112: Dōjinshi

we're going to get into it. And I'm joined by hosts and writers and my close personal friends Ema five in Chris Lamb, Hello, Hi, thank you so great to virtually be here. I know I miss I miss us. I guess we're kind of like we always see each

other at events, right, like cons and er. It's one of the weirder things I think is that you know, even people in in our profession who largely are freelancers, and you often are working independently at home unless for whatever reason you know you're lucky enough like oh you're in a writer's room or you're on set that day or whatever. There is a lot of sort of independent

work that goes into it. But because a lot of what we do work wise takes us out to events, I feel like I'm often so busy that conventions are when I see all of my friends that I would normally just see in Los Angeles anyway, but we never have time for each other in l A. I know,

I Christ, do you feel the same way I do? Um, that's kind of one of the um things about having good tastes and friends and aligning yourself with people who you know who know their stuff is that they are successful, and oftentimes that means that, UM, it can be hard to catch up, but you know, it's definitely something that um, I try to accept, but it's also hard re accepting

it in this different context, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of weird because I was really mixed about Comic Con being canceled because that's so many people like I feel for the artists, like I feel for the people who really bank on making a lot of money at that time and they that's like, uh there, yeah, time to shine For me as a creator. It was kind of like it felt like I could catch my breath, like you know, and it was just like it's an honor and a privilege to be able to do as much

as we do. However, con season is just kind of one thing after another after another, and sometimes I believe in like quality over quantity, I would say, and so it's just nice getting to me. It was like so mixed because it was like I have so much anxiety,

especially as an extroverted introvert. I feel like that is a thing maybe like all of us are where we like are very um passionate about our craft and really good at what we do, and we're like on camera, but when we're off camera, it's kind of like, Okay, this is my little shell and please don't invade my bubble.

I'm really you know, And so just the whole anxiety, and I think there's an extra level of it's become really Hollywood, like it's maybe I've been going since I was eleven, and it's really Hollywood now, Like they have shows they promote that aren't even nerdy. It'll just be like Kenna ken Wait or like you, I mean young Sheldon, I guess is ners still it'll be Yeah, It's true like that there is with with San Diego Comic Con, particularly there there is this very extreme level of marketing

that's going on. And yet because you do still have your you know, obviously in in recent years they've pulled out, but until very recently, you would have your big Marvel Cinematic Universe paneling, you would have your big Marvel Television panel and your Warner Brothers panel, and so you did feel like you still really had to be there or

you were going to be missing out on something. I know exactly how you feel about Danny because I felt the same way where I was like, it's kind of a relief in some ways, but on the other hand, then in my like Instagram memories, a picture came up of like me and and Xander genre I think, like out drinking on that Wednesday when everyone's first getting into town in San Diego, and I was like, I don't know, it is really fun though, so I just I was gonna say what I feel about it being Hollywood as

it turns into like, hey, did you get into this party? Got into this party? And can you get me into this party? And it's just that's not what it is. It reminds me exactly what happened to us when we were kids, like when we were nerds, and now we're being treated like nerds again because they're not other party and party right, and it's like, oh, you didn't get into the e W party? Okay, well, you know, maybe

we'll meet up with you after. It's just like, it's just like I did not live my life as I'm not going to get in so let yeah, these popular Hollywood people make me feel bad. So that's the other side. I think that a lot of people don't see for at least for us. And so when it was postponed or canceled or whatever, I was like, oh my gosh, the idea that I'm not going to have to deal with the flaunting who you know, who's at this and who got on what panel? Who is doing so much?

And like, I mean, I will say that just in on the sort of opposite end of the San Diego comic con spectrum, what I have found to be. I mean, obviously, there are tons of small conventions around the world that really are more focused on, um, celebrating people coming together to enjoy something that they love, as opposed to as

you say, be seen at a party. Um. But I will say that my experience was Star Wars Celebration was much more like those small conventions, which is like everyone at Star Wars Celebration was there because they loved Star Wars. There weren't any cool parties that people were worried about getting into. Everybody who normally are peers who are in again at that level at San Diego Comic Con, of possibly some of them do get invited to the w party and if you're not one of them, then you're

not doing as well as everybody else. At Stars Celebration, like everyone was just hanging out with the Merriott bar, it was so much more low key, um and it really, it really was. It was so much fun. It was so so much fun. Um. So yeah, that you know, conventions, they're they're they're a mixed bag. But you know idea, I was going to say, it's like apples and oranges at this yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's my and

