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year, and you should consider attending no matter what. Ndcoslo is happening in June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslo dot com. The Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Early bird discount ends April twenty sixth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth through the eighteenth. The early bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot com. We'll see you there, we hope. Hey, guess what
it's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Camp Richard, where are you in the world Now? I am in Las Vegas where I'm at the Microsoft Fabric conference. This is their new data analytics stack. And so we're putting on a show with me in four thousand of my closest friends. You know what's crazy is that Kelly has a friend who we don't know what she does, but we know she's in it. And she said she was going to Vegas this week to go to some Fabric conference and I had no
idea what it was. And now I know she's hanging out with me. She might be and we'll talk afterwards. You can hook up with her, you know what I mean. I'm not saying we up. I'm just saying maybe made for coffee or tea. Because you're a brit you know. We're going to be back here in May for dev Intersection. Yeah. It's gonna be fantastic. And you're signed up for that one. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm going to be doing a Blazer workshop, I
think mm hmmm, yeah. I think it's called Carl Franklin's Blazer Workshop. I believe it is. So therefore I'm the only one that can teach it. I guess it's your workshop. That'd be dev intersection dot Com. Yeah, I hope we'll see you there. Restrictions apply, void, we're prohibited by law. Okay, order now get a free set against your knives. See it's five o'clock here, I have wine. Michelle is in Australia. It's eight o'clock in the morning. She just had brecky eight o'clock in the
morning. Tomorrow. She's in the future. Yeah, it's great love being in the future. I wasn't going to have a bowl of seal, but then I sat here and I was starving, so I was like, I bet it eight alluhs, I'm not gonna last. So your podcast, you're not gonna make it. We make a long show. We need to shine. Yeah, exactly. You know, our hardcore listeners know that whenever we do shows later in the day like now, that we tend to get little punchy. So like, you know, I'll sell a glass wine. You
don't believe Michelle such a serious person. So right, I don't know how this is gonna work. That's serious. All right, Well let's get on with better no framework. All right, dude, what do you got? I got something that's interesting and a little scary. I like it. So this is a paper that came out from Microsoft on March thirteenth, This being Show eighteen ninety two. You can go to one eight nine to two dot pwoppwop dot E. It's a Microsoft paper entitled autodev Automated AI Driven Development,
and I'll just take the most interesting in sixtync paragraph from it. We present autodev, a fully automated AI driven software development framework designed for autonomous planning and execution of intricate software engineering tasks. Autodev enables users to define complex software engineering objectives, which are assigned to Autodev's autonomous AI agents to achieve. These AI agents can perform diverse operations on a codebase, including file editing, retrieval,
build processes, execution, testing, and get operations. They also have access to files, compiler output, build and testing logs, static analysis tools, and more. This enables the AI agents to execute tasks in a fully automated manner with a comprehensive understanding of the contextual information required. You know, Richard, anytime I hear AI and fully automated in a sentence or a paragraph, I get the willies well, that's just your crap detector going off, gone
what sure? Yeah, well, I mean fully automated kind of means that it has, you know, it has unfettered access to things. It's building software. Right, Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't. I think I think a person wrote that line and hasn't made it true at all. It's a paper, not a product. Yeah, but eventually, eventually this is going to happen, right, I mean, And the whole idea is that software developers may, in fact, in the not so near distant
or distant future, become more supervisors than developers. Well, one would argue they already are. They mostly supervise the utilizational libraries and glue them together. Boy, you're just a curmudgeon, aren't you. You're like the AI curmudgeon, got it'll never work. I'm just more of a Hey, you know what, I've seen this play a bunch of times. Someone still has to do requirements gathering, some still has to describe the problem space, someone still
has to validate it. You know. The code writing was the simplest part. Yeah, oh did I mention this? It only writes Python lovely. Well, that means it's all c under the hood anyway, So there we are. Yeah, no, no offense to our Python programming listeners, because Python is probably the most popular language in the world right now. It's yeah, absolutely, and it's awesome. Yeah, what is the first javascripts?
You're probably right? Yeah, yeah, I thought you were gonna say, Jason, and I was going to be sad because it's not a language. It's for that. He well, anyway, that is when I have it's it's certainly we're certainly creeping to this. And and I remember having this conversation with you on dot net rocks in the two thousands Richard, yep. And
do you remember. I got to look up what show it was and maybe an alert listener can remind us. But I said, you know, there's going to come a day where a business person can walk up to a machine and have a conversation with it, you know, either typing or English or other language, and tell it what the requirements are and it would spit out a fully ready to go qualified application. And you said that will never happen. Yep. And it still hasn't. Yeah, it still hasn't happened yet.
No, but but you know, but we've seen we've seen papers like this before the actually making it happen something else entirely, and I would point you a copilot and power platform. Yeah, although you find the average business person cannot describe a business process adequately to explain it to another human, much less to a piece of suf. There is that problem. Yes, yeah, Actually breaking down workflows is hard. It takes skill, and it takes time. It does, and it also takes some kind of uh, some
kind of thing that we don't think machines have yet. Software machines don't have anything. It's just software. Yeah, programs. I guess. All right, Well enough of the philosophical bs. Let's hear who's talking to us today. Richard Gravity comment tub show eighteen fourteen, the one we did with one Michelle Mannering, you know, back when she was still Michelle Manoring at NDC Oslo. We did it in person talking about this product called get hub Copilot.
