Welcome to Nerdpreneur, where we have fun conversations with people making money from their nerdy passion. As always, I'm joined by my co host, Frank. Hello. And today we have a very special guest. Cheryl LaBarre, co founder and COO of Made Outdoor. Welcome to Nerdpreneur. Hi. Well, we're very happy to have you. So, Cheryl, what is your nerdy passion? I am a huge nerd for outerwear. In fact, I am such a nerd that since I was a teenager, my online handle for video games has been outerwear nerd.
Wow. I thought that was just specific to your discord handle, but that is something you've been doing for a while. Yeah, that's always been it. You claimed the real estate. I did, yeah. It's been since like 1617 that it's been my. My username. If I were looking for outerwear and I wanted to like, subscribe to a blog of some sort where I was like, this person's got to know outerwear. Outerwear, I would 100% click on outerwear Nerd. That is a great handle. Yeah. Maybe I should start a blog.
Yeah, totally. And then recommend your outerwear. It sounds like a great marketing idea. With ChatGPT, you could probably make a dozen articles just on that stuff right off the bat. Yeah, as long as it's all information relevant to 2021 and before. Oh, that's Right. Yes. The current outerwear trends would not be in its database. Uh oh, as much as we want to talk about AI, we don't want to talk about AI. We want to talk about you.
And actually, there is going to be AI at some point, Chris, because of their program that they use. Yeah, actually, we do use a little bit of AI, so we will talk about that. If you hold your horses, Chris, we will get to your favorite topic. Well, I'm excited to get there. Now explain for the people who don't know, including me, exactly what it is your business is and how it works. Yeah. So made outdoors, we make fully custom made to measure outdoor wear.
So ski jackets and pants, we're expanding into other markets, but we will make you something that you design yourself in our online designer tool. And then we take your measurements using our AI and then from there, our system will generate a fully custom pattern, and the factory makes you a jacket that is one of a kind and made exactly to your specifications, perfect for exactly what you want out of your outerwear.
So this is all focused mainly on ski wear specifically right now, or is it like, can it be worn for anything? Yeah. So right now, we launched with a ski jacket and pants, and we did that very specifically because we wanted to come to the market with something that was like a pinnacle product. But we. Our jacket can be
worn in any other outdoor pursuit. We. It's a generous cut because it's designed to layer with you what you would wear skiing, but you can change your features based on what you're doing. So you could pare it down a little bit and design something for the city, or you could add different features that might make it better for hiking or whatever it is that you do, just with the knowledge that the pattern is cut for skiing. And then we plan to add additional sectors as we grow. And for lanky guys
like me who have long ass arms. Right. You can actually make a jacket that doesn't. That protects my wrists. Yeah. Yeah. You will have warm wrists if you get a maid jacket. That's awesome. That's awesome. I can't tell you how many times I have actually, like, I have bought from a locally sourced outdoor wear place. I won't throw them under the bus, but I will just say that I bought a jacket from them and they. It just doesn't really. It doesn't feel comfortable.
Like I can't wear it over top of something. Even that sweater you're wearing looks like it's too short on your. Well, yeah, it is. It is definitely. And but it's also an extra large, so it's like way wide here. Clothing is a difficult thing. I've actually thought about getting custom clothing for a long time. I just haven't gone and made the step into it yet. Yeah, you got it. That's a great example. I'm. I'm in. I'm like in. If I. If I skied more, I would be just like 100%.
But if I can raise in Vancouver, if it's going to rain, you can. Wear a made jacket, a good quality rain jacket. Sounds like a smart investment in anywhere along the. Well, Seattle too, right, Frank? Yeah. And anywhere rains. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I gotta know some of the basics here. So when did you all found this? Yeah, so we started. We met all for the first time. So I have two co founders, Capri Philip and Dustin Butcher. And they're amazing. They're awesome if you want to talk to them.
They're also big nerds, but they. So Capri and I used to work together at, I'm pretty sure the same company that Chris is alluding to. We worked on all of the ski product at a local outerwear brand, and we loved it, but we had some problems with the fit as well as some of the features and things we wanted at the same time. Dustin is. He lives in Salt Lake City and he was skiing with some friends, and he has this one pair of pants that he really, really loves the features of.
And then he has another pair of pants that he really likes, the fit. So he was on a ski tour one day and he decided that he wanted to buy some custom pants for skiing. He had just bought his first custom suit. So he went home and he googled custom ski wear. Like, what can I get? And he thought for sure this must exist. And there wasn't anybody out there that was doing custom fitting and custom design. So he asked a mutual colleague of ours, you know, who do you know in apparel that might be able
to help me make this a reality? And she said, I've got two people that you need. And he met with both of us. And individually he was just kind of looking for one partner to start this. But when he met with each of us, we realized that it was really the three of us that needed to happen. And the first time that we all met, I believe, was early April 2020. Perfect time to start a business. Perfect time to start a business.
And it was like really just an initial call of figuring out, is this something that we want to do? Is it even reasonable? Do we like each other. And it kind of grew from there. And then I left my job in October 2020. Capri left shortly after, and we all met in person for the first time ever, January 2022, after two years of business together. Whoa. So this was 100% virtual team for the first. Almost two years of. Yeah, we're actually still 100% remote.
What was that first meeting like for you all to come together for the first time or like, in person? I know you've been working together, but. Oh, it was really like. Okay. So if I think back, like on our very first, like, video meetings, it's really funny because we were very professional. You're sending emails that were like, best regards and I feel like I could add this value. And it was like super,
super professional. Very, like, very, very clean cut and strictly like, like, I'm writing in like, MLA format professional emails. I feel like that's how it starts, though. Totally. Yeah. I'm serious about this. It's almost what we're saying, right? Like, don't ever doubt my serious commitment. To, I am a very serious business person and you should start a business with me. And then. So you alluded to it a little bit earlier when we were chatting before the call, Frank.
But when you talk on video like this, you don't necessarily get a sense for like, someone's whole being and like, their size or anything like that. So we met for the very first time at a trade show in Denver. And Dustin, we all were flying in at the same time and Dustin arrived a little bit before us. So he came and waited for us at our gate and we walked right by him because we were like, I was like, this guy's looking at us a lot. Just like, kept walking. Then we realized it's
Dustin that's like, oh, my God. Hugs. Like, we're so happy to see each other. And it was so nice to, like, we have the same rapport and the same trust and energy in person. And that was kind of like, it was a little nerve wracking. It was like, you know, you're not sure if you're going to like this person in person. And we were going to be sharing an Airbnb for three days. And it was great. It was great.
I was like when Frank and I kind of met in person for the first time because we met during COVID as well. And it was funny because we did it through D and D and like, then we started talking to podcasts and it was kind of like that. Then we actually did meet in person and I had no idea that there was a height differential between us at all. It was funny. I won't let anyone know which of us was one or the other. But why? Why not? Yeah, I will say the same thing.
