Hillsong, the global megachurch that has more than one hundred and fifty thousand weekly attendees, three million Instagram followers, and had several a list parishioners, is now shrouded in controversy. The church that made religion hip has faced allegations of financial and sexual abuse and fired their most high profile pastor, Karl Lentz, after his extramarital affairs were exposed. This organization that billed itself as progressive and inclusive, came under fire
for its lack of acceptance of the LGBTQ community. Several reports claim that only those who hit the script were truly welcome, and their slogan of you belong came with an unwritten tagline only if you do as we say. TV series, news articles, and podcasts have done deep dives on the allegations against Hillsong. This week, there is yet
another documentary highlighting Hillsong's transgressions. Joining me on Navigating Narcissism is Noaemi Yurive, who says they were duped and invalidated by Hillsong, bravely stood up to the powerful church and faced a major reckoning about their faith. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental
health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions
of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. So Noami, it's such a pleasure to have you here. I had the real pleasure of watching you initially in one of the Hillsong documentaries. It's really nice to meet someone who in such a brutally honest way related your experiences in Hillsong.
Thank you so much for having me, and I am ready to go on this journey with you.
So yeah, I want to make sure that today we understand your whole story. So let's start at the beginning. What role did religion and faith play as you were growing up?
It played, I think the only role, the only thing I knew. I was born into Christianity, more specifically, a fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostolic church. So my grandpa converted to this church. He was a spiritualist and my grandma was a medium, and they left that life for this new reality or varience of the Holy Spirit that they called. They wanted to understand this new spirit that they were encountering, so
they sold everything. They gave all their money to the church, and my grandpa was a minister and later on supported the church. When they lost their pastor, he kind of became in charge for a little bit. But that caused all of his kids then to be raised in the church. So my dad, being the second to youngest, was born into it as well. And then when I came along, I was kind of like third generation going into this church. So it was a big part of who I was.
I would say the only identity I had was being a Christian. They tend to do that when you grew up in church where you don't really know who you are, they kind of tell you who you are.
Can you educate us a little bit?
Do?
I mean?
What is a fundamentalist church?
Fundamentalism is basically a specific form and it could be within Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, really any religious background, but more specifically within Christianity, it's when they view their Bible or their Holy Text as something more literal. They also tend to believe in end times theology there was going to be an end of times and that the Church was going to be either raptured before all the bad
things happened or after all the bad things happened. So you really grew up with this mentality that you needed to be prepared for the end times, which for me as a kid was pretty traumatic, having separation anxiety from my parents, not knowing if they had been raptured or not.
What was that like as a child to grow up with that kind of rigidity, structure, and inflexible belief system.
Yeah, there was a bit of comfort in knowing where my place was in life, knowing what I could wear, what I could not wear, activities I could do what I couldn't, But it also really felt limiting for sure. Once I started to grow up and have more of a personality, I realized that I was queer. That's where I started to push the boundaries and realize that the boundaries were not very big, like it was a very
small and enclosed space that I was navigating. So really it was to give you examples of things I had to navigate. I was not allowed to wear pants, so I could only wear skirts that were below the knee. My shirts I could not wear like a spaghetti strap or something. Then it had to cover my shoulders. I was not allowed to cut my hair. I wasn't allowed to wear open toe shoes. If I walked into church, I had to wear a head covering. And so that was like a pretty big thing where you saw a
lot more rules for women than men. Usually for them it don't wear shorts to church, don't wear anything too tight, but that was pretty much it. They could do whatever they wanted, and often the responsibility was on the women to not have them fall, and what that means more within that church context was don't have them look at you and see you in a lustful way and kind of like think of you naked. And so it was really frustrating because it was like, Okay, my knee is
gonna make them think about me naked. Okay, that's kind of disgusting.
It's so interesting to hear what you have to say about As a child, there was a comfort in knowing what was expected of you, like there was no ambiguity, right. Children do well with that, as much as they might push back onto bedtime. There are rules that actually gives children a safe base. But then children turn into pubescent kids and into adolescents, and at that point they go
through something called individuation. The adolescent is trying to become their own person, and that adolescence and fundamentalism seem like those two things are never going to go together because the adolescent, by definition, is trying to sort of become more autonomous, to separate a way to become their own person, and in essence, fundamentalism is saying no. And then on top of that Noami, you realized you were queer. Something you had to know was not going to be accepted
in this space. When was that when you realized you were queer? And what was that process for you?
Like?
Psychologically, I knew.
By the time I was about four or five because I had a crush on my preschool teacher. She was cute, So I knew really early on something was different. As I started to grow. I was probably around six years old seven when my brother got married. He's the only brother I have, and I remember he brought my sister in law to our house so we can meet her. My mom was like, Oh, you're the best daughter in law I have, and she laughed and was like, well,
I'm the only daughter in law you'll ever have. And so they were laughing amongst them, and I was kind of just like thinking like wait, why, Like why can't I marry a girl? Like why does it only have to be boys? And so that's when I already questioning
like marriage or love within two people. And I quickly learned as I got older, because I never voiced these It was never a vocal thing that I asked my parents, But I quickly started to realize within the system that it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or that it was that God had created these two people because he wanted them to be complimentary and their reproductive
systems fit together like a puzzle piece. So that's all the language they would use for us as kids, And for me it was a quick reminder that, oh, these two puzzle pieces don't fit together. The ways of talking about that means I can't do that, even though I have feelings for that particular puzzle piece. So it was pretty eye opening as I got older to realize that they were very, very vocal with their homophobia and their view of LGBTQ people being Some people would use language like pedophilia.
This experience for anyone, anyone still sadly in the world, is that for a child, for a young person to recognize that they're queer, it's not easy.
It's not easy.
However, in the context that you were in knowing me, it at some level must have felt impossible. I mean, this must have been really psychologically challenging.
Yeah, it really was, because I came to realization that I couldn't be all of me, that I had to put on this mask in order to feel the qualifiers of what people were looking for. I like to tell my mom that the church I grew up in really taught me to be a great liar. And I felt terrible the fact that I had to have this mask on the whole time, because I was being told that that was bad.
Well, what I'm hearing is that if you lived honestly and authentically to who you were, you were going to lose everybody.
