Mental Health May: Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation

photo shoot in my kitchen. Everybody was like it was so funny because people were like, this is the best thing you've ever done, and I'm like, really, this was shot on an iPhone and like the lighting is off, but thank you. I mean, but that's the Is there something to like the grittiness? You know, like how some people they you know, they don't want everything on pro there, you know, they like the amateur stuff, you know, and

it adds a level. And also like phones now are so good with the right lighting, you can almost get like a slight DSLR look to it. Yeah, so I agree, I agree with them. They are smacking these uh, these images that you've been I just want everyone to feel good. I hope that I and people have written me, but I really and you do too, like we're so body positive. I just really hope people, especially as we age, just

like really stepping into owning themselves. I think. Yeah, And it was like, you should just just decide to be hot and then just act accordingly, like it's just you. It's just something you can decide because there's tons of people that tell us that we're not attractive, and it's like, okay, but I'm going to decide to be like I am and all my friends are like, we just decided on it, and so I think you can just off great from

that energy. Yeah, and I agree. I think there's something to the energy of, you know, that confidence of being like, you know, I'm hot, because who like really honestly, if like if everyone but the person that you're into thinks you're ugly, then who cares? You know it really you know, and when you really put it that way, you know who cares, and you know it's it's not even more of it. Well, I was going to say, speak we always talk what we're seeking out about and I've been

watching We're Here on HBO. So it follows Eureka, Bob and Angela from RuPaul's Drag Race as they take people and put and put them in drag and they also take heteronormative men who have in the past been homophobic who are now trying to come to terms with that when they were growing up. Uh And anyways, I mean, I could guarantee you people have told them that they're ugly. People still tell them that they're ugly, and and so it's just like it's just something that they've they They're like,

I'm hot. I know I'm hot, and I've accepted it, and you know, I just that's what I want to put out there because I think people are like, well, it's easy for you to say. It's like, no, I

have seventy seven thousand followers. I can guarantee like at least a thousand people have told me I'm ugly, and I can believe no, it's true, and it's like, you know, people will be like, well, I think people don't realize that because you know, someone else might be like, well, people have told me that I'm like, but have you had three thousand people tell you that because kind of different. And when you can read YouTube comments of someone you know making fun of your face and it gets eight

hundred likes, that will affect anyone's head. And so but I highly recommend watching that. It's just so amazing to see people. It's a it's a cultured community that's wrapped in love and acceptance. It's people of all different body sizes, all different backgrounds, just really embracing themselves. And I love when they get all done up, like when the guys to like the the guys who are kind of like say and offish about it, they get all done up

and they're like, how do you feel? And they're like, man, I feel sexy as well. Like they're just so feeling themselves in the makeup and the wigs and they're just like, oh, I get why you do this because you just feel so good. Yeah. So definitely check it out on HBO. Steal someone's log in if you have to. Yeah, my, my, my geek out is very different. Uh. And uh, what I'm geeking out about is I just ordered the Criterion collection of the show Your Era um of Godzilla. Uh,

and it's so big, you know. I ordered it off Criterion. I didn't know, Like I knew it was going to be in book form, but I didn't know it was going to be gigantic. So it's sitting up next to all my figures and I can't wait to just work work my way through it because I did just like

the other day watch King of the Monsters. God's a little King of the Monsters of the newer American one, and you know, you know, the same same same fields as the first one, where it's like, you know, all the kaiju stuff, great, the human element, let's get rid of it. We don't need it. We don't need it.

And it's a very Western thing, which is why you'll watch the uh if you watch the Japanese version, like the human element in it is very small, unless, of course, it's like I talked about this on the Godzilla podcast what Haley man siny, where it's like there's typically like uh two to three types of Godzilla where it's like Godzilla is fighting other Kaiju, and then there's Godzilla versus humanity uh and and and the Godzilla movie, um, both of them kind of tries to split the difference between

the two, but you can't really do that because like those are two separate things. You know, if it's if it's Godzilla versus humanity, then you're you're kind of dealing with Okay, now you have the human element, but it's also like a movie where there's a lot of loss and you're trying to cover because Godzilla, of course is a analogy for the atomic bomb, so like that's why

it's always been that way. But if it's god Zilla versus the monsters, there's needs to be so little human interaction and less of them, like we're gonna help God's all out. No you're not. These are giant monsters. But why why are we so obsessed with bullets working against giant monsters? Like we just need to prove that there's a reason we're spending this much money on our military. Uh no, it's gonna be, it's not gonna it's not gonna work. But anyway, I still liked it, still enjoyed it.