So Dustin is a very average sized man. He's like medium, like pretty, pretty standard, medium sized guy. He was really interested in starting the business from like a custom side of things. Capri and I are on exact opposite ends of the fit spectrum. So I'm tall and curvy and Capri is like a foot shorter than me and super petite, but she has really long arms. And so like on screen, Dustin didn't really know that Capri was that much shorter than me. And he had seen some.
A photo shoot of us and saw them and was like, oh my God, I didn't know that you guys were that different. And so you see the three of us together and it's like we kind of like go staggered in height and like, it's very, it's very. It tells a very clear story when you see the three of us standing next to each other. But yeah, it was one of those things where we had no idea what each other's sizes were because we'd met online.
Yeah, that's just, that's like, I want to say kind of COVID Generational, you know, just the fact that we. So many other people started businesses around this time. You know, people either left their jobs or they were laid off or people just finally decided, I'm going to take this leap, you know, well, we didn't. Have anything else to do. Right. Yeah. Locked down and stuck with my ideas and a couple people that we all need breaks from. So maybe I'll do something.
And it's a reoccurring thing we hear is that I met so and so online during the pandemic or I got in touch with friends during the pandemic. And one of the other things that I was curious about is I think I know the answer. But the supply chain around, because your focus is operations, as I understand, in the production process. And so for you kind of diving into it right now, I guess is the supply chain at the time, that was a nightmare in a lot of cases for you.
What is. But, but it also was what you came to know in the beginning of this. You, you came into this knowing that it was going to be challenging and then just became more and more. So what are some of the lessons sort of like tenants that maybe have evolved out of it that you're like, you know what now I can't think of doing it any other way. Yeah, I think. I mean, it's a bit of. It's
like two different sides of it. Like, yeah, we knew that Covid was going to have an effect on stuff, but also we didn't know that Covid was going to affect stuff the way that it did. Like, we had no idea when we started this that it was going to last as long as it did. Like, even when I left and it was doing it full time, like, made. We thought we were going to launch, like, we did our Kickstarter or an Indiegogo actually in May or March 2021. And then we thought we were going to go into
full live production in November 2021. Like, we had planned to use our Indiegogo campaign money to fund our first purchase order, and then stuff was going to arrive in time. We flew to Bangladesh in November 2021. Oh, wow. Yeah, November 2021. And we really thought that we were going live in production. That was kind of what we planned. But our materials didn't arrive until June 2022. Wow. And we're a ski brand. That's not the best ski time. No. So we. It's
really challenged us. Like, everything, like, our cash flow has had to stretch way further. We are seeking investors now and it's just really changed everything. Like, we didn't have as strong of a start as we thought we would because we had worked everything out as to, like, what the timing is. You know, when you order materials, it's like 12 to 16 weeks before delivery, sometimes longer. And it was like eight months. Like, sometimes longer. Was a really generous longer they put in there. Wow.
Yeah, it was like 18 weeks. Like 18 months sometimes. Like, and I know, like, if our any of our indiegogo campaign supporters are listening, they're probably so sick of me telling people that zippers was a problem because we, like emailed our customers so many times and we're like, okay, we have black zippers. Do you want to change your order so that you can get it early? You can have a black zipper now if
you want a blue zipper or teal zipper. Like, you have to wait until those arrive and we have no idea when they're arriving. So we had people changing their zipper colors and changing their. Their main fabric color and like, like just trying to get a jacket that fit them in time for season. And then like, even this season, it's been way
delayed because of shipping times. Like, we ship direct to consumer and it takes, you know, three weeks just to ship from the factory, not even including making the stuff. And it's been crazy. Like, it's still not over and it's just something we deal with. Yeah. I'm curious when you started this as an idea, right? It came to you guys and, like, you met with these people. What is step one in, like, deciding to actually make a ski brand? I'm curious because. Yeah, what's step one?
What do you do when you come together as three people or co founders and say, like, all right, let's make this brand, let's do this thing? Step one was kind of like asking our friends and family, like, okay, is this something that you think you'd be interested in? We sent out a couple surveys, but Capri and I were still working at our job. So, like, there were. We were very limited on, like, what we could actually do without being in reach of response.
So we were really careful to make sure that we were, like, treading lightly. So we send out a couple surveys, asked our friends, just like, what are the problems that you have right now with what's available on the market? Are you interested? You know, how much would you pay for this? Would you pay more or less? Like, we're a new brand and that was kind of how we started. And then, and then really, we still weren't sure if we could do it until we found a factory. I like that.
That is actually something we don't hear a lot from the people we speak to about. Scoping out your market audience with actual survey material before you launch in the market. It's kind of like, oh, duh, that is such a good idea. You really have to. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, like, it. We were in a very, like, specific case because like I said, like, Capri and I were under contract. So, like, if we were gonna do this, there was no way we could do it unless we quit our jobs. And so
I wasn't gonna quit my job. That I had, like, a comfortable salary job where I'd been for five years. I loved the work I was doing. I loved the people I was working with. I wasn't just going to quit on an idea. So we needed to have some, like, data of like, okay, like, we have enough people that say they want this that, like, we'll do it. Is that why there was the appeal of kind of doing the indiegogos because they can.
You can kind of present the idea and then get a bunch of people to sort of get investors who are essentially pre ordering for you so you have the money to be able to Go and set it up. Is that the reason why you went that direction as opposed to, I don't know, just approaching private investors or friends and family and that kind of thing or. Yeah, absolutely. Like, we. We wanted to get, like, some customer data as well. If we wanted to know, like, what the interest level was, like,
could we sell enough? Could we, like, what were our customers asking for? What were they? What. Who were they? And it's also really good marketing. Like, you get, like, a lot of buzz just from, like, the fact that you're posting all the time and you're doing all this stuff. So it was kind of like a bit of marketing, a bit of customer, like, validation, like, product market fit, and just a lot of fun. Nice. Sounds like you enjoyed that early experience. Is that accurate?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've enjoyed almost all of it. There's like. I mean, any entrepreneur will tell you there's days where you're like, oh, my God, what am I doing? Yeah. But all in all, like, I'm an outerwear nerd. I was like, I. I did an internship when I was in university, and they were like, what do you want to do? And I was like, well, someday I'd love to run my own business, but I never want to be a designer. I want to be a product developer.