It's the thing that's going to replace all developers. As I recall, absolutely and Trudje and said, I've been kind of slow with gethub Copilot and midtally this is now a year ago, but I started last week. This week I got repaid in full. I cannot understand why I hadn't tried this earlier. The suggestions from visual Studio good, but this is brilliant. My current project is a CE sharp Blazer application using Entity framework for creating and seeding
test data to a database with repeating patterns. After the first three or four entities, get hub Copilot got the grip and wrote almost entirely correct classes in just a few time. That's because it was trained on Blazer train repos. Come on, there you go, that's what it's all about. Yeah, it's all about me. However, the difference is between the eneities made it hard to just copy the whole class and change them the names Copilot did that
the first few times. By for it embraced pattern and created the unique code I needed. I guess the result was about ninety percent. It required some fixes, but all in all, I save so much time on the single project that I guess get hub Copilot has counted as free for the next few
years for me. I'm seriously impressed. You know where get hub coopilot really really works well for me is if I have things that repeat, like I've got five or six lines that you know, I'm working with data in a grid and there's controls in each cell, right, and it understands that I have the what the data and the headers are in the grid, and I make one of these blocks of six lines and then it just starts spitting out the rest of them and it's like tabin or tabin or tabin or taber.
What I don't like about co pilot and Michelle will probably jump in here and either agree or disagree with me. But what I don't like about copilot is when it tries to read my mind and it's almost like like, okay, here's a story. I have a customer in the studio who wants me to work on mastering this solo piano CD right, and whenever I say, you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna and he goes, where are you going to turn down the volume there? Or are you going to bring up
to five K there? Or are you going to be able to And it goes on like four or five times, and then I just look at him like, will you shut up and let me say what I'm going to do? This would go faster. I have two answers, see you that go ahead. So the first one is get off a copilot can't actually rad your mind as feels like it might be able to read your mind. All it's doing is taking context from the file you have opened. Any other open files
sounds like you use visual studios if you have other open tabs. It's taking the context and that so sometimes client exactly So sometimes it does feel like you're like, oh, it is trying to read my mind. You're like, just just wait, like I am going to so a couple of things. You know, you can just ignore it and keep typing over it, or you can turn in line suggestions off and mostly use to get up copilot chat
picture. Yeah. What I like is if if you make a comment about exactly what you want to do, and then it's pretty really really good about you know, coming like Richard was saying, if you're able to articulate very clearly what you want, you're going to get a response that is much more or much closer to what you actually need as opposed to it just actually trying to read your mind. Because as much as it feels like all these ais can read our mind, they really can't. As I mentioned before, it's
a bunch of software. It can't read your mind. It can only take in the context you're providing it, and it's data training set that it has been already trained on. It's a good suggestion to turn off that inline stuff, especially when it starts spitting out one hundred online of code solutions and you finally your screen fills up with gray bloody blah they God help you if your present, you need to go. It's a great technical term. Great blare
to use that. I like that. Let's say that today Hey trying. Of course, you kicked off some great conversations. Thanks so much for your comment. A copy of music Cobey is on its way to un if you'd like a copy of music Codbey. I read a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you comment on the show and I read it, we'll send you copy music Goby. And you can definitely follow us on Twitter if you like.
We've been on Twitter for a long time or ex or whatever the hell they call it these days. But the cool kids are hanging out. I'm Master Don, I'm at Carl Franklin at tech head Social, and I'm riche Campbell at masadon do Social send us a tuote, and of course, if you're looking for more ways to get in touch with us or Meme particularly, you can go to Carl Franklin dot com. Okay, let's bring in Michelle. That person who was interjecting her brilliance there Michelle mish Manner's Duke no longer
mannering. Congratulations on your marriage much Yeah. Michelle Duke is a multi talented personality in the tech and gaming communities. As a developer advocate, she gets to create awesome experiences and engage with the vibrant GitHub developer community. Michelle has spoken at over two hundred and fifty events on topics like AI, the future
of work, communication, teamwork, and has given technical demos. She is a respected leader in the hackathon community, having one organized and mentored over one hundred hackathons. Michelle has founded several tech companies, including an AI company, an e scooter business, and as a result sits at the forefront of Alburn science, tech, esports and startup scenes in her spare time. In air quotes, Michelle is a streamer journalist and is always working on something exciting.
Catcher at an event or streaming on Twitch or on dynam Rocks yeah. I actually haven't streamed for a little while. My computer broke recently, so I'm reduced to doing not gaming and streaming at the same times. It can no longer handle that. It's really hard on a machine to do to run OBS
and the game and you know, and all the filters and stuff. Yeah, so I'm usually running OBS, the game a chat feature, which is a JavaScript program that is scraping on my chat, my Twitch chat, so I get to keep that and recording, and it's just it's got to the point where I'm like, how old is my computer? Now? Okay, it's five years old. I definitely need a new once, so I haven't Why do I smell smoke? The benefit the benefit putting your tea on the
gun the CPU? Right? Yeah. No, It's one of those things where like you turn the computer on and it just like loudly beeps at you because there's something wrong and won't turn on, and you're like, now, I really, Or when you're trying to write a presentation for someone and you realize it takes off full twenty four hours to render the demos within that presentation that are like a couple of minutes long, and then you're like that's not
right, sounds broken. It's like going on your computer on its way until then. Yeah, so it's ordered, it's ordered. It's actually one of those like fancy custom build ones tourn. I've got my graphics and branding on it, and it looks it looks really awesome, like we just came back from our honeymoon from Japan as well, so it's all Japanese theme and oh I see, Yeah, timing matters. You were very Japanese centric when you're giving a design, So tell me it's fancy on the inside as well.