It was a fun one. So check that out. If Yeah, these are all things both things that we mentioned that can be considered self care, which is good because this month we're doing the mental health may um yes, and today we are covering continuing with our month looking into the nerdiness that is brain science and and therapy treatment as technology changes and grows. This week we are doing MS,

which is transcranial magnetic stimulation. It's nerdy as hell. Yeah, I mean, I want to, like, before we even dive into this, just kind of talk about this is something you've brought up before. This is also something that you've mentioned other folks of note have tried out. So you know, uh, let's talk about your relationship to it, because you actually have a personal relationship versus you know, anyone else. Yeah, So it's something that I did. It was recommended by

my therapist and my psychiatrist. It is essentially used for treatment resistant depression, which means that you have tried prescription medication, multiple prescription medications that have not quite worked for you. I having a chronic illness and very sensitive to medication, so a lot of them. If it's like may cause side effects for me, it will It's like go ahead and put it will cause side of and so um those and yeah, and so it's different. It's typically covered

by insurance, which we're gonna get into. We're going to get into what it is and how it works. But I just want to stay off top. It's typically covered by insurance, but they normally required that you have had failed attempts at antidepressants, which means like I did well beutan for months, it didn't work. I did go off for munch it didn't work like stuff like that. And for me, I think my insurance wanted me to have four and I had like three, and I was unwilling

to do another round. I'm like, I'm not going to put myself to another round just to do this. So I had the funds at the time to do six weeks of TMS. You go in every day you go. It is a commitment. Um. So I went in at least Monday through Friday every single day in the morning, um, and did a round of magnetic stimulation on my head. And yes, Neil Brennan is another their person who's been really vocal about it. I think we actually have a clip that we can play for people kind of like

just talks a little bit about it. This TMS thing, transparanial magnetic stimulation covered by Blue Cross. Huh yeah, uh so yeah, that's what like it's it's it was really really good. Like I for a lot of my life, I felt like I had a All right, I had like I had like a thing like it almost felt like a metal weight, like a bit of like five pound weight on my upper left forehead, my left and then so I went to this, whoa dude, that sound is like an mri I sound. Yeah, that's what it is.

It is. Yes, it's basically the same exact magnet as an m r I. Hey, yeah, they put it on your head. It's pretty simple. The first time they measure it. They have to get to like the exact spot. There's there's another video where my finger is pulsing that you'll enjoy And what is it doing to you? Like, what's the benefit? Uh, it's basically magnetizing and electrifying. Hey, it's waking up basically dead uh synapses according to them. Really yeah, so it's it's waking up dead synapses and uh waking

up dead waking them up. So there dormant, that's what they say. We went We went to the on that same on that same recording with Joe Rogan. He talked about doing ketamine treatment and we went to the same doctor and we both did not like it. So I'm happy that it's worked for people. But TMS is something that we both have done that is really helpful. And I talked to Neil about it when I was doing it, so he's another person that has been super super vocal

about about how it's helped him. Nice. Nice, So let's talk a little bit about what exactly it is in the history of it. Yeah, so transcranial magnetic stimulation. It's non invasive form of brain stimulation in which a changing magnetic field is used to cause electric current at a specific area of the brain through electro magnetic induction. It's like, what does that mean? That's a lot, that's a lot of info we're That reminds me of like it sounds

like Michael Scott trying to explain something in the office. Yeah, where it's just like the or that scene with Ben Stiller trying to pray and meet the Fockers. But he's like, these three things we pray to see the more dear lead. It's just like you're just making up words. Is even going on? Yeah, um, we're gonna get fully into that.

But I did want to tackle the history of TMS. UM. So yeah, you know the history is Luigi Galvani undertook research on the effects of electricity on the body in the late eighteenth century and laid the foundation for the field of electro physiology. And then in the eighteen thirties, Michael Faraday discovered that an electrical current at a corresponding magnetic field and the changing one can induce its counterpart so work, so they worked to directly stimulate the human

brain with electricity. Um they started that work in the late eighteen hundreds and then by the nineteen thirties uh Italian physicians uh sir Letti and Binny have developed electro convulsive therapy, also known as ect. ECT became widely used to treat mental illness, and ultimately it was overused and

soon it just became a u as a panacea. And this led to backlash in the nineteen seventies because I think this is when they were doing like the more like electro shock therapy stuff that is that was that was not as I guess we'll say, thought out. But then in the nineteen h and nineteen eighty Merton and Morton, the you know, they they had to team up, team up just because of their name. They're like, well, Merten

and Morton, we got to be a squad. So then in nineteen eighty, Merten and Morton successfully used transcranial electrical stimulation to stimulate the motor cortex. However, this process was very uncomfortable, and subsequently, Anthony T. Barker began to search for an alternative to t e S. They began exploring the use of magnetic fields to alter electrical signaling within the brain, and the first stable TMS devices were developed

