Episode 40: The Punisher`

the did it we did? Yeah, we're we're here. We're back, and we're talking about The Punisher. Wait, no, what is the show? If he said the show, welcome to Nerdificent I am if you and that other delicious voice that sounds weird want to say, but I'm gonna stick with that other delicious voice. You is Danny Fernandez. And uh, we are talking about The Punisher because The Punisher has a new has season two dropping on Netflix this weekend.

This is not an ad for them at all, but please, if you would like to comp our Netflix, it's like five dollars. Look, you know, I'm down with it because someone I don't know if you saw that tweet where someone was like, Hey, I'm getting ready to go see d v Z Browley and I have never seen a dragon Ball Z ever. So I got to listen to the dragon Ball episode and it got me up to speed, and I'm like, great, but what a way to jump in from just early dragon Ball dragon Ball Z and

go straight into Browley. You're you're in for a real treat, and it's gonna be to go back from that if I think I've told you. But people get mad because like my friends will be like, where can I where should I start? I'm like, well you could, you know, you could do Kai or you could dragon Ball Z Kai or you could and people like no, they have to go from the beginning. Goku was a big you know, it's like with dragon Ball, and like, well, you're not

gonna get people. I mean I think you could. Technically even just watching you get you caught up. All the important parts of dragon Ball are recapped in Z. You can start with Z if you want to, and Z is pretty much where the thick newest cannon is, where the adults are, and where vegeta vegeta doesn't exist. Um, so we we have a guest who as an expert on The Punisher and on many things. He has a show, UM Collider Heroes over at Collider, Mr Koy, Jon Drow,

How's hey, how's it going? Gita is where dragon Ball is hurt? For me, it's over nine thousand as the beginning of dragon Ball before that is something, but is really This is why I brought you on here, and because last year when The Punisher came out on Netflix, we were messaging each other so much. We have a love of John Burnthal and UM and that show. Yeah, we would just send each other memes like I'm so glad I had somebody else at like one am when I was watching the show to send it to, because

nobody else in my life cared as much. We always responded so quickly, like somehow we were both always watching Punisher at the same time, like it's a full show, but sometimes always like two in the morning, John burn Tall, Yeah, I'll respond to this, and I was always ready with new ones. I think I sent you a picture like a John burn Thall like Punisher toy in the Christmas tree or something. And then it turned into Tom Hardy holding puppies because the poppy transition, because two rugged men

with their dogs. There is an entire Instagram that's just Tom Hardy holding puppies. I show as many people that as I can. I think it's really important for the culture. I think that the comic society needs to know. Let me tell you that this was my official introduction kind

of to the I mean the Punisher. I think I had seen the two thousand and four films that when it came Jane Yes with Thomas Jane, which we'll get into, but I um, I basically was introduced to him really in uh In when he showed up in Daredevil on Netflix, and and it made me like John Burnthal so much that I went back and watched The Walking Dead, which I had never seen, just because I liked him. That's

that's start of the opposite of most people. I discovered Parks and Wreck because I enjoyed nick A from in the author. Yeah. I seen Parks and I was like,

this guy writes some good books. Who's this? I mean, what's really funny is I've done because um coy you and if you have both competed on screen Junkies and stuff, and I have also competed on screen Junkies and um one for series that I don't even watch, which I watched now, but like it's just because it's so in the zeitguys and I live online that I wasn't watching Game of Thrones, and I won my Game of Thrones around against people that actually did just because I know

all the memes and the jokes. And that was the same with The Walking Dead, where I never really had to watch it to know what was going on. And there's an art to arguing about pop culture that a lot of people don't realize. You need to know how to shape things, like I thought both of you and both like you did you both, and we're all still friends here on purpose. See that's what That's what happens

when you fight good. It's an honor. So I've I discovered Punisher in the nineties with the Spiderman animated series, so I was like five or seven, I think I started, so i'd have been like seven years old, and Punisher was one of those characters that didn't make sense in that show at all because you couldn't really shoot guns. Everything was lasers, so they introduced a Punisher without guns.

So he's always been a fascinating character to me because he's the epitome of it depends on the writer, and the character can be the thinnest character on the earth, or it can be John Burnhall. And what's really impressive is this generation only knows Punishers, this really well written character because people discovered him like you, whereas he's a garbage character about half of his run, like he's a

very poorly written like gun toting. Yeah, there's a reason that symbol represents a lot of parts of the country we don't need to represent. So it's a really interesting character because he can be as nuanced as John Burnhall, but he can also be a guy who shoots big

and flexies. He was a product of that and like nineties Marvel, you know where where it's or not even nineties popular nineties comic book in general, when it's like, let's go crazy and just like that's the Punisher, everyone outside of the Netflix era is aware of where it's like, I'm the guy who's gonna shoot him up, and it's in big guns and leather and straps and all the belts and all the pockets on the belts and no hands, ankle gun, ankle knife, ankle pouch. What's in there? More

guns and then they were. But that's a fun thing, and it's something I want to kind of even kind of park on for a hot second, just in comics where it's funny how it really is the writer. A writer can really take a comic book or franchise you really don't care about and really make you super interested, Like I think Jeff Lobes Red Hulk run is. You know, I could not have cared about Red Hulk until Jeff Lobes started writing for it, or you know, or anything.

Bendes has his finger everything. Ben Sachs, I'm like, I'll at least try it. Yeah, brew baker Is brings things a flavor to things that it's just always so fun to check out. So if you read a comic and you're like, oh, I do not like this character, but there's a writer who maybe wrote a comic that you do like, definitely check out that character written by that comic if that is available, because that might change your opinion.

Like Jerry Dugan, Brian Possana on Deadpool is what I send everyone too, because Deadpool is often written poorly as well, and if you can find the right like they're both comedians, Brian past is literally a stand up, so turning people onto that voice. Then sometimes you learn to like characters enough you can forgive other things, and I think Punisher is a great example of that. The Netflix show is

so good you can forgive other things. Yeah, sure, like War Journal, but when you've watched it, after watching Punish, you're like John Burnthal, this comic is awesome. Yeah. So let's get into who the Punisher is. Francis Oh, I love that. That's his real name. Francis Frank guess so Um is a fictional character appearing in American comic books published by Marvel So. The character was created by Gary Conway and artist John Room made a senior and Ross Andrew,

with publisher Stan Lee green lighting the name. The Punisher made his first appearance in The Amazing Spider Man number one nine cover dated February nineteen seventy four. So that issue is the iconic cover and it's so expensive. It's one of the I have fifty nine Spider Man's left, and I have every run of every title in history, and this is one of the fifty. Need because I wanted a good condition. Somebody send it to But it's it's amazing how this has stood the test of time

because it's one of the most recent issues. I need, I need, like number one and stuff. But then one twenty nine is this coveted issue because it's a beautiful yellow cover. It's him with the crosshairs on Spider Man, and he was meant to be a one off villain. He didn't show up again UNTILSS You Won thirty five. The Punisher's second appearance is one thirty five, which means that's six months later because back then you'd have to wait to get the letters back from the fans and

then decided to use the character. Yeah, he was supposed to be just the flash in the pan. This is the one note villain, and then the fans loved him. One thirty five came back and it was then like two or three years he had his own little mini So he's been beloved from the beginning because he's so different from Marvel usually puts out. There's not a lot of gun toting vigilante anti heroes there are now, but this was a new thing. But this was also the time of the mob like coming up, you know, and

he is an Italian American vigilanti. Yeah, so it is um interesting. I feel like that that like the same thing that you guys were talking about with the nineties, because the eighties nineties we had like because he's also a war veteran, so we had like g I. Joe was really big back then those toys. And also he

was just kind of starkly different. You know, you had all these heroes who were like super do get dogs, and this is a guy who like doesn't mind murdering, kidnapping, using extortion, coercion, threats of violence, and torture to basically fight crime. So there's something a whole new flavor. It was like, oh yeah, that's a cool way to fight crime.

