff to the prompt to do more.
So there's a few things, you know, I think of best practices here of how do we get these models to generate code as if we were writing it. One is like the team, the VS and VS code team. Like when you send a prompt, there is a system prompt that also gets sent, right because there's tools, there's mcps, results, other stuff. Each model has its own prompt, right because
each model is different. So the team is working directly with Anthropic and open AI and these other model vendors to make sure their models work great based on how they built a model. But then there's stuff that you can do right. So for example, agents dot MD and copilot and diductions, which are instruction files that get sent with every single request that you put. So think of it as your team's best practices. How do you want
your code generated? Do you want your CSS and eraser dot CSS or do you want to interact dot CSS. Do you want things to be light theme and dark theme? Do you want specific you know, M underscore, underscore, S underscore, CamelCase, Pascal case, how do you code? The model can infer, but the model also wants to please, and it wants
to please quickly. Right, So like if you think of GPT, especially for one or five five mini that aren't necessarily deep thinking models, they want to respond to you as fast as humanly possible.
Right, So, if you're right, they want to be Promorphization is killing Richard, I can just well, no, don't.
Worry, it's coming. You're absolutely correct. You're absolutely correct. I see the mistake now, you're right, and they want to make you they want they want to make you happy inherently, right. So that's why they have this like verbiage that is like, oh no, you're absolutely right, you're totally you're totally good. Yep, I see the problem up good? Yeah, Oh I fixed it.
Did you?
I don't know what I're looking for is obsequious, but you know when you think about it, you know, if you had another engineer sitting side by side, do you you know you'd be looking at the code.
Oh yeah, I do see the problem there, it is, right, let's fix it.
When you actually pair a program. You are pretty kind to each other because we've all sat in the seat, right, Yeah, we've all sat beside the seat.
If you look at it that way, I think that's the way to achieve it. And then also not giving up on it. When I built feedback Flow, like I said, it's it's hundreds of thousands of lines of code and nice architecture and fully open source. And I went into it saying I don't want to write any code. I want to really dive deep into understanding how every model works, how the agent works, how I can customize my instructions,
how I can get this working. And I'm at the point now I don't even run the app on on my local machine. I just push it to a branch, do a PR, it goes into staging, have the I
don't even run it. I don't even need to because it's gotten to the point that I've massaged the infrastructure around it so much that the thing is building it, it's running the test, that's doing all the stuff before I push the code, sure that it's either going to look or not right, and just wasting time running it and testing it's not going to pass the tests if it is.
When you say massaging the infrastructure, do you mean like setting up a context so it kind of knows your style and it and you said it infers it, but does it remember it?
Like is there?
Do the agents have enough context to learn what I like and keep doing it that way?
Right now you're in the mode of telling it kind of how you wanted to do. So that agent's dot mdfile or the copilot instructions filed. They're the most important files in any project. System prompts, yeah, they're well, they're they are not necessarily system prompts. Think of them as a set of you know, guidance that you send with
every prompt. So for example, it'll tell it like what the projects are, what frameworks they are, how you like your CSS, how you like your c sharp, how you like these things, how you like different things constructed in your application. Maybe for example, like you prefer using XI nate over MS tests, and the tests are run here and this is how you run them, or using aspires, or here's how you run a spire, Here's how you
want your CSS versus not. And with every request that gets sent off, so it gets attached to the system prompt So give it the guidance of the context. Now that being said, there's not like there's memories today. I mean you can inherently create memories. So I often have a docs folder or an ideas folder or you know, kind of something in my repo, kind of like spectruve in development, like here's my specification, so it could go
look at how I want things created. But when you're in the agent chat, there that entire, entire context is being sent back and forth. Right, So the memories, if you're working on a big feature, you inherently are like, okay, I want to start new chats and I'm working on something different. It's actually better to keep that thing around until you've implemented or fixed that bug and then change context. It's almost like opening and closing a ticket because that
context is there now. Ideally over time and I think we'll get there and probably not the far future. Is that these bits of memory, right Like Carl, for example, you're like no, no, no, I really want my CSS this way, blah blah blah. It should remember that, and it should remember that just like you would write that in a documentation. So right now today, what I do is whenever I see something wrong that it generated and I asked.