Yeah, and I ultimately did. Once I didn't care anymore and I gave it up. And said, I don't want to do this anymore because if I continue to do this, I will not last. And a lot of young people don't last. And when I say last, it means like suicide ideation.
This show is called Navigating Narcissism, and that frame is just to understand how these sorts of themes and dynamics show up, and what was being asked of you as you were coming at your own knowing who you were, recognizing you were queer. At a total level, almost everyone was being told, if you're not being exactly who we need you to be, then you're going to have to do something about that. Basically who you are, who your
true self is, doesn't work. And that right there is the core of all narcissistic parenting, actually, that the child is never seen for who they are and never cherished and cultivated to grow up to be their own person and to feel that they're loved unconditionally, that their true self is a valued self. And what we know is that when that happens to a person in childhood, the vast majority of times, as that person comes into adulthood, they experience anxiety, a diminished sense of self, a lowered
sense of self worth. In more severe situations, as you had intimated Miami, there might even be suicidal ideation, because basically you're told you're not good enough and so be someone else. As your childhood unfolded, at what point did you begin questioning the teachings of your church.
I started questioning more when it came to science, but I saw it happen more within college when I started taking religion classes. To learn the history behind Christianity and to learn what really is Islam and to learn Judaism not from a Christian perspective, was really really different to me and was really eye opening, and that brought so many more questions, and I started to realize that all
religions had very similar perspectives and very similar values. And I came to the realization that it was no longer space I could be in. So that was a big moment where I decided to end it all and leave my parents' church.
So what was that moment like when you decided to leave the church that your parents were deeply embedded in and that pretty much guided your childhood.
It was hard. I remember I called my mom a few weeks before I did it, and I told her, like I can't do this anymore. I can't be a part of this anymore. My dad had passed away, and I went and had a meeting with the pastor. Before I walked in, I wrote a list of things and I sat down. I pulled in my sister with me for moral support, even though I knew she probably couldn't speak in my favor and my defense because she was a leader and she would be removed from her position
if she supported me in any way. I open my notebook and I start reading and I get to point number two and he quickly stops me, and he's like, I don't want to hear it. I've heard this before. This isn't anything new. He lifts up his Bible and starts like banging it in the air. It's like, you're going to go to hell and you're leaving the truth. And I don't know who twisted you, but your father would not be proud of you. So he starts using all these fear mongering tactics that I had been brought
up in. He starts using my dad against me. I realized that there was no point in saying anything because I wasn't going to change his mind. So I ended up just letting him talk, and tears are rolling down my eyes because my body is realizing that there's something hard happening. So I'm just wiping them away and just sitting in it. So I ended the conversation and I said, I am not here to ask you. I'm here to
inform you. I do not want to be a part of this church as a member, so please remove me from any and all lists.
How old were you when that happened.
I was probably like nineteen or twenty.
It's so interesting to hear you describe this because you had this recognition that this is my parents' faith, not my faith. For all the reasons you had that kind of individuation. To be able to say this is not mine or these attitudes are not mine is not easy for any adolescent to do. And that you did it in such a rigid structure, it's actually quite remarkable. So I have to say to you that what you did there in a large institutional, structural setting is something that
most people can't even do in their own families. Then there was that manipulation of bring and your father, which actually is quite cruel, but even more impressive to me, No Iman, was that you didn't engage, and many people might have felt compelled to clap back, yell, scream, you know, get angry, and you were very steadfast and what you wanted and agains. Like you said, your body knew something
was happening, and the tears were flowing. But it's a very inspiring story to me because I think that this was a system that wanted to subjugate you and invalidate you, and you didn't want to do that.
I just want to take it all in. It was a lot, it was hard. I don't share this one very often, but that following Sunday I ended up going to church with my sisters. The news had obviously spread that I had formerly left, and so during the sermon, which is a portion of a church service where the pastor or someone goes up to get a message about what God revealed to them during the week. For the church,
it's usually last about an hour. He ends up saying a lot of very identifying things, saying that young people were leaving the church, and he's pointing at me the whole time, literally and looking over at me. So he starts throwing rocks with his words, and they're starting to hurt and I'm starting to feel it, and my sisters are kind of holding my hands like no, you got this, like don't listen. And after the sermon was over, usually within these churches, they'll have everyone go up to the
front of the church to pray. So I remember the mom of my best friend came over to me and she stretched out her hand and was like, come and pray with me. And I was like, no, I'm okay, I'm going to pray here, sitting like no need, I don't want to, and she said, I didn't ask you, and so she grabs me pulls me to the front and all of these ministers came over, the pastor's son who was his assistant, and all of their wives started surrounding me and putting their hands on me. That's usually
how people pray. They lay hands, that's what they call it. And they start praying loudly, and I start hearing what they're saying, and they're saying that I have demons within me, and that they want to release these demons, that something has a hold in me, and that God has a greater plan for you know, the typical lingo and manipulation that they used. So even within that moment again, I started crying because it was getting difficult and I didn't know what to do. But all I could say was God,
forgive them, for they know not what they do. And they kind of all like looked at me and started to leave, and they stayed quiet, and I grabbed a clean nex and I cleaned my and I sat down and I was like, I don't know how much more I could take this. That moment was very, very traumatic, and a lot of what the pastor said was very traumatic because deep down I did believe what he was saying, that I was going to hell and that I was twisted.
So that's where the transformation really started internally. But that's where Hillsong also creeped in within that healing process, trying to find a church that was more quote unquote liberal and more welcoming and a place where I belong.
For those who are listening to this and don't know what it is, what is Hillsong.
Hillsong is a church that started in Australia about thirty years ago by a New Zealander named Frank Houston and later on Brian Houston. They ended up spreading the church into all around the world. It became a global church. When a church is that big, they call it a megachurch. So they had just in New York about ten thousand
people attending on a single Sunday. So it came to the US through New York and New York started in twenty ten, and then spread to Boston, which is where I ended up attending.
You said in thirty years, that's not that long ago. This is very recent.
Why did it grow so big so quickly?
Yeah, that's a good question. So I believe it was in the eighties. That's when evangelical was kind of married to fundamentalism and Pentecostalism was starting to grow in the US as televangelism. You see the Jerry Folwells of the World, or the Robertson's Pat Robertson. There's many documentaries Tammy Fay, So all these people were starting to be very prominent.