in nineteen eighty five. So that's not too long though, that's you know, you know, three years before me and Danny started walking this earth. Uh. But they were originally uh, they were originally intended as a diagnostic to research devices, with evaluation of their therapeutic potential being a later development. In the United States, FDA first approved TMS devices in October of two thousand and eight. So this is fresh. Yeah, But what's fascinating is it's been out for over a

decade and yet it's still not commonly used. It's still not commonly prescribed. Um. Do you think it also, you know, just as a more general discussion, do you think it's because you know, like my, my, you are have been the person who have kind of taught me about t MS. T MS and before you brought it up, I never heard about it, but even just the description until like you were like, no, this is how it works. It does seem like I think with because of the way

electroshock therapy was used. I think it makes it harder for people to like wrap their brains around it. Do you feel that way or do you think it's just people not enough people know about it. I think it's because and I was watching, you know, preparing for this, I was watching psychs talk about it, and I think it's because they're not trained in it. I think a lot of times traditional if you look at professors that have been around for decades now, this was not in

their wheelhouse. And so it's the same thing that we see in the chronic illness community dealing with autoimmune disorders. There's so much emerging science, and yet if you it's your responsibility, I would say as a doctor to continue to learn. You're never done learning. And good doctors know that, but not all of them operate that way. And so I think the first line of defense is always prescription medication,

and which I totally understand and get um. But when that's not working, it's normally not always in their text book. I feel like when I was being treated for autoimmune, for even my hashimotos, it was like, oh, you just take a pill, you take a thyroid pill, and I'm like, well, this isn't working. I need other I need alternative treatments on top of this. And so if they're not constantly

searching for new information, I think that's why. And and they talked about that openly, and some of the interviews that I watched is that it's just that's not necessarily not all psykes do t ms or recommend to ms. Also, let's talk about the pharmaceutical industry because that's a big thing. And I go, if you're going to disappear next week, don't talk about it. But it's so interesting because I used to work, um one of my early jobs is they used to be a receptionist at a doctor's office.

And I remember every week like it was either like a Wednesday or Thursday. It was real good because we had we we wouldn't have to bring lunch because some pharmaceutical company is gonna come and they buy us lunch.

And it took me a while to realize that they're essentially trying to butter the office up so the doctor can specifically use They're like, they're like, um, prescription of it that way when you really think of it from the inside out that way, you're like, then then that when you think of it, they're not prescribing you based on like necessarily what they feel is best. I think that the doctors have the best one in mind, especially

the one that I worked for. I will say you totally was like, yeah, they're just trying to get me to buy it, but I like what I like. But I'll always say yes to free lunch, so shout out to him. But um, but other doctors, you know, if you're you know, if you're if you're getting wind and dine and someone's really taking care of you quote unquote, uh, then now you're prescribing based on that and not necessarily

what is best. And it's funny that you said that, how you're like, good doctors are staying ahead of the curve because you know, it's very similar in a way to like, um, computer science and I T But the only difference is if you don't stay ahead of the curve, you just become obsolete, Like you're not a good idea if you're not constantly learning where doctors if there's so much you know, history, medical history that they can kind of get by by being like, no, this is work

for the longest that we're gonna try this. Unfortunately, though, if that doesn't work, then you're kind of just yeah, it's it's the whole thing that that could be a whole long discussion that I'm sure Danny has lots lots and lots of thoughts, because you've got a multiple on whammy. You got the whammy of having chronic illness, which is one of which is hard to get the doctors to even understand you. Then as a woman, it's hard to get doctors to believe you, and as a woman of color,

it's even like that. It's just like three strikes of doctors just not taking your word for it. And the closest I've got to that, which in the one time it happened, which it was really frustrating, was like when I was at the dentist and I was like, hey, it's not numb enough, and because I'm this big black dude, they're like, no, you're good, and just almost when I almost jumped out the chair and knocked and knocked him out, and then not trying to hit him. I'm just like

it jerked because he did go. He finally did it. But it's like I had to experience pain for you to listen to me. You just you just were so sure. It's so the frustration is real, and it is. I was going to say, as far as staying ahead of the curve, there is a huge community on Reddit as when it comes to electric magnetic stimulation. Now I will say, please do not do this. There is an entire you know what I'm gonna say. If you people have built their own UM and I watched videos on it and

a lot of people swear by it. Here's the thing that with with the placement, which we're going to get into, because these are specifically placed, as Neil said, they have to measure your head and place it in a certain specific area. If you mess up that area and you're just a little bit off, it can make it worse. It can make things worse for you. Um, you can be exhausted, you could be more depressed, you could like it's just not just go and get it done, especially

