Mental Health May: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing

you know, some people's perceptions about therapy and alternative treatments. Yeah. No, not to cut you off, but I have to. Now that she's pointed that out, I'm going to read something from the discord. VI King said that the podcasts that we've released have have pushed him, and now he's contacted, he's gonna get therapy, he's gonna talk to you. Yes. Yeah, So that made me feel good. I was like, yeah,

you know, thanks. And then other people have been doing nice little mental health things like keeping a law journal, um for for like for habit breaking stuff. So you know, lots of it's been um it's been uh been great. Yes, several people wrote me that it changed how they looked at trauma, like that conversation where I was saying that

it's not necessarily one traumatic event. It can be a bunch of small events, like having a family member that neglected you, like a parent, or you know, a relationship where it was like several things that might seem like well they called me dumb or they said this, but it's like overtime that adds up to trauma in your brain. Um, so yeah, so good. But today we're talking about something very interesting, right we are. We're talking about E M D R. Not too already forgot what is the electronic

music medium. I could see Kevin, our guest, who like mouthing it for me, getting it confused. Um, I was going to be like speaking of trauma. Our guests this week is television writer, producer, show runner, co creator of Cougar Town, creator been listed. I like to think of him as the a dad on the internet, Kevin Beagle, my dad or a daddy because someone daddy Kevin. I think that's cool. I would stay with those blue eyes definitely both. All right, Well, I'm very happy to be here.

I love I I weirdly but honestly love talking about trauma because I think it's so I think it's a great, great thing you guys are doing here. Thank you. That sound like a dad by the way, I think the great thing you guys are doing here, you and Mike Roys Like, I feel like you're both very much you take on the role of being the dad's of the Internet, like you're constantly showing your smoked meats um and talking

about your kids. But I think you look out for the rest of us that are like coming up, which is necessary. I feel like the rest of us that are breaking into the writing and the industry and it can be really vicious, and so I feel like we need mentors, and I feel like you're very much a mentor for many people, but also just collectively the Internet to say, I really do think that's it's it's what

we have to do. And I mean we as like a collective kind of we anyone fortunate enough to be in a position like I'm in, Like I mean, someone gave me, multiple people gave me a shot and helped me out. So I mean, I feel like I feel like I didn't that I'd be I'd become the kind of person living in Los Angeles that I go, God, I can't stand those people, you know. So there's basically a lot. It's a lot of it's fueled by not wanting to hate myself, but there's a lot of genuine,

you know, love and supporting. Also, they're like the industry and whatever you want to call it can't survive if it's a bunch true dudes like me who are writing all the stories like, you're also not old. I see you, I see you tweet that sometimes you are also not old. As your friend, this is my job to tell you these things. You are both a daddy and you're not old. Um. Well, we always start our podcast with what we're seeking out about, like anything that you're super into right now, Kevin, Do

you have anything that you're geeking out about? Yeah, I'm obsessed with the second season of What We Do in the Shadows. It's like my favorite show comedy of the past couple of years, easily. Um. It's so funny that every actor on it is excellent, the writing is incredible,

it's shot so well. I mean, I I that show is funny because the movie it's based on is one of my favorite movies, The Marvel Show that we did then it never went Actually, the whole that show The Conceit, and everything was based on that movie, even the style of it. So then when they said they were announcing this show, part of me is like, I hope it fails because we didn't make it, you know, like Dicky. But then I saw it's excellent, I mean, and everyone

is so it's so funny. Um. Yeah, I love that show. And then the other thing I'm watching right now it's not new um and I'm finally catching up as a Catastrophe. Oh yeah, I've been wanting to catch up on that too. What about you, Ifi? What are you getting out about?

For me? You know? Apex Legends has just introduced a new update and a new champion, new champion that I just can't get enough of, Loba who she was teased in the in the earlier kind of because there was another champion in the previous season called um uh it's

it's it's very edgy. What is Revenant? Uh? And in like in the teaser you kind of get hints that this takes place before the events of the game and there's a little girl who looks very angry when her her family is killed because Revenant is a gun for hire who has had his mind taken out of his body so that it can be replicated in robots so that he has a million lives. And he finds out in that uh in that backstory, Apex Legends has a deep lore. Shout out to my friend uh Manny uh

Gopien who writes on Apex Legends and Loba. I texted him the other day. I was like, hey, I got a question for Apex Legend. Was like, yeah, what's good. It's like, why do you make her so hot? Um? Because her name is Loba Andrade. I'll drop a link so everyone knows what I'm talking about. But but yeah, she she carries like a cane. She she has fun new abilities and they did a lot of fixing and balancing into the game and it's it's fun to play.

I've been deep in it and uh, I cannot wait to for the Lobo cosplay, you know, putting yeah, more thick Latinos in the game. During this uh, during the uh during this teen um. The thing that I'm seeking out about is actually Joel and I and our friend Sabina super producer. Joel and I like we have a little Zoom running date that happens every weekend where we watch like several hours of a TV show together essentially. Also while I'm cooking and cleaning, um there there with

me and we watched a fashion show with Tan France. Now, Tan France is one of the guys from Queer Eye, the newest edition of queer Ie, one of my favorites. Um. In fact, I find myself whenever I see him do something, I'm like, oh, Tanny because they call him Tanny in there, and I'm always like, that's my friend Tan. Um. Anyways, I'm so obsessed with him and have been that I didn't realize that he had a uh biography out, and

so it's called Naturally Tan and Um. It talks about his you know, coming up and how he got to Queer Eye, and it's just really fascinating. One thing that I didn't know about him is he was making his own clothes at like fifteen, so it's like he's been wanting to do that and break into He's been doing it since like birth. Um. Also, he was saying, because his family isn't used to Western culture, that his dad bought him barbies in a Barbie house, not knowing like

our you know, homophobia around stuff like that. That's incredible. He said his dad did it to show off to his cousin. He wanted to be like, well, look at the Christmas not Christmas whatever, it would have the equivalent. He was like, look at what I got him, and it was like barbies in a huge Barbie house. And he was like, it was like a dream. It was like the best. So yeah, anyways, I love I loved

tan Um also very spicy. I thought that he was just like, oh, he's like the he's non confrontational and no, he's confrontational, but that's on audible. He narrates it. I love it and I love him. Oh that's really cool. I have two more things I forgot. I got two more. One is the show on Netflix called and it's it's a kid show, but we blew through the first season with a nine year old are called Keepo and the

