Welcome to Nerdpreneur, where we have fun conversations with people making money with their nerdy passion. My name is Chris, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Frank. Hello. And today we have a video very special guest. She's a professional coach who brings over 25 years of storytelling and game design expertise to help you conquer life's quests and achieve your dreams. Satine Phoenix, welcome to Nerdpreneur. What a wonderful welcome. Thank you. It's nice to be here.
We're very excited to have you on and thanks for coming on our podcast. You've actually been someone I've wanted to get on for a long while, but I'm just excited that it's finally happening now at our pod. The very first question we always ask is, sateen, what is your nerdy passion? Biohacking. Biohacking? Yep. Frank is like, that's not what we know you for. No. What exactly? Well,
that's the point, right? I mean, obviously I love Dungeons and Dragons, but when that's what you do for a living, then suddenly other things start welling up. And I'm over 40 and realized, oh, Boy, I got it. I got to figure things out. So, yeah, it's biohacking. Yeah. What is biohacking? Yeah, exactly. Like, lay it on me for like a five year old here.
All right, so it sounds cool. It's biohacking, but really it's understanding your human body so that you can reach the pinnacle and the most optimal performance of what you are capable of. So it's not like I want to be Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's like I want to be the best version of me. Or as other nerds would know, I want to be level 20 version of me. And maybe I'm level 5, maybe I'm level 10. Maybe I'm actually level 16, and I'm really close.
It's about understanding who I are, who I are, where I are at any given time. And so therefore, it's eating. Eating right for where you are right now. Because like I said, I'm over 40. I cannot eat the way I ate when I was in my 20s or even my 30s. Definitely not when I was in high school. Yeah. You know, starts to show up after. After 30. Like, you have to. I remember when I turned to, like, 30, I'm like, oh, things that I eat, they, I. They don't. I can't just eat this and be fine anymore.
I can't just sit around and be fine. You have to start taking conscious effort and care of your body and being more conscious around what it is that you eat and do. So if that's biohacking, that's very interesting. Sign me up. It's a slice of it. Right? So also being over 40, and if you're over 30, I highly recommend getting your hormones checked. So I'm on testosterone, I'm on progesterone. I had, like, none.
Apparently they found out that cortisol, that thing that rises up when you're in a panic situation, it actually takes other elements out of your body. So your entire body is made of cells and hormones and like little mitochondria and peptides and all this stuff. And so you get a signal over here, the rest of your body goes, hey, put resources over here. And then it does. So cortisol, where does it come from? It comes from your testosterone, your progesterone.
So then you have people that are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, starting to deteriorate, not knowing why their levels are so low. And it's because of these high stress situations. Now, it could be like childhood trauma, or it could even be like the stress of scrolling through your phone, watching the world burn, you know, it's all very stressful. And so that's another aspect of it. It's the hormones, it's the Peptides. Yeah, man. We could totally. I know Chris and I could
totally go down this rabbit hole. It is so tempting. But, you know, we're going to. We will talk about that. I would love to start, though, kind of in the beginning of your branding journey. So I was hoping you could just share a little bit of how it started for you or where you started or what part of your journey you'd like to talk about. It all started with David Bowie. Ooh. So I don't know. I've always been a very, like, intellectual child.
Through my whole life, I've been an intellectual child. So used to play with time, right? My grandmother was my best friend. She was like way, obviously way older than me. And so I would see people in different strain strands of time. And so at 8 years old, I'm imagining what being 60 years old is like. I'm imagining being what 30 years old is like.
And then I was obsessed, because this is like the 80s, I was obsessed with David Bowie because here's a man or a creature of space who's reinvented himself every phase. So humans go through phases. We have a cellular turnover every seven years. And if you are along the correct developmental cycle in your own system, you have different interests, right? And so I watched it. I watched it play out in his life, I watched it play out in my parents life
and the people around me. So I'm like, okay, I'm like 10 years old. What do I want to be when I'm 20? What do I want to be when I'm 30, 40, 50, 60? And so I kind of developed as a kid and a general idea of where I wanted to go. I knew there was acting in there, I knew there was comic books in there, I knew there was tv. And I knew there was like all these different elements. Right now I know that when I'm 80, I'm going to be making artwork for hospitals and hotels. It's like my retirement plan.
And then when I'm 90, I'm going to have like, I don't know, I'm going to live on an island in Japan and then just have like a little bed and breakfast. So I have these like long term goals. But then the nearer goals are like, where am I in my developmental stage when I'm 20 years old? I got into adult work. I was like, who am I sexually? And so I was like, okay, I'm. I wasn't developing a brand. I was just being an artist.
I went to art school for five years, classically trained traditional illustration, sculpture. And I was like, okay, I need to, like, be present in my system. I need to overcome the terrible childhood that I was in. I just leaned in and I said, okay, I guess I'm doing this. And so an entire, like, span of my 20s, I did the things that people are afraid to do in their 20s, which is explore the things you're, like, freaking out about, you know, like, I need to try all these things.
I'm obsessed, and my fantasies are taking me over like a lot of normal humans do. Well, I said, wow, okay, I'm gonna go do that. And then I did it. I did it a lot. And. And then I was like, oh, I satisfied that urge. I scratched that itch. I'm done now. And I knew I was like, okay, only going to do it while I'm in my 20s. I hit 30. Boom, pivoted, met a guy, got me out of the adult industry. We were really hardcore nerds together. He collected Marvel.
I started organizing Dungeons and Dragons events, and it just kind of moved. Everything in my life went when I didn't get in my own way. And so that's kind of a roundabout way of saying, like, you don't know till you know, right? And so I knew that I needed to be in public and I needed to reach people because I wanted to help people overcome their obstacles. Now, my childhood trauma happened starting at 8, ended at. At 17. So I had this. And then also I played with time, which is.
I don't even understand myself sometimes, but I knew that I would be a part of a movement of people to help heal others who've gone through the pains and traumas that I went through, right? And so I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since I was 8 years old. I've been in acting. I've been an artist. I knew all these things. So by the time I hit. When did I start branding, specifically? I think it was right after Celebrity Charity 20.