Yeah, yeah, X five, forty nine ninety like something crazy. It didn't quite go for the forty ninety. They're a little bit pricey still. But yeah, we're up there. We're in like the forty eighty series. We're in, soyeah, you go, that's right up there. Yeah, exactly, thank you. I built an EPC during the pandemic and it's an I nine and my fan is just about as deep as high as the case is deep, and it's just one big looks like a radiator on a seventy
four corvette. You know. That's literally what they are, though, like the radiators. So my one that had my old here was like this big sitting which is about thirty centimeters big, sitting on top of a tiny little like seaping chip that's like a couple of centimeters wide. And you're like, why, but I've never had a more quiet computer in my life. When I built the old studio, Richard, do you remember, I put a hole in the wall so I could put the computer behind the waller room in
a different line I don't have to do. Yeah, yeah, I got water cooling, water cooling, Yeah, o sid, I got water cooling in the new one. It's that's how we know. And I also did it like with one of those things where you're just like, those are unnecessary amount of turns you've put in the water cooling and it's awful. Looks like oh show, Yeah I got rid of the phase change. Coolers are good
enough. They're quiet enough. Use the big fans, the one forty millimeters, the fourteenth centimeter ones are quiet, like you can get a machine right down. Yeah, yeah, I mean, no reason to go hard. I have water cooling, but then I also have ten fans in the computer as well, so I mean there's very nothing succeeds like excess, right, that's my line fully JFA everything like it's going to also use some photos when it's done. It looks pretty cool. So, speaking of good co pilot
stuff, are you really going to adopt the grit? What did I say, Gray bloody Blash, the Great Bloody Blas. I use GitHub copilot a lot. I do. I do leave the inline suggestions on because I like it, but I also use the chart feature quite a lot. It's just the things you can do these days are just incredible. Like we heard from the quote that Richard read out that it's saving lots of time. I've literally just read like four or five articles just this morning on various companies and how
their productivity has gone through the roof of using it ub coke pilot. Even you mentioned we got married recently, so like getting good developer, when you get married, you turn to GitHub. So I use get up copilot to build our the website for our wedding, and instead of taking like two four weeks to build it, which probably what it would have taken me, it
took like eight hours. And the fact that it was able to suggest to me like things I didn't really or probably wouldn't have quite thought of, like it. As I was going through it realized what I was doing, which is building a website for my wedding, and it said started suggesting things like, oh, would you like a countdown time on your website? How about
a light box to show some lovely photos? The text version of Clippy, isn't it basically like when you think about like, you know, all the memes popping up is about you know Clippy and can I help you with that? That is lit get up copilot is doing with your cod is like I se you did agree? Is it a business grave or a personal grave? No, it's for you Clippy, for Clippy Clippi. Have we defined really
a difference between because get how copilot chat came later? Right, the original co pilot they didn't have the chata No, So the original co pilot was the inline functionality. So the new getub co pilot has the two types of functionality. Has that inline line congestion, so as you're coding, it will
show up that grade out text that you can accept or reject. And then there's the chat feature, which is a little bit more like some of the other ais that you may have interacted with, where you go in and you type out either a question or something that you want done, and a copilot can not just provide you with the code snippet for that, but a small explanation of what it does, and maybe if there's any elements within that code
snippet that might need to be changed before it gets inserted into your code, and then you can just insert that straight into your code block and it's same as the inline code. It is built into the editor you already use. So the GitHub coropilot Chat for vas Studio came out the end of last year, so people have been able to use it since then. We just launched I believe, let me just double check get a propilot chat for jet Brains.
It was on a wait list, I believe it is now it is now generally available as of this month, so like only like a couple of weeks ago. So now you can use it in Visual Studio and jet Brain's IDs as well. So you have that get ub coropilot chat funct now. So that's yes. Now I've used I've used chat GPT to help me with programming things, and I've used GitHub copilot chat and the biggest difference that I can see is that GitHub copilot Chat knows more about your application right off the
bat. You don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to pace your entire project to chat GPT like you do with So the two main advantages of Get up Copilot chat over say something like chativity because a lot of people are saying, well, chat tip t is good. It does provide me with code suggestions. It's like, well, think about it. Chattivity is being trained on everything available on the Internet, and there's code on the internet.