And from a visual standpoint, you throw him again Spider Man, a red and blue spanbex clad heroes like the most and then you've got this guy in black and white with a pseudo mullet and a broken nose, Like he looks like the opposite of Spiderman every way. And I think that was a lot of his appeal was this was an age of leaving the Silver Age going into Golden Age. I think the Silver Age had just ended up like Issue two when Gwen Stacy died, that effectively

into the Silver Age of comics. To the point that comics change size, which is fascinating, Like it was less than a year earlier that comics had physically changed how they were made. And so he's coming up into the Golden age of comics, post silver Age, and it is the crime era of comic books. You've got like the gangster books you've got you know, hammer Head was really

important and big. Then you've got the Tombstone. You've got all these mafia so characters, and then you've got a guy that takes them out the same way they dish it out, and that's fascinating for comic books. Yeah, what I was gonna say is when he said he has a broken nose, that it's funny they picked John Burnhall because John Burnhall has said that he's broken his nose fourteen times. I remember once I was listening to A used to get in a lot of fights, which was

funny because I watched him. He is an amazing actor. He actually went to acting school in Russia. He got accepted and went over there and said it really changed his life. And it's so fascinating listening to him because I was like, oh, I would never date you because when I see him, know when I see him as an actor, I'm like, oh my gosh, Like I'm in love with him. Granted he's married and has three kids,

but like, and then when I hear him listening. When I listened to him and he talked about how many fights he would get in, how alpha he was like you know all of that, I'm like, oh, yeah, we never would have made it. That is not my type. Just like punch and getting fights all the time over there, And I'm gonna show him what's you're staring at your but well, he's gonna be steering him a fist. But what I find fascinating John Burnthal in particular is he

looks more like Punisher than anyone should. Like his nose is broken in the same spots, his forehead is the same ratio, Like he actually looks like John im to Senor was like, one day, well you know this boy. You know what's so funny is that he was killed off on The Walking Dead, which this isn't a spoiler. This has been out for like what seven years or something, and he's set and that was kind of like, you know,

that was that was a huge show for him. He was in it for two seasons and and but then he later said if he hadn't been killed off, he wouldn't have been the Punisher, Like he wouldn't have gotten that. So that is so cool to think of it that way when sometimes you think like this is oh my gosh, I just lost my job, you know, on the biggest show ever, and then it's like, oh no, now you have your own series and it's one of the biggest shows ever. So that's really cool. And he wasn't on

my radar. Sorry, he wasn't on my radar for Punisher. He wasn't like in my fan cast. He wasn't someone I was like he could play. And then once they cast and I was like, wait, how did I not see the guy that looks just like Punisher? And that's what I was gonna say is he was one of the very few people that when they cast, everyone was like yeah. Like usually when someone's cast is like what no, and it's like you have to get used to it, and there's like debates and some people like it, some

people don't. But this was the one casting where people were like, yep, I would say the same for because we were talking earlier before we started recording about hell Boy when David Harbor was announced as hell Boy, I was like, yep, yep, I see that. And both of those are tall orders because their legacy characters. Ron Hellman just was the Hellboy three just now didn't exist like

it was due to shoot and be a movie. So it's not like Ron Perlman had a retirement the end of hell Boy Too spoiler alert from eight years ago. She's pregnant. So Ron Perlman was supposed to be Hellboy again. So for us to accept David Harbor so quickly, and then with John Bernthal to go from you know your Dolph Lounger and uh to Ray Wins don't no note Ray the War like the Alexander did oh yes, um,

and then Tom Jane. We've had so many different Punishers, so it's really hard for an actor that is, you know, Walking Dead TV actor to suddenly be accepted so quickly. But he really was. I totally agree. Yeah, it was so good. Yeah. The backstory of Punisher is you know, another one of those uh good old classic uh you

know body someone's whole family tree type things. So you basically his wife and two kids were killed by the mob for witnessing a murder in New York City Central Park and then The Punisher waged though one man war on the mob and all violent criminals in general because of this, and he's like, the people who are bad

have to pay. And his family's killers were obviously the first to be murked by the Punisher, and uh, you know, he definitely had that Liam Neeson skill set where he's like, you know, I went to war, so I have a specific set of skills. You know, he was a he was a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. He was a scout sniper, and he you know, he was skilled in hand to hand combat, guerrilla warfare and marksmanship.

You know, I wanted to say whenever I get asked on the DC side what I was on a panel, and they'll ask me who my favorite DC villain is, and I always say Batman because he is a villain, because he's a vigilante. And no one ever likes that answer, but it's true. And um, the Punisher, it's really interesting because he is also a vigilan. He that's trying to

avenge his family's death. They're not as different as people think. Granted, the Punisher's run in this comic book series is much more violent, I would say, than Batman, but they both have killed in comics, so a hero doesn't look up the weaknesses of his teammates. Yeah, Batman always is ready to take out the entire justice. That's not a heroic smart but it's not heroic. But I'm you're taking the

law into your own hands. That is technically a criminal, and that is technically a villain, depending on whose viewpoint you're looking at. So anyways, that's just my point. If anyone ever asked who your favorite your favorite villain DC villain is, you can tell them Batman and I agree with Punsure being a parallel because oftentimes Cap and Punish her butt heads directly because Cap represents ultimate good and Punisher represents not ultimately bad, but bad that has a wiggle.

There's a gray area of that that Cap hates because I think Cap sees himself and Punisher a lot and like it's what he wants to do, yes, yeah, that he can't he can not do. Yeah yeah. And then of course Punish respects Cap because Cap is the ultimate soldier and he's trying to be a soldier, except he kills people. So it's a really cool parallel. I really love the interactions between Punisher and Cap and it's really interesting.

I will probably get into this little later on. But in Ultimate Comics, which is the basis of the movies you love, the Ultimate Comics is the blueprint for the m c U. If you read anything, start with Ultimate Spiderman. It will change your life, and then ten years later you'll meet Miles Morales in your life will change again. You're welcome. But Ultimate Punisher kills Spider Man. Ultimate Punisher shoots at Cap, Spider Man gets in the way, and

then Spiderman's just fought the Green Goblin. The death of Peter Parker and the comics is insane. But if you look at it, the killing blow is Punisher. He's a bad guy, and people don't talk about that when we're talk about the Punishy. He killed Spider Man. Yeah, but you know as much as you're saying that, the police try to kill Spider Man. So in the police I don't think would be seen. I mean, we would see it as audiences if we watched the police officer kill

Spider Man. But like the police don't see they see another vigilante who is essentially breaking the law. So I just that's what I find really fascinating about all of this is that it's told the Punisher to Spider Man is a villain, but when we see him in his own comic, and we see him now in the Netflix series, we're rooting for him to survive. So, like we started with it, it depends on who's writing it whether or

not they play that nuance well. So, um, Gary Conway was inspired by The Executioner, which is a popular book series created by author Don Pendleton, in which a Vietnam veteran Mack Boland becomes a serial killer of criminals after the mafia related death of death of his family. So

that is essentially the Punisher's origin story. Uh. Conway described the inspiration in an interview from nineteen seven, quote, I was fascinated by the Don Pendleton Executioner character, which was fairly popular at the time, and I wanted to do something that was inspired by that, although not to my mind a copy of it. And while I was doing the Jackal storyline, the opportunity came for a character who would be used by the Jackal to make Spider Man's

life miserable, and the Punisher seemed to fit. Yeah. Um, and then Conway. He also helped design the character's distinctive costume. UH. In two thousand two, he said, in the seventies, when I was writing comics at d C and Marvel, I made a practice to sketch my own ideas for the costumes of new characters, heroes and villains, which I offered to the artists as crude suggestions for representing the image

I had in mine. I had done it that would punish her at Marvel, And it's it's interesting to hear that because I imagine if I because you know, um, there's there there seemed to be making a lot of room for comics to write UH comics, and I've already spoken to a few people to try and get in that lane, and I imagine that that's how I would kind of do for certain things that I'm like, I

want this to look. So it's cool to see that, like someone's been doing that, and I imagine that you know, that would have happened, but it's cool to see like that it is not that frowned upon. Hopefully you know, who knows what's happening now. Yeah, So then that ran through the seventies and eighties, and then in nineteen nine five, Marvel canceled all three ongoing Punisher series due to poor sales.