So Brian Houston comes to the US and tries to understand what was happening here and how to best approach the church and how to spread this good news in a better way. So he sees the business of church in the US and how they're doing it here, and he takes it back and transforms a local church that was steadily growing into this more fast paced business.
So, okay, if a church is a megachurch, are the people who are listening and showing up giving money because I'm trying to understand the business model here, Yeah.
For sure. So within the system of Hillsong and just in Christianity as a whole, the concept of tithing is very, very common, very used, I would say within ninety five percent of churches. And tithing is when they give about ten percent of their money of whatever they earned to the church so it can function to pay the pastor because often it's the only job they have, so that they can live to pay any bills that the building
may have, things like that. When you have around a million people giving this ten percent, that can add up to a lot. What also tends to happen is that within Hillsong they quickly plant this idea that the church doesn't have a lot of money, and so then we
need extra support. And so Hillsong had a group named Hillsong Partners, and you can become a partner if you're giving at least one dollar extra apart from what you're already giving, and this is often monthly so you get a lot of wealthy people giving extra money to be in the system of partners, and often within partners there's different levels of what it means. So if you're giving one dollar, you're in the lowest level. If you're giving
one hundred dollars, maybe you go up a level. If you're giving five thousand, you're probably in the highest level of what means and you have access to more information on what the finances are happening. So that's kind of where the cultiness kind of starts.
What does more money get you?
They would say that you could view more of where the money was being allocated, or they had more access to the pastors. Often within your local church, you can walk into the pastor's office after the service ask questions about their sermon or just in general about how things are going or needing support. Within Hillsong, there's often security around the pastors. After the service is over or even during you can't really get to them, and so it
can become difficult. But if you're a part of the partners because you're giving more money, you can have access to them and you can talk to them one on one and they'll be present. So Carl Lentz will come in and he was like the main campus pastor for all of the East Coast or your local pastor within the church. So people liked the exclusivity of how it felt for them to be a part of Hillsong Partners.
And it was really interesting to see that dynamic. Someone who was a grad student here in Boston who couldn't really afford much. It was hard to see all this money just being wasted on food that was being thrown away mainly within the Partners' meetings, or like them using this money to rent out a wine cellar because that's where they wanted to have their cool meeting so they can entice more people to give more money because they have this intimate meeting with Carl where he fake cries
and everyone gets emotional. So it's very interesting to see that dynamic there.
So I have a couple of things to say here.
When people talk to me about spaces that are supposed to be infused with God and spirituality, my personal meeting around that is that all are equal in that space, that in any healthy conception of a religion or a God, is that that's maybe the only time people could all be viewed as equal right, This sounds like you'll be paying for access. It's like Coachella, like if you spend more on your ticket, you can get closer to the people.
I don't know that God was thinking that religion was supposed to be like a music festival, which is what this sounds like. It's this purchasing of exclusivity which goes in the face of all that should be I think the core personally of a healthy religion. But this also takes me to a question, Miami that I struggle with because I'm not in this world. These people are tithing ten percent, not a small amount depending on what a person's making, especially at a time when the economy is
so tight whatever. Okay, so millions of dollars are coming in. We have all heard those stories of these high flying preachers having jets and rolls, royces and twenty five thousand dollars, watches and mansions. You're talking here about exclusive dinners in a wine cellar and all of that. These are people's hard earned dollars that they're giving to a church that they believe in. I'm asking this to you as a
person because you can't speak for everyone. You can only answer this for yourself as a person, how do you reconcile that as a member of a religious community?
Personally? It was as a child of someone who would take money to survive. My dad would receive money from the church. I saw it in a very different context when I was younger than from how I saw it at Hillsong. We didn't have a lot of money. We weren't very wealthy. My dad had to have a second job. All of my uncles did as well. It's not a business you go to to become rich. Makes sense within your local church, Yeah, the majority of the time within
Hillsong is very different. And because I had this other experience, it was very frustrating. But the way that Carl Lentz was so good at doing was to talk about, or more used the phrases of why should pastors have to live in poverty? Why can't I also have good things just because I'm a pastor, I have to live in poverty or I have to live in a certain way. And so then that kind of like switches the tables on people and they're like, oh, shoot, like I'm questioning
my pastor? How do I do this? So often as someone who was a volunteer I was not allowed to give water bottles to the volunteers who were working under me because those water bottles were specifically for the pastors. That was As a public health professional and as an advocate and a human rights advocate, I did not like that, and so I would just give them out, like water is a human right. I would get in trouble all the time, and I was like, I'll take the heat.
I don't care. When I started kind of noticing that the pastor wanted altoids packaged in a certain way, or wanted their water bottle to be opened before ended to them because he didn't want to use his hands to open it. All these like little things that were very childish, and we're very like you're treating me like your servant kind of thing. We're very difficult to see and navigate. It is very frustrating, though, and it's funny because you can flip the Bible to say many things the way
you want it. And often when I think of this of like people not being able to approach a pastor, I think of stories like the times when kids wanted to come say hi to Jesus and the disciples, which were kind of his security disciples, meaning a student or a follower, stopped them and were like, no, you can't access Jesus. And then Jesus got up and went over and was like, why are you stopping these kids from coming? Like,
let the children come to me. And they went on their way, and he spoke to the disciples after and said, don't do that, Like everyone can have access to me. You can't dictate who can or cannot, especially children. And so when I see systems like Hillsong who are having security around their pastors, that for me is like where's Jesus. You're not letting the children come to you for questions like how is that Christianity? Why is it that I'm able to give a water bottle or have a water bottle?
Why is it that you can wear supremes? But I'm having to like not know where my next meal was coming from. Well, I think I have many things to say about this.
What I'm hearing is entitlement.
Right, You've got all this money coming in, and the so called pastor the so called direct line to God as it were, is saying, well, why can't I be wealthy? Why can't I have the fancy clothing or shoe items. Why can't I have the expensive dinner? Why can't I have a nice lifestyle, to which the response would be that you shouldn't have anything other than the basics until your entire flock is covered. So hard is that to understand?
