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It keeps happening. I'm Carl, Carl Franklin, and I'm Richard Campbell. That's Richard Campbell. Richard, you're not home now. I'm in New Zealand. I'm this is the we're recording needs in November, and I am got the grandbaby with me and her parents and we are visiting all the extended family and traveling around the North Island. That's nice. Then we're gonna head over to Australia for a few days as well and see the Coogans and the Hunts. Nice and then
we'll we'll leave home at the end of November. How old is the little baby? Seven months? She's doing really great. Little little baby's do just thriving. She's enjoying herself.
Okay, and now this is your cousin's kid.
No, no, this is my granddaughter.
Oh yeah, oh oh, your granddaughter's with you there.
That's right. Oh that was the whole point. Bring the granddaughter, see my mom, and I'm my uncle and aunt and all that. But my cousin here that runs the farm where we're staying, has two little boys who are three and five, and they are absolutely enamored of her. For an obvious reason, the thing that would matter most to boys.
They handed her a remote control for one of the dump trucks, and the seven month old, not even know what a button is, grabbed it in a way that hit the button full boar, ran the dump truck into her father's leg. And now these two boys think she's the greatest baby of all time.
That must have been hilarious, hilarious, hilarious.
But they've been very sweeter, and she's just loving having little kids around her. So she's having a blast.
I remember when Claire was a little girl. This is my second The only thing that would make her laugh was when I hurt myself.
Yeah, made me laugh too, for faked hurting myself? Right, that's it? Yeah, No, crack her up, right, yeah, that's the best. All right.
So you're in New Zealand. So I had any good lamb.
Not a bit? No. I remember, I'm on a dairy farm. The freezer is full of beef. Yeah, okay, really good beef too, all right? Cool?
Yeah, Well, when you have some nice lamb, think of me take a selfie.
Okay, all right, I will.
Brady Gaster's here with us, but we're going to talk to him in a few minutes. First, we have a couple of things to discuss. First of all, this is episode nineteen seventy six, and so let's talk about what happened that year. Well in America, that is our bi centennial.
It is. Yeah, and it was an election year too. This is when Jimmy Carter gets elected. Jimmy Carter. God, that's right.
And Apple Computer Company and Microsoft were both incorporated in nineteen seventy six.
True yep. And Apple releases Wosney Ak and jobs make the Apple one, a single board computer, which they sell two hundred of almost immediately, and then announced the Apple two. And we'll talk about that next show.
So Sylvester Stallone began filming Rocky, which would become an iconic sports drama and the first commercial flights of the concord. Yeah, took place. In other bad news, the first recorded outbreak of the e BOWLA virus occurred in Sudan, leading to two hundred and eighty four cases. And they didn't even have Burger King.
Oh jeez, that's dark man, That is dark. Naia Komeny.
The gymnasts scored the first perfect ten in Olympic history during the Summer Olympics in Montreal. I remember seeing her and watching that on television and I was not eight nine years old, right, I was nine years old like you. Yeah. Sal Bellow received the Nobel Prize for his contributions to literature, and Betty Williams and Myriad Corrigan were awarded for their efforts and peace activism.
Cool.
Of course, there's a lot more. But what happened in space and tech?
Richard. On the space side, the first chest shuttle OV one oh one, originally named Constitution, was rolled out, but due to a letter writing campaign by a bunch of Star Trek fans, is renamed Enterprise. Oh that's great. Also in seventy six, Viking one and Viking two going to orbit around Mars. They have an orbiter piece that does surveillance and communications and then sends down a couple of
lander each these or twelve hundred pund landers. So they were big powered and land successfully on the surface of Mars, and of course the Martians blew them up and not They landed just fine. Everything was fine. You know, we could go deeper into some of the mission, some of the exploit they did. One of their attempts was to
prove there was life on Mars. The results were very inconclusive, and with our new sensors, we've later come to understand that the chemical reactions of the perchlorates and the soils of Mars would have confused the instruments on Viking. Well there you go. Were on the computer side, we already mentioned the Apple one definitely important is also the year that the Intel eighty eighty is released. I put one of those in an ne S one hundred bus machine and the z log Z eighty.
The Z eighty, Yeah, I think my ts TRS eighty Model four.
How does ED eighty and it absolutely so did mine. This is also a year that CPM is released that Gary Kildoll at Digital Research in his team, and CPM is the precursor to DOS, isn't it Well, DOS emulated CPM. CPM was just flying on its own. Yeah. The first version they have, the ibmpc that I ever played with was running CPM, not MS dots.
And also I had a friend who had a TRS eighty Model three that ran CPM.
Yeah, they all could, and then no one. Last one would be the Seymour kre. The very first crazy supercomputer is built for the US government. It is about a ten million dollar computer in nineteen seventy six. Oh my, and the machine is curved to minimize the length of the wiring to optimize for performance. Wow, first generation supercomputing.
All right, well, let's waste no more time and get right to better no framework, roll.
The music, all right, dude, what do you got?
So this came to us from one arn On axel Rod, and thank you Arnon for bringing this to our attention.
This is python net past. Guess this is cool? What is python net? Yeah?
Python net. Python net is provides interrout between Python and dot net in both directions. Oh cool, And it's a GitHub repo and we'll paste the link to that. So of course you can call dot net code from Python and you can call python code or embed Python in dot net, right, awesome, call python from.
So they could be friends. So there you go.
And you know this is good because dt net developers, I mean, we're kind of spoiled if you're just a dot net developer, right, anytime you have some new cool tool that says, oh you gotta download Python, like uh, I gotta what or oh you got to run node. But you know, being a polyglot, you kind of have to do those kinds of things.
