How D&D in a Castle Started with Professional Dungeon Masters - Interview 12

You know, there's the Mike Tyson line. Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face. And honestly, I had been studying and learning about entrepreneurship and talking about it and for so long, and read books and, like, went to fancy business schools and had lots of professors and people who had made it. I heard it all. But until you do it, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Nerdpreneur. You know, I love my work. All right, welcome to Nerdpreneur, where we have a fun conversation with people making money with their nerdy passion. My name is Chris, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Frank. Hello. And today we have a couple of very special guests. Their names are Cam and Tara. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you. Thank you. Hello. So, Cam and Tara, what is your nerdy passion? My nerdy passion is creating fantastical, immersive experiences for people.

That's my passion. So the experience that I'm currently working on or currently creating and manifesting is D and d in a castle. So that is everything that's in the name is exactly what you think it is. We get a castle, a legit 14th century castle that also happens to be a luxury hotel, and we fill it full of dungeons and dragons.

So we have dungeon masters from all over the world, professional dungeon masters, streamers, game designers, actors, and we play dungeons and dragons round the clock for four days and nights in a castle. And that's basically it. It's the experience of that round the clock playing experience that was original to a lot of players when they were younger and used to do that a lot and don't get to do that so much now that they're grown ups.

So we get them into the castle, and we have a fantastic experience, separated from the Muggle world, as it were, and from everyday life, where we can just dive in and go on an adventure with our fellow travelers and questers and dive into a game that you don't really get anywhere else because of the immersive quality of being together in a castle. I'm in. Sign me up right now. Oh, my God. You had me at D and D in a castle. I'm not gonna lie.

That sounds so cool. Okay, I have so many questions now about this whole thing. How did D and D in a castle actually start? Good question. So, d and D in a castle started when I was six years old, and I came home one day, and my dad had brought home the red box from a garage sale. I think I convinced my older sister Tara and my other sister, Angie, to play this game, and I was very excited, and this was the greatest game I'd ever played. And then they didn't necessarily want to play ever again.

And then five years later, I met another buddy of mine, Lauren, who taught him, and his brother played d and d, and I got roped in and, you know, joined the stranger things gang. During that time, we really, like, always had this dream of growing up and playing d and d in a castle, and it was sort of lodged in there somewhere.

I didn't know how this would work, whether or not I would, you know, we would own the castle or live in someone else's castle, or there was a castle in the basement or something. Somehow there was a castle, and we were playing d and d in it. Just sort of like

an entrenched dream anyways. Grew up, played d and d through high school, and, you know, had the old gang of friends that played every weekend and, you know, the beloved characters and everything, and then went off about life and just sort of never really got back to it. And I think it was, you know, some of us played here and there, but we always talked about playing again. We always talked about getting back together.

And I realized, like, we were getting old, and we had been talking about it for a long time, and middle age was rolling around, and I thought, this is abs. This is, like, not acceptable. So I promise I'll get to your questions. This is all resonating right now. I'm hearing the story, and I'm like, you know, what are you just, like, talking about my life right now? There's a reason why the whole generation

is having this resurgence. It's like, collective midlife crisis that we're sharing with the world, recognizing that, you know, it wasn't going to happen once we made it happen.

So what we did is I booked a house in Seattle, and none of us lived in Seattle at the time, so we booked an Airbnb for a long weekend, and we all converged in Seattle, and we thought we'd, like, get together and hang out and talk about old times and, you know, play some d and D. But as soon as the dice hit the table, that was like it. We just played around the clock and we played this really intense three day game, and it was like, play til five in the morning.

And then I was dming and they dragged me back to the table at like nine and like, off. Like, it just, it was crazy. And by the time it was over, just really had this appreciation for like, oh, that's what the world needs. That's the thing that's missing from the world, is an opportunity to connect in a creative and safe and inclusive and honestly creative.

Like the opportunity to do something generative together and all the wonderful things that people say about dungeons and dragons and how it's a great outlet and so on and so forth. But just to really realize that in our adult life that spending three days of playing d and D is not really very possible unless you take vacation time as you make a vacation out of it. And of course, you can always play d and D in a basement.

But while flying home, I was just really thinking, what would it take to get people to spend their vacation? And then the old distant dream of playing D and d in a castle crept up on me, and I just had this idea. And when I landed, I called my sister Tara, because I'm incapable of most logistical efforts. If you know me well, you'll know that to be true. But Tara ran events in Canada, and we always wanted to do something together.

She was doing the pride and prejudice ball, and we had done things like gone to the Jane Austen festival and stuff together, and sort of always had this idea of doing something. And, you know, I pitched the idea by saying, I have an idea that's unfortunately, when you hear it, you're going to have to do it. And she said, you're going to hate me. Which is pretty true. I'm sure it's pretty accurate. And it was all in the name D and d in a castle,

and the rest was history. But really, we set out to try and achieve that magic and capture the sort of therapeutic effect of taking vacation time to play D and D, as opposed to, you know, run away from, from your problems or try and escape in other ways. We thought, hey, why not escape through D and D? And it's proven to be a really innovative and unique alternative for a vacation. It's up there with taking a cruise or

some people's vacations. They plan, you know, going through Europe or taking a backpacking adventure, et cetera. Like, you take the same amount of money in time that you would do that and go and play D and d in a castle. It's like, well, what else could you do with that money? Well, you could get some of the world's best dungeon masters, and you could get a whole castle, and you could pack everyone in there and eat, sleep, and roll dice from dust till dawn. Totally. But it's entirely inaccurate.

No one plays from dusk till dawn. That doesn't sleep. Well, there are. I don't know. There are some people who would play a vampire game all night. We interviewed a larper who would definitely do that. I think so, yeah. Noted our event. Some people play from dawn till dawn, like, just, you know, around the clock, but it's not a nocturnal event by any means. D and d in a castle is like the big carrot, right? That people, when they hear it.

I had this experience where I'm like, okay, I'm in, like, right away, even just reading it. D and d in a castle. That's a great idea. That's awesome. Tara hadn't played d and D since she was six years old, and she was in when she heard the title DNA guy.

Exactly. But I think you guys probably have a. You mentioned a bunch of carrots, and one of them happens to be, I think, the celebrity dnd dungeon masters that you have found and attracted into this event, which I would love for you to talk a little bit about who your dungeon masters are and maybe a little bit about how you found that talent. Boy, we would love to name drop, because we have some amazing people that come to our castle. And I want to say we basically didn't do a lot.

They kind of just kept coming. Like, Jeremy Crawford, for example. Can I come to your castle? Like, okay, Jeremy Crawford, you can come to our castle. Satine Phoenix showed up. She's been with us from the very beginning. She was one of our first ever DM's, and she came. She said, heck yes, I'll come and play D and D in your castle. Elisa Teague as well. She's a game designer, and if you are familiar with her, James Intricasso, he's now with MCDM, formerly another podcaster of some renown.

And, oh, gosh, Mark Muir came. He's from my town. We're both from Edmonton. That's usually how I tell people. Edmonton. Yes. It's Mark Mears hometown, the voice of Commander Shepard. So. And he's also on a number of streams. Gosh. B, Dave Walters, guy from how to be a great GM. We get in trouble at this point because we're forgetting someone's name. Well, here, let me help you. Mark Humes, the mcElroy's you've got. And Travis, I saw. Yeah, Travis. And Clint McElroy. We have Mark Sherlock humes,

Gabe hicks. That's right. Oh God. Who are we forgetting? We had Ginny D. Quick, think quick. We had Ginny D. At Alaska Hassle, which was epic. He played a great game. B Dave Walters. B Dave Walters, who's from Dark Black Dice Society. It's okay. I should have a list in front of me. We have so many be amazing people. This actually goes into kind of a question about it, though, because you have so many DM's and at a single event.

How many dungeon masters are you having at this event and how many people per game? Right. So we have six people around the table. That's their cap on the players. But we sometimes supplement that with actors. So we have professional actors that come in and sit in as NPC's to give a little bit of life on both sides of the table. Like add a little something fun. Like we had Kellen Coleman, who you might know from the office or from BoJack Horseman or the other shows. She's newsroom. Newsroom.

Anyways, she came and would drop in with NPC characters for different tables. She played the Raven queen that just was told her instructions were to burst in randomly at some point during the adventure and deliver prophecies to the table. I think that was for Mark's table and stuff like that. Just to add some of this, there are people who want to come that don't necessarily have as much experience dming. So we still use that enthusiasm for the game.

And I think what's really interesting is that there's the fact that this has attracted guests and people come back year after year, but then there's the fact that this attracts talent. And what is it that's happening in the industry right now where playing dungeons, drag dungeons and dragons in a castle is like this hot thing to do to build street cred as like a celebrity DM. Like, it's awesome. I love it.

But it really tells us that we've hit the cultural nail on the head that this is, this is a place where, I mean, they're coming, they're helping us by attending. They're bringing their enthusiasms. Enthusiasm. They want to share it with their followership. They're in it because they want to make dungeons and dragons a central part of their career, or they're already career DM's that are now finding a platform for sharing that with the world. So we have different types of dungeon masters.

We have dungeon masters that come as performers, like DM's, as performers. We've got writers, like people who have written a lot of the content that people have played. Mark Humes. I'm going to get the names all wrong. James Intricaco has written a ton of stuff. Jeremy Crawford. Rose. Rose. Hannah Rose. Chris Lindsay. Chris Lindsay. Amanda Hammond. Yeah. T. Jeremy Stangroom from Cobalt Press. The three black halflings who are now down to two, but they're still called three.

Yeah. Anyways, there's people coming with their different styles, and there's various sort of incentives, and that's one of the conversations we have with talent, when we're talking to people about coming, is making sure the incentives align right. People want to come and they're there to make the event the best possible.

Our secret sauce, like, the strategic secret to it, to, like, making this successful event, is that it really is the game, the castle and the vacation and everything is, you know, like the story. Like, what I learned from going to Seattle and playing with my friends is that it was. It wasn't about Seattle. It wasn't about the house. It wasn't about the things you thought you were going to do there. They're nice, but it's the game that is the. Is the crown jewels.

And so everything we do, we think, how does this make the game better? Whether it's bringing additional talent, it's like, are they going to actually come and contribute to a better game? What is the space like, are the gaming spaces good? Is the castle? There are a lot of castles in Europe, and we've been to all of them to scout them to figure out, is this a good place to actually play D and D? Is there a tavern nearby that we can use for the.

You meet in a tavern event is every little aspect is about, like, how do we plan out the session zero? And when do we do the DM media stuff so that it doesn't interfere with people's game? And every little thing is about how do we make sure that when people leave, we've broken d and D for them so that they can't get that game anywhere else. Like, no one can deliver the game that we give because no one else has a castle and all the talent and all these things.