I do love Saneo. Comic Con has been like my you know, home and love and stuff since my family's from San Diego, so it's been a huge part of my growing up. It was just watching it change, I think is why it was kind of just like relieved to get a break from it, because it is has turned very like I said, Hollywood, and so it just

is kind of for me. I was like, oh, finally I don't have to deal with like the Hollywood networking like media con that it has become, and you know, can geek out about things with my friends on this podcast. Speaking of geeking out, UM, as you all know, every week we talked about something that we're nerding out about, and Chris, I wanted to ask you first, is there anything that you're super into right now? I'm so happy

you asked that. So I think for me, I'm really excited about, you know, miss everything going up in flames and us in this time of heaval right now, I have been anticipating the game Ghost of Tsushima. Oh and can you tell people what it's about? I don't know. Yeah. So it is a RPG made by Sucker Punch. It was announced in two thousand seven, two thousand sorry, two thousand eighteen. I believe UM and they were really inspired by Kurosawa films basically, UM, the very famous black and

white samurai films. If you're not familiar with them, I was not until I heard about Sushima. That's how I get into a lot of things through video games. And UM, I've been actually watching Karrosawa films and kind of preparation for the game, and it's been really really educational and UM, the actor that he has in the two movies that I watched, Seven Samurai and Yo Jimbo. He is very very hot. He's dead now, but he's hot. Um. I

think you would really like him, Danny. No. I mean I feel that way about the guy who plays Satan in The Holleen Man. He's past, but he'll live on very hotly in my heart. He just has like he just has like that level of drip before like drip was invented, you know, Like that's what I'm talking about, you know, Like he has like there's like this really

great picture. I should send it to you. Like there's this great picture where he has like he does that thing where like he takes his arm and like he puts it back into his shirt and like he is like rubbing his five o'clock shadow like through um the neck hole of his uh yukata kimono. Situation. That was really hot that you did it, though. It was thank you, thank you, thank you. Um what about you, Emma, what are you geeking out about? Oh? Well? I finally came

around to playing Persona five Royal. So I played the original Persona five, which was released in two thousands sixteen, or maybe it was early seventeen. Somewhere in that time period, um uh and I had been wanting to play Royal Edition, which is just like the expanded remastered version. They've added a bunch of new characters and new gameplay elements that actually are really really good. It makes it totally worth replaying a hundred plus our game. Um but I had

not necessarily been ready to jump into it. So it came out right before the Final Fantasy seven remake was released. It came out like end of March, and Final Fantasy seven Remake came out April ten, So I went, I don't really want to get into this one. I know that I'm going to start the Final Fantasy seven remake. And then when I finished remake, I went, I don't really have the emotional energy for persone of five yet.

But then all of a sudden, I was struck with I needed to play this game, and it has been so so much fun, particularly to play it on my Twitch stream with an audience. It's just like again, I'm loving all of the changes that they made to the game. The new characters are all super interesting. I just met the school psychologist, who was a new addition to Royal addition, and like, let me tell you, he keeps offering me

to come to his office to have some snacks. You a snack onto yourself, Like, ah, this isn't anything new to the original game. That Danny just to let you know there are adults that have a crush on the high school boy. It's very complicated problem. Sorry, okay, I don't pay attention. No, yeah, but no, no, no, this this I just don't write me. I do not play this game. I don't know what you guys were talking about,

but I just heard. No shame. Just know that there there is um equally as intense things happening in the original Yes, um yeah, this has not crossed any lines as of yet. But listen, he's I am an adult woman. I am into this character, an adult man. Let me be right, right right, there's there's game play. There's role playing, a role playing game. So you're right, you're right, You're right. Um. The thing that I'm geeking out about is actually uh

an artist named Sailor Jubs. She's Julia Mellow. She's a Brazilian artist, and um, she needed too. She was taking commissions because she just moved and wanted to pay for her apartment, and so I bought up a bunch of commissions and had her do my friends and so she did amazing artwork, Like some of y'all saw it on my feed. It was so real. She got Danielle Radford who's been on our Buffy episode, Joel Monique, who is our producer who's listening right now. Um, she did Sabina

Graves who was on our Haunted Mansion episode. She did my friend Kata and Dreusco. Like but just like so spot on, and I can tell you all, this is such a great gift. It wasn't even that much like she was. You know, she had full body or half body commissions where she would do a portrait of your friends and it's like such a great surprise, or like if it's someone's birthday, it was to be in his birthday,

so I sent hers to her. But like, it was just so spot on, and it helped this independent artist pay for her apartment, and it also was a great gift for my friends. So again she goes by at sailor Jubs it's j U b S. And she is such a great artist and just really kind. Yeah, I when you posted those photos I or that artwork. Rather I scrolling through, I didn't have to like see who was tagged in which picture. I knew exactly who everybody was.