But sure, you used to speaking JavaScript and you can handle some seqel. You can handle a little Python. It's not going to hurt anybody. It's not going to hurt anybody. Go fine, you'll be fine. It'll be fun. Right. Plus, you know all the kids are doing Python these days. Yeah, all the cool ones anyway, all the cool ones, especially the universities. And that I write more Python that I care to admit to. Yeah, but you know, I'm a I'm a data muna, right, and so I write a
little Python myself. I like my Jupiter notebooks.
Okay, awesome, here you go, So go learn it, know it, learn it, love it.
Who's talking to us today? Richard grabbed a comment off a show eighteen fifty one, which you did back in June twenty three with Savannah Ostrowski, which I did. I think we did at as show. I'm not sure, maybe not, but we were talking about the Azure Developer CLI. Yeah, and I know we're talking to Brady Day, who is all about developers and Azure and working all the things together. But it was particularly relevant to me because there was a recent outage on with Azure front Door that was
reaking a lot of havoc for asking the portal and stuff. Right, But one of the teams I was working with does all their employee deployees through the az dev CLI. They were totally unaffected. They didn't need to get they didn't need to go through front door, so they were happy go and command line for deployment. Makes your life better.
But Edward Keelholtz, who we know it in fact, I just saw him while I was in Europe, had this comment this gain from a couple of years ago, where he says, hey, the az Dev CLI lowers the barber embracing the Azured cloud environment. Using the CLI allows people new to Azure to generate full blown and serious infras code solutions. I'm just wondering if you always should. If you're not familiar with a certain cloud product, you should
be careful deploying it. It's easy to not secure the service properly, or you just put it in a straight v net. And I think the CLI will be strong in deploying app service plans before it deploys a web app, but it will also advise you, will advise you to put a web application firewall in front. I don't know if it does right now that maybe it should. CLI is a nice tool to get going faster, but you need to know what you're doing to protect yourself from security issues and high bill.
It's an old story. Richard and Patrick Hines likes to say convenience is the enemy of security and vice versa. So if you're going to secure it, that means you're going to have to enter your passwords and all that kind of stuff a lot more than you want to. But you know it's going to be a little bit more secure, so you're right.
I mean, I would also argue in favor of this sort of repeatabil AUDI. You know, command line stuff. As long as you follow all the steps you should follow, it only can be very secure. It's also very consistent and reliable. Yes, so you know, I just I'm keen
on doing the same thing every time. And if you haven't ever listened to that show, like go Back Over thirty, you know it's episode eighteen fifty one, and Savannah provided it is a great list of links for different tools, including the developer, CLI templates and things that'll just get you into good practices. Yeah, so, Edward, thank you so much for your comment, and a copy of music Cobuy
is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music cobe I write a comment on the website at don at Rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you comment there and I read on the show, we'll send you a copy of music go by.
And believe it or not, I have started Music to Code by track number twenty three.
I love it. Yeah, I've started it. If you so often you get an itch for this, right like you sort of, it's right, yeah, yeah, yeah, So I have started it.
It's it's pretty cool, you know, and it's just going to take a Saturday or something like that to sit down and finish it. But Music to Code By there's twenty two tracks. You can get the entire collection an MP three wave or FLAK format from Music to Code by dot Net. And of course, the whole point of it is to help you get into a state of flow while you're writing code and it works.
You know, it's been a while since you've posted a YouTube video about you making music of any kind. Maybe you ought to just record making that track. That's not a bad idea. You might want to edit down or something. I just see people will be fascinated to see the process you go through. Sure, that's a pretty crazy idea, you know what, I'd watch it?
Yeah, okay, you and a couple other people and.
Me and a couple of my friends. You know, what do you want? What do you want?
Brady was smiling as we were talking about Azure Cli. So let me introduce Brady right now, base near Seattle, Brady Gaster aspires to make it easy for dot net developers to party in the cloud. As the product manager behind Visual Studios, Azure Wright, Click Publish, and Connected Services features. He also helps with Aspire tooling support and Visual Studio and Visual Studio code. And we're not designing new tooling
features or building demos with teammates. He's trail running five k's Wow, parenting two teens and mixing new one hundred and seventy four beat per minute drum and bass sets or producing his own electronic music.
And I can vouch for that.
Brady and I were geeking out before you got on the show music Makers. Yeah, yeah, Brady, welcome.
Thank you, thank you. I've had like the whole series of like nostalgic moments throughout this conversation, like you mentioned, uh, you mentioned the until eighty eighty.
Yeah.
The other day we went to I don't know if you've ever been to like old school renting whenever you've been in town.
Not recently. They have this this that used to be just you all use car lots back in the day. That's how old schools. Like.
This is like a little part of town. And they've got this place called eight Bit Arcade.
I love it.
And they've got been there. It's cool, amazing, it's amazing. So they've got all these like old, old and new pinball machines and like my wife basically blew like ten bucks on this back man frogger or whatever. And the one that I fell in love with was this game called Gunfight, and I was like tripping out on this game.
And basically it's a quarter and it's two player automatically, and the stick goes up and down, and then you got another stick where you can aim the gun and then you hit the button to like shoot or you pull the trigger to shoot, and you've got ten shots, and you're shooting through like these cactuses and this like station stage coach, and like you only get like ten shots, and if you're it's super like super like super Pong level graphics, you know what I mean. So that game
was called Gunfight. But what was exciting about it is it was the first game to ever be built on a microprocessor, and the microprocessor was the eighty eight, right, And and it was also the game that influenced like Techan moratl Kombat, because it was the first game that had to go ahead to head, like it was like one side versus the other side a street fighter, and like all those games are like influence.
We are we are with the stories of the show numbers starting to bump into the history of video games. I got to make sure I include all of that because we did call out the first Pong and Colossal adventure and so forth, because it's all part of computer history too.
