The Dangers of Divorcing a Narcissist with Demetria Graves

these proceedings to last longer than the marriages themselves. In this eye opening conversation, she reveals her pre divorced checklist, debunks divorce myths and warrens of common mistakes. This is a must listen for anyone divorcing a narcissist, thinking of divorcing a narcissist, or even thinking about getting married period.

After all, the best way to learn how to make it work is from an attorney who spent her career handling the pitfalls and the landscape of narcissistic marriage and divorce. If you don't want to go through a grueling experience of getting out, pay attention to how you come in. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for

medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or

their employees. So, Dmitria, I am so happy to have you here. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule, intention for inviting me, dmit you there coming on the show is so important and so compelling. Is that in my own practice working with survivors of narcissistic abuse, the issue of divorces, you can imagine, is one of

the primary issues I'm dealing with. It's either people who are in unhealthy marriages and are thinking of dissolving the marriage, people who are just coming out making a decision do I don't tie, and then the people who are already in the divorce process. You practice in California, I do. And each state is different in terms of how they address family law. So the guidance you're going to hear today is from an attorney who does practice in California.

While some of this may generalize, it's absolutely critical that anyone listening today's episode seeks out counsel and whatever region that you live in, state, province, nation, whatever. So, Dimitria, if you were to put together a pre divorced checklist for someone who is about to commence a divorce from a narcissistic person, what are the things that you would recommend? So Number one that I tell my clients gloves are off, meaning the narcissistic partner is going to do whatever they can,

say whatever they want to win. So if they can use your mental health, they're going to do that. If they can disclose your intimate details of your relationship, they're going to do that. If there can align with your children, they're going to do that. So nothing that's going to be quote unquote fair and it's not going to be amicable. So you have to prepare for that that all gloves are off. Anything you shared with your partner, you might

hear it in court. So you have to be prepared that they're going to say whatever, do whatever because they want to win. Demitri, how do you prepare people for that, because that's a lot like what you just said is not that's not just some little thing off a to do list, right, that's actually almost changing a worldview. Right.

How do you prepare your clients at that? It's really hard to do because I've had clients that are attorneys, that are therapists that work in the court and had to deal with, oh my god, all of my personal information is out right, So we have to spend a lot of time understanding, Okay, this is going to happen, how are you going to cope? Because unfortunately, I'm licensed as an attorney, I'm not licensed as a therapist or to help others kind of deal with the emotional trappings

of their divorce. So I always recommend, especially with narcissistic abusers, that you have someone a coach, a therapist, or someone that can help you through your divorce, especially during those times when you're reading the intimate details of your life and intimate details that you thought would only be shared with your partner and it's being used against you. So the first step of this predivorced checklist is like, be prepared that the gloves are coming off. The gloves are off,

are off, not coming off. Okay, what would you say, is are some of the other items on this predivorce checklist your finances? The narcissistic divorce will cost three to four times then the average divorce. I've had clients that were married five years or less spend one hundred thousand dollars on a divorce and counting, that's twenty thousand dollars a year for the marriage. Put that in an investment,

you got a better yield on that. Right. It is very expensive because the narcissistic partner wants to win, so they're going to file every motion, They're going to do all the things to win. So you can have a five year marriage but spend six years in your divorce. I have so many other questions on that. I'm gonna keep going on your checklist, and I'm gonna go back and ask my questions. What else would you put on

this checklist? You have to be careful if you're residing in the residence at the time of your divorce, right because then a lot of narcissists know how to bait you to start making the case for the divorce. And in California, a restraining order is tied to who gets custody. So I've seen where a narcissist partner will try to get the other partner to hit them or to have these verbal disputes with them to attempt to get a restraining order, because if there's a restraining order, then the

partner has to leave, not the abuser. Oh, I see. So you're talking about situations where people are starting the divorce process but they're still both occupying the marital residence, right, which is not uncommon in California. It's because it costs a million dollars the limb. I can tell you as a psychologist where I have worked with couples where there's a narcissistic abuse a situation and they don't both leave the residence. I think that the psychological harm is ten

times worse. Right, And a lot of people still believe, even though they've experienced the abuse, that there's no way they will do that to me. There's no way they would kick me out of the residence. And I'm here to tell you they do and they will because it's all about winning. And then I think it's very important, in addition to having a therapist, to have a support system. Right,

everyone won't understand what you're going through. But again, your attorney is only equipped to deal with the business of your divorce. Despite what we tell you, we are not equipped to deal with the emotional aspects of what you're going through. And quite honestly, you don't want to pay us to deal with the emotional that for a fact.