Wonder Beasts, and it's yeah and awesome. That show is great. Um, like the kind of big, weird fantasy stuff that like as a kid that you see you're like, oh my gosh, am I the only person in the world's gonna like this, And then you find somebody else who likes it and it makes it that much more special it's great. Um so that that and I think the second season is

coming out pretty soon as that. And then the other thing which isn't very new is I'm obsessed with Witch Or three and I need to honestly break the disk in half because I'm not getting anything done three in the morning. D yet I haven't that, I don't think I can't. I can't do it. And I'm so used to like like the Skyrie Me sort of you know, big open world stuff and fall Out where it's like there's clearly good and clearly bad, and in that game

there's it's so morally great. It's like you think you do something good and then a whole children, a bunch of children die are like the people being in the forest that was mean, like now while the kids still have to eat him by the witches, like there's no you don't get to be like the big hero in that game, which is fascinating to and and it's also beautiful.

So I'm i'm, I'm. I'm kind of losing way too much sleep and worktime corunning around with Gerald and maybe now I can watch the show on Netflix and sort of understanding because I tried to watch it before it was just it was just too much. What's your lure is? Yeah? And now now I bet I could sit down like all that serials. Yeah, it was like there she is. Today we are talking about another great transition. E M d R. It stands for Eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. UM.

It's fairly new, nontraditional type of psychotherapy. It's growing in popularity, particularly for treating PTSD. At first glance, it appears to approach psychological issues in an unusual way. It doesn't rely on talk therapy, although they're often combined. I think sometimes it's necessary. Um. But e M d R uses a patient's own rapid rhythmic i'm movements. These eye movements dampened the power of emotionally charged memories of past traumatic events.

That's some that's some wild stuff. I mean, we're going to get into what that means. We just listed off a bunch of words. Yeah. But but but stick with us. Let's let's go into the history and try and help you out. So M d R therapy was first developed by Francine Shapiro, upon noticing that certain eye movements reduced the intensity of disturbing thought. She then conducted a scientific study with trauma victims in the year me and Danny were born, and the research was published in the Journal

of Traumatic Stress in nineteen eighty nine. Her hypothesis was that when a traumatic or distressing experience occurs, it may overwhelm normal coping mechanisms, with with the memory and associated stimuli being inact, inadequately processed and stored in the isolated memory network. Schapire also noted that when she was experiencing

a disturbing thought, her eyes would involuntarily move rapidly. She further noted that her anxiety was reduced when she brought her eye movements under voluntary control while thinking a traumatic thought. Shapiro developed E M d R therapy for post traumatic

stress disorder. She speculated that traumatic events upset the excitatory inhibitory balance in the brain, causing a pathological change in neural elements more words, lots that There's a lot of information, but I feel like that was a little easier to digest kind of hearing the history of it, because you kind of get they kind of laid out the hypothesis really well as to why you would do this. Yeah, so I wanted to say that Kevin and I are

both doing different ones. There's several different ways to do E M D are based on what's right for you and also the psychiatrists that you're seeing. So Kevin, I wanted to ask, like, how did you how did you

find this? Um So I was I had been in therapy prior to starting MB are near ten years or so, UM and I think I hid, I know, think I know I hit that sort of plateau or I just felt like I was in therapy and kind of talking and talking and not working through issues so much and for and that can be wonderful community, but it wasn't hitting the core traumatic memories and experiences that I had, and I wasn't really I wasn't moving along with them. UM So, I can't remember who it was that suggested

E M b R. I actually, yes, I do. I know who it was exactly as my wife, UM because my wife went to school to be a therapist and she had heard about this and she said, why don't you look into it? And there was uh someone who is very well regarded here in Los Angeles UM therapist and I wrote her and she took me in and it was actually a therapist who by a weird connection my wife's therapist, uh that she had taught with new So like there I wasn't a stranger coming off the street, um,

and and just started from there. I've been doing it for about two years now, and I had to basically stopped seeing the last the therapist and switched to the new one, which was weirdly. I don't know if you've ever had to like basically say goodbye to a therapist. It's such a strange, like it should be easy, but it's not. And this was made stranger because she didn't want me to go, and she was, well, maybe can even coming twice a week and and and you can't.

You don't have to tell her about me. I'm like, this seems weird, Like that's going with the new agent. It's like being an agent and going with a new agent. I was like, I don't, I don't think I should. I should be here anymore if we're having this conversation. So I kind of like, you know, kind of like got out of there. And and she don't get me wrong, she was wonderful, but I think our time had the

relationship was over. And yeah, that's how we started with the emdr that's why I can't get over that because well, and I've I've seen a lot of therapists too. I kind of we talked about it like that. It's dating. You know, you're trying to find your right one that works for you. But I just can't imagine my therapist liking me and my problem so much that they want to hang onto them. It's a really it is such

a strange thing because you're basically you're right. It is like auditioning people are dating them because you don't if you if you're trying, like I'm someone and maybe you are too. That was very open to going in and talking about the stuff I was trying to deal because I was like, I need help. And if someone isn't that open to the experience and they go in and they sit down with somebody, there's no guarantee that first person to sit down, or the second person or the

third is going to be the right fit. And to kind of try to convince them, no, you have to there's other people, there's different ways. That's that's a hard buy for people because they kind of feel like, you know, well, the mechanic didn't fix my car, so I'm selling the car. It's like, no, no, you are the car like go to place, terrible metaphor like, so, uh yeah, it's it's

thank god that and I really mean that. The two therapists I've had where I was good fits with them and they were good fits with me, because yeah, that's that's a tough that's that's hard. It's really hard when it's not a right fit. Yeah. I wanted to get into what an actual session is. So some can last up to ninety minutes. Essentially, your therapist will move his or hor his or her fingers back and forth in front of your face and ask you to follow these

hand motions with your eyes. At the same time, the e m D the e m D R therapist will have you recall a disturbing event. We'll get into that because that's extremely traumatic. Uh. This will include the emotions and body sensations that go along with it. Some therapists use alternatives to finger movements, such as hard or toe hand or toe tapping, or musical tones. Now I know yours is a little bit different. Kevin, can you talk about when you first what your first session was like? Yeah,

it was so, it was very really interesting. I think it's really important to stress as we're talking about the m d R UM and this is my personal experience. You can't speak for anybody else, but if you're going into look look at doing it. You don't want if you go into a new therapist and you do it, you don't want to do it the first session, Like, that's not the way to do it. You have to build up the m d R kind of experience. And

there's a whole process that goes there. You know that it's basically I met with my therapist probably for a solid month, you know, once a week. UM, she's getting my history, getting the history of my trauma and stuff that I was the kind of presenting her with UM and then even beyond. And that's just kind of normal therapist talk. But the thing that's very specific to m d R as I had it was then you're also to gear up to these e m d R sessions.