That was was that that was also just a hard time in comics, in general comics, So in nineteen nine five Marvel had to sell their characters. So the reason that X Men is owned by Fox, the reason we can't get Silver Surfer, Fantastic four, the reason we don't know who owns nay More half the time is back then they were trying to keep their lights on and no one wanted to buy Iron Man because he was a C list character at the time. No one wanted Thor because he was in his wrestling phase. No one

wanted these characters. That's one He's there still Marvel at the time. So in nineteen there was seventeen variant covers of per issue. There was Foliage foil covers, there was all the issues that we've learned our mistakes from. But ninety five was peak excess. So all the characters were excessive,

all of the runs were excessive. We just lived through this amazing age of comics where they were selling and now we thought that if we bought you know, the death of Superman, who would put our kids through college and it didn't work out. So I think Punisher was definitely a loss of the time as well as a character that was better suited for a different time period. There's a reason his imagery, like you were talking about, has lived on. There's a reason that soldiers respect him

and have that on their trucks. There's a reason that the skull is so iconic to the Punisher. And what's funny is I think it's actually gone beyond the Punisher, wh people don't even necessarily identify with it. Like I see marines with the Punisher iconography, and I don't see them as comic fans. There's just this this universal appeal to that skull, and I find that fascinating because it was a comic book iconography that was changed by a series of artists that turned into what the Punisher is.

And I think that it would be really interesting to talk to the people that love the Punisher about his nuance, whether or not they see them as a gun toting hero or a villain or a guy that does anything that to to get what he wants. And it's such a tricky character that when putting wrong, it's like a gun. When putting the wrong hands. It can go well or poorly, and I think he represents a lot more of what

can be than people give him credit for. Yeah, and that's that's what's so interesting that you mentioned that of how like soldiers and cops have been doing it, because that's how they've got burned by because as not knowing what it is. Because if you see a cop walking around with a punisher on their car, you're like, no, please don't. Yeah, and they've they've gotten burned. They I forgot which I'll look it up real quick, but the

whole police department they had them on. We're going to get into the bottom, but they had to remove it from their cards, and it's like, yeah, you should probably know the whole thing behind it before you start slapping it on police car. And that's a good argument for him being a great character, because nuance, I think, is the most important thing in comic books. That's why Daredevil is one of the best shows about comic books. It's because you're rooting for the Kingpen half as much as

rooting for Daredevil. Like when Matt Murdoch has a face off with Wilson Fisk, you're seeing two men that are trying to do what they see is right full stop. Punisher is then introduced in season two, and he's just trying to do what is right full stop, except he's got a gun. So when you see these people with the Punisher emblems on their guns or their trucks or there Whatever's it's really interesting is is it doesn't necessarily say what kind of personally are. It just says they

believe strongly in what they believe in. And I think that's a great conversation to have with people in the military, and and you know, the people that do who love the character is why they do. Yeah, I was gonna say, um, we're going to get into his revival and coming back in as well as the fan films, the big films and his Netflix series right after these messages and welcome back, it's me and it's me Frank Gas. You see, I was trying that that sounded I was that wasn't Italian.

That was like and I too. Maybe we were talking about how um Dolph longer played him. Well, yo, you know he on the side of the Bronx, he was just an aquaman, right, I think that's yeah, he's just all I mean, no, but I think it's funny that he's still in the comic book movies, like decades later, he's still such a beast, like his face and body is made for comics. If he dies, he dies, Oh my gosh, frink. And if he dies, he can't be revived.

But we're talking about the revival. Nobody likes my accents ever, My my, My old Lady one that I did and then my, um, what was it Jimmy Stewart, Yeah, and you like sent a second draft of that to me and I was like, yes, oh, yes it was. It was during Christmas, during Christmas. I can't even remember the name of the movie. Now, what is it? A Wonderful Life. It's a wonderful life was on and I filmed it, and I filmed me doing an impression of so proud

of it. You were so proud, Clarence, Clarence, I want to live? Okay? Oh man? That was that real good tweet where it's like, imagine a ghost and a more successful you walk into a room and go, this is what you would look like if you didn't live, And he was like, oh no, take me back, and you're like, what the cancer? He almost got me? See, I am the one who curses the least. Ever, I never have to be bleeped and I almost broke it at Yeah,

I don't curse as much as I used to. I look back at tweets that I did last year and I was like, oh man, I was before I was a Disney Darling. Disney changes you. Oh man. So here's the revival of Punisher. Basically, there was a twelve issue mini series by Garth Innis, who he's good. He's like hit or miss for me. I like Garth, but he definitely is and it's no no surprise he did Punisher

because he's definitely an edge lord e writer. Like all his strong tastes, all his comics are like very edgy and like especially when you go into his like image stuff. Oh what was the one you might know this because you're a huge The one where the like all the heroes die in it and it's like about them and I'm not talking about the Boys. I'm talking about the

boys and more recent this is before the Boys. It was more silver ag right, like, yeah, it was that image I forget but uh he that's when I but I was into it at that was like, look, bloody, this you're perfect. Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I was the perfect age to but yeah he uh him and Steve Dylan uh did the Punisher that

dropped during April two thousand. In March two thousand, first under the Marvel Knights imprint, which was a very specific run of Marvel, so Marvel aside from there, you know, I know in the Miles episode we explained what six one six versus Ultimate was, I think mean Max, Uh right, no, no, this one is under the Marvel um But and then they did another one under Max. I think we lightly

touched on Max before. But Mark of the Knights was all the street level heroes and by street level, and it's exactly what it sounds like, your Luke Cages, your Daredevil's And they had that Marvel Knights run and it was kind of away from the main cannon and they had their own special Marvel Knights cannon. It was really cool. And then you have your Max imprint, which is just your R rated comics, which the the Nick fal The Nick Fury Max run is so good because it's like

a like sexy spy joint. Obviously Wolverine Max runs, even though some people are like, I didn't need that I you know, yeah, but yeah, So they had the Marvel Knights imprint and it revived the character's popularity. And then after that they had a regular ongoing series UH that were thirty seven issues from August two thousand and one to f Everywhary two thousand four, which was primarily by Innocent Dealing. Is it Enis or Inness? Yeah, that's what

I've been saying, um, but I'm bad with names. And then after that it was succeeded in two thousand four by an ongoing in a series under Marvel's Mature Readers imprint Max UH, which we just discussed, which the Max stuff is a good read. Some some is like gratuitous, but like with the right person, you can tell someone's like, I've been waiting around I wrote this, I be sitting out for thirty You could tell they're like, I've been waiting for this, and it'll just knock it out the park. Yeah.

I think Knights and Max are really good places for people that don't know comics to jump in because it's so strong. Whether you love it or hate it, it it definitely has a has a take. And I think that Knights, especially like Spider Man, Knights is written by Kevin Smith. And it's a really fun take because it's way edgier than Spider Man to being a regular run. And that is a good gateway. It's the gateway drug. It's the

weed of comics to play. It's a good way for you to because they're shorter runs, they don't run as long. You don't have to read six hund issues. You can just read like thirty. So Punisher was a fun character because he had so many manyas he had so many different runs, you can kind of pick up wherever you want and it'll end soon enough. God, I was gonna say.

During that time they changed his the look of the Punisher was modified, so they removed the white gloves and pairing his traditional skull imprinted shirt with combat trousers, black combat boots and a black trench coat. Um Castle has used this costume on occasion in the mid two thousand

stories before the Punisher War Journal volume two. And we are moving on to films, we should briefly mention Steve Steve Dillon, who redefined his image, redefined the look, basically reshaped who Punisher is had passed away on the last five So Steve didlon the artist that we find who Punish. Yeah, let's take a moment to appreciate Mr Steve Dillon. He

actually was drawing a Punisher issue when he passed. So there's an issue that's half finished that is in print, like you can pick it up, and an artist that had a very similar style finished the runs there. I think it's issue like thirty seven of the of the second to most recent run. They just restarted Punisher in two thousand and eighteen. The one that ended in seventeen was the end of Steven Dillan when he's passed away. But if you're gonna pick up any comics, check out

Steve Dillon's run that ended in twenties seventeen. But also the current run, which is the only issue six, is really good because it plays off of the John burnetal take. It's a lot more nuance. It looks like him. It definitely looks like So if you want to read Punisher, the current issue is issue six, you're only six six behinds. You're like eighteen dollars in which is which is handibal

he yah um. Yeah, So we had the Punisher. That was the first time he was on the big screen starring Dolphin London as we said, he has killed a hundred and twenty five criminals in the past five years. This is interesting. He's an ex police officer in this Um so, yeah, Castle's family was murdered in a mob hit, in which Castle was thought to also have perished. They still keep that storyline often of him. I think in this series. In the Netflix series, they thought he was dead. Yeah.

