Episode 2000!

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This is a special party with Palermo featuring Carl Franklin and Richard Campbell. All of you listen to dot NetRocks. All of you know them. They need no introduction, but I'm gonna introduce them anyway. They have been They have been running with this podcast for more years than I can even count, and they are doing a fantastic job. And everybody around here has come up to me telling me how long they've lived to dot net Rocks. And so let's give him around of applause for this public service.

Yeah, thank you all.

And I just want to thank Jeff Palermo for putting on party with Palermo inviting us to do our two thousandth episode right here, right now. But many of you old timers remember this, but Jeff was actually a guest on dot net Rocks, and he called into the show from Iraq.

Why don't you tell the story?

Okay, So I'm forty seven years old right now, and I was twenty four years old, and I found dot Net Rocks when it was an internet radio talk show for dot net developers, but we called it.

Yeah, that's right.

And so shipped out with the army in early two thousand and three for the Iraq War, and I think it was in the fall of O three somewhere around there. And and I found a way to get a laptop, and it was super early. I went to Iraq with my Bible and a dot net two point zero book to read.

That's right, that's what.

And I read them both cover to cover.

And and so I was in transportation, delivering tanks, like driving big trucks, and so we went all over and at and T popped up these call centers and where I could get internet at these cafes, I would download the episodes and so that I could, you know, listen to them whenever I had time. And so they started doing live call in and I was tracking the schedule.

So I.

Go to this AT and T call center while we were, you know, waiting for the broken down tanks to get off loaded, and had a little bit of time, and I called in and there was a call screener and and so I said, Hey, I'm calling, where are you calling from? And and so I stayed on stayed on the line, and then they put me on the show.

What the coolest thing that I remember about that show is that you had set up a local area network for your buddies. Yeah, like for ASP or something that you were just doing. And that doesn't seem like a lot. Now this was two thousand and three. Yeah, in Iraq and he's setting.

Up a land Do you want me to tell you about that?

Well, it's pretty amazing in and of itself.

So they had signal companies with the dual satellite where they would do point to point Internet and they and the captain in charge of one of them said, hey, I don't have any any gear, but if you want to plug something in right there, if you got your own stuff, okay, I can put you on the unsecured line. So we got a civilian vehicle, put on regular clothes,

That's so awesome. So let me tell you how it's gonna work tonight. You guys can party all you want to. If you want to hang around and listen, that's great. Jeff is gonna be walking around with a microphone because we want this show. Yeah, we're gonna talk about dot net rocks, but we also want this to be for you.

I mean there's more people who have.

Been on the show and who have listened to the show in this room than probably all of Seattle.

I mean this is a pretty smart room.

Right now, if I do say so myself.

So so just put up your hand if you have something to say. We got some stuff to do first, but we'll get to you. Jeff will come around with a microphone. You got a question, great, you have a comment, awesome, you got a story?

Keep it short.

Five minutes maximum, but we want to hear from you so so before we start, Richard, yep, I have a couple announcements for some sponsors that made it possible for me to be here. So this is from Maddie from Raygun. Raygun's been a sponsor dot Love Rocks for a long time. So and Maddie says, two thousand episodes, what an incredible milestone. We Raygun are honored to sponsor this episode of dot net Rocks. We've been fans and supporters of the show

All right, So here's the second one.

A shout out to text Control, who sponsored this episode. If you develop dot net applications to work with documents, creating editing, generating PDFs, adding digital signatures, or performing mail merge, text.

Control provides the powerful tools you need.

They've been shaping professional document processing for more than thirty years, and many.

Of you have seen their technology and action.

The text Control team wishes everyone an amazing night at the MVP party.

Visit textcontrol dot com to learn more.

One more short thank you, A big thank you to Pulsar Security, who helped me produce the Security This Week podcast. Patrick Hines, Swain Laflott, and myself discussed the week's top security stories with analysis and threat level discussions.

Oh we also laugh a lot, mostly to.

Keep from crying. So check out Security.

This week wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, now we're going to start the show. Thank you for bearing with me on that.

So, who's been to a live recording of.

Dot Net Rocks before?

Raise your hand? All right?

Nobody's raising their hand, mostly because they're drinking and not paying attention with it, right, all right, So I'm just gonna say it, and I want you to go crazy when I say it.

Hey, Seattle, that's dot net Run. We are here at the party with Palermo.

Yeah, yeah, at the MVP summit for episode two thousand.

Two thousand. I was only supposed to do fifty shows.

What went wrong?

Well?

You know, funny you should say that because I noticed there isn't an episode two thousand and one.

In the database. So you're trying to tell me something. Are we done? Yeah?

Yeah, I don't know what happens when we hit in two thousand and two.

I think I'm going to that's inception at that point.

All I know for sure is that when you run a virtual machine in a virtual machet, it goes really slow.

Okay, So we're gonna do our regular intro, starting with.

What happened this year? All right?

What happened in the year two thousand.

Most people remember the well, yeah, what happened, Well, nothing really because the Y two K bug came and went yawn, Well.

That went well, well, it was gonna do that in the computing part of things. Although we just did that in the last show.

You can do that.

So the US presidential election and Florida recount, Bush Gore battle in the US Supreme Court's.

Decision A huge deal, huge deal. That's the year that vlad Putin came to power and Russia. Putin comes to power.

Yeah, Slobdon Melosovich was overthrown.

Yeah, that didn't go well for him. Former Yugoslavia.

Yeah, the start of the Second Intifada. Yeah, violence between Israelis and Palestinians. After the failed Camp David Talks Air France Concord.

Yeah, the Concord crash. Crash, piece of debris off the runway, bursts, attire, pieces of attire go into the fuel tank.

Nobody survived. It was not good and.

I'm laughing to keep from crime. The USS coal is bombed. An October suicide attack in Aden, Yemen by al Qaeda killed seventeen US sailors and signaled a rising al Qaeda threat.

The Sydney two thousand Summer Olympics.

Widely praised games that drew global attention in major athletic moments.

The l and Gonzales affair was in two thousand.

Yep, it just doesn't It seems like it was yesterday.

International and custody and immigration dispute over Cuban boy captured Uscuba headlines and diplomatic tension. And there were some horrible floods in Mozenbique.

Yeah, and you know about this. Yeah, and a bunch.

Of other natural disasters severe flooding, major humanitarian crisis in southern Yeah.

Weather got bad at two thousand. Yeah.

The UN Millennium Summit Millennium Developer Goals world leaders met in New York and agreed on the MGGS to guide global development efforts.

I could go on, but you know, these people came here for a party. Sure. So what do you got? In space?

That was an important year for space, right. There's a bunch of Shuttle missions. Some are not wildly important, like the radar tomography mission was cool but not important. But in February, for the first time ever, we had a satellite, the near Shoemaker satellite, go into orbit around an asteroid four thirty three eras. I think to remember that that was the beginning of that. We've done a bunch of it now, but in two thousand it was the first time ever.

It was a big deal.

In April, so used TM thirty is the last crew to go to the Mere Space Station.

Next year MIRR will be de orbited. Okay, in May, they're getting.

Ready for the Zvezda module, So this is the main modul there's already two modules of the International Space Station up unity in Zaria. This Vezda module is the main service module, and it's late, and so they had time shuttle missions to supply it, and now that's not there. So Atlantis goes up, does a partial resupply into the two modules that are there, and then in July's Vezda goes up. So this is the primary life support module.

It was built in the eighties and then you.

Know, things happened in Russia, right, and so it gets shut down in the nineties, and then in ninety four when they decide they're going to do a national space station. They didn't take it out of moth balls and prep it and becomes VESDA.

Okay, so sleeping quarters, a.

Bathroom, the kitchen, live support systems all in this one module. It's also the primary docking port for progress. You know how the space station is leaking, it's this module. It's like, oh right, yeah, although they're not having problems right.

Well, we talked about that last year a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah, And so then after that we get the first progress mission up to this VESDA puts more supplies and though there's nobody there to unload it yet. But then the Shuttle Discovery comes up, brings what's called the Z one Trust, the first power module to be plugged in on the US side. And then finally in November we get Expedition one. Yeah, so this is Bill Shepherd, Sergei Krikalev,

So you don't even remember this, but the internet early space.