And I'm fortunate enough that my business partner kind of said the same thing, but they wanted to be a designer. So we kind of work really well together. We've worked really. We've worked together, like, previously, so that's really easy. And I just. I get to do exactly what I want, so it's like, the best ever. So I want to. You kind of just touched on this, which was perfect because I wanted. Even though I jumped in on the production side, I wanted to back up and ask you about your passion,
where this really came from. I mean, if you've known for so long that you want to work in outerwear, how did you know that? Yeah, lucky me. I actually. I started. I got my start in the outdoor industry at a tiny little outdoor shop on the Sunshine coast in D.C. i grew up hiking, camping, kayaking. That's kind of like the area that I grew up in. So I was always really more inclined to wear, like, a rain jacket than something, like, cool.
And I. So, yeah, I got my start at that shop, and that's where I sort of started to learn more about, like, the technology that goes into outerwear. I was doing a lot of, like, product knowledge with the reps that would come in, and so I was, like, learning a lot about, you know, how to sell it to customers. But for me, I also loved sewing. I kind of thought I wanted to go into fashion, but I didn't really like the sort of, like, artsy, fartsy, pretentious side of fashion.
Right. And. And I knew, like, okay, well, everybody makes, like, everybody wears clothes. Like, where's that? And I was really fortunate that aside from having that experience in the outdoor shop where they encouraged me to focus on, like, the clothing and selling it, I also got to have a mentor that came into our school, and she was a product developer at mec. Oh, MEC Yeah.
Yeah. So she. She was a product developer, and she came in and did a presentation to my class when I was in high school about what she did as a job. Shout out to Celeste. Thanks. And she did this presentation about how she was the product developer on a children's jacket at mec. And what she was doing was trying to find a button that was safe for kids because kids tend to chew on their buttons.
And so she was, like, researching baby bottles and, like, baby toys and, like, the polymers and things that they use in that and, like, trying to work with somebody to create this button that would be safe for kids to chew on. And at the same time that she came in, I was kind of, like, torn between if I wanted to go into sciences or if I wanted to go into fashion, because I was really, really good at science, and I loved science, I loved math, but I loved outerwear.
And I love sewing, and I love fashion. And so it kind of was those two things married together. And I was really fortunate that I got to learn about that when I was really young. And so from there, I kind of just was like, okay, I love outerwear. I love sewing, I love fashion, I like science. I'm gonna go and I want to be a product developer on outerwear. And that's literally what I spent my entire, like, schooling focused on my whole career.
I used to get in trouble at university because they we would have a project to do, like a tailored jacket. And what they say when they mean a tailored jacket is like a men's peacoat. Like a wool double breasted coat with shoulder pads. Ah, yes, Assumptions. Love it. And I was like, snowboard jacket. And they were like, that's not tailored. And I was like, I will make it tailored. Not yet. It isn't. Right? It is now. Yeah, it is.
So often when I think about someone nerding out about something, they get really passionate, and you can see the enthusiasm and excitement when they start talking about something specific. So what is it that you can feel when you start talking about it? What is the kind of stuff that you're like, oh, yeah, I was talking about this thing that one day, and then I got so into it that I kind of lost track of how much I was going into the subject. Oh, I have so many stories. Okay.
I have a very recent one where I was talking about materials. I was really lucky to attend a retreat that was, like, a business social entrepreneurs retreat. And I happened to get into the same room at this party with a guy who was interested in, like, materials and denim. And he had worked on, like, the science and the. And the, like, harvesting side.
And we were, like, at this party, this, like, lively party with a dj, everybody's dancing, drinking, and we're, like, in the private, like, corner where it's, like, the quiet space. And he and I are, like, on the edge of our chair, like, up like this. Like, just, like, cutting everybody off from the circle, like, in the middle, heads together, talking about, like, polymer fibers and glues and adhesives.
And I just get, like, so intense and excited, and my eyes light up, and I'm just like, ah, I love that. That is. Oh, that is so good. What a great. And then we would apologize. Like, we would be like, oh, my God, guys, we're so sorry. Like, we're totally ruining the vibe for everybody else. Like, you guys probably want to talk, too. Like, we've taken over this entire seating room. And then they'd be like, no, it's fine. You're interesting. And we would immediately go back.
It's like, we're talking about, like, polyurethane membranes and, like, adhesives on jackets. And he and everybody else is, like, so over their head, not interested at all. And me and him are just, like, two peas in a pod. So excited about this. That's perfect. That's awesome. So I'm curious, like, with that context, what would be your definition of a nerd? Oh, I think everybody's a little bit of a nerd. Or at least everybody.
I know my definition of a nerd is somebody who takes a. Who has, like, a special interest in something and, like, pursues that with, like, joy and vigor, which, like, I think that there can be a little bit of a perception that nerd is a bad thing, but I love it. So do we. I think. Yeah, I figured that might be the case. We try. We try to own it more than anything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Especially, I mean, one of the things That I think is so your story is the more you explain about your excitement, your enthusiasm, your passion, it's so you're like the poster example of a nerd, to be honest. At least my definition of it. Victory. Yeah. Like, you started from a young age, but not only did you were you fortunate enough to identify it early on, but it never has, really. It sounds like it hasn't, you know,
waned out of existence. I mean, sure, you know, it ebbs and flows just like anything in our life, but for the most part, you have stayed true and strong to that passion. And that is, I think, the difference between being a nerd about something and just being excited about something. Because being excited about something can, you know, wane out of excitement, you know, possibly forever. It was like, oh, I learned about bitcoin, but now I really don't care anymore.
And I used to be excited. Well, that's not. That's not being like a bitcoin nerd or, you know, you know, having passion for it. But, like, what you're talking about is just like, straight up passion. Just a lifelong obsession. Yes, exactly, obsession. That's what being a nerd in is, a lifelong obsession around something. Something. Well, I will say this. If I want someone making me a ski jacket, I want them to have that level of passion where they understand what polyurethane poly is.
You just said membranes are. I do want someone with that to design a jacket, because I don't want to have to figure all that stuff out. That's the convenience of it. In fact, I wanted to ask this in terms of getting us back on a business sort of track. Like, how does that passion translate into the values behind your company? And maybe you can speak to some of those values. Yeah. So we have, like, a pretty solid list of values. Sustainability, inclusion. We like to have fun.
We like to be cheeky. Our mission is to create a world where everybody feels welcome and included in the outdoor space, and we want to do that as sustainably as possible, possible. So where that translates is, like, in my career, I would be told to, like, go and find a solution to something. So that might be like, okay, I. I am hoping that everybody that's listening to the podcast has heard of PFAS or Forever Chemicals. Poly fluorine. I forget the full term, but PPAs are forever chemicals.
It's on all of your outerwear. There are different versions of it. So there's a certain amount of carbon chains on the chemical that makes it worse or more bad. And the lower the number goes, the Better. It is. So, for example, the waterproofing on a fabric I was using was previously c8. And then we were trying to transition to c6, and then we were trying to transition to C0.