So he's living in this sewers and waging a one man war against organized crime. His only friend is an old alcoholic name Shake. I don't a way that reminds me of Master Shake from Aquitine Hunger Force, but I think they need to have that someone an adult Swim needs to have a regular punisher and then just have Master Shake with him. Um. I feel like that could be a series. I'll pitch it to somebody and then a former stay. Oh so Shake was a former stage

actor who speaks in rhyme for reasons unexplained. Um yeah, the guys, did you enjoy this film? I did for what it was and was certainly a piece of the eighties. I my favorite non superhero franchisees Lethal Weapon. I watched Lethal Weapon every Christmas. The eighties were really important to me. So, Thomas Jane did a great job. But to me, Dolph Lunger and has a different It's not even the Punisher. It's like the eighties Punisher, you know what I mean.

Like there's a big old caveat. So when you watch it, you're not going like I'm gonna watch a Punisher movie. You're like, I'm gonna watch Dolf Lung Punisher. It's fun with a caveat. Yeah. Uh So, then after that we had the two thousand and four film The Punisher, starring Thomas Jane as Frank Castle and John Travolta as Howard Saint, who was a money launder who orders the death of

Castle's entire family. It has a glowing on Rotten Tomatoes, but Roger Ebert he gave the film two stars, saying The Punisher is so grim and cheerless you wonder if it's uh, if it's hero gets any satisfaction from its accomplishments. Now, this movie is fantastic. I really people crap on this movie. I own it. I'm a big fan. I think Thomas Jane really figured out who the Punisher was. I like Tom Jane as an actor. Uh. It stars Rebecca Romaine as a supporting role who's great in this and people

just think of his mystique. No, no, she's great and Punisher and Ben Foster was one of my favorite actors in the game. Ben Foster in the last ten years is getting all this critical appeal. But Ben Foster is in The Punisher and he plays this crazy like tatted and pierced meth head and he's like a pre Jesse Pinkman. It's fantastic, and it's a movie. He's got a great

supporting cast. You identify with the supporting cast in a way that you don't expect because when you rewatch The Punisher, you need to have the humanity to make the character work. That's what Delfh Longheran didn't have because his humanity was that crazy, rhyming guy. Whereas you've got Rebecca Romaine, you've got Ben Foster. You believe in what he's fighting for, and that's what makes the character go from man to good is there has to be an eyeline, there has

to be a perspective you can see. So I really like the Tom Jane one because it gave us that for the first time in my opinion, And then we had the two thousand eight, The Punisher war Zones everyone else pretty much says is the good one. Yeah, A lot of people love it, starring Ray Stevenson as a Punisher. It's directed by my friend Lexei Alexander, who is awesome and I feel like she uh, I don't know if she's a good follow on Twitter if we follow her.

She she speaks up quite a bit and um really puts people in their place, and I think that she was the perfect person to do a Punisher film. Also, you know she's She's also directed a lot of other comic book TV shows, um, some of the ones that I think are in the CW so um. Yeah. But she also does hand to hand combat, which you can

see her tweeting about constantly. She's amazing. Um. So this film is a reboot that follows the war Raged by Frank Castle and Crime Interruption again, particularly though with mob boss known as Jigsaw, who we're finally getting too in the series now. They touched on the Russian in the movie with Tom Jane that t thousand and four, and they kind of made him a Jigsaw asked character because they messed up his face. So they played with both Russian and Jigsaw, but in the comics, yeah, they kind

of made him into one. And now what Lexi did was the Jigsaw was the villain and he looked awesome. I personally also love Lexi's film. I actually can't decide between the two because they're so different, Like Dolphs is different than Tom, Jane's a different than Rays. But Lexi's fighting style is fascinating because she fights in real life

and her fight choreography reflects that. But then it's also with a shade of like the Punisher Max line where the violence is so over the top you're like, yes, like he punches through a head, like the like her movies insane and I really like it. And I think Lexi is the person that should be doing Lobo or would be doing like this next wave, Like, I think Lexi's an untapped resource for she's doing something for. I

saw her tweet She's doing something for. She's doing one of those okay, one of the three that yeah somebody. I remember she was like, no one wanted this, and then they took it, and I think it's going to be like big yeah, Yeah, she is working on something where she was like now people are hitting me up and I just love her pettiness. She should. She's an extremely talented woman who can kick all of our asses collectively.

I think she has been blacklisted at times for speaking up against abuse of people and um yeah, anyways, sorry, I didn't mean to distract. I agree with you. I like her work and I like her Punisher go LEXI yes. Um. So then we had a we had a very popular fan film, Dirty Laundry, which was a Punisher fan fan film. It was ten minutes long. It was starring Thomas Jane, so he was reprising his role. It came out in I remember it was produced by Audie Schenkore. Um. He's

done a lot. I know, he's worked on Castlevania, him and I have worked on and he has a channel called Bootleg Universe. He makes a really cool fan stuff. He does a lot of fan films. He did the Power Rangers one right, yeah, yeah, the popular Power Rangers fan film. So. Um, this was called Dirty Laundry. It was Thomas Jane reprising his role uh from the film, as well as Ron Perlman hell Boy himself. Uh yeah.

So it was ten minutes long. At first screened at San Diego Comic Con and Frank Castle sits out to do his laundry. You can go and catch it on YouTube. I like that money laundrying in the Thomas Jane puntersher turns into dirty laundry, and I always thought that tongue in cheek joke was brilliant. And I think the short is really really cool to see what a fan film can become with someone like Audie behind it, because the movies he makes are so fan base, they're really the

thing we want to see. He did a movie this year that I love called Bodied, which is produced by eminem so Audie and and Marshall Mother's teamed up to do a battle hip hop movie that basically has the story structure of like a dance film that turns into a battle rap saga that lands with one of the most powerful lyrical displays I've ever seen on film, and it was done in the same way his fan films are that you know, he cares so much about each and every big nuance that the people that are watching

it love the material. So if you mess up anything, we're the loudest people on the internet, are comic nerds, so do it right. And Dirty Laundry really plays to that so I like his everything he produces as a tone to it. Yeah, you know what, I just thought of, what if LEXI did Black Widow and actually made her like as hand to hand combatty and all the nuance that she could bring to it and actually bring in like the crazy Cold War intrigue of that, because she

wouldn't she wouldn't cut corners. Her Twitter representation says the script she'd make. But if you imagine like an actual gritty Black Widow, like she's the max line and those things, that be incredible. So you know, we have a list of villains from the comics, But why go through a list when we have a walking encyclopedia with so many opinions on each villain? So uh so I'm gonna just go to the may and the myth, the legend coy who are I'd say, let's go down your top five.

I know I'm putting you on the spot. Punish your villains and why, and they don't have to be in a specific order, Okay, extra pressure like like her more than here. Yeah, Monocchi comes to mine first. She was a Garthennis creation, if I remember correctly, And what I love about her is she leads a crime family, but she does it like an Italian mom in the North End, so she's never actually boots on the ground. She's orchestrating like an Italian mom, and she's like cooking like the

whole time. You just have this malice and this fear of this character, and you don't know if there's blood in the spaghetti sauce, like there's there's always this uncomfortable like I don't know. Yeah, so she's great. Uh, And then to go the other side, Jigsaw. There's a reason jigsaws all these movies. There's a reason Jigsaw gets used over and over again. He's the opposite of Monocchi. The physicality of this character is fascinating because he's what Punisher

is when unhinged. And I love the Iron Man Ironmonger thing. I love the parallel hero hero, the Spider Man, Venom. There's a reason we are fascinated with our other side. Jigsaw is his other side, and I really like when they play with those. I'm gonna say a a bold one here and cycle it back to Captain America. I think Captain America is one of the best Punisher villains because not only does he represent everything that castle wants to be, but he also shows in Times and Punisher

comics that Captain America is fallible. There are decisions Cat makes that are for government, that are four right that don't end up being right. So when he has to apologize to Punisher, when he has to forgive Punisher, those things are really interesting to me, and those comics read, well, yeah, and you on that one, because that that was the first time you mentioned if this is all I thought about.