That's just the practical check the checklist, right. The legal part of this is you have to be prepared that narcissists tend to hire narcissistic attorneys, Okay, talk more about that. They choose people that will harass you and your attorney, that write letters, emails seven pages, ten pages, can be every day or every other day, extremely condescending and make you feel like, oh wow, did that happen or did I say that? Or is this really happening? And so

that is something to prepare for. And if I had to learn myself how to disengage, how to maneuver a narcissistic attorney, that was a new phenomenon for me. But it is very, very real and it is very dangerous. Okay, So I'm gonna ask you a sort of a procedural question, since they probably don't have all sit on one website, narcissistic attorneys for family law, Like, there's not one place you can find these people. How do they find them? Did they just interview them and say, oh, you seem

like a jerk, I'm hiring you? Or is a reputation? I think it's like attracts like right, yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Tend to go to the people who you're most familiar with and who feels good to you. It feels gad, you're right. So if you're a narcissistic and you go to someone and they say I'm not doing that or I don't believe in that, or no, we're not going to do that, you're not going to go with that person because you want to win and you want to control the show. So if you can't do that that,

you're not going to select that attorney. Okay, I got that that. Let's say there's two people in a divorce and the narcissistic person picks up the phone and inquires about retaining five or six top divorce attorneys. Right are those people then? Now? Yet, Well, it depends on how much information is shared. If you just call and make an appointment, then no, you didn't share anything that was

important to the case. If you call and pay a retainer fee to speak to the attorney, and you speak for an hour on your case, then it's likely that that attorney can be disqualified. And if you pay a bigger retainer, yes, then the attorney you'll probably be disqualified. Is that a thing that ever happens? That a person who actually is not going to retain X or Y attorney but wants them not to be retainable as it were, by the let's call them the non narcissistant partner the

other person. Have you seen that happen? Yes, especially in small cities because you know, you know who the quote unquote top attorneys are. So if I disqualify all, let's say ten attorneys, you have to start going out to different places to people that are less experienced in those cities. So that's yes, it is a thing. Okay, all right? Anything else on this checklist? Oh? Yes, most definitely. And we talked about the cost. It's going to take probably

double the time is well, there are many cases. There's two I have right now, both married less than five years, and their divorces are set to go beyond the time they were married. And so my clients get frustrated and Dmitria, can we just offer them X amount of dollars to go away? But you know, like I know, it's not about the money. It's about the control. It's about the grandstanding in court and wherever else. So a lot of times they don't want the money. They want to keep

trying to ruin financially and otherwise the other party. It's about the game, right, right, I mean, that's really what it is. They'll game the system, draw it out, expensive appeals, delay on discovery, providing documents and all of that. But then one day they find their new person that they want to marry. Ever, oh so quickly they split up on paper. They push it, we gotta we gotta hurry up. We got hurry up, we gotta her. Aren't you the person who took four months to come up with one years?

Four years? Right? And so it's really what it is. It's like you said, it's they have to be in control of the whole process. It's not necessarily that they draw it out. Sometimes they really try to rush it right so quickly that the other person can't even get their feet under them because they want to quickly get Usually it's remarried in my experience, and that takes me

to the idea of bifurcation. Yes, right and so, and bifurcation to me has always code for the narcissistic person wants to get married right right after they've made this

other persons like miserable for three years. And then if you could just explain for our listeners what bifurcation is so they understand what that con that's just a fancy way of saying that we're going to get divorced on paper and we're going to handle the issues of our divorce later, meaning we're going to handle custody and vegetation, division of assets, and debts. We're going to save that

for a later date. And you know that always works out. Really, so when when the bifurcation is done, it's signed, those people are then legally single. They can go enter into the contract of the marriage is done, even though all the other stuff's going on. That's correct, Yeah, because when I've seen that happen, it was a rush for them to get into their new and new relationship, new marriage, big white wedding, the whole nine yards and there's this