You're building this sort of mental safe space if this makes sense, and you're populating it with people who have you have zero issues other than pure support and love. So mine and I'll expose this part. My my mental safe space to go to was my garage, because the garage has no other issues outside of it. It's like this big nerdy garage full of movie posters that I

watched films in. I have friends over to watch them, like I just sitting there and play skyro them like an idiot, and you know, everyone tells me to turn the volume down, like it's just pure joy being in there, and and it literally does feel safe. It's cozy. So that's kind of a mental mental starting place for these sessions. And then I've populated it with people and I've taught you know, we go in therapy, we go through who are these people? Doesn't have to be a lot um.

Who are pure people and influences in your life that you basically want their uh. And as you're thinking about this um to be behind you, imagine they're kind of surrounding you that they've got when someone's got their hand on your shoulder and you're just you're surrounded by people who love you and you love them, UM, and you get those and you talk about why those people are important.

So you're I'm in the I mean so mentally you kind of build this place up where I'm in my garage and I've got people around me that I care about UM and trust me when the first time I did this, I'm like, this sounds insane, Like this does not This doesn't sound like therapy of this sounds like, you know, someone's waving a crystal over my head, you know,

and they're chanting around me. Um. But anyhow, so I sat on the couch and the therapist in front of me, and she had these two little devices that she could control that pulsed and vibrated, and I, I, can you put them where around your body want? You just want

to feel that vibration, very rhythmic vibration. And I had them and I put them underneath my legs, underneath my thighs, and basically before we started the e MDR session, we pinpointed kind of one specific moment that was kind of a core for a lot of the trauma that I was dealing with. And in a specific moment for me was I was dealing with a lot of trauma still because a little over ten years ago, out of nowhere,

I had a heart attack almost killed me. Doctors all said it should have killed me and I and I had no way of coping with that reality. I mean, it was just I couldn't shut off that switch that said you should be dead. I just couldn't. I mean, and it come back to me all the time, and just if theyn't even thinking about it would scare the crap out of me. And it was it was very

it's hard to deal with. UM. So the core memory one of them at least, that was a big signifier of this stuff and would literally kind of cause me the tense up and shoulders would go up. Was when I got a phone call from a heart doctor that said, you're you need heart surgery immediately. Um, we need to put a stent in you, or we need to do angioplastic um. You've got a major blockage blocked in the back.

It's the basically the thing that they called a widow maker that kills people like that and I'm out of nowhere. It was a Friday night. I was at home meeting pizza, Like, I was like, what, so I'm sitting at my desk, I take this phone call. So that was kind of that and I could never think about that call without those things I just talked about, you know, going like this, my face getting flushed, just you know, classic traumatic reaction, and that would right into other places of my life.

So basically I've got these little buzzing things underneath my legs. She goes, okay, you know, however you want to do this. Do you want to keep your eyes open? Close and whatever. I wanted to close and close my eyes, and she said, go through them in and tell me what you see. So I went through the memory and it went through it. First time I went through it was pretty basic, and in my mind's eye, I was picturing what I saw then.

And what I saw then was me sitting at my desk, you know, my my eyes looking down and writing a pad with red notes. You know what the doctor was saying. I was seeing my point of you. So she went through the whole thing and she goes, okay, now it's how did you know? Questions? How did that make you feel? How does this make you feel telling it? I told her, Okay, now let's go through it again. Things are still vibrating underneath my legs, my eyes are still shut. I go

through it again. This time. When I go through it, I'm a little angrier when I tell the story. It's frustrating me more. All the stuff is bubbling up, same things. Why are you angry in it? Right now? Let's talk about that go with that. Next time, she goes, okay, let's hear it again. Okay, go through the third time. The third time, as I'm telling it, that's when let the tears start, you know, and oh, my God, gonna die. I want to die. I don't want to be not

around for my wife or my kids. This is awful. Um go through it again and then the same questions again. And this is where it gets the magic part for me, at least happened and why I'm the biggest proponent of it ever and I know it works, at least in my case. She goes, go through it again. Fourth time. I go through it, not crying as much this time, but the well, I swear to God. The strangest thing happened. My point of view in my mind's eye, eyes were shut as I'm telling a story. And I didn't even

think about this until it was happening. And after it happened, my point of view was no longer me looking straight down. Now I was me. I was looking at the back of my head, sitting at a desk. I was looking at me, seeing at that desk. And as I went through it slowly, it's like a camera shot slowly the camera started to pull back and I saw not just the back of my head, I saw my shoulders. I saw the back of the chair, I saw the desk

in front of me. And as I told the story, I was a little lighter as I told it, I wasn't as heavy one as it wasn't as crying as much. It was still sort of hazier on the edge is of the images that I saw. We talked about why I felt that way, and she goes, okay, now do it again. And then as I told it this fifth or sixth or seventh time, I don't even know how long, because it was one of those nine minute a hundred

minute sessions. I swear to God, this happened as I as I tell a story this last time, the camera in my mind's eyes comes around, and now I was looking at myself in my mental image of this memory, I was no longer my p O V looking at that piece of paper. I was looking at me, hearing this news, seeing me back then, and my immediate reaction to that as I started probably one of the hardest times I've ever laughed in my entire life. I started laughing so hard in the middle of the of the session,

and as I'm and she's like, don't stop. Go through and I can't stop laughing. And I'm seeing this guy here whose life is just has just broken in a way he could never have anticipated every feory ever had because I grew up with a huge fear of death and stuff in my family. Every fear has just been confirmed.