One of my favorite interactions between them is during Civil War because there is a moment where they have to team up, and that my favorite thing about the moment is like everything you just said about them is encapsulated in that in that that issue is because you know, they have the moment where he's like, Frank, you were right and you should be on board, and in an instant they find out why they could never work together, and it's so good because it's such it's just so

much of both those characters, and they've been side by side for issues. All of a sudden, it's like, this isn't working. What I was gonna say is it's capital like that whole story is so heartbreaking because that's what Frank Castle could be if his family hadn't been murdered. It's not like he wanted to become this person. He had his family taken from him in a way that

he just he you know. I think they did a really good job of portraying it in the in the Netflix series of like it haunts him, like he just has repeated and it also our friend, uh Jason Edman, who was also a war vet UM has spoken up and said, like, this is one of the most honest portrayals of what it's like to go through PTSD, to be a veteran, you know, and like having these these flashbacks and like waking up in terror, and it's like

it's um. Aside from all of that, he comes home after serving the country, comes home and then his family is murdered. It's so sad that like he was a hero, he was the country's hero. He was and then that was taken from him. It's such a it is so interesting to see that parallel of him and cat because that's who he should be. He is a he's a war hero, but now he's turned into this person that is perceived as a villain because all he wants to

do is avenge his family. Yeah, that's what's so interesting about him too, is is just that part because and I think that's why Punisher has been able to work as as much as he does is because that is that defined his personal philosophy, the fact that he lost not only his wife but his kids. He's like, life isn't fair, so why played by the rules? Right? And

that's and that's his whole character thesis. And when it's justified by what happened to him, it's it's kind of like why kill Monger was such a good because you're like, you understand where he's coming from exactly, You're just one about it the wrong way. And I think that's the same thing for Punisher, And Punisher has the extra wrench in it that he is fighting on our side. So as much as you want to be like you're going about it the wrong way, he's also taking care of

the people we meet, taking care of his own community. Yeah, And what I like is that Captain America and Jigsaw couldn't be more different, but they're both villains of the Punisher, and I like that there's so much it's everyone against Frank. At the end of the day, you love cap you love Spider, man, you don't love Jigsaw, but they're all against Frank. So it's this really interesting take on what morality even is. And we're giving some of the runs

a lot more credit than they intended to have. But I'd also say I already did three of my final three, so I'm not leaving me out. You gotta mention bulls Eye, the blunt force of Punisher versus the very precision of Bull's Eye. I love the dichotomy of those two characters when they fight, because one is a blunt object, the other one is pure finesse. You see the bulls Eye and Daredevil a lot more, but the bulls Eye Punisher stuff.

To me, it's a beautiful artistic representation of types of fighting. I would also say Kingpin because king In and some star lines has been responsible. Like you're saying money going to the top Punisher and Kingpin Kingpin might have been responsible for the death of his family, and they allude to that a lot, and that's a fascinating commentary. And even if the Kingpin would know that far down, if he was responsible, and would he care, So I think

Kingpin's important. And then my last one would be the Russian because kg Beast in Batman is a great character because it's Batman fighting someone that is just like him. He's a dude and he's just not going to be taken down. To me, the Russian is that with the Punisher, he's kind of like Ivan Drago. He's kind of like Rocky versus Ivan Drago. He's the same guy in a different circumstance. He's from a different world and he's just

fighting for his country what he thinks is right. So to me, the Russian is kind of the Punisher for Russia from the perspective of American eyes. So there's a lot of good villains for for this character. Yeah, it is fascinating that Kingpin is both Spider Man's you know, villain and the Punisher so much. Yeah, and Daredevil all the street level New York guys so much incest to it. But Spider Man is now been leveled up. Yeah, he doesn't like anymore. He doesn't. But this man, I know.

But we had him in into the Spider Verse and their game, Spiderman and the and the series. So Daredevil thought him, spider Man video Game thought him into the Spider Verse. Thought I'm Kingpin has gotten beaten up three times. You know what he deserves it. Yeah, ye, you've you've been due for I know who you know. I'm ready for Craven. This is a light side bar. I love

to see how they do Craven. And that's all I can think about because Craven was such a cool one and then he had you know, so he was just I'd love to see his Craven Elba. Can you picture that lion mane over eat your seld shoulders. I just love that we both had black Craven in mind, the majesty of just. I want someone that's regal, you know what I mean. I want someone that has a presence without the costumes. When he puts it on, you're like, oh that works because he wears a lions like that.

We won't play if you don't have someone no, not not not with Yeah, Pascal, eat yourself with someone with that like reality. Yeah. Uh, we're going to talk about the Netflix series, but some of the controversies. Yeah, before we even get into them, I'm gonna have you listen and we're back and um coy, you were talking about how many people don't know how to write the Punisher. They just throw stuff at him. So punisher basically like when you run out of ideas because you're so ground level.

Sometimes they're like, we need to punisher back in the title, and then sometimes you get Frank and Castle. I love that it's literally a play on his name. Yeah, like, how amazing. So this guy's named Francis Castiglione and that turns into Frank Castle because he's a badass, and then that turns into Frank and Castle, which is the most amazing. It's it's the epitome of comics that wouldn't translate into any other medium. Sometimes comics have to be mix and

I love that we have animated movies. I love that we have live action movies. I love that we have TV series. But Frank and Castle is why comics can never die, because it would not work in a single other medium. But we were just talking like if he loved the run, it's so much fun and it's so weird. How can that exist and be good? It doesn't make sense.

It just yeah, And it was one of those things where you know, like we were saying during the break, it was supposed to be like this, Like I think Halloween was when they had like all these like it was Halloween versions of characters, but people liked Frank and Castle so much they just kept it running. It was it was wild, and I was surprised every time I saw it on the shelves, like this is still going okay.

He's also been war Machine worth noting he's had the war Machine armor, so he's taken over the Don Cheetle character in the movies and currently Frank Castle. And this is the weirdest one of ball is the spirit of Vengeance with cosmic powers. So Frank Castle plus Silver Surfer plus ghost Rider, I give you Cosmic ghost Rider. He lives until the end of time. He's the last guy with Thanos in the year whatever thousand, well past the

earth exploding. Frank Castle has the power cosmic and his ghostwriter. Because comics and drugs have a lot more in common than this. Poor man probably just wants to hang out with his family in heaven. Like I'm not even kidding. That's what all of his dreams are about, just like banging his wife and the Netflix series. Every time he dreams, it's just like and I don't blame the dude, but I also know because his family, at least in the series.

In the Netflix series, they were murdered at a carousel, and they keep showing that carousel even in other I think they showed it. Was it in Luke It was like in another series too. Maybe it was also in Daredevil like this poor man. Also, I wanted to say, because um, there was a scene I think it was in Daredevil. Maybe it was. Yeah, it was in Daredevil where Frank is looking at a Um, this is Daredevil Netflix series where Frank is looking at a picture of

his family and it's a different family. Do you remember that it's a different family because they hadn't cast the family because they probably didn't quite Oh, they were going to make him have his own entire series. This is the John birnth All run. And so he's looking at a different family And I tweeted him like, how many families has this man lost? No wonder he's so traumatized families That was before they cast his current family that

shows up in flashbacks on The Punisher. Anyways, John Burnthall plays The Punisher on Marvel's Netflix series. Also, we have Ben Barnes playing Billy Russo a k a. Jigsaw who are going to get in this upcoming series. Um Amber Rose Reva who is amazing. I believe she plays a CIA agent. I think she's with the CIA, yeah, or whatever. Her division of the government would be UM. And so this is just a little bit of a backstory. So The Punisher was actually supposed to get a pilot at

Fox in eleven, but that project fell through. He appeared in June of twenty fifteen in the second series the second season of Daredevil, and then by January they had developed the Punisher series to have his own spin off. What I love about the Punisher series is it reflects the comics. Accidentally and Spider Man, you accidentally backdoor pilot a character you didn't think to take off. Daredevil accidentally backdoor piloted a character into a show you didn't think.