And I started doing the live stream Dungeons and Dragons in 2012. I just like, okay, I'm having a good time, but I need to. Like, I need to wear this. And It's. I'm like, 32, right? I'm like, I need to wear something, and I need something to be stable in my life. And I knew that I wanted a family. Like, okay, how do I do that business? Okay, well, what does this mean? I don't know, but I really? Like raising money for other people. Okay.
And it kind of had this catalyst. I'm sitting down with my friend Sax and he goes, well, you're like the queen of D and D. And I was like, is that a thing? He's like, yeah. I mean, essentially, yeah. I was like, oh, okay, cool. Awesome. And then I did some interviews, and someone else was like, she's the queen of D and D on Time magazine. I was like, I'm the queen of D and D. This is great. Okay, I can go somewhere with this.
And at the same time, I was making comics, so I gathered information, I developed my skill and my mana pool set, and I utilized all my past and all my knowledge and my hopes and dreams and made a character of myself. And I did it because David Bowie did it, and he did it so many times. And that's where it all comes back, right? So I knew that every seven to 10 years, I'm going to need to pivot. And so the brand was Sateen Phoenix, Queen of D and D, and then got canceled.
Everything went up in flames. And I'm like, oh. People are like, you should kill yourself. And I'm like, I'm my brand. I ruined the world, you know, And I did some healing and realized actually, that was a really good, important phase in my life. I knew I was at the end of that business phase. I knew there was a cycle. I'm like, you know, like, how many women admit to being 40 in LA? Like, that's not a thing. And I was like, oh, this whole thing's going to crash down.
And then it did, because I think I helped manifest it. And now I'm like, okay, I am not that brand. I. But I am. I say, how can I put this? I'm not that brand. I am that brand. I am not what they say I am. I am me. Therefore, I can be any brand. The brand that you have created has taken several shapes, and I think it would be fascinating. I envision that. And, Chris, you tell me what you think, but I envision that there is a listener that's like, I want to build a brand, my own brand, too.
And Sateen has done a fantastic job. So I want to see what has Satine done that. Words are hard, but what has Satine done that I can learn from that? I can. I can do. Know what is important to you if you want to make a brand, what is important to you and your soul. Money will come and go. I've been. I made a crap ton of money many times in my life. And I've been homeless multiple times. I've had lots of money and I had zero money and I've had negative money.
And it all comes and goes, and it comes and goes in where your mind is at and where your mindset's at. And so if you're trying to build a brand, think long term, but also think about what you bring to the table. Right? Going to art school, I learned project management. You know, I was a programmer. I know how to organize. I know systems, I'm a gamer. I know how to, like, gamify and level up and see myself and see my character for what it is and how to, like, get the crap beaten
out of my character and get. Have a friend come and revivify me. Right? Like, that's super important. Having your allies and your friends there and knowing that, like, at a game table, people come in, people leave. In a game table of five or six people, you're going to get three consistent people. And so all those lessons gave me the courage to say, actually, at the whole, at the bottom of all of it, I just want to help people.
And so how can I help myself and then help people while I'm helping myself? And that is biohacking, you know, positive manifestation, overcoming obstacles through aging. And so, yeah, transformative life coaching. I think a lot of people, when we say put this out, they're going to be like, oh, Satin V. I know her from D and D or from live streaming or from pro game mastering, or all those awesome things that are very much like the nerdpreneur side of it.
And I was wondering, like, you know, when you were going through that, like, your story is very much rooted in following your passions, it sounds like, and things that you were very excited and interested. What I'm curious about is we've got the nerd side of nerdpreneur, that passion and going after it. At what point, like you said, you had some real success and you did in the D and D space.
And if you would mind talking a little bit about how did you start thinking about turning those specific passions into businesses or into a business where, yes, you were serving people, but also you were receiving revenue for various different things that you were doing. And because some people don't even believe you can make
money doing this nerdy stuff. All right, like, that's what we're trying to show people is it's possible to be a successful and thriving and abundant nerd in your space and be able to do that. So could you speak a little bit about what are some of those things that turned into businesses? Yeah. So if you can imagine, my gaming career was about 13 years old. I didn't get paid for six years. I'm literally bleeding money. I don't even know.
I was just obsessed with game nights and game afternoons at the. At Meltdown Comics, I'm, like, running events. So in 2010, so I started those things, like, 2009, 2010, 2010. I invented livestream Dungeons and Dragons over at Meltdown. That was where Nerdist started. Nerdist was a podcast? Yeah, Nerdist, Chris Hardwood, Dan Harmon was in the back doing comedy, and he would do his shows there. And then I had a bunch of friends come, and we were like, okay, how do we raise money for charity?
Oh, well, we can stream it. And so for two years, I, like, trialed and errored, and it was bad. It was awful. The people that were there were amazing. It was actors, voice actors, it was producers, directors, and, like, people in the. In the entertainment world. And so finally, in 2012, I nailed it. And I was like, this is it. And people literally still use the same format. I'm like, please invent a new format. Like, come on.
But the people who were with me that whole time were Matt Mercer, Taliesin, Marisha. And so in 2014, they went to Geek and Sundry, or maybe Geek and Sundry went and found them. They have their own history. And we're like, yeah, we've been doing this. Let us do this here. And so they started critical role. And so I was like, huh? You get paid for doing this. That's amazing. And I was like, cool, cool. And I'm still running events. I'm going to conventions.
I'm still bleeding money. I'm like, literally thousands, I think, over the course. And I did the budget after the fact, and I probably spent over a hundred thousand dollars just over traveling and providing things for people and, like, production and all of this. And the money that we got for the. The charity went to the charity. Right. It's called Reach out and Read. Highly recommend it. It's for. To get pediatricians to teach parents how to get their kids
to read and the importance of it. And, like, it's really cool. Very small. And this was all part of D and D live streaming that you were kind of doing. Was that where this was all coming in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And so. And you said, like, this was you. And no one else was doing it. No one else said, you started this idea. And then, you know, other people started to be like, hey, this could be really cool. And then, you know, obviously, they submerged.