now that most insurances will cover it. I want to say, um, since insurance companies are shady, have no problem saying this UM and and that is when they say when my insurance company was like, oh you have to have four failed treatments, it's um self self proclaimed or whatever that is. I messed up by telling them that I didn't. But they don't go back and check because I don't even remember some of my doctors that I had years ago. So that's just a little heads up for people, UM

that they don't they don't check. If you've had for now, people are gonna be like, that's irresponsible. Whatever. Again, being someone that has a chronic illness, sometimes you have to play the game because the game is being played on you. So speaking on that, we have to go and take a quick break. I want to say before we hop into more, I am not a licensed professional. I am just a patient who has been in the mental health

care UH community for years now. And I also, as you know, if I worked in cardiac rehab, so I did actually work in a hospital. My my training is in kinesiology. That's what I have. My bachelor's from Texas and Texas. I like that you specify that it's from Texas, Like I got my bachelor's from Texas well. Well, the University of Texas is very hard to get into. They only take the top eight if you are in Texas.

If you go to a public school in Texas, you get automatic exception uh into the school if you're in the top eight percent of your class. So it is the one of the best business schools, one of the best um premed pro like. It's just it's a really great school. Also has a ton of money that's funneled into it for sports. That makes us a lot of money and all the Nike and Gatorade and whatever like.

So anyways, um, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna hop into more TMS right after this we are back. We're still talking about TMS diving into some nerdy brain science and so how does this work? What was all the gogglly goop that I was talking about just throwing around electrodes and and magnets and brain um. So, essentially, an electromagnetic coil is placed against your scalp near your forehead.

Now they literally measure this. Um. They actually for me, if I remember when they were doing it, they kind of test it. It's supposed to make your finger twitch. I think specifically you're either your index or your it was supposed to make one of your fingers twitch, and then they knew that they hit the right spot for you, which on everybody is different depending on your head. And

I have a huge, a huge head. Um. So the electromagnetic painlessly delivers a magnetic pulse that stimulates nerve cells in the region of your brain involved in mood control and depression. So what was fascinating to me, Neil, I think in if we had continued that Joe Rogan interview, he I think actually did it for thirty minutes, which

is how they used to do it. Now they've had advancements where I only did it for three minutes, So I him in like I was in and out within fifteen minutes, like they strapped the thing on my head. They made sure it was in the correct placement. Once they have the correct placement for you, they keep your cap like with your name on it, with your placement, so they can just put it on your head every

time and check. They still checked and made sure that my finger would twitch, you know that they had in the right spot, especially me having as much hair as I do. UM. So yeah, it was only three minutes, two to three minutes, I think, and What was fascinating is they did one side for depression and then they did another side for anxiety, and my anxiety was only fifteen seconds, so they would just do that for fifteen seconds and then stop. So it's different for everyone depending

on where you're at. Though the biology of y TMS works isn't completely understood. This is from the Mayo Clinic. The stimulation appears to impact how the brain is working, which in turn seems to ease depression symptoms and improve mood. Now, the difference between Neil and I that I talked to him about is he was also on medication while he did it and I was not, So I was going raw in. But a lot of people at that sounded aggressive.

My my psych was like, it would be more beneficial if you were on an antidepressant, so it just raises your baseline. But for me, because of the side effects of the antidepressant, it was not. I would rather have just done t m S. T MS was my antidepressant. Yeah, like Neil and Joe were saying, it's similar to an MRI. The magnetic field is about the same strength as an m r I and the pulse generally reaches no more

than five centimeters into the brain. Um, you don't have It's not I don't want to say it's painful, but it is. It does feel like if someone had a long nail and was repeatedly tapping your head, it gets sore. So the next day, what what were you gonna say? That sounds intense. Yes, it gets sore because you're doing it repeatedly. So the first day it feels like, Okay, someone just tapping my head, But if someone taps the same spot on your head, by the fifth day, it's

going to be a little sore. However, it's not, you know, it's not it's not like super painful or anything. The I would say a common side effect that I never really had is having a headache after that's common, and then also fatigue that I did have. Because you're stimulating your brain, you're kind of it's kind of like if you were to do an intense like do you get headaches or do you feel fatigued after your have like an intense gaming session where it feels like you were

using your brain too? Oh yeah, definitely yeah, and you're just like, oh, what's cool about tea mass is that it's not just also depression it seems like they've shown, you know, potential with neurologic conditions such as Alzheimer's uh amatrophic lateral soleurosis, persistent vegetative states, epilepsy, stroke related disabilit of these, tonitus, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia, and traumatic brain energy

traumatic brain injury. So this is you know, kind of remarkable that it's pretty great, and I'm almost excited to see where it goes from here because you know, like, like it said, FDA approved it in two thousand and eight, so we're about twelve years in, so you know what, what's more to come? You know. Yeah, it's actually very common with PTSD, so I would say it's up there. The amount of people who are prescribed it for depression,