It was so and it was so great and it was just like we all have different skin tones, we all have different hair textures, and like she was just able to capture everybody's beauty and um, that was just I just thought she did such a great job. So props to her. And we're talking about art today. Art. So for people who don't quite know or haven't heard the term DUGITSI like, what is that? Well, it is it is very simply fan created works that are typically

derivative of, uh an existing piece of fiction. So while in the States, I think we tend to think of it as only being fan created comics, it also is a term that applies to like fan art collections or two published light novels. The key is is that it

is people self publishing. Like I said, it is largely um work that is derivative of other works, but it's not necessarily like bottom line has to be in order to be considered Dogenci, Right, yeah, yeah, So the way I was going to explain it to people is like, if you know fan fiction, which is like if you read say, Harry Potter fan fiction, that's not written by J. K. Rowling or any of the other authors that have been involved. It is um by fans, and so this is fan

created art. So it looks like manga, looks like a comic book. Um, very beautiful drawing some of them. I mean, you can't really tell between the original manga d I mean you definitely come across Dogenci creators who are real good at mimicking the art style of the original. Yeah. So the only difference between mainstream manga and original Dogenci Dogenci is that Dogenci is not public by a publishing company, itself published. Yeah, it's it's kind of the same way

that fan works. And honestly, you know, like let's plays on video games, right, It's it's all done with the unspoken agreement between the fan community and the original creator that like, you know, okay, like you know, I'll I won't do anything because this is really good for the community and I want to support other artists, and this is a great way for artists to get their work out by using you know, in a pre existing I p so um. But if they wanted to they could. So,

what was your first the first dogenci that you stumbled upon? Well, let me see, I I had a I really think I was aware of doginci in the same way that a lot of people in the US become aware of doginci. And and what I do believe is and really be attitude that a lot of Westerners have towards do ginci um is that it is all uh, adult in nature, shall we say? Um? So, I think the first sort of doginci that I ever came across it was just I was really into this um this computer game called

Ragnarok Online. Uh, and for whatever reason, there was just an influx of dojinci um that was, you know, kind of of the tentacle porn variety, shall we say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

which I which I came across um. But I definitely also uh, as I got more involved in fandom and in fan works, Uh, the first ones I can remember where there was really like a story to be followed, and they weren't all necessarily like really explicit in nature, though they were like shown and I stories are like boys love, which is a big um sub genre with INJOGINCHI in particular, but it was like Gundam wing Um because that was airing onto Nami in like early two thousand's,

I want to say. And so at that point we had also like just gotten high speed internet. Uh, and I I did what all not all, but many many young women who get into that particular show or any any other number of shows where the majority of characters are the primary characters are young attractive men, you know, b shownn um. And I started off being like, I don't really like any of the girls on this show.

I'm gonna write fan fiction um. And I was writing like Mary sus um, which if you don't know what a Mary Sue is, it's a It's a very uh idealized female character, often seen a sort of a self

insert when creating fan works. But then I pivoted completely into being like, no, I want these boys to kiss each other um and uh and yeah, so I would say that there there was definitely some like Hiro Duo, Gundham wing Ocean she that I And it was the same thing where it's like I started with like dipping my even though again I'd already I had gone like full tentacle porn, and I was like I need to

step back from this. So I was like, oh, this is like kind of a nice love story and like they kiss but it's not anything explicit, or maybe they even just hold hands, but you know that. I then I pivoted into full on pornography. But yeah, wow, what about you, Chris. Yeah, so I started. I can remember it like it was yesterday. Um, it was Naruto and

Sauce easily. And I definitely was kind of in the similar trajectory of like, Okay, you know this is shown and I, which is known to be not porn you know, it's it's very light romance. It's about the romance, not about the sex, you know. And so I was like, hmmm, this is a little boring for me. I want something a little bit more raunchy than this. I want to see them actually do things. And so I looked further.