And so when you say the format, you said the format, what do you mean? Is it just like playing a game online and live, streaming it or squares on the screen? It's more like. So the first time, I was like, yeah, we're going to all be on the same web page, and it's all. We're going to film it all in one room. So we had, like, four tables. Each table had a webcam and a recorder. And so you can imagine, like, the echoing, and it was just awful. And it's on one web webpage.
Then the next year, it was like, okay, everyone gets their own webpage. But then it was like, what is bandwidth? You know? Right. And so eventually I was like, okay. And I'm doing this with Keith Baker, who created Eber on, and I'm like, a huge fan. Huge fan. But then he became one of my best friends, and I'm like, come over, dude. You're like, sleep on my couch and it'll be cool. And it felt like high school. It felt like college. It was just, like, so. So innovative and edgy.
And so it was like, okay, well, let's just do one at a time. We do one table. We have the game master in the middle, and we have, like, players on the sides. And then we just go two hours. Two hours. Two hours. I think originally it was like four hours. And it's like, God, you can't fit that many people in a day. So it was about maximization. How do we get the most people to play and get the biggest reach with our audience? Right?
It's all networking. It's like, the super cheesiest thing about Los Angeles was also the best way to get funding from fans and the best way to reach fans. And so you see this all the time in charity events. You know, Over Zoom Zoom created the boxes. But in 2016, D&D came to Meltdown, and they're like, oh, that's the girl that runs this. And then it became. And then Force Gray had just come out, maybe like, I don't know, that year or something. And so they had a big Force Gray event.
And Meltdown Comics was like, the hub, the super nerd hub. Everything was. Everyone would go there. That's when I met Dungeons and Dragons as, like, the people who make the books. And I was like, oh, my God. Specifically. Right, exactly. So I'm just like, with them, didn't you? Oh, man. So I was the first one. I was like, look, I want the license to eber on, because back then, you couldn't stream, like, licensed content. And so I have it here somewhere. I have the contract, and I, like, cherish
it because it was a huge thing. It's like, here I am doing the thing that I love. They say, we recognize you. We see you. You're over there in that comic shop, and we see how hard you're working. We see you when you go to all the conventions. I literally had to fight my way into conventions because it was such a boys club, which is dumb. That's like 2010, right? I would walk in all dressed up, you know, and I'm like. And granted, I had been in a previous web series called I Hit it with My Ax.
It was like porn stars and strippers playing Dungeons and Dragons. Very hooky, right? Very, like, clickbaity. Who's not gonna watch that or click on it? Oh, it was also, like, hilarious, because it was just. Would have been crazy. Oh, it was. It was wild. We were in, like, Maxim and Playboy. Like, it was crazy. But, like, then they'd watch it, and they're like, oh, they're not. They're just playing Dungeons and Dragons. That's all this is what.
Yeah, exactly. So the catalyst of all of it was like, I got paid for that a little bit, but I didn't really. And then, boom, I did it long enough to be seen. And so that's when things started moving. I got the license. It was my ex, he. And I started Amaze Arcana. And it was just like, this thing is this big whirlwind. We met, and six months later, we got the license, and we're like. It's a whole thing. And then we're like, okay.
I had been in a car accident, and so I was producing because I couldn't speak on camera. I was like. I mean, I got in a bad car accident. And so he was a game master. And I'd play because sometimes I would, like, literally glitch out because I had, like, severed tbi, traumatic brain injury. And, yeah, eventually I was like, well, I want to do it too, because I am an actress. And then I started game mastering, and then we started traveling with D and D. And that was 2016, 2018.
I meet up with a director over at Dungeons and Dragons, and he's like. And this. We've been doing live events like it by here. I'm like, indoctrinated into the cult of Dungeons and Dragons, and I'm like, I will do anything. And they're like, well, we actually Want you to be you. But for us, which was funny because I was in negotiations with Vampire the Masquerade to be, like, the head of their show. And so they didn't like that it didn't end up working.
But that's when I first got paid paid, because, slash, I got paid. Ma Arana would receive money to put on a show, but they didn't give us hardly any money. So that money would come in, pay the cast, and pay some of the production team. But I'm still, like, forking out money to the production team, you know, and paying for things. And it's in my apartment. So it's just, like, chaos, right? And so, yes, we got paid, but it wasn't enough. But the great thing was is
that it didn't need to be enough. Like, it was enough, but it wasn't enough. But it was totally enough because I got to do the thing. And then eventually, like, we broke up, we separated, I left the company, and then I started my own. And then I. Then there was a big thing. There's like a cancel culture thing happened. And then I stopped being the community manager for Dungeons and Dragons and I started Gilding Light, my production company.
And then I was like, okay, now I'm starting to get sponsorships. Now I'm starting to get. And this is what, like, eight years, nine years in. That's obsession. It's a little crazy, actually. That's all crazy. Like, why did you keep going? Why didn't you just be like, well, you know what? I'm. This is clearly not working out after year three or year four. Like, what kept you going to be like, you know what? I gotta keep this thing. I can't just get a day job or whatever or go work for a company.
I was. I was actually. I was. I'm an illustrator. So like I said, I went to art school. A graphic designer illustrator, character designer, storyboard artist. And I was working for a toy company at the time. I was making. I did three graphic novels and a nonfiction on storytelling, all in that time. So here I am twice a week at Meltdown, running D and D, also running their life drawing classes and also working. So it's like, I just. I don't know. My therapist and I were like,
what are you running from? Like, what. What are you not willing to face? And for me, it's like severe childhood trauma. And so that's part of it, right? It's like, some people can just have normal lives and just relax and watch tv. Others have to, like, literally make things. Yeah. And so, like, I'm a little recovered from that. But that is what it took for that, for that moment. Yeah, it. I hear that it definitely takes a lot of that drive, that push.
But it's funny, because a lot of the time when people talk about driving and, you know, being, you know, pushing yourself, they don't always realize that sometimes it comes from not the best place and something you're talking about. Chris and I have talked about it before. Like, I think you're more qualified to speak on this than me, but the thought I wanted to get out there is. I feel like we all have some sort of stress or fire behind us, propelling us. I think it's really.