I would say PTSD is also up there um. And for me it did as far as how I felt after, I felt immediately better right after, but then that kind of fades away, which is why I would say the typical treatment is about six weeks UM, with people returning for boosters as my my cycle would call them, like after you know, it's supposed to last for the year, but some people needed after and needed again after three months after doing a six week treatment they need, you know,

three to six months. They need to come back in. What I did want to say is the cost, which we're still dealing with. I mean, drugs treatment in general is just absurd in this country. Um. My people worked with me. I think it was for six weeks. I think I paid like four grand. Um. And again this is somebody that has that needed it. It says a single t MS session for depressive disorders averages about three fifty dollars, and you're doing five sessions of a week.

A full course of treatment could cost between six thousand to twelve thousand, depending on the number of treatments. Again, a lot of insurances do cover it. However, it should be the same as my depression medicine, right, My depression medicine I think is like ten to twenty bucks. And this is technically a depressive treatment for depression. Um, it is wild that it would cost that much. Especially at a lot of these psych places. They have the machine already,

they bought the machine, they have it. Um. Most of them are willing to work with your budget in some type of way because again they're just they want to help. Um. We are lucky to be in Los Angeles where there are multiple TMS places I know other states. Is probably not because again it's still relatively I don't want to say it's new, it's just not as accepted in common. Okay, let's talk about your what it's like when you go in?

Yes please? So. Um, So, before treatment begins, your doctor will need to identify the best place to put the magnets on your head and the best dose of magnetic energy for you. So that's another thing. So Neil's dose is going to be different than my dose. Again, they're placing it, they're trying to find the right spot, and they will keep moving it around. They're kind of like

little zaps on your head. I like to think of it as like the pimples zapper or whatever, Like it's just a little up, little zap on your head and they'll keep so, they'll put it in the spot that they think it should go, and they keep turning it up again until your finger moves. Um. But I have had other areas of my body twitch like I think maybe like my shoulder I can touch once and like yeah,

um yeah. So your your doctor will determine the amount of magnetic energy needed by increasing the magnetic dose until your fingers or hands twitch. That's known as your motor threshold, and that's used as a reference point in determining the right dose. So during each treatment, I'm gonna see I know Neil posted a picture of himself. I'm gonna I have a picture of myself. Um, so I'll see about posting it. It's really a vulnerable thing, you know, when

you're doing true. I think I sent you a picture. Did you remember that if you when I had like yeah, yeah, it was why I think I said to to Roy with Jr. Because we had just sold uh the show that I did for HBO, max On on Depression in the mental health care system. So I'm definitely an have TMS hopefully in our show. But I remember sending that to him. You're in essentially a doctor's chair that looks

like a dentist chair. You're like lean back. Another thing that they have is um typically in office and the offices they have Netflix up so you can watch Netflix while you're doing it. But it's funny to me it would be different for like I said, um, Neils, which was like thirty minutes, because you can actually watch an episode of something. Mine was like three minutes and I was like, what is the point? It was really funny because I came in I'm going to get I'm gonna

get crapped for this. But I came in and somebody whoever was in front of me was watching um Ricky Gervais, and I was like, I feel this will make me feel worse. Yeah, you'll just have a negative connotation with t MS. Yeah exactly. I think it's really funny, like are you gonna watch the Sopranos while you're getting TMS?

Like what are people choosing to watch? I always have them turn it off because I just wanted a moment of calmness, I think when I was doing it, or I'll have them put on one of the things on the TV settings is just like a meditative you know, screen saver type of of water the ocean. Um. So they do have that even at mind even though it's only three minutes long, you can start three minutes. Well.