And as we were working through that, there was constantly these barriers that we would come up against, which would be like, timing, cost, customer perception, like, how are we going to make it happen? Then the laws, like that's also really important. Like the US and all the countries, like a lot of countries are mandating the removal of these things, which is great, but sometimes that happens on a timeline that just doesn't
work in the fashion industry. So, like, that's where I would get like, really, really, like deep into the weeds and then I would find out that, like, it's not a problem we could solve in the, in the space that I was. So that kind of led into like our values at MADE was like, we wanted to start by like finding the most sustainable options and ways to do something from the beginning.
And we wanted to make sure that we had the margin to be able to do that because we didn't want to find ourselves in 10 years. And I'm not saying that we won't. Like, technology is going to evolve and of course we're going to have to make changes to become the next version of what's the most sustainable. But that really flowed into our values of like, we wanted to do it right from the beginning. We wanted to try really hard. And if we couldn't.
I heard a quote once where somebody was like tipping at a restaurant and it was like, if somebody has to, if somebody can't, if a business can't afford to pay their employees a full wage and they need somebody to tip in order to give their employees a full wage, then the business shouldn't exist. And that's kind of how I felt about sustainability.
When we were building our values and doing MADE and inclusion and things, it was like, okay, if we're going to make people feel bad because they don't fit our clothes and they can't go into the outdoor space, we shouldn't do this. If we're going to do something that's going to harm the environment and we're just going to add extra shit to the environment, we shouldn't do this. I am a minor socialist and I had like a very big identity crisis, actually.
I sat outside on a brewery and like bawled my eyes out with my fiance because we were talking about capitalism and about like the down. The downsides of capitalism. And I was like, I Am literally starting a corporation. Like, how do I deal with this? And that's like, kind of been built into our values because I am so nerdy about this and passionate. I know the, like, downsides and I read the books and so we kind of have just tried to do it the right way from the beginning as best we can.
That is so good. Like, oh, my God, we could talk the entire time about that and how you've navigated that. But I have a feeling, Chris, we. Can go till midnight if you keep asking me nerdy questions. Well, I am fascinated about that because I think that what you just said there is what a lot of people could relate to is growing up or having a real care right now around sustainability and inclusion, those values.
But the crisis of what those values represent in terms of how does it match with capitalism? Is this now the rise of the ethical capitalist? Because I actually believe that's what nurepreneur is about too. But I think that capitalism on my side has always been, if you have the ethical capitalist moving in that direction, then things can actually be fixed through doing the best you can and doing things the right way, where people are getting paid and it is sustainable.
And I'm curious, like, how is that in your mind now as you've actually started doing it? Yeah. Oh, that's a very weighty question. I like it. Yeah, I think that's it. I think the ethical capitalist and that retreat that I mentioned earlier, it's called Social Venture Institute, and it is a course, a retreat for people who are trying to be ethical capitalists who are starting businesses to create the next version of things. And they're out there, like, people are trying to do it.
I think that this new generation of entrepreneurs is doing it because it's the bare minimum. Like, like I said, like, if, If a company's not inclusive, if a company's not environmental, environmental, why does it exist? Like, like, I think, I think Canadians that are listening will be familiar with, you know, Justin Trudeau's gender equal cabinet in 2015, where he got elected. And the first thing he did was he
created a gender equal cabinet. And, you know, he was asked by a journalist, like, why was this so important to you? And all he said was, like, it's 2015. Like, yeah, I remember that. It's 2023. Like, it just, like, it just should be this. If you're not creating a business that, like, is the bare minimum of, like, not evil, you shouldn't do it. Yeah, you said, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you Off. No, I was just going to say that's
just my thoughts on it. Like, you shouldn't do it if it's not the bare minimum of just decent. I love the way you painted your realization because it then became a realization for me. Now I get to grapple with it. So it's kind of this like hot potato that we need to learn how to hold, which is specifically if a company uses sustainability and inclusion as one of its core tenants, which you see pretty common now. A lot of them talk the talk, but that's about as far as it goes.
And I can think of a couple outdoor brands, for example. It's like, if you are going to cater to the outdoors as a market, but the products you create, like you said, are forever chemicals, like that is going directly against what, what you're about. How can you sleep at night? How can you, I mean, sure, you can make money, but like, how can you be okay with that as a company?
And I think that's like, that's an amazing, maybe it's just my sheltered mind finally seeing this, but it's, it is a lot of just that's, that's such a great thing to, to excuse a pun, but capitalize on. Yeah, I think a really good example is Patagonia. I think, you know, any corporation is going to have their issues. I think that they, like, there's a lot of talk about them, that they have created this, this fund for, for like Earth Earth, of being their only shareholder.
And of course there are benefits to the billionaires that own Patagonia, but they are like, they have created a business that like gives back as much as it can. You, I think it can be both things. I think you can be a profitable business. You maybe don't need to be a billion dollar profitable business. Like I, I. And maybe this will change as we grow and we take on investors. I'm sure that it will. And I'll do my best
to change to like hold to this. We're trying to find ethical investors right now. That's like a big milestone for us. But I think it's totally reasonable to take a 49% margin instead of a 56% margin because it's going to allow you to pay your workers a fair wage and use sustainable
materials and do these things. And, and I, what I ran up against in my career so far at other companies was that like, if we didn't hit 52% on our margin, the product got canceled and it was like, well, we can't push these, these ethical Initiatives because we're getting, we're pushing up against profit. And I think that I'm fully willing as a founder and a co owner of this business to like take one point less in mar. In margin because it's ethical.
And I think more people need to be willing to do that. I agree. It comes down to the idea of where greed is. And we're not always sure exactly the line at which point greed, where we're just, we're profit oriented or turns into greed. Yeah, there's a real line I think of like, I mean, I question in my mind whether there is such thing as an ethical billionaire. Because, you know, if that were the case, would you
really have a billion dollars? Like, it's like, if I'm the richest man in the world, that actually means you have some sort of ethical failing. Like, it seems crazy that you're the richest person in the world. That money should be not yours anymore for a lot of reasons. And it doesn't necessarily need to be the government either, by the way, that takes it. So I'm not a socialist. I want to make that very clear. I actually don't believe.
I believe moral failings are not. Are rarely, rarely going to be saved by the government. But I will say that if you have a level of care for people and society at large, being the richest person or even a billionaire in general, it should be very challenging for you to do. You should be giving a lot of that money away and utilizing it and supporting the things that are important to be solved. You know, I've always. I don't know, maybe I'm idealistic, but I have this dream of like a board of.
A board of shadowy gentlemen or women or thems or anyone who happen to be millionaires or billionaires, but they actually go out and use that money to solve problems in the world. You're talking about the Tavern. Is that what it is? Such a Canadian idea, isn't it? Pretty sure that came out of. Out of what's his face is Austin Power guy. Mike Myers. Mike Myers. We all got there. It just felt, it felt like when I was like, why doesn't it? This is exactly what I want. The Pandavirate.