There's a really good point of people recognizing where this is coming from for themselves, because if you know that you're running from something and you can face it, whatever that means for the individual, then it makes you that much stronger. And it ties in so well with, I think, your brand of. Of, like, the Japanese art of the golden. What's it called? Please help me. Kintsuguroi. Kintsugi. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That one. I'm sorry. I'm not going to say it. It's all good.
I'll say it for you. Thank you. But, yeah, it's that idea of recognizing, like, hey, you may have been damaged at one time, but then when you put yourself back together and you look at the cracks and you look at everything, you can become so much more. Than what you were before. Yeah. And you have, in this story, tried so hard, and you tried for so long to get noticed by Wizards of the coast, and. Actually, I. I worked at Wizards of the coast for a little bit of the time that you were there.
I worked in customer support, and. Oh, my gosh. That's so cool. Yeah. Don't be casual about that. That's awesome. It's totally random because I was just, like, working at my desk, and you came up to the cs, the team, and you were talking to Blake Blair, and you were, like, talking to him about something. And I was like, her hair. I recognize that hair. Wait. And then I asked my manager, and they're like, that's Satine Phoenix. And I was like, shut the fuck up. Like, you can't. No way.
And I had just been to pax, where I saw you on a panel talking about Arcanum, and. And it was. It was. You were. You guys were talking about, like, the Experience and starting to live stream. That was. That was what the panel was about, because I was super curious. And then you know, we're here today, and I've been telling people, like, yeah, we're talking to Satine Phoenix. And some people are like, oh, you know, I'm not in the D and D world. What is that? And I say,
she started live streaming. She's like, she started D and D live stream. She's the one that made it a thing. And so, you know, this is. This is partly to say, hey, look at what you have created. That's super awesome, but it's also kind of what Chris said. You stuck with it, and you were working super hard, and that is something I didn't know that you had multiple things going on. So now I kind of want to bring it back. Like, how did you manage to do all of that?
Well, apparently, people don't like it when you're just running and sprinting ahead. I found out later. Really? What do you mean? So, yeah, apparently your team wants you there all the time. And if you don't develop your team by, like, vetting people, right, then you get people a part of what you're doing who are there for their own reasons. Attach odd attachment styles. Right. Validation. Very odd for me in the. From the business world. Like, I was like, oh, what do you mean?
You need me here all the time. You should be doing your job. You are so not emotionally. Well, whatever. And it's like, oh, oh, that's odd. And so I had this momentum, right? So now that I'm in the business world, I'm like, oh, I can see that is unhealthy. I need to be able to do my thing because I'm a CEO and that, like, do not hold me back, because I will literally hire somebody that is. That can do what you are doing. And that's a really brutal way of saying, like, boundaries, geez.
But I have a different momentum now. The momentum I had before was I, you know, daddy issues, attachment, you know, really weird attachment styles. I had worse. Now it's much better. So here I am in a relationship with Dungeons and dragons since I'm 8 years old. It is a thing that saved me. I fought the monsters in the game. I couldn't fight the monster in real life. And so it was a part of me. A part of me in a way that other people could not understand. And I'm sure other people
can relate to this in their own way. So by the time I'm 30, right? Like, dysfunction, complete and utter dysfunction, and I'm reeling in people saying, hey, I'm dysfunctional, and here's my escapist mechanism. And other people are like, that's my favorite escapist mechanism too. And so here we are escaping together, not understanding what it is doing to each other. And so here I am validating bad behavior in the community because now I have to live stream, I have to livestream,
or nobody's gonna love me. Not true, by the way. Figured that out after I got canceled, but it took all of that, right? I am not good enough because I didn't live up to what they wanted me to be or whatever. So the momentum then was, please love me. The momentum now is, oh, I love me. I'm good, let's do this. And there's more fire now. If I had loved myself appropriately back then, oh, my God, I can only imagine where I would be right now.
I just finished a podcast earlier today for my other podcast, talking with someone who is an expert on building teams and hiring good people and working with great people. And, you know, I ran a business when I was 21, and I didn't know anything about people, about business, about anything. And I was just. I would. You would make bad hires, you would be around people and you don't know how to manage them. You don't know what their. What their problems are,
and you're just trying to survive. Like, I think a lot of people don't understand sometimes the entrepreneur journey is a lot more. It's a roller coaster. It is a lot more intense. You're the CEO, you're the person running the whole show. So that means all bills, all expenses, all credit is all on you. And if it doesn't work and it doesn't, then the person, they just go get other jobs. You lose everything. Right? And there's a pressure, oh, my gosh.
From being the top of the pyramid, the person who does and is responsible for everything, that a lot of people, I think, who aren't willing to step into the arena of risk and entrepreneurship, they are unwilling to or they are unable to even relate to that experience. So there's a lot of blame that can happen. There's a lot of things that can go in that direction that I think can get misconstrued.
I know I screwed up a bunch of times when I was a manager, a new manager, managing sales representatives who are. Who were 17 all the way up to 25, generally. And it was. There was a lot of them that I was like, I mismanaged or I said the wrong thing or, you know, but I wasn't live streaming to a hundred thousand people or whatever. Every single
day what I'm doing, you know. And so, yeah, the benefit that I had was I got to learn a lot of those lessons the hard way, but in privacy of my own entrepreneurial journey.
And so I'm curious, like, as you've gone through your experience and you obviously learned a tremendous amount and a lot of inner work to go through and now be where you are, are there any hard and fast lessons that you now have for just working with people and teams and others that you can impart upon people who might be starting off on their entrepreneurial journey so we can leverage your wisdom and experience for those that want to step into the arena themselves? I have so much wisdom.
So it's okay to fail. When people want to shame you for failing, they're just shaming themselves. And it does not matter what other people say. You just know that you're a good person. And maybe you had a. You did something that wasn't right, but you are. You are a good person. That thing that you did, that behavior was. Was probably not a good thing, whatever it is. And I'm directly correlating this to my lessons learned from getting canceled and having my human person
be so intertwined with my brand. Right. Um, the other thing I would say is my favorite Instagram thing, I post over and over, I repost, which is hire fast, fire faster. Now, one of the strange things that happened with me is I fired a lot. But then suddenly when, you know, people started dogpiling, the people that I fired started coming out of the woodwork. She kicked me out of this. This out of the game. She kicked me out of the company. And it's like, yeah,
you didn't get along with my co creator. Like, why would I keep you and then take him out? Like, he and I own this together. So, no, I do not feel bad about that. One girl's like, I. I got kicked out because they. He. He said this thing, and I felt mentally raped. I'm like, yeah, I kicked you out because it's not safe place for you. I am protecting you. I'm protecting me. I'm protecting him. And I paid her an entire season's worth and said, I'm so sorry you're not coming back to the next season.