That's not to disparage. Like, of course, people's home game is amazing. It's wonderful, but it's different. It's not. You can't get that experience again. And what I'm hearing here from a business standpoint is that you are the. You've really mapped out your customer experience. You have found that way to essentially retain and attract people because it sounds to me like you don't actually approach the talent. They seem to be coming to you. They're like, I'm wanting to do that.

Yeah, we get a little bit of both. We get definitely. Yeah, we definitely get both. There's people that come out of the woodwork that we never would have thought. And it's taken us time to sort of ramp up, like, oh, this is, you know, we should go out and find people and ask them like that. But those relationships are so incredible. And I love the DM community, you know, part of it for the talent that comes and the dungeon masters for them. Like, the industry needs this.

The profession of dungeon mastering is emerging as a very. What used to be kind of laughed at or considered not a serious. It's like professional dungeon master. There was even newspaper articles like, oh, professional dungeon master. That's not a thing. But it is, and it's emerging as a serious profession for people. And they need an outlet and an opportunity to come together as professionals. And I just wish there was more space because the limiting factor on the castle is it's only so big.

We can only pack so many people into it, and we don't want to sacrifice the game. There will only ever be six players at a table. There will only ever be, you know, and we make sure that everyone gets their 8 hours of D and D at their table, plus one shots, et cetera. So, like, the logistics all has to move perfectly. But, yeah, it's all about making the best game possible. Wow, I'm curious. When this came to an idea for you, were you already an entrepreneur?

So it was like, oh, yeah, we'll just create this and become a business person. Or what were you? Because you just got off the idea and then like, started a business and started making it happen. We were just insane. We're very insane. I mean, what's that mental shift? We're very. I think we were very entrepreneurial. Tara always ran events. Sorry, I'm doing all the talking here, but, you know, Tara always ran events and I always had some

seven projects up my sleeve. But, you know, we were both working full time, and we just decided that this was an event that we were going to take the plunge and do. It wasn't the intention necessarily of building a company, but we knew that if it grew, it could, you know, really become something. So it's turning into just a gigantic side hustle that, you know, it's just become its own thing.

But I had, you know, I went to business school, and I was working in tech as a product manager, so I had, you know, a lot of understanding about how these things work, but a lot of it was, you know, there's the Mike Tyson line. Everyone has a plan to, like,

get punched in the face. And honestly, I had been studying and learning about entrepreneurship and talking about it and for so long and read books and, like, went to fancy business schools and had lots of professors and people who had made it. I heard it all, but until you do it, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. And just, it was really many, many learning experiences from absolute day one, as we are still learning many things.

So prior to starting this, we always joke that Cam's the dean D and I castle. That's how our company is sort of split. So I was actually running, as Cam keeps mentioning, I was running other events. So I ran an event called the Pride and Prejudice Ball, which, again, was something I sort of called Camden.

We were sitting, having Father's Day brunch in a fancy place, and, and we'd been to the Jane Austen festival a few times, which is I'm always drawing Cam into my nerdy things, and he's always, like, very game. So when he called me into his nerdy thing, you know, I was in. That was my, that's my other nerdy passion, is Jane Austen and the world of Jane Austen. So creating that historical experience for people is something I had done, and I had some experience in events for

guests and sort of a niche market event. And so I kind of recognized the spark. So he says, when he called me and he says, you're. I've got an idea you're not going to be able to say no to. And that was his knowing me, that I'm a sucker for a good idea. I don't have to know D and D, but I. I know the resonance. And I would say I'm d and d adjacent. You know, all the costumes, for sure, right? Costumes, all the things. I'm a little more Larpy by nature. This is not a Larpy event.

Indiana Castle is not a Larpy event, but you can definitely dress up if you want to, and there's opportunity for that. But so that was kind of my background and my recognition. I was always in the next room, you know, making a cake. You know, that's what I was doing something. And once in a while, they'd invite me to join in the game, and I'd be like, I'm just gonna make a cake. So I was there, but I know all. It's all there in the background.

But, Tara, did you ever play? I mean, I know that it was mentioned that you played when you were a kid, but did you ever play between then? And we know, really, to be quite. Honest, it's sort of almost. It's kind of embarrassing, but also kind of hilarious. And so I don't know if it's, like, a good secret or should stay a dark secret that I don't play d and d, but I. Yet. Yeah, I always say, yet, hey, I'm.

With you on that. No, there's so many people that I want to get into d and D. So that's what I always say. But it's a key indicator of the myth that, you know, not myth, I guess it's real that if you want to ruin a hobby, make it a profession, because you would think that, like, it was always intended, like, Tara would join a game or we play some d and d. I was intended on playing

some d and d at some point. It's just like, when you're running the business, there's, you know, no way that, like, you can do both. And I managed to. I dm'd for, like, a set of friends at one of the events in 2019. But that was so that I knew the experience of what it was like to play, and it was epic. It was a great time. But for the most part, my joy comes from knowing the joy that I'm creating. When you hear the people talk about the game afterwards,

you're like, I know. You're like, I don't know, but I know I wasn't there, but I was there. As an entrepreneur, the kind of a reality that I think any entrepreneur will relate to is the same thing with pride and prejudice. Ball. I wanted to go to a particular ball, and I couldn't find it, so I was going to make it myself. But of course, I never get to go to that ball because I'm in the background. I'm dealing with the hotel. I'm talking to these people. I'm creating this experience for people,

and I get my own joy out of that. When I stand on the stage and I call the dances, and we really do the dances, and anyone can dance like they're in pride and prejudice. And I cry every time because it's so, so beautiful to see this experience happening. And sometimes at the castle, just seeing the joy and the experience is really moving and emotional to see and to know. And it's always kind of weird when you.

You go to this castle and then all of these strangers show up and you kind of feel like, what are you doing? In my dream? You know, you're real people. Like, this was a thing in my head. And now I'm here in a castle, and I don't know any of you. You're not my brother cam that I called and bribed to come to bath, England. You're people who just chose to come and experience my dream. And I think. I don't know, but I imagine entrepreneurs all have that feeling, but that you never get to.

You never get to do it. I'll never get to dance at my own ball. I'll never get to play Dean in a castle the same way as a guest. I also write novels because, again, I write Jane Austen spin off novels because I wasn't finding what I wanted. But I can't read that novel. I wrote it.

I can't tell you how many times, as we've been interviewing people, we get the nerdpreneurs out there like you, that are just following their passion, going after it, creating something, and there is this moment of disbelief that all of them tend to have when it actually works. Yeah. When they. When they first make a dollar or when they first make enough dollars to actually live off of. Yeah. And I'm curious, because this. Maybe this is. Why would they feel this way?

But did anyone say you were a little crazy going after this when you said you were going to? Oh, man, I muted myself. You couldn't hear my uproarious laughter. Our friends, our family. My husband definitely said, you are 100% forbidden from doing this. Family, friends, everyone we ever met said we were absolutely insane. Because we went in. We just did it. We just booked. We rented a castle in France. They're not cheap. People are like, oh, this is so expensive. It's like,

did you read the title of the event? It's. It's a castle. It's not D and Da in a Holiday inn. It's D and D, which is great. I highly recommend Holiday Inn. And people are like, I could organize my own thing and I could play, and it's like, go ahead, please. I love it. I'll come, and then I won't have to order. If you plan it, I will come. Yeah. We need an event for you two to go to. What's your vacation? Right. D and D in a basement. That's what we're working on.

I wanted to ask you also, because we've established both of you have full time jobs. Youre a both parents, and you're doing this out of love for what you're doing. How do you juggle all of that? And specifically, I would like to focus on how do you juggle creating D and d in a castle? Since it's not your full time job. You want to take that one. Sarah, I get asked this question quite a lot, actually, and the genuine answer is you just let all your standards slide.

It's just a progressive lowering of standards. I have three children, and I'm just a negligent parent. Like, there's no question about it. I don't do housework. I'm like, I get away with what I get. Like, there's no magic. And I just also don't sleep. And I probably will live a shorter life because, you know, years of my life will be gone from that reality, but the years that I got, I will have created this. I will have done this. I will have made this happen for people.

And the crying that happens, the soulful crying that happens at the end of these events, the stories we hear, the impact that this has, and I sounds really extreme and kind of crazy, but I say it sometimes that I believe we are literally building world peace because we are putting people, there are people at those tables. If they were in any other context, they would definitely not talk to each other. There are people from very different backgrounds.

And through this game and through this experience and through this happiness, through this joy and passion, through this laughter and all of the turmoil of it, through all of this, they are able to be friends. And from there is where we're going to be able to move forward. And I know it's only like six people at a time around the table, but it's more than I would otherwise be creating. So, you know, it feels like a positive spirit to be sending into the world and a positive experience.

And people can experience this without any, there are no negative side effects of D and D. It's true experience without any extreme repercussions. And this is such a. I'm so behind this, this entrepreneur like spirit that you have that is driving you, because entrepreneurs don't do it for the money. Right. Especially nerdpreneurs don't.

It's like this bigger vision of the impact that you're creating that really drives an entrepreneur or a nerdpreneur, I think, especially to be successful and that. And I've always. And I've always said that everyone loves D and D. They just don't know it yet, and they will. And I'm saying that this might be a gateway. And you mentioned Tara, the person who had read all the books but never, ever played the game. What does that

do to someone's psyche? To be, like, wishing for that and never being able to, and then to give them that experience, that's a life changing experience for someone. When you encourage people to play a game that they don't usually play. I've done this a number of times where you're, like, just come out. I've convinced people and rolled them to come into the game. And I didn't have a castle, unfortunately. I just had to be, like, to show up on Wednesday. I'll get you a character sheet.

You have to almost trick people into playing d and d the first time. Right? It's like, we're gonna. Drinks are on me. Yeah. We're gonna have nachos. It's gonna be all out free food to show up. You don't have to. And then what's so funny is, over the course of that experience, over the course of that first night, right. You see changes in people as they get into it, and they become this character. And I love that.

That vision of seeing how people shift and move and be moved by something that is 100% happening in their head and on a table and in the. This little group of people that they're friends with. And now they become a stronger and more bonded group that understands other family. And I witnessed this when you. There has to be a collective experience to create this.

And that's when I say immersive, fantastical events, there's a participatory aspect that is also what differentiates it from a con, you know, that and from a lot of other events is that you contribute, and what you contribute is what you get out. And that's. I see that at the ball as well, and I see that at the castle, you start out with individuals or couples or small groups, and they're all their ways, you know, in their groupings, and by the end of it, you've, like, blended them.

You've broken down that, and they become a community. And that's so powerful. That's why it makes me cry when I see them doing the dancing and they're moving in unison. They become a community by the end of it. You can't tell who came with whom. You really can't. They're a unified group. You can't tell who came with whom. That's a good way to put it. I think that we're translating this to business advice. I think this is ostensibly a business advice. We have no business advice. Our business.

