Why China is a threat to Australia: With Cheng Lei

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Australia's relationship with China is complex and problematic. I doubt this country fully understands Chinese thinking, or at least the thinking of the Chinese government the Communist Party. They send ships to circumnavigate our country, the act of a bully. They impose trade sanctions and then scream about trade sanctions imposed by others, the act of a bully. They still have not answered fully to the origins of COVID. They see human rights as and irritation. They execute more people

Chang LEI, thank you Neil for speaking up for me.

Look incarcerated, Well, a lot of people did. A lot of people did before we get into what happened, and I want to know what you see for the future and how you interpret Australia's relationship with China. The name of the podcast is Neil Mitchell asks why so you were arrested interrogator six months eventually tried sort of sent to jail And the question that kept coming to my mind reading your book, why why do they do it?

I have a few theories as to why there is the timeline of Australia asking for the investigation independent investigation

But they put extraordinary resources into it, didn't they. I mean, you were monitored and then interrogated for a long time. They put it an enormous amount of effort into it.

The Ministry of State Security has a very very generous budget, and I almost think that when they can't justify that budget they grab people to make sure if the budget doesn't get cut, to justify their own existence. Because as far as I know, at the Beijing detention facility where I was held supposedly for spies, they're only around thirty two inmates. And to think there would have been three officers per inmate, and the surveillance and just the ultra tight security. It's a lot of money.

I noticed I picked up a point in your book about the budget because they've arrested you and put you into a flash BMW to take you off to Yes seven series, So it's sort of hostage to planetry. Really, that's what it's about.

Well, and the fact that I was ethnically Chinese, especially when and with others when they have when they're American Chinese or Canadian Chinese, there's sort of we're seen as easier targets because there's somehow it's somehow easier to suspect us of not being loyal to either country. And there's also the fact that I was critical of China's handling of the pandemic in various social media posts, and China is very what's the word vengeful when it comes to anything any criticism about COVID.

I think about a month after you we arrested. Wasn't Bill Birtles from the OBC and Mike Smith, Yes, in review they believe the country very quickly. Would that be a similar reason, Well, neither of them Chinese origin. But with that that's true. But three Australians at least.

Yeah, at least they didn't have to go through what I went through. But it certainly was all of it was just trying to slap Australia in the face.

There's another aspect of that too, I wondered, and I thought about this with Bill Birdles and Mike Smith. If they had been put through what you were put through, yep, I think the outrage in Australia would have been louder. Do you think, I mean, was that relevant that you could be as an Australian citizen treated the way you were, but because you're of Chinese heritage, Chinese origin, they didn't expect anger in Australia.

Yes, I think there's a After the two Canadian Michaels who were arrested in China and a tit for tat after Canada detained the Huawei CFO Mawan Joel, the outrage there made the state security apparatus think again about grabbing a hostage who is Caucasian.

How do they use that? Do they? How do they? Nobody at any stage I assume from within the Chinese system goes to the Australian governor says, well, you behave yourself. Look we've got of course not in China.

Nothing is verbalized.

That's sort of the subtle pressure. Look what we can do a form of bullying. Really, that's right, subtle but blatant subtle. Do you think they achieved what they wanted to achieve all that money? I just kept looking at the resources that went into.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even when I was at the halfway House. Three days before my freedom flight home, twelve officers booked out a three star hotel on the outskirts of Beijing, guarding me day and night, watching me sleep, just to make sure that nobody knew, nobody got wind of the fact that I was getting out. And it's about face, although they have no shame. It's about the idea that

Where was the racism against Chinese Australia in this country?

Yes, really, maybe it's because of COVID and maybe it's because of our I guess what's in the news headlines.

You're guilty. Your guilt or innocence was irrelevant, obviously.

But if you thought through, anyone can be made guilty that I know of. That I'm sure of because just speaking to the other cell mates and how flimsy all of our cases were. It doesn't. I mean, it's a closed trial. Mine went for ninety minutes, which when I told Lawyer's Forum, they will laugh. They said, here, a show trial is two weeks. There is really a show trial.

But I understand the motive behind it. So how they provoke it, that's sort of it's a message to Australia. But is this something you did? You mentioned breaching an embargo, which is.

An embargo that something journal no, no, no, no, an embargo that nobody knew about until a year later in the prosecution phase when the prosecutor saw the case threw it back at the investigating officers. And said you need to have a document that that talks about this so called embargo time. And that's when they went to the Classification Bureau and said, do up a document that says this,

I've broken a few myself.

Thank you for making me feel better.

Your father has been a direct critic of the Communist Party, and he described a non social media as an evil cult. Yes, which a lot of people would find hard to disagree with any part of the reason. I mean, they'd be monitoring that, wouldn't they'd know what he was.

But they did question me quite a bit about whether I was close to my dad and why he felt like that. And I mean, I'm sure they were monitoring his social media account, but he's here and he doesn't have many followers.

Why did you?

But I think they were trying to get at the way my mind works. You see. The whole difference with the Chinese system, or perhaps the Communist system, is it's

M did how did you? Why did you go to work the way you're speaking now? Did you when you went to work in the system, the Global Chinese Television Network, which of course is basically state owned And I had a look at it today, there's a lot of propaganda in there. Why did you go and work there? Did you? Did you think it would be different to what you now see?

