Episode 46: Horror Noire

that beep uh today. You know, man, we have a powerhouse of a guest, a good friend of mine. We worked on a thing together way back when it was it was like a you would have liked it, Danny. It was like if Peter Pan went to college, and you know, I was me. It was our mutual friend Christopher in Cell, right, Okay. I was afraid that I was describing something we did not work on together, because

that's how bad my memory is. But I totally remember, because I remember when we first met at that table read and I was like, oh, because you know, I just saw your name, Xavier Bergen. But when I saw that it was a black person. I was like, yes, thank you. Also, good on Christopher in self for you know, getting I mean, but it's not like he was doing you a favorite. This is a you went to USC, right, Yeah, yeah, I did the whole oh man. Yeah, and you're the second person I know who went to uh the USC

Film School, and y'all all are doing great things. The other person was my friend Aaron Covington. Who wait, we knew another one? Who else? RB three? He goes by as us. Yeah, I know all of you made a Yeah, he made a he made a horror film. Ever, his h got a lot of coming up. Yeah, I know, it's exciting taking over RB three Xavier L. Bergen and Lett's introduce you first and say your whole name because you know, I know you, so I will just start

talking to you. But yeah, Xavier, you recently had a documentary come out called Horror Newir that is a study of the history of black filmmakers in the horror genre. What kind of got you started on this? Like why did you want to make this documentary? So he's an

interesting thing I always bring up. So just station of the actual documentary start with a homegirl Ashley Blackwell, who's the writer and producer, wanted them on The Bad Boy, and essentially it was based on the book It's also called a har noir by Dr Robin Our means Coleman shout out to her. So essentially she got up with Stage three Productions and they were like, you know, we want to make something that's like talking about this thing

that we barely ever see on a regular basis. So I remember them telling me how, like you know, Shuttle was interested and they were thinking about it and stuff like that. And then when Jordan's one was like, oh, let's let's pick this bad Boy up forget Out exactly, and then that's how everything really started to like push

forward with it. And once they started getting together, that's when Shutter and Stage we said like, Yo, we want to get a director behind this, but we want someone who's young black who you know, knows some stuff about this and it's actually like within the culture of it. And that's when they reached out to me about it. Yeah. Well, I had been following you, i think this past year, and so you were known for doing your threads. You're like you would keep people on the edge of their seats,

but they're there. Yeah, No, I loved it, you like, it was so funny that you gave people even on this, like even on Twitter, like which, um, you can use though as a storytelling platform if you wanted to, you know. So that's how I got to know you from that. And then further, um, you are working on a project with one of our good friends which I can't name right now, but y'all will be seen that in a year or two. So but um, I guess what what

got you into horror? Like what was the first movie or or franchise or something that you remember vividly where you're like, yes, this is it got you. I guess ignited, I want to do this. It's so funny. So you know, he um some a man Tony Todd, so you know, loving to death. And when we're at the premiere for Horror Noir, one of the things you brought ups like everybody always brings up Oh man, we watched candy Man.

Watched Candy Man's Scared as the Scaredest and it would like he tony types, how old union like eight or nine? You know, like why why why y'all watching candy Man eight or nine? What type of parents do you have. But the whole thing about it is like I specifically remember Cannyman and Horizon, those two specifically like scaring the crap out of me as a kid. I still know

why my parents even let me. Maybe I just didn't let him know I ended up seeing them, and that always just kind of stuck in my head for a long time, even before I was, you know, figuring out I want to go on the film and stuff like that, because you know, I'm a cat from like down south, like you know, Alabama, Mississippi. So growing up as a kid, like, you know, I'm watching all this type of stuff, But wasn't nobody telling me that, oh, you know what your

career could be, you could be a filmmaker. Wasn't nobody saying that for real? For real? So you know, I didn't really like get to understand the gestation of all the stuff that I liked until I got a lot older and realized this was the route that I wanted

to go. Yeah, No, it's it is funny because you know, I, like I said, since I follow you, I already knew all about this, and it's such a great concept because I do think just especially because right now I think it's safe to say we're in a renaissance of black film.

Like I just said it to myself when I saw, like, uh, that new film, uh Lina wayit is I think either producing or directing, and they just showed a teaser but it's like the two kids and then it has like the I'm gonna find the name so I can actually like shout it out properly. But I was like, man, we're in a renaissance, and it's weird because like it almost feels like where did it go? Because if you go back to the nineties, you know, we had t G I F. You had shows like uh, Family Matters

on the air, Fresh Prints and all that stuff. And in the horror too you you mentioned a candy Man, but also uh one of one movie I mentioned recently that I was so surprised. I mentioned it in the room I'm in right now and no one else saw it. But it was so big when I was a kid,