whole big mess. It's like people are coming over for dinner and you throw all the stuff in the closet, like you know, the closet still all right, So let's keep checklisting. What else do you have? Your attorney? You have to pick an attorney that is aware of what's going on or is stern enough to stand up to

the narcissistic attorney, because they will be condescending. They will drive you crazy, and you have to learn how to draw the line because your client is kind of watching you as well, so you want to be sure that you're not engaging in that. That is something I had to learn because it is so easy when you're constantly attacked to want to attack back. But that's exactly what

they want. How did you get good at this? Because I don't imagine that there's a law school class called how to practice family Law against a narcissistic opposing counsel. It was trial by fire because I found myself, you know, typing away my email. They will type email, I will type an email, and I said, what am I doing? I'm costing my client a lot of money And this is exactly what they want you to do, is getting

trapped with whatever their issues are. But when I started saying okay, thank you, I have your email, Thank you very much. It stopped interesting. It was there one case and you realize that you almost had to sort of take a very different tack going forward because you learned so much about narcissism and narcissistic abuse in one case. Yes, it was a case that is still going, but it was still every day. As you know, miss Graves, I'm

what we call a certified family law specialist. So she would always say, well, as a certified family law specialist, you should know X y Z. So it was constant, jab very passive aggressive. So I had to get to the point where I say, well, what is more important fighting with this person are getting our client to the finish line. It is not easy. I will not sit here now you it is easy. It is not, especially

with my personality. I want to fight back. But yeah, I had to be the bigger person and it's better for my client. But it's challenging. You're having to do what I tell clients to do with narcissists all the time, which is don't engage, right, that's it. Don't engage. If people don't like that though, like this person is talking nonsense about me, like and I said, I understand that.

And in your case, it's even more interesting because of your fudiciary responsibility that you do have to protect your client financial You're not just supposed to sort of run the meter, you know, constantly, because if you did answer all of those emails, it would be any dry. But not only that, our clients are watching us, right, So if I'm getting upset and I'm getting emotional, then my

client's going to get upset and emotional. So it's not easy, and a lot of times I spend time with my client because sometimes they want to know, well, why are we fighting back and should we be doing this? And I have to have the conversation. No, the more we engage age, the more it's going to cost. And it's not kidding us anywhere. What Dimitria learned early in her career is a classic tactic that works with any narcissist

in any scenario. It's called gray rocking. Essentially, acting like a boring gray rock when interacting, you respond with brief, disengaged answers. In time, the narcissist realizes that you're not going to engage, and then they will back off. Did you know about narcissism? Before you became a family law attorney and before you started practicing independently, No, you did not, So this is where you learned it. In doing it, A lot of times you're like, well, is this narcissism

or is this person just controlling? So you do have to go and do your own research, and you do have to go and start studying and learning. And I think that's what a lot of other attorneys do that haven't had this experience, and some judges right, because we do use narcissism a lot. Now it's more discussed than before. Yeah, and if you don't enlighten yourself, it's hard to really take serious and know the signs and know how to

engage in the process. One thing I'd say to that, though, Dmitria, is that it's almost less important to get the narcissism part right. It's not your job to be a personality

assessment expert, right, right. But you know, it would be very rare to have someone who was harmfully controlling, but then it was also really empathic and nice, right, Like those things don't tend to co locate that that very harmfully controlling person might also be coercive, is very likely to be unempathic, it's very likely to be entitled, you know, is very likely to be validation seeking, and on and

on and on. So this stuff kind of hangs together, right, and that hanging togetherness means it's the one thing I've always had a concern about is whether attorneys or even family court judges are getting too lost in the weeds of all is this a narcissist? Forget it, Let's write down the patterns that are concerning when they're done. If I were to look at the list, I'm like, probably, you know, but I think that it's going to be very rare for there to be a friendly, controlling person,

right right. So I think that that's the other thing to almost lift that pressure off of all attorneys to say, you have to be able to make that call. But what you're looking for is consistency, right right. This is not just someone whose heart is broken and on the first day is saying like, darn you, you're not going to do this to me. And then they're like, all right, she's not into me anymore. I just gotta you know,

all right, and you know what I'm saying. There could be that initial moment, but that's not what we're talking about. I was talking about things that are going on for years and years and years, and again it feels like they've taken a system and turned it into a game. Right, keep giving me that checklist if we hit it all its or anything else you want to add to that.