I found what I wanted, and I also found a lot more narrowto ships, because I mean there's so many characters in there. Obviously it's tread or show really um awesome as Sen Sa Kakashi and Dha Sen say um. And then I think that was kind of like my gateway into ntai proper. And then my gateway into actual

porn with real people. There's this weird trajectory. I I'm pretty sure I've told Emma this before on the podcast Live, where I had this weird sense of like, oh, these aren't real people, and so like I'm better than most of the people that are actually watching actual porn, Like that's for the really raunchy and sinful people in this world. And then I just joined them. That's so funny to

be like I'm observing art. Yes, yes, that I think that is exactly the attitude that that a lot of people have is yeah, you're like, these these are drawings, this is artwork. Somebody like took the time to do this. I mean they are very beautiful, meticulous art, but also

boobies yep, yep. Um mine was I talked on y'all's podcast, and mine was Vegeta and Boma from Dragon ball Z. Because I think when you look for it's the same reason you reach out and read fan fiction is when you're looking up do Ginci is because you're looking for more. You want to like see the things that they're not showing on the show. Yes, exactly right, exactly right. Yeah, So you're like, what what is happening when they're not fighting? What is happening when the TV turns off? And so um.

So that's why I was looking at Vegeta Boma and they have beautiful, great, also very sexual um strips, you know, these manga strips of them. So we're actually going to dive into the history of do Ginci right after this and we're back. I'm still here with Emma and Chris.

We're trying to not be too spicies, just spicy enough because y'all are gonna y'all are gonna go and look at you know, we will tweet some of our favorites that were allowed to allowed to post, so okay, so we'll we'll get more into this as we get deeper into the history of DOI. But one of the reasons that do has been able to continue to exist without any pushback from publishers is because it doesn't have mass

market distribution. Yeah, I mean that's true. They can sell it though, because by so technically they are making money off of To me, it kind of reminds me though, like we were just talking about Comic Con, when you go to artists Ali and the print of Iron Man and so that artist is able to make you know their own R in their style, but using an I Marvel I P. But however they can make money off

of it, correct, Yeah. Yeah. Usually the way that I've noticed that a lot of people sell it if they decided to sell it online, you know, like publicly like easily findable, is they won't name the I P that

it's from or the character. Right then it'll be like, you know, if they're selling like a Sailor moon fan at Princess something that reminds me of like in Mexico there's dragon ball Z toys and it will just be Power Up Man and it'll be like like it'll just be like but it'll be Superman's body and Goku's hair. It was amazing, amazing Golden Power Boy. Okay. So the history of jo gin Shei. The pioneer among jo ginchi magazines was actually Morning Bell. It was published in the

early Meiji period since eighteen seventy four. It's not a literary magazine, but it played a big and spreading the idea of dogin she So. The first magazine to publish do gin Shei novels was Library of Odds and Ends. It was founded in eighteen eighty five by writers Ozaki Koyo and Yamada Bimo. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it was all the way back then. Yeah. I also, I also love the name Library of Odds and Ends. I think

that's such a cute name. I know, it sounds like it could be like a cute Netflix show that they like Visit Different. Yeah, it's it is. It's really interesting to see people that are pioneering in the field of like self publishing or publishing fan derivative works. It's amazing to think, like, oh man, because I mean you think about it, I'll bet that back in the day, in the in the days of like the Greeks and Greek mythology, there were people out there that were that were writing

fan fiction about the gods. I mean, that's basically what it was. It was all just like word of mouth stories being like, yo, if you heard this story about Zeus, no, tell me more, you know, right, I mean, like he owns the rights to that, No, yeah, exactly exactly. So fast forward to Comic cat which is the world's largest comic convention. Is that still true to this day? Yeah, Oh definitely, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it's certainly in terms of the distribution of dojin Chi. Comic Cat is like

the event. Oh I would I would say that Comic Cat is actually so well known that is actually featured in like Slice of Life anime world, you know, like especially right when when you have anime that's about like manga cow or people that really love drawing, or people that are into Yawi, which yes, there are animals that are now about people that like Yawi. Yeah. Can you tell people that Yeaowe is for people that don't know yea and I would I would love to Danny think

so much. Um Yawe is basically manga that is implied to be smutty that's usually between two men and with very large hands. Funny, how funny? Um okay So. Comic Head, which is the world's largest comic convention We've fast forward uh century, is held twice a year in Tokyo, Japan, and the first one was held in December with only

thirty two participating circles and an estimated six hundred attendees. However, about eight of them were female, which I find so fascinating, like scrapping, Yeah, because women were having a hard time getting published. Imagine that, uh So, I think that is why there is a lot of participation from women. And also, as Chris and I've talked about pretty extensively even on

this episode of the podcast. Up to this point, there is this big market for yahwee and shown and I stuff, um, which wouldn't necessarily be published by publishers because you're dealing with a taboo subject of homosexuality. Um. Even though a lot of the time the shown and I and yahwe stuff is a little problematic because it's really women projecting their sexual fantasies into a scenario wherein there are no women.