Well, this did not come in twenty twenty. I joined its predecessor in two thousand and two when it was still a fledgling English TV station, really needing somebody with my skill set, which was business degree and education and experience and bilingual, and I was an accountant feeling very bored in the job, wanting to use that bilingual advantage

So did you. But into your mind, I'm entering I'm going to work for an organization which is really part of the Communist.

Party the way, so it's stretching it the way I thought about it. English media, whether it's the state TV station or a foreign TV station, the way they work in China is much freer compared to Chinese mass media because you really need a certain there's a barrier of entry to understand English TV. And what the Chinese government is most afraid of are the have nots, because they can rebel, they don't care, they don't have anything to lose.

How far has Chinese security on that basis the Chinese security apparatus to infiltrate the media, I mean, looking back, was it part of the global Chinese television network? Were the people who you thought were you were friends or certainly colleagues who were watching you on behalf of the security authorities.

I don't believe that they were watching me. I believe they could have installed some surveillance equipment in my apartment because the way they rated it, they knew exactly where I spent time and didn't go to the other rooms. I knew that a few colleagues had been spoken to by the ministry, but at the time I thought that was just parf of the course. You just if you reported on general news and political news, then they were interested, and all they do is is have a chat to you. That's how they If.

I was so, you don't think you were spied on by colleagues, I.

Don't think so. But certainly they did pressure my former colleagues to testify against me. Yes, with their testimonies.

Would it be normal procedure of working an organization that to be a member of the Communist Party For.

The Chinese media, the Chinese TV stations to get on air you have to be a party member. For the English channel, no, because the whole point is to have native speakers and foreigners to be the on air talent.

So you were never asked or directed to join the party.

Were all foreign citizens. I didn't know that we could, or well not that anyone would have wanted to. And in fact, many of the staff there, the producers and supervisors, were not Communist Party members.

You mentioned the book a thing called a propaganda directive.

Oh yes, now you.

Can imagine the hackles going up after a lifetime in journalism. What is a propaganda directive? And were you subject to one?

So when I was at CNBC, they were in a joint venture with the second largest media group in China, SMG, and because I was in their using their studios, I saw their propaganda directives because they go around to all the Chinese media organizations, and I used to have a laugh just reading them. And one day when I tried to photocopy one, I was kind of tapped on the shoulder and I think people thought this is not good

So they're asking other journalists to stop the foreign journalists from doing their job.

Well, it's asking the media organizations, and it goes around to other organizations, perhaps the police stations as well.

I was in Beijing not long before the Olympics. I went it might have been a year, but I did a preview and looked some of the facilities were just fascinating the city.

I must have been on the same tour. Was it the one organized by bocog.

No, it was just just us, but we did have a government guide with us, who I assume was watching what we did and of course making sure we behaved ourselves. Yes, but I remember we were We had made all the arrangements to broadcast from Teneman Square. We had the lines in all the appropriate thing, the approval from everybody, and the night before we got a message saying, no you can't go.

Oh, I said, what were you going to do.

There's going to do the program live from tinam And Square. I've done it for the Great Wall, I've done it from Changy I've done it from the Washington Monument. You know here we are in a world famous spot. Nothing. Well, we would have talked a bit about the history of Tenam Square, obviously, and the message came through, No, you can't do it. Here's the written authority, We've got everything. Yeah, we'll do it. No, no you wan't to it. Well, I'll send my producer down and he will report on

Of course. I think what they might have done, as I know, is the process is when it comes to foreigners, foreign journalists, they will go and look up everything you've reported on and yeah, Neil, you would have had, you know, lots of red flags.

The funny end to it has ended up interviewing that on the last own Beijing Broadcasting for the hotel room because we couldn't get to TMN Square only your John Howard was then Prime Minister, told him about me. He thought it was hilarious. He had to be good. If that rested out of the way, well back then.

It would have seemed like a joke. Unfortunately now it would.

Just be Yeah. In fact, I, having read your book, I don't think i'd go anywhere near China, even if I could get in, which I don't think I could. I don't think I got near it.

Now.

Did you lose friends through all this?

Oh lots. Yeah, I've lost money, I've lost my reputation.

I have lost your reputation, well in China, not just.

In China, but you know how many people around the world my old contacts would just dismiss me as somewhat dodgy. You know, even if I have yeah, I was wrongly accused at such a there'd still be that question mark. And I think even for people I meet now, they think, is she really not a spy? Maybe she's Maybe she's you know, this is a grand scheme by the Chinese. Maybe she's a Chinese spy. Still, it's just I see the I see the doubt in.

You can see the limbs of the public. But surely not friends. Surely friends don't doubt you, do they?

Obviously if they doubt me, they're not friends.

But there are people shunning you on them. Yes, that's sad, it.

Is, It hurts. And then I have also gained so many new, brilliant friendships and just received so much more that it's just a new beginning.

Who were they just digressing? And who are the Australians still in jily?

Well, doctor young Jin Beijing?

What's happened with him?

He's well. Next February will be the two year limit for converting his death sentence to a life sentence. So that's a big, big milestone. But we're just hoping we can well. Actually, personally, for me, I would really like his family to speak up because I know that there are there are reasons why they haven't. But this is a man who is who has been there six years and is suffering. He's turned sixty and his health is terrible. He's forced to perform strenuous labor in terrible conditions.