C W does that all the time. But the fact that it was his origin was that from the comics turned into a TV show, two separate medium. We have Punisher being like, I'm too cool, I'm gonna get my own thing. Both Red Guys and Tights caused a Punisher show to develop, and it's great. The CW does do that, and they test out audiences really well, and it's really intriguing when it works. And The Punisher like you said, the Different Family. We didn't know how much we'd love

John Burnhal. We knew, like when you got cash, like, that's great. And as soon as he was up on that roof in Chaine's tied to that chimney, like, I knew this was a character I wanted to see more of. As soon as that Daredevil scene happened, I was straight from the comics. The dialogue felt greedy, from the comics. All of that, I knew we needed a whole show, and I think that Netflix did as well. That's why he picked it. He's or you know, one of the

reasons why he said yes. He said that long monologue that you don't actually get to do a lot of in television. When he read that monologue that, uh, but that moment between Frank Castle and Daredevil that is up on that roof, he was like, I want to do this. They're allowing us to breathe like, they're allowing them to have longer moments um like real raw moments. And that was one of the reasons why he, as an actor, wanted to play him. I totally see that, and you

can see how much Burnthal loves Punisher. I mean, he puts his teeth into everything he works on. But he said, like he kind of was reclusive and he was filming he had to go, you know, kind of shake the character after the first season wrapped. I think it's really interesting that John Burnthal what he's turned into, because if you look at any Taylor Sheridan movie, he like pops up in all these great roles. He's in Cicario, he's in you know, wind River, and he's always this force

of nature in these small roles. So I love that Punisher gives us thirteen hours and he's still a force of nature the same thing, or he plays this tough guy like really quickly and then the rest of it. In the rest of it, Jimi Fox replaces him as pretty much the same character. Do you watch a baby Driver with like different glasses on? And I re watched it. I was like, wait, the differences Jimmy Fox and John berthell are very small. Yeah, like ten minutes and that's it.

That's so funny. You know, like we talked about, you know, good things getting into the wrong hands of course, you know, the Punishers skull Icon became a huge hit with the Blue Lives Matter movement with many companies produced decals, stickers, and T shirts featuring the Punisher emblem colored with a thin blue line a top of American flag, and in two thousand and seventeen, the Cattlesburg Police Department, with the one we were talking about earlier in Kentucky, basically got

the backlash for installing those large decals with the Punisher skull and Blue Lives Matters on the hood of police cars because you know, well, uh, I don't have to spell it out for you. Uh and uh, you know they removed it in response to public pressure. But uh, but they said citizens and police interpreted its meaning differently.

I don't know how you could have interpreted, especially coupled with Blue Lives Matter, because I mean, you know, look, I'm not gonna get all the way into it, but Blue Lives Matter is basically a movement of let us do what we have to do to do what we want what makes us feel safe, and Punisher is a character who does just that. And it turns out the same way with both the instances. Uh for a little bit of dark history. But they said it didn't cross

their mind. I mean, either way, even if you had nothing to uh like, even if there was no punisher attached to it. I don't want cops walking around with skulls on their cars or anything like punisher attached or nothing, even if it's just not be your goal is to have dead people. Your goal should be for the person to be a lot like the verbage. And it's called the punisher, implying the move is to punish, not to protect and serve. And then the archaetography of death versus protecting.

It's like, you can't have to protect and serve and to punish on the same car. Those are two cars. Yeah, yeah, to protect your have schools. And it's funny because half the police cars in this country, maybe it's not half, don't quote me. Many police cars in this country have to protect and serving quotes, so it's always like to protect and serve. And I was like, bro, you know that quotes stand for on the internet, but the punisher is not in quotes, so it's like maybe there's a there.

I don't see I do. I mean, I feel like comic book characters are though for people that have served, like there are very important to them. I know, like when my one of my friends from high school um was in Iraq, I would send him comic books, you know. And Jason Edman again, our our friend who is a veteran, has a whole comic book drive for veterans. So I understand to some extent um, I think, like what you guys are saying in a public manner, having the punisher

is probably not the right person. I have seen the police officers that have like Superman, I feel like that's perfect, that least out of the one of the most. Even yeah, I've seen Captain America. I mean, but to play America makes sense because it's America. Like, yeah, I could see that. But I love that the military has a character they identify with and I and I don't want my earlier

quote to be misrepresented. I love that the military having a character that they feel they have a representation with is important that they feel they can read a comic and never released. I can't imagine what the military goes through. I've never I've never served, so I can't imagine how great it is to be like, Okay, I just did a tour. I have no way to cope. This character has been through what I've been through. Let me like put my nose in a comic and go like and

then have that solution. So I really think it's important that we do have representation for the military, and I do think it's important that they have a character that they can throw a flag up and that we as non military can go yeah and they can go yeah, and there's a universality that that to me is so key. It's just like a gun. Guns need to be in the right hand ends, and I think that the iconography needs to be in the right hands. Yeah, yeah, but

yeah and then uh, what was that? Um uh? Well, so the Punisher, like you guys said, representing I mean, he is very gun friendly obviously, and that's I feel like one of the things that he's known for that is his weapon of choice and he so essentially the

Netflix series had to tackle that. I know John Burnthall has had to tackle that in many um in many interviews, and just days before this year's or this past year's New York Comic Con, Marvel and Netflix canceled their panel for The Punisher because this there was the mass shooting in Las Vegas a few days prior that I left fifty eight people dead. It is really difficult, I think with this continuing to happen in our country to promote

a gun heavy show. I think that I think what they did was right, But I can't imagine being in Burntall's shoes and having to answer to this every time there is a mass shoot of like, um, hey, your show is gun positive, I guess or pro guns? You know? Um. I know that that's a question that he has to answer quite often. So that was just, you know, something that happened with the series that they had to push the series back, and they also had to push the

trailer back. I remember from this past year, and I definitely want to give Punish the series credit because the show arguably is the best version that character has ever been and arguably the most nuanced. And I really want to give credit to the fact that they have a pro gun seeming character in a show that handles gun violence, political correctness, political disparity, UH, domestic violence, Stockholm syndrome, and dozens of other very difficult to handle subject matter beautifully.

The entire show is more intelligent than I ever expected to get a punisher. It's more detailed and layered, and I want to give a lot of credits to Debra and Wall because Debor and Wall's character is basically kidnapped at points and then doesn't seem like a victim. She's in a position of not being in power and acts in a way that doesn't put her as a damsel in distress and then overcomes things just with verbs verbiage,

and I really like this. There's a scene in Punisher season one where there's a complete conversation in a hotel room about gun control and she's a character that has a gun in her purse on her at the time, and there's a civil conversation about gun control, and it

is nuanced. It shows blue and red, it shows both sides, and it's in a show called The Punisher, Like I never would have thought when I was watching the Spider Man animated series in the nineties that guy with the white skull in his chest would teach me more about both sides of gun control in a show. And that's that's full credit to the writer's, full credit to John Burnthal, Debra and Wall, everyone that made that show possible. It's handling things that need to be discussed in a manner

that people will actually watch it. I don't watch documentaries and gun control, but I watched the hell out of Punisher. I would much rather something that is a blockbuster, like screw bill Mar. Like I'm basically I'm saying, screw bull Mar. I want things. I want blockbusters to have nuance. I want these subjects to be in our blockbusters so we hear that. I want kids to grow up. No, and like, this is right and wrong, and Punisher of all characters

to do that. I think it's a great representation of the character. Yeah, I was gonna say this is from an a V article where it said it's unfair because, um, The Punisher is hardly the only series to start a hero who shoots people. It's very on point. They're right, there are tons of them. Yet the handwringing about Frank Castle doesn't swirl around other gun wielding heroes like Deadpool, James Bond always with a gun, Indiana Jones, or John Wick very famously with many guns, at least not to

the same extent. Yeah. True. Um, And so this was a question that was uh that was posed that if, um, if we're going to continue to have this, if there are always you know, mash shoot in America, will there ever be a suitable time to release The Punisher was a conversation that came up when this was happening, and so I think, like I agree with what you were saying that they that they did show respect UM by delaying it. I think it's still a conversation to have.