You want to make money, don't talk to us. Yeah, well, you know, it's tough being in a business where people care. It's actually tough if you're making cardboard boxes. Things work on paper. They work in real life. When you work in an industry where people care deeply about what they do, none of the economics makes sense because people will work to death for free against you or with you. Right.

And so if you're working in nerd or labor of love industries, you have to model yourself after another labor of love industry and navigate the good and bad of that. So, for example, the music industry, the film industry, these are labor of love industries. They're art, they're people's passions and hearts and souls going into what they're doing. But someone over the years has figured out how to make money at it. So producing D and D in a castle, because we have talent that

comes and they're bringing their passion. We have players that are coming to an experience, a creative event. A lot of the model happens around a music industry esque type event. And in that way, it's got a bit of a music festival feel. But the difference is you get a three day long concert with your, in this shared experience with the people that you're with. But another word that sticks out is vision.

I know you were saying this ability to create a vision, one is the vision of the experience for the user. And I think that's extremely important to have the guest experience or user, or buyer or customer, whoever it is that you're working for, to understand what exactly are they going to experience. And I would recommend people pick up a book or two about customer experience, design, or even about operations management.

Because a lot of what you go through as a customer, you don't realize it, but you're being processed. You're being processed by the marketing funnel, you're being processed by, you know, the sales team, you're being processed by even for like, you bought a thing online. How did they find you? How did you buy it? How was the customer service? How did like so much thought went into you when you made that purchase. Right.

And understanding what are all the elements that have to, you know, be there for that person to have from their perspective, this experience you want to create as a tight vision. The other is the vision of the full. And people often talk about, you know, you've gotta. You've gotta have a vision of what you're building, and entrepreneurs have to be visionaries and so on and so forth. I don't find that entirely helpful because it doesn't necessarily tell you which vision you should have.

It sounds like you could just have any vision and it would work. I think that the tactical thing to put behind that is something called minimum efficient scale. The ability to say, what does this look like when it runs on its own? What does this look like when it hits a critical mass? You know, how many tickets is that? How many DM's is that? How big is the venue? How many people? And there's a reason why we started with a castle, because it doesn't work. Can't do it smaller than a castle. It's.

This has a minimum efficient scale that's actually really quite large. And we're still getting that vision in place, but you can start to see it come together when, like, the critical mass of the people talking about it and the talent that's coming and so on and so forth. If we didn't have the talent that, you know, that is coming to deliver the level of game that they have in the type of venue that they have for the, you know, it wouldn't. All the pieces wouldn't come together.

So having that high resolution image of what is the minimum efficient scale of your business, I think is a little more helpful than, you know, have a vision of what you want to build. Totally. You touched on so many things, and Chris and I both, right now, we're looking at each other, fighting to who gets to talk. And I started, so I'm going to talk. You have initiative. Yes, there's that. Oh, thanks. I see what you said.

Yeah. So the vision that you have acted on, and you talked about the vision as a kid, and when you got that in your mind and you shared it with your sister, did you know, like, this has been on my mind for so long, and everything I have done to this point is working towards that, or was it kind of like, well, I'll see how it goes? No, I think it was more the former. And I think enough so that I knew Tara would also have the same realization that it's instinctual.

It's not like we had a conversation or spreadsheets shared about. We eventually got to the spreadsheets. But being able to work with your sibling means that you can say something like d and d in a castle, and they. It's like everything lines up. It's like, okay, all those trips we did to all those trips to England, the events, the type of people we're going after, the scale of the market, the. Everything just sort of makes sense. Like, yes, that is a vision that has the movie.

Now we got to work out the details, but I think, you know, we were looking for that. We didn't know what we were looking for. We wanted to do something. We didn't even have, like, active intent. It wasn't like we were on, you know, systematically looking for startup ideas. But, you know, we always wanted to do something in that vision. Or, you know, you said entrepreneurs don't do it for the money, as some do, but maybe not in certain areas, but it's for the creating something.

You have a thing you want to build, and you're not going to stop till it's done right, because you know what it is. You know it's going to work if you can build it that way. And that's the importance of the minimum efficient scale. I know it has to have all these pieces in place, and we're going to keep going until we get those pieces in place, because if we do, it's going to work. But the vision and the clarity around just, you know, d and d in a castle, that could mean a lot

of things to a lot of people. I don't know. I don't know what it could mean. But to Tara and I meant something pretty specific, and it was, you know, move very quickly into execution as to what that was. And it's not like it was all successful. There's many horrible ideas and many failures along the way, but, you know, the same direction right away. And what I describe that is recognizing an idea that has its own momentum.

So that's how I think of it is when you hear an idea that will keep itself going on, the power of the idea, you need to do a lot of work. Like, so much more work than you think you will ever know in your life, you have to do. You don't even know what it is even as you're doing it, but there's an immense amount of it. But if the idea itself is only dependent on your effort and it doesn't drive itself in terms of energy and appeal, then it's going to die the second you go to bed.

No and it has to have its own momentum. So that's how I think of it. That's a great point. Great way to say that. Thank you. Yeah, that's just. That's, like, rocking my mind right now. I'm almost forgetting the question I wanted to ask. I know. Okay. I remember I wanted to ask because, Cam, you mentioned read a few books on operations or sales and marketing. Do you have any books in mind that you read that really helped you?

Oh, gosh. I read very little. I feel like I should go and read some, too. Some books that come to mind which are not necessarily relevant to exactly what I said. I know there are some that are written specifically for what I talk about. For customer service design. That's the keyword you're looking for. Look for top books in customer service design. I can't remember titles that come to mind, but some of the ones that stick out.

And I know a lot of people talk about Eric Rice's lean startup, but I think a lot of people read it and didn't get the point that the point was being scientific. That's the point. This is good advice for us. Again, Tara. I actually did read that book. Yeah, but the idea of. You mean, like the idea of rinse and repeat? Yeah, the idea of, like, don't listen to your customers. Experiment on them.

I hope none of our customers are listening, but if you've ever wondered why we do weird things, people come to D and D in a castle. They don't know what's going to make it the best thing. Like, if you ask them what they want, they'd say, well, if you ask people, sorry, I'm going to be all over the map here. You ask people if what they want in a house, they will tell you it's got to have a roof and a foundation and, like, a front door and, you know, like plumbing.

Right, because you asked them. No, no. Like, what do you want in a good house? They're like, I don't know, I'd hire an architect. Right. People aren't necessarily like, they know what their expectations are and they know how well you've met them. That's the thing that they are responsible for knowing. What are your expectations and how well did you meet them? And that's how quality is defined. McDonald's has excellent quality because your expectations are here. And they nail it. Right?

They nail those expectations. Like, and if they're ever off a little, you're like, oh, that. That Big Mac wasn't exactly the same as every other Big Mac. I've had, you know, like the, the quality and expectation. That's the level of types of feedback and things you can count on your customers to give you and the type of consistency. But when it comes to architecting the dream around them, you have to try things. You have to say, oh, I wonder if people will join if they do this.

I wonder if they find out through a YouTube video. I wonder if they, you know, find out. Is it, we didn't, weren't, it wasn't clear. Are they coming because they want to play with these DM's? Are they coming because, you know, the dream of playing in a castle? Are they coming because they want an interesting alternative to going on a cruise? Turns out they were all, yes, yes, yes and yes, they were all valid and they were all different customers that came for different reasons.

And we wouldn't have learned that if we hadn't tried, you know, different things in order to learn from them. That's not exactly the best answer to your question about books to read for customer service design, but it is something that I think stands out. That was awesome anyway, and we can find more books on that. No, I love that.

Because what makes it, what I think holds a lot of people back is the idea that they have to know exactly how it's all going to go before they step out into the entrepreneurial world or rollercoaster, whatever you want to call it. And one of my favorite books I'll just mention is failing forward. It's the idea of failure is part of success. And you mentioned, okay, we tried a lot and try a lot of things, you're going to have to have some failures to learn from them.

But by going through those failures, you really figure out what works. And that's the process of becoming successful in business. A lot of times is like narrowing that definition of success to like, okay, these are the things that really actually work and what people want. And when we can match those things together, all of a sudden we have a viable business. If you were going to go back and give yourself advice starting this over, what would be a first piece of advice you give yourself?

Say, no. Idea, you'll never play. Dan, that's funny, but it brings up a topic that I want to interject because I have an answer for you on that question. Actually, I'll start with this. People say the same things all the time when you ask them advice about startups, whether it's investors or successful entrepreneurs. And the hard, the funny thing is you don't believe them. They say things like, oh, what's the best, you know? How did you know your idea was good? Well, the timing was right. Well,

what else about it? You're like, well, it was good timing. And you're like, I was lucky. I was lucky. And you're like, no, I don't believe this person. They knew something. They knew that this idea was, like, the right thing, and they architected them. It's like, no, the timing was right. Timing is everything. It's like, I remember an investor can't remember who because I'm terrible with names. But they were important. You know, they asked them, like, what are

the top three things? And they said, timing, timing and timing. And they said, well, what about the team? They said, well, I can find a new team if the timing's right. And it's like, I didn't believe this. I still. But you look at D and D and a cast. If we had done it any other year, if we had started any earlier or, like, waited, like, the time, it was a powder keg, what was happening in D and D? And we were lucky because we knew it was big. We didn't know how big it had become.

We didn't know how resurgent D and D. We had no idea what critical role was. We didn't like, we had our head in the sand. Like, I hadn't talked about D and D in decades, since I played in high school. And it just turned out there was many more people in that same situation looking at D and D again through a new lens. So the idea of, like, really listen to the basic advice that you think people are making up, it's really real. And what does that mean for your idea?

If you're thinking like, you know, I have an idea. I really like x, therefore I want to do a startup around it. Think, is it the right time for that startup? Maybe it's a great time to get into cardboard boxes, or maybe there's something else that, like, the timing is better, but you don't love it as much. Maybe that's better. I don't know. That's sort of where that level of advice runs up.

But one of the, another thing that people mention all the time about startups is mental health, and how mental health and entrepreneurship is a different type of stress. It's a whole new world of pain. It's becoming a more talked about thing, which I really appreciate. I see more articles on medium and more entrepreneurs are talking about it. There's been suicides from successful startup founders that came out of the blue.

And when you get to a point in running a startup and you've got your big boy pants on and you're really actually running at scale. You suddenly look down and it's like, oh, my God, what are we doing? These are large numbers. This is a lot of people like, what is happening. And it's nothing like being an employee. And when that vertigo and the stress that you end up on yourself is so intense that you need to stay ahead of it. And I think that just as a general topic,

we're laughing. Tara's saying, oh, if you asked me again, but because the stress is severe and it does, people say, like, oh, how do you do this with a family and a career and stuff? It's like, well, actually, those things suffer, right? So choose wisely. Like, it's actually that stressful. And you'll hear this many times and people think, oh, they're lying. They're actually happy, and they're doing. There's no downside.