Tales from the Hood, like my anthology. I mean, you know, some of it, you know, don't hold up as well, but man if I was just so blown away that, yeah, it was such a good like we just always have been making it it's just the spotlight and how much

people are you know, really showing it. And you know, I feel like the nineties were a time where like we were making movies, but they always put it in a box where it's like, oh, that's a black movie, that's a and I feel like we're finally hopefully starting to move away from that. You know, you didn't hear

like Moonlight being called the black movie. It was like the art movie to see full stop and uh and I and you know, same thing with Black Klansmen, like you can now you know, have these movies, especially like Black Panther, you know, like you know, we just talked about that last week, but a movie like that, you know, like everyone said, like, you know, it was supposed to be done in the nineties, and I could very easily see people just kind of pushing that off to the the

side and be like, that's the black superhero movie for black people. And now you got you know, people trying to claim it for themselves, you know, like like where's my space in what kinda And it's like, well, you don't need that space, yeah, So you know, all right, so they reach out to you, you hop on and I'm assuming one of the first thing, did you read the book before you did the documentary or like when you got it your like, let's let me check this out.

So yeah, that's the thing that you know. Of course, they reached down there like yo, you're interested, Um, you know, we want you to come in and we're gonna have you pitched, because you know, they were looking at a couple of folks. Yeah, and I was like, okay, well

I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do it right, So sat down, you know, read the book, then literally beast it out like this, you know, twelve to fifteen page like you know, a type a little book of how I wanted to see it, how I wanted the different errors to come in and go through based on the

book and things to that degree. And of course, like the nice thing, it's like literally ride and shout out to you know, actually black one Daniel Burrows had already like build out something like a huge outline that already that's up some of the stuff that I was just now reading, you know, within it. Because they have been in this word, especially Ashley, for such a long time. So put it together, send it over to them, they

send it back, Send over. I sent it a couple of times, like going back and forth to see what they want any things like that, and then you stop hitting me up and I was like, oh man, maybe maybe maybe I didn't get this. And then they finally got back to me like, Yo, we love this. We want you to come onto this and you know, start shooting.

And I was just excited for it, because you know, the thing for me is like, you know, I love films, you know, I love what I do, but I also love it when I see black folks and the black and brown folks and that bad Boy. So to have something that specifically spoke to us that with us was huge for me. That's the type of stuff that I want to see in the first place. So for the me to be a director of it, to be a

part of it, that's crazy. And honestly, when I was first making I was like, Okay, I'm coming here to make this Bad Boy. Maybe it blows up and not, who cares, Like, I'm just happy to be making this, And I would have never expected the type of viral success that's like been happening with it, Like that was not something I was thinking about whatsoever, but it came with it. Yeah, yeah, and is have you done a documentary before this? So on suit very very small, like

you know, small short dots. So I did a documentary back in two thousand and eleven about the tornado that hit um Alabama, tech Loose Alabama. Back in the day. I did a documentary that specifically dealt with what it meant to be like a black woman in the mental health system. So like that was way way back before See and all that type of stuff. But you know, coming into SC and all that stuff, I focused so

much on narrative. So when they finally hit me back and I'm like, okay, I'm doing the doc well, you know it's been a second, but you know I'm down for this. Yeah. Yeah, No, that's because that's what I was saying. A lot of your work is narrative. So I was wondering what did that shift feel like? Because I feel like that almost just from a personal you know, I guess film fan perspective would give you an edge because I find the best document documentary are one that

tell a story. And you know, the argument is that all documents do. But I find that when you have a narrative director behind it, their brain is already in that mode that you're kind of pushing the story more than I feel like a lot of docs can get heavy on the information and kind of feel disjointed and not flow as well because of that. Uh is did you feel like you had that advantage or where you like, look, I'm I'm just trying to make their vision come true.

What an interesting thing when you look at her and are like, you know, for the most part, it really it literally is clips from a whole bunch of movies and talking heads, like you know, it's usually what folks will be like, Oh man, that's what it's gonna be. This,

I don't want to watch the documentary. But what we make sure we wanted to do because we literally dealing with like going for the nineteen hundreds to like the present day, And what we realized is we needed to not only make it informative, but it needed to be fun. It needed to be interesting. It needed to be the type of thing where like you're enjoying yourself as you're as you're listening to all this type of stuff. And that's something that I think we did a great job with.

And but I think even before I came in with with the entire production team with the producers, with Ashley, with Danielle, they all understood that if we're gonna get folks to watch this, it needs to be fun while also being informative in giving you the type of lessons that like you're not gonna get anywhere else, um, because you know, to be one held you like, I love USC to death, amazing school, so happy I went there, but you know, quite literally going to the school, there

are no classes like this. There's there's nothing like this, like whatsoever. Like the only place I can think of right now is Dr Coleman's classes that she teaches at her university. And then also Tonna Reeve Do who does the Sunken Place courses at u c l A. Um. I remember when I remember when you sent me the screening and I watched it and I ediately messaged you because this quote from it just stuck out so much to me, and it was it said, black history is

black horror. Can you like talk about that quote and

how and how y'all tackled that in the documentary. Well, I mean, the big thing to understand about that quote is, you know, for a lot of white folks, they have to find the other to be scared of, whether that is black people where that it is like you know, a monster from a lagoon, whether it's um, you know, robots, there's it's always a standing for something because in a lot of ways, America is set up to be a nation where white folks tend not to have the type

of things that truly like you know, um oppressed or scare them in the same way, whereas black folks, so much of the system is set up to oppress us that you know, for us, a horror is dealing with the police, a horror is dealing with the judicial system. Like all those type of things are scared to us because it's a real life thing in what we deal with as black folks can be and usually is very horrific.