I understand if people don't want to watch this series. I think, like you said, it's worth watching, and like Jay Since said, I think it's it's one of the best um examples of PTSD that we currently have, or at least had this past year. So those were just some of the harder conversations that we're surrounding this character, who was a very complicated character, I think, and like you said, times have changed where some of the things that were okay possibly to show might have a different

conversation around them today. And not having the conversation is in the answer. Ever, I think not having Punisher come out doesn't have the conversation happen. And I think it's like in the eighties when everyone smoked and then we were like it's fine, and then everyone was dying. I think the conversation needs to happen so we can decide what the next move is. And I think swinging right or left or getting mad at the other side isn't going to solve it. Nuanced conversation that happens to be

on a Netflix show about superheroes is amazing. And the fact that that's where we got one of the better conversations and one of the better representations of PTSD, that's that's a Christmas miracle. Like, I'm not mad at at all. Yeah, I think we could end this on a lighter note. Season two of The Punishers drops this weekend. I will, thus pent be watching it for very personal reasons that have nothing to do with John burn Actually, I do want to say I watched the series twice. I loved

it so much. It's just so beautifully written. It's so good if you haven't watched it. Um, So I watched the first season, fell in love with John burn Thal, watched it again and fell in love with Ben Barnes. He's so good. Oh he's great. Prince Caspian himself. I mean, he's in so many things, but he uh in West World too, He's in West World. So um. He loves playing he's that's the thing though. It's very good at playing a charming villain. Yes, um, he is great in

the Punisher. And I love the fact that I was able to watch it twice and fall for someone different. I like that Micro is so important in the show. Yeah, and the and the battle van, Like things that are so important to the character to the fans are represented on the show in a way that's better than the comic.

I like, I never thought i'd care about Micro, and suddenly not only to care about microL I care about Micro's wife, like I'm invested in his family in a way that I didn't think I would be, And like in the vans and danger like don't hurt the van. And that's that's how rewatchable the show is. So I'm really excited for season two, which I haven't gotten to see yet, because it is a continuation of they built

a foundation of how much we love these characters. They built a foundation of intelligence and a character that isn't always intelligent, and a supporting cast that is incredibly strong, like the CI agent, Debra and Wall Micro, all of these characters that I didn't think i'd love. I can't wait to spend thirteen hours with again. Well, uh, there is one thing that I want to do before we head on out of here, because we wouldn't be a nerdy show with out a little speculation. Do we think

they're going to cancel The Punisher after? We don't need to talk about that. You think they're going to drop it? For people that don't know, we totally forgot to mention that most of Marvel's Netflix series have been canceled. That includes Luke Cage. Daredevil got canceled, right. The Punisher very interestingly didn't get canceled, but it was because it's still had to drop. So that's the big speculation. Jessica Jones. Though hasn't It's got a season three coming up. Yeah,

Jessica Jones also after season shots. Um, I love that. I know now I can't wait for you. But you know what's so fascinating to me, Coin, I'm sure that you've had this conversation, is that, Um, you know, it doesn't because everyone's like, oh, they're moving over to Disney Plus, which is Disney's new streaming service. But it doesn't sound like well someone pointed out that contractually they can't even do anything with the Yeah, and why would you if

you're the competation. Okay, so Disney Plus is trying to take out Netflix, why would you go, Hey, we made this great thing season three, Punisher, go give Netflix your money for two years watching the first two seasons. Why would you? That's like it's like trading like the all the teams to the Red Sox or what like I'm bad at sports. It's like doing a thing and sending someone to your competition. Why would you ever be like, hey, but you have to buy that subscription to see where

they started. Yeah, when when Luke I was so honestly like shocked when they canceled Luke Cage because I really loved his series and in a lot of people that were working on it didn't know it was getting you know, same with Daredevil. They were in the middle of the writer's room like they or they were about to start writing it. They didn't know that it was getting canceled. And everyone's like, oh, I know what you're doing. You're just taking it over Dizzy Plus and we're saying, no,

they're not. You're just not going to be able to see them, or if you are, it's not going to be who we have seen in those roles unfortunately. And I think that they were perfectly cast. I thought Mike Culture was a perfect Luke Cage. I thought um blanking on yeah, Charlie Cox was a perfect Daredevil. Um, you know, I don't think that we're but I don't know, but I don't think we're going to see them on Disney.

There's a change Dot organ petition that's at last. I checked a hundred and sixty thousand signatures for Save Daredevil, which is one of the bigger ones I've seen, and like Vincent Donofrio tweeted it out and I was like, oh, that's serious. Honestly, Like, the second season of Daredevil is one of the best things on Netflix. I think that they addressed any issues, you know, when they were starting out like they were the they were the guinea pig. Really,

they were the guinea pig. They were just kind of getting funding for what it was. And then after that we saw how like, oh crap, this is how good it can look, This is how great the dialogue can be,

this is how great the storylines can be. Um, but the first season if Daredevil was the guinea pig, and I remember being like, what some of the choices, And then second season I think they really were like you know what, we heard you guys, and we made it even better and they introduced the punish it was so good. People forget that an O eight Iron Man came out and The Dark Knight came out, right, but they forget that The Hulk came out that year too. Ed Norton's

Hulk came out the same year Resign Man. You gotta stumble sometimes and finally way back up, Like, nobody talks about that Hulk, that movie that's came in the m see you. Nobody talks about that learning curve they had to take watching that Hulk movie. It's a lot of the nineties problems that they hadn't solved. And I think these Netflix shows, the leap of quality and Iron Fist season one to season two cannot be overstated. Season two is a good show, but season one left such a

bad taste in our mouths. The ron Fist never got a chance, and like the last thirty seconds of Iron Fifth, season two is the show we all wanted, but by then we endured two years of like we get. So it's a shame that Punisher has to die, because there's no way they're going to do something with John burn Felt as the Punisher on Disney plus like that that doesn't fit for any of the things that Disney represents. They fired James Gun about tweets from from nine years before.

They're gonna have a gun toting guys starting like, I just don't see it happening under the Disney banner. I do think we'll get all rated characters. I do think that Mirrormax existed and therefore Kevin Smith got to work. Like Kevin Smith and Tarantino both work for Disney effectively in the nineties. They can do al rated stuff. I just don't see them choosing a controversial character like Punisher. So I think I think we might be done with

Punisher after season two hours later. I don't know. Maybe yeah, I don't know. I was gonna say, maybe I'll get his film, but I don't know if given the current climate, if that's what they're going to be investing, and you can't cancel it before because the thing about people that are in the film industry. Imagine if you're you know, a mom that just likes The Punisher that isn't in the film industry, and you're like, oh, blah blah blah, it's been canceled. You don't think to look for season two,

So they have to wait until it's already aired. So you can cancel it for like logic based, if you say it's canceled, you're not gonna go watch it. So I think they're literally waiting until it's out for day hours later. Maybe we'll be proven wrong. I'd love that. Please. Yeah, I think you know there's there's something. There's something cookie up the sleeves. I think. I think there's something that's gonna happen that's gonna blow our minds. Maybe it'll happen

in two years. Maybe it will happen. You know what, what if there's many made for TV films on the Disney platform. But you do bring a good point where I don't know if Punisher could possibly live on that Disney platform if they're willing to do that jump. Maybe there's a Marvel platform being announced. Who knows, you know, something new because you know DC Universe just dropped. Maybe

Marvel is gonna have their guns. But it it is like a tricky thing because that that is a good point because there until I see the original seasons disappear from Netflix catalog, I think nothing's going to happen just yet. Until we see once you start and them disappeared, then that's when it's like they're up to something. When I know it was over, it was when we got Award show screeners that said Netflix on them before Marvel and their Netflix shows that are Marvel characters. They're not Marvel

shows released by Netflix. That's the difference, I think, and that's why I don't think we'll see them on Disney Plus. And also the subject matter. I think we're more likely to get a new Daredevil than five years I think, than Charlie Cox on Disney Plus. As much as I want that, Dared Devil Is is one of my favorite shows hardstop, not just comic show. I think it's one of the best shows that exists. So I'm the first person to be lining up to watch it wherever it lives.