And everything's wonderful. It's like, no, this is a very stressful situation. And you need to get those support networks. You need to talk about the challenges, and you need to call me. And he'd be like, Tara, I don't want to hear anything better. We just need to talk about feelings. I just talk about feelings right now because I'm having a lot of feelings. Can we just talk about feelings? So we do that. We do that and then we just yell. And then he says, tara, you can't yell.

I'm too fragile. Stop yelling. I'm sensitive. It's true. You're going to break if you yell anymore. Having that camaraderie is super important. I mean, Chris and I have had our own ventures before we really met and started this and the fact. And so we both know what it's like to start a venture on your own and just realize, like, oh, my God. Kind of like you said, tara, like, it didn't have momentum, whatever it was, when we were sleeping, it was off.

And so what I just heard right there was the two of you work together and you lean on each other, and the fact that your brother and sister, I mean, I have a sister, and if she and I did something, it would be so freaking awesome. Like, I don't. It probably wouldn't be exactly like d and d in a castle, but it would be really freaking cool. So it just makes me so giddy to think about having that, that kind.

Of support we say to each other, like, first of all, there's the fact that our relationship serves the business because we know each other so well. And we also know our relationship is not the business. Like, our relationship comes, exists, pre existed, and will exist after and is its own relationship. But also, you know, we were at the castle this year. We're talking about, you know, can the castle. We've always. We've been at every castle event that we just call it the castle.

We've been at every castle event, and we both have been there, like, you know, grind. Like, working the grind every day, shoulder to the wheel. You know, we were like, are we reaching a point where we don't have to be at every castle? Or, like, maybe we. Because we have jobs and families, you know, and it's becoming, used to be once a year, and now it's becoming more so what is that commitment we're talking. That's the point we're at. And, you know, I said, like, I don't want to be at

the castle if you're not there. You know, like, that doesn't make any sense to me. I'm only here to, like, hang out and do the craziest thing anyone could think of. Like, I'm not going to do it on my own. And I did, like, with my ball, with the pride and prejudice ball, too. Like, I. I started it on my own, and then I was like, I'm done. I don't want to do this on my own anymore. And a friend came forward and said, you can't quit. I just ordered a new frock coat. And so

we ended up being business. I'm like, well, then you do it. And he was like, okay, I will. So now we. Now he kind of runs the ball, so I do the castle. Now. I wanted to pick up on a point, if I. If I can, on something Kat said, which is about, you know, the customer experience and a piece of advice, which I don't know if I should say out loud, but I'm going to. Why not? Why would. It's only open to the universe on. The public domain, which is my learning.

And this is hard earned learning. Like, hard earned is don't listen to anyone. And when I say that, I mean, Cam will tell you in our company how much. I repeat this thought, if you don't know what is best, you shouldn't be doing it. And that doesn't mean don't seek advice from people smarter than you definitely do that. But, for example, when you run events in particular, which is our business, and that's what I know about. I know about events. People don't necessarily know why it's so great.

You have done a lot of thinking through. You have done a lot of scientific observation, and you have collected that wisdom and you are applying it. And they don't necessarily know. Like they say, our sister is an architect, which is why it's interesting. He said about the architect, people don't know what they want in a house necessarily until you build it. And they're like, this is a great house. It's got great vibes. They don't know that it's because you specifically designed the wall with.

Vibes are hard won. They are hard won, and you'll know what the people are going to say to you. You know, the feedback that's actually true is stuff you already know. So feedback from whatever sources has to be very pointed or not at all. And if you can't assess yourself and evaluate and from your own observation and reflection and action, how you can improve or what the key points are, then no one else is going to be able to do that for you. And I have also learned to, the more you give people,

the less satisfied that they are. This is also a very hard earned piece of learning, the more that I would provide. So when I started the ball, people would say, I don't have anything to wear. And I would say, because I'm me, I have, like, a stash of costumes from former festivals. And I'd be like, I have this ball gown. It looks like it would fit.

You come and borrow it from me, or I can't get to the, you know, I'm trying to solve everyone's problems instead of, this is my product, here is the information, here's the event. This is the time. Here are some ways you can make your own costume. These are the limits of our costuming requirement. You know, these are the answers to your questions. But the more I bend over backwards to try to accommodate and serve people, the more entitled they would feel about it.

It sounds really backwards, but it really is true in events. And so we had to, we took that learning, and we still have customer service, and we still provide people with the information. We're not going to twist our event or end our lives, because half the time you do that for someone, they don't even come, you know, so those aren't the committed people. They're not the people who actually want it. Half the time. People, you think they say. People say they have a barrier. That's another thing.

People say they have a barrier to coming. They have a barrier to purchasing that product, whatever it is.

And the truth is, then you turn around and it turns out that they did something that totally goes against that statement, because the truth is they just weren't motivated for what you're doing, and they want to make your thing into something else or think that they know that if you did that, it would somehow meet their need, but it actually didn't because they're, you know, oh, why don't you have it in July? Because I could come. So then you plan it in July, and then they don't come because they

just weren't going to come anyway. You know, they could come in September if they really wanted to do, you know, let me. Let me. Let me add a layer because it sounds like part of what Tara is saying is don't listen to customers, which is part of the counterintuitive point, but it's how you listen to customers. It's how. It's make sure that you have a useful lens to put all the feedback through. Right. Put the. Being able to get customer feedback on their expectations, getting customer feedback

for the sake of consistency. You know, if someone's saying, oh, you should do x. Be like, okay, how many people said that? One person, okay, why did that one person say that? Oh, could it? You know, and it's like, oh, everyone else is saying, why. Being able to read between the lines and be really deep and thoughtful about the feedback that you're getting and also be able to know what the. Again, it comes down to experimentation, right? Like, and people. And being able to see the big picture.

So most feedback is just painfully people telling you that you haven't achieved what you're trying to achieve, right? If someone's giving you feedback, like, oh, you know, maybe you should try x. You're like, I know I should try x. I tried x for, like, three months, and we're trying to do x. We haven't done x. It's not there yet, right? Like, we're still working on that plan. Right. So it's. But it's confirmation that you're on the right path. Those

are the problems you need to solve. You know, we ask people in our feedback, what's the. You know, how. How strongly do you agree with the statement that this is the greatest game of dungeons and dragons you've ever played in your life? And it's always strongly agree. So we're like, okay, we're doing it. The thing that matters. We did it, right. Everything else is about protecting that, right?

And if you know something else didn't go their way, it's like, how likely is this to threaten their game? How much of this is how consistent is that point of feedback? And did you sacrifice the thing that they said intentionally for the sake of something else? Like, maybe there's something else that they weren't happy with because we sacrificed it for the sake of the game, for the flexibility or. I don't know. We're grasping at straws here.

But make sure you're robust and thoughtful with how you interpret. And don't just be reactive to what you're being told by guests, by your partners. Ingest it, analyze it, and look at it as a whole, not piecemeal, one at a time. And try and be responsive. You'll just spread yourself too thin because. You can't do everything. Yeah. It also seems like you have sort of an iceberg of knowledge. Right.

And the people who are going to your event are only seeing the very tip of that iceberg, and they may not know that there's 70 other million tons of iceberg that you have underneath there of context for why you do that thing. And that's. I mean, I get that with events and with music, it was what came up for me, because when you said, you got to make decisions that are reliant on you, I think about musicians and how, you know, when they're making music.

I don't want to know necessarily what the producer was choosing or what this other person was choosing. I want to know what, like, Snoop Dogg was choosing in that song to make it great, because he's the one who's the musician. Right. Like, and he trusts himself. And that's the other thing I heard in that was that if you're gonna go down the entrepreneurial roller coaster, you gotta trust yourself before you jump, before you go, and trust that you have those instincts.

People always say that about me and Cam, you know, like, you guys don't. Like, you guys are so confident and, like, it's a problem. You know, we don't see both of us. It's kind of like one of us should be cautious. Neither of us is cautious. We don't see the problems before they're there. We just see opportunities. That's. That's how. Yeah. And the oversimplification is, like, how hard can this be? We rent a castle. We sell the tickets. People show up,

they play D and D. Come on. It's four steps. Not what is not complicated at all. No. Right. And if you're looking for the complications. Right. And that knowledge that it is technically that simple, it's just each one of those things. That's a million things that has to happen. We appreciate there's going to be a million things, but that doesn't mean, you know, it's not possible. And obviously, that leads to glazing over some

details sometimes and getting caught. Having a good project manager to help you, you know, compensate for that is really important. But I would say, you know, going to your question about what would you tell yourself when you started? I would tell myself that other than Covid is coming. Yeah, that would have been nice to know for everybody. We were just at a part wherever I going to hit the gas and, like, accelerate and, like, okay, we proved the model. We know how to repeat it.

The fact that it's six. It's a six person table over three days, 8 hours a day, rotating four hour blocks. We figured out the. You meet in a tavern beforehand. We get the socialization. We have session zero. The ball has a particular format. We have the venue. We tried, like, multiple castles in multiple countries to nail it down. We got it. We've got this thing. We had the talent lined up. We were ready to scale. And then Covid, and it was like. And what was amazing is just, like,

how supportive the players were. We have, like, a 75% to 85% return rate. Like, everyone comes back. We have a 95% NP's. We have, like, it's just through, like, people are. When they're in, they're in, right? Of course, not everyone comes back, and they're like, that was my once in a lifetime experience. But more often, I'm told. I remember the. The one couple came and sat me down at the end of the 2019 event, and they said, you know, we've got. I've got a problem to speak to you about.

And I'm like, oh, gosh, what happened? You know, like, another. You know, an event thing fell apart. And he said, you know, me and my wife were on fixed income. We're retired. And we planned this once in a lifetime experience, and now we have to come back, and we can't afford to come back, but we're. And so then I find out that they're. They're coming back, like, four times. Like, I don't know what. What's going on, but, like, it was a joke. It was, you know, tongue in cheek.

But this recognition of, like, oh, this can actually just be how we holiday, and this is just how we spend our time, this recognition. But if I go back to that point at the beginning about, like, so, you know, knowing that these people will get you through the pandemic, that's how good this idea is people are going to be so in, they're going to get tattoos. They're going to, they're going to be hundred percent in it. And they're going to support you through.

The time, not buy a house so they can come. Yeah, they're going to support you through the hard times to get to make the dream happen. And the other thing I would tell you myself is to think bigger, which sounds crazy, but even though I thought we were going big, we're like, oh, we're renting a castle in France. No, we, like, we're now reacting to needing to think bigger. Like, we should have had our marketing at the scale. It needs to be three years ago.