It's gotten a lot better in more recent years. Um. But yeah, I mean because because of that, it was it was allowing women to put work out there to be purchased by other women. Yeah. And that's the thing is, I don't know if you like so much of um DOGENTI. At least the ones that I am into is very romantic. It's very like heavy. You can feel that even the men. We talked about this on my episode of the show,

they are kind of drama in a feminine way. There's so much really female gayzey boma and do a boma and vegeta DOGENI. It's kind of amazing, especially when you consider the fact that that dragon Ball on a base level is marketed towards men, towards boards specifically. Um. But the fact that you know, you do have all of these women fans, I think that's another reason why you do see so many um, dog Chi Car Doginci creators,

uh and Dogenci circles. So so like creators kind of all come together when it comes to do Ginci, and unlike in manga where typically it's the same person who's drawing and writing the story, with Dogencia, a lot of the time you will find like, oh, so and so did the art, but some other person did the story or somebody did the backgrounds, and like they're ultimately kind of giving more credit than like a single manga car

who certainly has assistance. Um. But I think, yeah, it's like you're also dealing with all of these women that enjoy uh media that is more targeted towards men, but they're getting something out of it, and so, as you say, Danny, like they want to write those stories of what we're

not seeing when they're not fighting. You know, Yeah, it's kind of the sense of removing the male gaze and just really making work that appeals to that sensibility, right, because you know, obviously probably men were still uh inserting themselves into everything back then. So which isn't to say that there's not a lot of really weird you know, objectifying of women that happens in do jin chi and

stuff that's really male gazey. Oh, that is very much out there as well, absolutely, um, and I think, oh sorry, Um, I just wanted to also mention, like I wanted to kind of emphasize how secretive this whole especially, Yeah, we had to be back then, right, because it even came in the term which we discussed in our podcast of the term fujoshi, which is referring to the women that enjoy Yawi and shann and I, and basically, roughly translated,

it means rotten women like rotten, like like fermented rotten, you know, like ye smelly smelly. Yeah. So so okay, so women who enjoy gay art essentially as run. But is that term also for the men or is it just the women that are So it's it's a really interesting, uh, this situation because you know, we've talked a lot about shoon and I in about Yahwi, which is created almost

exclusively by women and for women. There's another completely separate subset of like gay porn effectively in the dogon Chi market, which is bata, which is like fours that is actually created like four gay men. It's very it's very interesting. Okay, So I wasn't aware that Yeahwi was mainly for what it's for women and it's almost exclusively created by women. I did not, I know, isn't that fascinating? Well, Chris, I mean, I hope this is okay because we're such

close friends. But like, was that I mean when you said that you were watching Yeah, like are looking at yahwe like when you were maybe before you came out or whatever. Like I guess I'm trying to say, like is it since it's just for women, but it seems like a lot of gay men are consuming it and

finding Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, obviously, I definitely think we're in a point right now where a lot of men have been inspired by yeawe that was originally started by women, and now there are plenty of gay artists that I do follow that um also participate in this Yahwe seen. But um, yeah, definitely, I think it would be more apt to kind of talk about. I think M also has plenty of examples to about just like kind of the maybe the aspects of problematic nous

that we've seen, because I think they're pretty common. Like the most common that I've seen is like two guys and then this guy who's like, you know, a ladies man. He's like, oh, you know, I usually don't go for guys, but it's a common trope in porn. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that comes up a lot I feel like is again it's even though it is two men, they're still very clearly defined roles as far as like who the more feminine one is the more submissive one, in which

one is the like dude in this relationship. And as I say, like, this is something that has gotten better over time. Um, but you know, especially if you look at some some early examples, it's like, okay, well, all right, this is about two men, but really it's about women being okay with enjoying sex. Like truly, that's what I think of, you know, and you prefaced this before we

got you know, at the top of this times. But digen, she is not just sexual, No, it's not at all, Like there are their entire threads and volumes that don't have sex. It's just when you're this is often a lot of kids that are into anime. It's kind of like what we're all saying, like this is our the break between this and like actual people are watching ports like when we're exploring I think I found it in middle school, and so you're kind of just like, who

are these characters that I trust? Right? It feels like a safe space because this is like your your animated show that you're into, but it has some adult themes most anime does, um, and so now you're kind of saying, like, oh, this is their dating life. Okay, so this is okay, they've gone on a couple of dates now and they like each other, and now they're gonna possibly explore sleeping together.