It to fix it.
I say, oh, and can you go write a note in the copilot instructions so you don't get this mistake again. So I'm telling it to go inherently keeping it memory out there.
I've found with the GitHub code agent coding agent that even though I did that, it's still insisted every time I asked it to do some laser coding to take my existing dot net nine application and downgrade it to dot net eight for set, no matter how many times I say, don't do this, keep storing it.
Okay, okay, okay, So here's what's happening with coding agents.
Bluish pluck here.
Okay, so I just I just watched this as black like whole labubou thing, which is hilarious ID YouTube. Okay, so here's a pro tip for dot net developers. Okay, So think of coding agents as so agent mode chat. You know, code completions inside of VS, inside of VS code model context switch. Coding agents. These are that, but now they're working on some other machine doing work asynchronously
for you. It's like having a whole plethora of coworkers assigning and doing work all at the same time, multiple branches, multiple things, things like that, and to get up Copilot coding agent is one of those same thing right now. Inherently what happens here, think of it is it needs to spin up architecture, needs to spin up a machine to write the code and run your code and test
the code on it. So just like you would you write a GitHub action, or you would say, hey, I want this to be on a Windows VM, I wanted to have dot Net nine, I want to insult these workloads, blah blah blah blah blah, you gotta do the same thing for the coding agent. So you have to create a workflow, and you need to create it with a specific name, which is the Copilot setup instructions. And I had this happen. It was so upsetting everything that you're
talking about in general. I'm opposed to link there. This is to mine. And what I do is I say, hey, you're going to run this on an am boontu Latest, give it read permission, check out the code, set up dot net nine, and then insull dependencies and insult the ASPIRECLI. And when you do that, what ends up happening is it writes the code and then it builds your project, so you can think of it like this. What happened to Carl is it tried to run the code and it's like I only got done at eight. I don't
have dot at nine. So instead of it, does it necessarily know how to install stuff, you know on your behalf on that machine, you need to tell it.
It would be cool if it did.
To be honest with you, I mean it can you get restore, it can run those commands. So it's like, hey, I know, I know how to fix this, Like, oh, I see the problem. I see the problem.
I'll just eight.
I'm on a machine that's done at eight, but you want down nine, so I'm just going to downgrade it automatically. So that's how you get around that. And the same thing for for Maui, for example, if you're doing Mali work you install the Maui workload for for Android and I just run it on a boon joke because you don't need to inherently run it on iOS and all.
These other things.
So that's how that's how you set it up. It seems silly, but once on at ten's here, then the default right, the default machine, Well, then get upgraded. So That is a pro tip because I ran to that same thing. I use coding agents all the time. I have an idea at midnight, I open up the GitHub app on my phone, you know, I create an issue.
Boom done. Yeah.
And now if I'm on a branch, I just you just go in and there's an agent's panel to say, yeah, this app. Go. I wake up in the morning, you're like five pool requests ready for your review, you know. And it's like this crazy thing. Once you go all in that you can really build in hip code if you get it into that state where I think you're in the flow kind of like when we talk about code flow, right, you're in the addit area blah blah blah blah.
Right.
If you can get in in the flow with these agents, and I think it can be super super productive.
So I know, we got to take a break here, so let's do that. When we come back, I have a message about Azure deevop, so we'll be right back after these very important messages. Did you know there's a dot net on AWS community. Follow the social media blogs, YouTube influencers and open source projects and add your own voice. Get plugged into the dot net on Aws Community at aws dot Amazon dot com, slash dot net, and we're back. It's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, that's Richard Campbell. Hey,
that's James Montemagno. And we're talking about AI and visual studio code in other places. So, yeah, I have a customer where we started out in GitHub and then they said we had to go over to Azure DevOps because there are other stuff, their legacy stuff is over there whatever. And then the GitHub copilot agent coding agent comes out and I'm like, geez, I wish I had this over there,
but I don't. And so now I'm trying to get him to come back over to GitHub right and they won't do that, and I'm just like, what.