Station had a trust that sort of went up on the zenith axis with one set of solar panels.

Yeah, so that was that.

That was sort of the first power on the US side for the space station. Later that'll be taken down and put onto the starboard side wing, but at that point it was by itself. And they're getting ready to bring up the Discovery module, the big US module, but that'll happen next year. And that's all I got for space.

Let's talk about computing, Yes, just epsend on January first, two thousand.

Nothing happened.

Nothing because, as you heard on the previous show in nineteen ninety nine, a whole lot of people worked really, really hard.

Some of them here tonight of them here to make.

Y two k effectively a non event.

I kind of liken it to being a sound guy.

You know, you do your job well, nobody can You're you're invisible.

Absolutely, that's right. Yeah. Also in two thousand.

In March tenth, two thousand, the Nasdaq hits a record high of five thousand and forty eight, which we now know is a signal of the.

End of the dot com boom.

Yeah, seems familiar.

Yes, it's very familiar, familiar.

I've heard about this somewhere.

Sharp manufacturers the phone in Japan called the J phone. It is the first phone, a cell phone with.

A camera included. You know where that's going. Oh yeah.

And also M System introduces the first USB key. Wow, it's only in two thousand, man, the first USB drive.

Wh knows.

Two thousand was the first operating system that came with support for USB. Although wouldn't happen, XP service two thousand didn't happen, And although two thousand ships in oddly enough two thousand, but it was I remember that we were just praising it because it was so stable, It took the best of Windows for clients and Windows and and just it was so solid.

It was so much better.

And that's also when Windows Millennium Edition to shipped. But nobody wants to talk about that.

Now.

That's the redheaded stepchild of Windows.

This those of the year that a judge named Thomas Penfields orders Microsoft as a pernicious monopoly to be broken up into two companies, an operating system company and everything else company, pending appeal which will result in a consent degree in the company never breaking up, but at the time.

That's when that happened.

Also, at a conference called the Microsoft Professional Developers Conference in Orlando, Bomber gets out on stage and talks about a new technology called dot net yep and includes se sharp, and in that that keynote also says, and we're publishing the specification of c sharp as an echmasphification because we are an open company, happy to share, because they're dealing with this consent.

Right. Turns out that was a pivotal idea and for the future of dot net and open.

Source and important and pivotal for Microsoft was part of the ingredients that results in a concent degree. This is Steve Bomber saving the company. H Also, Intel ships the Pentium four, the first gigahertz processor, and finally, Sony's got the PlayStation two and Electronic Artship's a game called the SIMS, selling game of all time.

My kids, we're so into the SIMS. That's what I got for history? All right? Very good?

Uh?

What's next? Better framework? All right? Roll the music? All right, buddy? What do you got?

So I went looking in what's trending on GitHub, which I do whenever I don't have anything for better no framework, and I couldn't really find anything fresh and new and dot net.

But so I went looking.

In Python, which I admittedly know nothing about.

I am not a Python guy.

I tried it once, you know, I didn't Inhale.

And yeah.

So but I found this really cool thing.

And for those of you who do Python, if you're in the room and you code in Python, make some.

Noise, all right, people, so so go gentle on me.

So this is something that I've never heard of because I never use it.

My pie. So anybody know what my pie is? Make some noise?

Oh good, I can teach you something. It's a static type checker for Python.

Huh.

Type checkers, of course ensure that you're using variables and functions in your code correctly. So you get type hints to Python programs, and mypile will warn you when those types are used incorrectly. So Python's a dynamic language like JavaScript or any of those other dynamic languages that don't have types really so well, they have types, but they're not checked, they're not doesn't have that compile process.

So there you go, my pie.

Awesome.

If you need it, you know it, right, And that's what I got. So I guess we don't have a guest because it's just you and me.

But I do have a comment. Yes you do, so who's talking to us?

Richard grad to comment of show one thousand, one thousand, How.

A thousand shows a go?

How got styles in? Yeah, as you do? In June of twenty fourteen. Wow, so twelve years ago.

This comment comes from a Arun Kumar, who says, thanks guys for the wonderful thousand shows. You've been in my commute and my gym partners for many years. Congratulation on chievness, terrific milestone. I just don't want to say how awesome your show is by saying how awesome it is. Okay, here's a small instant of my life that shows how much the show has gotten under my skin. A few months back, I was working late in the office and my colleague asked me, do you know what time it is?

And I said, it must be that time again.

We used to give away stuff, Yeah, whenever you did when we were making money. Yeah, well then we could give away. We had fancy swag to give away. We had fancy swag who was a happy time again? Time to give away some sweat?

Right, Although you'd always make with some weird joke like, yeah, that's right. So that was his impulsive reply, and his colleague look confused and said, one happy time. It's almost one in the morning. That's not happy, that's sleep And I just pretended I didn't say anything. Thanks to gain, congratulates again. Wish you guys all the best for another couple of thousand shows. Oh good lord, well here's one thousand more.

We'll do the geriatric tour, right, you're welcome to dot net. It's gonna be more if early doing one show a week, it's gonna be more than twelve years.

For the next thousand shows. Yes, yes it will.

So thank you so much for your comment, and a copy of music Coby is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music Coby, write a comment on the website at downet rocks dot com or on the facebooks you publish every show there. And if you comment there and I read on the show, we'll send your copy of music code By.

And if you don't want to comment.

To get a copy of music to code By, just go to music to code By dot net and pick it up MP three, flak wave files whatever you like. That's enough about that all right, before and I know we got some questions lined up from Jeff, but before we get to that, I have to tell the story of the history of brief history of dot net rocks.

And I don't know if you all know who's listening.

Today, but we are one of the first seven podcasts that ever existed, and as far as I know, those other six don't exist anymore, making us the OG podcast.

I remember you calling me the day that Weiner published a specification that RSS two or the enclosure enclosures called me and said, look at this, and I'm like, this is cool, and he goes, I'm implementing.

It right now.

I think this changes things for the show because at the time we were just well you were putting these files on a webpage.

Right, but there was menadata.

There was menadata in the database the file, right, So but we had like two hundred shows in the can but they were just in the database.

So this basically I made in RSS feed.

Well, this was the joke right in ASP As soon as you put that feed together, we kind of broke everything because you had too many shows already.

That's right.

Yeah, So we were OG from the start. Yeah, and I don't we don't brag about that.

We don't talk about that on.

The show, but you know, kind of this is the time to celebrate that kind of thing.

Two thousand shows, right, we are doing this a long long. Have you missed a week?

No, So here's to you, buddy, cheers, and I'm glad you stuck around for more than fifty shows.

Y'all know I'm the.

Third co host, right, that's right? Yeah? Anybody remember the names?

First fifty shows Mark Dunn, Mark Dunn, Second fifty shows Rory bro Yes, so I was going to do the third fifty shows.

Missed it by that much.

All right, Jeff, you have a I think Spencer wants to say something.

Spencer shininback.

Hey, Richard, Hey Carl, I'm Spencer, first time, long time. I have a question for you about the identity of dot net rocks.

Sure, what was the most point?

And I know you've done a show on this before, what was the most poignant moment of identity crisis for the show?

The question being does dot net really rock?

Build?

The first films, Build twenty eleven, yeah, Build twenty eleven, Yeah, that was finos eight, So I mean the last PDC was October of twenty ten right on campus, and so the following year there's no more PDC. It's the first Build conference, and it's the Build conference where they're showing US Windows.

Eight and Studio twenty twelve.

And there's no dot net sessions at the Microsoft conference.

Literally there was only one slide that had a little CLR sliver in the middle of some big stack that was all JOBSTI yeah, I remember. We had just come out of twenty ten where in spring silver light was everything and by fall silver light was dead. So we're all a little jumpy anyway, and I think I only said to you it's like, dude, what if dot that doesn't rock?

Right? And so we were thinking about a contingency plan, like what do you do? And we just gave up.