To me, that basic human idea. If you're doing this in the name of faith, it's not like this is a corporation, right, That's why the CEO's in business to make money. That's their singular motivation. So no one should
act surprise when the CEO does a money grab. But when a pastor rolls up and derives their power from some presumed connection to God, and then they exploit that power to take everything for themselves and then create a rationalization around that, that to me feels narcissistic because it shows no empathy to these people who are coming in good faith. Frankly, I think someone innocently they're giving their money to support an institution that matters to them, that
connects them to God. This person they've anointed as believing that it speaks for God. That person has no empathy for those people, is deeply entitled, is very grandiose, is incredibly hypocritical. That list is starting to add up into that uncomfortable space of this sort of narcissistic piece. Narcissism is a personality style is usually associated with arrogance, entitlement, variable empathy, admiration seeking, and has dynamics such as manipulation
and invalidation and taking advantage of or using other people. However, it also has different ways of showing up, and a type of narcissism we often don't explore is something I call self righteous narcissism and is a sort of rigid holy roller narcissism, a sort of self serving morality, using this morality to shame, judge, and invalidate other people, and wearing two masks of seeming love and acceptance if someone plays by the rules, and quick dismissal and rejection if
they do not. This self righteous narcissistic style shows up in religious communities all the time, and since rule following matters so much in these spaces, folks and entire organizations with this style can psychologically harm people who may be trying to bring their true selves to their religion but are told they aren't as worthy if they don't follow the arbitrary rules. It kind of really boils my blood because if a CEO is narcissistic, I actually don't care.
That's their job is to make the shareholder's profits. I cannot shop there. I certainly don't need to be the CEO's friend. But I don't feel like that's a manipulation. I don't feel that that's cruel. That person's probably going to do a better job than someone who's sort of sweet and agreeable. It's that person's job. But when you're talking about a church, and I really like that you use that fable, that parable of Jesus and the disciples.
It's interesting that in a way the disciples were in some ways kind of getting some juice from being close to Jesus, right, that was giving them some sort of.
Empower and entitlement.
And Jesus, though, was pulling out saying no, no, no, no, no, that's not okay.
So Jesus played it right. That's how it's supposed to be done.
Unfortunately, these many people that are co opting that which was considered to be healing and good have really actually basically it sounds like nothing more frankly to me than a money grab. We will be right back with this conversation.
Yeah for sure, Okay, So let me.
Step back a minute here, because I want to understand.
No, I mean, what drew you to Hillsong.
So when I moved to Boston, I had already left my family's church. I was coming for grad school here to study public health, so my master's in public health. I was very excited. I wanted something a little different. I was also looking for a church that was welcoming of all people, regardless of political background, regardless of how they grew up. Like I wanted a place where everyone
was welcome. And as I was searching for a church, I fell upon Hillsong And I remember as I was walking through the doors, I saw a sign that said welcome home. And when I read that, for me, it was oh wow, okay, Well, a home for me is where everyone can come in as they are, because a home is a safe space. A house is just a building, but a home is something you create. I want to be a part of the creation of this home. So yeah,
like this is awesome, Like welcome home. I walk a little more and then I see another sign that says you belong and I was like, oh, okay, so me, as a brown person, I belong here. There wasn't too much diversity, but there was a few black and brown people there, so I was like, Okay, we can bring in more, Like I'm more than happy to help create
this and diversify it. And it was very much geareded towards younger people because they had like lights and their production was very high quality and you can be a part of making it high quality, and they had all of these cool tools and conversations and sermons were focused on younger people. So for me it was really exciting. And Hillsong being a church that was known for their music. I had grown up hearing about Hillsong and the music
that Hillsong would release within their different bands. For me, it was really cool to now be a part of the church who was developing that music that I had heard about growing up. So it was a lot of that, a lot of finding a place where I could fit in in Boston, but also a place that I thought was racially diverse and that I thought was welcoming of everyone.
And you also believed not only were they going to be accepting of you as a brown person, but as a queer person.
Yes, at the time, I was still questioning. I was not openly questioning yet I started doing that a year into me attending Boston. But yeah, when I saw Welcome Home You Belong, I thought it meant everyone. I didn't do research on a church because for me, like that didn't have to be something I had to think about, like a church is a safe space, or that's how I grew up thinking, like any church I attend or i'm looking for is a safe space. So why do
I have to google this church? So I didn't really do the research into that.
I want to ask you a question, though. Okay, here's where I'm putting psychologists hat back on here. You said, I always thought of churches as safe spaces. But yet when you approached the pastor and that church you were met with your going to hell. They were cruel to you. They were manipulative to you. So where did that constructive church as safe come from? Because the church you had just left wasn't.
So when I would see the church at the time, I wouldn't identify the church I was attending as something like it wasn't a part of it. Because for me, a church like that was very fundamentalist. So to find a church that was more quote unquote welcoming a liberal was a safer place than what I had grown up in.
You wanted it to be okay. You're in a new city, church, God all mattered to you, and the symbols in the space welcome home, you belong. We use on this podcast a sort of frame of what happens in these kinds of manipulative relationships is we also find ourselves wanting it to be okay. So you were betrayed by one space you were. I mean, I think it's fair to say that anyone who has been devoted and is coming into their own and you're met with you're going to hell
kind of thing, that's a betrayal. And with that betrayal having happened, and now moving to a new city, you're going into this place. It's this one will be different. And that, to me is what happens to the vast majority of people. I mean, I think that that kind of hope is something that many survivors of all kinds of manipulative situations have. What were those early days of Hillsong like for you? After you walked in that door?
Yeah, so the early days were definitely there was so much you had to do in this quality of production that you had to put on that it took a lot. I was part of the host team at the time, and I remember I was one of the only brown people on the team, and so they would put me at the front door and they would be like, we want you to be the first person they see when they walk through the doors, and I'm like, okay, like
I see what you're doing. But internally I was also like great, Like I get to be a part of how people see this church and what it could become. And if I am here as a representation that this is a safe space for black and brown people, then yeah, I want to do that. So being a host was very tiring, and I would start going home and sometimes be exhausted, fall asleep, or just cry because I was like,
I don't know why I'm so tired. So I decided to switch over to another team called Events, and that's where I really started to see how the production was put on. From the run sheets that were done, from the word to word paragraphs of what pastors and anybody who was on stage had to say, the level of numbers that they had to count for people who were there, the note taking all of this data that was sent to New York to keep track of what was happening.