He thinks he's gonna die. And I'm laughing my ass off and I get through it, and I'm and my point of view is now looking at me, and she says, why you're laughing, And I said, because I'm that idiot has no idea the amount of ship he's gonna have to put up with for the next ten years of his life dealing with this right now. He has no idea what's in store for him. Like he is just like still got pizza on his face, like what's going on? And and and it was the most incredible thing. Went

through it again, and this perspective stayed that way. I was now looking at myself. Session was over, you know, Okay, come out of it. The vibration sort of stops. I'm absolutely exhausted, exhausted, and I don't mean like I mean like mentally exhausted. I felt like I just run a marathon. And she's like, go home, don't drink, you have a snack and get a good night's sleep. Okay, this is weird, magic trick thing that just happened. And I go home. And then that was about a year and a half

a go. It has been I have I have never once thought about that specific memory again and had it be terrifying or scary or have that power over me that it used to have. Now because of what the MDR has done, and as I've sort of tried to understand the science that was such a huge traumatic memory, and you guys spoke of it when you were describing this. Your body can't process something that's severe right away, and

it doesn't even know how to store it. So it's almost like it's just like let's shove it in your and it's just sitting in parts of your brain affecting other things, affecting other memories, other decisions, other emotions. And what E m d R does is basically kind of compartment compartmentalize it, compartmentalize that they can't talk, and puts it in a place where you can understand what that moment was but also for me, understand, I'm not that

person anymore. I'm the person now, I'm the person who's put the work into myself and it's still gonna have to keep putting their working to myself. But I'm not I'm not that the And I use this term specifically just for me, and I don't mean to usual anybody else, but um, I'm not that victim anymore of that circumstance. I'm someone who survived that and I'm on the I'm

still surviving it. And that's that was that. That was one experience with E. M. D R. With an actual session, and that's It's insane how it has basically taken a real traumatic memory and moment and not made me scared of it anymore, and not made me live in fear of it and live and fear of bringing it up. And I can at times laugh at it because that's mine, Like that's that was my story. Like I don't I'm

not a slave to that story anymore. That's me, that existed in my head and now it's part of me, but it doesn't rule me, and it's just it is. I don't I don't tense up or anything when I think about it anymore. And that was that was the first big one we did, and there's been a number of them since then. Some of them were hard stuff, some of them were other things in my life that I've kind of went through and and and I am

dealing with and dealt with. But and there's been a couple other that were that that visually stunning as far as how it changed my perception of things. So I actually have questions about your first one. I have a bunch of questions, but We're going to take a really quick break and then I'm going to ask you all

these right after this and we're back. I wanted to say you and I actually talked about, uh, the show that I had sold to HBO Max that was about life after my suicide attempt, which is the same thing. I thought it was the funniest thing when I woke up that. I mean, it's very dark, and this is why we're all comedy writers, but I thought it was so hilarious that I, uh, I felt like I was a failure at everything, and I also failed doing this, and that to me was so dark but funny, and

it's just it's just little. Actually, everybody in my crisis group also had that like sense of humor. We would just laugh about things that you're not supposed to laugh about, like your heart attack and other stuff. Um, but it's very unique to us, and I feel it's very healing. So I know that can be hard for some people to understand, but I do feel there's a huge portion of people, especially comedy people. Comedy comes from pain and trauma. So why a lot of comedians that had rough childhoods?

I will on the sleep you didn't have one. I don't know how, I don't. I think you should choose a different job. It also not that I would ever want wish this would happen to me or you upon anyone, but it definitely. I mean I can even we've we've never talked before, you know, face to face, right, We've been friends online but never talked before, immediately you can sense when somebody else has had that kind of experience.

It's traumatic because it's like, oh, there's a short emotional shorthand already was, but you feel like you're more open with people, Like it's really interesting how that can form a bond very quickly, which I think is very It's it's fascinating and I think you're right and this and I can see why E M d R has becomes such a big thing with the soldiers coming back, because you know, how do you talk about these things that you don't even want to talk about or even or

even think about. This is it's a it's an amazing technique that can kind of help to heal you, Kevin. So, can you talk to me about the thigh whatever? The vibrators? So is she moving that? Are you telling her to move them? So basically you kind of set it up at the beginning of the E M d R session. They're two kind of little vibrating rhythmic things. Um, Kevin's dirty comedy brain is going to certain places. But she's

increasing the dosage right or like she can? She can, she can definitely, she can definitely adjust the intensity of them, how how hard that, how how hard they kind of vibrate, and how quickly that they have very but if it's like one hard one hard one hard one or heart slow slow slow, Um, And there is so the E M d R I do. I can't remember the specific name.

It's called. It's like touch sensitive E M d R. To gets upset of of d E M D r And this one was discovered by someone who they were literally out for a walk one day and they noticed that the bipedal motion of their feet on the ground had an effect on a memory they were thinking of, and they took that little moment of inspiration and developed this entire system. So basically it I think it helps in kind of rewiring your brain because the sensation, the input,

it's not just visual, it's not just memory. There's actually a touch feeling to it too. You're using more senses I think. Don't quote me on that. I'm not a scientist.

I write fart jokes for living um so. But she controls the vibrations and sometimes they get more intent, sometimes less, but usually it keeps kind of like a steady pace um And it's actually I find it very soothing actually to have these kind of things vibrating under underneath your like you don't even think about them after the first minute.