And why again the question why why are they doing this to him?

Okay, so one telling, one telling thing that I heard from an interrogating officer. He said it off handley, but it really impressed me as he left a deeper impression, which was, Oh, people like you are kind of okay because you grew up in Australia as in overseas. But the people we really have and the people really want to punish harshly are those who used to be in our system, who used to be one of us changed. Yeah, so that's possibly the biggest factor.

Do you fear for his future?

I can't see how if anything happened to him in jail it would be a good look, or that it would be good for relations. But right now I think China has more on his plate than relations with Australia. So it's just not a priority, even if we made it a priority.

Not to get to that time this morning. And yes, but let's talk about what happened to you. You say at one stage death was appealing.

Yes, Why when every minute is painful, when the past seems just like an ugly mess of mistakes, when the present is like walking on glass, and then when the future is this big black hole, you want to block all of it out. Your brain has no respite. You want to turn the whole thing off, and you want physical pain to override all.

That, But you wouldn't have had the ability or the facility to kill yourself.

That's the thing. The only hard thing in that cell in RSTL were the tiles in the bathroom, And so when I was on the toilet, I would stare at the tiles and fantasize it'd be tantalizingly close to just bash my head against it. And even if I thought, even if I didn't die, would have the pain to distract me?

Is that? I was going to say? Do they break you when I And that's that's the interrogation center. When you're in jail, it's clear you're not broken because you're causing you're doing all sorts of things to reassert yourself.

As Claire are you from the Australian says you were Captain fun.

Well, you were the the Did they break you?

No?

Ow? Why? How did you? How did you keep yourself together? With one stage You're sitting there between people for hours on end, not allowed to move.

Yeah, what was that? That's rsd L.

That's RSDL stands.

For residential Surveillance at a Designated location. And first of all, designate. That location doesn't mean squat, it's just whatever wherever they put you. And in fact it was one hundred meters away from the detention facility, which is where you go after you're arrested, so it is it's not benign at all. And then residential, how do you call that residential? It's

Thet What are you sitting there? Are they asking you questions? They're interrogating, They don't talk to you.

I would I even wanted to be interrogated. As painful as that was, at least it took your mind off things, and it was something to do so I would go for days having a only said a few words.

And this is what a form of torture to break you, to get you to do what's.

An exactly, to sign confessions, to be on video and confess and then, as they call it, then they've done their jobs.

Which you did in the end, Yes, I did to stop that.

Well, even if I didn't, I think I would just have been sentenced longer.

Did you expect any rights? I mean, September twenty twenty, you're at work, or you're called into work, you're put into the fancy BMW's and off you go. Did you expect to have any basic human rights? Or did you think, well that's it?

Well the first day I thought I would be able to call a lawyer. How stupid was I?

Yeah?

Yeah, so yeah, yeah, no, no, so the lawyer. I didn't see my lawyer until ten months later.

And RSDL How long were there six months? Six months of interrogation and torture? Yes?

Then were then about one hundred meters down in the garage in the same facility. I thought I would be going somewhere with space and seeing grass and sky, but no, it's another cell.

What was that like? Was it better than rstl.

Oh massive upgrade.

Yeah, because actually the food wasn't bad.

The food was good in RSDL. That was the only good thing about RSDL. But the rest, I mean, I would take starvation over RSDL. Yeah, starvation with somebody else is actually preferable.

And how were you treated in jail?

It's called detention?

Detention, Yeah, but it sounds like after school.

I know. I see it as a lot worse than jail because you are in the same room for years with the same people. Whereas in jail, yes, you have to perform labor, but you see a lot more your brain gets stimulated, whereas I can see it in my cell mates. If they don't actively study and exercise and talk, the brain atrophies very fast. They start to forget the simplest things and they just start to lose lose the will to do anything.

Did you were in the cell with two or three women time other women and you didn't always get on but you know, as you say, Captain Farm was trying to keep things going. And look after the morale, did they take you out of the cell, do they keep questioning you? What do they do? Well?

By the time you get to detention. The interrogations usually stop because you've already signed your confession and all you do is wait. I call it the cold room of the judicial factory. So the abatoir is RSDL and then we're just kept there and then go to the supermarket, which is jail.

So when did you go to the joe?

I didn't.

You didn't.

I was sentenced two years and eleven months, and that meant that I had already served there.

I served it, and that was that your trial.

You got two years and eleven months, yes, which which when you think about it, is an absurd sentence, especially for a state security case, which you know, if you think of the starting meter for a taxi, which is three is three years minimum. And I got sentenced to two years and eleven months because had they sentenced me to three years, that would have coincided with the exact date of our Prime Minister Albanezy's visit to China.

And that's why it happened.

I mean, you do the maths. I mean our viewers and listeners can do the maths.

Yeah, but as you can understand, it's diffult to comprehend that there's we've got a judge sitting there, and there's these dreadful treatment of you and the judges being influenced by political considerations. So the judge is being told what to do. Of course, he gave you you were not that, didn't he.

I'm sure he was happy to see me go earlier than otherwise, but.

He told you, he sort of gave you the indication before official sentencing that you would be okay.

Maybe he was afraid that I would faint in court or something. They do make you wear that giant nappy, what yes to go to court? They make you were an adult nappy just in case you crap your pants.