So it's it's what we wanted folks to understand. What's that, you know, you take it all the way back to like you know that film Birth of the Nation one, like you know d W. Griff and it's you know, white folks, but I mean they they showed it in the White House, like Woodrow Wishon was like, man, I

love this, I like that. Probably it's still playing there to day, like literally back back during that time, they were like, this is the most accurate representation there is what and you got to think about, like this quote unquote revolutionary film to white folks during that time, is pushing the Ku Klux Klan as the saviors of America.

I don't think it needs to It can't be understated how horrifying that had to be for black folks to not only see our lives portrayed in this way, to again have black face at this time and want to bring up the fact that black uh Frederick Douglas was talking about how bad black face was back in the day, so you know, this ain't just no new thing. And then you have this showing their lives and showing the folks that are lynching and killing us being held as

the heroes. There is no words harder than that. And what we needed to show with horror her from you know d. W. Griffith to um, you know King Kong two Engagi that a lot of times what you were noticing, especially back then, was that white folks were either using us black people or taking our features and pushing them into standings for us for that fear, and that's something we needed folks to understand about, like how because the biggest thing we have to understand, like Hollywood from then

to now is the biggest exporter of culture worldwide, Hollywood shows on the screens is what more often than not, the world thinks of certain people. And it's a horrifying thing to think about that for such a long time and even to this day, that we still have these stereotypical, horrific and unfair characterizations of black and brown people as the other, as something to be scared of. And that was a very big point we had to make clear

upfront when it came to the documentary. So I never heard of, seen or known about this in gagy movie. And then I just did a quick search and I was like, damn, we only seventeen minutes in it. I'm already mad. So just just a quick brief for anyone. In God is a nineteen thirties pre code exploitation film. It purports to be a documentary about Sir Hubert Warrens Wednesday of London on an expedition to the Belgian Congo, and depicts a tribe of guerilla worshiping woman encountered by

an explorer. The film claims to show a ritual in which African women are given over to guerrillas as sex slaves, but in actuality was mostly filmed in Los Angeles, using white actresses in black face in place of natives. It was produced and distributed by Nat Spitzer's Congo Pictures, which

had been formed expressly to make the film. Although marketed under the pretense of being an ethnographic film, the premise was a fabrication, leading to the Motion Pictures UH Motion Picture Producers and Distribution Association to retract any involvement with the film. So, yeah, that's that's what that is for those who might be wandering. That's such a good point.

And that's and to really get into that. We talked about this a little bit in The Horror and even furthermore in Twilight Zone, and that fact that true horror UH kind of borrows from real human nature, and and then that kind of using that same psychology, This all makes sense. And that's why I like get Out is

such a simplistic idea and why it's so powerful. And it's so powerful when you really have to understand that you really don't have to be black to get get out and get why it's scary, But it goes that much further when you are black and that and it is crazy to think that you know, yeah, they really were just afraid of us, you know, back then for them to just do this in And this also shows the power of media and how like films like this can perpetuate so many stereotypes and so many unearned fears

that you know, someone can see a child and think they have these superpowers because you know, this type of stuff is just threatened in the DNA. Uh. And it's like, you know, I think I made this kind of correlation before, but as creators, that's something I don't take lightly. And just like Uncle Ben said, as with great power comes

great responsibility. There's power to your words. There's power to the things you create, and they can have good consequences and they can very much so have bad consequences, like these movies like Birth of a Nation and Engagi and it's and it seems like it's a great mind in the zitgeis brain thing too, because um, I don't know if all of y'all saw Black Klansmen, but they also splicing clips from Birth of a Nation and you can see and it and it is jarring to see, like

if you did not know that was the movie. You would think that it's something fabricated by Spike Lee to know that that is a thing that people went and and in the same way they were doing in the movie, like watching it like a popcorn flick. That's what people were doing. I mean, like you said, it was played in the White House. Um. But you know, that's why I think things like like Core Noir is so important because we still are talking about birth of a Nation,

like we might have gotten Gaggy. I'm sure they are praying we forget those movies, but like, yeah, no one is out here like highlighting the other stuff that we that you cover in the film. And I actually want to get into it and really start talking about like those black films. And we'll do that right after these

messages and we're back. And I did want to say before we hop in if he I saw you on Twitter today batting for Rod Sterling with all the John Wayne stuff, because it's so frustrating that this excuse that like, oh everyone was racist back then, and it was like Noah, and I went back and I watched that interview and what it was because remember we were saying that Rod Sterling was really which is great because you know, Jordan is now taking over that mantel I'm doing twilight Zone.