Oh my god, next show is going to be fantastic.
I've been taking notes for it.
So to get back to this arcade. I think it was Glenn Block that took us there last time we went. And it's this big warehouse, right and maybe what eight or nine rows of games?
Is that? The kind of is that the place?
I'm thinking that one's in Las Vegas. I'm sorry, that's Las Vegas. Yeah, that's that.
That place is dope too, But this is like this is like a little mom and pop place in like old school renting, okay, you know, which is like across the street from a tattoo parlor, across the street from a coffee shop, you know whatever. Like yeah, so there's like terrible parking and like whatever else.
Yeah right, sure, like tongue is proper.
So yeah, it's good.
So what are you thinking about these days? Brady's mind?
I'm kind of thinking about the you know, I was chatting with Richard and Lisbon my first time in Lisbon a couple of weeks back, and uh, beautiful, I was I was thinking about kind of the the intersection between you know, dot net and Azure as always because I've been in you know, dot a land since just after the Obama administration, and uh, I felt like it was like time to start working over in azreg and I've been like the Azure dot guy and the dot net
team for a while, you know, helping out with the tooling side of that. But you know, it was one day I was kind of sitting on the on the on the at the kitchen bar talking to my wife and I said, it's interesting, you know, VJ, my engineering manager, and I are in the process of kind of creating like more of an agentic experience in the chat window. It's like you're texting to the cloud, you know, give me you know, give me a web back, give me a Davis. And it's it's working really well, but it's
also kind of creating and existential. I'm like, this is really good, Like I can imagine this like going away and not going away for like you know, this this this way of going you know, going to the problem. And she said, how does that feel? I was like kind of weird, like I think you do, find something
else to work on. And then it was modernization, So now like that got between that interchange between modernizing your applications and you know, you know, bringing them from you know, dot net framework to dot net you know, core and beyond, which you know I've talked to you all about since as long as I've been at Microsoft. You know, that's
something we we've all done in our consulting world. But that's what I'm gonna be doing now is kind of working on the architecture side with some folks covering the you know, the the Azure side, uh, you know, to kind of make it easier for folks to kind of modernize not just one app or two apps, but two hundred apps, two thousand.
Yeah, this was a big part of the Azure Depth some I think it was part of the keynote is is how do we harness these I'm just going to call them code generators rady honestly because it takes a lot of the science fiction out of this.
It does.
We have a new generation of code generators that are really good at parsing certain kinds of code. And if you say, hey, take this dot nep for eight app, and what does it look like as a dot net nine or heck, dot net ten app? And the tool goes to work and does a bunch of the heavy lifting for you. Doesn't do everything, but it does quite a bit, right, that's kind a bit.
It's a process of iteration. Absolutely, you can't just expect it to un first.
You know, pass exactly. One of the things I like about it is you can y'all are probably heard of spec Kit, something we've talked about also the show. Okay, good good, Yeah, Well, I like the idea of spec in conjunction with things like, you know, modernizing your apps, and you know, worked on an experiment that was kind of inspired by it. Not I cloned their repo or anything, but it was, you know, the same kind of idea. It was interesting, you know, how far you could get.
But at the end of the day, I think, I think you're right, and I see a lot of the tools leaning in on that SPEC driven thing. Now it's like, don't just ask me one, don't expect you you can get what you want in one question.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
You know what I mean. Build you know, build me a banking app with support for at MS or you know, g r p C.
Like, no, yeah, let's break it down.
Yeah, that's right, it down. So if you if you work with the AI to like write those write those specs out. It's it's a lot more iterative to you know, a lot more manageable.
It's just like writing a novel. I mean, I would think I never wrote a novel, but you know that you started out by consulting the AI about an outline, and you get an outline together, and then you slowly fill in the details and pieces and see how they fit together. It's the same thing, you know, and bite off too big a chunk.
Yep, yep.
Yeah.
I thought you were gonna say, just like eating an elephant, kind of one bite at the time.
Oh, well, I have done that, and it is not easy, let me tell you.
And it took a long time.
I can imagine. Yeah, it's it's it's been cool to kind of see that the intersection and kind of you know, do that dance between you know, the wizard approach to things and then you know, the agentic approach to things and then the augentic approach to a thousand things. It's definitely challenging to think about that that process.
It does It does seem like a because you Microsoft has routinely built tools for migration. Yes, you know, migration advisors, like all those kinds of things, and they tend to be very specific and they get better over time, so eventually it gets lower lower a bar, like we're kind of sitting on a tool stack now with these new tools that they could be more generalized. Certainly, I've I've worked hard to get a basic application running, and see Sharp with those tools said hey, why don't you make
us in rush? And it's the switching languages for those kinds of tools. They don't care. It's all the same to it, right, dude.
I remember when dot net first came out and there was a VB six to VB net converter.
Do you remember this? Yeah? I remember, yeah, I think I knew some of the folks who work on it.
And I was disappointed to see that. What they did is they created a visual Basic interrupt library in dot net that had the keywords for visual Basic six but dot net arized and then all they did was they changed it to these you know, keywords or whatever. I was like, you're not really, you're not really moving to VB net.
You know, you're no.
But now, of course, in twenty twenty five, if there was something like that, and of course there is. I mean, there's these lms they could just directly convert from one language to another, like you're talking about Richard, and it's just so much better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was talking to someone the other day. They pulled up a really interesting uh UI component. You know, you know, I'm in the dot net space. So when I talk to somebody who's working with, you know, something not the dot net space, and they pull up a UI component I haven't seen, I kind of get really excited. I don't know if I don't know if you've ever seen what is it called? React flow is what it's called.