The children aspect, Okay, that's the biggest one, right, attempt to align the children with their agenda, and what they tend to do is buy toys, by iPhones, by PlayStations and cry. I've seen the crying at and how can mom do this to us? Mom is breaking up, breaking up our family. We're going to have to move. Mom's taking away your house and children. That is very, very hard because children do not want to be in the middle. If you're buying them all these toys and constantly talking

bad about the other parents, it's very confusing. Do you then prepare them and say this is going to be yes, everything I'm talking to you about. We sit and have

these conversations. And so the intake process with someone that is experiencing narcissistic abuse is way longer than any other process because it's way more factors to consider, and I think it's important you have to look at the practical side of things and the legal side of things, because I'm not there with you when you when you're at home or when you're getting your finances together and all these other things that are extremely important, but also the

legal aspects and making sure you hire the right attorney for the situation that's going to deal with all of these aspects. And then the last thing on my checklist is over litigation. The case is going to be overly litigated. I have a case right now. We're in court at least once a month. I get two to three different motions. A lot of times I don't even know what the motion is and we're in front of the court, and what's shifting in this particular case. I think the court

is on to the narcissistic partner. And so when that happens and we know, things start to shift, but it took us three years to get there. And what happens in family court also, judges change a lot, So a judge can be onto the narcissistic partner, but then they leave, and so we're starting all over. And listen, what I've been told by clients, and not just in California, is that it was luck like if you got the judge who understood narcissism, there was going to be a more

reason judgment. But if you got a judge who didn't get narcissism, the judgment almost felt sadistic. Even though it might have literally followed the family law code, it followed it to the tea. There was absolutely no recognition of the game that was being played in their courtroom. The overly litigated pieces from my psychologists chair and these narcissistic divorces. Is it's not just the cost, it's not just a headache.

It's actually the trauma. Yes, because I find that my clients will say, I'm having nightmares, I can't sit still, i am constantly ruminating, I am not in my life. My body is falling apart. I'm afraid to look at my inbox. Yes, and so those sorts of things, the phone pings, they jump, phone rings, they jump the email to the point where some folks were saying I was not being good about checking my email, running into some

issues at work because it was that stressful. And it's not just about the overlitigation, as like now I have to show up to court again. It's a twenty four seven issue that does tremendous harm to people who are going through these divorce processes. You have this checklist, it's great. I would say the biggest takeaway from your list to me is you have to shift your expectations. Yes, right, yes,

and so that's a big one. Yes. And you keep coming to this point because it seems like what a person needs is a really informed guide through this process. I have often told any client who comes to me going through a narcissistic divorce, I said, you have to retain an attorney. You are not doing this online right, This is not going to be simple. How do you recommend that a person choose an attorney if they're going through a narcissistic divorce. I think it's important to have

your own checklist for your attorney. You have you worked with any cases that had a narcissistic person on any side? What is your approach to the dissolution? And if they're over talking you or not addressing the issues, they probably do not have the experience. Are they say things like oh, I don't know about if I don't believe in narcissism and that sort of thing, it is not the attorney for you. Or if it's someone that's a little more passive,

you know, a little more kumbaya. It's not going to work. It's not going to work for you, and then you do have to follow your intuition. A lot of times we have a bad habit of not listening to our intuition, especially in situations like that. I think that's just as important as the attorney checklist. I'm so glad you brought that up because I cannot tell you, Demitria, the number of people who when they were meeting with attorneys and they'd say, listen, am I soon to be access narcissistic.