They're just there. But it's just kind of like a gentle hum as you're as you're going through these um very very emotional like in and trigger and hard memories and things you you know, don't want to say or admit it. Somehow, it's almost like a comfort blanket. Like it's not the same thing, but I can almost see how this that feeling of like having a weighted blanket on you. There's a there's a similar to touch something

to it. And another thing that's interesting about this is that Part and Parcel with the which is the new pilot I just sold ABC Part and Parcel. It's not a parcel company that also sells auto parts. Um it's say, I never know, I never know when you're kidding or not. Um, No, it's it's there's a thing called tapping. So and you've seen maybe Olympic athletes and stuff do this before race, where they'll tap their shoulders, tap their forehead. It's kind

of a way of mentally prepared setting yourself. And the thing I've done and this thing that has really helped here is the same place that those vibration things that I take three MDR which is underneath my legs for

memories that are profound memories or revelations or whatnot. Part of the therapy is you kind of and she got the therapist calls it tapping it in so like ten or twelve times, you just tap it on top of your thigh and it sounds silly, but in a weird way, it's almost like hitting the save button on a computer and it physically and the physical sensation. It's one thing to go, boy, I want to remember this forever. But there's something about doing that that it kind of for

me at least locks it in. And I know that's part of the touch sensit of MDR therapy as well. Another thing I think, are you still doing Are you still doing E M d R or when did you? Oh? Wow, Okay, I was just gonna say it seems like it's something that like you would do for a short I just can't imagine because I'm currently doing it and we're gonna get into the one that I'm doing, but I can't imagine doing it for a year or so, Like are

you still finding new breakthroughs? And I definitely. It's interesting you say that because I definitely am finding new breakthroughs about stuff, but it's about different things, and that a lot of the therapy has shifted to more traditional UM therapy sessions, which is great, not as E M d R specifically focused, but in those therapy sessions, every once in a while, stumble upon something that is like, oh, this is something to dig deeper about, Like there was

a thing with with my family that I had never It's one of I'm sure you've had this before. It's the strangest thing where you're in there and you blurred out something in the middle of a session. You're like, especially the ones where like what am I going to talk about today? And it's like, ship, I got an ala to kill. I have to fill I have to fill the room with And then you say something, Oh my gosh, that's why this person treated me horribly growing up or whatever. It is like, how the hell did

I never realized that? And there's it's very helpful to know that. Then there's a resource for me, that's the MDR that can then deal with those things. And I think you're right though. I think if you're going and it's totally fine if you're going in for a specific thing, you know, if you're a soldier going in for uh, seeing your buddy almost killed or whatever, it is like, yes, that's great, you don't have to stick with it forever, um,

But I just I like having that there. That was so funny because people asked me when I first started therapy, and I normally tell them Oh. It was when I was seventeen had an eating disorder just from bullying in school, and my parents put me in therapy. And then I'm like, unless you count, like I remember going to therapy when I was little, And then I was like, oh, I think I was in therapy when I was little, but

I like don't fully remember. I just remember being in the office, and like, you know, therapy is so different for kids, and I think it was mainly for my little brother, but it's also something that I haven't I have so much going on. I haven't even tackled that yet with my family. Uh so, Mom, if you're listening, yeah, I'm like, wait, I remember a highlights magazine in the office and me having to be there and talk to

a lady. And then I was like, oh, but it's it's like we were saying, your brain literally to protect itself, will put those away. It was like you were saying, it will like compartment, it will like put that in a safe uh compartment. And why some of us need more than talk therapy. It's like we're hitting a wall. We're hitting like a boundary or something that like you just can't level up. In my opinion, I was like, so, I've done so much talk therapy. Why am I not

floating at this point? Yeah, it's the hardest. I think you hit it exactly on the head. Is that the way was explained to me, and I've tried to educate myself about this more. There is there's there's big trauma and little trauma. Big traumas like the big stuff you think of, like the huge things that we've been talking about, but there's also a little trauma and little trauma can be the you know, why do you think you remember that kid who called who? Who called me fat? In

third grade? Why would why would that memory stick with me? Random? Like, well, actually, if you dig into it, there's a reason for that. Like why does this little thing stay with me that my mom said to me when I was leaving for college. I don't know, oh ship? Yeah, I took that in a certain way and that that was indicative of something else. And those things are insidious because they are like little boxes. But unfortunately they're like little leaky boxes that then get

their ship on everything else in your brain. And this is like a way of mopping mopping them up basically, Yeah, that's that's what's so interesting and that's why. Like one of my favorite you know, comedy bits to do, whether it be an improverb in a dialogue, is when someone says when someone like mentions someone's first and last name as a retort, where it's like, yeah, yeah, I am strong Jim Jim Bakerson because everyone can relate to that

one person who's first and last name. You remember who said that thing to you, And for some reason you're still hanging onto it. And and if you talk to a therapist they might let you know. But one thing I did want to talk about, how you were talking about how your brain compart to mentalize this is um, Danny knows this. I went down a hole during uh. You know, people have disassociative UH disorder, which you know

was used to be known as multiple personality disorder. And watching them talk about that trauma, what goes through it a lot of times is they dissociate when they deal with the trauma because they attached. They create a new identity uh to who who they believe can handle that trauma. And a lot of times like it's interesting, there's lots of words it's worth checking out, like worth checking out, like out of sheer interests don't like go here to

be like you know, like it. It's very interesting because they they really like break down there. Every you know, personality has a role. You have one like there are some people who like whenever it's sex and sex stuff, that's that personality. Whenever that it's it's dealing with the trauma, it's and it's usually the personality around it. It's built

for it. So like a strong you know man personality can handle you know, because of our like patriarchal ideas of what can handle pain, you'll have like a man, a strong man, even in women or women identifying uh you know people with D I D will make that

person the one who deals with the trauma. It's very interesting and it it also makes you marvel at our brains of like we are built to try and protect and defend ourselves from those things and so so much so that we will create a whole new person, you know to deal with that. Yeah, well I was going to say, um, I know you went down that rabbit hole if you and I don't know if you personally know anyone or Kevin, do you know anybody that is also doing M D RRE you like the only one

out of your friends. UM, that's a good question because I I think I do as the answer I can say, because I'm like, I'm Johnny open about every emotional thing because I don't. I feel like I like it, and I also feel like it gives me power over the thing. I'm like, I'm gonna talk about you. I don't care. UM. But I could never expect that from my friends. And so I know that some of them are. I know that's something new therapy, and I know that some of them do E, M, D R. But I don't know

how deep they've gotten into this the session. And I've had friends come to me because I've talked about it online and said, hey, can you tell me about it? Can you recommend me to anybody? UM? And I have UM because I mean, if I wish that everybody could would could have this resource. I mean it's a very, very very I realize how fortunate I am to have this. So it's UM. And but the wonderful thing is that there's a lot of places that are starting to offer

the services as because it's fairly new. UM. I know, like some of the vas are starting to do it more some of the uh, you know, if you look at look online. You can find therapists that don't charge a lot or just still trying to get their hours um, and you can get in there. But I'm not sure that one's trying to get their hours can do E M, d R. Because I think you have to be have, you have to be special. Um. But it's there's definitely more opportunities out there for people to do it. For me.