It's this fantastic react flow. Yeah. React flow. It's this great component you can set up like you know, like mind map type apps. And we got to look in at that, and I was thinking, like, it's really cool. You can just like toss the a Hey, I want an app that has a back end that looks like this and the front end that looks like that, and he goes, okay, hang on a second, you know, and it just kind of like turns that out for you.
That's always really interesting. But I think it's good to have context, you know, like like for you to kind of say I want this part, and I want that part, and I want this part A great yeah, yeah.
You have to go have that, otherwise you might end up with something that you're not sure what it does or why.
Yeah, exactly. Do y'all ever say your prompts as you progress?
Oh? Yeah?
Ever ever played that game? Okay, okay, that's always interesting.
I have a library of prompts.
Good.
I have a library of other people's prompts that's opp yeah, yeah, for for those who are keeping score, and also my prompts that I've created. But in fact, there's a whole library in GitHub of prompts just that that are for different things that people have created and Microsoft created it.
Yeah yeah, yeah, Well I'm more I'm more or less talking about like you open up you know, follow new folder you know or whatever. Uh you know, uh, and you start working on a project and you vibe coded or you spectra you know, you know, whatever you do, do you save the prompts that you use as you go along, Like at various points you hit the the new chat window.
But yeah, you know what I mean, only the ones that worked, Okay, I don't save the ones with the result.
Is you stupid little man?
I actually did experiment with that. One time. I saved everyone, and every time I would go there to hit the button, I would I would, you know, save that prompt It was zero zero one zero zero zero. And then and then I asked it at the very end, I said, Okay, I want you to make a basically a table of contents, you know what I mean? Okay, that is the kind of demonstrates the storyline of like how we got here together. You know, it's great, this is like act one, you know.
And I also want you to add like kind of a like a vibe summary, like you know, like like how Brady felt at the end of that. You know that that phase of the experiment. Wow, it's very interesting to look back at it and watch and kind of think, wow, it's an interesting journey, you know. But when I got out of it, it worked really well.
So every time I talk to people who are using these MLMs, I get things like this that I never thought of that, like that is just such a brilliant idea. But it's just when everything's open ended, sometimes we don't have because we don't have the constraints.
Oh exactly.
It's sometimes it's it's difficult to even think of things like that.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well well, well if you've looked up react flow in the last minute and a half since I mentioned that, because you're curious as to what it looked like, people check it out, you know, like like like like think about react flow. Okay, last from the past plus the ex SLC arguments list object to create a work.
So that hurts my brain.
Oh, we basically build biz talk and and and reactalk is back.
There's a whole bunch of millennials going what he because when I think biz talk, I think node and react that's what I think.
Wow, It's like it's like it's like those old J and B edge always come back to what you know?
Yeah yeah, but you know, look what is our lives as developers but getting dated from one place, munging it in some way and sending it on to another place. And that's what you just described, you know, always exactly right.
It's like this year's hierarchical, next year it will be in a relational again.
There you go.
Yeah, so yeah, what's what's what's our next topic? What do we have new shoes here?
Brandy, it's your show man. You tell us what the next topic is you got a great one? I talked about Savannah's the story of Azure or dev c l I and and he worked on that. Did you Uh No, I was, I was.
I was her biggest fan. It's funny, I'm I'm I'm sitting I'm sitting here looking at an azy D script I just write with help from GBT. Uh. Savannah and I work together because Uh. At the beginning of Aspire, I remember saying, guys, I think we need something that
will like talk to a cloud. So like, whatever we do with like the Aspire at the time it was it wasn't a manifest yet, whatever we do with a fire should probably emit some sort of intermediate language that like, you know, Azure could turn into buy SEP and a w S could turn into whatever Google.
Yeah.
Right, And they were like, nah, it's all she's sharp. And I was like, Okay, yeah, that's fine, that's cool.
Well, I'll just be here when you're ready to do that, you know what I mean, when you come to your senses, I'll be right over here.
Mitch and I Mitch and I ended up you know, Mitch filter prototype, and it was it was pretty hot and for reasons it wasn't time for it yet, you know what I mean, So we like didn't do it. But at the time I was talking to Savannah because you know, she was like, you know, like what's your what's your suggestion for working with this your team or that, like do this you know he likes snickers bars, you know, whatever, you know, and and uh, you know exactly you're getting
the reality of it exactly. That's old Skyka trick, by the way. But but we we we consulted a lot, you know what I mean. And I was a huge fan of the work that she was doing and in and in on some of the AI stuff. But at the time, you know, we were like, we need a cool way of deploying you know, Aspire apps to uh
to Azure. So we came up with the way that we we had at first, which was like emitting you know, like working really really tightly with a z D. But it was like such an easy button, you know what I mean. It was like such an easy button for a lot of folks. They kind of wanted to be able to break the glass, you know, myself included what we have now and Aspire is like amazing, It's like so much.
Better Yeah, it is amazing to rely on a D as well, but it has other options.
No, you have a lot of other options. I mean, it never relied on a z D like like what you would get out the other end, the easy, the easy part of it, like whatever you would whatever you get out the other end that would run through AZD.
Can I brag a little bit about about Aspire?
Sure?
This week?
Okay, I say this week's It was the week of eleven five. Okay, So Jeff Fritz and I did a code it with AI episode where we basically had a text to t SQL generator and we initially wanted to use an MCP, but it turned out that it's just not quite ready yet. It's still evolving, and we didn't want to show people how to install node and then do all this stuff and it turned out to be complicated.
So we basically just used an embedded MCP to get the table schemas for the four tables that were in our database, and then we use that in the system prompt and that was enough.
You know.
We basically said generate t sql from the following text prompt and it did it. But the thing about it was that we used Aspire to spin up an instance of SQL server in a container, and we didn't have to have Seql on the machine, we didn't have to have SQL anywhere, Nobody had to have a Sequel license. It went right in the repo and anybody can just download this app, download this code and run it, and Aspire will fire up the containers and we're running against Sequel.