I just don't know legally if that will work and if it works for what the m c US building they think about, oh eight, they already knew that by the end of things, we'd have at least through Ultron. They film they do five ten years ahead. I can't imagine they'd want to incorporate things ten years ahead that are in someone else's wheelhouse, Like why would you start planning for something that may or may not happen, Like Spider Man. Once we got the character back, it started

being within two years holy crap homecoming. But with all of these characters on Netflix, they wouldn't start accounting for those YEA, Logically, as much as I want it, like I'll watch Darvill season one, two and three a hundred times by the time because I'll be that'll be all I have. Dan, We'll see. I'm excited to see Jigsaw coming out though, Ben Barnes reprising his role as Jigsaw, and I like that they're doing. If he's seen a new trailer where it looks like a psychological Jigsaw, he

describes his face is busted up. Last episode. I know because he's so oh you got a cat scratch, bro, he's so pretty and I'm not kidding you that last episode John burnt Ill beat the crap out of his face, Like, holy crap, Now this will never happen. But Tinfoil hat theory, if I had my way, if I was in control of reality, I'd have all them show up at the end of endgame and that would restart the universe. Tinfoil

hat theory. They go through a new So my theory and in game is that we're going into a new dimension and all the characters that died in Finn you are actually did I think that Challa is gone. I think Peter Parker's gone. I think all that's actually you're you don't know that they have three film like three picture options. But the Peter Parker and Far from Home is a different to mention the Peter Parker. I think, oh,

you're saying they're different to mention. There's no way they're already getting rid of Chadwick both because like both him and which Tom Harland Holland accidentally said that he already has like three pictures. He has two, he has two more movies, you know, Far from Home, and he's got

one more after that. Your tinfoil hat theory is very similar to minds, which is the sense that when the world is restored, we find out that mutants have existed, and that's how we're going to incorporate the X Men, and that's how Scarlett, which has her own series, I think I think we am of House, not House of m What if she says mutants and it activates the ex gen and mini series and then we get that

new universe. I also think that if you go to a new dimension, how crazy would it be if we finally get the Defenders in the Marvel universe, Like it can't happen, but that would be its reality. I think, because I again am in love with John burnt All, I want him to continue. I think this is going to be like his Walking Dead moment, and if if he doesn't get to come back as the Punisher, He's just gonna level up and get another This time, it's

going to be a cinematic hero though. I think instead of just a TV he played essentially a TV villain, TV villain, I think he's going to get something big movie. His Taylor Sheridan works great. Who would you cast him as? Does anybody you want him? Um? Oh no, because you know, um, I could see his ruggedness being Wolverine being Wogan. But you know, I just don't know if I want well, I'm sorry, I don't know if I want Wolverine back this close. I think that we're still too close to

when Hugh Jackman played him. I think he played him so like, I just don't know if I want another rugged you know, Griff like Wolverine that I think you need to establish the X Men first. I think I want the original five. I want to live with them for a few movies before you want them young? Yeah, I want Harry, Yeah you want Yes, I want to

go Harry. Even though I think that John Burnhal could be Wolverine, I think that we need to see him younger, like what they're doing in Spider I mean, obviously Peter Parker is a teenager in the comics, but like, we're probably gonna have Tom Holland for a little bit, you know. I think we'll have Tom and then he would be thirty because he's like twenty whatever four now, Yeah, I think the Going In and skier Ron where he's like

a college professor. Like I'd love to see a long form like Peter Parker where we evolve an age with him, cause that's why the character so loved is we've lived on. What would you do if you're watching The New Spider Man and he's fighting off and for some reason, he's fighting off against this guy named the Jackal as the punisher. To reprise that fun fact, John Burnthal Tom Holland did

a movie to Yes. John Burnthal and Tom Holland helped each other auditions for their respective roles in the universe. So Tom Hollow was there when he was auditioning for Punisher and vice versa. So if that happened, that would be the ultimate life imitating art back to life. That would be the most perfect thing. Once again, we're in tinfoil hatland. But I would lose my I would run out of that theater screaming. You see, like Pilgrimage. It was the Pilgrimage that came out and last year it

came out. Um and yeah. While they were on set they helped each other. John Burnthal helped Tom Holland with his audition for Spider Man. Blows my mind. I just think that's so magical. I think it's so cool. And one of my other favorite things, the fun fact of is on The Revenant, Tom Hardy was doing all those doubs or what are those? What are those video where you sing over things? Yeah, he was doing those, but he was in a Punisher had a lot of the time, so I kept being like, oh, is he gonna be

and right, he's another almost logan. Yeah yeah, yeah, I don't know who Maybe we need a different type of logan though. Yeah. So my John Burnthall would be a villain. I think he'd be a good Shaw and the X Men villain with those Mutton shops and like leading the hell Fire. If he's gonna have Mutton shops, he a thousand percent could be Lobo. Oh yeah, Lexie Alexander directing John burnthall Lobo. It's all come full circle. I'm so surprised that DC hasn't even jumped the gun on Lobo

since that's basically their deadpool. Michael bay Is, I think they're coming in with it. I think Michael is directing a Lobo movie. I think they're coming in and they I want them to bring me on in some capacity. I've pitched for Lobo so much of him coming, But originally when I wanted him, it was like either Joe Magnello, who I think would be perfect as Lobo, um Jason and Mamo is already taken in that universe, so I think the Rock Yeah, yeah, and there you have it.

We can dream. Yeah, Koia, where can everyone catch you? You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c O Y j A N D R E A U. You can find me on Collider Heroes all the time. You can find me movie fighting all the time, because it is the rare opportunity to me to talk as fast as my brain wants me to talk, and you can find me. A to comic cons is here, So I think I'll be popping over to Amazing Con. Why if you guys are in Honolulu, I think you're doing

that one and yeah, and I'm popping. I'm doing more stuff with Nerdis. So just find me on the internet because I love the conversations on Twitter, like Engage. My favorite thing is talking to fans about comics because I

spent my entire childhood wanting to have these conversations. Now that I do it for a living, it's the And I'm going to be on your show next week talking about The Punisher and see we will have watched it, and we will know if some of our stuff is we get a sequel to this, we'll see, Oh, so we should do it. One one theory you have for Punishers season two we kind of touched on. I think they're going to kill Jigsaw. I think I think they're gonna kill Micro. I yeah, I think they're gonna kill Micro.

I think they're going to kill Jigsaw and I think him. Oh, I would love it. You guys are gonna see me tweeting if this happens, I think him and Debra and Wall are going to like actually do it. They've been teasing, they've been teasing. I think she's going to be a surprise that they shouldn't have revealed to us. I think she doesn't come into late in the game and it's a big moment, like she saves him. I think she saves Frank later in the game. And I wish they

revealed she was in it. But it's a good marketing. And I think they killed This is something I'm saying. If they killed two either of those women that are in there, I will be mad because it'll seem like it's just another like killing a word like killing. Yeah, yeah, And um, I want to see him in a Deborah consummate there. Whatever they have going on, I need it. Um. You know, it has a little bit of spice. Those all of those Marvel Netflix series always have a little

bit of spice. And by spice, I mean people doing it in the bedroom. So they got to get some coffee, you know. That was the first episode of Luke Cage when he came back. That was the first thing he did with Claire on the kitchen table. I don't even know this probably is going to get cut on a lot to say, I am at ms Danny Fernandez. Um, yeah, I will be on Collider Heroes. I think there yep, talking about the Punisher with Coy and Amy. Um. And I don't know what cons I'm at, so I guess

just stick around on my Twitter when I announce it. Yeah, and you know me, I'm if you why the way I f y n W A d i w E on Twitter and Instagram, if d s on Twitch. Thank you all from stopping by dropping those Twitch Prime subs. If you don't know, if you have Amazon Prime, you can sign up to Twitch, turn it into a Twitch Prime account and give me a sub that costs you zero dollars and just come by every month and re up that sub. Come hang out on the stream. We're

talking about stuff that happened in the episode. We'll hang out in the discord. Flickery big shout out to him always dropping the cliff notes right in the discord so you don't even have to click in the episode. He's doing that for y'all so we can look at the episode discussion, get the cliff notes, and have that talk right there. Danny's in there. You can tag her. I'm in there, hang out in the discord. That's uh disc

to dot g g Ford slash Salt Squad. And like I said, if he's on Twitch unneath those Twitch Prime subs, a lot of NERD fan coming in. Give it to me. I got to say thank you for that love. Let's keep that love going. You know what if he wanted to say before we wrap, is that you know, we talked a lot about um gun violence and a lot of different things on this podcast, in particular given a subject matter. So just please be respectful to Iffy, myself and Coy. If you do at us, please do so

in respectful manner. If you don't agree with us, it's okay not to agree, but it's not okay to be disrespectful. Uh. You know, it's funny that you bring that up. I wanna quote my good friend, uh Ron Funches. He said something today on Twitter that I resonated with so much, and I'm meant to retweet him or retweet it now after I read it, but he said earlier today quick guide for following me. I say what I want, and if you disagree and are nice, I will talk to you.

If you disagree in our rude you get blocked. My feet is a dictatorship, not a democracy, and uh I feel like that's true for most people's twitters. Just just come with respect. We can have discussions and if you get to heat to just disengage. We don't have to fight. But as always, I'll see y'all online. Staying nerdies