Um Is. I watched that interview that I was talking about, and he and the story he wanted to tell was on Emmett Till and the studio kept essentially bastardizing it and changing it to the point that it was unrecognizable, where he was like, I no longer am going to

be a part of this, but he did try. Like That's the thing though, is that he was saying, no, they kept trying to censor us um to the point that they got into this discussion about pre censorship, and it was essentially that writers would um not even try.

They wouldn't even because because what we were saying with Twilight Zone, which I'm so excited to see what Jordan is going to deal with it, is that a lot of those stories were about people of color and what they went through but this but studios wouldn't let them essentially show it. So instead it had to be an alien or it had to be you know, something like that, because it was easier for white audiences to feel sorry

for an alien than for a person of color. I know, I mean, I I always call that even though this comes much later, the The X Men Effect where made a hole like that whole series is about racism, but they had to use mutants to get it, and and it still didn't work if you look at some of these comments from comic Comic book, still work. He tried, he did everything. He gave you all the clues, Mr Policeman. Uh, let's yeah, so let's talk about some of these films.

So not a Living Dead, that is super cool. It's actually if you haven't I mean, I don't know how you haven't seen it, but if you haven't seen it, you can watch it. I believe it's fair use. You can watch on YouTube. It's only a bunch of different cinema platforms that you can check out. But that was

really important. I remember that. And even though spoiler, I guess it's not a spoiler because it's like what fifty or sixty years old that he dies, but I do know that that was It was such a stark contrast. Then when get Out happened that it was like having not having to go through that again, like getting to actually have a having your protagonists live. Yeah. Yeah, it's a huge thing because you know, you know, so not

a living dead like was truly made it amazing? Is you know You've got Dwayne Drums as a as the inneritative character in there, and it's this black man who's taken over everything, who's beating up white people, taking out white zombies. And you know, Tanana Reeve brings it up in in the documentary where I'm she said, like this

has to be horrifying. Is he something like this to racists, like you know, for them to see stuff like this, especially with everything that was going on in the late you know sixties, you know, around that time, and the juxtaposition with it is like, you know, as powerful as it was what happened to him, he still got killed

at the end. And while that might be realistic or feel right, I think what made Get Out so strong is that, like, you know, we've seen the realistic stuff we've seen you know, black men in like you know, prison suits. We've seen us get constantly killed and maimed and lynched and destroyed not only in real life but

also in film and then also in horror films. So you know, one thing that Uh Jordan brings up in the documentary is the fact that, like, you know, the reason why he went to right, he did where he lives, and he succeeds and he gets out of it. Is because you know, as black folks, we needed something to applaud, we needed something to lift up. And like essentially and sometimes happening to the nineties two with Tells from the Hood, where we're not getting the justices that we need in

real life. So at least in some things in entertainment, in the films that we're making, can we see some of this restorative justice that we're not getting, you know,

right now in America? And that's something that was true back then and in the sixties, during the nineties who tell Us from the Hood, and then even more so, like you know, with get Out, Coming Out, and that was just it was huge, Like literally I still remember, you know, being to get out and seeing them you know, cock the cock car come up and I still remember, like you know, some of the white was like, yes, he's okay, and you know, I'm just likely I mean, yeah, exactly,

that's that's all I see some cock cars. I see them size. That's not a good thing. So to to to see my man come and it's not a con and it's his homeboy and He's like, Yo, let's go, we getting out of here. That was that was huge. That was huge because that's not something we get to see on a regular basis for you know, black people, for black characters in in films in general. Like a great example is, have y'all got the chance to watch bird Box? Yeah? Saw it? Yea, yeah, yeah, So you

know I enjoyed bird Box. I enjoyed it. But you know, folks act well, you know, we're doing so much better and things are like, you know, changing, and you're not seeing the same stereotypes that you saw back then. No, no, no, no, no no, no, let's talk about a little rail. In bird Box, he meets them maybe like twenty minutes into the film, maybe five to ten minutes later, he's like, you know what I'm gonna do with this, you know,

crazy zombie man like trying to get inside. I'm just gonna run straight in there, and I'm gonna sacrifice myself for all these white folks. And that's literally the sacrificial Negro. That is one of the stereotypes we see on a regular basis all the way back to the nine hundreds too now and we're still dealing with those type of

stereotypes that we need to push back against. In the film that came out that came out this year last yea literally this year, like right now this year, the two of them like little and intrevante, you know, And I guess maybe you can kind of say like O came around with the people, he came to love a little bit. Mo. I never liked the fact of that one that you know, it's like what two, three, five years later and he still got an immaculate haircuts that