Your think stack overflow. Even so chat tivit has that context behind it. But GitHub Copilot chat because it's built into your editor, it has all that context as I was kind of hinting at before, which is it has the context of it being not just trained on everything on the Internet, but having it trained specifically on code. So it's much more It understands code a lot better and is optimized better for code. So that's the first point in that
it's training model is much more giared towards understanding code. And that secondly is it has so much more context. So if you're using visual Studio, any other things that you've written in the file that you've already got opened, that's context, we get up copilot, any other tabs that you have open, so other files that you have open either in one of your jet Brains ideas or in visual studio or vs code. If you have other files open in
tabs, get up copart can see all of that. And that is all context, which is why when you're writing things, you might be like, how does it know what function of called something the file? How does it know what that class is called? It's because it has that context. And the other piece of context it has too, is your entire project structure. So while it can't see what's in each individual file, it can see your
folder structure. So that means it can do things like, you know, if you're writing a website, say, for example, it can point and have the you know, the proper location pointer to your CSS file for example, because it knows where you've stored it, it knows what it's called, and all those kind of things. And because it then has that folder structure, it can then see the extensions of all the files, which means it knows what languages you're trying to write your project in. So it has a
lot more context. And chat chat doing context chattivity has is its training datap just everything on the Internet and the prompt that you give it. That's it. Yeah. One of the real problems I had with chatchipt, and I'll tell you a little story just happened to me. I have this little tool that I used to mege all of our YouTube videos and by hours, I
mean, you know, the dunt neet rocks. Every show is published to YouTube, and the speaker publishing system that we use doesn't set the flag that says it's not made for kids when they publish a show to YouTube, and so you have to go in. And the reason why that's important is because there are no comments. If it's made for kids, comments are turned off, so people can't comment unless you set that value. And it has to
be set when you're creating the video, when you're uploading the video. The reason and the reason I know that and I found it out is because I had this conversation with chat gpt about how to set that after the fact, and you know, it gave me the solution and I said, here's my code boom, you know, and it said, okay, well, if this is the case, then here are the things that you can check.
I could see my code but it's still told me that I should do things that I was already doing in my code, right, and it's like you can see this, You see that I'm doing that. Why are you giving me? And the reason is is because it didn't have an answer. The answer was and it didn't know the answer that it's a read only value. You can only set it when you upload a video in the API. You can only set that flag it's available, and you can try to set it.
But it didn't know that. Yeah. So chativity is smart but doesn't know everything right, doesn't Yeah. And there's a really really great keynote at one of the n DSA's recently on the different types of ways that charativity and all the ais can get things wrong. So one of them is it just doesn't have the facts, so it makes up something. Or the other thing is it doesn't have enough information and while it's providing you with information, that
is what they call grounded. So it might be true for something else, but it's not actually true for the context you'll talk about there. It might have already been true in the past but not anymore, yeah, Or or it's true for something else. So for example, when I asked chatter TIPT to write a bio about me. It gets some things right, and then it says that I have a PhD in like chemistry, which is incorrect. I didn't know. You're so clever, I know, right, which is
I mean, I don't have HAD. I didn't do chemistry, I don't have HD. But that information is grounded because there's another Michelle Manoring out there who lives in New York who potentially has PhD. Right, So the information is grounded, so it has a base in fact, but it is not actually correct for me, and chat to PT can't distinguish between what we're trying to ask about. The other example she gave was, you know, write
me a or give me some information about this airline. I'm going to use Duke Airlines and exactly you know, tell me about Duke Airlines and chat units that would be you're going on how it was an amazing airline, it was always on time, top customer satisfaction, It flew like lots of roots around the world and had like a fantastic and it doesn't exist, and you're like,
wow, this sounds really good. Doesn't exist, right, So that's the whole Like AI hallucination thing where it just the thing is when you come when it comes to the when it doesn't know the answer, it will just say, well, I really have no you should It should work right. It does. Sometimes it's like I can't tell you any further, and then other times I shouldn't. It doesn't say that something that just makes stuff up.
Yeah, it just makes stuff up. Or it says, well, clearly there's something wrong and you should check all these things that you're already doing. But you know, a human would figure out a way to go look for the answer. I was going to say to you. What I think is interesting is that this is again a personal opinion. But what I think is interesting is I doesn't mimit humans. Because you're saying a human will go
and look up the information, you'll find it out, not necessarily. I mean most people, most I know, if they don't know the answer, they'll make it up on the spot because they are incredible or worded. People believe them, so they're off, you know, providing incorrect information as well. I mean I'm definitely one of those people. I'm like, look, if I don't know the answer, I will go and find out for you because I know usually know where to get it from. It's the best of
being human and the worst of being human at the same time. And that's what I think you're getting a chat chibert right, it's they train and everything available on the internet, you know, not everyone the internet is good.