It was a group of like three or four of us having to do all of this work, and so it was it was quite tiring, but it was also really cool to see it for at the time from that perspective, I had grown up in a church where, you know, if there wasn't a drum player, and that day and it was just a guitar, Great, We're just gonna sing with the guitar at a whole song. That was like non acceptable. It was like, wait, why are we having to put on this production? Why does it have
to be this high thing? Why can't it just be church? It felt more like we were playing the game of church rather than putting on church. They would definitely pin volunteers against each other to not focus on how that pastors were treating us, because for events, we were being yelled at from the pastors for having gone over a few minutes, or because he had told us he wanted church to be an hour in thirteen minutes and we spent an hour and fifteen minutes. So we're being yelled
at from them. So then we turn our direction to the creative team, which is the team who is on stage doing the singing and doing the stage management. We turned to them and start yelling at them and be like, it's your fault. You're the one who did this. You're the one who caused us to be yelled at and
to get in trouble. They were like really pinning us against each other so that we wouldn't churn our face and see them and be like, wait, no, it's you that created the system and is causing us to do this. So they're really smart about it. It's really nasty when you look back and see how they did it.
What they did there is the team's being turned against each other and that you were then starting to sort of call each other out and sort of launch your wrath on the other teams. It's called triangulation, and it's how people in power remain in power. They create this chaos below, so people are not facing over to where leadership is setting up an unsustainable system and so everyone is sort of scrapping and scraping over these little things.
But the way the system was structured is wrong. I guess a question for me then becomes you're a volunteer, it's going you feel like you're a part of something. It seems like they're saying, we're inclusive, we want to get more racially diverse membership, all of the things that matter to you. But when did things start to change for you?
Yeah? So I started taking a gender and sexuality class in grad school, and I remember we were going around the class and we were all saying our sexual orientation and gender identity. And it got to me and I was like, I don't know, I'm straight. And then they're like, okay, what's your ender identity? And I was like I don't
know what that means. And they're like, okay, I guess you're sis gender and I was like sure, yeah, And then once it passed on to the next person, I was like, wait, No, that didn't feel right, that didn't sit right. And so all of these things that I had hid for so long started to come up again, and I started to learn about gender and sexuality and public health and gender firming care and what that looked like within public health. And so I started to have
a safe space where I can question within academia. And then I would turn and look at my faith and be like, wait, is this a safe space for me to be in? And so then I started asking questions slowly kind of approaching it, and so I would ask like, oh, I have a gay friend and they want to come to church, would they be able to tend this church? And they'd be like, yeah, everyone's welcome, like they can
come through the doors and come to our services. We would love to have them, And so be like, oh, okay, great, And then I started to ask more and be like, wait, would they be allowed to volunteer? And they'd be like, oh, well, it kind of depends on what position they're in. And so then that's where it started more of like, wait, what do you mean it depends on what position? And they'd be like, yeah, well, if it's like a host, maybe not. But if it's within like a background scene, yeah,
that would be great. We would love to have them. I was asking all of these during a meeting I was having with one of my leaders, and I remember I ended the meeting saying, well, I'm the gay friend and I'm trying to have a better understanding if if I am queer, because I'm questioning and I'm starting to come into this place, would it be a safe space for me? Like is what I'm doing? Okay? And the leader kind of stayed quiet and was like, Okay, well,
what you're doing is fine. You're in events, so you're not really at the front, and you're leading a connect group with someone else, So I think it's okay, Like I don't have an issue with it. And so I was like, okay, but if I were to be under someone else's leadership, would I have to ask them? Would I have to out myself to them again? Like is this going to be a constant thing I'm going to
have to be doing? And she was like, yeah, well it's a case by case basis, so yeah, I kind of stay quiet, and I was like, Okay, this is going to be a bigger issue than I thought, and so I started asking myself more and more questions of
what's Hillsong going to be that for me. I also decided to come out to my mom at the beginning of twenty nineteen, and the day I did it, my mom obviously didn't take it well because she was a part of this other church that was openly very homophobic and believed that gay people or and queer people were going to go to hell, and so that was what she said to me over the phone because that was the safest place I found for me to out and
come out to her. And so the next day I went to my leader's home and I told her like, hey, like, I came out to my mom last night, so I'm a bit tired. I haven't really slept. And so when I get there, I walk in. She's folding laundry and she sits down and I had told her over text like I don't really want to talk about this, I'm still processing. As I'm sitting down, she says, why did you feel the need to come out to your mom?
And I kind of just stare at her, and I'm like, well, like, it's a big part of my identity right now, and I want to be able to have her acceptance or at least have her know. And I don't want to be hiding anymore. I've been hiding my whole life. And she goes on to say, well, isn't identity elusive? And I was like, oh, well it can be, but like no, like, this is who you are. And then she's like, well, shouldn't your identity be centered in God? Like shouldn't you
identify as a child of God? First? And so then I look at her as a black woman and I tell her, wait, do you not identify as a black woman, Because when you're out on the street, people don't see you first as a child of God. They're going to see you as a black woman. That's just the reality of where we live. And she kind of gets quiet, and I was like, well, no, like I identify as a child of God first. And I'm like wow, Like, I wouldn't be able to do that, Like, my ethnic identity
is so big within me. It's a huge part of who I am, but that isn't bigger than this other thing that is my sexual orientation and my gender identity. So we kind of start having this debate back and forth, and I realized that she wasn't a safe person to go to. So I stopped the conversation that day. But the conversations kept happening as new things started to arise within the church, so I started to have more questions.
I started to be more vocal within social media. It got to the point one day where one of the pastors approached me and asked me to no longer post on social media because I was a leader in the church, and how could it be that I was posting that kind of thing if that's not what the church believed in. And I looked at him and was like, I'm sorry, sir, but no, you cannot tell me what I can or cannot say. This is not a cult, and if it is, then I'm going to leave right now. And so I
really set the boundary there. So we were constantly in debates. It was starting to become like very much back and forth with him and her of what it meant to identify as queer, and them constantly trying to convince me to identify as a child of God.
But you went to that first pastor, your pastor. It sounds like in confidence. So how did other people find out?