I think how they did it is if you were watching something like whoever it was watching the Ricky Gervas special, it was saved at whatever they left off, so when they came in the next day they can watch another three minutes and really just keep chunking along. I feel like that's the best way to ingest that special three minutes. Three minutes. Yeah, Quimby should have made three minute episodes for people that have TMS. Um. Okay, so you're sitting

in this dentist's chair. Um, your they give you ear plugs. They give you ear plugs, which I never needed. Um, I just didn't like using them. And then when the machine is turned on, you hear clicking sounds that are tapping your head. Um. Again, this is from the Mayo clinic. It'll last about forty minutes. Mine was not that. My My psych had a different treatment. Um, so mine was much shorter. And then you can you can go about

your day. You can drive yourself home. You know. I found this sweet spot where I worked out before I did it, so I had all of these endorphins going and then I would go to my treatment. I would drive over from the gym and do my treatment. Um, I do not sweat and work out as hard as you, iffy, So it was more it was more something like I

wasn't all sweaty going in there. Um. I would go over and uh and then do it and it would be like a massive boost where I remember one day I was driving to the post office and I was so happy. I was like, is this how people feel that don't have depression? It was wild. Um, it was kind of like Jabouki's tweet where it was like wow people. It was essentially his tweet was like, people aren't on antidepressants. You're just like raw dogging the world, like you're just

walking through life like just raw. Like you know, we kind of have like a protective filter. I feel like with medicine and so doing that combo though, I remember I was on a high. I had like a high when I was leaving and I was like, I can't believe that I could feel like this all the time. That's so dope. Now afterwards it did kind of wear off and I didn't see immediate results. I would say,

you know, they are nice. Thing is that my psych checked in with me constantly asking like okay, well, if if you're feeling okay, we can increase your dose, we can increase your voltage, if you're not having any side effects, if you're not having headaches. Yeah, but I you know, it's up and down. What I really want to say, as we're covering mental health, may and all of these different treatments. Is it's a learning process and it's an

ever evolving process. Depending on what's happening in your life, you might need something else. So for me, I just think of myself as a guinea pig where I'm like, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna keep trying things until I just you know, get into the place that I want to be. But I'll probably go back to t MS. But I don't I don't think it's like a curel. I don't think it's like, oh, I'll do this for six weeks one time and then

my lifelong generational trauma is just solved. Yeah, but it's you know, it's good, a good break from it, right Yeah. I mean I think it's it's again. And also if you can get it covered, I think it's a great um, a great a great treatment to try, you know, constantly, just try. And Neil said it saved his life, right, So he was the same with me, like he was in a suicidal episode where ketamine didn't work for him. Ketamine made me feel worse. To be honest, do clinical

ketamine again. I did not do it. I didn't do special k uh from like a dealer. I did clinical ketamine under the person, under the supervision of a in a doctor's office. Yeah, and so it saved his life. So he's you know, and I am here and other people that have done it are here because we during this suicidal depressive episode, chose to do t MS. Yeah, let's dope on that note, We're going to take another break,

hopefully not getting too heavy. Um, we're gonna we're gonna jump more into this electro magnetic stimulation and talk about the future of it right after this. Welcome back to near defficent. I'm if you want the ways sitting across from me digitally Danny Fernandez when we're talking about t m AS today, and if you don't know what that is, that's transcranial magnetic stimulation. Uh, something Danny knows about. We've been talking about. We went through the history and all

of that. You know, I think you know we Danny when we went to break said she forgot to give this disclaimer, but we're gonna say it anyway. Obviously, transcranial magnetic stimulation is you can't do it if you have a metal plate in your head. Um, not not no, boy, no, but yeah, there's a couple of other contrary like you can't do it if you're I don't know if pregnant people can do it. Your doctor will definitely talk to you about it. They will not let you do it.

Just make sure that you're super open with them about anything, even even stuff that you're feeling afterwards. Obviously, if you have like side effects, let them know, keep them abreast. Oh and this is just in general. If you have side effects with your medicine, please keep your doctor abreast of them. I think I was dealing with a lot of fatigue with a certain antidepressant I was on. It just felt like even if I had an energy drink, I couldn't fully wake up. It was just kind of

like I was in a daze. And I told my doctor about it and so we we switched. But I think a lot of people just accept it. And I would say, you never know what other medicine is out there, so definitely keep them abreast of your because they were like, oh, well, that's not helpful. They want you to feel your best, especially if it's a medicine that you're taking every day. So definitely, this is just for mental health may let them know about your side effects, check in with them,

email them, talk to them. You should be, you know, in contact with the person that is essentially prescribing you things for your brain and your life, you know. So so keep them abreast, Keep them abreast. Danny has been choosing some some some choices of words this episode. I

feel like trying to be careful. The teen is getting to her, the teens who are saying abreast, she said, going in raw, I'm like, Danny, well, um, if I was, you mentioned e c T and I kind of just wanted to follow up and talk about the different It's really quick between e c T and TMS. So e c T is electron electro convulsive therapy, and it is different in that it essentially intentionally causes a series of generalized seizures. Now TMS does not do that. E c