I'm really worried about how this is going to unfold. And we're told by the attorney everybody says their ax is narcissistic ye, which to me is actually a version of gaslighting clients. Right, it's completely minimizing their experience, and it's dangerous because what that does so that client is saying, oh, I guess you're right, everyone going through divorce since that person was just rotten and that's why they're leaving. And so maybe none of this is even you know, maybe

that's the wrong word, and you're right. They could get into that wrong attorney and I'm so glad you as an attorney or saying this if they are not listening to what you're saying. I've heard this dozens and dozens of times. The worst hardest cases are the folks who come to me who are already four to six months into the divorce process. They're shredded and they're stuck with this attorney. And a lot of times I almost say people can get trauma bonded to their divorce attorneys just

they were trauma bonded in that relationship. They're working really hard, they are trying for me. We're this far down the path. Justify, justify, justify, which is what happened in the relationship. And I'll say, this person is acting in your service. And I understand you don't want to throw more money at this problem with a new attorney, but this could end up going really badly. And what are the biggest mistakes people make when they come in they start the process of a

narcissistic divorce that you've seen. They engage from the get go. They're in the house, they're fighting, they're fighting in front of the children. They engage from the start, and that really sets them behind the eight ball because the narcissistic abusers already planning what they're going to do in divorce. They're probably recording you. They probably have your on camera doing things that you're not supposed to do. That's the number one thing. Oh I'm not I have worked with clients.

I mean, it just becomes the war of the cameras and the recording devices. And I understand it like from the position of the non narcissistic person. They've said sometimes these cameras have been a game changer because I've actually taken the footage and showed it to my attorney and said, this is what we're dealing with. But on the same breath, I've had to tell non narcissistic folks going through divorce, you might need to hire someone to sweep this house.

Probably fifty percent of the time they found something. My conversation with Demetria will continue after this break. I'm sure they have. The other mistake I've seen is not having a plan. These types of cases require a plan. How are we going to address this case? Are we going to allow the other person to file first, which I say yes, because it gives them the illusion that they're in control and they get to set the stage. So

you need a plan for these cases. It's not like the typical divorce where Okay, you file, I file, we go about our happy way. You need a plan, okay. So basically the mistake is coming in without a plan, right, continuing to engage right, and then having the wrong attorney.

I would love to share with you what I have seen what I thought were mistakes, but I'm not an attorney, okay, okay, and I'd love to hear what your take is on some of these Some of the mistakes I've seen is people having a very unrealistic view of what's going to happen in the family court system. The biggest being, well, people are going to see that I'm I'm a really devoted parent and they're sort of terrible and mean, and if I show them all the mean emails, well, they're

not going to give them any custody. Right, wrong, so wrong? Right. Remember working once years ago with a family, and this was like one of those really happy families too, like everyone's loving each other and getting along, and the parents had been married like a million years and everyone was happy. Daughters going through a narcissistic divorce and the family's like, well, they're going to see he's terrible and he's had affairs

and he screams at the children. They're going to give you all the custody of the kids, and we're going to help you, and we're going to move next door to you. And they had it all figured out until the process began and he started fighting for fifty percent custody. Would you know, of course he got it because yelling at your wife or having an affair are not in most states of grounds, not certainly not in California to

not have custody. This family was shattered. They said, we had no idea, so they literally didn't know how the system works, right, And is that would you say that that's a mistake. I think that's not having an adequate conversation with your lawyers, because your lawyers should tell you. In California, there is a really big push to half fifty fifty curry. And then on top of that, with a lot of attorneys and a lot of judges not being aware of narcissism, they're not looking into it that way.

They're saying, how far do you live from each other? Are the kids? Okayft fifty custody? Right? So there has to be very detailed conversations about the topics that are most important to you, so you do know what to expect. And then you have to stay clear of attorneys that lie to you. If they tell you we're going to give you everything you want, you want percent custody, you got it, run because it's not realistic. So glad you said that to you. Which is that idea that an

attorney may promise you the moon and stars. Oh, this case, I'm easily going to get you eighty percent, no problem. I've heard people say that and it was none of it was true. And what then, Well, your attorney should be telling you the pros and cons of your case, right, You don't want you should not want to hear all the good things. You should not want to hear I'm gonna win the moon and the stars. You want someone that tells you these are the pros of your case,

these are the cons. This is where I think we're going to have problems. Yep, yep, yep. And but it is a it is such an emotional time that I also think what's challenging as people can't really hear what's being said. Right, that's a big one too. Honestly, when they're coming in your office, you know there's this whoshing sound in their ears and they're probably hearing about half