Like it's kind of like y a novel, like totally, so they're not all yeah, they're not all sexual, and like I really do want to say that it's a

lot of them is just like regular comic books. Yeah, and even as you say some of the ones that are are sexual, it does have that gradual build up two characters being intimate with one another, and so I you know, I think as far as do Ginci goes in some ways, Japan ends almost more respectful of fan derivative works than the US is because again, as we saw, this kind of publication has been going on in Japan

since the hundreds, um, which is crazy. Uh, but which isn't to say that it hasn't been happening in the US. And certainly, you know, early examples of fan fiction and things in order to get any sort of distribution prior to the Internet would appear in things like science fiction

magazines and other little publications like that. Um. But I think that there's this weird stigma in the US against fan fiction that is getting better of like that somehow it does not take skill, it is not art and yeah in some respects sure, but but Japan really has this attitude with Ginchy of well, these artists need to get experience. Uh, they need to get some kind of exposure.

And so you know, big publishing companies are absolutely looking at what's out there in the dogen C market and going, hey, this person is really good. We should hire them to do something. And in addition to again providing you with an outlet to just create and not have to worry about creating the world just taking characters that you already know when you already like all of that is really positive.

And then, as you say, Danny, there is the sexual aspect of it as well, because again it is not exclusively adult in nature, but the stuff that is you as a teen, because I'm I'm the same as you.

I think I read my first Dogen when I was in middle school or early high school, and you are then able to kind of like explore your sexuality in a really safe way, yeah, and talk to the most of like the places that I would UM frequent had like chat rooms and stuff that I was I was in and we would talk about the DOGENTI that we

had read, or the fan fiction that we read. We would link the fan fiction that we liked, and it's just you know, I was just thinking about this as I'm like working on this show right now that is has middle schoolers as the main um characters, and it's really fascinating because it's such an necessary you know, they're not quite a little kids anymore, You're not quite they're not quite adults, and like it's still a necessary conversation

for both middle school and high school. I think the hands off approach of like pretending that they're not going to get you know, exploring or whatever is so not helpful, and even a lot of times people try to spin it to be perverse, like, well, you're talking about kids and sex like no, but also I lost my virginia when I was a teenager, and it would be great

if I had. You know, a lot of those are virginities as teenagers, and like it's in most media, most shows that you watch about high schoolers or college I

mean or college kids. But like most shows that you watch that have high schoolers or movies that have high schoolers, they're exploring, and I think that it's instead of hands off, like you can't watch this, you can't look at this, you can't whatever, is more like, let me make sure you have the resources so you know what consent is, so you know what um you know protection and think like I'm just so in the opposite direction where I'm very like and that's what I mean when I say

sex positive, and it's like, you know, I lost my virginity to another teenager, so it wasn't like you know those things to and that's okay, And we need to like normalize having these conversations about like not. I mean, I had to hide everything from my parents. And I think I think that's why people when they hear di Genti or anime. Even when they hear anime, they immediately think of tentacle, tentacle porn and hent I like um, and it's just seen as like that's one aspect of it.

It's just kind of exploring these relate what dating is like when you're in middle school in high school, you I think my first boyfriend, you know, we only like mad my made out or whatever. But like I think my first boyfriend was in middle school, and so it's like you're starting to develop. And even if my parents were like, no, don't do it, I'm still going to

do it. And so it's just like allowing kids to have art and literature that is, treats them like in a respectable way of what they're dealing with and not like they're dumb, like you know, idiot said, don't know what's going on. That's a really good point because I never really thought about it. But really it was do Ginci that gave me a sense of representation actually for the first time in my right sure. Yeah, like like

literally it was fan works. Yeah, and so there needs to be, like I think, just a level of respect for this art and think of the people that are making them. They probably are also dealing with those issues of sexual identity, totally interpression, oppression, not being able to come out to their family. So this has definitely been a safe space. I feel for a lot of us. We have to take a really quick break, so much more to talk about. We're gonna talk about a little

bit more of its history and the future. Right after these messages we are back. I'm still here with Emma and Chris. So for people that are new to do Genti, like, what is this word? They keep saying, what are some like famous anime that have really cool do Genti that you would be like, Oh, if you're into this, you should check out this. Okay, Listen, I went full tilt into do Gentci again as as an adult, again as a as a teen. I was real good at the Internet.