Well, what I think is like, Amazon is an amazing business. It's such a good business idea. And there's nothing wrong with the like, business model of like fast turnaround times and like being able to like deliver things. What is wrong is the ethics and the way that Jeff Bezos built his business. Because nobody earns a billion dollars. You do it by paying underpaying people, by pushing people past their limits, by paying your suppliers poorly and like creating supply chain issues.
And I think that, like, I wish somebody like, I know, I know it exists. I think I just need to find it. But like, yeah, Amazon is a great idea. It's just not built ethically. Yeah. And how many millionaires that have been created by Amazon pails in comparison to how many could have been? Like, really? You could have made a lot more millionaires while building this than what they probably did now? Maybe I'm just talking from a place of I'm not a billionaire.
I've never built a billionaire company, so nothing I say matters until I do it, I guess. But I also think from a place of looking up and saying, like, you know, how can there be that level of disparity and you feel okay in some way. I mean, it's just, it's different. It's difficult. It's difficult. Well, to have me back on the podcast when I'm, when I'm a 900 millionaire and we'll talk and I'll say like, what I'm doing to prevent myself from becoming a billionaire.
Exactly. That just means you're. And whatever that profit is above that, it's like, that's, that's all going to these different places. Right? Like, that's pretty awesome. Yeah. Well, we've talked a bit about ethical capitalism, sustainability, and I kind of wanted to stick in this vein just a little bit longer because it's, it's refreshing to talk about this on our show. We don't. We normally go to Dungeons and Dragons and stay there for a long time. And we can go there too.
We can be later. We'll get there. We'll get to Imagination World too. But I also wanted to ask about your business. You know what, what does made outdoor do around? Because inclusion was one of the first values you said. And I think that's super important, especially for like tailor made stuff. Like. Yes, absolutely. So there is the buzzword accessibility. And I'm talking specifically around price point. And before I give my two cents, I wanted to ask what is, what is how.
How does made outdoor navigate accessibility and a price point for something that's normally close to $1,000. Yeah, we have had conversations about this a lot because like you said, our price point can be up to $1,000, which is pretty well in line with our competitors. We, from like a price perspective, we're definitely exploring additional options. Like we consider ourselves a premium brand.
And so we do think that it's really important to use those premium materials and make our product really well. And we make the product in a factory that is amazing. I know the team have been there. They have an amazing facility. And I think that that all comes into consideration in price. We are looking at different categories, like a more broad market price point. Like, you know, that would have to come in through different product. It wouldn't be with our ski shelves.
We're also looking at the possibility of Made in Canada, which, like, is so far in the future. But that's my dream. I feel really, really strongly about my entire career. I've gotten people saying, like, why isn't it made in Canada? It's like, well, the minimum wage is $18 in Canada and it takes like 12 hours to make a jacket. So if you want to pay $18 an hour for 12 hours plus materials, great. And I would love.
I would love to see if, like, in the future Made could offer that and say, like, okay, you can have this made in Bangladesh for $800 or you can have it made in Canada for 1800. Right. And see if people are, like, ethically willing to put their money where their mouth is. But yeah, it's. It's a. It's a problem that, like, it is tough with price. I think that I. I'm not going to solve the problems of wage inequity right now. No. But I have lots of thoughts on it, and I think that in.
I think our price is. Is okay. I think that other corporations need to pay their people better and the cost of living needs to reduce. But. Yeah, but it's nice. It's nice to hear that.
It's nice to hear that it is a. It's very much a reoccurring discussion for your team because, I mean, that's kind of one of the cool things about small teams is that you get to have those hard conversations and, you know, and revisit it over and over, because in a bigger corporation, someone's going to say, no, be quiet, and, like, shoo you onto a different team so you don't stir the pot anymore. So I think that it's.
It's great that you and your team are talking about it and that it is a value to constantly find. How can we make this better? How can we keep moving the needle? And also, I mean to keep in mind as well that not everyone has to be able to afford your product for you to be considered inclusive. That's just something I think people forget is that, you know, and it's not like a Lamborghini we're selling, which is inaccessible. Right? Like, that's just a high, high, high price point item.
But there are a lot of people out there that will say, well, I would never pay $1,000 for blah, blah, blah, okay? $1,000 is not a lot of money if you're in a situation where you don't have a thousand dollars. There are things you can do to get better, like listening to our podcast. All right. And getting information to get to the point where $1,000 can be found. People can get to $1,000. It is. There's nobody who's surviving a year without making $1,000. Like, it's just perspective, everybody.
So I think a lot of young people who didn't make their own money don't know what it is. Sometimes they get a different perception of what it is to have $1,000. And that might be some of our market. So that's why I'm just wanting to bring this out. However, not everyone has to be able to afford your product for you to be considered inclusive. Okay. So keep that in mind. It's very, very cool that you guys even offer.
I thought it would be more, actually, so I just, I actually thought it was gon be more. But I do love the idea of a tax on the richer people, which is buying even more ethically. It's like, we're ethical and then there's the even more ethical brand, like, way of buying. And you know, I can sleep, whatever. I'm a billionaire, I can sleep on night level. I don't know, whatever it is. Right? Yeah. I think that kind of spending, though, needs a different brand.
It just needs new branding of people being willing to say like, well, this is a way in which to make things more sustainable, more accessible and even better in the future. And again, if you guys make me a millionaire by supporting this podcast and what we're doing, definitely I'm going to be buying the higher price point. I'll put that tax back in. Okay. Yeah, I'd rather give it to a. Private entrepreneur than the government.
I'll just tell you that that's the difference between me and socialists. I would much rather give the money to Cheryl, who I know will spend it properly to make great coats as opposed to giving it to the government. So I was also. I also want to mention there is the like, the like fact, and it's like there's data behind it. I'll let you guys do the figuring that out if you want to put it in your show notes, but
that it is more expensive to be broke. Like, if you're broke and you can afford $50 for a pair of shoes, those shoes are only going to last you for one season. If I, if somebody else can spend $350 on a pair of shoes, they're going to last longer. So I will thank you guys for bringing that up because I actually think that you're right and I think that that's something that the technologies exist now.
Like, you know, there's things like Afterpay and Zazzle where we can, we can add that as a plug in on our site for free and it will make us more accessible because people can afford $50 a month. They may not be able to afford $1,000 downright. And I'll add that to our next show, our next team meeting, because I think you're right. I'm loving this conversation.