like did you save your Barbara? And then he died five days before they found you. Also, he was just jacked, like right, because you have a different body Like even I was like, even if you're lifting like logs and stuff, your body type is a little bit different than like straight up just doing squats to eat so much to keep that that that huge pack them biceps. I was like,

not not realistic, y'all. But what we pay attention to those two specifically, like again like who lives in the uh in the Sandral book, in the Little Kids and our two black characters. You know, we don't see any black woman in it. I don't think we saw any black woman in it, but the two black carreters. We

had the two men, both of them. We're justified or not, We're still the sacrificial negroes, which is a trot we see on a regular basis even now in h Well, it's it's funny because you you see these things, unless you're like actively trying to combat it, you do see these things pop up because it's just so as creatives, we put out what we ingest, and unless you're actively trying to go against the grain, actively looking at the work, because sometimes you know, right now I'm writing, you know,

going through like doing rewrites on once it right now, and going through I see myself do certain things and like, you know, so like the lead of this show is supposed to be an Indian female. That that's that's what what the current plan is. But the name isn't you know, particularly Indian. It's just a typical what what would be perceived as a quote unquote white name. And because of that, I find myself, you know, just falling into the trope of like in my head, are automatically making her white?

And then you know, and then you know, obviously we'll be like, no, well, what what speaks to her? Because obviously the one of the showrunner is Indian, so he's like, this is this is this would be like this, that would be like that type of stuff. And it's so crazy how quickly like if you don't explicitly make in your mind that this person is this race, your mind defaults to white because that's all the media we've been

taken in. And that's and when we're like, Okay, I'm just trying to create some of what I've been watching you do that. I had to do that when I started writing sketch, because you know, right around the time I started writing sketch was pointed out that you know, I think we had the issue with U. S and L, you know, where they had no black women, and then in general most comedy things were heavily men based. So when I wrote sketches, I just would make it half

and half, no matter what. Fift me women and and like the question be like why are you doing it? Why not like, oh, you're just trying to, You're just trying to, And I was like, yeah, I am, because the only way to change it is to change it, and there's no reason when you look at like I. And that's what I found is when I would go back and look at the rooms, like there's no reason that this person has to specifically be you know, uh,

a man. There's no reason there whereas like, you know, we when you make like a person of color or a woman and thing you like the just the description of which, by the way, I actually haven't seen uh night have Living Dead uh most because like I was like, oh, I typically don't care for black and white movies, mostly because I'm like funny enough, like, oh, well, that's just like old movies made for white people. I didn't know

the lead was black. I would have saw this yesterday, you know, like like but the thing of them at the way, like him being in this role in eight it was the It was the first time an African American actor was cast to star in a horror film and one of the first times in American cinema where a person of color was given an important role when the script does not explicitly call for one. And that

and that's how it was. So it's funny how like like we had to work past you know, them doing black face, and then after that, like it was only if you were playing like a slave, you know, or if you watch a lot of old Western since that's

in the zeitgeis right. Now, you know, you had uh, Mexicans playing Mexicans and you had Native Americans sometimes playing natives like you had to be your person, and that seems to be the weird like new de facto argument against diversity in film wars, like well, we should just have people playing the roles they do, like you know, like, oh,

this is actually great. It's what uh Vigo Mortenson when they kind of brought up like the writer of this and why you know it's a white writer and black and he was like, well, he was like look if if if This was a very hilarious clip because when you watch the faces, they are all types of shade.

But he's like, but if you know me, Herschela wants to write a story about a white or an Italian guy from YadA, YadA, YadA, he can do that, so we shouldn't be saying X should be X. And I was like, well, there's a difference because there's like you're thinking about it in a totally different way, like like for example, if we go back to the room example, like I said, my showrunners Indian, so he is making sure there's authenticity there when you have, like you know,

and I'm saying, I don't think any white person could ever write black stories or black roles. But there there's a level of authenticity that isn't gonna set off their alarms. And sometimes you run into the mistake of just just re skinning a white roll. But there's like levels to people of color. Their experiences are different. There's gonna they're

gonna react to things differently. One of our good friends, I won't say his name because you know, not trying to blest this out, but he was doing a short and and in the short he was saying like it was him and his buddy, they're both black, and they like they were too high in the short, and so they were like, let's call the cops. And he was like, we black people would never do that. Black people, you would never call the cops if you were too high.