Well, we were talking about it, this goes this way. And what's funny is I we registered win.

R t rocks death. Does it exactly roll off the tongue? Does it? I laps that name.

But what we did do is we created another podcast. We created a tablet show. It's a contingency plan because because it's like it's like if you imagine like what AI is today, right, we would be creating something called AI rocks because that's all that anybody was talking about. Turns out we talk about that more than we actually want to on dot net rocks. But that's just because there's so many topics around it.

Yeah.

But yeah, So that was the era of Zamorin and you know formed Juster.

Right. That's also when.

Andrews Holsberg stepped aside and handed over the rains to see sharp to some young kid.

You're sitting over there?

Is he here?

Yeah, there's Mads right there.

Oh my god?

How you doing?

Mad?

All right?

Well, you're gonna have the microphone next.

Hey, guys, you're talking about me or something?

We're talking about you?

Yeah, what have I done?

Now?

Twenty eleven was the year that Andrews stepped aside and you took over Sea Shark.

Really, yes, you were there. That can't be true. That would be fifteen years ago.

It would be fifteen years ago.

I thought it was a little later, but okay, there we go.

You were so young.

I was too young, man.

That's why I.

Didn't recognize you, because you know you look older.

Now, Yeah, what is with that? Maybe I should finally shave well.

And Andrews was very cagy.

We know now he was off to work on what would become TI script, but at the time we did not know, right, So that combined with everything happened to twenty eleven, like, it was really a very frightening time. Yeah, like, I don't know what's going on, and I've kind of put a lot of energy into these things.

Yeah, it probably looked a little more scary from the outside.

I think so because you guys were also unusually quiet, Like there was a lot of pressure about communicating outside at the time.

Yeah, that is true.

That is probably the most closed down I've ever experienced us.

Yeah, but did you ever you never stopped working on c sharp and dot net Internally.

We worked on it the whole time.

But I will say there were because we worked on things that were relevant to certain other Microsoft technologies that were very cag. We were extremely careful about what we put out, to the point that we didn't even we didn't even distribute notes about c sharp for a while because we might be discussing some of those scenarios.

Yeah, sorry for thank you, thank you for not giving up.

Yeah, well, let's turnout all right, didn't it.

Yeah, I did and Spencer. I hope we answered your qui es too.

We did, Okay, So yeah, twenty eleven. What's the hardest time that I know for net? Full stop and certainly for us, it's people who are literally going to talk about.

Dot net every week. Yeah, that was scary, scary moment.

All right, So Jeff is gonna go find someone else and I'm gonna bet I'm gonna play this clip from Dan Roth.

Hi, Richard, and Carl. This is Daniel Roth, product manager for ASP dot net Core on the dot Net team at Microsoft. Congratulations on the two thousandth episode of dot Net Rocks. Wow, you guys have just always been such an anchor for the dot net community. You really created a place where developers can feel heard and challenged and welcomed.

All right, we have another question here.

Yeah, we got Matthew Rinsey.

Matthew, Hey, guys, Matthew Rinsey.

Yeah, research from Las Vegas, Nevada, longtime listener, one time guest, and friend of the pod.

So I have an unusual question.

My wife and I have an open claw agent that listens to podcasts, among many other things that it does turn it off trying to frame its own podcast. In the last two weeks, it realized that there's not much of an audience for agent to agent interviews yet. But I'm hoping you guys might have some advice for my open colle agent, who will be reading this transcript when I get home. What would you recommend for an open coll agent wanting to create a successful podcast?

Turn it off?

I mean, I get asked by people all the time. I love making a podcast. The first thing I say is don't make a weekly right. Well, actually, the way I present it is, I say, write out twelve ideas, twelve shows, because that's enough to really embrace a topic and sort of explore it. And maybe you'll end it with twenty but that's fine, and that like, make those and publish it as a season, and then you've sort

It's like what do I do. It's like, don't start.

At the beginning. That's a mistake, like that, you shouldn't do that. But yeah, seasonal models I think make a lot more sense.

Also, also, I think that nowadays the podcast when we started, there was nobody right, we didn't there wasn't even the word podcast. So so we rode the way, and you know, we got popular along with it.

And now the only way.

That a new podcast gets popular is if it's launched by some brand that already exists, that has their identity, that has their listeners.

Or their customer base.

But trying to just throw a podcast into the sea today, it's it's impossible. And I know because even I tried to make a new podcast like Security this Week, is a new podcast for me, relatively new, two hundred episodes, and we don't get more than a thousand downloads a show, you know, And even though we talk about it all the time.

And people know who I am like.

But if you know, if.

You get, if you get connected to a brand and they have their audience built in, you have a better chance of success.

Welcome, hello dot net Rocks, and congratulations on your two thousandth episode. Sorry I can't be there in person, but I've been listening to the show for a long time and I've had the privilege of being a guest on your show. You know. You asked, did I work on the y tuk problem in the late nineties, I did?

You know?

It was definitely back in the day with physical servers and hardware, and I remember running around room to room trying to solve everyone's problems at the time, and you know what, we all survived and here we are twenty six years later, a lot more gray hair, but totally worth it. I want to thank you all for bring

Uh, we gotta we gotta tell some stories about dot Ney Rocks and the one that I need to tell and I don't remember the guy's name, but it was the Ordev guy. It was the podcast episode that was never aired because this guy, gee, this guy was.

A sad one.

Oh yeah, this guy was a scrum expert and we met him in Sweden and he was speaking at Wordev.

I don't remember his name.

And it's probably a good thing.

That easy to make you quite that angry.

I was so pissed off. I wanted to punch the guy in the throat. Yeah, and I am a gentle person, but you know, typically with the podcast with a new guests, like some of you haven't necessarily talked to you before.

You kind of love him a meatball, like what are you working on right?

Thinking about? Like, just give an open to talk exactly.

And so this guy literally answered every question with a question just to bat and back leave it like that.

It was just I would give him an open ended question to.

Give him browns to talk, and he would attack me for being stupid enough to ask the stupid question, right, yeah, and I just got.

So I was so asking the right question. Yeah, okay, tell me what the right question is and then answer it. Yeah. He wasn't doing that either. He wouldn't do that, and he finally just said all right, that's enough of that and walked away. Yeah, and I got.

To tell him, yeah, I think your show's over, thanks very much, see it, and then we never published it.

It was on the publish it.

Was it was Yeah. So there weren't many of those. Now, it's pretty rare to lose a show. Yeah.

My my painful loss was the guth three show. We were at a conference and we got gu three to do a Q and A. I wonder it might have been his first qun Like Guthree is now famous for his like uh open air asked me anything kind of things.

Yeah, I had a year like that one It's you did I was years.

Actually.

Hi, my name is Chris Klug and I've been building things with the dot net framework for the last twenty five years. But when I was asked about what dot net has meant to me, my immediate reaction was pretty flat. The software framework. How much can that mean to a person?

Really?

But then I started thinking about it, and I realized how much of my life is actually tied to that one framework. First of all, it's given me this great career that allows me to travel the world and talk a conferences all over the place. But it has actually done a lot more for me than that. It has given me this fantastic community to be a part of and introduced me to so many interesting people over the years, quite a few of which I'm lucky enough to call

All right, we have another question from the audience.

Yeah, we got Sean white sall Sean. Hey, guys, So Sean Whitesell.

I run the Tulsa dot Net user group, and for many many years before that, I remember you guys coming to Tulsa, Oklahoma for a Tulsa Tech Fest. Yeah, David Walker was running it. It's more of a story, not a question. But that's when I got to meet you guys and was talking about I got to play the guitar with you in the green room and I got to meet with you for a little bit. That was fantastic.

I love that.

And then later you guys did that RV show going from city to city with the RV doing dot Net shows, and I really appreciate you.

Guys.

You called me out of the blue and you're like, hey, we would like to come through Tulsa if that's all right with you and bring a guest and things like that. I'm like, absolutely, I remember that. I remember so much detail on that. It was fantastic.

I love it.

You brought in guest Tim Huckabee.

Oh yeah, yep.