Can we do about that?
That's a great question. So there are a few integrations with get up copilot for azur DevOps. One, there's been GitHub Advanced Security for a while, which is pretty cool, so you can turn that onto scanning. There's also now Azure boards integration for get hub copilot. This is a private preview you can kind of see where this is going. But basically how this will work is that if you have using Azure DevOps and if your code is hosted
on GitHub. Because Azure DevOps can connect to multiple Git repositories, you can then assign work through Azure DevOps to getthub code pilot and will perform that work for you on your back right. So it is a hybrid flow today. But that condition infrastructure.
That condition means that the code repositories have to be on GitHub and that's not where they are on TFS, and that's whe're going to stay there.
Which really what I thought was why how as your DevOps are supposed to work? That was the TFS approach, where GitHub actions was the GitHub appro.
Yeah, you know, I think that there's been a lot of listening and learning to Obviously, you know, the companies using Azure DevOps, we use a lot of Azure DevOps internally as well, so this is a problem for us to inherently we have tons of code on get up, but also tons of code not on GitHub. And there's a lot of teams that are like exactly in carl Spot that want to do this. So there's a lot
of work being done there. I don't have necessarily like insight into it, but you know, the teams are listening and you're starting to see some of that listening back into product right away. Right inherently, there are two very different products that work very very differently. And the thing is do you build the thing twice?
Right?
You know what I mean?
Or that's what they suggested.
Actually they well they suggested I clone the repo in the kidthub and then use all the coding agent stuff and then move it back into the TFS repunt. I'm like, God, I want to do that that.
There's a few things though, I will say this is is that that's a little bit tricky in general on that ideal. Obviously for all the stuff that you're doing in VS and VS code, obviously all works just fine, just that coding agent part that is there for asynchronous work. And the thing is also like remote indexing. I don't think we have remote inducing for Azure DevOps, but if your code is on GitHub, when you're working inside of VS code or Visual Studio, we actually remote index your repo.
And what that means is it can do semantic search a whole lot faster. And that means that all of your agent mode requests are like way faster, especially on huge codebases. And that's also super important. So I'm not sure that's going to come to Azure devlops for what that will look like, that would be pretty cool. I'm sure there's a future requests out there, but that is
something to think about. But yeah, you know, I think with this world of AI, there's a lot of implications of where the tools are, what tools are you using, how do you blend these together? And also the team. But one thing we'll point out is, you know, I work with a lot of companies that they're not only using dot net spoiler alert. You know, they're not only shocking, they're not only.
Using vs code.
Right, they're in Exco, they're in Intelligent, they're in other ideas. You have a team that's maybe building mobile apps natively, well, they're in exco, they're inside of Android Studio. Maybe they're back ends in dot net. So do you buy five different AI coding projects?
Yeah, well, I'm seeing that in a lot of organizations where they're quite fragmented. There's guys running Windsurfing, guys running Cursor, and yep, they're all working against the same codebase. But some weird things happen sometimes, and the models right inherently are the same models across all of them right in general, just different user experience. But I will point out this get up Copilot does have extensions for excode for Intelligent
for Eclipse. Right, that's out there, so you can actually use you know, Claude so on it, you know, powered by get up Copilot inside of xcode to write swift code like that exists today. That's out there. And I will say, if you're being enterprise, get up Copilot and the enterprise and business skeus give.
You a lot of.
Control.
For example, uh, my wife, we were just doing some coding and I was showing her all these models and this and this that, and then she's like, oky, oh I got we're doing like a little She goan to go do this thing. She's like, I only see GPT four oh and four one. She's like, I want sown it. Where's my son it? Where's my GPT five? And I was like, hell, your IT department needs to turn it on because it's like for her company. Right, So it's like, yeah,
there's that control. So I think that's one thing too, is what do you want?
Right, I've asked. I've also seen you.
Unfortunately some folks that just are like contractors. Right, they work for a bunch of different companies, and then they get their get up account onboarded by the company temporarily, and then their get up copilot settings get overruled by the company processes. Right, So how do you manage that? It's a very interesting thing about, you know, different policies that are out there, so good or bad, right, how
things are working? But yeah, it's not probably about there's CLIs, there's coding agents, there's integrations, there's all sorts of things and many tools. Obviously I use our stuff that we build.