You do splash. So yeah, I think you're going to get those times just give to just like to see, you know, at one point, you know, when it doesn't know the answer, say well, aliens must have something to do with this, right, you know, just like start spouting conspiracy theories at least it that way that this is how I want you to respond when you can't answer, I suppose. So, yeah, you
know, just making software do even dumber things. At the same time, I've they're talking to some pms and they're I mean, it's not small productivity provements. It's thirty percent a more code in less time, higher quality, less remediation. Like these are big numbers. Yeah, yeah, I've got some stats here. Actually they're just pulled up from a potent exactly what company, But they said that their developers reported ninety percent increase in writing better code,
which I just think is insane. It's kind of subjective statement. It is a little bit, but fifty percent more builds, which is not measurable, which is measurable, eighty four percent increase in successful builds. I think it's really cool. That's pretty big number. It's a pretty big number again and a little bit more like subjective on like ninety percent of them feeling like
more satisfied and fulfilled in their jobs. Well, and that's the interesting part about this, right, is that here's this tool arguably doing some of you
work for you, but you love it. You love it, and what I think is really good, And this is something that came out from some of the original research that we did when get ub copilot was first introduced, and this is before all the chat stuff too, is that developers reported that they, yes, get ub copilot was writing a lot of code for them and you know, doing that, but they actually had to think less when writing code, which I was like, it's not a bad thing, but
they follow up that statement with I have to think less, but when I do have to think, it's about the fun stuff that sets off that spark that makes coding fun again. And I think that's what I think is really great about a lot of these ais. It takes away you know those blockers. You know, we often get writer's block or coder's block, So it removes those blockers, so we're not seeing there going or where do we start
again, So it removes that side of it. It writes a lot of that repetitive, mundane code for you so that you're actually able to sit there as a developer and do the thing that you would train best to do, which is solve the problem, like what is the best way to do something? If I give a problem or a task or project to fifty developers, I'll probably get fifty. Some of them might be similar, but there's going to be different ways of writing things. We all know as developers there's multiple
ways of doing something, and that's what you know. Some get up copilot as well. It will often give you multiple suggestions or if you rephrase a question, you'll get a different response. So I think the best thing about being developer is actually looking at what we're doing and going what is the best way to actually solve this and what is the best way to take this on?
I think what's really exciting. This is another personal opinion. We got to take a break, but we'll be right back after these very important messages, and we're back. It's starting at rock some Carl Franklin, that's Richard Campbell and that is Michelle Mishmanner's duke, and we're talking about get hub,
copilot and AI and all those cool things. And you were just saying that you think it's really great for removing those blocks, those things that you were working on that you may have said, you know what, I'm going to sleep on it or whatever. Now you can get there quicker. And I was just going to add that it's also good for you to take inventory of write down the top ten things that you haven't learned because you were afraid to too busy, or you thought it was over your head, you could never
figure that out. Whatever. Take that list, go through it one by one with co pilot or you know, your favorite AI, and you'd be surprised at how fast you learn these things. Yeah, and so yeah, what I was going to blow everyone's mind was my personalia. So what I think a lot of these iis and things are going to do. Like if we look back through history, we say where a lot of new technologies are coming and people being really upset or skeptical and one I like to look at
is writing. So when writing was first like widely invented and adopted, people got really worried that we're all going to become dumb because we no longer needed to remember the things we need to remember. So if I needed to note something back then, I was there. You were there, you were there, Yeah, I was there. If I needed to know something I had to remember, I could just write it down. I mean even today, like I don't have to remember. I mean I still remember because I've just
got stupid photographic memory. But I don't have to remember. You're absolutely right about that. Like I don't have to remember my husband's phone number, my family's phone number, my work phone number. I mean, I remember all of them because again, photographic memory. But we don't have to. We've
got a phone that does that for us. We were talking to Richard, we were talking to Grant Barrett from Away with Words, and he mentioned that in Aristotle's time, when you know, when people were writing handwriting, you know they were these guys were against it because they thought, well, if we're if that's cheating, we write it down, we can refer to it
later. We should keep everything in our mind. Exactly. But what actually happened instead of everyone becoming dumb, is there's this massive wave of innovation invention because all of a sudden, people's minds were freed up from having to remember stuff that they could actually think creatively. And I think that's what's going to
happen. I think I'm bigger problems at a higher level exactly. So I actually think that's what's going to happen over the next five to ten years, is we're actually going to solve some of the world's biggest problems because all of a sudden, people's time is free to and you know, it's the fun stuff. We don't have to sit there, you know, doing a lot
of that mundane competitive stuff. We can do what those original developers are same when we did the research, start to get up copilot, which is it sets off this spark which makes things fun again, right, so we can now spend more time actually, you know, thinking about how to solve these problems. I think we're going to get this big wave of just cool stuff happening. Again, this is all personal opinion, but I think we're going to see a lot We've already had a wave in Richard, I'd be interested
in what you have to say about this. But we've already had a big wave of people using it for nefarious purposes before you know, the and it's a game of cat and mouse and ketch up with the you know, the authorities in the security business. But not in gethub copilot. No, no, no, no no, I'm just talking AI in general. Yeah, but you know, I was thinking more in terms of the productivity boosts we got when we got the dot net framework. Oh yeah, and you already
had an encryption library. I already had sockets and like you didn't have to write all that stuff. And all the C plus plus programmers were like, Dad, I don't want that's so lazy. Yeah, real programmers allocate and deallocate their memory manually. Come on. Like, I just think it's a really exciting time. Like I know a lot of people to get worried about the whole you know, what if it takes my jobs and what if it does this? And you know what, I again, personal opinion, there
are going to be some jobs that get get lost. That's just the reality of every industrial revolution should move hard over to us, you know, since the dawn of time. But I think with this song. What's going to be really interesting is the majority of people aren't going to lose their jobs to AI. They're going to lose their job to another human who's using AI.