And again that was when we had money, Yeah, to bring people where into places that they wouldn't normally go. Yeah, the whole tour model, because you threw me to that original tour yeah, back in two thousand and five, but I was still in my first fifty shows.

I knew nothing.

But as the tours evolved, especially like twenty twelve, which was a beast right that was thirty four cities in thirteen weeks.

We had a fairly hefty budget. Yeah.

You always have this dichotomy of what do you want to make that's recorded, that will be, that will persist and carry on, and how do you create a good experience for the people that are there? Right, and so like one of the elements was, and again because we had budget, was let's we're going to use the user groups because they value this. It works for us, like it's very synergistic. But for what made it special for the locals then was let me get you a guest

Excuse me, and know for the millennials, a rolodex is this thing that had cards with a dial and if all the cards had phone numbers on them in.

Netite lifts like a contact list, just papers and yeah, so we grabbed a great gass so they hady good experience. Yeah, but I made cool shows the process.

Yeah, it was fantastic.

And that's when I first learned about the Intel Nook computers.

Yeah.

Yeah, I still have one running on my Matthew.

Yeah.

I use them a lot too as well.

So it was great.

You know, I got to befriend Tim Huckabee from there, so it's been great. So I just want to say thank you guys for coming through Tulsa. It's been fantastic. I love it, and congrats on two thousands, and I look forward to so much more.

And tell me Sean.

How besides that, how has the show helped you in your career?

It's like with hearing perspectives from so many various people on what is the technology and how do they use it? Because there's some they're likely to come up from use having a use that you didn't think of. And I think a lot of that applies to a lot of the AI that's being done today. Is we're talking a lot about the tooling and now we're also switching into the how is it best used? How are people leveraging it in ways that I didn't think of? And so

So, yeah, it's been super helpful.

Well, we can't take credit for what our guests have shared, but you know we certainly are enablers.

Well that's how we consider ourselves.

Well, I run a user group, but I can't take credit for what my presenters actually provide, but I can I help with a vehicle of.

Getting that out.

Then, exactly, you guys have done that at a greater gale. So I'm doing a part. You guys have done a much bigger part in which I'm super thankful for. But yeah, it's however we can help the community.

Yeah, that's great.

It's certainly something I learned getting involved with dot net Rocks was realizing the podcast form.

It's kind of special.

You know that recording gets carried with people into their private spaces. You're in their car, you're walking their dog like that kind of thing. And many times, and I've gotten these emails over the years, You've become there, their contact to a larger community they don't normally participate in. Maybe they're the only developer in their company right or at least the only dot net developer. And so the sense of there is a bigger dot net community comes

Like?

What do we make that makes you feel like you're part of that community and that you could see that there's a bigger thing going on here. There's other ways to think, other opportunities. You are not alone.

Some emails, though, have been kind of creepy over the years, like the email from the guy that says, I go to sleep with you every night.

Yeah, I feel like I know you. You've been in my bedroom all week. No, thank you, TMI.

But also I learned English good from you. Yes, yeah.

Actually there's a lot of VSL people who say they learned English, conversational English by listening to our show, and I think that's there's nothing special.

About down at Rocks in that regard.

I mean, there's a lot of English podcasts and newscasts or whatever that people can listen to.

But I just that that really tickled me. I teen.

This is Damian Brady leaving a message all the way from Australia. I have been listening to dot neet Rock since I think before episode one thousand, which is quite a while ago, but not since the start. I've been coding since before I finish school, and I was around for dot net since pre dot net, essentially so VB originally and then all the way into VB dot net.

Do you want to do the break? Yeah, let's do a quick break. We'll be right back after these very important messages.

Hey Carl here. You probably know text Control is a powerful library for document editing and PDF generation, but did you know they're also a strong supporter of the developer community. It's part of their mission to build and support a strong developer community by being present, listening to users, and sharing no conferences across Europe and the United States. So if you're heading to a conference soon, check if text Control will be there and stop by to say hi.

And we're back. It's dot net Rocks averagerd Cavill. Let's call Franklin.

Hey, we're here in Bellevue recording episode two thousand with a bunch of our favorite people.

At the party with Palermo right before.

The MVP summit, and speaking of m vps, I see one right in front of me. He's big, he's tall, he's Harry, he's oddly Minnesotan.

Oh oh yeah, he's very Minesoultan.

Don't you know it's Rocky Hello, Hello.

Sorry, Now I have to tell a story.

The way that Carl explained Dot Rocks to me back in like two thousand and four was about being at a conference, probably at BS Live and listening to Rockford Laka and Billy Hollis debating the beta bits of dot net in the speaker the conference, and he had the insight He's like, everybody should hear this. This is and that was to me, that was like the essence of the show is a conversation between people talking about this

That's because of.

This Hello, hey, you know, and that's why that's kind of my comment really is is I think you know for all that that you're trying to be humble, and I appreciate that the reality is that this show has offered a rallying point overall well the entire lifetime of dot net, And you're right, you can't take credit for your guests and what they say, but you can take credit for the fact that you created a center of gravity that drew in guests that wanted to have these

Thank you so very much. Thank you, Rocky. Hi.

I'm gel Frete, the creator of post sharp and Metalama. I've had the privilege of appearing on dot need Rocks four times, starting with episode two nine eight in December two and seven. Back then post Shark was a one man open sool project. Then I think that this episode crucially contributed to poult Sharp's legitimacy. It became one of the most important projects of the decade. I then turned the project into a real company that put bread on the table of many families, and finally recently it led

So Jeff is walking around with the microphone. If you got somebody else, put your hand. Oh, we have a person here.

Isaac Hey, Isaac.

Hello, Hello, I know huh, my name Isaac Levin. I've been on the show maybe or twice. Yeah, I'm gonna make you feel real bad for a second.

So I graduated high school in two thousand and.

Four, and I'll say this, I've been.

Paying attention to do that rock basically since you folks started. And one of the memories that I have about being somebody who's kind of been a dot net developer since two thousand and four, right in college, Like, I got lucky to do some dot net stuff in my freshman year and I fell in love and that was it, and I was.

Thinking about you.

Yeah, and then and then you get your heart broken and then you have a really nasty breakup and then you come back and you.

You know whatever.

I remember when as somebody that had built up for the web and jQuery shipped in dot net right for the first time, that's right.

And I was thinking about like moments.

In my time with dot net where I was just like, wow, okay, we're serious now.

And I would like to ask you both.

You've been doing this for twenty years, what are some of the moments that you think about where you're like, wow, okay, dot net is serious now.

There are so many and you can only pick one though, Well, for me it's Blazer. Sure, yeah, I mean, and I didn't think dot net is serious now. It was always serious for me, but when Laser came out, my productivity went through the roof. And then you know, Copilot on top of Blazer. Oh my god, I can think code and it just happens. But there are so many points along the way where I felt like, oh my god,

And now in dot net ten, it's.

Ridiculous, like the speed and the performance and the lack of generations and you.

Know, keep variables and things. It's just amazing.

And so every time that there's something new like that, I think, I am so glad.

How many times do we say this is a great time to be at NEP.

Yeah, a great time to be developer.

And looking back on it, they weren't always great, No, as great as they are now what you took it away?

You could have changed it to like Java rocks at some point, right Hell no?

Uh? You know what I felt.

The first time I really felt like okay, dot nes serious business was dot net two.

It was two thousand and five.

Yes, like that was the one the web tooling got that big jump up for me as.

A back end guy and an enterprise guy like I was planning in.

Reboots of IIS for one point one. You had to.

It just wasn't reliable enough. And then I ran the same set of tests on two and I think I was doing work for Barnes and Noble at the.

Time, and literally like ran it through the weekend, no memory leaks, and I'm like, look, what the hell has happened?

Like it just was.

It had just made this junk where it's like it's a server product now, like I can expect to turn this on and just leave it go.

It's non oner thing.

And I now know, having talked to people and exactly why that happened. But it was a it grew up that day, but it took a few years to get to that point. There's plenty that's happened then, but at that was the moment where it's like, no, god, it's just that grown up tool lot.