It kind of at least your initial sessions. The way that I think of it is like it's the movie of your life and then they have you freeze on like the worst possible moment of your life. So it does, like you said, it takes you have to build up that resiliency. Um. It's like essentially if you're watching The Lion King and then just watch the part where move

Fasa dies for thirty minutes. Those terms even get us where the therapist will be like okay, now rewind now pause, like and I'm like, okay, get it, but no, you're it's exactly it. It's like take I'm like, why can't we do em? What's the opposite of indre? Can do? MR? Like the really great stuff like the time I went to talk about and they gave me like six free tacos like that. I think that they're I think that

actually is. I think that's the other side of E M d R. I think once you process your traumatic stuff, it's allowing you, I don't know, talk to your therapist about it. But when I was researching for this episode, Um, when I was researching for this episode, I did see that they had eventually move over to the good You focus on the good memories and kind of like strengthen them. Oh, that's really interesting. Ours are just having us go through

all the crap. We're gonna take another quick break, um that we're gonna hop back into E M d R and talk about brain spotting, which is the one that I'm doing right after this, and we're back, we're still talking about E M d R. Thank you again, Kevin for being so open about your process. Truly, you gave a lot of insight and we've got real personal with us and I truly appreciate that. We're going to talk about my subsective brain spot my subsective E M d R,

which is brain spotting. If you do want to tell the people what brain spotting is, Yeah, brain spotting is a powerful, focused treatment method that works by identifying, processing and releasing core neurophysiological sources of emotional body pain, trauma, dissociation,

and a variety of other challenging symptoms. Brain Spotting is a simultaneous form of diagnosis, of diagnosis and treatment enhanced with biolateral sound, which is deep, direct and powerful, yet focus and containing and Brain spotting was discovered in two thousand and three by David Grant, PhD, and over thousand therapists have been trained in BSP, which is brain spotting fifty two internationally in the United States, South America, Europe,

the Middle East, Asia, Australia, and Africa. Yeah. So it actually access accesses unprocessed trauma in the sub cortical brain. The first time I did it, Okay, So my session was essentially UM, where I'm looking at. You know those pointers that professors have, not the not the light ones, like a physical, actual pointer that you pull out and you can point to, uh, you can point to something on the chalkboard. That is essentially what they have for me.

They have this little pointer that they pull up UM and they can adjust the height and adjust it across horizontally and vertically. I'm staring at the top of the pointer, and she has me access like, what are what is angering you right now? Or what are the feelings that you're feeling, what is the memory that you're thinking of, And let's say mine's being cheated on, So she has me look at the top of the pointer and focus

on the emotions and feeling even in my body. I feel it in my gut, I feel it behind my belly button of this feeling, this fear of being cheated on um. And then the anger starts to come up, which is why it was so funny Kevin that you said that I got progressively more angry. I actually think that I experienced all the stages of grief in that session, where you're angry and then I'm sad and I'm weeping. Meanwhile, she's a dead silent, like they're silent most of the

time while you're doing this. It's you processing for twenty minutes, and I'll occasionally check in. She'll be like, Okay, tell me what's going on, and I'm like, I just don't know why I'm so angry, and she's like, okay, just question that. And that's helped me a ton with my healing. Is not being judgmental, because I'd be judgmental, like why are you jealous of this woman? And you're so bitter and you're so bubble and you can't let it go

and you'll never be this. And instead it's like I'm cures as to why Danny is, why she can't let this go, why she doesn't want to move on? Why is she holding onto this? You know? And for a lot of people it's like, well, it makes sense, that makes sense, you'd be upset about that. But what we're saying is okay, but we've now reached a level in our therapy where we want to let go. We're done

hanging onto this. It's effect it's like the poison where what is that Hatred is like poison or jealousy is like poison um, but like if you drink it yourself and expect the other person to die. It's like it's just is this gripping, tense feeling that you don't want to have anymore about this person and so or this memory. However, afterwards, I was incredibly I was I felt very brave. I felt extremely brave for for bringing up these traumatic events.

And of course it's not just one thing. It's like, well, my dad was a cheat or e cheat on my mom a ton. Okay, well he left our family. Okay, I've been left before. Like it's all of these things. It's not just like one instance, right, it's all these things. Like you were saying that it's a leaky compartment that dives into all these other things. Afterwards, I felt okay, Like I felt like, okay, I let that go. It

was cathartic. I wept about it, and she told me, you're going to be processing this for the next forty eight hours, but like whatever comes up immediately after your session is in your inner core. And I had a breakthrough. Every time I do it, I have a breakthrough. But it's like, this is you've now focused on this for an hour, so you got past the surface of what you think. So now after this hour, every journal what

is coming up, and it would be breakthroughs. I was like, Oh, this isn't about them, this isn't about her, This is about this thing that happened to me a long time ago, and like this is why I can't let it go, And like that doesn't even have to do with me. That has to do with them and the way that they treat like it's all these all these things are coming up. So I felt good. Twenty four hours later,

I completely spiraled, and I remember I messaged Kevin. I messaged you, and I was like, I have totally spiraled and I can't. I was just in a dark place. I was writing stuff that was like how why, Like what is the purpose of life? It's just going to be trauma all the time. It was just it was in a not great place and you were great. You were just like hanging there. It was great to talk to you and knowing that you had like also had.

Essentially what you're doing, in my opinion, with with accessing this trauma is you're opening up a wound and making it now a raw nerve. Now you're desensitizing yourself. The more that you do it, like Kevin was saying, you do end up like it gets easier and now that I've done multiple sessions, it's much easier. But that's what you're doing, and that's why I think it takes a tremendous amount of bravery to know that you're actively going

into the dark side. It's like you're taking a flashlight and you're going into something that you can't even see, like just the darkest area, the scariest, creepiest area of your brain and knowing that you'll come out on the other end, but it's terrifying going in there. It's so scary and mean. It's the thing that was I was told me, told to me that I always come back to about this stuff, is you don't ever get over any of this stuff. You just learned to integrate it.