We should had certain problems that, facing the scale problems, there's no reason we couldn't have been ahead of that curve. Right. And seen it coming

and been able to do that. I mean, I say that with hindsight because, of course, you know, everything is about time constraints and trying to do things, but, you know, understanding that minimum efficient scale and what it really looked like at scale and how much time it took and how much, what the marketing looked like and really say, oh, this is, this is really big. Like we should start doing big stuff. Right. And get to that point earlier. So you guys have had the success, I mean,

you guys have talked about that. There's been, through trial and error, there's been some great success. So my question that you may or may not want to answer is, what's the plan going forward? Is there going to be a second castle coming up or, or what's eight this year? Yeah. Wait, eight castles? I thought it was only the one. Castle and you were just eight events, one venue. But there's eight rounds, right? Yes, eight rounds, but the business model. So this,

this thing doesn't scale out. It like, if there was a time, we're like, oh, we can make this bigger, and it'd be like a festival. No, it's the same model. It's a cookie cutter and it's repeated. It's the six people at a table and it's the 13 tables or whatever happening at a time on a four day format repeated. So if you want to do more, you just do them side. You do more side by side. There's not more people at one event. You don't double up in parallel. You do it in series.

So we could just book more and add more events as demand grows. Right now where people are coming out of the pandemic and like we're, you know, you're seeing it pick up and getting the. But we, it's really hard to make marketing content when you don't, when you're not at the castle. So we had to wait for the march events to make the marketing materials, and we're going through the marketing cycle right now. You can see the interest picking back up and the velocity coming.

And as we, you know, as we go, like, we can just book more castles as we need to. And if, like, yeah, it's a pretty scalable that way. It seems to me that you're going to be able to do this as many times as you can throughout the year, but with an 80% to 90% return, like, want a return rate or loving the experience. What you mentioned sounds to me like if people don't buy tickets soon or this year, kind of get in, but you guys might be full a year from now, really quickly.

We're not going to add more this year. I think this, this year, like, we've bet off, you know, we don't want to scale too fast. We don't add so many that we can't deliver the experience that we want to deliver. And we're, I think, about half, well, we're about half sold out this year. And we're going to start selling 2023 soon. So, yeah, we pre pandemic, we would sell out, like, the moment tickets went on the site. Like, we,

we would sell out within weeks. Like, as soon as people found out it was, it was gone. Because it's a relatively small event. Right. Even though there's multiple that we run, it's, you know, not thousands. It's not like we can sell as many as people want to come. It's, there's a fixed number of seats, and that's it. So it sells out. And we're starting to see the appetite return post pandemic. So 2022 is going to be the struggle and then, you know, to get things back to the way things were.

And then 2023, because there's always, there's a kind of pattern that happens that we saw in 2018 and 2019, which is at the end of the event, there's this massive separation anxiety that happens. Kind of like if you ever went to summer camp as a kid, the exact same feeling as the end of summer camp. So that totally makes sense.

And so people immediately, we would capitalize on that, that separation anxiety and have those tickets for the next event ready and the majority of people would snap them up and then we would, we would still have tickets to sell, but, you know, we don't. We kind of, with the break from the pandemic, we had to postpone, like, three times was incredibly painful. Every single time that we had to do that, it was like a punch in the stomach, you know?

And so we've, we've been through that, and so we, although, and it's remarkable, many people have stuck with us. How few people have actually sought a refund and waited two years to come back to the castle because they're just like, no. Holding on to those tickets for Mark Mir. I'm not going anywhere. So we do have that, but that impetus of the event finishing, and already, before tickets even go on sale, they're half sold out, you know, so we're building up to that at this point.

And as Cam said, 2022 will be the event that, the year that sort of propels us into the future. Yeah. And you can see at my dream, the thinking big enough is vertical integration. I mean, this is a, for scalable through our current leasing model. Like, we work with, we have great relationship with the, with the Castle Hotel, but someday I'm going to buy a castle, and it's going to be, you know, like, of the whole model change. That's what I mean by minimum efficient scale. Right? Like,

if you own Haskell, yeah. You can, you have multiple revenue streams. You can do various types of events. You have, you know, you can gear it towards. So my, I don't know what I should say because someone's gonna snap up this idea and run away, someone with more money. They're really not. They're really not. But, you know, there's a world like we've only just begun, really, in the empire building.

Am I wrong to think that maybe, Cameron, you've always just wanted to own a castle and this is the way that you're going to do it. Yes. And I'm not alone. I'm not alone. And I promise to share the castle, and it will be for d and D, and it will be glorious. And, you know, just like, getting to that level of motto would be amazing. I did want to say we were talking about at the beginning about vision and about recognizing an idea.

One of the components of that for me is when I feel a passionate excitement about something or something, you know, something triggers something in me. For, about an idea, I think to myself, I can't be the only one. And if I'm thinking, oh, maybe I could do this thing, maybe someone would like that. My people are out there, and I just have to find them. There's, I'm not so unique that I'm the only one who wants to dance like Jane Austen. You know, I'm not.

I can't be the only one wants to kelly camp. He's not the only one to play d and D in a castle. He was that iconic stranger things character. You know, he was in that show in circa 1991, you know, but recognizing that there are other people out there that have that same passion, however weird it might seem to other people, and. That sounds like people will say, like you should, you know, people.

You rely on market and user research a lot to understand, but as a clarity of signal, if you have a bag of marbles and you don't know what's in the bag and someone pulls out a single marble and it's red, what is the likelihood that red is not representative of what's in the bag? Like, when people are talking about statistical sampling and understanding markets and doing this analysis, they're talking about margins of error, and they're talking about how, you know,

what their error margins are. In particular, the statistics are over calibrated. When you're talking about, you know, nailing an idea, you're talking about much. How close can I match this red? Right? Because there's. There's a. You know, there's some resonance in this that you pull out two, and two of them are red. What are the chances? Like, slim to none that that red is not a highly representative color in that bag of marbles because you pulled out two. And that's how an end count

of two can actually be a clear signal. If what you're looking for is this representative, is this reasonably represented? Not how represented is it? Not how big is the market? Not how. But if you're looking at validating an idea and going back to being scientific, it's like, is the marble red? Yes. I found out there is someone out there willing to spend even one person that made a sale. People really overestimate making a single sale. Like, hey, you found out how to take someone's money.

That is nothing easy. People do not give away their money for nothing. Right. Like, getting that and focusing on that success and say, what made. Like, on the clarity of the signal, as opposed to just trying to find out what the most people are interested in. So how did you, in your guys case, figure out how many marbles in the bag were red? We put an ad on Facebook. We put an ad on Facebook, and it said d and d in a castle. And then the tickets sold out. That's it.

Wow. On Facebook specifically, just Facebook? Just Facebook. Pretty much just Facebook. One Facebook ad. Facebook advertising is actually extremely good at targeting it because it's like, but everyone's not on Facebook. I don't need everyone. I needed at that time, 36 people. And that demographic, too. That audience is pretty perfect. They've got the spending power. Yeah. So we found 36 people and

they came and sold out the event. So it was, we had quick affirmation, confirmation that, you know, we were on the right track from the, you know, when we put the word out there and, you know, tickets started selling and it was like, there you go, Bob's your uncle. It's not always that, that clear, obviously. And a lot of our challenges weren't in validating the idea, as it often is. Right. I think that if we had tried and we put

it up and tickets didn't sell, then what? That would have been a much more interesting story. But in our case, it just. That was, hey, we were lucky. We were lucky that, you know, the timing was good. Timing. The timing was good. The hypothesis was proven pretty quickly from the fact that, like, people wanted that now. It was, you know, the execution obviously was a. Was a different story and learning. But how do there's. Oh, my God, we did so many things wrong.

I don't even want to recount them because you won't trust us anymore. But, like, you know, many lessons along the way, but as long as the game was good and, and people had that experience where they felt like they played the game of their life and made friends and came away with that once in a lifetime feeling everything we could learn. And that's what bought us the time. We don't need to dive into those things that went wrong.

But I do want to ask, did those things that went wrong ruin the experience or did things carry on? Oh, yeah, the show went on. The show went on. We lost our castle four days before the event and we shoved ourselves into a castle at peak season during the cricket World cup across the street. So that was really fun. And we literally bust people to a Holiday Inn half an hour away and we just made it work. So when we're talking. Things went wrong. Yeah, I was, I was getting. I bet.

And that's what I was talking about, the tightrope. And you look down those moments, the looking down moments where I got a phone call at 04:00 in the morning and I was like, who is calling me at 04:00 in the morning? And it was a lawyer in England saying, you know, I'm a solicitor, or whatever they are, barristers or something, you know, calling from London. I don't know if you know this, but the castle I saw you have the event on the thing has been seized by the authorities.

It's not available. And we're like, I'm sorry, what? So the company behind the castle went bankrupt, and the. The castle got taken as collateral and locked up. It was chained up. So we had a hard pivot, and boy, learned a lot in, like, reactive operations. And, you know, those people at that castle, that was the Nerderkey castle and the Bard castle. We called them the Bard Castle because they had the library bards, which was Xander Jenner and Bonnie Gordon and Amy Vorpal and Jason Carl, the. Oh,

Jason Carl. Like, they, at that time, that was another lesson for us, is, like, they are there to make it happen. Like, we had found the talent was just as invested in making this a reality, and they made sure everyone had the time of their life. So the. The Bard castle, they would write songs to sing on the bus for their trip. And, you know, people were just so amazing about it. I mean, who predicts that, right? Like, I'm sorry, this castle has been seen by the authorities.

And so there was a lot of campaigns that adapted to being about, like, defending the castle from the seizure. I was going to ask. They reacted with, like, very strong, quick messaging to the guests, and the guests were very receptive. But I just want to share, I was sitting because I just had this memory. So that had happened, and we'd been through our first recovery castle, as it were, with the guys of Nerderkey, and that's Dave and Ted, and at that time,

Doug as well. Was there a. They're Australia. Dave and Ted are coming back this year. We'd been through that, and in that case, they were able to accommodate us all at the castle. And it was fantastic and it was amazing. And we just couldn't believe that we had pulled it off. And then we were coming to the second round at that same castle, and this was Lumley Castle that took us in, the same castle that we're at now. And we had a relationship with them because we were planning to have

them in 2020 as our castle. So they said, well, we can take you for the first round. We've got ever. We've got the space. The second round, they said, we have the event spaces, but we don't have enough guest rooms. So this is where the bussing to the Holiday Inn in Newcastle came in. And the talent arrived the night before. And we sat them down for breakfast. And I remember telling them, so this is the story. And we are just going to hide behind you because you are the people they care about.

We are nobody to them, and you're just going to save our asses, basically. And what was so the sweetest moment in this? And they were all just like, yep, we got this. They were, like, so stoic. And actually, my favorite moment was Jason Carl, if you know Jason Carl from LA by night, he's also worked on magic gathering, and he's a game designer and DM of some renown. And he was at that castle, and I had just met him the night before,

and just the loveliest person. And he said, he turned and said, so I'm sorry to be the marketing guy here. He's a marketer. That's his background. Sorry to be the marketing guy, but what's our messaging on this? And I was just so. It was such a lovely moment, and I was like, I feel so happy that someone just said, messaging like, that makes me feel so good. And I said, our messaging is gratitude. Our messaging is. We can't believe how lucky we are that we're in this castle.