of what you're saying. So things in writing and all of that would make a huge, huge That brings me back to my original point that we are here to help you with the business of your divorce. So the more you can have support outside of what we do, the better you can potentially hear what we're saying. So let's talk about mediation, okay, because this is one that comes up all the time. Mediation is put out there as a what's considered maybe a more civil and less

costly approach. Is mediation ever a realistic option for people who are going through a divorce with the narcissistic person. I think it's only a choice when they have new supply. Supply or narcissistic supply is the validation that the narcissistic person wants and needs. This can be praise, attention, a sense of power, control, and domination like they might feel

if they are commandeering a divorce. When narcissistic people have enough supply, we see the charm, charisma, swagger, and arrogance. These relationships are notoriously one sided, with the narcissist needing supply and the rest of us giving it. So if they're trying to get out of the relationship fast and they really want out and they're ready to give you what you want because they're focused on something else, then

it might work. Otherwise it doesn't because it's a direct contradiction to who on our a person is right, because they know everything. So if you know everything, you can't hear the mediator. You can't hear what they're trying to tell you. You can't hear them, and they want to win, and mediation is not about winning, it's about compromising. And so if they haven't moved on and they're still kind of focused on this process, it's probably not a great idea.

I found your example really interesting, Demitria. If your narcissistic person has already found new supply, you know that they found a new person to validate invariably in the divorces that they've met someone new, right, which again, narcissistic people they're again because they don't go deep with anyone, they're able to replace you with someone new and very quickly. If they didn't already while you were still married, right,

So there they have their new supply. That's fascinating to me is that you found that in some of those cases, the persons found their new supply, they're feeling in a rush to get engaged and to get married. That that might be a point if that narcissistic person, though, is sort of feeling such a pressure that they just want to get you gone and meiation could potentially, but you better hope they don't break up with the supply because then the focus is back on you and we're right

back to where we started. So now we get to this interesting place of the language. People use words like narcissism and gas lighting. Again, I've been told this by my clients. Will say, when you say these words in the courtroom, you're sometimes viewed as the problem. Yes, can you talk to ze Okay, can you talk to us about that? Yes? Because I think it's so I don't want to say overly used in our society, but I think it's a new concept. We're learning more about it,

and some people don't want to be bothered. And so most judges have twenty to thirty cases on their calendar. And so if you go off script and start talking about things that they're not familiar with. Then you, of course are the crazy one and maybe we should look at you, or maybe you're the narcissist because you keep bringing it up. Courts don't want to hear it, so you have to be very careful with the language you use.

Do you coach clients who are going through narcissistic divorces on that saying we're not I get that your X is we're soon to be X is a narcissist, But I get that they're gaslighting. I get all that we're not saying these works. Do you prepare them to find different ways to talk about this stuff in front of a judge, talk about the issue at hand. This person did not do the exchange at this time. I am concerned because of x y Z Dmitria. I want to understand when a person has you have a client, they

have a narcissistic X who has a narcissistic attorney. Are there any legal guardrails in place to stop this process from becoming full on ongoing harassment? Yes and no. Right so, there are codes in the family Code that can sanction a party for overlitigating. There's even codes now to sanction the attorney, but doesn't happen in practice? Not really interesting. Okay, there might be a slap on a risk a warning here,

but not anything significant. So that means what I'm hearing is that it is conceivable some this entire process can be commandeered by someone if they have the attorney who's willing to do it, for them to turn into a place of harassment. For years, I've had a case for almost five years. They've filed over ninety motions, ninety to what end? Like those? How different can each of these? So where my client and I are just like here

we go, Wow, what ends? Is there a point where a person who holds some form of authority through the stage or the courts or the county or whatever, can finally say, clocks, time's up. We've run out. Is that a thing? Well, we eventually get to a trial, and that would eventually end it. But we have to get to the trial. Oh so the trial is sort of the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence. But my understanding is it does take a long time. A

long time. Is that because all of this other stuff has to happen first, or is it because the courts are backed up? Or both. It's both okay, But a lot of times we have to do discovery. You know, that's a way to extend the case. Oh I didn't get this, Oh I need to do another deposition. Oh I need these documents. And for our listeners, you want to interrupt you, but I just as we're using this