And and you know, obviously the wider you know, I got a little we got a little like defensive, and he was like, oh, well you know this, and it's like, no, that's someone telling you of the experience. And I could have told you right there, like no, they that wouldn't be their first instinct to call the cops. That's never their instinct. Ever, we were if you and I were

on a panel. I think it was at Wonder Con or something, but it was with Steven L. Sears, who remember he was the writer for zena Warrior Princess, And even on the panel he was like, um that excuse, Like he was like, it's actually the easiest is to write for straight white guys because that's the world that we live in. That's the world that's been set up

for them. It's actually the easiest to rite for them because that's how that's the world that cinema has been reflective of and everything is you know in this world is reflective of them, and it's much harder to write a different perspective. Yeah, and it's and it's all mostly because you've shared that experience. I'm hoping ten years down the line, after Xavier's fifth Academy Award, you know, a young white kid can write a black story because he's

just obsessed with Xaviers movies. And even then there still won't be that full authenticity, but at least he'll have a little more information than he does. Now, what would you watch? Now, here's something I want to bring up to that I think is interesting. So we're having all of these discussions about diversity and inclusion and um, you know how we want to get more you know, black folks and brown folks women into these roles. And you know a lot of folks think that, oh well, this

is a new discussion, this is only happening recently. That's not true, like literally, okay, So taking it back to horror, you take it all the way back to you know, the the nineties nineties and you have you know, Oscar me Show and you have Spencer Williams. So you know these guys, did you know films like Son of Ingagi or The Blood of Jesus or you know, Marching On. This was literally in the you know twenties, thirties and

forties too black men. Now most folks know Spencer Williams um from Andy and Amos, which is gonna Old Susco and then Oscar michhow was quite literally this black man who was sick and in the in the in the early nineteen hundreds was sick of the betrayals of how black folks were being done and said, I'm gonna self finance my own films so we can see the actual black experience from our own eyes. So again, like you know, anybody who's listening to this, go look them up. Spencer Williams,

Arsking Me Show. These were Caster was doing this type of stuff from the nineteen hundreds to like the nineteen forties and fifties before things, you know, things started to get more centralized and they got you know, boxed out,

especially Arsking Me Show. But it speaks to the fact that the problems that we're facing right now in the industry, there's two cats, two black men that were trying to combat this almost like you know, fifties, sixty years ago, like you know, even further back than that, And that speaks to how just ingrained this is in the idea that this is now just a new issue. It's just

not it's not true. It's not true. We've been dealing with this for a long time to where I can literally give you examples of folks trying to combat this, specifically in a genre of film from the nineteen twenties and thirties. Like you know, it's just it's crazy to even understand that that's like something that we have in the first place. But it speaks to the fact that these type of pushes that we're trying to do. It's

not new. It didn't just starting twenty This is something that's been, you know, happening all the way back over a century ago. And really it's just the fact that for a lot of folks, they're just now hearing about it or caring about it. Yeah. I did want to say before we wrap up on that A Living Dead that George A. Romero you touched on this on the documentary that he was saying if you kind of what you were saying, that they didn't specify that they wanted

a black actor. It just so happened that Duane Jones was the best actor that they saw, so it was like, he has to have it. I think that is amazing. And I know for you and I like, like you were saying, I realized, in working on these rooms and now seeing casting and what they bring in, if you don't specify of all ethnicities, if you don't write that on there, they will default to white. And I started to realize that working in these writers rooms where I

was like I had to specifically put it on there. Um, it's just so frustrating. It's frustrating. Um. But we will get into more of these films. We just have to take a quick break. We're going to continue the conversation right after this can welcome back. I hope you enjoyed those messages. We are back still here with my man's Xavier Bergen uh Danny also sitting across from me. Now that we've checked everyone in, let me posit another question.

So we talked about Night of Living Dead. So what's another you know, black horror film you talk about in the movie that you know, what's maybe one that you maybe didn't see before, something that kind of uh, I don't know, surprise here. You went to film school, so I doubt there's many things you haven't seen before. So you know, interestingly enough, like you know, of course I had had heard of it a lot, and you know,

you heard jokes and stuff about it. But it wasn't until I jumped into doing this that I finally watched Blackula. And here's the thing. You know, a lot of folks, it's just a old, you know, black sportation film. There's nothing good or interesting or powerful or culturally connective about it. It's just you know, throw anything from you know, back then. But during that time, Blackula was huge, absolutely huge, in the Black Sportation era, and on a bigger level, it

was directed by William Marshall, like a black man. And here's the thing, Like you go back to the seventies, there was there wasn't no black folks who were actually helm directing and writing films like it just wasn't like

the Black exportation era, you know, black exploitation. And the whole thing about it was that like while we were finally getting you know again Tonano reeved and dcor Um robint Armans Coleman brings it up that we were getting on the screen, you were seeing us, but the representation of us was not good because you know, we were all, you know, pimps, hose, you know, slapping folks, shooting stuff,

shaft type of stuff, the pimp type of stuff. And the whole thing about it is what made Blackla really stick out was that William Marshall was a twenty three

year old black man directing this type of film. Like, first off, it'sn't heard of for a black person to even get to direct at that time, still not easy now, but for him to be twenty three years old doing this is unprecedented, and he brings up I mean one of the One of the biggest things that really stuck with me is when we were doing the interviews for it, and you know, Willen Marshall was talking about this and he specifically brought up how even though he was the

director of the film, everyone else underneath them we're all white. Everyone else above him, we're all white. And he literally had to fight fight with them to actually get off the vision that he was trying to make, because even for them, it still was like this, this is a black man direct and he doesn't need to have the type of power that we would give to a you know, a Ra Marro or someone else you know that was

you know, doing this type of stuff. And what killed me a little bit is he talked about this and you could tell that this was a man who did something that was culturally important, but he didn't get to have the career that he should have. If you go up and look up his credits, he looked at William Marshall.