T is administered in a hospital setting. T MS is also done that or at your doctor's office. But because the treatment is designed to cause a series of generalized seizures, patients are given muscle relaxants to prevent damage to muscles and bones during seizures. Some studies which we will link, I think super producer Joel has one for us that's from Psychiatric Times. Some studies that they have done have shown e C e C T to be more effective. Now to me, it sounds much more I guess the

word that's coming up is traumatic. Uh. Then then TMS, which doesn't involve inducing seizures, so that seems to be a more serious, intense treatment. However, it is an option and has helped other people. So I think as long as you're under the supervision of a doctor, definitely just talk talking out like the you know, these treatments are not for everybody. But as far as TMS, there are very very small side effects, I would say, and hasn't really nothing really serious, uh that I have found or

that my my psychiatrist has found. So you said it's completely painless, right this whole procedure. I want to say, t MS feels like somebody tapping your head repeatedly, So it feels like a finger tapping your head. I want to say, like a would you describe it as like a small thump as if you're like, no, it feels like somebody that has fake nails is tapping, but like it doesn't, it's not. It feels more sore than anything.

You know, those like and other people with TMS will probably be like, that's not what it feels like at all. The studies have said like it's pretty much painless. For me, it just felt sore. It feels like if someone with with uh fake nails is poking your skin and they just like at first, it's like, yeah, I can handle that, but then if they're doing it repeatedly, it starts to get a little like tender is the word I would

use in that area. That's what it feels like. And it's just a tiny but it does feel like a little a mix between a zap and a tap tap. Kay. Another thing I want to say is you, uh, this is more because we've we've talked about this obviously why you're doing the treatment, but sometimes you would kind of be like exhausted and fatigued after uh some of these treatments. Was that something that you felt from the beginning or is it after so many treatments you felt like, okay,

that like it starts to wear on you. I think it just depended on the day, but it definitely did. I definitely did feel fatigued certain days. Um, it's kind of like that feeling when you have a lot of caffeine and then you're tired after. So that wasn't permanent and didn't happen all the time, but definitely sometimes. I And here's the thing, my psych and I we're very

much in communication. So she actually let me come in in the afternoons, which they have been doing studies on at different universities as far as people doing it twice a day. Because I was having no side of no ill side effects, she allowed me to come in for free and do an afternoon one because I think I just needed an extra boost. Again, I've done a lot of things to try to treat my depression. You know.

She was like, Okay, if you're not having any negative side effects, I feel okay with you coming in and doing this for this allotted amount of time. So I actually did it twice a day. But I think another question I might have is, so you know, someone might be listening to this and they're kind of on the

fence of whether or not they should have it. Do you have any like words of wisdom that you said, like you should definitely considered it if this or if not that, or the third a couple of things I would you can always call and talk to someone on the phone. They always do free consultations, so you can look up t MS. If it's not in your immediate area, it may be worth dry, it may be worth investing it. And still, and we're talking about people that have tried

multiple avenues to cure their depression. So a lot of times when you've hit this one, you're really desperate and you again, like he said last episode, you kind of would do anything to treat it. And when not in the same vein. But when my uncle was trying to battle um he had stomach cancer, my my um aunt would drive him almost two hours to the treatment place because they just wanted the best treatment for him. UM. So I understand that not everyone has that option, but

it might be worth looking into. If even a place is, you know, farther away from you, definitely have a consultation though, and talk to them about it. I am not a licensed professional. I am just somebody who has done a lot of these treatments who can speak in the same way that Neil or other people with large platforms have

spoken about it saving their life. So if this saves somebody's life, then I feel that I've helped in some way, but again I am constantly Next week where covering E M d R, which is something else I've done, which other people have been maybe I'll get some writers and stuff to talk about it, but other people have been

very vocal of how it helped them. So I think one thing that I would say, if you're like me and you're just trying all these different things, to know that it's okay to constantly you know, like Dr or Lickman said last episode, it can be a lifetime of healing and technology is constantly changing. So I have had many times where I've wanted to give up, but luckily staying in contact with my psychs and my therapists, it's like,

let's keep trying, Danny. Let's not let's just keep you know, let's keep working at this and finding something that works for you. So I just wanted to instill that in people that there is hope, there's constantly you know. And on top of that, I was still doing talk therapy. I feel talk therapy is something I'm always going to have to do, but it doesn't hit everywhere that it needs to necessarily for some of us. So that's why some of these other treatments on top of doing talk

therapy can be beneficial. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that everyone should be doing talk to therapy. I think we were talking about that a little last week where you're just surprised. I think just we as human beings, uh, hold hold in so much because there's so much of this suck it up mentality, and really the more you kind of break it down and look into it, it's just people want you to carry not only your own burdens, but then when it comes time to carry their burden.