If you could do that, you would done a lot earlier.

Actually, that is so true.

I love the way you were using music. Well, the things that kept you going was books and music basically, that's right. How many books did you read?

More than three hundred?

Favorite one? And oh that's that's so hard.

Yeah, And it depends which which stage you're in. So in the first stage, it was just anything that was that had lots and lots of words and very very dense, you know, like I need time to understand that sort of book. But then later when I could get more books, I was less stringent about the length of the book, but some of the poems that I loved, I would just replace the drudgery of the cell with the imagery of the poetry.

It's all about the power of the mind. And have you always put like that or have you sort of skipped through life having a party here and there.

I think because some terrible things have happened in my life before the arrest. For example, I thought, if I could get up in the morning after being bashed so hard by my husband at the time than the father of my children, that I lost feeling in one part of my face, and I had blue bruises in my arms and legs and you know, black eye and all that, and I could get up. I could make breakfast for my kids as usual, and I could go to the sports you know, they had a parent's sports day at

But you're also, as you described publicly as nineteen year old, yeah, raped in your own house by an intruder.

Yeah, And what I got out of that was one. Anything could happen at any time, so personal safety is a priority concern. And also I took all of the kindnesses that I experienced from the police officers, the forensic scientists, social workers and lawyers. And the fact that he was he pleaded guilty, he went to jail, there was closure, and that my faith in human goodness never wavered.

Your faith in human goodness never wavered despite a man breaking into your house an assaulting.

Yeah, I mean I actually worried about him being killed or oh, I guess assaulted in jail? Why a young Aboriginal man. And at a time was it a man called Daniel who committed suicide in a cell in Queensland. That was quite quite a famous case. And in fact he had told me when he held me hostage that his name was Daniel, and he wasn't.

But you've been held hostage, raped by a stranger, you've been bashed by somebody very close to you, You've.

I was also bashed by a vagrant in Shanghai, just out of the blue, well actually not out of the blue, because I was showing three friends from Ballina around Shanghai and this guy must have thought, oh, Chinese woman with you know, foreigners bitch and just came up and badly. My nose was a bit cooked for a few days.

So you've been through all, Liz, and here you sit, laughing at times and talking calmly about it all. Are you that resilient?

I have a lot of ways to channel my energies and I get I derive so much enjoyment from even the most little things. So I just took before I came here, Neil. I just took mom to the Good Food and Wine Show, and the fact that I tasted something really interesting called finger lime cavia, and just the idea that you can make finger lime into cavia, these tiny, beautiful listening pink you know crystals, and the way it bursts onto your tongue. It's life is great.

I love your singing of songs and teaching people. And you actually tweak the words of John Lennon's Imagine. You remember the words that.

You came up with a little yeah, I love the bit where I say they get on the piss.

Can you recite some of the words to me? Imagine?

Imagine? There's no detention. It's easy if you try, no guards something trampling our rights. Yeah, and may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

It's a great song. The other thing that's that really jumped out, And.

You know what, I also tried to teach q San to myself, but then we got stuck at the bit where I was explaining Hong Kong mattress. Of course my cell mate is from Hong Kong.

I can't imagine the imitating Jimmy Barnes. I love that. Oh, I love this image of women sitting in the cell singing case at exactly have you met him?

No, I'd love to.

I think I think it will. I think you could. Your love letter to Australia. There's another thing that stood out to me, and that was that was read in this country, was read publicly, got a lot of attention. What prompted that.

So I had been waiting to be sentenced. I was already there. I'd already been there for three years, and I thought, I miss Australia so much and I want people to know so. And the thing is, you never know when the embassy will visit, when I can get the message out, So I had to craft it in my head and keep rehearsing it every day until one day the door just opens and says, you know, O three, which is my code, get ready for your visit. So once I did that, I felt relieved that I had

It gave you some comfort issue irretiting them.

Yes, feeling their anger is gratifying because it means that we had an impact.

How much of what that letter do you remember now?

Oh? Most of it?

Because yeah, what was the most important we have? That's a silly wad. But tell me what comes to your mind now of that love letter to Australia.

Of course, in the documentary, for example, they share a little bit of it which is about the nature. But for me, what's more important is the warmth of the people. And as I said, how many Chinese would go on air like you did and say we must, we must bring so and so home, you know, to speak up for someone who's a different color, who was born in a different country but has now called this country home.

Wouldn't happen in China, No, And.

In fact, many Chinese who come here remain in this bubble. Go to Asian groceries, go to Chinese restaurants, go to China for holidays, and they don't even know what's happening in the mainstream world. And I'd love to see more integration, more acceptance, more integration.

Is it a racist country? Oh, China is very racist, Yes, towards anybody is.

Non Chinese, and there's a hierarchy whit whites are good and then any colored sort of races are seen as inferior. I remember having this argument with my cell mates. They said, if my because we all have daughters, if my daughter married saw, you know, was dating a black man, I would disown it. And I said, why when you are when you're racist, when you are subjected to racism, how do you feel? I said no, I don't like it. I said, so why do you do it to others?