This is a bad situation. And I hear you, and I validate your experience here. And so I say these things because I can see where. I can see how easy it is to get swept up in the drama and the. And the pain of other people. But when you are starting your own business, you got to have your foundation set and ready, and I have my dukes up right now. But it's also like, guard yourself, right? Learn how to defend yourself. But even like, not have to defend yourself just to
protect yourself. Boundaries, you bound? Yeah, I just learned about that. Yeah, me too. Yeah, boundaries have boundaries. But this is like, the extra important part of this is I used to say this in private, but I'm definitely starting to say things publicly that I used to say in private. As a creator, as an artist, there's the creator and the consumer. As in, you know, Hollywood, there's the producer and the consumer. The consumer is.
Unless they are also producers, it is very hard for them to understand what you're doing in business. And so for business, for business talk for business peers have other people in your life who get that because they speak the same language as you. You don't speak the same language. Not always as the people who are purchasing your thing or being a part of whatever business is that you were there. Maybe it's B2B or B2C or whatever that is.
I think one of the most important understandings now, don't treat people like crap. Treat everybody well. Like, just be a good human. But also, it is a different world that we are in as entre as nerd entrepreneurs especially. But entrepreneurs nurture. Preneurs are even worse. This is even harder because our passions are so intertwined with business. Like right now, I'm making businesses so that I can one day sell them and then. And just keep that. Keep that creation moving and flowing
and not being so attached to it. Right. Um, so I am creating. I have the business of Sateen Phoenix Next Generation. And I also have these other businesses that I'm going to sell and it's going to be great. And I love that I can now create things and not be so tenderly intertwined that, like, they're my babies and a part of me is leaving. No, I am a whole person. I have a very strong sense of self now. So long answer that's interesting about the idea of. So I'm gonna.
I'm gonna bring up a stereotype. Chris and I are both artists. So, you know, it's very easy for an artist to get so emotionally attached. Right. That it's hard for them to separate. I mean, like, working with freelancers, working with any. Any visual artist or like. So I work in video. I'm now behind the camera, but for a while, I used to be in front of the camera. And I absolutely resonate with the idea of, you know, if you're not a producer.
It's really hard to talk to people in the film industry that aren't producers. And I knew that, but I didn't really understand it. And that's why I, I went into business school because I wanted to be a producer for film. But the idea that, you know, you are making these things because you're nerding really hard on something and you're like, I am going to make this a business and then I'm going to flip it. That is honestly not something I hear of very often, at
least from a nerdy art centric person. That's, that's kind of blowing my mind a little bit that you know this and you're like, this is what I like to do. It sounds like you like building the business, building the team, getting itself running and then saying bye bye. I had to be completely destroyed in order to figure this out. I literally had to. I mean I'm like, I meditate, I work out, I eat right. I'm like constantly.
I've done so many psychedelics at this point that I've done all the things and I've come back around to like give my universe findings. But it all comes down to non attachment create because you have to create. We made live streams and played games publicly. I run hundreds of games and I've done it because I literally can't breathe if I don't. But I also need to exhale and move on. And I see a lot of people and I'm like, this
is where the biohacking comes in. I see people, they hit their threshold, you know, like Queen of D and D. That's it. It's all I'm going to be like, what a boring life. Right? I'm going to make this company. I'm going to do this for 40 years. Oh, that sounds awful. How can you grow? How can you grow as a person? How can you inspire the people around you? Right. You're so right when it comes to people wrap their identity up in their work. Right.
And especially for nerdpreneurs is our identity is our nerdiness and what we love. And now we're going to try to make money at it. But you kind of washed over something that was really, really important that you kind of just said in passing and then went into some other wisdom. But you said I like to separate what I the activity from the person. And I think you said it great. I have heard it from Jim Rohn said this way. And I'm not a religious man. He was so he Said hate the sin, not the sinner.
And that might have even been Jesus. Who knows? I'm not religious, but at least three. People have said this before. Exactly. But, but, but the idea of, of separating the activity or the thing that you do from the person. And so that was a huge distinction in running my own business when I was working with people where their performance and we're going to
get into performance and biohacking soon. When, when people weren't performing at the levels that they were expected to or that were necessary for them to thrive within my organization as a sales organization, you had to really be careful around how to navigate. I'm not attacking you, but your actions are really bad. I actually hate that you're doing this, this and this. I love you, but this, this and this cannot keep going right. Whether it's arriving late or whether it's.
I'm not reading the manual that I said for you to read. Like if they're just not doing the things that are actually going to get them success as the manager and the leader of your organization, you're doing no one any good favors. You're actually not doing them any good if you continue to coddle their identity. Yes. Versus telling them what they need to do to be successful. And as you mentioned before, like letting people go and firing them. We actually, I heard something so good.
So good earlier today and I'm just going to share it. I'm going to rip it off. But from Mike McAllowis. Okay. And you might want to steal this, but he. In his organization, he doesn't fire people. He adds them to his alumni list. Isn't that so good? Oh, I loved it. I heard. I'm like, that is. Okay, look, we're gonna have to. We're leaning towards putting you into our alumni list now. And it's like.
And we used to say, okay, we're gonna launch people up in our organization or we're going to launch them out of our organization onto their next great thing. And so it's like let that sink in. Can I add to that? Absolutely. Please. Yeah. I just, I love that so much. Like I viscerally and feeling it throughout my body as the right thing to do and the right way to look at things. I gotta tell you, getting canceled. Most horrible thing. Would never wish on anyone. I had like it was very bad.