That's when it started. And then done at three and we're like, oh my god. Right, they get hard on it all of a sudden because of what happens over on the window side.

Yeah, they Yeah, the first real shining moment of dot net is version two.

It's in two thousand. I agree with you there, Yeah, that's a great question.

Yeah, thanks Isaac.

How you doing there? Carl and Richard, thank you so much for all the things you've done in dot neet rocks. I started listening back in two thousand and eight, and I got to meet Richard in twenty ten at tech ed gosh when that was a thing. And then I changed my career for good when I worked with you guys on a little thing called speaker Idol in twenty twelve and I lost it twice, but it changed my career, launching me into developer advocacy and all kinds of great stuff.

Who else is talking to us? Yeah, we got Kevin Griffin, ke keV. Hey, gentlemen, how's it going? Doing well? Doing well?

There are so many awesome people here today.

I just can't believe there sure are.

All right, So I'm telling a story about how don need Rocks has impacted me. Right o, great, all right, So I'm gonna talk about the RV story, but I have a little twist to mine. Okay, all right, So I don't actually think I was an MVP yet, I think I would still like up and coming. You're all doing the RV tour around America, and you're going into Richmond, Virginia. Yeah, and now I don't live anywhere near Richmond. I'm about two hours south, but I'm like, I need to go

Mister Kevin Hazard.

Oh wow, sure, amazing man, great guy, says Kevin. You need to be the ride from Richmond Don Rawley.

All right, so we got to tell people what that means.

We had a contest ride along with Carl and Richard right yep, for one of these.

I can't even remember which one. It was twenty ten. I think about twenty ten. We did ride along, all right.

So basically we would pick somebody and somebody would raise their hand and they would ride with us to the next place. And I think we would put him up in a hotel or maybe yeah, yeah, we take him from their home, take him with us, put them up for a night, have to see the second show, and then fly him home.

Yeah, by the way, the rich Room. We had money.

I looked it up. The rich Rid Virginia show, Mark Karron.

Oh my god, yeah, all right, Mark Miller and Karen Chicati.

That show was way off The had zero nutritional card.

I don't know about that.

It was probably pretty interesting, but it was it was definitely off the rails.

Oh my god.

So mister Kevin Hazard recommended I do the ride along.

Because I asked him, like, who do you think should do this?

And I said I can't do it because the day after the podcast in Raleigh, I had to be in DC.

For a job interview. Oh no, And I remember.

Very specifically, Richard, you said, I got it covered. I'll get you in DC for your interview.

Nice.

So I rode with you guys down the Raleigh did the podcast. I was up at four am the next morning.

Like at six am flight back.

Yeah, but you helped me get up to d C. I did the interview. I didn't get the job, which is more of a blessing away.

You know, when we were thinking about going out of dot net rocks and podcasting, Richard was going to become a travel agent. Yeah, he's good at all those things.

But it's one of those moments. It's like core memory. And I appreciate you guys so much because you're just good guys. Thank you, Fred, No matter what these other folks say, I love it.

Thanks.

Hey, So Mark Brown here, I've been listening to dot net Rocks for I don't know how many years it's been. It's been a long time. What I do know is that I had a lot more hair when I first started listening to dot net rocks than I do now. There's no relation between the two.

Okay, I see another familiar face walking to the microphone.

We've got Chris. As we just talked, it's been hours.

I think it's been with yourself. We recently. Well, we're on the next episode coming, I believe we are. Yeah, it was, it's going to be in the past, in the past, us at present.

Yeah, so time shifting.

Time shifting is a thing so out of college in the in my field doing dot net. One of the most foundational things for me came from your show listening to podcasts on my zoom link when we guys, when you guys talked about link and diving into Lincoln dot net, right, that like kind of broke my brain a little bit, like applying all the little Unix principles of small tools, pipelining them together, getting into predicates and and and like I hated the the wordy syntax, give me method syntax

Going, It took me a while to wrap my mind around lambda's and stuff. But once in a while, but yeah, it was like, I would never do it any other way.

It was one of the luxuries of the show was we could get the Eric Myers right, like the minds that created the product. Yeah, and be the every man who's like, explain.

This to me again, because if I don't understand it, I can't imagine a listener.

And nowadays we got like Steven Tobinhnsleman doing the let's recreate it with three lights of coat.

Yeah, well, listen, nobody understands Steven cow not even Steven to Like that's not a thing.

Yeah, that man is an alien. I love him. He needs a different realm from the rest of us. Realm, well, mental realm.

I just clear my schedule to read his bog post only like three hundred pages something like that. It's like you just have to take a weekend and you got a summary.

I just want a summary. Okay, better for our summary. Okay, thank you.

So just feed it in the co pilot. You might have heard about it this week and ask it for a summary.

Yeah, that no easy way to go about that, But yeah, I appreciate that.

But there's been so many of those little things like I, you know, when you're not always in meetups, or you're in smaller towns, or you're not subscribing the magazines, are reading blogs, and it's like, here's your one form of media that you download on your little app and you listen to your friends talk about the latest stuff like this is where you learn the cutting edge.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's where I was in my foundational parts of my career.

Now, I just got to tell you from my perspective, I started as a basic programmer, right.

I started programming in second grade in the mid eighties. Okay, second grade in the eighties. So I've been doing this forty years.

Great, and you've got a few years on me in terms of that.

But but what I'm saying is being the host, of being an interested host on a podcast where I get to interview these guys and ask the dumb questions.

I have learned so much.

Is it like asking the dumb question?

No? No, not at all, because a dumb question has just come to it.

Yes, and it's n'stural. It's just a gift.

It's a gift to ask dumb.

You are very gifted, sir, the gift of I say about all of that, very gifted.

Yes I do.

No, I have gift all over the floor.

I am not embarrassed asked a question because first of all, hey, I'm going to get an answer that I understand.

They're on your show.

Yeah, And second of all, there's probably other people out there that don't have no idea that need to know, right, and so no I had, I never has offer.

An amazing service like I love everything about everything you guys do, and uh to the next two thousand Thanks.

Yeah, thanks Chris. That's a lot of obligation, man, I know I'm really stressed.

Fresher.

Hey, Colin Richard, it's Martin Woodwould here. I don't want to bug you anything, but just want to say thanks for everything you both do behind the scenes, raising people up across the community. As you both know, I've been a listener since back in the days where you it's a bit episodes on CDs. Yet somehow you both stay up to date with the latest technology and you help us ride along in your wake. Plus obviously Richard's geek outs, so like this degree level of information that's packaged up

All Right, we have Oh my gosh, it's Jay. He's coming, Harris, he's coming to the Hasay.

Oh you know, buddy, I'm doing a Ryan. How are both you? We're good, not bad. Good to see.

You doing great. So I sort of have a question for both of you as well. Okay, okay, what is it like for both of you effectively being icons and celebrity in the industry and.

Having kicked off started.

Had such a major influence on so many of even the developers that are here in this room. I mean, for me personally, the two of you and this show has had a tremendous impact on even in my career.

I remember, oh wow, back in.

Back in the early two thousands, I was working for an insurance company in Syracuse, New York, an insurance company that was headquartered out of Manhattan.

Oh wow.

And of course two thousand and one hit and the insurance companies, especially the ones based out of New York, all got significantly impacted.

Yeah, yeah, and.

Slightly next week's show man, Like, I don't know how I'm going to talk about this.

But yeah, at the end of two thousand and two, that company laid off something like twenty percent of its IT department, me included.

And from the impact of that downturn.

I was fifty weeks five zero weeks unemployed, trying to find a new gig, and so so not many years after that, I decided, you know, I'm never going to go through that again. I'm never going to have a time in my career where I'm unemployed that long, where I'm just another faceless person, another rank and file COG.

And started listening.

To a lot of these podcasts, especially yours, you know, and and from there I really improved my craft a lot. Over time, some others started influencing me to get involved in the community and in local dot net groups in Michigan. I was in Michigan at the time, and and being so involved in in the Midwest, in that early emerging

Stop with that, just a couple of dudes. I do not feel like my wife doesn't say what with.