I was one of many who stood up and argued that Chang Lei, the Australian citizen Chinese born Australian citizen being held in China on trumped up charges had to be freed and the Australian government should be shouting about it. A lot of people did that. A lot of people did more than I did, much much more. But for that reason, those very anxious, very keen to interview Chang Lay now back in Australia out of jail nearly two years, about her experience about the country, about the future, and

Well to them, they think they've already improved so much because it used to be much much worse and it's just different standards of humanity.

What about executions, Yeah, well I'm getting I was talking about the other day who's been a world lead and abolishing abolishing capital punishment, a lawyer who's represented a number of people on death row, some of whom have died, and he said, we just don't know how many people China executes. Is that right? We don't know anything, but would have been common? Is execution common?

What I do know is that someone I interviewed was executed for corruption. I mean a huge number and possibly also not She's best friend.

Nothing we can do about that. That limit change.

Well, that's the thing.

I don't think of respect for human life. What is it?

Yes, because of the population size and the culture and the history that it shows in the language. For example, the masses are known as ants or chives, because with chives you can cut a whole bunch off and then it'll grow. So it's like you killed ten thousand people and then soon there will be ten thousand more. Of course, China is now faced with an aging population problem.

I got a problem with rac people. I read you read about the rat people. What do you mean a younger generation of Chinese who don't want to go to work.

Oh, there's life flat? Yeah, yeah, because they think it's all too hard.

I think as you as you can see already, what I'm trying to do is to get an understanding of the country.

Good luck with that in one hour show.

It's true, but some Australia has Australian public I think has an impression of China's being a bit dangerous, to be threatening, mysterious.

It's a huge understanding gap. Think of how many Chinese people have been to Australia and understand English and can read about Australia and the other way around, and you know, in academia, in politics, in business and everything, they know so much more about us than we do about them. Why because it's harder, I think, and also because Chinese people have been repressed for so long and they want to go abroad and learn things, and perhaps we don't have the same curiosity my Chinese.

Well friends of mine Chinese say the Chinese people are very good, decent people. It's the government that's a problem. Is that fair?

Yes and no, because the government is made of Chinese people. But then you also have decent people who are in government. But why are they still there?

Is because this climate of fear and intimidation that you've been describing that you've been through, you've seen firsthand.

I almost think it's genetic. I think if you look back in history, with each change of dynasty in China, the population gets halved, so it weeds out all the rebellious people. I think, Neil, you know you're lucky you weren't Chinese.

Can you explain to me how the Chinese government sees Australia.

I think for many years it wasn't seen as a priority strategically it was just seen as a middling country and we can make friendly noises towards But I think in recent years they're very concerned about aucus. They think that that alliance means some sort of daring to provoke China. But then they also think they can do a lot to get Australia back in line. But I don't think.

But how's Australia in any way a threat to China because we've got a miniscule defense force by comparison. We'll talk about that later. We sort of wander through life and we really want to get along with China because we need the money. Yes, you use the term in visible prison. What do you mean?

I mean if we every time China retaliates when we think we have just expressed our values, and then we back off a little and then we think things are right again. It's a bit like being in an abusive domestic relationship where I used to start to bite my tongue, my personality change because I was afraid of my then husband's outrage and then the outburst and then having to clean up the stuff that is smashed or things that

So it's China keeping Australia in an invisible prison because they have the economic power absolutely and therefore our lead.

And also they can do things like hostage diplomacy that we can't do back.

I've interviewed a lot of Prime ministers over the years. They're always very, very careful. I understand that to an extent, and diplomacy is a complex area. But do they need to stand up more often and beat the Australian drum.

I think China, as it gets mightier and mightier, is forcing more and more countries to do that. But if Western democracies can have some sort of consensus about still standing up for human rights and protecting our citizens and our values, then I don't think that's going to lead to war. It's just about setting boundaries. I wish now in my marriage that I had set those boundaries instead of out of fear, out of love, even to put up with it.

You love the man who bassed you, I did.

I loved the kids that we had together.

The invisible prison, the economic power? Is that what Belton roads about, as you know, a very contentious issue in Victoria because Daniel Andrews sort of the answer that life thing verse and everything and went off to China without media and even knows what happened there.

But he's still got business ventures there, right he.

Has, I think so. Yeah, But because he's not a public figure, so we don't know.

That's why when he was a public figure, he didn't raise my case with the Chinese officials.

Is that right?

Yeah, even with DEFAT notes to do so.

So what DEFAT asked him to raise it and he didn't, that's right.

How do we know that because my colleague at Sky applied for the freedom of information documents that he did have those talking points from DEFAT.

Yeah, But how we know he didn't raise.

It because he said he didn't.

I didn't. I thought he wouldn't answer it. But he did say he didn't, Okay, he didn't.

He said I didn't see anyone in the judicial system, therefore I didn't raise it. Okay, But that's not the point. The point was to raise it whenever we could, of.

Course, of course, so Belton Rode clearly as part of that. There's a lot of that being discussed at the moment. What about Taiwan. I noticed the Policy Institute saying that only only in the past few days that Taiwan is the trigger point potentially between Australia and China. Yeah, and that China is probably and I've heard this many times over the years, they're probably preparing to invade Taiwan.