And not only that, but we included the script to generate the database and it just freaking works.
That's cool, that's really And I was so impressed.
I had I didn't know that that was possible, and I was just so impressed.
That's cool. That's cool. One of the early stupid experiments that we did. Have you all heard about the rust thing. I'm sorry, Maddie.
Are you apologizing to Maddie.
I don't remember. I don't remember which release it was. It was like shortly after Maddie had like become the Queen of the Fire. But we, uh, so we were yeah, so we were were. Uh. She was putting together some slides, okay, and one of the slides was about the community Toolkit, all right, So she the slide goes up on the screen and I looked at it and I remember doing a double take and immediately I look at my screen and Jeff Fritz is I ming me and he goes,
I know you saw that. He goes, I know you're going to lose it. It's not what you think it is. And I looked and I went, was that the Face Punch Rust logo? And he said yeah it was. And I was like, is there a face Punch Rust integration for a spire that nobody told me about? And he said no, Maddie used the wrong logo, right, so.
That everybody else can enjoy the joke punch, So right, Yeah.
Face Punch is a game studio and they made a really funny game called Gary's Mod. It's built on top of the Unity with the with the intention of like super extending the game and like making it whatever you want. And then they kind of followed up and they built
an extraordinarily aggressive survival game called Rust. And there's a lot of different ways to play Rust, but it too is built on top of Unity and dot net And at the time I had been learning it's APIs to kind of kind of customize the game a little bit. And I remember I am Mattie and she was like, what do I do, and I was like, well, I don't think they like it when you use their logo in correctly, but I think this is going to be okay. And she goes, it's on Reddit and I went, well,
I got to get to work. So I built an Aspire integration for the game Rust that you would run the Aspire thing and you go get a coffee and make a sandwich and maybe maybe go for a run, and like when you came back the game Rust would be running on your computer inside of an Aspire orchestration engine. That's crazy, and here's your video. And she was like, thank you for keeping me honest. So that was our little that was like a twenty six hour like you know, Brady has to make it happen.
So it was fun.
It was a good time.
So has Neil Young complained about Rust yet?
I'm sorry?
Have you?
Are you admitting you built an interface to deal with misappropriated logo? Is that what you're saying? Uh?
Yeah, yeah, well I mean you put you put the logo out there. So then like I remember pinging Aaron and I was like, you're gonna put this in the community tolkit. He was like no, if it's like it's got base And like a couple of days later, I saw he and Pine talking about it, and he pulled up Rust and they both kind of snickered, you know, because Pine knew I was working on it. I was texting. But you know, I guess, like, here' there's some Rust fans on your team. It was funny.
It's a classic game.
It was like great, it was funny. That was great. Mitch had some comments. He was like, do I have to learn how to play Russ? Now? I was like a from It's like that. That's that would be bad. It's like a modern warcraft. I guess.
Yeah, all right, take a break, Richard, Yeah, we should take a break, all right, go ahead, all right, and we will be back after these few important messages.
You know, dot net six has officially reached the end of support, and now is the time to upgrade. Dot Net eight is well supported on aws. Learn more at aws dot Amazon dot com, slash dot net.
And we're back. It's dot at rock summerger Cavi. Let's call Franklin. You she is hanging with our friend Brady Gaster. Talk a little bit about, you know, his crazy career making all of us more productive.
How are y'all doing.
Yeah, I know, we're really grateful there, Brady, thanks much for this stuff. But it has to be harder than you came along. That's great.
I texted my family and I was like, I just have to give y'all some have to give y'all some love. I texted him and I said, I get to do a bucket listing today. Uh, I said, what are you doing? And I was like, I get to be on dot at rocks of these guys forever. And have you never had an opportunity or I've never been cool left to be on the show whatever that you have.
Yeah, you were on a panel at some point we just a.
Million billion years ago. Yeah, we don't know back in the day, but.
Yeah, that was the day I met Michelle Monthay.
Yeah, oh yeah, I tried to imagine. It was probably a while ago.
It was in Vegas. Vegas, probably cameras decided to blur, makes sense.
We were all together in Lisbon for sure.
Oh yeah, I was a good time. That was kind of a reunion of sorts.
It was. It was very much a you know, cadre of the old school studio and uh see, sharp speakers and definitely we went. We had a good time in two ways about that.
Oh, it was good. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, weather it was fantastic. Nice, nice to nice to enjoy that, it's.
It's a lovely area, and twos about it. What you what was your talk there? You were talking about this like the right path of cloud development with with with studio.
I was my first session that the first day was about, you know, visual Studio and Azure development, and like I kind of alluded to earlier, you know, one of the things we talked about were like the different the different Azure you know, the different Aspire features that we have
along like right click publishing. And one of the features that we added right before we shipped the last last update was being able to deploy one service at a time, so essentially that those VAS tools sit on top of a z D up And one of the things that I'd hope that we would get at some point was the be abley to sit on top of a z D deployee service right so if you had like three or four services in your Aspire app, being able to
multiple at one time. We were able to get that done right about the time you know right about the time we shipped that update, so it was like kind of fun to get that to get that in there,
but we got that done right then. And then the thing that I was most excited to be able to show was the various things that you can do using the GitHub copilot for Azure, which is essentially kind of the brand name for getting the Azure MCP tools inside of VS and VS code, and that was really fun to be able to work with Shane's team and case team to be able to bring that over to VS and to be able to literally say things like I want to deploy this app to the cloud, and it
kind of knows like go go download the pub xml file, do this, do that, whatever, you know, So that was really fun being able to I think I put published a video on LinkedIn. I could probably send you of doing an experiment with it. I sent Hunter a video and he was like, what's this And I was like, it's an empty API and worker project. He was like,
what do I do with it? I was like, look at the prompt So he copies the prompts, pay is it in, you know, pace it in, and it's basically build me a web q worker that sits on top of Azure storage keys, and it runs and it goes and it processed the whole thing and provisions everything and configures everything. And he was like, this is cool. Can I use this? Yeah? Yeh yeh yeah. So it was a lot of fun to be able to like do
those kinds of things. If you think about what we were able to do for years with connected services, we were curating like onesie two zi services at a time, you know, like this this month we had you know, Signalore, you know what I mean or whatever. There's like seven
thousand services and Azure, you know. So if you think about the idea of just sitting on top of those tools, and those tools sit on top of the A Z CLI or the a z d c l I, you know, just being able to call the tools and the you know, call the like you're done, you know what I mean. So it's it's it's nice, it's it's been it's been a great partnership.