He did Black like he did a couple of other things TV stuff, but it's not how much there and you realize that he made one of the biggest films in the seventies, the early seventies, and that still wasn't enough for him to actually build out a career as a filmmaker. And it's just crazy to think about the marginalization that comes into that and what that means, and how like, you know, if we didn't have someone like him,

we wouldn't be able. I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing right now, like we wouldn't be able to do during now without William Marshall. But to the regular person, they don't even know Black, they don't know William Marshall, or they treat Black as a joke without understanding how culturally significant that is, not only within horror,

but just within the larger film history. What were some of them films that you did enjoy, I mean aside from get out, Like, what were some of the other films that you talked about in the documentary that you did actually that weren't as problematic? Oh man, So all of them? Okay, unfortunately, a lot of them, no matter what, are somewhat you know, probably so I think a good example is, like, you know, the Girl with all the Gifts. I don't know if you guys have seen that one.

I haven't, but I saw a like it was a side by side film comparison, I was like, oh, I need to see this so like, for example, that one is amazing. It's it's a really good film, like and wants you check it out, and you know, it's kind of reminiscent of not Living Dead in that, like they weren't trying to make it for a little black girl, but you know, she came in. She just killed it and they decided to go with her. In the social commentary that came out of it, being specifically a black

girl made it and again Tonana rebrought this up. It just made it sharper and stronger and more uh concise in comparison to maybe if they had just done it with a little white girl or you know something you know to that degree, Um, I'm trying to think of something else that you know, Pops, because all of them like it's only really recently now, like of course you think of tales, talesmanhood like you know, of course, I think that it's one that you didn't have some problematic

stuff there, um to you know, to a degree, you know, one of the big things Paula I think about a Paula Jay Parker and seeing like you know, women getting beating things to that degree isn't great, but it's still pushed a lot of the restorative justice that we weren't seeing. And literally, I remember one of the episodes had like, you know, a a guy playing like trying to become

the president and talking about being a real American. And it's interesting because this was being made back in the nineties and it's completely reflective what we're seeing with Trump right now, but then also reflective of what you know, Ronald Reagan was doing. And the whole thing for me is like, there is very little difference between Ronald Reagan and Trump, you know when it comes to this type

of stuff. But just with the question that you're that you're bringing up because of the fact that you know, even though all of these feels good and you should listen to it, you should watch it. Um, there aren't too many that aren't problematic in their own way because they still fell into one of the troupe like some of these tropes, or they were still being done by white folks like for example, Canny man Cannon is amazing. I love Kenny man Um, It's great, Tony Todd is

amazing it. But again it falls again that one falls specifically into one that we were seeing all the way back for Birth of a Nation, where it's still this black man. He's a villain, he's magical to a degree, but he's a black man who is still coveting over

this white woman that he has to take in. And you know that's just like we gotta see it again, or you know, you take Abby for example, from the seventies, where it's this black woman and she is killing people by death and that literally you can say it's a it's an expiration of sexual lisperation, but you could also see that, like there is this thing about black womanhood being scary to a lot of people, especially black sexuality, because one of the things they do to black men

and black women is either they're over sexualizing us or they're de sexualizing us. So you know, that's a problem. I think the only thing, the only film I can really really think about that if you want to see something where doesn't fall into these type of tropes, and it's just truly amazing, artistic, strong film is guns you in his You should take out the time to look up that film and to watch it. It's absolutely amazing.

It's very artistic, made back I think it was back in the seventies at that point, and it was a film that's very smart for his time, dealt with you know, what it means to be a vampire, a black vampire, and like, you know what it means to to deal with addiction and you know, using that you know, via blood.

But you know, one of the things we bring up in the in the documentary is so interesting is even and it's something that that you brought up if you were, like, you know, there's something culturally that we as black folks are as a black and brown person, you're gonna understand

about your culture war that maybe a white person can't write. So, for example, in that movie, the main character a vampire, well to do rich established he's still scared of the police, still scared of the police as a vampire that could

take them out, but he's still worried about that. He's still worried about the white folks around him because even at becoming this supernatural creature, he still has to think about some of the things that we as you know, black folks have to deal with from the first place. So if there was any film that as a horror buff or a film, you know, a ficionado obviously say that that you should go check out from back in the day at least take out the time to go