What do you believe, well, economic blockade, certainly, and I worry about what that's going to do to our overseas Chinese community, Chinese as in mainlanders, Hong Konger's Taiwanese, Lasian, Chinese, et cetera. They're all going to have very different views about what the Chinese mainland does with Taiwan and every you know, I had to watch, unfortunately for three years the state news, the propaganda, and day they have a few minutes on the military, and you just don't see

But some people obviously see Taiwan as and the conflict if it happens between China and Taiwan mainland China and Taiwan as being a trigger for conflict in the Pacific Australia I canna say unequivocally, not quite unequivocally, but strongly supporting Taiwan. Is there any possibility that you see of a war footing between Australia and China?

Not at this point. But I don't I don't think anyone five years ago could have foreseen what's happening in the world now.

Yeah, what do we do with build up the military? But we're so far behind.

And Trump and luckily we're so far away.

What about the ships circumnavigating Australia. What was that about buildings? It seemed to him.

Yeah, it's projecting it's power, not just in Japan and around the Philippines, but.

Now now here is China expansionist? Does it? Does the country want to expand or does it? Does it want to control?

It wants control. I don't think it has the wherewithal to really invade. I'm not doing about Taiwan because that it sees as just taking it back. But it's just showing, showing off its muscle. And another thinks it's a great power.

Well it is, isn't it. It's very powerful.

But I okay, it's in all the physical senses of the word. It is very powerful. But look at how it tries to make up lies to tarnish my reputation, how it sends you know, all the political leaders send their kids overseas. I think in terms of values beliefs, it's it's not attracting people to go and live there.

Is it. No, I wouldn't even visit if they'd let me in. One thing we seem particularly tolerant about. And maybe it's Australian naivety, the you know, she'll be right, mate. China doesn't and other countries. But China does a significant amount of spying on Australia, doesn't it. Yes, I went hacking, spying monitoring. There was even the head of ASIO saying that they had friends in high places effectively, well not Chinese agents, but friends of Chinese agents in very high places.

I think what's even more? Okay? Two things are more dangerous. One is the insidious fear because of its influence, because the Communist Party is so omnipresent that, for example, I heard before the election of some arguments going on in Wei chat groups of people who are resident in Melbourne, and for example, is the head of the Wei chat group said if anyone talks about Hong Kong independence or

So there's the spying though. Do they colleck this information in somewhere somewhere in China there's a big office full of information about Australia.

Yes, I'm in close contact with Eric, the spy who outed himself to Azio and was part of the Four Corners special last year, and I'm helping him with writing a book about how exactly China's spy's work.

Is TikTok dangerous?

Just kind of funny because it's a fake spy helping a real.

Is TikTok dangerous.

In what way?

Well? As a mechanism of infiltration? Which would your kids on TikTok?

They watch they go on Quasho, which is another version of TikTok?

But TikTok has been effectively banned by governments, as was Wawei. Of course, Yes, the phones? Is that? Is that an overreaction or is that realistic? Is is China capable of using my mobile phone or your kids on TikTok as a means of gathering information?

I don't see it as being that dangerous at the moment, but I mean kids absorbed so much from social media.

It was put to me a few years ago, and there was some video which seemed to support it that there were Chinese agents operating in this country who would go and directly intimidate Chinese students that might be protests. Is that correct? Yes? Do they use their families.

The families in China.

Yes, yes, here's your mother by the way. Yeah, that happens.

As in intimidate my mother.

No no, no, no no, no, not in your case, but student on the street. We don't like where they're doing, we go and tell them stop doing it. And by the way, we just talked to your mother.

Yeah.

Absolutely, so they'll use families too.

That is a classic Chinese government tactic. For example, my friend who works in a US media organization that sometimes covers, of course China, you know, stories that are critical about China, and her family gets intimidated all the time and she doesn't dare go back to China.

Now, have you got family in China? Stio?

I do?

And are they targeted because you are speaking out?

No, but they're quite distant. And there is an even very pro CCP Auntie who kind of refuses to acknowledge me as a result of what happened.

She believes it.

Well, my dad finds it totally inexcusable because she was a victim of their persecution for many, many years and the whole family was tortured, and now she's pro CCP. It's yeah, the kool aid is very strong.

June last year, the Chinese officials tried to block you at our own parlor house during a media event. I was disappointed by the Prime Minister's response, which seemed to me to be a little bit week What was your response.

I think we can all do better. I think maybe our people were caught off guard by what.

An outrageous thing to do in your own parliament.

Yeah. I think it was just such a bad look that nobody saw it coming.

On something else. The Global Times, as I said, I've been reading it. I often have a look at it. The Global Times warned in the past couple of days, the Port of Darwin, yes contentious taken well effectively sold to China, a Chinese company. And they said if it was and now this talk of taking it back, yes, from selling it to service Yeah. And they said if that happened, there would be enduring pitfalls for the country, this country. Why do they want the Port of Darwin

Well, they want the port because it's a good Belton road trophy and they also don't want it to set a precedent that countries can take assets back as as a show of.

You know, Chinese investment, not nefarious like using it as a base at some stage or having it there available as some sort of military base. Nothing that nefarious.

My understanding of Chinese defense strategy is very limited, and I don't know.

Look like you wouldn't trust them though. No, No, it was a bizarre decision in the first place. I can never quite understand what happened.

Well, it was those naive days as you as you say, I think we've all come a long way in the past ten years.

And where are we now in the relationship between the two countries.

I think we're probably at a turning point. We're a lot more alert aware, and I just hope we turn that into action, into more understanding.