I find myself not looking up the syntax anymore for all this stuff. Right, Okay, it just the co pilot spits out. The one thing it can is at least is syntax that will run. It might not be the thing you wanted to run, right, but it will out right where most of the time when I'm typing the syntax from the dogs, it doesn't run at all.
Yeah, exactly exactly. It's messed up. That's till I messed up. Yeah, it's it's it's been. It's it's been a fun partnership with them. Like I said, at first, it was it was, you know, wow, like a lot of the stuff that we were going to build, you know, we don't have to build. We can let the AI do it now.
Mm hmm.
And then it turned into wow, now that the a I was doing that for us, we can go build this right, And I think that's the way people ought to think about it, you know.
It's like, you know, yeah, I've had I've had a few conversations now with folks about what software just was never going to get built because our backlogs were so large and the barrier to entry to starting any project was so high. And as these simpler problems can be more automated or at least you get this eighty twenty effect, and a bunch of he lift, he's done, a bunch of the basic stuff has done it. Now you do
the heavy lifting parts. I just think we're going to make more software, you know, the same way when it got to use you to travel when the internet was introduced to that, you know, maybe there were fewer travel agents, but there was a lot more travel going on.
Exactly exactly. Well, one thing I think that you know, you were talking about how it's really just you know, moving data from point A to point B higher of course, you know whatever. You know, back in the day, we were using as m X, and then we were using wisdoms, and then we were you know, then we're using rest APIs. I really think if you wanted to you know, do you know the the acronym that you probably bund up as much as I've burned up open a PI versus
open AI. You know, if you if you think about you know, open a p I as the you know, description layer for back end APIs, you think about MCP as a description layer for those tools that the A I can use, It's really the same thing. You know. It's just like now your front end is an a c GP. It's just the chat wind to you know, we're like texting to all those tools to get what we want.
Yeah, kind of cool, and we used to do this with a search tool and a lot of cut and pasting and disassemble it, and now these new generator tools will largely put that together for you. You still have to push on bits and make sure it's correct, but you had to do that anyway because you screwed up too exactly. No, No, this is novel. We've all made mistakes, but it is faster. Oh yeah, it is.
You mentioned Condrent earlier. We were in a meeting one day and I was telling them I think I have an MCP tool that I can feed some stuff too to play MIDI ended up showing this a build and I showed him. He was like, stop, stop, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I was like, I'm typing the name of the MCP tool And he was like, why are you typing the name of the mc pole And I went because I got to call
it tool. He went, just just say play the note and I went, you're thinking too much like a developer bag.
He was.
He goes, look at the description put in the attribute Mike told you to write. And I read it and he goes, that's all think of think of it knowing everything, And I went, what he was sayl place play middle Seed, I write play middle Sea. I was like, he goes, okay, go go go experiment. So like that that turned into build them up.
So yeah, yeah, So Brady, what do you think of these uh LLM tools that produce music? And now there's some pushback on those for copyright infringement and stuff. But my friend, I have a friend who is not a musician,
and he's just enamored of this stuff. And I tend to think of it like, you know, the people who have who had in the eighties the cassio keyboards that had like the little rhythms and the tempo and all the buttons and stuff where they could make up stuff and then change the chords with like one or two keys in the bottom and then play stuff. I kind of tend to think of it like that. But then they listened to some of these songs and and I'm like, wow,
those are really really good. I mean, I wouldn't say they're good, like I would listen to them over and over again, like this is a great.
It's like it's not like Marvin Gay good, you know. But yeah, yeah, so I just.
Let's find another artist.
Oh is it not like he's fantastic, that's my point. Was a musical genius? Good. Yeah. I say that because I read an interesting interview with him where he was like, music producers are not getting better, you know any Uh? This gentleman that I gave, he's the only to Ben Jordan. He's one of my favorite and he'll become one of
your favorite YouTubers. He's an amazing musician and he's also kind of like a scientist, and he understands a lot of the things that you're talking about, and one of them is AI and he'll actually like take a, take a, take a. He'll buy a sample from He's got a show where he buys a sample from like one of the vendors that you can buy samples from, put it on his device, make his track out of it, and play it back to one of those like is it
is it copy written? You know? Tools? Yeah, and it will identify the it will identify like seven or eight different artists that those sounds came from.
Wow, And he's like, what do we do? Like you just watch me make this?
Yeah exactly.
Yeah, you know I was occurring to me. I was listening to a show where people on the radio were talking about trying to curb the creation of deep fakes and that kind of stuff with copyright, but there seemed to they seem to be more interested in copyright infringement
than deep fakes themselves. Like I'm I'm really concerned about somebody who could, for example, take your voice from this podcast and then any video that you have on the Internet of you talking and you know, turning into a confession of a crime or something like that, and then bring use that as evidence in a court of law. I'm really concerned about that. And it seems to me like if there's something out there that can identify pieces of a song as being you know, copyright infringement, wouldn't
it be cool? And I mean world change, like life changing if there was something where you could upload an image or a video and say, has this been generated by an AI and the tool maybe only with the tool that could have generated it, right, would have to have analysis deep enough to say, oh, well, it looks like this piece came from this source, and this piece came from this source.