Failed suicide attempt bad. But the biggest learning was you gotta change the way you think about everything. You gotta change the way you think about it. I am not toxic. My behavior is toxic. I like when when people, when they come to you and they have crap to say or they face you and you don't like it, it's all a moment of learning and reflection, right? Whether you say it out loud to them or you take it home and you like contemplate on it, you meditate on it, everything is important.
And so the way you look at hire firing people, the way you look at hiring people, the way you allow people in, the way you move people out and through, it's just all so important. Spells spell like manifestation or spells, right? It's like I can say whatever you say and whatever you think comes to life, right? It, it becomes real because you think it. I can say, wow, my life was ruined because I got canceled. Or I can say, wow, getting canceled was the best learning of my life.
And also I hope other people can find other learning ways in their lives. You know, it is so important that if you are going to do something as crazy as start a business or more, you got to have positive self talk and you, you got to like, that has to resonate within you first and then be emanated out because you can't fake it, right? You can't be like, I'm going to give everybody gratitude today,
but I feel like crap. Well, you just now are everything that you say is going to radiate and everyone else is going to feel like crap. Even though it might not be vibrantly crappy. But that little thread that you've inserted. That is, that is powerful as a, as a CEO. Your health and well being is actually part of the business plan.
It's one of those things that people, you know, I learned that the hard way myself by burning out and like overworking and you know, not working out, not doing the regular daily habits that I need to be doing, not doing the things that I know put me into the peak performance state.
And it's so detrimental because then you do wind up showing up less for your people and you might be telling everybody else to do, but then when you tell people when you're out of integrity, all of your influence I think actually goes out the window. Yes. And the ability to impact and influence people comes from a place of personal integrity.
So with these boundaries or what we want to call are really not even boundaries, they're really just, you know, walls that you need to live in so that you can actually have your house in order and be able to build something much greater. You have to have that foundation. So you can go to a skyscraper, you know, 200, you know, floors high I'm vibing. Dude, this is great. I love this. I keep thinking back. Okay, got canceled. That sucked.
But right before I got canceled, I was doing Sateen's Quest. That's like adventures on cruise ships and mansions. I work, I organized it and I brought people in and we all were elated. And even if other people had things happening, we all worked it out together. And then I was me, I was making by 2020, I was making. And I'll say this out loud, I don't think I've ever said this before. I was making like 10 grand a month. Professional game mastering. Yeah, either it was.
I had like seven zoom, you know, things I was coaching for storytelling and game design. Xbox hired me for like stuff. I got hired by all these other live videos. I mean, I made a profession out of my hobby. And so when it, when I was torn away from it, I needed to take that year and a half. It was hard. I kept trying to come in and I was just like, I was spinning upside down. People are demanding, we still owe the Kickstarters and I'm gonna, I have like a whole thing I can say about that.
We made a lot of money on Kickstarter, on my husband's company. And so like that was real. All of that was the positive parts. But it was my own lack of inner integrity and the toxicity within myself that I had not addressed before or even noticed. And the lack of self reflection. The go, go, go. Otherwise they're going to eat me alive. Like, that was where that my responsibility and my lack of looking around and being like super present in all of the business actions.
That was my responsibility of why the business like fell apart. The business of me fell apart. You mentioned integrity and it reminds me of something you said earlier about if you're going to be a business owner, get your guard up, get your, you know, your foundation, get your, get your understanding of yourself, but also know how to set the boundaries. That's what I said. I'm not. Maybe you didn't say boundaries. We're like this. We're like this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, so you want to have a good idea of who you are is what I'm hearing. And you want to also have a good idea of how to defend yourself. And that doesn't mean just like combatively batting people away. What I mean, and I don't. Yeah, I'm not projecting. I just mean that I really like how people can know who they are and they can explain. Explain rationally where they're coming from in a way that defends their input and their thought and their contributions.
And that is what I hear you say. And that is something that I have very much been on the journey for the last. No, I don't know, but it feels like last five years, probably longer. But this idea of how do I contribute now that I'm at a position of management, I have to be able to put these visuals, these videos that I put out there and these ideas. I have to be okay with accepting feedback, but I also have to know when to stand my ground. When I didn't really ever have boundaries
up until I was about 30. And it's like, how. And so I say this to kind of get to a point. I feel like there are plenty of other nerds out there that don't that are similarly struggling to find their boundaries but also wanting to run a business. And how does somebody find their boundaries and start a business well enough to. Start a business In Nerdom? In Nerdom, that's so that's the hard part. I love the business world outside of Nerdom. It has been warm and welcoming and not painful at all.
It's been so human. When people fall, people are good at going to school, getting a job, paying their bills. For people who actually can, who've made it that far, they, they're good at that. That is not to say that they're doing what they want to do or they spent time doing what they want to do, they usually do the thing that they're supposed to do. And when you're doing something for someone else, it's easy. When you're doing something for you, oh my God, it is hard.
I don't think I've heard of more self doubt than people wanting to do what they normally do in the, in the nerd world. Yes. It's like not different except for it is. And it's different because the, the stakeholders are different. The stakeholders say, we own you because you're in our pool. Geek and Sundry, super fun. Obviously I was there for a really long time. We had a lot of fun together.
There was something that happened over Geek and Sundry era where people had the ability to tip $20, 25, $100. I watched the community shift and changed. They created something called Alpha. People were donating like a lot of money. Some people donate a hundred dollars every day. I mean, it was maniacal, right? Geek and Sundry is like, that's cool. But why don't we just like make our own TV station and we'll just charge you $5. So they made it. They spent all this time making it.
They put it out. People were livid, pissed off. That's not rational to me, to be upset that a company sees you, says, thank you for supporting us. We've now made a platform. You don't have to give us that money. You just. $5 to run it. And they basically boycotted it and said, no, we want to have the choice. They spent two years on this project, and people did not enjoy it. What I did see was in the chat, this ownership, this, like, you are doing an entertaining thing for me,
and you should do it for free. And also, I will pay you when I want to. Like, it's all the most wacky, bizarre, infantile. I'm not saying people are infantile or toxic, but I'm saying this behavior is like a. What I've seen in my. My stepdaughter, right? She's six and a half now. She's very mature. But, like, when she was younger, I'm like, oh, wow, that's entitlement. That's what that looks like. And so you gotta be careful.