See, what is the ultimate danger to Australia from China? I mean it's not invasions. It might be economic control. What is the ultimate danger to Australia.

You don't think the economic control is dangerous enough. I mean, if we can't be ourselves, we may as well be living in China. I mean, where do we draw the line if if we can't tell them off in Canberra, in Parliament, in our own Parliament house, can you imagine that happening in China? At the Great Hall of the People if Australian officials tried to block a Chinese journalist.

Yeah, well exactly. But I mean does that economic control get to the point and you talked about you know, I wouldn't survive very long on radio and China rubby things sometimes, well Daniel Andrews would agree with. But is it ultimately that economic control. So you've got a Chinese control of perhaps the company that owns a radio station. Yeah, and somebody's causing trouble, so the pressure is put on by the manager. They get them off. Is that? What

Well, no, I don't mean that they're going to own assets in Australia and control that way. I just meant, because we're so reliant on our exports to China, our economy on it, and therefore our politicians and policies, then we are going to tone down our criticism.

Your summer, well, one of the things most emotional things in the book I've found was you spoke to your children once in the time you were incarcerated three years and two months, three years and two months on the phone.

And this was because Albanezi and she met at G twenty because from the first day the Australian embassy had been asking for a phone call. And I know that other countries detainees had got phone calls with their families before, so it's not an unheard of thing. And I even said, if you can't do a phone call, how about you just play me at Christmas? Play me a recording of their voices?

What was it?

They said, But it wasn't. But then because they made this conscious decision to improve relations after we changed governments, then they said, oh, we'll be so benevolent and give you this phone call.

So they're that much more accepting of a labor government in Australia.

Well, if you look at it like a game of chess, is this is then their move? And I was the pawn in there too, So by giving me something, they were sending this positive signal and they hoped that the Labor government would forget all that's happened and reset relation, the relationship as it were.

Can it be reset long term? You say we're a turning point? What are what are the paths? What's the fork in the road?

I think we're going from a fairly naive, straightforward you know, lovely friendly fer people to people exchanges and semi cautious business relationship and gangbusters trade relationship to much more cautious and thoughtful on every.

Front from both sides.

Well, they've always been cautious and thoughtful, I think on our side.

Tell me about that phone call.

It's it had. I had dreamt of it for months and months. I didn't I didn't think it was going to happen. So when it did, and when I finally heard my son's voice first, it was just like suddenly I was a mum. Because how you survive is you force yourself into this disciplined You're almost like a robot. You know. I will do this. I will get through each day, and I have to keep my body strong and my mind clear and then not think about, not dwell on what I am missing and what the kids are missing.

So it do make it more difficult in the days ahead, though, having had that reminder. I mean, obviously it's warm and emotional and it does important things for you, But does it make it harder to go back to the cell?

No, because by then I had been so inured to pain and longing for family. I had all sorts of copy mechanisms, and I just loved the fact that our bond was strong as ever, and and that when I did see them again, it would be even better because it wouldn't be just their voices.

As I said earlier, clearly a very resilient person. Things you've been through. But even resilient people go to a dark place at times. Where do you go.

When I feel despondent? I well, now I like to write, I like to swim. I mean, you know, in the in the free world, there are many ways to get rid of the darkness. But in there you just use what you have. And I had people around me. I could talk to them, I could help them. I mean, the feel good from helping somebody else is much stronger and longer, longer lasting than doing something pleasurable for yourself.

The people you were in you were in the cell with. Are they still there?

I think they've gone to jail now.

So you can't have any contact with them.

No, And I tried to contact their families, but clearly they had been either spoken to by the State Security Ministry or they were.

Just scared full stop, which would be reasonable, quite reasonable. How has all this changed you? How are you a different person?

I can now very easily use my hair as dental floss. Obviously, this is now my plea to whoever's up there, stop testing me, because I've had enough. Okay, I'll get it. I'm strong, Okay, But.

Seriously, because you'd come back and you'd be small things that irritate you irritate, did you find a short fuse or a more relaxed approach.

I think I love I love life much more.

We've done some stupid things.

You in skydiving, that's not stupid.

Why did you do that?

Because it was my birthday and I wanted I hadn't done it before? Because okay, so when you're in jail, which I compared to a mini death, you have all these regrets, right, I thought, oh, why hadn't I taken my mom to Africa, for example? Or why didn't I take this risk or pursue that dream? And it's it's not at all about what you have, you know, in terms of things, It's all about what you can experience because they're the only things that stay with you.

And so if you hadn't gone you've gone skydiving.

I would have procrastinated. I thought, oh, maybe another few years.

Maybe one day that mini death. Yeah, how do you do? How is jail me death? What do you mean?

Because you realize there's nothing, you can't do anything. It's a bit like on your deathbed and you realize everything's shutting down. And that's what That's what it's like when you're there, you can't do anything. The life is going on without you, and you're there in a hole.

Do you savor things more? Not just jumping out of aeroplanes, but well, like the fingerlime, do you notice things more? You savor things more. It's a lovely day. It's raining, but a lovely day.

I always compare to what I was experiencing in detention, which was nothing. So I always have that counterpoint, and it's almost.

Bring it back to yourself, to remind yourself.

Absolutely, otherwise you've become blase again.

I don't think you'll become blase about life, about freedom.