But I don't think they do.
But if such a tool existed, we wouldn't have to worry so much about, you know, impinging on people's rights to create stuff.
Yes, let's say it.
Let's face it, that's a good thing when people can create things. But but then we would have a tool where people could defend themselves against being you know, faked.
Yeah, it's it's sort of like EXIF data for like like videos, but for wow, just yeah, see here's what and see here here's why I think that you'd really be onto something there. There are a series of podcasts about partly it's a very dark topic for your show, but the shows about folks who they get an it job.
You know, they like live in country food and they get an it job and then they're like taking in a bus with a whole bunch of other people to a building that looks like a hotel but it's actually kind of a prison and they have to hang out there. Those places. I've listened to a few podcasts about those places. Harrifying stories have They use those types of AI to manipulate people into scams like that, you know, right, and especially on.
The phone, you know, they find examples of I don't know somebody on the phone and then they make an AI of that and then they call the parents or whatever and say, hey, I'm stranded and you know somewhere, can you please wire me some money?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, I was really happy one day when after all the time, you know, all the different security works that I've done, and.
I know Barry, so you all know Barry. You know Barry.
So at some point exactly so at some point, you know, my my oldest comes in and he was like, he shows me the phone and he goes this year and I was like, good, yes, that was me. He walks away. It's like a password on me. I was like, yes, I.
That's right.
You know what, because I can't and I'm your father, brought you into this world, I'll take you out.
So yeah, it was kind of funny. Uh but yeah, we've we've we've had some security conversations in the house and now they know to come to me whenever they get a text saying this is you.
Well, yeah, I remember. Richard used to have that issue with his daughters if he ever wanted to. Instead of grounding them, he just like cut off their internetcess until they called him and said, god, Dad.
Let's let's be clear. Parenting fun at this fundamental level is about learning what your children care about and taking it away from them. That's right.
Love is like seventh orright on that list.
No, No, Usually I just do a VNC remote keyboard in mouse control and then write a little box, dear daughter, this is your laundry. I'm very sad being scattered all over the laundry room. I wish I was clean and in the drawers.
Oh, it's just me thinking of you.
Or if you just cut it off. We just cut it off, and you're.
So vaine you don't say anything, and then they just get to send you a message, says okay, dad.
He was always very clever. She came down and asked me, are you my laundry's conscience. Yeah.
On the other side of that door is the fourteen year olds the laundry. You know, doors closed for living.
Absolutely.
You know. Have you played around with the co pilot c L I.
I have not played around with the I'm embarrassed to say.
It's it's like so stinking new as of its recording that the only person who knows anything about it is Handsoman.
He showed showed it to me the other day. A team might have not showed it to me the other day. He's involved in some upcoming things that I think, but I I want it.
Yeah, it looks pretty good. Fritz and I might do a show about it next week.
But see, is it behind like some locked door or something.
I don't know. I will know later to day or tomorrow, I'm sure let me know.
Signal. Yeah, I'd like to have it.
I'd like to have it cool.
That would be cool. All these different There are too many co pilots, man, Like, it is hard. I know, it is hard to keep track of that many planes. Yeah.
I came home and I was like kind of complaining to my wife, and I was like, you know, it's super annoying that there's like I can do all these things with co pilot, and there's the stuff that I want to do with my MIDI and my CV that I can't do. I smile, and I was like, so I used I used so I used co pilot to design a three D rendering of the MIDI to CV device. I think I'm going to figure out.
That control voltage control have a controlled synthesizers and after.
Uh and then the next day I saw that device somebody.
But that's the whole thing you're speaking about. Now we can start just describing the problem we have and these tools can help us, even if necessarily get to a point of creating hardware around it exactly.
I had chat GPT write me a Windows console app that plays a midifile. Simple, but it worked. And I did that to diagnose a problem that I found was in my DAW, my digital audio workstation, that this particular midifile wasn't being played correctly, and my little C sharp player played it just fine.
Hmm.
Yeah, that was the whole piano thing that I talked about, Richard.
I have a piano.
You see this piano back here, Brady. So it's a Baby Grand It's Yamaha C nine I think I can't remember the name, but anyway, it has the symphony, which is a MIDI controller, and there's a selenoid under every key, and so not only does it act as a MIDI controller, but it will receive MIDI and then play like a player piano nice and I have and it's it's older, and it has this problem and I really couldn't figure
out what it was. But when I used it as a mini controller to record a MIDI file and then played it back from the DAW, it would the the sequence of a.
Pedal controller up and.
Down would be out of time, right, and so it would basically hold like there there was some weirdness about it. So I basically what I wanted to do with this is have a MIDI file of the artist recording UH in you know, with a drummer, because the drums aren't open Mike and pianos open mic everybody else can go direct and UH and then edit with MIDI and then play it back and record it at the same time.
And that wasn't working. So what I did is I have this little tool that I wrote that can playback a MIDI file and record and a wave file in stereo from that input the microphone input at the same time there in sync.
It's pretty money and I solve the problem that way. That's good.
That's good. But I love that because who does that?
Right?
Yeah?
Well, I remember one of the first things that I would chatted with you guys about in Orlando, in fact, was this idea that I had of doing like remote mini sync between devices.
Right, and.
Jamie ended up getting it working, but using signalare. So you signal are to pump it over a CTP and then like have a client that would just feed that over like to MIDI and I was like, hey, it's just three bites, like it would totally work.