We can't believe how lucky we are that we're still able to proceed. We can't believe how lucky we are to be with these people who are going to give us this experience. And that message has been a real learning in events, in business, in life. And we pounded that message that became our touchstone. And that castle was remarkable, and it was so beautiful, and it carried everyone through. And they were able to live that

because we set the tone for that. And that was one that Amy Vorpal came to, and she had. They novelized their campaign that we have a copy. They sent us a copy they print on demand in ithood into an actual novel that they wrote. That's like. That's like next level fan stuff, right? Yeah. It's like one level, one giant copyright infringement. Like, it's, you know, but it's amazing. Like, they did it for themselves. They made a novel out of their three day campaign.

There's tons of stories like that from what people could do at this castle. And they. They wrote songs, like, every night on they would, or every morning, I'm not sure which. They would share the songs on the bus back from there, you know, as they came back to the castle. And of course, you know, we worked things out financially with people and stuff like that. But it was. It was. The spirit was indomitable.

Is there a place where those kind of things are collected, like those novels or those songs? Is there a place where people can go and find them? What a great idea. No, they can't write a novel. No, the novel. They definitely can't. Sure, I understand that one. No. The songs, we try to share stuff, you know, it's really hard when you're in the middle of that to try to share it.

That's a learning that we're still learning how to do is to take that and be able to send it out into the world and let people know, like, what is going on here, to sort of open the window, because the experience of the guests is so valuable and so important, and there are people who don't get that. It's not a streaming event. There are still people who will write to us and be like, how can I just come as a. You know, as a spectator? There's no spectating. You're in a closed room.

There are six of you in your dm, and that is it. No one is watching. This is not for anybody else. This is for your experience only. And that's why it's so expensive, because there are only six of you paying for all of this. You know that we protect that very carefully. So it's a balance to do that promotional side while also protecting the guest experience, too. I love that story of your first event and how crazy that is to have gone through. That actually wasn't our first event. That was.

That was our 2019 event. The first event of four in 2019. Yeah. Which was supposed to be how we financially recovered from 2018. And then 2020. Was how we were supposed to be financially, financially recovering. Don't do it. Buy insurance. That's what I would say to myself. Buy more insurance. Way more insurance. And have an appetite for big numbers. Well, and if you go through that. Right. I'm just curious, like, what did you do the day after you got it done? You know what I was sitting on?

I'm gonna tell you the truth, because what else am I gonna say? And you can cut this if Cam incentives. But I just defer to cams. I'm like, I don't know anything. I just talk too much and yell. So I'm getting a t shirt that says I yell because I care, and I feel like entrepreneurs. Know what I mean? So I left the castle, and I left cam the last day because I had been there at the beginning. I was there by myself dealing with that castle being lost. So I was there for the first half, and he.

We overlapped in the middle, and he was there for the last round. Two events were happening at the same time, our second and third rounds were overlapping, so it was kind of. It was totally insane. Never do that. That would also be my advice to myself. Never do that. Yeah, that's very specific to our particular platform. So I went off and met my husband's family's from the UK. So I went off on a family holiday at the beach in Northumberland, which is a beautiful place to visit,

and I recommend it to anybody. And we're sitting on this white sand beach, you know, and it's like a rugged kind of. You can't tell this story, Terry. I can't tell the story. Sorry. Okay, you can. Yes, you can. Oh, it's all right. We can cut it if it don't. Work and tell you to cut it. You're right. I can't tell this story. Please cut this. But I'm going to tell you anyway. Well, that's what I just said about mental health. I think it's going to literally, this is an example.

I'm sitting there on the beach with my kids and my family, like my extended family, and it's this beautiful scene of a white beach, and there's, like, horses coming down the sand. It's a horse friendly beach, you know, and it's rugged, beautiful countryside.

And this thought comes into my head, which I did not take a heed up to, but it still came through my head as I saw those horses coming, that I thought, maybe if I lie down in front of the horses, they will trample my head, and then I'll have brain damage and I won't have to do anything anymore. Oh, my God. That's a way to start a vacation, right? Anyway, that was how. That was what I did. I did not put my head in front of horses hooves. I restrained myself from doing that.

And then we started talking a lot about mental health as part of the project. I was gonna say, that's excellent. I think there's a lot of entrepreneurs that do need to hear stuff like that, because, yeah, you know, we get those moments at times like, what the hell am I doing? I don't want to do this again. This was so difficult and unpleasant. And then it takes hindsight later. Like, much later, sometimes a lot of dopamine, however you get it.

And once you've been on for, like, so long, and that moment of reflection afterwards is sometimes. Yeah, very scary, because you have now stretched your soul so far in ways you didn't think you were. And then it's. It's like, oh, my gosh. I don't know who I am anymore in some ways. Right. And I don't know. I've had a few moments in that in my life like that, too. And I can say, like, I'm glad that that wasn't the

choice that would have happened. Right. And we, and we actually do have the bravery to talk about that. This is hard. Running a business is not easy. And people who say, I think I'm thinking about starting a business so I can have more time. And I'm just, I laugh so hard when people tell me that because it's like they have no idea what it really means to be an entrepreneur, especially.

When it's like you were saying earlier, Cam, like, it's a, it's a business that started from a place of kind of emotion and passion. It's not a place of pure numbers and economy. It's. It's so much more invested in our hearts. Yeah. And in our wallets, but, yes, also in our hearts. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, it's the combination. I say that because it's the, it's something that you love and you're putting your money where your mouth is.

And I think that, you know, when we talk about if there's people there who haven't started a business or maybe they've started a small business or they're doing a hustle, really think, have you actually put your money where your mouth is? In the fact that, like, if you fail, are you going to cry? Are you going to barf if you fail? Because you put everything into it to a degree, to try and meet that minimum efficient scale, because it does happen.

The idea that you've got a business model that's so repeatable and streamlined that you can actually grow it from nothing, from very little, and balloon it up. But it's rare and usually requires some failures along the way or a big amount of investment to get it off the ground. At some point, you've got to take a leap. You've got to step onto the tightrope. One of the most important resources you have available to you, and this is for entrepreneurship but also in life, is

the size of the risks you can take. You can't. What is the biggest risk that you can afford to take? And of course, people maybe who have generational wealth or have huge savings or something, they can take bigger risks. And maybe it's still scary because it's still a lot of money, but they can afford large risks. If you're looking at something, you're saying, here's the minimum efficient scale. It needs to be this big for it actually to live without me. And that requires this amount of risk.

Can you afford the risk that makes the thing happen or like, what is the closest balance of those two and to really get into? And when you do that, when you actually are all in, whether it's your time, whether it's your money, whether it's both most likely or worse, someone else's money, that's also terrifying. You know, it combines all those things. It's really hard to separate. Right. It's really hard to separate financial failure or financial risk from your heart and from what you're doing.

And it all becomes, it's a very different type of anxiety that can arise out of that. And I'm really glad that we have communities that are more open to talking about these things. We have each other to talk through about it. Medication, supportive spouses, whatever it takes to take that on is a serious challenge. Yeah. The D and D community, too, is also very supportive of these things from what I have observed.

I feel like the two of you are more in this, though, so you probably know better than me. Yeah, but we got nothing to lose, right? Like, I mean, we're, we're all in on this. And it's like, if this is our only foot in the game with D and D, right? So this is where we're all in. But seeing the other professionals, like, seeing these professional DM's, like, I, you know, watching Ginny Dheendae work like around the clock at the. Everything was a. Was a creation moment. Everything was

a planning moment. Everything was, you know, she had a thousand percent into everything that, that they were doing. And it was about what was happening at the castle. It was what was happening. And all these things you can see here, she's putting everything into what she's doing. And you see, it was like, oh, there's a successful streamer that's doing really great. It's like, this is not an accident.

This is a systematic, very hard working, very thoughtful, hard working from, from, from people like that. And whether it's writing or whether it's someone doing streaming or whether it's just dungeon masters, I want to, you know, doing professional, that's not an easy thing to do, to stand out and actually make a, make a career out of. You got to be a thousand percent in. And at some point you can have to start signing some checks for however small they are.

Whatever you got, whatever you have, that's. But you've got to be able to put your money where your mouth is. I'm curious, like what are the standards you look for in a good dungeon master for your events? And I'm sure there are some that have probably sent your way that you would turn away. And what makes someone, someone you're like, yes, I want them there. Good question. It's a common. It's all aura. Aura. Largely aura plus other things. Insight, check.

So the. This is a. It's complicated in that we don't know everything and that's. This is one of the things to experiment with. What works? Bring people. Like sometimes we have people pitch us on idea, hey, bring me. I'm this kind of DM. And it's like, okay, we'll try anything once, right? Like we've had people come to try different angles and most of them have stuck, right?

Whether it's the streamer, whether it's the writer, whether it's the, you know, professional dungeon master aspect, whether it's TikTokers dice. Cream sandwich I know is a big tiktoker and you. Yeah, dice cream sandwich was a good. He came and he brought a influencers. Like, I'm just going to promote this table and show what social media can do. And it was awesome.

We've had people come in who are the quiet, creative types and they run a game that is like, oh, I wonder what's going on at that table. And then we ask the players, they're like, this is like, oh, there's a lot going on. And they're delivering this amazing game. And it's a balance of people who can have a draw and a name is one thing, obviously. But we also have people who we know

are going to deliver that game. And it's like, if there's someone who we know is going to deliver the game and it doesn't necessarily have, you know, again, we're stealing a lot from the music industry, right? Like we're booking tables for these mini concerts, so to speak. You know, you've got the headliners or people that everyone might know. And then we've got. We're also a and r, right? We're also looking at the DM's that we know are going to deliver that great game.

And people who come, they're going to be at the. And they're going to come away being like, oh my God, that was incredible. So whatever leads us to believe that these people have the ability to deliver on that experience and that shows hustle, you know, people who are able to show that they're going to do whatever it takes to make that event, to make their players happy. To. It could be creative chops, whether it's, you know, written specific

content that's done really well. You know, a lot of official writers for wizards and people who've done, like, very well on DM's guild, etcetera, showing that they know the game that well. People with successful streams that can show that they can entertain and people want to be at their table and they want to watch them do their thing and they want to be part of that and pay to have a little bit of the immersive experience with someone that they really resonate with.

They're all models that we've tried and there's a market for most of it. Right, there's. But I joke about aura because we always, that's sort of the key word that we throw and forth so we know what we're talking about. But specifically, Cam says, no, I want fun. People at the castle, are they going to be fun? Are they fun? Are they fun? Is this person fun? So we're often saying that and aura, like, we're both, this is another thing.