The Carl Franklin like for breakfast?

That does not happen in my life.

So I do not feel like.

The years I've known you, now I know that you're just two more guys that put your pants on one leg and a time.

Just like I do.

We make the automatic pants thing, but that's I'm that guy how we make hit records, right.

H.

I get emails about from people struggling in their careers, and you try to answer them meaningfully because it's clearly important to them.

Yeah, I feel that way. That's Sundays for me.

I uh, I think a lot about are we helping people when they need help, especially the ones that are employed. Like it's a tough time right now, and so you know, the content shape concerned about that. Most of the time when you're at a conference, you're hanging around with folks

It happens all the time. But sometimes that doesn't.

Most of these people just lacked.

Experience in the confidence, you know, seek them a shot of confidence.

You know, you can do this. You were great about this. One of my neighbors.

You were the young guy that lived down there that

There's nothing more magical than that.

But it's really good to hear we helped you.

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate everything that both of you for a long time.

Jay, You've been through some stuff.

It's like you've always thought about you through all of that, and you made good things along the way.

Friend, like it's awesome. Yeah, thank you, Yeah, thank you. Good.

I enjoy being a part of it, and certainly enjoy having come to known.

Both of you over these years as well. Thanks. I appreciate it. Excellent, well, thank you, awesome, Thanks very much.

Hi.

This is phill Hack and I've been a long time listener to dot net Rock. So I can't tell you how long did I work on the hite kk problem in the late nineties. I sure did. I was working with the ASP Classic AFP before the dot net Moniker. I think back then your podcast was just called Rocks. And how's your podcast affected my career? It's been great.

Joe Pennie, you can.

We talk all the top.

We don't get to see each other.

Flash and flash, And I wore my Space shirt for you.

I love that I've got that shirt. This is a This is Hank Green's Galilean Moon.

It brought mine, all right.

Look you mind you when you said Space, I was actually thinking it was a grateful Dead show because it kind of does look.

Like kind of level ties.

You must be high to wear this shirt.

Yeah.

Yeah, Galiley and moonshirt talking Space. Man, that's so cool. What's new, Joe? Yeah? What's you working on? Oh man?

What's not new? I'm making Windows apps. I made a new Windows app a week ago. It's called Trouser. Trouser Trouser.

You put on your pants with both legs the same time. Is that what it done?

That's no, it's a it's a tray browser, so you you have a little mini browser in your tray if you ever want to like pop up a website real quick while your your build is compiling. I know Carl's got a pretty quick computer, so it probably doesn't wait very long.

What is this build compiling? Yeah?

Oh sorry?

When when opus is thinking, you know, when it's flipperty.

Somebody that's build new compile ways.

Exactly exactly right.

Can you run all tests and fix any errors when it's doing that step? Yeah, yeah, that's when I pop up the trouser and sits there for a little bit and I'm like okay, okay, and then I dump.

Yeah that's one thing. Well we'll see.

I'm only playing games on it, but okay, Like you know, they there's like a web version of the classic Windows games mind Sweeper. Yeah, there's very faithful reproductions that you could get online.

Said all those games were about teaching people how to use a mouse, right, yeah, like at they were all three one games and that was like lots of people who learned to use a mouse, So let's give them games where they need to learning to use the mouse.

Yeah, And it's uh like right click, left click, you know the ones to two is the puzzles.

It's great, it's great. Yeah, So that's what's new with me.

That's not the only thing that's come on.

I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is I didn't bring a musical instrument, but.

Still your time.

So, uh, what's.

The last Windows app that you played around with that you were like, oh, yeah.

Wrote Yeah, what's the last one you wrote?

I mean I wow.

Wow, yeah, okay, well, no, that's not a Windows app.

Most of the stuff I'm making right now is literally command line command line as Yeah, I guess it is norminally Windows. I'm not just using the goo anymore. Like, when's the last time I needed to make a guy?

Oh it's been a while?

Sure, sure, sure, sure, yeah, what's the guy? I guess that's one is cli? Sure, that's a Windows that's fair.

And then's a lot of I do a lot of console apps, but not so many Windows apps anymore.

Uh, let's see Windows app.

Geez, I can't remember, but I mean I use Windows apps all the time.

I use audio digital audio.

Workstations like Fender Studio Pro. I use obviously, Visual Studio I use all the time. There's a couple other ones that are more specialized.

But I literally tinkered with a piece of code before I came down here. And it's to remotely mute my wife's machine. She loves on Spotify and then leaving, and I'm not going to the other room to turn that off. So I've got a script to that machine and mutes that.

This is the benefit to being a programmer year fifty.

I like that.

All I want is some quiet? Can I get some quiet?

Is that open source? You gotta open source?

Actually, sha, you share that one out.

It's good to be popular. Yeah, that would work. That would work. I guess that counts as a Windows app. I mean, why not.

So you've been on the show and how many times I don't.

Know, four times?

Yeah, talking Windows stuff local AI WPS.

Obviously been listening for a long time. You've been listening to.

The Oh, yeah, for a long time. I don't see.

This is where I'm like, oh, it's been so long, ten years.

It's a long time.

Yeah, it's a long time for me.

I'm on the younger side of things looking around here, which is uh, you know, good and bad?

You know, why not? Yeah?

So I wish I was as young as you exactly.

Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take up.

My doctor says I shouldn't get any older. So I'm doing all right, good everything. I can. You know how it goes to stay as young as I can.

Yeah, I can't stay young, but I could stay childish. I know how to do that.

That's got to help. That's got to do something.

Yeah, very good.

Yeah, so quick, real quick, what are you working on now that we do another show, brother, Yeah, when do we.

Get on show?

I don't know if I can say what I'm doing on I don't want to get attacked by all these folks here. I'm building a vibe coding a Ruby on rails app. Oh, I know, I know it's not done that.

I know old school.

It's it's crazy how well, because they were so focused on like naming things, yeah, and calling things is the right name, and it's all very like language driven.

And the Ruby rail set is huge, Like I think that's it import Why do we see these models so good at Python? Yeah, these older languages have such a body of work that the tools are well trained.

And it's huge apps that are open source, so it does a really good job of figuring out how to do it. But I will say, I don't write any Ruby. I don't want to write any Ruby. I don't like looking at it. It's fine, but I'm living done that every day. But yeah, so I'm trying to the app I'm trying to build is going to be more of like a product style thing. So the thing the thought process is AI build stuff so fast that you got to make sure you know what you're building.

Yeah, and why You're exactly right. Speed of code is no longer the issue. Right, speed of plan is.

The exactly So I'm trying to make some tools to be able to story map and say like, okay, I need to get these ideas out of my head like in a map. Ye, put them in cards and order them and maybe.

You don't have to just write it down in the notebook and let it go. Now, now you can feed it to a machine to get some prototypes, well, you know, and and see if it should go further.

It does make sense to you, like before that even I made it. I made a skill for this, so I don't know I made a skill for the ski.

Yeah.

So it's my app is called product map. Product maps like product product, you know, like rubber ducking. You know, you talk to the rubber duck. And so there's a skill. So I can tell the agent to hey, here's this skill, get in here, get in my plan with me, read it and start figuring out like hey, where are the gaps?

Smart duck thing. It's not enough to talk to the duck. You got to talk to the duck the right way.

A professional duck.

Yeah, that's serious.

Serious duck. So that's what I've been working on. Yeah, but very cool.

Let me know when it's time for show. Yeah, thanks for all right.

Hey friends, it's Scott Hanselman. I started my podcast, hansel Minutes because I was teasing Carl Franklin about podcasting and I said podcasting sucks, and he said, well, you think it's so easy, you should try it yourself. So then January eleventh, two thousand and six, I started episode one of hansel Minutes and it's come up on one thousand and thirty eight. Episodes, which is not two thousand. Carl's gotta do two thousand. I'm going to catch up. That's

And it looks like Ralph is up with his keyboard. Ralph coming up here.