for a discovery. I know it, you know it. But my understanding of what discovery is is sort of the providing all of the appropriate documentation of anything that's needed to be able to get what's need so that decisions can be made in the case I write about that, right, So it could be tax documents, it could be finantial bank statements, anything deeds of even could be medical records

related to children. But then when you're in this process, discovery is all your text messages to my client for the last five years, all your text messages to your mother for the last five years. So it's another form of harassment. Yeah, because it doesn't solve the case. Is there ever an authority that says no, you're not getting

the text messages to the mother. That's not a thing like no, no, no. So the people can just sort of ask for anything that they want and because they can make up any reason why they need the messages to your mom, right, you told your mom you were going to give her the house, so that becomes a way to try to obtain text messages. I see, I see what I tell clients who, especially when I get them in the beginnings, I say to them, in about six months, you're going to start regretting that you filed

for divorce. You're going to think you've made the biggest mistake of your life. And I want you to note that is coming because of what this process is. To the degree I can give them some psycho education that they are going to ask for things that are you can't imagine. This is going to become your second full time job pulling all this documentation, getting all the stuff together. You are going to feel trauma to tell I like, literally,

this is what's about to come. So the way we've been talking about things, Dmitri, we have definitely been talking about folks who have money. What do you advise to a person who is about to approach a divorce. They do not have resources. Maybe they're renting an apartment, but it's the stuff with custody and child support, spiles or whatever. How do you advise people in those situations where it may very well be contentious around things like custody, but

they simply don't have financial resources. The beauty of La County at least is there are a lot of self help sinners that will assist with the documents. There are a lot of organizations that will also give you an attorney if you meet their criteria, so you might have to do a little legwork and search out who can

help you where you can get the documentation. A lot of the court's website has all of the information you need, and they try to do a really good job of outlining what you need to do, step by step, how to file the documents. There are also pro bono attorneys that take on some of these cases free of charge, but we all know that that's not a lot because you know, attorneys cost money. But most attorneys will provide

a free consultation. Okay, so do not go into court without at least talking to someone to at least getting some of the tools. They might not give you everything, but getting some understanding of what to expect in court, how it's going to happen, how you should present your evidence. At least try to have a conversation, so you're not going in blind and not knowing what to expect. Ask the attorney, hey, do you know this judge? What can I expect? What should I say? How should I address?

Should I address the other party? At least you have some framework of what to expect, even if you can't afford representation. Okay. So however, it's got to be challenging in absolutely. What about other issues, like even around immigration status or anything like that, which you can leave a person feeling like they're at peril? How does that work?

Immigration status is not presented in family courts, Okay, it is not to know an issue that the court will consider, and courts actually get a little irritated when people try to bring that up because it's not part of the family law ex experience. Okay, that's good to know. And then most courts also have interpreters as well, So I would consider bringing your own if you think the court's going to be short staff or if they don't have your particular translator. But most of the times they do

have interpreters available at the court. There are workarounds, but it's going to be harder. I mean, I think that there's no sugarcoatingness is if a person is going is under resourced going through this experience. Right again, they're so psychologically racked that working their way through, even through these low cost resources just feels challenge you overwhelming, It's really challenging. What about when you have one partner who has very

few resources, but the other partner is more resourced. Right, so they have a job, they make the money, they're financially controlling. The financially control all the money. What about those situations that party can go in and ask that the narcissistic partner pay for their attorney fees. Now, that's going to probably come with a lot of I mean they can, you can ask for anything you want a lot of challenges. Yeah, but that is the standard in family law. If one party has the ability to pay,

they will be on the hook for fee. Well, now, will you actually get it? Is the question the court can order it. Will you get it? Is an issue. I have also seen where the non abusing party loses their attorney because the narcissistic party is not paying the fees. And so a lot of times the non abusing party is left defending themselves because they can't afford or the other side is not providing the appropriate fees. Okay, So and I've seen that happen too. So you raised something

though that I don't I want to ask about. Okay, I've seen this one happen over and over and over again. Which is this person, narcissistic person making tons of money bringing it in living large. Now this process starts and lost my job, yes, okay, or I close my business. Close business is a big one, right close my business? Lost my job, So now this starts this entire game around support payments and all of that. Can you talk