Yeah? I told her in confidence from the start. She ended up telling the rest of them, so she outed me to them. And I only found out towards the end when I was in meetings with one of the pastors. I was going to be assisting him with some like admin stuff, and he wanted to meet with me, so I was like sure. So we ended up going to his coffee shop. And whenever a pastor says that you're going to go to a coffee shop or meet up there,
it's often never a good thing. So we end up going to his coffee shop and he's like, who is Noami, tell me about you. So I tell him all about me. I don't mention the fact that I'm queer because I didn't feel the need to. I just told him about my family, like my religious background, like anything that really pertained to what I was going to be doing, and like I didn't want to talk about my queerness. And he kind of was not happy about that because he
was expecting me to say more. So at the end of the meeting, he's like, I want to mend for you, and so I was like, okay. So I look at him, this cis gender heterosexual, white man, and like, you want to mentor me a brown person who's questioning their identity, their gender identity, and it's clearly queer. Internally, I was like what the hell? But then externally I was like, okay, whatever, So I accepted it. The next meeting we come and he asked me, what is something that is holding you
back from giving it? You're all at Hillsong. So I start thinking of whatever bullshit answer to say, and I end up saying, well, Carl Lentz did talk about a bill that was passed in New York on abortion. And it's really frustrating because he's giving unfactual information to the congregation. So really that I'm as a public health professional, I cannot stand by that, and I believe that, regardless of your faith, people should be given every option available. He's like,
is there anything else? And I kind of like stay quiet, look down a little bit. And then he's like, it's the fact that you're queer, right, And I look up and I'm like, wait, I never told you, Like how did you find out? And he's like, oh, like I spoke to that leader that you told the first time. And I was like, oh, okay, I see what's going
on here. So that part of me started to get I was very frustrated that she had done that, and I started to connect the dots as to what had happened throughout my whole journey of me having this conversation with her. While I was having these conversations with her, I was having a mental health crisis, being in grad schools hard, my family not accepting me, my mom literally
condemning me again to hell. So I was reliving that past trauma having my church not know like if they were going to be welcoming of me, and then coming to that realization and once again that the place I
had chosen and I thought was safe wasn't safe. I ended up having to admit myself into a psychiatric hospital the first time while I was at Hillsong under the mentorship and support of this other leader who was being told what to do by this other pastor who wanted to mentor me, And so all the darts start connecting and I'm like, wow, Okay, I see what's happening then, and why she was telling me that instead of going to my therapist to read a devotional about waging war
against your brain, that anxiety was a war you needed to win, rather than something that could be maybe medicated if need be, if it's at that level, or that depression was just the devil bringing you down, instead of saying no, maybe there's something deeper happening, Maybe talk, therapy or medication could help. And I was very privileged to have had a pastor who was qualified, who knew what
to do in my life. She was my best friend's aunt, and when I was in the deepest part of my mental health crisis, my best friend from grad school got me on the phone with her. This pastor was a black, lesbian pastor in a city close to Boston, and that phone call was very different from what Hillsong had how
they had approached my mental health crisis. She quickly heard me crying and in the space of how I had been viewing my mental health and having suicide ideation, and she quickly said, Wow, it sounds like you're having a really hard time. Have you ever considered having a psychiatric evaluation? So she quickly understood her limitations as a religious leader and knew that it was important to then consult professional in that field to give me the support that I needed.
So I immediately saw the stark difference between her as someone who was qualified who knew how to approach mental health crisis, and someone who was not qualified and was told to have me read devotionals and pray the depression
away and wage war against my brain. So it was these two very stark realities of what was happening around me, and seeing that this other pastor who was affirming of me and was helping me through this crisis, went to go visit me in the hospital and give me spiritual guidance.
The other people at Hillsong never showed up, And when I came out of the hospital that following Sunday, I realized very quickly that they wanted me to go back to being this volunteer producing at the same level I had done before, not realizing that maybe my brain needed a little bit of time to settle back into reality. So all of these things were coming into realization, and I started to really look at it all and say, I don't think Hillsong is a good space, is a
safe space. I don't think Hillsong is a home.
No.
No.
And you know what unfortunate it is is that it's such a tragic parallel process for you. You were once again sort of betrayed in a religious space. You know, so this place you've gone to to be home, to belong, that they betrayed your confidence by the one pastor who you likely felt a sense of trust with because she
was a woman of color. I'm going to tell you, as a woman of color that when we look to someone based on their minoritized status and then we feel betrayed in that space, it hits harder because there was a presumption of trust there that does get sort of doubly violated. In essence, kind of what they were calling mentorship sounded like in doctrination, how can we turn you
into something different? And if you once again were being invalidated for who you were, and you'd had the experience like coming out to your mother, she was not happy about it. That's an invalidation. You had grown up with invalidation, you were experiencing it again.
In this space.
And there's even to me something noemi invalidating about knowing that you're being chosen to be the greeter at the front of the church for a form of tokenism. That is a form of invalidation because you're not being seen.
As a whole person.
So all of this piling up that you know, through whatever divine mercy there was, there was someone in your life who did see this. Because this much betrayal and this much invalidation, you better believe it's going to end up in a mental health crisis, especially when you're not calling it as such.
Right.
I really, as a psychologist, want to highlight the courage it required to check yourself into a psychiatric facility. Many, if not most people, even when they're in the throes of crisis for any number of reasons, will not do that. The stigma, the shame, the not knowing, and you did that. So there's a steely spine within you that's giving you resilience at these significant moments, because if those crises go unaddressed, Noemi,
the consequences can often be quite catastrophic. So you know, I think that that's an important message to get out there too, is that when it starts feeling that bad, is to go in there and get that help. So if you did end up leaving, you decided no, I don't want any part of this. You spoke out against Hillsong after you left. What happened once I left?
I realized that they were being purposely ambiguous in all ways of their policies, but more specifically with LGBTQ youth and LGBTQ people because they weren't being clear about who they were. The welcome home had terms and conditions, and so that for me brought in a lot of anger
and I started to post on social media. First, I reached out to the local pastor and was like, Wow, like, I'm really angered at the fact that I served under you for two years and yet no one in your church could give me your church's policy on LGBTQ people and like where we could serve and what you believe in? I asked for it so many times and no one could give me a clear answer somewhat until the end.