I'm a little.
Biased, obviously, but I think our stuff's really great, and I've been really building and shipping a lot of code. But kind of to Carl's point earlier, it's also hard to really keep up with all this stuff, right, You.
Can't keep hopping between tools all the time. You got to get some work done too, exactly right. And so one thing that has been really nice is some into the newer standardization when it comes to things like MCP servers, model contacts and protocol servers that want to work everywhere. It isn't the embracing of thems CP just to proof that the industry is desperate for some standards, maybe a little bit because MCP is not great, but at least
it's something people could agree. Yeah, it's a way to provide that additional context to data to these models, right, And you know there's tons of folks across the industry that are on the board, including folks from Microsoft and GitHub and the registry as well. So standardization of how does this work? How does it work in businesses? But also agents dot MD. You go to agent dot MD that is a kind of sid in the show link already because it's well worth a look and everybody seems
to be conceding that too. Yeah.
You know, here's the problem as well, is like how do you make sure that you have unique features versus everyone else? So it takes time to create those standards, but creating time means like this thing was created like a few months ago. Now it's standard, which are kind of crazy to think about in this modern day. So Agents at MD is basically a way of open format for coding agents that works across all those things that
you just mentioned, including vs code. The coding agent will come to Visual Studios soon obviously, and CLIs and it is exactly like copilot instructions in a.
Way, it's like a universal language.
It's a universal language. So what we see is folks will mix and match these agents and copilot instructions have really specific things what they're using a get up copilot, and then more generic things for the agent's ot MD that anything can work on. But yeah, so it's great to see so many names there, and I think you'll see more of this sort of standardization as it goes. But also tools will do unique things and they'll stand out as well.
So yeah, yeah, I got to push back on the vibe coding term. It kills me. I mean because what Caparthy was talking about and it was only earlier this year, which is crazy to think about that. It really was like senior developers should experiment, but you know, you don't deploy those experiments where I feel like you're using it more. You're using your tools as in a PM role, And you really say vibe coding and we say, I'm not writing the code, but I am supervising the process.
It's like a pejorative that got reclaimed by another culture, right. You know, so my kids used to call me bougie. You know, Oh that's so that's so boogie dad. You know, when I'm like cooking a steak that costs sixty bucks or something like that, Oh, it's so bougie. And then you know, I'm like, I'm going to use that term in a positive way. I'm gonna, Oh, this is gonna be the boogiest dinner you've ever had, right, And they're like, no, Dad, No, you can't do that.
I think if I'm going the same thing, it's hard. When I think of vibe coding is really just coding with AI. Let's just be honest with you and you're in a flow, just like you can be coding anytime. To me, honestly, that's all vibe coding is. I went on hansom In's podcast and he had the same exact thing, I hate you know, blah blah blah. I was like, listen, I think the term is silly, but it also describes
what is happening in my mind. I was up with David Fowler working on the feedback flow app because him and I were going back and forth on it, and it's like this is a real production now, like this is a thing that actually ships, like a real money for my personal subscription that has It's one of the biggest things that I've ever shipped, you know, in the last fourteen years since I did advocacy. It's it's a real product. And I also vibe code tons of tiny
projects as well. But it is just really coding. But I am in a vibe like I'd be up at two in the morning going back and forth and David's like, what if you had this new feature and literally five minutes later, I'd have it pushed to production. It was like the vibes, the flow. It's a coding flow, just with AI. So the vibe coding part.
Is it's all vibes.
I say, it's vibes all the way down. I turn on some music. I'm just going. And I told my wife, I said, when I was really deep in this project, really in the beginning, I said, I'm sorry, I'm just I haven't had this much fun coding in like a decade, and I can't help myself. And I know I'm gonna wake up refresh and I'm going I managing a project. I'm not not coding. I am supervising in real time. I don't know the code is mine. I'm prompt, I'm
doing things. I got into this flow where literally as it was churning and it was describing what's doing and it's doing I'm actively reviewing the code so fast. In my mind, that flow, that flow state was just there. I'm not say it's going to be there for everyone when you're working on very pointed updates, but it happened.