You gotta know your audience when you're going into the nerd community. I literally. I'm like, okay, how do we charge the most minimal amount for this cruise event? I literally didn't even get paid for it. And I got message after message. You are exploiting us. You are trying to get money out. I'm like. I'm literally broke. Like, I. I'm not being able to make money off of this because I'm providing something. And I've. I've taken. I've given the discounts. I've.
I've taken it down, hoping that in a couple of years, enough people want to be a part of it, that I will make it in the long run. Satine, I want to ask something that. That might be. Hell, we might not use this. But I wanted to figure out a way to ask about some of the allegations and about people not being paid.
And I want to put this out there as a question, because what I'm hearing is you yourself are okay with not being paid, because you love it to your very core, which, I mean, phenomenal, you know, first off. But it sounds like there's a possibility that when you don't think about you needing to be paid, it's easy to not think about other people needing to be paid. And I'm wondering how that ties in, if at all. If somebody else.
If it was true that a person hadn't gotten paid, then I can See where your. Where you were thinking that. Imagine our accountant pays all of the invoices that come in. And when I work for somebody and I want to get paid, I send an invoice. Pretty straightforward, right? So there was a woman who posted, I never got paid. The same woman handed in her product, you know, months late after. And I had the team saying, and this also, this is not my company, so I can't speak to some things.
Handed her her thing late. The entire team was like, we got to cut her out. Like, she is not showing up. And I was like, nope, I love her. I believe in her. I know she's going to make a kick ass product. And she did, months later. And then she posted it online. I never got paid. I'm like, wait a minute, what? And then I think our accountant reached out and they're like, you never sent us an invoice. So she goes, oh, it got lost. Here it is again. We never got a receipt that it was sent.
We got whatever. Maybe she messed up, maybe she didn't. It's none of my business. They paid her immediately. And so I made this thing. And then so she took the post down. But when people are angry, and this is one of my big life lessons, when people are angry, they will attach themselves to a moment in time. That moment in time is real for them, even if it has nothing to do with them, right? And so they screenshotted it so it looks, oh, my God, we didn't pay people. I'm like, okay, who else?
I know there is one woman out there that I did not pay. And she was my assistant. And I, after I left this company, I, like, didn't pay her. And we had this thing where I'm like, when I get money, I will pay you. And it was like I was like almost homeless. It was like a whole bad thing. This was like 2018, 2019. She goes, that's okay. I'm like, well, send me the invoice.
And so I can't find that invoice. That is the one thing that I know that like, man, I wish you would send me another invoice so I could pay it. But I will not pay money that I do not have proof that I owe something. And so other people are like, I never got paid. It's like, send an invoice. Now here's the real question. Do you want to get paid or do you want a platform? Can you elaborate? I don't. Yeah, maybe I'd love to, because you've mentioned being canceled a number of times.
And we've talked. We kind of danced around it. Could maybe you just walk us through what that situation was. Totally went through. Just because I think a lot of people who maybe this is the first time they're ever hearing about you and they've heard cancellation, they can make up all sorts of stories about what it is that might be way worse than what it actually is. So let's. Yeah, and that's totally fine. What it actually is. So that it gets handled properly.
Yeah, yeah. So I'll come back to that to finish this thought. It's if you actually wanted to get paid, you would send me an invoice. I made it very clear on my, my video. I said, if you didn't get paid, send an invoice and we'll pay you. Not hard. Right? We didn't. I didn't get any message. I got nothing. So anyone that wants to say that, I'm like, okay, either you want to get paid or you want to platform for something.
And this is where things start getting a little funny where all of a sudden, so my husband yelled at somebody, said very like mean things and said, oh, you're acting like a child. It was like pretty mean, but not like, ruin our life mean, in my opinion. Right. It's like, okay, yeah, I can totally understand how he hurt this guy's feelings. Maybe triggered something that created another trauma response. We were friends after that. There's like politics behind the scenes that I found out about
later that made me go, oh, man. Of course, of course that hurt, like, broke me. But also there's like other. And I can't bring up these other people because then they do a thing. But imagine that there's jealousy in the, in the arena where I'm literally doing the thing that I love to do and I have to, because I will. I can't breathe if I'm not doing it. And then there's other people doing things for ego. They're doing things for validation. And this is the whole social climbing
thing in Hollywood. Right? So roundabout. My tattoo artist got upset with my husband because my husband yelled at him over text message after doing a three day tattoo. And he even warned my husband, he's like, you're going to have chemicals in your body and it is going to make you aggro. And it did. And that's real. And he was sorry about it. And like a year later, he actually went up to him and apologized for it and he goes, thanks. But apparently he wasn't over it.
There were other elements that happened that I found out about later that led to the cancellation. And I was like, oh, okay. Then suddenly somebody says, well, this happened to me and he was a dick to me and he was a dick and she was a dick. And then this woman that was a producer of the thing just sateen made me hold her coffee and lorded her power over me. And I was like, hold on here, hold on a second. Hold on. I'm sorry.
You asked me if I needed help and I said, yeah, can you hold my coffee while I'm on one? Videotaping. We're videotaping for like 10 hours a day and I'm going to need some coffee, but it looks kind of tacky. Then she got mad at me for this, that and that, and she became this like whole leader of this army that literally came after. And then Brian Foster got like triggered because he was in a cult. And then he decides that, like, oh, Jameson's a cult leader, not a cult leader.
He's like introverted and literally, like, can't be around people for very long. So here you have stories. We're literally in a gaming community where we come up with stories about these nefarious characters, right? And yeah, one person had ammo, another person said, go get them. Use your ammo. And boom. And then what I found out later is there was like a whole, like, plan and they wanted. People wanted things. I don't even know if I'm. I should go into it or allowed to go into it.
It wasn't a, A thing that was like, you know what I'm feeling like this. It was, There was a catalyst that happened. Happened. And my husband is a very. He was a very angry person and he yelled at a lot of people. He yelled at a lot of people. In business, you can't do that. You just can't. And so there was a thing where he coerced me to be a part of one of the, of the yelling at my tattoo artist. And I was like, yep, I got coerced and that sucked. And I'm an adult and we hung out.