I was fine at all this do Genti. I was reading that that gunn Bing stuff, I was reading the dragon Ball, sailor Moon all of it. What really tilted me right back into it because actually, ury on Ice nice. Okay, So some people that don't know that can you explain it to ury on ice is a gay fake your skating anime. It's beautiful and it also was kind of I don't want to say revolutionary, but it was important from the perspective of it. Really was it amidst all

of the amazing figure skating drama. By the way, I watched this show like it was real figure skating. I was like freaking out when people would skate. Um. But there is this very wholesome gay love story in it

that's not really refuted. It's so interesting because there's a scene in it where the two main characters kiss, but like the like URI's just finished skating, and so like Victor like jumps onto the ice to give him a hug, and like the angle of his arm is such that you can't see that the two of them are kissing. But like, it was mostly Western fans that were like that was a cheap shot and did the kiss I don't know, And the creator was basically like, well it

was in Japan, nobody needed any additional confirmation. But again, you're you're dealing with a with a disconnected cultures there, um, I think. But yeah, so there's there's a lot of real good Uryon Nice. Uh, there's a lot, there's a lot of good do What about you, Chris, is there anything that you would recommend for people to like google or look up if they're like wanting to get into it. That depends if they want to dip their toes and

if they want to jump in head first. What is one that's like not sexual that you guys are like this? You know anyone could read this well. I will say that because I think that's one of the reasons that I like the Yuryon Nice stuff is because it hasn't range. Um, there's a lot of nice slice of life stories in there, and there's there's a lot of nice hardcore stuff in

there too. Um, I would say, and again and again, we're getting into that conversation of the it's teenagers, like how can you how can you talk about teenagers sleeping with each other? And that goes back to what you were saying Danny Twilight. Yeah, although I guess he was like three years you know what gross, But Twilight, like when I think of sorry, I mean to cut you off the phone, and I think the dogin that I

was into it was like adjacent to Twilight. It was that heavy like Vampire, which they do have Vampire do Ginci. It was like that, like will they won't they crawling into her bedroom and that's like such a teenage like we saw that in Scream. We saw that and clear explains at all. It's like such a teenage trope, but like that's what we think of teenagers, Like how am I going to sneak out and get my teenage boyfriend? And like I think in that context, it's like it's

you know, people are prudes, is what I'm saying. Totally totally. I was just gonna say, there's a lot there's a lot of really good my hero Academia do Ginci. That is I was gonna say, that's just about like the relationship between the characters. Now, be warned if if you're freaked out, and I respect it that you're like, but they're teenagers. I don't want to see any sexy stuff with teenagers and I get that. I respect that, But again, it's like it is largely teenagers hooking up with other

people their own age. So but I just be aware, is what I'm saying. But there's there's a lot of good not sexy stuff there as well. Um, and just some really good, good art. And I want to say, if you're a parent instead of being like my parents who got sex books from the library and just left them in my bedroom, um, and didn't talk to me about them, just like rented them and put them out there.

And it was, you know, two couples like going at it or like this is what happens when you grow start growing hair here, Um, you can always give you know, give give these more. Um why a focused art and comics to your teen who is you know, exploring or whatever? Um, so they feel seen and okay and and you know, yeah, yeah, it's funny that you mentioned hair because in dog she usually everybody is a smooth of the the baby's but

yeah everyone in waxes yeah. Um. But uh, to answer your question, Danny, Um, I think I would say if you know anime, if you have an anime that you like, and if you know that it's popular, you most likely will be able to find a very wide range of things. Like M said, I think, just go to a reputable um fan work site like my Reading Manga to be aware of these webs The ads on these websites are more aggressive than most of the content. That's very true. I I block those out because I'm just so used

to it. Um. Uh yeah, my reading manga or another site like that. Careful, you know, uh, don't go to anything that looks to seed and don't any links the filtering use the filtering functions, they're very great. They have filtering functions about what you can search up shown an eye or b L and not search for smut borne Um are there any so this is a great question from Joel Monique, producer. Are there any characters whose work better in Dogenti than in their original book? Or? Oh? Crap?

I think that's such an interesting question, right, because the reason why people would make a Dogenti about a work is because they really resonate with the characters to the point that where they would want to labor over drawing them and write an entirely new story, because doing both drawing and writing the story and all of that is a lot of work. So yeah, I don't know if it's so much that like they necessarily work better in

the fan derivative works. However, I will say, you know, bringing it back to something like for me in my my early Dogenti reading days with like a Gundam wing part of the reason that show was so successful is because there was this really dedicated uh female fan base around it that we're creating all of this shown and I and this yahwe content around it, um and and again and it it wasn't even so much alike, oh

this is better. But you know, listen, the show was animated, so at the time you would get a lot more like detail in terms of drawing the characters faces, uh and such in manga. Um. And so for for me, like reading some of that DOGENTI I'm like, I'm like, dang, Like Zex looks pretty good in uh in the show, but he looks real good here. Yeah. Yeah, I would

say that. I don't know if I've ever seen a work that I feel like it's better because but I think there's a sense of building off of something that's a good foundation, right, because it's kind of like how not re anime is like Ryan Ice, where it's the romance is clearly clearly there. There are a lot of works where an ems that are about subtext and purely subtext because you know it was made a while ago or something, and you know it was not safe for

them to create something like that. Yeah, yeah, um or so so so for me, it's more about like, oh in these example is um Studio triggers pro Mayer, Right, Like, there is subtext and something does implied to be there, and so it's great that there is fan works that exists to kind of turn that subtext into non subtext and to make it real. Um, I know that this.