But it's sync though it's not.
It wouldn't be insane. It's too slow. It's too slow to be in sync because I think, like anybody who's a drummer, I think it's like six milliseconds and you feel it, you know what I mean, So you know it's like it's never gonna work.
You know.
I mean, I remember we figured that out as the bar. We were like, okay, so you're going to have at least a nintisecond to get from the device.
Not anosecond. Up is better.
Although I actually have a balan that uses Cat six cable to go long distances where I can plug a midian a MIDI out on one side, mini and mini on the other.
But how long is long distance?
One hundred yards, like way more than a MIDI cable. And I actually use that to go around the room in the studio from my machine to the piano and it works great. It's pretty much instantaneous. I mean, I don't know exactly what the millisecond delay is, but you can't tell, but.
That could be in the millisecond range. Shine, it's not like you're going across the ocean. Yeah you know, now it's two hundred milliseconds and everybody knows.
Well, if you're going across the ocean, I think your best.
Bet would be UDIP. Yeah, it helps, but it's just I.
Could tell you a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.
Yeah. Nice, but if you tell it twice, the chances will ride once.
That's good.
That's gonna see what he did?
What's a this awesome wedding the other day? It was these two people who were both Wi Fi technicians. There were something that was awesome.
This is gonna be the all dad joke show. That's what it's gonna be.
I don't know where it is.
All right, well, five minutes left. Anything else you want to talk about before we hit the road? What have we not talked about? Work wise? Here?
I can't really think anything.
I mean, it's like kind of got through the whole thing.
I mean, it's I don't know when the show airs, but it's the beginning of November four, so it's the beginning of conference season, in the beginning of like, oh wow, we did a lot this year, Like how are you here? As? Was it wild?
The roster for that confience crazy, like there's so much in it and we haven't seen it officially yet, but you know, they it'll be out by the time this show is.
It's gonna be. It's gonna be.
It actually says on the calendar here that this will be out next Thursday, the thirteenth, next week.
Yeah, good, which is the week of dot com So I hope you had done net comfy. I know we did. Yeah, oh yeah, we loved it. Great time.
I'm recording the keynote, Denno right now, are my stanza of it? Because my stands up of it's hours long. It's a it's the process of going through the whole like open a framework app, convert it to dot at ten uh, and then put it through the paces of migrating it like moving your like getting off Windows a D and getting on intra ad or getting on intra id pard me sorry guys, and then like getting off sql local and getting in squl azure.
Yeah.
So it's been, it's been. It's been a fun set of a fun set of recordings. They aren't they aren't quick, but they're quicker than doing it yourself. That's one of the things we were talking about with spect Kid is it'll give you the different like, hey, this phase is going to take you two weeks to do, and you go, okay, do phase one and I'll go make a coffee and you come back and plays ones. Yeah, yeah, think of the time it siting.
That's cool. Yeah, that's the kind of bursts that we're getting, right, It's just like suddenly this thing is done, and I'll make sure I include a link to a good hubspec kit. But go back and listen to the show we did with them on it as well. Yeah, we had a we had a great conversation for that.
We had some good comments on Hybrid talk about that too, about that show that we're probably going to have to bring up in a couple of you know, a couple of shows from now or whatever.
Yeah, well, we're talking about fundamentally changing the way folks do development. And that's not an easy thing. Like people are really struggling with what's right, what's you know, what's the logical approach of this? Does this make any sense? You know, you're still seeing wholesayed folks are not our posed to it.
While I was in Orlando at dev Intersection, Richard I sat down and talked to Brian Noyes for a while and we were talking about the whole AI and the role of developers like our age in AI, and I brought up my idea of that we're no longer, you know, carpenters were more like general contractors.
Right. We have we hire all the different.
Pages to do the work, but we know we have to know enough about building houses in order to be able to supervise and to inspect and all of that stuff and to know when they're doing the right thing. And Brian said, man, I love that analogy. I'm going to steal that. And so literally two days ago or three days ago, I saw a post on LinkedIn by Don Demsak, remember Don xml, Yeah, and he said the same exact thing. He said, we're like general contractors. And
so this is resonating. And I probably am not the first one to use this metaphor now, but it's really true that you know, you have to think of yourself in a new role now, and you know what, if your plumber is out sick, you got to pick up a torch and do the job.
But in general, yeah, and you may even have a strength in trade, you know, lots of developers are using these tools and still writing pieces of the code they either want or write, or that they find that generators really struggle with. And so this is the part you got to write. Yep. But there's plenty of toil ish code you know, you need that the tools can make for you and one least thing you need to do, and you can keep moving forward.
Yeah.
But I'll tell you what, from the people that I talked to, the demand for good software has never been higher.
No, no, this is the same effect as the post Loudite explosion in clothing demand, the expansion in travel, Like you can already see an expanding need for software. Yep, it's really true.
So hang in there, kids, don't give up the fight and ais no excuse.
Just be the best you can be.
Yeah, yeah, all right, it's been fun. It's been fun.
You get the last word? What is it?
I really like what just Dean said. I think it was a build. She said something like let it help you amplify your productivity, you know what I mean, like like, let it get that stuff out of your way that you don't want to do, and also let it do the things that you know you need to get you need to get done. It can scale out and do seven or eight things all you do want. I love that general Contractor's cool and we.
Have the benefit of the compiler as the fact checker, right.
Or if you need it to be like a musical thing, you're the conductor.
Yeah, that's right. It's an orchestra and you're.
The MIDI controller.
I love it.
All the gen Z people are like, what's MIDI? What are you talking about? Oh, Brady Gasser. It's been an absolute gas having you on the show and talking about all these things.
Thank you so much. Thank you. That's been great, right, you bet, and we'll talk to you next time on dot net rocks.
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