No, No, And I totally and I agree with what you're saying too, Like, I think this is a great point. It's like, if your passion is typing code, you're not going to love these tools. Now if your passion is delivering solutions to customers, boy, this thing cranks out solutions fast. And you're running in there that PM role of supervising the overall flow, but you're also responsible for the architecture.
You know, you're you're kind of put on the QA head. Ever, so I woulday, are we really going down the right path? Like you're pressing on a lot of things. But and that could be really fun. I have a friend who said, dude, I've learned how to fly, and I'm really enjoying flying.
I worked Okay, so not ALLAI coding is vibes right, So I worked with co pilot pother and I implemented authentication into my feedback flow app. It took one month one poll request. I added twenty we added twenty two thousand lines of code, removed five thousand lines of code. We had two hundred files changed in a conversation of
two hundred and forty comments back and forth. We're having a conversation reviewing code back and forth in real time, right, And this happened pushing back and forth to get us right.
And to be clear, you're conversing with software.
I am conversing with software as if it is. It is Carl sitting next to me, and and I'm reviewing code with Carl. That's what I'm.
Doing, James.
But I also have a great appreciation for putting all that as issues and in pull requests. Commentary gives you a clear documentation of what the intent was and what the tools did for you.
Yeah, one hundred percent, one one hundred percent and there, like I am, the guidance is just a tool, whether whether it's there or not, just like intellcode or Intelecentre. Honestly, it's exactly the same.
And I'm high resisted the personalization because people are overdoing it, right, They're taking this to the r but do I talk to my car and my car misbehaves? Damn, right, I do. There you go.
I will say this. I do talk to agents and AI much different than I would talk to Carl A hundred percent sure, are.
Per I know a lot of folks just like if you conversed with a person the way you're talking to this tool, HR would be calling you. Right, this is abusive language.
You know what I talk about when I talk about the Amazon thing that starts she who starts with a right. We can't really say her name because she does cause harm. So my wife, when you know, I will usually say, you know, hmmm, stop when she's rambling on about something I wanting to stop. My wife says shut up, and it works, but I feel bad.
Yeah, you know like negative language, negative language and it works. It affects both ways.
Yeah, I think just looking at it is like if I'm writing the code or I'm writing the prompt. It's like I was going to write this code eventually, right, but I'm doing the code reviews. I'm like you said, I'm in charge of the archestras.
You are responsible.
Yeah, And I would say this even if you're like, I don't necessarily wanted to write my code. I was sitting down with a developer the other day and this really complex application, big scale application, and they were hitting this endpoint. It was making a call off to EF and hitting their database and it was just returning a five hundred er no exception. It just was five hundred
coming back in the swagger. And I said, Okay, here's what I wreck And they were like, I've been trying to figure out what the heck this is going for the last forty five minutes. I said, take the entire exception, go into ask mode and put on a thinking model, right, a thinking model that can do deep research. Say hey, I have this method in this thing. When I call this this is happening. I know the breakpoint goes here, it doesn't hit the next line.
What's the problem.
Within thirty seconds, it's like, Oh, what actually happened is you'd set up a new model and the DTO and enerny framework is expecting it as a foreign key, but it expects it as a different name inherently, so you need to add an attribute to foreign key.
Right.
Could they have figured that out?
Yes? How long would it took?
Who knows?
But it's smart. Could have been the whole day and your keyboard imprints on your forehead right like being there thrashing.
So I think it is it is a do you need to go all in to this agent mode and it's coding agent like start slow, right, get some suggestions, ask it, get some insight into the application. I was working with the with copilot just yesterday with my MCP server I have for this app, and I was like, yeah, you know, how do I architect it? What does this look like? What do I need to update my application? It came together with a plan. It's like, here's the plan.