I hope not to, and I try hard not to. H I mean, yes, the kids give me the shits a lot of the times, but then I think, how lucky am I? You know I can tell them off, they can shut back at me, and then you know before before bed, I'll be able to cuddle them.

About thirty years ago, I was misdiagnosed the terminal illness, told I had a matter of three months to live. Oh no, Then after seventy two hours they work on. That was a big mistake. Get on with your life.

How did you cope with seventy two hours?

It was tough, but I vowed I would never get back on the treadmill. Yeah, I'd never you know the cliche, sweat the small stuff. I reckon within six months I was so's that's what I'm saying. You've maintained it now for how long have you been out? A year and a half, year and a half a bit more.

Yeah, well that's.

Great, but it's an effort. You're not really doing stand up comedy.

Well, I tried a small session last year and.

How did it go? Tell me the joke joke?

The worst thing was it turned out to be not about the stand up, but about the intimidation from the audience, because while it was a small audience, there were two spies who were recording, recording myself and dissident slash activist of course, and then there was also someone in the audience who was an impostor who told me that he was a dissident artist Badio Tael And it wasn't a month. Wasn't until a month later when I met the real

Of your stand up.

No, I'm still collecting jokes. Oh sometimes I think of and it's so dark, it's probably not funny. So for example, okay, okay, after my rape, I used to sleep with a knife under my pillow, and I used to put furniture against the door because I had these dreams that somebody was breaking in and then in detention because there was nobody who could break in, and I would have wanted to break out. Yeah, you had to be.

I love the last message from your jailers to don't write a book. Books.

Well, when they see their names, I think their faces will blanche. But I am confident that I have been very honest and objective. If they did things, that's what I wrote that, I have not added mayo on anything. And if they were nice to me, I've also put it in the book.

Just finally, on a semi serious point, the two messages are like from you as a person who understands both countries and the good and bad of both countries. So that matter. What's your message to Chinese people living in Australia.

Please use your freedom, Please understand Australia and not just use Australia like you know, like in an extra marital relationship, like Australia is just the wife to come back to and China is the is the mistress, and you can go there for fun and buy things and all the excitement of their old lives and really love Australia.

And your message to Australians about how they should view or deal with China and Chinese.

People, Separate Chinese people and China and the regime.

They are, and be a wharlmed, be warned about the regime. Do they need warning about the regime.

Australians because of the lack of understanding, and also China's so closed to reporting by foreigners that you have very absolutist views on China. Somebody goes there, Oh, I had a great time. It's wonderful. That's you know, so good, such good technology or the high speed trade, et cetera. Or somebody reads about me and says, never go to China. It's dangerous. You'll be arrested right away. And the truth is somewhere in the middle. But I'm not going to

Where will we be in twenty years China Australia.

Oh, where do you think?

I don't know? You're the expert.

If I was the expert, I wouldn't have got arrested. And can anyone be an expert?

Well, that's true, and I really don't know. The ignorance or the lack of concern by Australians worries me at times. The invisible prison you talk about worries me at times. The parent reluctance of some of our leaders to at least publicly take a strong stand worries me at times. And I don't claim to have any understanding of China whatsoever. Where could we be in twenty years time?

I mean, there are activists who are talking about a blueprint for governing China should there be a revolution. But then you know, we're coming up to the anniversary of during the fourth and a lot of people are still saying Oh, the students were wrong. They shouldn't have protested, and they brought the deaths upon themselves. It's so hard to know at any point in time the percentage of views on China one way or another.

But do we need to be frightened in Australia.

I think we need to have more understanding at least to know whether we should be frightened. But it's very hard to get this balanced view. So what happened to me obviously does not happened to everyone. But I hope people can try to understand why it's so paranoid, why it's trying to instill xenophobia in its people, and it's why it's so insecure about its governance.

I said, we're winding up, but one last question, how will China handle Donald Trump? Oh? Too smart?

Donald Trump's handling himself at the moment, China's just waiting for everyone else to get fed up with Donald Trump and then go China's way.

Yeah, Putin thought he could control him. We're not sure he is. Do you think China will out smart him?

But does that smarting me?

Well? I don't know why. Any economic battle at least.

I almost think the US is going into a cultural revolution and it might take years a decade before we see things return.

Really good to speak to you. I appreciate your time. Mojo's back absolutely, I loved that line, the mojo. I've got my mojo back, And I had.

A few drinks at the Good Food and why don't you do.

Change? Thank you and good luck for the future.

But we went off air just about it.

What about you in twenty years time, when will you be What will you be doing? You won't be in China, I'll be betting. But what will you to be doing?

Who knows? I mean, who knows if I'd be in China? In fact, when I think the Chinese consulate approached Sky about a possible journalist exchange, and you know, I'm thinking, hey, I'll go.

Yeah, I'm not let keen on those exchanges either.

Twenty years I'd be still kicking us and learning and growing.

The Mojo's back, chum. Thank you very much, Thank you so much, Neil. Now, just before I leave you to your life, I want to first can congratulate you on showing the good sense to listen to my podcast. Neil Mitchell asks why there's one rule to this podcast. It's got to be interesting and different. I always try to get inside the head of the person I'm talking to before I go. I wanted to take a moment to thank Three point Motors the Mercedes dealers, for their continuing