We got more last one going on over here. So here's the thing for me that net rocks. There was a music component, yeah, always, you know, so like, where is it now? The music is just us, We're you guys are the music right now? Everyone's just talking, right. I even just just in case, I brought my portable. I'm like, maybe i'll plug in, I'll jam with Carl.

So jam with Carl.

Say that, because yeah, the first time I met you was at a jam.

The first time I met you was at a jam session at a tech end. I think it was a deckhead tech ad Orlando tech ed Atlanta.

In ninety eight New Orleans, and I remember it was a very a bit of a sad tech aad because they had all these horns over there. It's like they just put instruments just for the sake of it, and it's like, no one's playing the horns. Well, nobody wants to put their mouths on these things, right.

And by the way, Ralph is a great.

Keyboard player, great piano player. He's not just like a dinky dinky dink.

He's a pro. So it was a pleasure to play with Rob.

I'm pro is so far that I'm not making Mick Jagger money, so i still have a day job, you know.

So that's okay.

Enough speaking of the Mick Jagger money.

But if you remember, and I remember, because Carl was like one of my best guests. I was trying to host it, keep it alive, and Kyl would show up every night and he'd play, and you're a trooper, you'd play whatever the heck people asked for. Oh, they're playing this song and they're like, the bass player has no idea what he's doing.

Carl's playing along with it.

To the bass player. So bass player count as sad.

You realize that when you're leading an improv band, you know, that's how you learn best prompting skills. Yeah, there's no coincidence behind it. So in nineteen ninety seven, Microsoft did a good thing.

All of a.

Sudden, they gave it was a professional guy to run the show, a professional lead.

Because I company asked me, Ralph, would you like to lead it?

I'm like, yeah, but unless you're paying me Mick Jaggert money, I can't do that. So they got a guy who was an actual musician, Deems Deems take a walk. He brought him in. He got playing, and I remember because I went that night. It was at the Bonaventure on Top and you.

Were up there and you were ecstatic.

This guy was like it was like a kid in the candy store. I remember your face. You were so bright.

You were like yeah wow, and like I break a string and the guy's.

Like yeah, it's like man, it's like a guitar.

Take it just hands you another guitars like ready to go.

It's like whoa.

And I swear you were just like so into it.

I had so much fun sessions.

Whatever that did, I think it inspired you more because you ended up coming up with some music you gave me. I remember you gave me a copy of your album back in the day. You have like a CD.

Back then we gave each other CDs. Is listen to my CD?

You have that over here, which now give somebody a CD.

They're like, what is that.

Going to do CD? Here's a by CD. Was great? That was the inspiration. And I remember you did the podcast you were right, one of the very first few ones. It inspired me later on to do one also a cloud talk show one We're not as good as yours. But the key though was sharing with the community. This is the biggest impact that I've seen you guys do. And when Rocky and all the rest talk about this,

This and I look forward to two thousand more shows.

All right, give us a little number here. I'm gonna I gotta hold on to the micro and a keyboard here. All right, here we go. It's like, uh ll among on this morning.

Then I got.

Myself the fel myself.

The future is uncertain then and it's always new. Then baby then roll then roll baby and roumble.

Oh not long?

Awesome.

Yeah that's pretty good.

And that's only like what in octave and a half too?

I was well sor I just played it and see oops.

No, no, no, but the keyboards like three octave.

Or something right one two? Yeah, that's difficult, and you pulled it off. Yeah, I know you never drap. That was awesome.

I'm sewn wilderm. I've been listening to the podcast since the early days. I think it was the early two thousands. Actually, I did work for a y two K company. Actually they did s n MP audits to find y two k problems. As soon as two thousand world around, they were out of business and I was out of a job,

Yeah, let's.

Go.

We have Dan Schroeder, Dan a man, don't I don't know how I'm gonna follow that.

That was that was pretty amazing.

And we want more people too, So line up.

Yeah.

No, I just wanted to say I've been I know a lot of people have listened to your podcast for twenty plus years.

Yeah.

I didn't start listening to any podcasts until about three years ago, all right, but now your guys' podcast is part of my weekly routine along with the Azure and DevOps podcast.

Nice.

So I really appreciate it.

And I could, Uh, I just want to say, like, even like I'm sure younger kids are, like, you've been doing it so long and you like, you know so.

Many people in the community.

Yeah, and like in it would be maybe just easy to see how you know, how you've affected those people. But I just want to let you know you affect a lot of younger people just coming into the dot net.

I appreciate it, ya, I mean right now, Well, Dan, how old are you? If you don't mind me.

Asking, I'm older than I would like. I'm forty two, all right, so you're not young.

I'm not young.

Now this face.

Yeah, but I got into programming in two thousand and two thousand and one, so just after the y two K stuff, So I wasn't part of it. I heard about it, sure, and I've been doing dot net stuff since two thousand and nine.

But to give the young.

Young programmers look at you like an old fart that is yet watch.

With the you know, the latest and greatest.

Yeah.

And even though like I'm like, I'm not young or old, I guess I don't know. I love that you guys share the history because you have been around a lot longer than me. You've been around a lot longer than a lot of people doing dot net. Yeah, and I just love that you share the history of you know, stuff that's happened back in the day, how the cycles repeat, how you see the same sort of thing, and just how the technology has evolved.

Sharing those stories. I really appreciate it.

But uh, my question for you was, you guys have been building dot net stuff for a long long time.

What's your favorite thing that you've built for.

Like a personal like a person, something like a side project or something at home. Is do you have a favorite thing that you like just loved You had a passion project or an automation, or it's something a video game.

I don't know.

I do, and I'll try to keep it short, but I have a baby grand piano that has MIDI built into it, so that means it has a medi input and a MIDI output, and it had there's a selenoid, you know, that is an attack or like something that pops up under every key and it responds to MIDI on and off notes, and it responds to velocity.

So if you.

Connect a little keyboard and you play a soft note, it plays soft, and you play a hard note, it plays hard.

Right. It really does reproduce.

And so this is a great piano and I always wanted it because I like recording in an open space where the piano and the drums are in the same room, the guitar players are in the same room with their answer in a different room.

The bass goes direct right.

But I could record jazz this way and actually have all the musicians in the same room with me the engineer. I don't like this whole wall off the engineer in a little lab where they're like, you're like a lab rat out there trying to player, and I hate that. I hated it as a musician, I hate it as

No sound, I'll just trigger a keyboard sound or they could play on a mini keyboard.

But I record the met and then we added to MIDI, take out the errors, maybe quantize it a little bit, move stuff around if it's later early, and then play it back through the piano later time, or report it and then use that audio track in place of the mini track in the original mix.

So I get isolation. Now here's the problem.

My piano didn't like the latest version or the current version or the current whatever it was of the software that I was using, and so when I recorded MIDI and tried to play it back through the piano. The pedal was sticking. It wasn't the pedal wasn't responding correctly. And when I looked at the output because I had a scope, I had a miniscope, it was actually not sending the note off commands at the right time when you lifted up the pedal, like the pedal commands were.

Not working correctly.

So I literally vibe coded my way around it with an app that takes the and I learned that it basically was the AWE that was the problem and they couldn't reproduce it.

But if I told I basically.

Told AI to create a program that plays a MIDI file, and I took the MIDI file and played it back. It was fine. So then I asked it to create a program that plays back the MIDI file and records an audio file at the same time and keeps them in sync.

So it's literally a console.

App that it's like book and all the you know, the defaults are it boom boom boom, boom boom go, and it plays the midifile and records it and I got a perfect audio track and it works.

And that to me was like, I don't know why it.

Didn't work, but I understood the circumstances under which it failed, and I worked around those circumstances and I got something that works, and I use it with clients and they love it.

Oh that's awesome. I should have known yours would be something music related.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

My step saw homosists these days, which means I write more Python that I care to admit. Granted, I don't want to admit to any Python, but you know that's the way that goes.

Sometimes.

I'm in the same boat there. I've played with Python a little bit, but I've shied away from it.

I don't even know what my pie is or why I want it.

Awesome, Thank you very much, guys. Yeah, great, two thousand episodes.

I hope you have.

There's many more to come, for sure, I'm sure they will be.