It's trusting your intuition. You know, we meet people, we meet them all face to face, and we have an honest discussion. Would you want to be at this person's table for 8 hours a day for three days? This person, someone you want to hang out with, is this someone you want to spend your vacation with? Because that's what we're doing. We're giving people a vacation.

It's got to be someone that they, and it might not be everyone's first choice, but are there six people who would want to spend their vacation with this person? So that is actually a factor in creating the spirit of the event that we want. And so we usually know pretty instantly if someone is not who we want to work with. It doesn't happen very often, though, but most people who are in this industry, they love the game and they're

excited to come to a castle. They're like, have the same reaction. I'm in Jason Azovato, who's another one of our, he does realmsmith tv. So he said, I will ride on the back of a camel across the desert. Just book me. I am coming to that castle. You can't keep me out. So, you know, we have people who say things like that, you know, so they're excited and they want to make it work, and they're, they're eager to do it. And sometimes I just think, why?

Why do these people want to come to our castle? I'm really glad that they do. But sometimes I don't even understand. But they come and they. They make this event for us. But you're touching on very close to the secret sauce of the strategy, which is that if we can sell you, we can book you. Right. There's no upper limit to the number of castles we can run other than our own ability to scale, and we're not there yet. But in essence, at minimum, efficient scale.

This business model is about helping dungeon masters monetize their following. It's about helping, you know, undiscovered gems be found, you know, by the mainstream. It's about giving people a unique vacation experience through a particular style or a game that they've never played. Like, that's what we're selling. That's the actual product. Right. It's the. If we can sell six people, we can add a table. It only takes six people. Can we sell six tickets of this person?

And they're expensive tickets, so, yeah, not always possible. Yeah. And that is to say, if you're. If you're listening to this podcast and we've talked to you and. And we didn't hire you as a DM, it may be because there's literally no room at our current castles. But, like, in general, as a theory, you know, the upper. The scalability is dependent on the talent. The talent is so critical to what we're doing that the talent and our reputation as a brand.

There's people who come to D and Dana Castle and they're like, I don't know, put me at a table. But we have to deliver that game, and that talent has to be good enough to make that decision. An undead, disputably good one, where they come away being like, my expectations were here, and you delivered here. Right. Like, high expectations and even higher outcome from the game and the experience and what they really get. And, you know, it's always sneaky because it's the secret. It's

the game that does all the work. Right? Like, if you give people the game and you give them the opportunity to play in those circumstances, the game delivers the next level. That magic sauce. I've used magic sauce a lot time. I don't know. You know, it's the. We're relying on this, on the secret weapon, which is the game itself, so. Which is, I guess, what the music industry does. Right. They're secret weapons that people love. There are many musicians who have never been heard of.

There are many DM's who are fantastic DM's. And it will give an amazing game of D and D. But if we can't sell those six tickets. Our model falls apart. So there aren't people out there who are amazing DM's, who we're not going to have as DM's at our castle at this point. Has to. It has to make sense for a model. And we can take risks, right? Like, we can have some DM's that people haven't heard of. And, you know, like, there's. There's a side of that that's definitely part of it.

But what's so important is that, and it's like, in many successful businesses, you have to over deliver, not just deliver. And I love the way you put that where it's like, their expectations are here, but we're giving them like, a level ten experience so that it's going well beyond that. And that's just so important. I wanted to see how are we feeling, Frank? Should we transition over to random roles? I think we should transition.

So what we do is we like to wrap things up here with two sections that are a bit more fun in lightheartedness, everything's, rather than getting your. Head stepped on by a horse, but. Rather than talking about, like, the tough business side of things, like, we like to turn this into a bit more of silliness, so. And nerdiness. This is all a nerd stuff, right? Actually, one way we kind of like to kick this off is, how would you define a nerd? Oh, I don't know.

Can I get a really long, convoluted answer? I think podcasts are for law. That's what they're made for, because I don't know. I think that nerd used to have social implications, and it was someone who was intelligent and ousted because of their intelligence. Maybe that's historically what it was. It has evolved to be so many more things.

The reason why it's changed, I think, is what's interesting, the reason why that definition has changed, because we underestimate the sort of quiet revolution of nerds in the eighties and nineties. You know, stranger things is very much about this, where you have the. The revolution of women was very loud. It was very out there, and it was about showing what women were capable and the movement of liberal feminism for the men.

It was actually also against the same common enemy, which was patriarchal chauvinism. If you watch that show and you treat the upside down as patriarchal chauvinism, as being the thing that threatens their youth, as they have gender roles thrust upon them, it's actually what the show is about. It's even called Hawkins, as in a Sadie Hawkins dance with gender role reversal. Right? So you can go down that rabbit hole. I'll give you that gift. But in general, like, what happened to those geeks?

We think it's like, oh, isn't that cute? We've watched these people. We didn't hear much about them, but, you know, they have this revolution. And the superheroes, like the accountant, the science teacher are the superheroes because they have resisted the expectations of them at that time. And they've had this cultural revolution, a very introverted and quiet revolution. Well, what happened? They went on to start the largest companies in the world and take over the entertainment industry.

Marvel knocks out billion dollar blockbusters on the Daily Apple, Microsoft, Google. The faces that, like, pop behind your mind. Oh, those were the D and D kids. Maybe they didn't actually, actually played ind. A lot of them did, but they were those kids, like the nerd. That's why people don't make fun of nerds anymore. And unfortunately, it's because they all went and made a lot of money and, you know, the nerds. And it turns out being intelligent is actually

quite lucrative in certain scenarios. Right? So that revolution of nerdery that was born out of the eighties transformed from being that, you know, now is very much about the empowered underdog that has, you know, earned acceptance through domination in some cases of, you know, at a vast scale. We sort of think of nerd as still somehow being signlined. I always find it weird when people talk about video game culture as being, like, a niche or sideline. Did you know a damn soul that

didn't play video games in high school? No. Everyone played Mario. Every damn person in the damn school played Mario Kart and Mario. And everyone's, like, wearing, like, kitsch Mario t shirts as though, like, somehow they're some kind of, like, cultural rebel. No, you weren't the rebel. I played D and Da. We got our ass kicked. Like, that was. That was a cultural rebellion, right? Like, well, it's true. Video games became mainstream by the, like, 1992. Like, it was over, you know?

Well, by that logic, larpers will be the next super rich intelligent. Yeah, those guys are nerds, man. Those guys nerd proper. There's not many people that d deers sometimes look down on or make fun of, but larping is one of them, right? I don't know why that is. We had a larper on our podcast. We get along fine with them. But if you've ever done LARP, it's just that it's so different. And I think that it's the frustration of being lumped in with

something that you're not right. It's like, you know, saying, like, we're not Larpers. We're not those people. It's nothing wrong with Larpers, but it's a different thing. It's like. It's almost like out of respect for larpers. No, they have a thing. It's over there. It's like being canadian and being called american. Like wrong with Americans. But I am not one of them. Exactly. But I would say my definition of nerd, someone who carries into adulthood the passions they had in their youth.

Because I like about all those things. The dressing up, the comic books, the playing D and D, the making dolls out of nothing. Those are all our childhood. Youthful, resisting the upside down. Resisting the upside down. Yeah, that's good. That's very good. We've heard a lot of great definitions for what a nerd is. So thank you for playing that game. Let's get into random rolls. Okay. So a little bit of what's about to happen. So there's two sections. We've

got random rolls and we've got rapid fire. So random rolls is what we're going to do first. So you're going to. If you have access to a D 100, you'll be able to roll that. You can just ask Google to roll a D 100. Perfect. That is the other thing you can do, which is also very good. And so with this, because there's two of you. Frank, should we do to each? To each? Yeah. To do that. Tara, would you mind? Are you ready? Go ahead. Oh, I got 69. My kids will be so entertained.

Nice. All right, can you try to describe D and D in one sentence? This is perfect question. You know that I'm a writer and my sentences can be extremely long. Commas are liberally used. That's fine. D and D is a collective storytelling experience guided by someone who knows more than you do. Well done. That was awesome. I like that. Oh, knows more than you do. I was like, what is that supposed to. Oh, about the world that's happening. And what's nice is it doesn't.

It doesn't contain it to a genre or, like, it doesn't have to be fantasy. It could be so many things. So I like that. That's great. Thank you, Cameron. Go ahead. Let's do the same question. Oh, different? No, different. No, no, different question. I don't get that. That long. To think of my question, I lost my die. Where did it go. I have 36. What nerdy franchise would you love to see redone as a musical?

Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And I say that knowing that there already obviously is a musical episode, but the entire show could be a musical. In fact, I want to write a three act play where the entire show, all seven seasons, is done as a play, but the entire second act is once more with feeling, which is a single episode, which means packing in, you know, five seasons into the first act, which would just be just for the sake.

It would be only written for Buffy fans, and it would be entirely chaotic and hilarious. That sounds amazing. I am a big Buffy fan and I know exactly what you're thinking, what you're talking about with once more with feeling. And that I'm. I'm so in. I'm so in on this idea. That's awesome, Cam. You blurred your background. Are we about to see a huge Buffy wall? Look at that. I'm building a wall. And I've got plenty more to hang. Yeah,

I got some good ones here. I just. I put charisma carpenter up next to Joss Whedon, and then it fell off and smashed on a monster. So that was a lesson for me. But, yeah, some good stuff. And one last one just showing off my collection. Don't start, Cam on Buffy. Alright, let's move on to the next question before. So would you like to hear my theories above Buffy the vampire? We've quickly tapped it. All right, Tara. Come on. All right, Tara,

your turn to roll. D. 100. That's a different newsletter. 38. If you were a student at Hogwarts, which house would you be put into? Even though you know you should be in this house? Probably be miscategorized as Gryffindor. Gryffindor. Because I'm loud, but I'm actually Slytherin 100%. And Cam's Ravenclaw. But you'd actually be a Slytherin? Oh, I'm very much. And I'm very open about being Slytherin. Not all slytherins are bad. We just run the world or die trying.

Mmm. Right. That makes sense why you're in events. We can't live without the hufflepuffs. We can't live without the Gryffindors. The raven claws. We need all four houses. Very important. And I could write a whole paper on that. But myself, I definitely feel the Slytherin role in society. Slytherins have to rule over somebody. So all those other have, whether they. Know it or not, one's gotta make a plan. Who else is gonna make a plan. The Gryffindors? No, they're just going to show up and

try to be the hero. The hufflepuff. Oh, my God. They're just busy, like, making crochet. And, like, the Ravenclaws, they're just in a tower somewhere coming up with ideas. They don't want to talk to anybody else or have anything to do with the plebs. So who is going to make the spreadsheet and make the plan? Tell them what they're supposed to be doing. It's got to be a slytherin. We can't get anywhere without the Slytherins.

They're the people who take action. They're the ones who create all the pro, all the. All the plot in the, in the story. So, Cameron, go ahead and roll. Last D 100, please. Oh, this is so fun. We should just keep doing this. 70. I love talking about myself. It's the best. It is pretty great. Well, we're not done. There's more. There's a second phase after this. All right. Okay. Ooh.