And that's a huge there's a huge difference there, you know. And I think I think with a lot of therapy, whether it's MDR or the one I kind I do, or brain spotting like you do, or even just you know, laying on a couch therapy the misnomer for a lot of people. As I think, well, I'm gonna go in here and I'm gonna get over this and be fine, It's like, no, you don't get over anything. You just learn how to incorporate it into into your life. Yeah, but I was that I am that night. I remember

I was like I was talking. My wife was next to me, and I was like, honey, um, we gotta pause for a second. I was like, I was gonna text you and ask your phone number, like I didn't think if you a call to make sure you're okay. But it's scary that that stuff pops up. It is. It's that it's one of the worst feelings when you put so much work into something and like you said, you do something so brave and then your body goes nope, We're still freaked out. I don't know if you do this.

I do this all the time where I yell at my body body. We really doing this today, I'm likeself like, no, this is my brain and this is my belly, and I'm gonna yell at my belly like I just I get. So it's like a stupid conversation. But what was wild for me is I'm literally paying someone to just hold up a pointer and and meanwhile I am listen. It's bilateral sounds. So she has a soundtrack that I'm listening to, which does um I can send it to you, but

they have. It's so funny because I did ketemy. I did clinical kenemine at a doctor's office and I really listen. I got really low and wild. I called up my dealer time I did clitical ketamine and they also had a headphones on me where they played bilateral sound and it it gets into a I don't know, a part of your brain. It literally makes me cry every time I listen to it, but like it not in a

bad way. But okay, I'm ready. I'm strapped in. I'm safe and I'm ready to You know, have you ever into music that makes you like you actively want to listen to something? Yeah, I mean like I have every I mean I can put on a soundtrack right now. I'll be crying in ten seconds. It's the Flying Circus cue from the Rockets. Here here we go. Wait, I'm saying, is the is the? Is the? Is it like a

tonal thing? Or are you listening for? Like no, no, no, no no, It's like, um, it's like meditation, like music is what I can but there's definitely a beat to it. Um, and uh, we'll put a link. I'll put a link. I don't know. I'm guessing people use it for different reasons. They use it for sleep hypnosis as well, which is a big thing that I'm into. Um. But what was fascinating is when I did the ketamine, they used the same soundtrack, so I recognized it and then that also

made me cry. But um, we're doing your session. I'm sorry, I'm so curious when you were. So, when you do your sessions, does does the therapist guide you through them at all? Or does she basically say watch this in go and then does she ask you to replay this session? Or is it kind of you're you're the captain to your own ship. I'm the captain, I think. Also because I've just done so, she's like, I'm going to trust

your brain. Let me know. Here's another thing. She tells me where to put the pointer and I'm telling y'all listening at home. It is the wildest thing because she'll move it to a certain location on the screen and it makes me uncomfortable, and I'll tell her can you lower it? And can you move it a little to the left. That's the thing that drove me that I thought was crazy because you would think, oh, it's just a dot, and it's like no, I actually, oh this

feels so weird. Now can you an inch? Okay, that's too low? Can you move it up? It's the wildest thing. And I guess it's accessing that makes sense. Like I guess it's accessing something great. And I am a firm believer now that I've had these sessions with it. So she's playing the music, she does check in with me. She'll watch me get really emotional, and I'll see her just nodding her head like yep, you got it, like you got into the the thing and yes, because I'm

staring at the point. Yeah, So I'm staring, so my eyes are open and it's the why. Okay. So for me this last session, I dealt with fear. It was like the fear of being abandoned, the fear being cheated on, the fear of being all of that, like just an overwhelming sense of fear that anytime I'm going into a new relationship, I'm like, this isn't gonna last. He's gonna cheat on me. He's gonna I don't care, like he's gonna cheat up. Like it's just it's it's so ingrained,

you know. And so the little dot it was so crazy that I was staring at the whole time. It was just like, give me your fear, just give it to me, Just just hand it to me. It's fine, I'll take it. I'll just take it from you. And it was just the wildest It was almost like I could just place all my fear on the top of that dot and then walk away. It was just crazy. So that was my that was my experience. Every time I do it, we're kind of focusing. It all has

to do with validation and fear and like abandonment. But I would say it's different, it's different. It's different. Like she'll she'll check in with me and be like, what is a thing that's affecting you the most right now? Um? And so we'll and then she has me check in with my body. So it'll be like, where do you feel it? And yeah, get that too. Yeah, it'll be like my chest. I can just feel it heaving, like it's just like a not in my throat or something. Um,

and it eases up. So there's different. Yeah. So so in other words, there's very different ways. Your E M d R that you're doing is very different than mine. Um, however both effective for us. Yeah, how long as we wrap up here, do you think it's something that you'll do maintenance on or do you think you could ever stop doing it? I there's there's one thing that wants

to say that I can stop. But that's the part that that's the anxious part of me that goes that just gives me another hour to work every day, and that's not healthy. So I think it's good that I keep going and doing it and and keep discovering stuff. And I don't think I don't think it'll be e M D R sysians forever like we were talking about earlier.

I think they'll be fewer and farther between, because I'm not sure about yours, but mine have been very Mine are very pinpointed about specific memories UM and and and as we talk more like more of those things kind of pop, Like I never thought this was so important, like I was saying, but it is. And I think a lot of the big ones I've actually kind of addressed, Like the hard stuff I'm way better with than I was before. Some the relationship stuff with UM, way better

with than I was before. What it's actually and this is kind of a side note, but it's interesting. It has made me much more open to even other different types of therapies, Like uh, I went to did marriage therapy with my wife because I'm like, we've been married for ten years and at first I was like, I don't want to do that. We're perfect, and she's like, no, stupid. It's like yourself check up on it. I was like, oh, that makes sense. And part of that that we do

is this. It's a very intense thing where that your faces are like twelve inches apart and you were looking directly into the other person's eyes. It's it sounds nuts and you can't look away really and you have to keep that contact as you talk to them, and it's really fair and I love. It's just made me more curious about therapy and also how that affects even mind, because it's just that's why not like this is up here. I want to learn as much as I can about it.