And I'm curious, as you continue to grow this, has there been mental shifts that you've had to make or other mental shifts you had to make as now an entrepreneur? Because I don't. Before this, were you an entrepreneur before doing this or was this kind of like one of your first big ventures into entrepreneurship? This is definitely my biggest. I would say that I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. Like I started selling like peaches from.
And not peaches, plums and crab apples from our family. We had like fruit trees on our yard. So I would go and pick the plums and then I would sell buckets on the side of the road. I sold my mom's pies. I sold. I used to make. We used to make skeletons out of milk cartons at Halloween. And we would like make them super gory. We'd use like hot glue to make blood dripping down them and paint it. And we would sell those at Halloween. And I sold hot chocolate.
I was always selling something at the end of our driveway. And then actually was after university, I sold knives through direct sales. So from there kind of was a sole proprietor. Chris and I have that in common. That's how we met. That's how we met. Nice life forever. And. And I. Yeah, so I ran my own office with Cutco. I learned a lot. I did a lot of stuff wrong. I. There's a million things that I would have changed about the way that I ran my office. But I learned a lot.
It was like a crash course. And being an entrepreneur, entrepreneur, that would be the only deviation from my obsessive passion with outerwear is that I pursued selling knives. That's how good a salespeople they are at night at Cutco, by the way, is they sold her out of her passion for a few years to learn how to. That's how good they are. It's worth learning from them. All right. And then, yeah, they're great.
And I actually had a great conversation with another entrepreneur yesterday about that that also was on the Cutco path. Um, and so, yeah, like, I've kind of always been an entrepreneur, but this is definitely like the most legit and most like specific way that I've done it. Like I'm, I'm like really stepping into the founder role now. I think the first like year or two of what we were doing at Made, I was still very focused on product.
Like I just needed to make the product and get it out the door. So I was like talking to the factory, you know, once a week. Most of the time I was building the tech packs or essentially an instruction manual for the factory building systems. And now I've kind of stepped into this more founder role where I'm doing fundraising. So I'm talking like investors, venture capitalists, term sheets, legal teams, warrants. Like I'm in it in the founder side of things.
It's much more intense than I ever anticipated. I'm starting a, an accelerator program called the Movement 51 Founders Lab. Next month we're going to be on Dragon's Den, which is so wild. So yeah, it's like, it's, it's a whole different mindset shift because I, I've always considered myself to be an entrepreneur and now I'm like seeing that on a whole different scale. Like we're
not building a small business. We're like, we want to build a billion dollar brand and if you're going to do that, you have to do it very differently. And there are tried and true methods and steps to do. I now like when the SVB Silicon Valley bank crashed, that was like the biggest news of my week.
I was obsessively refreshing every news page because that affected our investors that we were talking to and how was that going to affect us and how is it going to make raising money harder and, and now I just have this like totally different mindset that's like more of an overview of a corporation which is just so much bigger than I thought it was going to be. And it's made me bigger, I think. What are some of the like day to day the habits that you used to be doing versus now?
Like what are the day to day habits of a, of a person in your role? Yeah, Actually, I feel very strongly about this, Chris. I come from a background with Cutco that is very product development focused. I would call it toxic product development or personal development. Sorry. And I think there's a lot of talk out there about being a CEO, being a founder, being a business person where it's like I get up at 5am and I have my green juice smoothie and then I go to the gym for an hour and I meditate
and I journal and all these things. I have. I have generalized anxiety disorder. I've gone through a lot of family trauma in the last two, three years. I lost my dad to cancer after a very, very challenging battle where I was his primary caregiver and I was visiting him every single day in hospital. So I had to give myself a lot of grace and I had to create a way to do this that works for me and doesn't trigger any of my anxiety. So I actually stopped setting alarms.
I don't wake up early. I'm. I'm a founder. I will say this, I'll put my hand up. I am a founder of a corporation and I sleep till 8:30 every day. My goal is to like be on the Fortune 500 list and be like, I don't wake up at 5am I sleep in because sleep is super important. And I think I've operated in a sleep deprivation for decades. When I was running my office, I was waking up at 4 in the morning. I was doing the miracle morning by how Elrod. And I was doing it at four in the morning.
I would wake up and I would read and run and journal and all these things and I made myself sick. And I know that I'm never going to be able to do maid if I do that. So I do everything I can to not do that. So if I'm waking up at 8:30, I'm going to wake up, have a coffee and sit with my dogs, chat with my fiance and then start work at 9 if I have a meeting. 10. Some days I work with my schedule and what feels right for me. I also have adhd, so I'm kind of all over the place.
This one never happens on our, on our podcast. We never, we never take nature. I wanted to just like, yes, I had something to say about this. Obviously the, the idea of finding that rhythm is so important because, I mean, the, for example, the Instagram algorithm has found me and knows that I love to read personal growth books. And so then it thinks I really love hustle culture too. And like the toxic level of Hustle Culture. Because there's varying degrees. Yeah, right.
There's varying degrees of this like hustle mentality. And I think that there is finding that balance for the individual. I mean, something that is a. Was a great lesson for me not too long ago, a few years ago, was the idea of you can take what these other people are saying that might be considered toxic and you can try it like, like what you are saying, what you did, you tried it and you realized that doesn't work for me.
But you know what does? X, Y and Z. And for me it's like I'm now starting to wake up at 5am and actually go to be asleep by 10. And I'm actually really starting to like it. It's a very recent development, but it's like I am finally doing the thing. I may not like immediately go exercise, but at least I get to get a lot of other stuff done before the world really demands a lot from me.
And it's interesting to hear for you that your priority in the morning is time to yourself, time with your loved ones before you really get going at your day. And that's awesome. Yeah. Also have like the cutest dog in the world. He's like just down here. He's 15 pounds, he loves to snuggle,
he sleeps with us in bed. And when, and like when I wake up in the morning, I can sometimes spend like an hour or two, just like not even on my phone, just cuddling this dog because he is so loving and affectionate and it's so good for my mental health. And then the other thing that I wanted to say on that is like, yeah, like you can try those things.
And I just encourage people that if you're going to try those things, keep in mind that like, if it doesn't work for you, that doesn't mean you failed. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It doesn't mean that you suck. It doesn't mean you are not doing the things you need, like, doing things right. Like, I, I had to learn that lesson like the really, really hard way where like I spent so long beating myself up because I wasn't waking up at 4 in the morning and I wasn't doing things.
And then I realized like, over time and with therapy, a lot of therapy, that I now do those things when I can. So when I feel like I have the space for it and I do them because I know they feel good and I like them. Like, I like reading, I like journaling, I like riding my bike. Like, those things make me happy and make me feel good. And I do them because of that. I don't do them because they're on some checklist of being an entrepreneur.