I had to pull it out of someone and for them to finally say, no, we won't marry the same sex couple and no we won't hire an openly queer person, Like I had to pull that out of someone, and so it was really angry me and I messaged him
that via Instagram. I DMed him and I was like, it's very like frustrating that I never had anyone even care to like reach out after I left to ask why I left, to even like do aftercare because I had seen so many people leave the church and for them to be like forgotten, nobody cared that they left, like they continued as if nothing had happened. And so
his response was very eye opening to me. He said, we loved you, and we asked people to give the same grace in return that they want to receive from the church. And I was like, wait, so it's transactional. He starts going on about like, yeah, you're this leader, like I thought they were working with you throughout this process of you navigating your queerness. And I was like, wait, I never even told you. Now you're outing yourself that
you knew and you never cared as well. And so that for me was another eye opening moment that I was like, Okay, this was all interconnected. And I also felt really off about the way he spoke to me because it was sounding very gaslighting, manipulative, disregard anything I had said, and putting it with we loved you and have grace for us. And for me, it was like, no, like that's not how things work. So I screenshoted those messages and I ended up posting it on social media.
My conversation will continue after this break.
Before I posted it, I said, this is not the way pastors should act. I'm going to share something very personal, and it's very sad to see that some leaders think that this is okay to talk to the people who worked under them and to their parishioners or people part of their congregation that believe that they could use whatever
language and gaslight and manipulate them. Within seconds of me posting it and I tagged him in it, he replied to me very mad, saying like, why are you using your social media to call people out or to talk to people like this, like this is so disrespectful, Like I would never use social media in that way. And I look at him and say, like, I tried to have a conversation with y'all, y'all didn't listen, So I'm gonna use any means necessary to get my voice out there.
And he didn't like that. And I quickly started to see all of these other leaders looking at my Instagram stories and checking everything, and it didn't end there, Like they were checking every day for like almost three weeks, going in, checking what I was posting, checking where I was at, and so that for me started to get a little scary. And at the same time, I was receiving people responding like yeah, I get them. Oh my god,
finally someone is saying something. But all of that was starting to get to me, and I started to get what we call on social media's trolls, people who create fake accounts to send you messages. So I was getting these troll messages that were very intense, and we're getting under my skin and we're like really starting to hurt. And I started seeing myself fall back into this mentality that I had gone in the same pattern that had happened back when I went to the psychiatric hospital the
first time. So because I was getting scared, because I noticed my mental health going down again, and I was exhausted of having to navigate this, I ended up admitting myself once again in twenty twenty, just a year later, in order to ensure that it was a safe thing and I prevent anything from going and becoming worse.
Your experience shows that a system that's this toxic, populated by toxic people, engaging with them, you will always get sick. So you know, to post and have that kind of a battle. Their purpose built for this kind of thing. They can go to battle and not feel anything that conflict. People who are very antagonistic and manipulative, they really thrive under that. But for somebody who's not built like that, especially in the era of the troll and all of that,
is that advocacy work often means making noise. But if you're making noise and speaking out against a toxic system or toxic people in that system, they will come for you, and if you're not built for that, you will get sick. My question then becomes faith has been a part of your life since the day you were born, and it has been some of the highest, brightest moments of your life and clearly some of the bleakest all together. How
have these experiences affected your relationship with your faith? Are you a part of a church?
Now? That's a good question, and I laugh because there really isn't one. Now. I don't attend a church. I find church triggering, meaning that if I walk in and I see a certain type of word or service or any like smoke, because they would put on smoke or certain lighting, it's a little triggering and I feel very uncomfortable and my body's like, get out, this isn't safe. So I don't regularly attend to church. I don't go.
I haven't gone. I attended church this past week because I am going to be studying theology at BU and so I decided to go. Yeah, thank you. I decided to go to chapel and it was a very affirming service and it was very liturgical, and I found peace in that and the fact that I knew what was happening, but I didn't believe what they were saying, but I could respect where they were coming from because I understood.
But yeah, personally, I don't believe the ways I used to. Now, more than anything, I've gotten more intrigued and curious about my indigenous identity. My grandparents on my dad's side were indigenous, and they converted to Christianity into that fundamentalist church, and they left behind everything that they were. And so for me, for someone to have been colonized and assimilated the way they were, I want to do the work of going back and learning who I am and who our people were.
We didn't survive colonization from Spain for us to go back into it. So I want to decolonize my faith and deconstruct it, and so I would view myself more as agnostic now. So if there is a God, or if there is something out there, I wouldn't view it as like this being or someone that uses he him pronouns, because I feel like it's beyond pronouns or beyond the binary. So it's something humans really can't comprehend because we can understand what we see. And so that for me is
more like I find divinity in nature. I find divinity in other people. If people are made in the image of God, then there is dis within us. So I find divinity within others as well in the good side of them.
Well, do you've really come a long way than in who you are in terms of your faith? And you go in there and you grapple with theology, which is obviously is very different than fundamentalism or evangelical kinds of approaches, but really this divinity that pervades everything, that's a huge departure. And after going through all of that, and you suffered,
you really really suffered. I do believe that coming back from a toxic relationship is a form of decolonization for everyone because it's really sort of a pushback on oppressive systems. But for you, it's much much more pointed than that. So I guess I'll put this out to you as a conjecture since you are studying theology, so let this be your exam question for the day. What is the healthy way to organize a religion?
As someone who's experienced and studied a bit of religion, and compared to religion, I don't know if there is a healthy way of doing organized religion because yeah, personally, I haven't had that experience, and I would hope for that church. And I'm going to use this as a very different perspective of church, church is a group of people,
is a community. So for me, a church is where the people in this community have their needs met, because that is what Jesus was looking to create, something that was liberating for all, where they could have heaven on earth. And so if there is a form of organized religion that is seeking to do that, that is providing for everyone in the community. Because back then they would all put into a pile of money and they would divide
it up. It was a form of like socialism and communism and all of that, but they were all having their needs met and that's who Jesus was like, that's what he was preaching. That was a form of liberation because they were living under an oppressive system, which is a Roman empire, and that's the story that he's telling about their liberation and how to find liberation of the mind within a system that's so oppressive and also fight
back against that system that was politically oppressing them. And so that for me, if there is a religious institution today that does that, that focuses on fulfilling people's needs completely and is doing a good job of advocating for them, then that is a healthy way to do it. I haven't found it. I don't know if I want to attend it anyway.