I wanted to say, because you talked about some of your breakthrough so one of my breakthroughs was realizing it was like, oh, they did that because they're hurt like that,

or because they're insecure. When I look at since we're being really open, my dad cheated on my mom a ton, even though she was gorgeous, she was a great mom to us, and it just didn't I think in her mind it was like, Oh, if I were just prettier, and I was just That's how I think often it's like if I was just more successful, if I was just prettier, and then you realize and it's like, oh no, they have a whole they have an insecurity in themselves

that means they need outside validation from more than what like they need outside. My dad needed outside validation from so many women to cure how he felt about himself and it didn't cure. It was just like a hole that he could never fill, um that he should have been getting help on, right. But those are like breakthroughs that you have that's like, it literally wasn't me. There

was literally nothing else I could have done. It was them and they're insecurity and their fear and their hurt and it's kind of like that hurt people, hurt people, you know, And it was such a great breakthrough for me to you know and take off a lot of fault and take off a lot of that heaviness is that I feel, um that like all of it is because of me. And it was just like, yeah, that's a that's an amazing shift to have. I've had that

once a similar sort of thing with uh. It was it was via E. M. D R. And it was a relationship where I was basically looking at it going oh gosh, I was like like I hated how I felt I was treated and I just felt like I was just a nothing and it was just you know this, another person had all the power. And then via these sessions, something very similar happened where I was like I was just I was just a person who was in their eyeline and dealing with it like it ain't about me. Yeah.

I've had so many times where I've been like, wait, he's miserable. I'm literally especially dating people this industry, I'm like, well, no, he got to walk away and he's successful, and I'm like, but he's miserable. Okay, I get it. I'm glad I was. I'm glad I had boundaries and walked away and like, yeah, one of powerful things you can realize. And it sounds horrible because it's like it's not wishing ill on somebody else. It's not because it's you got to take care of yourself.

Is that exact thing you just said. It's going Oh wait, yeah, you're a sad sack and you're miserable. Okay. I want to say, it's not just relationships, it's a it's colleagues and people you've had to work for, and you're like you take it as a writer or whatever. It's like, this person is treating me awful. I must be not great at my job. I'm not as talented as I thought,

lah blah. And then you're like, oh crap, this person is just not And then and then you find out like everybody else has the same story with this person. So it's this is the best therapy issue advice I ever got. And I'm only gonna say it is because it's from the coolest person ever, from Keith David. Because Keith was on Enlisted and he was on the New Warrior Show and I'm friends with me. He's like a

wonderful human being. And I was talking to him at one point about life and issues and stuff and somebody who was just kind of toxic. And he goes, Kevin, you know what I've learned? And I go, what what please tell me? And he goes, it's not your ship, Like what do you mean? He goes everything else, it's not you. That's the always remember that. But in my head I hear Keith David saying that it is like

the garden King Gargoyle. I'm like, all right, yeah, time to take this then for landing, and it was thank you so much for talking with this, uh talking about us talking about this with us, Kevin, this is such a fun, illuminating discussion. Thank you, and I hope it helps someone because I think what's good about episodes like this one and the one we did last week is I know, like therapy itself is such a hard sell for some people, but then even going beyond that is

another hard sell. Like so to hear other people talking about like we say, like, the more you talk about it, the more it reduces the stigma. I think one of the hardest things about therapy is for so long we've believed that therapy is for people who are who are quote unquote crazy and who who who who needs some type of help. So even going beyond talk therapy, people start,

you know, getting self conscious about it people. So I think having people so openly talking about it that they can look at and be like, oh no, it's it's fine, it's nothing about me, it's just to help. And I think that you really hit something important about couples therapy too,

because I think people, once again that's another thing. People assume it's for couples that are that are that are at the brink, and it's the last thing and it's like, no, don't wait till you're at that point for couples therapy. Trust me, if you do it early, you probably won't

get to that point. It's to help you understand each other, you know, and also to make people feel value, because there's that tug of war in relationships that you know, people might feel undervalued or more value, or lack of understanding in the things that each other are doing or the headspace. You know, cut all the assuming out, go to a couple's therapy. Kevin, where can everyone find you? Uh, let's see lockdown at my house making barbecue random people. Um. And also I'm at k Beagle k B I E

g L at Twitter and that Kevin Beagle on Instagram. Oh, I don't follow on Instagram. Follow you actually different content? Really that sounds spicy, I know it's not. But follow Kevin on his only fans Yeah, me and Henry Cavill. Yeah. Now it'll be uh, it'll be Kevin's uh you know he's he's when he does all the poor barbecue. It'll be his only hands. Uh yeah yeah, the best friend. Um. Um, well you know me if you wait Twitter and Instagram,

if d's on Twitch, super punch Mondays through Fridays. Now we're doing five days of the week with me host in the show and then outside of that doing uh if he's on Twitch streaming video games when I should be doing this pilot. Uh. But we got some fun stuff, you know, me and writer Buddy, we're gonna be doing like digital writer's workshops and all other types of BS two have that like outlet because and yeah, there's been a weird spurt of people who have come into my

stream asking writers and writing advice. And I'm like, I'm trying to don't you see, I'm trying to kill these weird monsters when you stop reminding me of stuff I'm supposed to be doing. Uh. But yeah, Danny, what about you? Where are you? Where? Where are people going to hear that voice at miss Danny Fernandez? As you know, it's M S D A and I F E R n A N d e zy if e you and I I know at least I have officially entered the TikTok world.

Oh my god. I just did it only because it was an idea I had, and I was like, this is only a TikTok because it's using TikTok but you ran into the same problem I had. I laughed because that just happened to me too. I'm like, how does this work? I feel like a boomer? Um yeah, because my I made a Selena Michael Jordan's like meme and then it got flagged for did you add the music yourself?

For us? What? They don't have Selena's music on the exactly, and they'll just choppy if you put in music because I used music from the site, but I don't know how to do you know how the kids switch songs in their TikTok's. I don't know how they're doing that, so I'm trying to so I thought, oh, maybe I'll make the TikTok. Then I save it and then I re uploaded, but then it doesn't recognize as me sourcing it from them, so then I got kicked. So I'm

back to the rolling board. I don't know what's going on. Wow. Wow, Well I'm at I am Danny Fernandez, right, we've all had to break brand. People keep trying to take my names anyway, so he can follow me on there, and uh yeah, like we always say, stay nerdy and stay healthy.