If you were to give advice to people who are in that stepping stone of becoming their own nerdpreneur now, having gone down some of this path yourself, what advice would you give people who are on that cusp of, like, should I pursue this passion or should I think about quitting my job to go after something? Just quit your job. You're never going to fire yourself. Like, I think that, like, the main thing of, like, successful entrepreneurs
is that they just don't stop. Like, I'm not gonna fire myself even if, like, me doesn't keep going. Like, I know that I'm always gonna figure it out and I'm always gonna have my back. And I think that, like, job security is kind of a myth. Like, we all saw that during the pandemic. Like, I saw people that had been at the company I was at for 30 years or 18 years get fired, no notice, with two weeks severance after 18 years. Which is. Which was like. Like, it was heartbreaking. I saw.
I saw the corporation, like, reduce people's salaries by 20%. I was making less after five years there than I was when I signed the contract. Like, it's like, you're not going to fire yourself. Nobody's going to care about you as much as you care about yourself. Frank has. Yeah. So then what about the people who don't have, say, the safety net of some financial safety net? What kind of advice would you give them if say. So the response I think of specifically is, well, that's a great idea
of just quitting my job, but I can't. Like, I'm going paycheck to paycheck, and I'm trying to get the skills to level myself up so I can get more money. But right now that's not the case. I would love to quit my job. What other advice do you have for me? Yep, that's very valid. I agree. I was super lucky. We had a little bit of money to do that. There are options. There are a couple programs that I would recommend to people.
Specifically a program called FuturePreneur. If nobody has heard of it so far on the podcast, or if you guys haven't, definitely something you guys should talk about or apply for for yourselves. So FuturePreneur is a government program, I believe it's sponsored by the government. You can get $60,000 as a loan, a low interest loan for your business. It also comes with mentorship. They also have a side hustle program. So you can get. I think it's $10,000 to start a side hustle.
Depending on what your Nerdpreneur passion is, that can go really far or far at all. It went to our first purchase order, so it was gone in a day. Yeah. But yeah, there are options and I would recommend looking at it like there's tons of programs out there for people who are thinking of becoming an entrepreneur entrepreneur who are at the idea stage. There's tons of funding available. You just have to find it. And there are options for like, like Community Futures is another really good one.
Especially if you are from a diverse background or a underrepresented background, there are options and if that's something that you really want to do, look into them and find a way. Because, like, why not? What, what there was Future Preneurs or Future Entrepreneurs. It's. Yeah, futurepreneur and Community Futures. So it'll be a specific, a specific segment based on where you're at. So there's one in Squamish, there's one in the Okanagan. They're all over bc.
I'm not sure about the rest of Canada. Futurepreneur is Canada wide. It has. It's a great program with great support. We have a mentor through FuturePreneur and then there's accelerators and pre accelerators. It's going to take a little bit of. After this whole conversation about not hustling, it might take a little bit of hustling to get your funding so that you can quit your job. But I think it's worth it. Yeah. I mean, entrepreneurship,
there is going to be hustle. I mean, as you have some hustle, you got to have some hustle, but it be on your own terms. Hey, nerdpreneurs. Chris. Coming at you. You may have just been wondering, how do I get into be a supporter of this podcast? Well, we use Patreon and we call all of our Patreon subscribers board members and they are part of the awesome Nerdpreneur board. Not only will board members receive. Receive extra content, extended interviews,
and our undying love. In the future, they'll also be invited to our Discord community as well as monthly staff meetings where they can ask us questions boardroom style and have an influence not only on who we interview, but what we actually ask them in upcoming shows. Sounds pretty cool, right? Well, if you want to support us, go to patreon.com and sign up to Be a member of the board today. Now back to the episode. Well, how are we feeling? Should we. Any more questions, Frank?
No. Yeah, let's go ahead. Let's do some random rolls. You got your D100? I do. Look at that. I'm prepared. I specifically chose a color special for you guys that matches. Is that like Jolly Rancher blue? Yeah, it's like the bear turquoise, right? Yeah. Actually, your logo is purple. I was doing it, Craig. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, well, we also have a logo that's got the same blue in it, too, so there you go. Perfect. Yeah, that's on point. So, yeah, we're going to do random rolls.
These are less serious questions, more fun, some of them downright silly. So go ahead and roll. Roll, roll, roll. Okay. Ooh. 2020. If you had one day left to live, how would you spend it? Oh, what season is it? Let's say it's now summertime. Okay. I would wake up in the morning, snuggle my dog, because that's the best. And I would go on a road trip with my fiance and hopefully do some sort of hike. Preferably it would also involve listening to our favorite comedians, Auntie Donna.
And I think that we would. A little bit of that, A little bit of the good time stuff and. I don't know, out in nature, just. Yeah, I just like, I. I love a good. Just like, chill day with my fiance. We're so, like, annoying and in love that, like, it. We're like, best friends and I just wouldn't spend time with him. God, you really cracked the secret on life. You're doing the schedule you want. You've got the partner that brings you silly happy love. You've got the dog that gets.
Gives you the cutest snuggles. Like how. That is just such a full and wonderful sounding life. Life is good right now. Oh, I'm so happy for you. Thanks. It's amazing. Wow. This is one of the reasons we love that question, because it's like, an intense question at first, but then so many nerdpreneurs are, like, in alignment with, like, what they're doing and have figured out somewhat where their passions lie.
That it's such a. A lovely answer to hear after when it's like, you know, these are the things that are really important. So thank you for sharing. Let's roll a couple more. All right, 63. All right. This one keeps coming up. I like it. Somehow 63 gets rolled a lot. Would you rather die from Gary Gygax's Zombie Eating your brain or being crushed under a ton of dice? Being crushed under a ton of dice. Is there a reason why you don't want to meet Gary Gygax? I don't like zombies. I would like.
I would prefer not to get bit by a zombie. That's like. I have a very pretty. I have a pretty solid zombie survival plan, I think. And that's another podcast. And I like to do this thing called Gravity Blanket where I make my fiance lay on me and just crush the soul out of my body. So I don't know, I feel like if I was crushed by a ton of dice, it would be like a small moment where I'd be like, oh, yes. Yeah, that's great. That's good. Perfect. Let's do rapid fire. Questions?
Rapid fire. Yeah. So we're gonna. These are even faster. I'll start it off with. Yeah, I'll start it off with. Let's see here. All right. Jumping right into it. That classic game. Fuck, marry, Kill Iron Man, Thor, Captain America. Oh, Mary. Captain America, Fuck Thor. Kill Iron Man. Yep. Classic classic. DC or Marvel? Marvel. Right now. Right now. Right now. They've got you right now. This is rapid fire, though. What is the best munchie for you? Ooh, nuts. Nuts, yeah. Like mix nuts.