The guy was at our wedding. He like, drank with us at our wedding. So all of a sudden he's canceling us. Like, come on, there's more going on here. Yeah, so that's kind of like the canceling thing. There was no, like, racism or like sexism, but people, they, they wanted a platform and they, and I had a big ass platform. People were coming out of the woodwork. Well, you are. You were the queen of D and D, right? Like, there is a. Yeah, but what even is that? It's just.
It's like floating words in the ether, Right? Exactly. Like, we attach whatever meaning and story we want to that and many other people. Like, but. But to be the, you know, sort of the couple or the people of D and D at that time, which D and D was like. I don't want to say it's not huge now, but, like, there was a real peak around that time where everything was about D and D and everywhere online was about D and D and. And so.
And when you compare cancellations in the D and D community to, like, cancellations on the national stage and what people get canceled for, it's way tamer than, like, you're not. Like, when you step into the real business world outside of the nerdpreneur area, I am not surprised you find it so nice. And I got shamed. Like, shame, shame. Like, who does that? Like, that's not a good human thing to do. I think I remember sending you a message being like, you
got a mob coming for you for very little. Like, I'm looking at even, you know, these screenshots and things that people say and stuff, and I'm just like, this is a sensitive community. This is a very sensitive community. I'm not saying that it's not important to sometimes be sensitive and be around that, I think. But as someone who has, you know, as someone who's been in real business and sales and been rejected hundreds of times and had, like. And been broke and bankrupt and all sorts of.
And come back and had money, like, the big picture of dealing with something like, oh, my God, this person was really rude to me and a little bit, like, aggressive or was loud or was it. I don't know what yelling over text even is. I don't even know what that is, but. But the idea of that being the reason why you are canceled was shocking to me at that moment. So I do just want to say that I was.
I was sort of, like, shocked to watch the whole thing as it was unfolding because it said more about our community at DND than I think it did necessarily about you. And not to say we don't have responsibilities in ourselves, and we have to obviously continually grow and improve and take responsibility for what we did do. I just thought the time of what it was on the blow up of what it was seemed disproportionate to, like, real world problems. Thank you. Yeah, you know, you're right.
And also, you know, I just. I also feel very responsible that here I am with this massive platform and we're doing this thing where we're playing a game. We're getting into people's imaginations, but not even just their imaginations, we're getting into their six year old imagination. The little part of them that wanted, that wants armor, that needs armor. Right. So I start. I went back to school, I'm studying psychology because I. It is important for me to understand what.
How we all relate to one another and how we are interacting and the damage we can do. You've got people who are literally saying, please help me. A lot of the accusations are I wasn't seen. I felt rejected, I felt abandoned by Sateen. And so once I like did a year and a half worth of therapy and like real deep diving of like, oh my God, I was like their mother figure. And it's, I'm not even, I'm not saying like, oh, they looked at me like I'm their mom.
But like way down deep in the psyche I had. I gave nothing. I was a canvas for people to project upon. And I literally did that. Like, I did that. I didn't want people to know who I was really on the inside. Nobody knew me. I'd walk at a convention, people would talk at me, I would talk at up on the panels. But I didn't give any of my personal like, humanness. And
so here they are projecting, projecting. And I. And here whatever platform I'm on just crumbles because it's made out of, you know, cellophane. Because it's the human part, you know, it's the part that people forget. Because, you know, in Joseph Campbell's idea of myth and celebrity status, in current society, you are what people are using as their symbol, their image.
Yes. But forgetting that, you know, whereas Hercules may or may not have been a guy who people put in this pedestal, it's a lot harder to knock Hercules down if he was not a real person. Whereas you are a real person. Yeah. And if somebody says, can I help you? And my therapist has been telling me, dude, you got to accept help. It was like one of those perfect storm moments. And I said, yes, I am human. I would like help. I'm tired of doing all the things. Can you help me do a thing? Yeah.
Yes, I will accept it. Nope, you are. I. You're supposed to say no. Who made that rule? I don't know about that. It's not what I'm supposed to say. I cannot read your mind. And that is how it happens a lot. You've Got game masters at a table. It seems like we can read your mind. It seems like we are these magic creatures who are like weaving these tales, but really we are just people. Actors are people, musicians are people, people are people, creators. You know, we make mistakes.
We are not all knowing, and we need to be treated and respected the way a person would respect themselves. But then I guess that is the next path of part of it, right. If they're not respecting themselves and they felt a lot of shame and a lot of rejection, it's easy if you don't have that self reflection to put it out onto another person and then attack them. And like, literally, that's what I'm learning in therapy and in psychology. Right. But the problem is, is I'm a business.
And so if I get bullied, the business gets bullied. Money doesn't come in. Suddenly the money that we made on the Kickstarter goes to the entire team. And like, I never saw anything. And then I was jobless for a long period of time. Couldn't get work. I couldn't even get up, you know, so it's like, do you want to be a brand? I guess that's the. This is a warning episode. Yeah, yeah, very much. Is like, you know, what does it take and what are the potential consequences?
Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask one more thing, and maybe we can move on to some of the biohacking stuff, because I know we're running lower on time, but I just wanted to ask, is there anything that you would want to say to the people that canceled you now? No, absolutely not. I've said everything I want to say. I would say that if somebody thinks that I owe them money, please send me an invoice. In a year and a half, this many came in. For everyone listening, that's a zero. That's a big zero. Yeah.
Right? Awesome. Well, gamify your life. That is what you do now. You are a transformational life coach. And I love the fact that you're using the nomenclature of nerd dom in much of what you're doing for people to maximize performance. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you found your way into this after the cancellation and everything that happened there. How did you find your way into this new rendition of Satine? We'll call it a reinvention.
You just finished part one of our interview with Satine Phoenix. There was just too much in this interview to squeeze into just one show, so we made it a two parter. Now, if you liked part one, you're definitely not going to want to miss part two. So hit follow in your podcast app and part two will show up in the next seven days. Thanks again for listening and as always, everyone, keep it nerdy.