So the people who can understand how how these things work, so understand AI, understand the capabilities of AI, but more importantly understand the limitations of AI, and you therefore, yeah, therefore, where they can add value as a human, they're the people who are going to have jobs. It's exactly my position. Yeah again tall personal opinion. I may play the role of a lad eight for you know, for communic effect, but I'm absolutely with
you on that that you know this is not something to be feared. You have to you have to jump on the horse and write it. So if anyone is listening of like, okay, that sounds good, what do I do, like, actually go and start using AI. If you're not using AI, you need to start using it so you really understand what it can actually do and then what it can't do if you And it's hit me that developers uniquely sued for these kinds of tools kind of sad. Is the reason
Get Help Copilot took off first? Yes, because we get it. It's just another kind of coding to describe a task to the tool, But do you still have to evalue it. We're used to criticizing other people's code and our own, and the compiler always gets the same. And you're right, Like, you know, a lot of people just think, well, you know, is it going to be this age where get up copil it just
writes code and ships it off. It's like, no, that's that's really stupid, Like no one would do that, Like, no one would you give a project to an intern and ship it off before you know, before checking it. Right, it's kind of the same thing to get up copile.
In a way, we kind of go to treat it a little bit like an intern in that sense that you know, we as developers are responsible for the code we ship at the end of the day, regardless of how much of it was written by an AI, which means as developers, we have to be responsible for checking the code, checking the security of it, you know, doing all those kinds of normal things that we would do before. And I like your actorism, Michelle, because I'm sure people are going
to do that. They're just going to get well, you know, back in the early days of chat GPT with a lawyer asked for citations from chat GPT. Yeah, go fictional ones and fictional case. The soft there wasn't in trouble, the lawyer was, the court doesn't care. But there was an article recently about someone who used chat GPT and they didn't even bother changing like you know, it was like hi, insert name here, like they didn't changing any of that stuff. And you're like why, like what's what
is wrong? Like lazy? Are you? Yeah? Exactly? I have to bring up something here. My friend and aphoenex colleague, Brian uh sent me this thing called pseudo no Suno suno app dot suno dot ai and it's apparently this thing that can generate music and it sounds like anything that you could hear in a genre specific radio station, right, and we complete with singing and lyrics and everything. And he thought this was the coolest thing, and he said, so what I've I let it go for about a week.
Hecaes, what, no comment, And I'm like, Okay. From a technology perspective, it's pretty impressive, but from a music perspective, it's soulless and soul draining and just like crushing. Yeah, because because what it does is you know, if somebody actually puts out a hit record, you know that's completely generated by AI. It takes away all the integrity of real artists that are doing real things. And it's you know, for the musicians out there, get busy, you got a tour, Yeah, you got to
let people know that you're doing it for real. It's the same, right, right. You know, I mentioned in my bio I'm a journalist, right, so a natural a lot of people asking me, you know, are we using chattivt And it's like, well, we're not. We know a lot of publications who are using chat activity. We're basically told, like in our our sphere that like if you use chatchivit, you're gonna get fired because you're right, like, it's a lot of it is generic. It's
soulless. It's not like I mean they said, like, you know, sure, go use it to like get some you know, get some like a base of something where to start, but actually write something yourself, because otherwise it is it is still plagiarism, right, rather, you're plagiarizing something that's that just hadn't been written. But that's why I think a lot of you know, we our news site, so I write for Upcoming. It's
a gaming and like esports kind of publication. So we kind of moved away a lot from the like the generic news stuff, and so we write a lot of you know, guides and interview type pieces because it's it's much more.
It's it's different content, but it all so is like that more heartfelt and thought provoking stuff, and like writing a guide and exactly, and so writing a guide like I write a guide, and this is why I love writing my technology guides too, which you can read a lot of them on dev two or like on dev is, I write a guide as I'm doing it, so and like I'm got no knowledge of what I would have had to do in the first place. That's why I love writing beginner content as
well. So and AI can't do that. They can't necessarily put themselves and you could tell it to go, hey, write this on the perspective of someone who's never done this, but it's really hard for an AI to do that because it doesn't quite understand that human comment. It's like when you watch
a video or see some artwork. I mean, there's so much AI generated artwork out there, and I can probably bet that majority of people, regardless of whether they're working in technology or not, can pick up AI content like, right, I've been able to pick up dally generated content because it has a look about it. Yeah, exactly right. Do you notice this? Yeah? Yeah, there's a specific look. Like I'm looking at this stuff now, going that's a really cool picture of like a Pika two. But
I know that's been AI generated. And then you look into it has been and everyone's like, how do you know? And you're like, you just know, like you just have this like does this look and a feeling about it where you're just like, it's been AI generated. However, okay, However, the thing is is that we keep complaining about this stuff not being as good as humans, and then it keeps raising the bar and raising the bar, and you know, twenty years from now, who knows, right,
exactly right, Eventually it's going to catch up with our complaints. And I am one of those people. I fall into categy again more personal preference
and personal opinion. I love the AI generated stuff because I think it's really good for people who don't necessarily have that creative I want to have something different in like I'm thinking here, too, Like I use a lot of it for my presentations, right because I want something that is a little bit unique, a little bit different, and I can't find exactly what I'm looking for. So being able to use some sort of AI generated thing to create pretty