Let's review the plan, and then let's implement the plan. Right, So I'm in control, right human in the loop, I'm always in control of everything that it's doing. I'm prompting, I'm creating the plan, I'm creating the issues. I'm reviewing that code. I'm the one pressing the merge button right right, I'm merging the code right at the end of the
day that I've reviewed inside of it. And the hope is that with the guidance of these instructions and these agents on MD that that the code that it generates is very similar to code that I would generate at the end of the day, so I have to review and the compiler always gets to say and the requirement stock is sitting there to compare against.
Like I do think we're in a unique place in our role as creators of software to take these generative AI tools to places that are harder for other industries to do, just because we're used to vetting this and we're used to building goal posts and evaluating against them. Like we have a lot of tools and behaviors long before the LM showed up that support this development practice.
It's a mind shift. It's just a mind shift, just like any tool or extension that you've ever in soaved individual study or VISKA. It is how do I learn this tool? How do I become an expert at this tool to help me be more productive? As little or as much as you want to use you know, it depends.
You know.
It's just a slider bar, that's all it is. And to me, it's am I saving a minute, an hour a day? All of those are important. It's just a I can shave a few minutes, that's great.
It's another choice that you take before you sit down and write a line of code. It's like all right, here's here's what I have to do. HM, can sign it? Help me out here?
Yeah?
Can you know is.
It going to be faster for me to do it myself because I know, or is it going to be faster for me to create a prompt and blah blah blah and explain things and have the AI do it.
Example, if I want to like rename files or move things around or actually like change in name space, like Visual Studio is very good at that and it's very proficient. Right, if you move a folder from models to models, person people or whatever, you need to update the name spaces, It'll just do it for you. You could have prompted the LM. Now you're just burning tokens for no reason. Let the tools.
Let the tools be awesome at what tools are doing, right vs Code and Visual Studio are awesome at so many things without AI right that it's doing, you know, just inherently the static analysis. Let it be awesome at that, and then use the model for these harder problems to kind of solve as well.
Or just nuisance things.
Right, So I had I don't know a list of twenty properties that I had to boolly and check and if if the properties were true, then I had to express some HTML, right, and I had to do that for like twenty properties, but they weren't in alphabetical order, so you'd end up with a list with you know, names of things all over the place. And I just you know, told the I think it was chat Chiptia, just said can you alphatize this for me?
And yeah, no problem.
Copy paste the vs code website. We have these dev days going on, these community events. All the data is in like a CSV file. So I go into agent MO and I say, hey, I need to add And then inside the vs code websites a bunch of like you know, different blobs, different data, different things, and I say, hey, I need to add these five events. Just go update the site with these five events, and go update in these places and it'll take. It's like, this is CSV data.
It knows how to transform that and just put it. And then we also have locations of latitude and longitude. So I'm like, and also go figure out the latitude and longitude. It knows the latitude and longitude of you know, Portland, Oregon, for example, Right, I can figure it out, and of course I review it to make sure it's correct. It's not one hundred percent every time. And that's another part in part right it, it'd be clear it doesn't know
it looked it up. It looked it up, and it may have looked it up incorrectly.
That's let Yeah, I like it.
It does it exactly exactly. It's all the context that it has.
They all have brain damage. You got to pick your brain damage basically.
Well, let's start with they don't have brain Oh, come on, Richard, lighten up. It's just software. It is just soft software.
But it's easier for humans to engage with something when they treat it like another human. That's what we do with our dogs and our pets and our cars and everything.
I think it's a it's a big database. I think it was a big database that it's quarrying, right, But what it does is that it can querry that database kind of like you're saying, Richard's like, it's just a big database of stuff that it's pulling from.
But what it does is it.
Summarizes things and a thing that I can part Like I was just looking at example example out of the blue. We our dog has diabetes and we have to give her shots every day, the VET accidentally gave us you one hundred needles. We're supposed to get you forty needles. I actually have no idea what that means. Are they the same? The units look okay, they're different, Like they
are the same. So I just went into copilot on my at Microsoft copilot and I said, just like you're going shat Gypt, I said, what's the difference between you forty and you one hundred needles? And give me an analysis of like what this means and if there's conversions or anything. And it gave me tables, It gave me graphs, and it gave me warnings like these are not the same. You should not be using these internal No, it's two and a half times more. Now I could do all
of that research, all of that research. All that data exists on the internet, and if I went to Google or went to bing right, they give me that. But it gave me this nice thing that I could then share, I could keep in my memory. I now understand that I could go back to that's all these things are big databases of information, and it knows how to nicely summarize things for us in human form in a nice way that I can understand or tell it, to tell it to display it in a different way.