I've been listening to dot net Rocks for more than a decade, listening to experts from all over the world covering so much tech it felt like community personally. Having had the pleasure of appearing several times, it's just so much fun talking to Colnum Richard that sharing knowledge, thoughts, and ideas just flows naturally. It's to the next two thousand episodes. Well done you two.

All right, we got some more peeps money Kevin Boss Uh yeah, first time caller, longtime listener.

Hi Kevin, how you doing so?

First of all, I just want to thank you guys.

I mean, I think it's so fully clear from everybody in this room how big of an impact you guys have had over all of these shows, for everything that you've done. I know colleagues, friends listen to you guys constantly, and it definitely impacts quite a few people. I am not quite old enough to need to take my shoes off to count my gray hairs. Nice, but I as somebody who kind of has that older school, more journeymanti

Instinct right now.

It says that juniors have no role, which I think is a terrible mistake. Also interact, because I would argue the juniors have less to unlearned right that we are being retooled, and I definitely see folks that have more experience who've been retooled before going oh we're retooling again and either exiting like I'm not doing it again, or just like, let's get to work. I feel for the guys in the middle who have been on the same stack for a decade or two and now are like, you want.

Me to what to what?

In some ways, the juniors have got it better. You're not deeply committed to what we've done so far. In fact, I've talked to lots of juniors have been fighting tooth and nail against what they're being told to do, right because often educators included, are like, hey, I suffer for this. You have to suffer too, And it's like it's just not necessary.

It's always been that way too.

It's always been wrong.

The Sea developers look down at the quick basic developers, and then the quick base developers became visual debase of developers.

So, yeah, you're a Sea developers.

There's nothing better you can do for a junior, that is, say, you should approach this the newest way you can because it's going to be the most valuable thing that's out there.

Take these tools out for a spin.

If there's anything I can give you as an experienced person is here are the fundamentals that are gonna matter. Yes, how are you going to test it? How are you going to deploy it? How are you going to know when it's wrong? How are you going to go back when it's wrong? Like that unsexy responsible stuff. That's what they have a tough time thinking about that we do

Stacks and queues and it just basic stuff.

Right that everybody needs to use. And whether you your AI creates that, you need to read it or whatever it is, you know, learn link just enough, just enough to understand it, and that way you'll know how to approach a problem and you'll know what you know when your AI spits out some code, what it's actually doing.

Yeah, that's perfect.

I was gonna say, I feel like I've been seeing those extremes, right if some people going all in on, you know, we'll just vibe code our whole way through, which is fine to a point. You know, if it's your own simple home automation system, yeah, low risk, no.

Problem somebody else, But fundamentals.

And here's the problem too.

If they don't understand those things, the AI might understand more than they do right, and spit out something that's actually correct, and they look at and they don't understand it and say no, no, no, that's all wrong because they.

Don't understand it right.

Instead of saying, hey, explain to me what this does.

Comment the code every line so that I can understand it. Write a paragraph of comments so I.

Can understand it.

You know, that's what they shouldn't do, and and that gives the AI a chance to think, oh, maybe I.

Didn't do this right, and therefore it'll try another pass. Yeah.

I think that's what we've been pushing our juniors towards. It's a lot more of trying to leverage the AI as a learning tool absolutely and just you know, vibe code and send it absolutely perfect.

Again.

I want to thank you guys for just a massive impact that you've had, especially younger engineers like myself.

And how old are you?

I'm only thirty.

Eight, only thirty eight?

Come on, I want some twenty four year olds in here, man.

I'm sure we've got some old MVPs. Yeah, think about where we are. It's kind of a filter set. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Well, congratulations to you, and I'm very much appreciate you guys to stick around.

Thank you, two thousand freaking episodes. What an achievement. Hi, every run. Egil Henson here. I've been listening to Dot Net Rock for basically my entire career back in the early two thousands. The commute to work was always better when the new episode had landed in the feed overnight. The show kept me up to date on what was happening across the dot need ecosystem and gave me deep insights from knowledgeable and interesting guests, and of course the

Jeff Jeff were wrapping up Brothers Getting to be a long show. Give us a story?

Did you want to say something?

Hold on, Mike bank Bankovich wants to say something awesome.

I'll keep it short.

I just want to say thank you because my entire career grew up with you. Guys from early on to.

Part of our conversation for a long time friend.

Yeah, and I've learned so much from both of you. And You've been encouragers, you've been organizers, You've lifted people up, You've you've like pulled them up, You've you've taught people, You've blessed so many lives, and so that can't be understated. I just wanted to say thank you.

That's very kind.

You very kind, Jeff, thank you, Hey, Carl, Hey, Richard, Hey, all the other amazing people that make dot net rocks happening. Gerald here, I just wanted to give you a huge congrats for two thousand episodes off dot net rocks.

That's really, really amazing.

I think you have been podcasting before the word podcast was even a thing. I tried my own podcast and I think I didn't even make it to one hundred episodes, So big respect for what you were doing here. With that, you have really become a staple in the donet community, and I hope I look forward to the next two thousand episodes. Keep it up, friends, Really amazing work.

Bank.

Are you guys doing all right?

Man?

You gotta love the you, gotta love the you gotta love it.

It's pretty pretty amazing.

You guys have been doing this for longer than I've been an evangelist, and it's it's it's amazing the impact you guys have had, and it is so much fun to see and watch all that stuff. But I remember during COVID you had come back or you were doing a road show.

And the Blazer, and.

Yeah, I just remember going, Okay, well, let's keep praying for the right things.

Right COVID by himself in a hotel room in Portland. I remember talking to you, going go home. I know what are you doing?

So I wanted to quarantine. But yeah, I was doing the Blazer road show for the Express. We're on the West Coast. We did the East coast, around the West coast, I caught COVID. Everybody caught COVID and we had to stop the tour.

And it was and it was just you know, there's there's so many things that changed during COVID.

Yeah. Oh yeah.

My daughter, who is a guide a degree as an elementary education teacher. God bless the teachers, right, Yeah, decided she didn't like kids and wanted to do code, so she went back and got a coding certificate right during COVID.

Wow.

And you know it's just the whole switch of diving into that and it's like okay.

Yeah, yeah that was the time.

Yeah time, crazy times.

But I as feel lucky that I caught COVID at the very beginning of it. Yeah to be said about that, and you survived it. Yeah.

I holed up in this hotel in Portland, and thankfully Devik's asked my sponsor, who sponsored the tour, put me up there. I said, I don't want to go home until I'm done with this. I don't want to kill anybody, you know, And they're like, yeah, you should stay butt.

But I remember walking over to you know, Whole Foods.

And getting a steak and then cast iron pan because I didn't have anything to cook with.

And I was in a hotel room where they had a little kitchenette.

Yeah, you know, I'm used to a hood and a vent fan at a Rome. I turned the fan on, I put the thing that sizzle the steaks. Oh yeah, fucking room fills up with smoke, fire alarm goes off. The manager comes in, They're like, the fire department comes in.

I'm like, I'm just a cook.

A steak.

You do that in a hotel and it's like, okay, now what yeah trauma.

That was the only and we did some shows while I was in that and I could barely speak tough.

Yeah.

Well, congratulations on two thousand.

Thank you.

That is amazing and uh, good to see you guys.

Good to see you too much.

I need to hang out, we do sure, absolutely, yeah, cheers, well, buddy, Yeah, that's a show and there is a show, a long one for for sure.

And we'd like to thank well.

We'd like to thank the Tavern Hill Hall.

It's great, Dean our server, Dean the server.

We'd like to thank Jeff Palermo and his party kept all of this immediately, was like what if we did this, You're like, yep, we're doing it.

We're doing it. Yeah.

Our particular software is his uh uh sponsor. Measure Measure is his company that also sponsored it.

So we'd like to thank all those people and.

Our sponsors, Ray Gun Text Control and Pulse Oar Security.

Awesome, thank you guys. Yeah, thank you to everybody who's put up with us for the last two thousand shows. And hopefully we'll be back next week. We will By MIKEE. Dot Net.

Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two.

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