much what I want is really good. Now, a lot of people say to me, oh, but that's taking work away from artists. I'm like, well, on the flip side, let's look at how much work I have on my computer and within my office that is created by an actual artist that I commission work for. I do a lot of that kind of stuff because those are the kind of like I have stickers I have on my Twitch
branding all that kind of stuff. But I'm not going to go and commission an artists for every single PowerPoint slide that I want done, Like that's really costly and it's actually not a good use of the artist time either. Like I've got artists she is actually doing a PowerPoint slide for me at the moment, but it's a reusable slide, like I'll be using it for every presentation. Yeah, you're not taking work away. It's worked that wouldn't be otherwise
be done. It's the work that want to be done, because she's telling me, she's like, I love doing this stuff, but it takes a long time. Like I think she'd been working on it for about three months now, like on a slide. Like it's you know, like if we all wanted to go and commission it, like we just do way too much
work. It's I just think it's a bit insane. So I think having that good balance of like being able to create things that are quick and easy that we wouldn't have gotten artists to do, and then still having artists for the really high quality, good work that we always want to do, folks who have been Usingdali to generate the rough of what they want and then taking that to the artist saying I want this but different, you know, in this style looking at way good for a sketch. All right, So,
Michelle, I have a hypothetical situation for you. Let's say you have a little girl, and you know she's five or six years old, about the time that you might want her to start taking piano lessons and learning an instrument is a really good thing for a child because you know, it can be a comfortable comfort in times of struggle. It expands your horizons, like it's just good for people to learn an instrument, whether you plan on being a
performer or not. And then the kid is you know, hip with the tech and the YouTube and AIS that comes to you and says, but mom, I don't need to learn piano. I have a program that does that. Okay. So I got two responses for you. The first one is I have four nieces, so this is a very much a hot topic of conversation amongst my siblings. And second thing, I actually had someone come to me when I was at State of Open Con, which was less than a
month ago. Young girl, she's in year ten or eleven, and she literally said to me, why do why should I study computer science and software engineering? I don't want to be a developer because AIS are going to do everything for us, Like literally said that. This isn't even a hypothetical anymore. This is young kids in high school saying I don't want to study yourself by engineering because an AI is going to do it all for me. And
my response, yeah, exactly. And so my response to her was very similar what we're already telling you on this podcast is that like AI can't do everything like and she was like oh, but it's it is just growing exponentially. I'm like, yeah, but if you have done exponential blog, it does go like this and plateaus out right. We're still in the you know, the upward phase. But I think there's going to gain personal opinion, I think we're going to hit a point where we can't go any further because
of it. Whether yeah, we're basically there, but whether it's because of limitation. There is another order of magnitude of data to be collected off the internet exactly. So it's like whether we're going to be limitated by you know, literal physical data points, the speed of electricity, whatever it's going to be. There's going to be a limit point, right. What I think
is that there will, Yeah, there will be that limit. But the limit that I think is more important is the public's rejection of AI and because because it's going to produce so many Charlatans and so many so much phony stuff that people are going to want to they're gonna learn, they're going to yearn for human to human communication, contact sharing of arts and culture. Again, it's funny they said the same thing about the telephone. It was going to
limit human communication. I think I think we're not there, Richard. I'm saying, like, in the future, I think we're going to have a situation where there'll be a rejection of artificial anything. I think to certain agree, But my response to this girl was very somewhat we're saying here like a counter everything you as the developer is still in charge, like we still need
to direct all those kind of things. So after a while she was like, I actually want to starty computer sides now, So she got really excited about the prospect of being able to then use AI as opposed to being wary of it. And to your point about like, you know, the public rejecture, I don't necessarily think it's going to be like a public rejection over all of AI, because there's so many people in tech that are just like,
oh my gosh, it's stuff so cool. What I think we're going to get again more personal opinion, is we're going to have the Ikea model, which is there's gonna be a lot of stuff out there that's built by AI and it's all got and you can tell it's being built by AI. But then there's going to be certain pieces where you're going to go that was built by a human and therefore it is bespoke, it is custom, it is more expensive. So same with the Ikea furniture thing, is why I
use IQ. So many people have Ikea furniture in the house, right, it does the job. But if there are no more furniture makers because they all think, well why should I learn how to make furniture if I can just buy it here? And then I think, because there will be a lack of those people, that they will be the ones that are left being able to do that will be sought out. So it's like a renaissance,
right exactly happened because of the depress and all of that. I think there may be another renaissance, but in this in this situation, not a rejection of technology, but just a recognition of human value. Yeah, basically, And so like you might have lots of buy Kea furniture in your house, but there might be one or two pieces that aren't ike and you spend a lot of money on Now, as people, we usually can't you know, generally and especially the cost of living, we can't afford to have every piece
in our home built by you know, a beautiful furniture maker. In the same way we can't have every piece of artwork you know, in our house because it's too expensive, but there will be those, you know, really bespoke pieces. And I think you've hinted on something really important is that those people who really understand that in their craft will get better at it so that it has something different that AI doesn't. And I use that example because my
brother is a photographer and a videographer and he loves the AI stuff. He was like, you know, it makes my job a lot, you know, a lot of the things automated a lot easier, He's like, but it's also made me a better photographer and a better videographer because now I'm learning