watch ganjan Hes. So for everyone listening this is this is definitely a film fan uh film nerd episode. Uh. Just a quick by the way, Ganja and Hess came out on four nine, which, based on the title alone, is tight. Uh. But what give give your elevator pitch to Hord no Noir and why why our listeners should check it out right now as soon as this episode ends. Harvard Noir is a documentary that literally has never been

done before. There is no documentary that deals with the history of African Americans, Black Americans from the nineteen hundreds to prey in within the horror genre. You are quite literally seeing the first film of is kind. It is historic. Be a part of it, learn something new, find out about a history that most folks in America are not going to teach you about. That's why you should watch this. Like, watching this is allowing yourself to be a part of

history being made, and I think that's important. Oh, if you're not already downloading it, I don't know what else is gonna get you to watch it. Thanks for listening. By the way, shout out to everyone in the nerd fan for all your suggestions. We get into it. Y'all got a lot of things that y'all want us to cover. We're gonna get to it week by week. That's a job security. So I'm not even mad about I did want to say so, I just a gunja and Hessan

Dwayne Jones is the star of it. Yes, so Doyanne Dwyane is just He's a He's an amazing actor like honestly. And and one thing I want to bring I do want to bring up in this life for anyone that's listening. Um, you know you'll be able to find me on social media and stuff like that, but I'm not. I'm not here to plug my social media. What I want to tell folks, if you like a black and brown you're making, you know you're making your horror feature, your horror script.

Hit me up straight up. I want to read what you're making. I want to find the next thing and it doesn't need to be get out, but if it deals with us and it deals with horror, reach out to me. I want to find these stories because I want to keep the history of horror noir going because the whole thing about it is we just don't need a documentary. We need to see more of these films

being made and put out there. We're having a renaissance, but that renaissance doesn't happen without the type of people who are out there who want to get this type of work made. And I want to be a part of that as a writer but then also has directed. So if you've got an idea, you've got a script. It's hard. It's deal with black and brown folks. Reach out to me, eat look at this. Every week we

give people more info on how to break into this industry. Yeah, yeah, I know, this is this is I feel like we went ran the true gamut because we got we did uh development, and then now we're doing film. That's a good thing. I hope y'all. I hope everyone's having a good time. I mean, I don't know everyone here has had a long day. I know it was like man, but you know, uh, you know me. If you on social media, I F Y n W A d I W E on Twitter and Instagram, feel free to wish

me a happy birthday. Today is my birthday. Yeah, when it drops it's going to be my birthday. No, my type A wrote down your birthday already. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm planning a little something for us to do, so I'll be in touch. But yeah, you know if if he's on Twitch. Thanks to all the nerd fam coming in and y'all are starting to get way active in that discord. So thanks for pulling up discord dot g g slash Salt Squad. We got Nerdive sent once again.

Shout out to Fleckery for always dropping those footnotes in there. So if you're too lazy to click on the app, it's right there waiting for you. Shout out to Uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna shout out some more mods. Definitely gonna shout out so I said flak Largo since is great. You know he loves Danny's post. Danny has helped him a lot. Uh so big big shout out on that. Danny just speaking out and being herself as really he always tells me. I feel like he doesn't want to

bug Danny, so I just know you can. I get overwhelmed sometimes, but I try to tweet and respond to most of all. Good. Now you're making it seem like I was being salty, but I was just saying it. Uh. You know. Also Razarick those guys for holding it down always flew for one of my new mods doing your Thing, and also marred by guests because he was complaining that I shouted at all the other mods out and not him on the podcast. As for shows coming up, you

can catch your boy. Uh, you'll post about it. I'll post about him to look there. Danny Well Xaviera was going to say, where can people catch horn Noir? Oh? Yeah, so you can find horn Noir on shutter dot com. You can find shutter dot com or you can pick up Shutter streaming app and either. Thing I'll tell everybody is, you know, they've given out a seven day free trial, so y'all know what that means. I'm not gonna say

anything else, but you know what that means. All I'm asking you to do is just watch my documentary and if you stay, stay but you know, just watch the documentary, tweet about it. Please let them know that you watched it because so many I've seen so many people tweet about it in the community. Yeah, it's it's been amazing how many folks are and literally if you watch it, hit me up on Twitter x l n B or

hit up horror noir film on Twitter. Um, you'll find me on Instagram XLMB stories, hard nor Film on Instagram or just hard normal on Facebook. Let me know if you're watching it and if you like it. I love it. It's literally my first feature film, so it's it's it's it's a fresh rod and tomatoes. I want to see y'all tell me how dope go? Tell um? Um, I'm at miss Danny Fernandez on all the things, and uh yeah,

I don't know. Follow me on Twitter because that's where I tweet my my shows and my appearances and stuff. So um oh yeah. Thank you to everyone that's been going to te public dot com slash nertificent and showing us in your merch. We love it. We love it so much. And Iffy and I have been reposting on our instant stories and sharing, and thank you to every and that took a second to go rate us on iTunes and really doesn't make a difference. We appreciate y'all, and as we always say, stay nerdy.