Right, here's a creative Here's an issue though, Right, A lot of people are using these AI things to get to gather facts and then they're satisfied with the fact that the facts look okay, and so you know, we we we're not going to double check because that's why we asked it in the first place, because we didn't want to go to Google and go to different resource
places and look things up. So I think that people are doing that, they're just you know, asking for facts, taking the facts as they are, not checking them and using them. I don't think that's right.
Now, I think no, I agree. I think it's the same thing with coding, right, like the code that's in the flow, Like I'm reviewing, I'm understanding, I'm doing that. I I I'm not when I say I'm you know, just in the flow and I'm just like accepting the stuff. I'm reviewing the stuff I'm reviewing what's generating, right, I'm not having an auto commit.
Right.
But in this case, you didn't know the difference between you forty and U two hundred, right, so you couldn't know.
Could not It was accurate or not.
Now that being sad, like you said, it's up. It's just like it's just like funnily enough going to googler bang and then opening a bunch of links. How much do you trust those sources as well to it?
Right?
So, the one thing that I do like about and what I how I use AI. Actually, surprisingly I use very little like AI chapbot, I don't use JGBT. I use Copilot a little bit for some research. It's not really my I haven't gotten into that flow of like how I want to quarry the Internet for this data, But I will say that the one thing that I do and how I use it is it gives me the links of where I got the research.
I always leble check. But I agree with you.
I don't think people are doing that, And I think, how do you bubble that up? So people know at least at high level did this come from? You know, CNN dot com? Did this come from the.
That I want at least three sources?
Right?
And if if any one of those three sources is different, now we have a problem.
Yeah, and you can always ask it to double check itself. I had it come up with some numbers. We're celebrating some number like fifty million Visual City users. It's like, give me some fun stats about fifty million. It just came up with something and was like, yeah, but really is that really true? And it's like, yeah, some of them weren't. I was like, okay, you know, ask it, like are you sure that that is writing? Is that correct? It's like, well, I was just trying to be fun.
Like okay, well, I was asking the crack type.
I was like being serious here, like let's go in you know, on this. So I think it is like with anything, yeah, any new tool, you know, making sure that you are reviewing all of all the input and output that that you have. Right, you can give it bad input and get bad output. You can give a good input and get bad output. You can get good input and get good output. But always having that human in the loop is super important and reviewing everything in
the world. Right, but also the same Right, if I walk down the road and I talked to five people and asked them about something, I might get five different answers, right, which one's correct? I don't know what are their sources. So that's how you look at it.
It makes a good case for us as developers because we are the guys with the knowledge and we can see whether that code that it general it is right or wrong, or efficient or inefficient. So it really really really works. AI really works for us. It's just in that whole fact based MELIU that I think problems arise and then it'll get better.
Well, and if you know the code is generating is in theory a set of facts about executing. It's just that there's an easy way to validate it. Yeah. But I think this behavior of you know, building a validation strategy out of every output is just going to be part of the reflex the same way.
Yeah, And I just don't think many people are going to do it.
Well, they will eventually. We all got better at searching the internet too. Sure, right like the early days it was worse. It's one would argue the peak has come and gone and it's worse. It's getting worse again. You know, we're back to this mechanism of having to validate more often and more completely, and for multiple sources. You know, the behaviors will change over time.
Well, this has been a fascinating dive into more AI, and especially with Visual Studio code and Visual Studio James. Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to doc to you, my friend.
Thanks for having me entirely too long since the last time. Yeah, anytime.
I'm sure if you have me back in two months, everything will be completely.
Everything will be difference, all right.
And check out coded with AI dot com and we'll talk to you next time on.
Dot net rocks.
Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O t any t r O c k s dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two.
Thousand and two.
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