I mean, it's fantastic, and I guess if I were to say that there was a heaven on earth, I would say that for each individual person, that heaven on earth is that capacity to live fully into your authentic self, to face the world that way, and to have some spaces in your life where that true sense of you is seen and validated and loved and cherished simply for what it is. And that people have at least one person in their life that can do that and fully
possessed of who they are. I think what is so sort of heartbreaking about your story is that you were basically told, in this organization that brought you under a false pretense of belonging in home and religion and God and love and all of that, that you were basically told that the minute you stepped out of line, you were invalid, you were not good. And to me, that's just pure destruction, and that it happened in an organization that had got so much traction all around the world
and no accountability, no responsibility. Frankly, that makes me sick because that is the ultimate invalidation, to do it from a place where people again come in with such vulnerability, and to turn whatever are faith based relationships are with earth, with nature, with God, whatever it is, and to literally devolve that into a transaction. I am so sorry you went through that. I really, really am. You know, this week they are releasing another documentary series about Hillsong, where
we're going to hear more about what happened. Can I ask you how you feel about that.
I'm going to say something that Brian Houston would always say, there is more. He always said that there is more and there's always going to be more when it comes to things coming out. But I hope that the folks who were a part of it received that the care and support that they need after it, because it is not easy to do, as someone who's said it before, and I applaud them for doing so.
Yeah, amazing more, there is more. Well that right there, that's a lot to say. You've basically left the church. What about in the rest of your family, like you've made such a big arc of change. What about others that you've been called?
Yeah? So twenty twenty quarantine was a blessing in disguise. I had the privilege of quarantining with my family in Arizona,
and they finally got to see me for me. They realized that nothing had changed, that they just knew a little bit more about me with this other side of me coming out, and they got to ask questions and really wrestle with what the church had done, because by this point I had already left and I was speaking out while I was there, and so they had a very eye opening experience and decided to stop attending the church, more specifically my mom and my sisters. My brother still attends,
but my mom and my sisters had had enough. They didn't agree with the fact that it was not inclusive of everyone the ways that they had treated me. My mom, during one of the last conferences she went to, got on stage and said that the church needed to love queer people more go lo that yeah, the church ostracized her and she ended up leaving, and I was like, wow, yeah, now you felt a little bit of what it was like.
So but kudos to her. It took a big deal to do that, and so now she's super happy for me and my relationship is realizing that queer people can have healthy, thriving same sex relationships and so yeah, she loves my girlfriend and she loves my sister's girlfriend who also came out later.
I love this.
Yeah, so it became really cool. My brother's still navigating with understanding it all, having his daughters be also still within it, and you know, I wish him the best, and I set boundaries for my own safety. But yeah, my family is great and they're doing great well.
So what I really love about this story is that your family found its way back to their true selves. I mean, I think that that's it can sometimes be a real process to get to those unconditionally loving spaces. The real blessing is that you got there, and so you know, to me, the real divinity in the story is that a mother got to reconnect with her child and see the beauty of her. So I really thank you for that. That's a stunner. Thank you so much, Noami.
So here's my last question. If you were walking down the street again in Boston and saw those same signs on a church that said welcome home and you belong, what would you do.
I would probably run to a store and grab a poster board and a marker and say terms and conditions apply.
That's Mike drop, We're done. Noami, thank you.
And maybe that's what's so unfortunate, is that when we're talking about love and religion, terms and conditions need not apply. So I can't thank you enough. This was I've learned so much, and thank you for teaching me in such a clear way. There's words I've never understood. You really debunked though, So thank you. I'm so happy for you and your mom and your sisters, and I'm just so happy for all of that.
So thank you for giving me that kind of heart uplift too.
Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Noemi.
First, controlling and invalidating.
Systems, like some families or religious systems, do.
Not want people to bring their whole selves healthy systems do.
Any kind of invalidating relationship, whether with a person, family, or institution, requires you to check your identity and authenticity at the door, and this carries a psychological cost. It's not as simple as just giving in and then everything is fine. Noemi experienced several major mental health challenges, and any one who cannot show up as who they really are may experience despair, depression, anxiety, physical health issues, and
a sense of existential discomfort. In our next takeaway, when we are looking for something new, we need to make
sure we figure out what didn't work with the old. Noemi, as a young person, took the courageous step of stepping out of their childhood church and was searching for something better, and at that young age, was still coming into their own identity, and sadly, as they were working through all of that, fell into a system that once again would not support anyone's true self if it didn't work for
the church's brand. When a person is young, this is still being figured out, which is why there is a greater vulnerability to repeating cycles similar invalidation from a childhood religious community being repeated in Hillsong. As we get older and hopefully settle into our identities, we may get better at that discernment, but it does mean taking a minute
to do what Noemi actually described as deconstructing. In their case, it was about faith, but this deconstruction process is about staying in touch with ourselves to protect ourselves from repeating cycles. In this next takeaway, a theme we observe in invalidating systems of any kind, whether it is a family or institution, is often a discouraging of seeking out mental health services. In Noemi's case, they were discouraged and it became about being better at faith.
In other cases, families may tell people it's all in your head, or don't share your problem with strangers.
The more toxic and dysfunctional a system is, the more it is concerned with its own preservation and less concerned with the health and well being of the people within it. This is a dangerous setup because delaying mental health services can mean that a person's mental and physical health can deteriorate more precipitously. For this next takeaway, Noemi's story actually raised a form of gaslighting we don't talk enough about when people are actually doing or saying something that is
bad for you. In Noemi's case, having their confidential disclosure being shared with others in Hillsong or being told to actually view their identity in a different way that served the church and then telling you that it is good for you is a particularly insidious form of gas It's one thing to tell someone that there is something wrong with them, which is what we observe in classical gaslighting, but it's a whole different level when people are being
told that a pattern that is harming them is good for them. It takes gaslighting and multiplies the toxic fallout, and in our last takeaway, ultimately, Noemi's story is the story of how faith in something outside of them transforms into faith within themselves.
Many survivors of any kind of.
Toxic circumstances, including religious abuse, will experience tremendous despair. But when they get the support, guidance, and validation to learn to trust themselves, be themselves, honor themselves, and practice self compassion, these experiences can be a painful wake up call that
ultimately can bring people back to themselves. Noami ultimately is studying religion but not capitulating to the arbitrariness and self serving quality of an organized group, finding their own authentic path forward and in an unusual twist which we don't always see, actually also lit a path forward for family members. Surviving can evolve into thriving.
It just takes a minute.