techniques and ways of shooting that's completely different that AI cannot do. And so I think, you know, the smart people and the people who you know, I have that more optimistic viewpoint are going to look at their craft and say, how do I add a bespoke human element that people are going to cover it, and that people are going to are going to be willing to pay the extra money for it. And you can only see the horizon if you get on the horse and ride. That's exactly right, And I think
it doesn't really matter. I think what kind of profession you're in. I think that's going to be across the board, whether you're a developer writing, you know, building a website, whether you're an artist, you know, creating artwork, whether again you're you know, even physical things like furniture and stuff like that, where I mean, that's already we're already seeing that, because you know, there's robots that can manufacture for a future like at ridiculous
speeds. But I still want a nice bespoke custom. You want a story rather, Yeah, AI has no story. Oh I generated this on AI. Okay, but what's the story behind it? Yeah? The story. The story is the prompt you wrote. Yeah, a lot of things like especial occasions and things like that. People want that human touch. Weddings, anniversaries, birthdays, those kind of things where people are going to want that extra that extra quality and that extra human touch and knowing that that it's been
human touched. Yeah, yeah, very very good. I agree. Oh my god, what else should we talk about, Richard? I don't know. I think there was some copilot in here. Somewhere, there was some copilot. I'm so we got off on that tangent. It's good because I think it does prompt a broader discussion around everything. You know, I go into the office, we need to keep that discussion going. Yeah, And I go into the the startup office now and people come up to me and
go, hey, you're into this AI stuff. What do you think about this? This? And this nothing to do with you know, get up a copilt. But because it's just so ingrained in every conversation now, I just think it's you know, every it's touching everyone. That that is why we're getting this real just uproar in society about like everything happening, because it's it's all, it's everywhere. You cannot turn away, and you can't. You can't get away from it, essentially unless you want to go live on
a deserted island by yourself. Yeah. I know it's a lot of gardeners who are too immersed in it right now. I think we are immersing it in the industry. I do think it's just another set of tools. The biggest problem that it has is the name. We've spent sixty years making crazy movies where the AI tries to kill everybody. So gee, I wonder why people are jumpy about this name. Well, it was like, I want to did my popcom talk last year. I was like, didn't we learn
anything from like Terminator one or two or three or four or five? You know, you're right, like, but the technology in those movies has nothing to do with the technology of making here except for the name. It's well said Wretchard, Yeah exactly. And I think what's interesting is I love looking at some science fiction movies is because it shows what people's minds were actually thinking
would be potentially capable in you know, twenty or thirty years time. And I think like some of the Cape Billy people always come to me and say, oh, how far are we away from getting like Iron Man's you know, Javis am I afforded there? Like, you know, that kind of capability is already available. While it might not be commercially available in the sense that you and I can't just go out and buy our own Javas, a lot of those functionalities are already there. And you know Open Eye has already
put Chapter VT. I think it was five they put into a humanoid robot. I don't know if you saw the new in Video Press the video Big Conference in who are there? But you know, robots like they're just it's like we created human eyed robots and you know, stuff them with all the stuff from the Internet and you're like, okay, I can't see what's going wrong at all. Yeah, all right, So ride the horse, get
GitHub co pilot, kitt gethub co pilot chat, use it. It's good and you know you and find your way in the you know, in the in the wave of the future. Find your spot on that wave and ride it. That's that's it, and stop arguing with scenes from movies because those aren't real. Well, and you know, anthromorphizing software is never good.
No, it's not. You're you're right, Richard, But it is easy, right, just like it's easy for us to oh, I won't get into the religious, but it's easy for us to answerpomorphize everything that is a force that we don't understand. Humans prefer to most of the time. My concerned is we're supposed to be the professionals and the regular mortals are being confused. It's a freakular more they ask you those questions the muggles do. The muggles come up to you and ask questions, Richard. That's a good bog
like qootball. Yeah, in a wizard. Well, we're the wizards. We're having a lot of fun and it's useful for us to be responsible absolutely healthy and health these these ordinary people who are freaked out because they've watched too many movies. Yeah, and we're playing with the same thing, which we know we're not. We're not, but they don't know. Yeah. And on that note, Uh, Michelle, where are you going to be next? Or what's in your inbox? Oh? So many things coming up,
but it's really exciting. We have kind of like our GitHub broad show happening at the moment. So I GitHub Galaxy is really exciting, a bit more geared towards enterprise. So if you go on to if you just google GitHub galaxy, but it's galaxy dot GitHub dot com. And there's some really exciting stuff that we're doing all around the world. We've got galaxies happening all over Apak, all of the Americas, and all over Europe. So I'll be
doing the Melbourne one, which is happening in May. I'll be in the Hong Kong one which is in April, and I'll be Interestingapore and Thailand ones that are also happening towards the end of May. Then there's a couple of NDC's coming up soon which is really exciting. We'll be there Serverallest Days. I'm doing Serverallest Days in Sydney and Auckland for those people over down on note with me, so you come see me there, and I think they're kind
of the main ones that are coming up. And then I'll be at NDC also again, which wuld be really all right. We'll be there, yeah, I'll be looking. Yeah. Well, Michelle, thank you. This has been a great conversation. And I know we didn't stick to get help co pilot, but I think our listeners like that about this show. We tangentize, don't we Yes, that's not a word. Okay, sometimes we go places tangent urize. This is all right, Michelle, thanks a lot,
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