It's very selfishness that has been amplified in a weird way with so much uh, with so much social media. Uh, you know, I just look at it the same way where like just mere weeks from yelling at people to

just the law and and somehow trying to make it. Uh. You know, a person of colors fault, they're killed by the police, they're now outside trying to disobey the law for the stay at home orders simply because they don't agree with it, you know you know what I mean, Like it's not even because there's any noble reason, so it that just kind of I don't know, it's like really just I guess It's something I always knew, but it really just kind of highlighted how much it is

true that people don't necessarily believe in rules or expect rules. It's more so just that. And I think the same goes from mental health and on a societal level, we just think we have to bear this burden. We don't want to, especially a lot of people are like, oh, I don't want to bug you out, especially a lot of I find depressed people feel so much that they have to take care of others and not themselves, and

often forget to put their mask on first. And that's why you need to talk to somebody, because you'd be surprised how simply talking and letting how you feel and how you think you make other people feel off your chests will just lift you up. And then I think Danny's really hitting something home that I want everyone to know. It's just like, if that doesn't work, don't give up, just keep keeping keep trying their treatments, don't give up,

keep trying there, just keep fighting. You're better here. Well, yes, and I wanted to say that goes for therapists, to um. Some therapists I've clicked with some therapists I have left and never made another UM appointment therapist to me or like doctors, they're not perfect there, you know, some of them are limited in their understanding. UM. A lot of times it's equated to dating to like finding the right

therapist for you. I do want to say, if you find someone and you're like, oh, this is not working for me, find someone else. You know they they're you're paying them again, you're paying That's how I feel about doctors. And you're like, how do you deal with with not being listened to? I'm like, oh, I'm just not going to see you anymore. You're not listening to me, You're not doing it for me, and I'm giving you money every week, Like I'm not going to do that. So UM, definitely,

don't give up on your your search. And I know that that's really hard when people are like keep getting help and it's like I'm exhausted. It's kind of like I said last last week, a lot of times I'm just exhausted from trying to heal myself, and so you have to take time out. I think, even if it's time out from doing therapy or time out from seeking treatment, it's just like I can't put myself through another thing

one more time. I you know, so taking that time off and just kind of um letting your family know and your friends know, and again letting your therapist know. I let my therapist know, like I said last week, I do not want to do this, and she was like, okay, you know um, and she respected that because I've put in so much work. So one other thing I wanted to say, if you when you were like, it's so much easier for us to help other people. One thing that has helped me in my healing is viewing myself

as a third person. And it's wild how much easier that is to help myself. So with um, with my depression, when I was suicidal, it was like, what can we do to help Danny? This is our homework today. We need to find a therapist for Danny. We need to figure out we're not going to give up on her.

I even think of myself sometimes as little Danny. I'm like, well, little Danny, I imagine the little girl who was like bullied and having a hard time like in middle school, and it was like, well, she she had dreams, she had things that she wanted to do. Am I going to give up on her. No, I think that this little Danny who has survived so much deserves a great life.

So I'm not going to give up on her. And then I don't think of future Danny, and I'm like, future Danny has so many things she's going to accomplish. Am I really going to cut her life short and not allow her to do that? No? But it was so much easier to see myself as a third person and helping this third person than like current Danny. It's wild. Wow. I think that's the perfect note to go out on. So, Danny, where can people find you? I'm at miss Danny Fernandez

and all the things. UM, please be compassionate. I guess with if he and I, you know, we're trying to tackle these subjects. We will have UM licensed professionals on for some of these episodes, like we did last week and hopefully next week. But again, I'm just trying to speak from my experience. I'm not perfect. I'm very flawed. If I recommended something, you know, again, speak to a licensed professional. But I hope that this just opened your mind as far as what other people are doing to

treat depression and PTSD. Yeah, I think that goes without saying for this and last week's and future episodes, if there are any like very technical questions that you have for some of the things we talked about in uh as it pertains to you specifically, that's going to be a conversation with a licensed professional. Uh. If you want to kind of relate on the shared experiences, then that's something we can talk about with your online But when it comes for like do you think for me or

I'm experiencing this, yeah, we're gonna always have you. Uh. And and if you do ask us, we will say, Hey, you're gonna have to talk to your therapist about that because we are not licensed professionals. Just want to say that this is just a conversation based on the data that's out there and Danny's personal experience. Uh. You know, we we would we wish we could give you that info, but it would be irresponsible for us to even try so. Uh.

Shout out to that. And as for me, if you walt away Twitter and Instagram, if he's on twitchet Superpunch Monday through Friday, I will see you. And like you always say on this pod, stay nerdy and stay healthy.