Oh, God, I love it. We're getting so many good d and d questions with you guys because there's a lot of different things on here. What would you name your pet? Beholder? Chuckles. Chuckles the beholder. Chuckles. That's a good one. With the tentacle or with the eyes? Would they be all the usual or would there be something different? Like, one would be the. I don't know, but I feel like bubbles.

I feel like with a name like chuckles, you could really, you know, lower expectations for, you know, the people you were trying to intimidate with, and it would generally be good for a laugh. You know, I think if they're open to being called chuckles and they, I would assume that would lend to them some kind of personality that was more amenable and less likely to rip my face off. Yeah. Plus they also have really just big mouths, so they'd be kind of hilarious to see them smile and chuckle and.

Like chuckles the beholder. That's now going to be an NPC in my X game. Chuckles the beholder. Okay, now we're going to move on to rapid fire. So these are quick questions. We will choose them from a larger list that we have here. They're short questions. Your answers can. Are typically short. It's more like one to three word answers. You've met us now, though. Yes. That's why I kind of stammered there. But then also, if your answers are wrong, we're going to ask you why.

So first one is obligatory. I'm going to start with Tara here of the Sci-Fi genres. Star wars or Star Trek? I saw this on your list, and you're evil. And I'm saying no. No to both of them. I say no to your question. Yes. The answer is yes. Star wars or Star Trek? Yes. I don't compute. This is not a Kayashi maru. She said it is, pretty much. It's a binary answer. But this is not the binary input I expected. She answered the question. Move on.

All right, how about who's your favorite Star Trek captain? Pop card? Yoda or Obi Wan? Oh, that's evil. I gotta go with Obi Wan. I'm going with Obi Wan. Oh, Obi wan just got one. That's the first. Obi Wan first. You're the first. Yeah, we've had a lot of. It's the cape. That's the cape. Sorry, I'm just a sucker for a cape. Salty or sweet? Salty. Three favorite pizza toppings. A vegetarian, so it's whatever vegetables they have, I enjoy, like ditch olives and feta cheese.

Those are good and salty. Very salty. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Those are all salty. How many cats is too many cats? One. They're disgusting. Says the Slytherin. I grew up having cats. They're disgusting. Role playing or combat? Role playing. Combat's too stressful. No, that makes total sense. You love the events where you get to roleplay. You don't do d and daughter, so that makes total sense. I was going to switch over to Cameron now. Yeah, let's throw over to Cameron.

All right, Cameron, we're going to try to hit you with some different ones. Here, and then you can tell us who won. Uh huh. Exactly. Uh, favorite meal? Breakfast. Dinner or lunch? Breakfast. Why, though? Well, I'm just so hungry when I wake up, I'm always so happy to have food. Like, whatever it is, I'm like, yeah, breakfast. Yeah. In my face. And I love cereal. And I eat a lot of cereal because it's so convenient.

When we were kids, he once told me, cereal is the best food because it quenches your thirst and satisfies your hunger at the same time. That's a direct quote, Cameron. Rat. And you get so mad when the cereal had run out in the morning. They've never seen rage like that. Or someone left the milk out. I was. It was usually me that left a milk out, and it was followed by rage. On that note, is cereal a soup? Oh, it'd be a gazpacho. Actually. Well, is gazpacho not soup? I don't know.

This hurts my head, I guess. So maybe because they're not prepared together is the defining factor of soup. That it's a liquid or that the ingredients are like gazpacho and soups are cooked together and then they're made into soup. The fact that they're added together after. They'Re cold, that's a good definition, actually. Yeah. Cereal is a component of mixing, right? As opposed to it's a mechanical mixture. It'S not a chemical mixture.

But I'll go with it because that's more reasons to eat cereal. So I'm going to say I'm eating soup. That way you can have cereal for dinner or lunch because soup is acceptable anytime, but breakfast, because then cereal has to be there. Right? I often eat curry for breakfast, but that's. Sorry. Curry. Curry for breakfast is the best thing. Beans on toast. But it's dull. It's amazing. It's way flavorful and better also brought. I lived in Canada long enough. I know that's not a canadian thing.

That's not a canadian thing. But it's probably delicious. If you do a big brunch too, it's proof that you're not doing anything that day. That's a good feeling. You're like, well, I'm eating this brunch. Obviously. We're not doing anything important or stressful. I'm just eating this brunch. See, I think everyone loves brunch the most, but he doesn't give that as an option, so. Because everyone would choose it. Yeah, I'm not gonna lead the. I don't do a good job at breakfast. Yeah.

I should put more effort into breakfast, is what the moral of the story is. So which is nerdier, football or foosball? American football or european football? American football. Okay. How is that nerdy? I think it's the nerdiest sport in the world. Fantasy football. Fantasy football is nerdy. That's all football is now. There's a lot of. It's like everybody. Playing foosball. Like, I gotta clarify. That's a good point. Playing football is not nerdy. No. The question does not distinguish.

I'm gonna end foosball. Because even if you play foosball, you're still a nerd. If you play football, you're really a nerd. Fantasy football might exist, but if we're talking about spectating, then I could see that being on par, because playing foos. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be nerdy. But I do have to say the only people I've ever played foosball with were engineers in the engineering lounge at my college. So that's pretty nerdy.

And in the break rooms at work, which is a tech company, so that's more nerdy. Yeah. Many points on the foosball for nerdiness. Sorry. All right. That's all right. They might be giants or rush. I am not a fan of either. I don't dislike either. I'm just not. Okay. They must be giants. I'll go. Tony. If I had to pick, I was like, if I had to pick, I'd pick. They must be checked. I thought because of your canadian background, maybe Rush would have a shot in there, but that's all right.

I wouldn't have chosen Rush either. I gotta go listen to some rush. I'm gonna come back with a more informed opinion in a couple of days. I'll give him a deep dive. I wanted to ask you, Cam, in a word, picture here. You know, your d and D skills, your DM skills come into life. What does a cool nerd look like? Cool nerds are confident, unapologetically nerdy. They are accepting and friendly

and encouraging and open their. Yes. And people, they know, you know, they know what it's like to have been on the other side, and they use their powers for the forces of good. And I wanted to ask both of you this question. What is your zombie apocalypse weapon of choice? I'm going with the herd. I don't know if that's a choice, but me and my wife have a pact that if the zombie apocalypse comes, we just go. We're just going to the herd. Ain't nobody got time to deal with that stress.

This is way too much. You're just going to be like, come on, take me, fight me. Just. Nope. Just a giant noop on this whole thing. I'm not doing it. No. Done with that. Everyone thinks of themselves as the survivor. No, you're going to be a zombie. You're going to be like, that's you. How about you, Tara? Is any same thing. Is there like a getaway jet? I'm going with getaway jet. An island. A getaway helicopter. But the pilot's been bitten. Two minutes. Not pride and prejudice and zombies.

That's all I got to say. Not enough funny juxtaposition. I've heard that that's actually a pretty good book or comic or. It's a book. It's a book first. And it was a funny idea, and that's why it's sold. I read the book. I saw the movie because I have to. I have a lot of thoughts on that. I wrote a blog post. You can read it later. Bye. Otherwise I'll talk a long time. I really would love to ask you, Cam, the same question. Star Trek or Star Wars?

I grew up on next Generation, but didn't watch much Star Trek other than that. And it definitely holds like a place in my heart. And I also, the first movie I ever saw was Return of the Jedi in the theaters, the first movie I saw in the theaters. And so that is a difficult choice between them. I'm going to go based on which one has particularly brought more joy into my life. Bye, proxy.

And I would say that's Star wars, because more people who love Star wars have brought that energy and those jokes and those costumes and things into my life. And though I love Star Trek, if there had been no Star wars, my life would have looked more different than if there had been no Star Trek. You know, the kids that camp, there was a group of kids in high school that we called the Star wars boys, and there were three of them, and they were part of Cam's crew and they were the Star wars boys.

So I know exactly what he's done. And even I went to the theater with them to see, like, the remastered versions with the extra footage, you know, in around 19, 94, 95. Whenever that happened, we all went to that together. Laserdisc. Yeah. One last thing, and this will be the last question on my side, but because it came up, which stranger things kid are you most like? Oh, good question. That's too hard. That is too hard. Which stranger things character am I most like?

Ah, man. Why is this? I don't know if there are archetypes, if those characters are very distinct characters, but I don't know if they're archetypes like Tara's probably Elle, I would say.

I know that might just sound easy because you're a girl, but because Elle's, you know, transformation from finding her power and, you know, in, in the relationship between, you know, amongst the boys and, you know, amongst the girls, you know, figuring out what the path is and learning that the super power was, you know, a commitment to your own self as a nerd and as a just powerful person and embracing. Yeah, I think I won't go too detailed, this interesting point

of conversation for dinner. But. But, yeah, I would say Tara would be Al, I'd probably be will. And that's not just because he's the one that always wants to play d and D. But he was the sort of cerebral outcast type that was probably more me. It was always. He was, he wasn't always in the group. He was always off doing something else, being captured by something. Yeah, I was. I never felt like I was 100% one of the nerds, right?

Even though I was a nerd, I wasn't cool and I wasn't a nerd and I wasn't. I was just this outsider, weird kid from New Zealand that, you know, always wanted to play D and D, but it was a little too weird. So I don't know, maybe that translates to will. Awesome. Awesome. Well, where can people find you, support you, and potentially sign up to come be and do D and D in a castle? Dndina castle.com that's really the letter n. D n dinacastle.com or at Dndina castle, it's very easy.

If you search dnd castle, you will find us. We are everywhere. It's great. Great SEO. Yeah. Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that. That makes me happy. Yes. Metrics make me happy. Yeah. D and Dana Castle, you can find us at the website. If you want to reach us, contact at Dandina Castle. We'll go straight to our Zendesk and we'll. Yeah, love to hear. I'd love to hear from other entrepreneurs or people who just had general questions. We're not a very big company. We will find your email.

We may not respond to it, but it's only because we're too busy. But, you know, feel free to fire away any questions or if you want to talk about stuff. Yeah. Happy to hear what's going on. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. This has been an awesome, awesome episode. Well, thank you, Parish. You know, this has been a really interesting angle to talk about things and be able to talk about a bit of therapy for us. So thanks for that. Well, behind the scenes, yeah.

You guys are board certified psychologists, right? This is all. That's exactly what Medicare will cover. This. Keep it nerdy. Keep it nerdy. Keep it real, real nerdy. Thank you for listening to Nerdpreneur. Be sure to subscribe wherever you found us. Us. And leave a review on Apple podcasts. Every review helps our show grow. You can follow and chat with us on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. Nerdpreneurpodcast Nerdpreneur is a labor of passion and Chris and I would love to keep this thing going.

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