Like trail mix. Mixed nuts. Nice. Zombie apocalypse. Weapon of choice? Sewing shears. I have a lot of them. Ah. Oh, and they're bullets. You'll be that character from Mystery Men that threw out forks or. Yeah, those forks. And instead you'll be throwing out. Throwing shears or clothing shears? No, they're throwing shears now. Yeah, now they are. Yeah. Last thing you. Wait. Oh, pork chop. What is your go to karaoke song? I will survive. Nice. What Hogwarts house are you in? Gryffindor.
How many cats is too many cats? Two. One. Really? Okay, perfect. Awesome. That was the correct answer. Star Trek or Star Wars? Ooh, Trek. Right now. Right now. Yeah, I'm actually watching Star Trek for the first time. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Where are you in it? Where are you in it? I think. Well, we're watching Next Generation right now, and I think we're on season five. Oh, you're getting good. Yeah, yeah, it's good. And, like, I'm just, like. I'm, like, so sad for my past
self that I haven't watched it, so I'm. Okay. I know this is rapid fire, but I will say I, for the first time, am watching Star Trek, Doctor who and the Simpsons. As an adult, I was. I never watched Any of those shows growing up. And I am both simultaneously so sad for my younger self that I did not get to see them. But I'm also, like, I am so deeply enthralled as an adult, and I, like, understand the concepts and, like, get it. So it's, like, amazing. I'm so happy.
Which doctor are you on right now? First I'm like. I, like, literally just started. Did you go all the way back to. I'm starting from day one. Whoa. I haven't even done that well. I just figured, like, I should start from the beginning. I didn't want to start at the beginning because I hear it's painful and it's, like, the production quality. But if it you. I mean, it's something you said. You and your fiance enjoy kind of watching that sometimes. Not the best production quality.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's great. Sometimes you just watch it because you need to watch it, you know? Exactly. No, I don't. I don't. Sorry. Things because, like, I feel like I didn't. I didn't watch a lot of films or, like, really know how to, like, I didn't really. My fiance makes fun of me. He says, like, I didn't really like movies, and I feel like he kind of taught me how to like movies and, like, enjoy movies and watching them. I used to just, like, watch movies to, like,
turn my brain off. And I feel like now I'm, like, really enjoying, like, watching and discerning, like, different things. No, that's great. I mean, I can't turn my brain off when I watch it. I'm constantly critiquing the movies, which is why bad movies are so hard for me. Yeah, but you're also, like. You said you're an actor, right? So that's like a. That's a thing, too. It's like, being involved in it is different. Chris and I were in the industry for a while. Yeah.
And now I make videos. Yeah. As my day job. I'm curious, who is your favorite character on TNG since you're watching it? I love Riker. Riker fan. Riker's my favorite, too. We plan to be Riker and Picard for Halloween. And I'm going to be Picard. And I'm going to wear a bald cap. And I'm really excited. That is awesome. I love this idea. Very cool. Most dangerous job, in your opinion? Underwater welding. Yes. That's. Yes, that's scary. Favorite three pizza toppings.
Ham and pineapple and cheese, obviously. But I actually can no longer eat pizza because I Have allergies. So you've just fermented me. Oh, okay. What superpower would you want? Flying 100. Oh, I thought you were gonna say to eat pizza. Would you. Do you fear the AI or embrace the AI? Embrace the AI. Yeah. On record. We all gotta say that for when it takes over. Yeah. Thank you. Google Skynet. Daddy. Yes. Favorite fiction book? I love a book series called the Belgariad by David Eddings.
One of my all time favorites. I read it when I was like 13 and I've read it like 15 times. The Belgariat is amazing. I read David Eddings as well when I was a kid. He was awesome. Really set the tone for my preferences. 100%. Yeah. I still refer to things. I actually, I took the MacGuffin, the Sapphire Rose, and incorporated it into my first D and D campaign. It was a different magic item, but it was also like. I just loved the concept of it.
One of my first D and D characters was based on Pulgara. And I then made my like for Christmas one year. I wanted to teach my mom to play D and D and I made her a character based on Polgara and, like, her personality. And then my. My boyfriend at the time did like, artwork for it and we made this, like, big painting of, like, her as, like, Polgara. It was like, really cool. I don't actually know if we ever gave it to her. You got your mom into D and D?
Yeah, my mom loves D and D. She doesn't get to play it often enough, but, like, she's always really jealous that I get to play because she feels the same. Like, it's like a. It's like a fantasy novel and she loves fantasy novels. She got me into fantasy fantasy novels, so. Oh, that's great. That is. That is cool. I got my dad and sister into it as well, and. But they don't have time for that normally. It's only when I'm around. What subscription can't you live without?
None. I just recently got rid of, like, almost all my subscriptions and did it for, like, financial reasons because I'm starting a business and I was like, trying to reduce the budget. And then over the last, like, couple weeks, I've realized, like, I'm okay. Yes. Amen. I mean, I added one recently and I am like, I wake up in cold sweats, like, oh, did I cancel it? Oh, wait, no, I'm still using it. Right. Okay. Now I want to ask you that question. What subscription is this?
It's Paramount Plus. Oh, yeah. For Star Trek. Right. Right. Specifically, of course, it's Star Trek related. Yeah. All right, let's see. Last one from me would be, what's the difference between a nerd and a geek? Oh, I feel like nerds, like I talked about earlier, are like a special interest, like something that they're really passionate or excited about. And I feel like geeks are just, like, really smart. I feel like geeks are like math, science smart, book smart.
And they might be a nerd about the thing that they're a geek about, but I don't think that. I feel like it's like toads and frogs. Like, not all of them are, like, the same. None of them are both. It's like you can be a geek and you can be a nerd, and you can be a geek. You can be a nerd about what you're a geek about. Yeah. Squares and rectangles. Exactly. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Cheryl, this has been so great and so much fun. Where can people support you?
Find some made apparel and, yeah, ideally support you guys. Yeah. We are made outdoor on all the social medias on LinkedIn. We're made custom apparel. And if you want to follow me, I'm not that entertaining on social media, but it's just Cheryl Lebar on all the socials. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Yeah, this has been so much fun. I love the different directions we took, and I am very grateful that you were on our show. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
We went on a on a real winding journey. It was great. Yeah, we did. Thanks, everyone. And as always, keep it nerdy. Thanks for listening, nerdpreneurs. Cheryl wanted me to let you know that if you're listening to this and it's near Black Friday, they probably got some great Black Friday deals on right now@madeoutdoor.com and even if it's not Black Friday, they probably still got something going on. So go check that out.
We spent another 30 minutes with Cheryl talking to her about her story business tips, and we get one of my favorite of all time random role questions. Come up on whether or not we live in a simulation. Discussion turns. Awesome. Highly recommend this. Go to patreon.com forward/nerdpreneur to sign up as a board member today. Thanks for listening and as always, keep it nerdy.