This is pretty cool that many Japanese publishing companies actually sponsor annual manga competitions in which the winner is awarded the publication of they're winning, so they're been a story, so they'll end up publishing it. So are there other stories that you've heard of Dogenci artists who end up going on to being manga and animators. Oh yeah, I mean the most famous example is Clamp Clamp who created Cardcaper Soccer, um Cho Bitz, Tokyo Babylon like all like

they have a huge, huge body of work. Uh and they were a do Ginci circle and to this day they still all work together to publish all of their work. Um. But I mean they they started they started off as a Dogini circle. They were writing um Your Royd and Samurai Troopers. Doin they were writing Devilman dojinci Um. You

can still find it. It's amazing. And then you know they were so talented that they went on to be like some of the most successful women uh manga car that there are, yes, we stand love Car Caper Soccer and code gas Um. And also it's so funny because they've they've created such an interesting body of work that they literally created Spasa Chronicles that literally takes ter from the existing original ips and puts them together in its

own universe. It's very very funny and very epic. Well, and I imagine this is like a portfolio for them, Like it's a portfolio. And then it you know, amass

to having like thousands, sometimes millions of like readers. So now that the digital now that we have things like Patreon and other sites like has it because y'all own physical copies of Digenti that you can order, but like right right that you could, but like, how do people now have their own type of It's it's really interesting because I I have definitely seen that happen more and more now with people that do have Patreons that they will sort of publish full comics that are behind the

paywall of their patreon um, which is awesome. Um I and and obviously you have things now like web tune and there's just there's so many more ways that people can distribute their original work and you know, get compensation for it because of the Internet. Yeah, I I frequent many a Patreon. That's all I'll say about that. UM, well, will definitely y'all can shoot me over some of your

favorites and we can include links for everyone. Um this has been a great intro to do ginshi one oh one, just talking about you know, how it got started, how we got started into hit um emma, where can everyone catch you? You can find me all over the internet at my name M A five wherever m A five's are sold. I got a lot. I got a lot of projects and things that I'm working on, a lot of stuff that hasn't been announced yet, so I'm not

gonna announce it. So just make sure you're following me on Twitter, and then also you can find me on my twitch channel twitch dot tv slash m A five I Tip Bickley stream Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, uh starting at noon. Though because of other work stuff that I'm working on right now, my schedule has been a little wonky. Uh. So you know social media, it's the place to be love it. What about you, Chris, Um, you can find me anywhere at One Winged Chris. It's like one winged Angel,

like Zefroth. Uh. And also please catch me and Emma's uh podcasting. I was trying to decide whether or I should be like, wait, Emma, don't we have a podcast just super super cheat cheese ad. Right? So Emma and Chris have an entire podcast that's dedicated to jijen chi and talking about it in their favorites. In each week they bring on someone. I was on for one to talk about vegeta and boma, which is my favorite pairing. Um if he was also yeah, yeah, so and I

remember it was started. I think from a conversation that we were all happy. Yeah, yeah it was Danny basically had tweeted something saying like, don't send me porn. I don't want it unless it's m R Gina Balmadog and then please send the day. So I jumped in and I was like, I would also like it. Uh. And it's hard to It's not hard to find good ones, but when you find good when you find good ones,

you're they're great and you want to Yeah, for sure. Um, I am at miss Danny Fernandez on all the things. Remember that I will be on sci Fi's The Great Debate this month. I'm in two episodes. I'm not sure exactly when they drop. I think I'm in this week's maybe or next week's um, but I'm definitely in the last episode, which we shot right the day that I think we had to shelter in place, so there was

no studio audience on that last final episode. Very fascinating and they also like checked our temperatures at the set and like we were all set to go, and then it was like are we going to do this? Um? So it was all of us just making each other laugh. It's a really good time and a really good show. So, um, I don't know, if you see it, screenshot it for me and tag me um, and we are going to this week. We'll post some of our favorite do gin cheese so you can see what we're talking about and

hopefully you can get into it too. And again supporting independent artists. So yeah, like we always say, stay nerdy,