a little bit about those scenarios in the narcissistic divorce. Well, thankfully, if they are employed, we can do wage garnishments and that sort of thing to make sure that, you know, support is paid. But it is a challenge if that person is self employed, there's nothing to attach to, and so then the non narcissistic party is trying to survive. So then this process becomes less important because I don't have money. How am I going to take care of

the children? How am I going to live? And so now they're off their game, while the narcissistic partners going on their game plans this sort of sick and twisted sort of sense of pride of like, look, I stuck it to this person I want and may still have resources and whatnot that they can access because all they did was step away, like you said, from a self

employment kind of a setup. And that's why all we try to talk to clients throughout the process about the practicality of everything, because of course I do this every day, right, so this is my job, this is what I do. But how are you going to live? What is the plan if he takes everything away? What are we doing? Because you're not going to want to do this process if you don't have anywhere to go at night. Yes, so that's extremely important to me. Yes, yes, yes, Okay.

What does community property really mean? Community property really means that all the property and the debt for that matter, that we accrue during the marriage belongs to the both of us. Okay, So if we buy property, regardless of whose name it's in, are assumed to be community property. Okay. Cars, cars, furniture, furniture, everything, everything, everything, And it doesn't matter if you bought it for your bank account or my bank account, or your salary or

my salary. Okay, I'm going to ask you a funny, tricky, strange question. So I've worked with more than a few people or with narcissistic cheaters. Oh okay, And so the narcissistic cheater, he'd buy an expensive item, a watch, a piece of jewelry for the other person, Okay, special friend, that thing now belongs to someone else. But presumably these joint assets were used to buy a fifty thousand dollars gift. Right,

how does that play out in a divorce? It really depends on the station in life, right, because if fifty thousand is really like five hundred, it's probably not going to be a thing a thing. But a fifty thousand is twice your salary for the month or whatever it is, it's going to be a thing, and you might have to give that back to the community. So, in other words, that person gone, but that fifty thousand may have to come back in. It's really it depends kind of scenario.

I know of a circumstance where a person found a receipt for expensive pieces that equaled about fifty thousand. They weren't hers, right, and so then she knew that this

was purchased for something that's definitely a divorce issue. Do you ever advise a person in a divorce with a narcissist where there's going to be all this twoing and frowing that if they can find a number that works for them that would be less than the fifty percent that they're entitled to, might even be thirty percent, but they can live with the number, take it and go, even though it's not what the law might have awarded them all the time, all the time. Interested, what do

you talk more about that? Yes? What is it worth to you? What is your mental health work to you? What is your piece work to you? What is your freedom work to you? And some people sometimes I have to, you know, talk them back up. Some people say I don't want anything. I'll walk away from all the houses, all the stuff. I just want to go. Let's talk about infidelity, Okay, okay, narcissistic infidelity that because the fact is, not all relationships where there's infidelity end up in divorce,

right the In fact, a lot don't. Don't. Narcissistic infidelity seems to have a little bit of a flare to it. It's either repeat did yes, it's in your face their person's gas slighted about it, whatever, it is when you and and they've already if you're married to or a narcissistic person, they've already been abusing the heck out of you anyway, so treating you terribly, and then there's this

whole other thing happening. And so in your experience when infidelity is a driver of that divorce, do those divorces have a different feel to you from the perspective of you representing the non narcissistic person. Right, They're very dramatic from the start. But again we're managing expectations because unfortunately in California we have a no faught state. So infidelity is important to the person that it happened to ye, but it's not important in the context of the divorce.

So I'm having to say, yes, let's talk about it. I want to hear about it because it's important to you. But unfortunately, when we go onto court, judge doesn't want to hear about it. That must be a big part again about the expectations, and I think that's a shocker for people who think, like it's isn't that don't you get like points for that now? And then some people get mad at me because I'm honest right. Everyone doesn't

appreciate the honesty. I've had people not hire me, go hire someone that told them what they wanted to hear, and then come back because the honesty is important. I'm not going to tell you, Yes, go tell the court all the times he cheated on you, because the court just doesn't want to hear about it. Interesting. Have you

ever represented the narcissist? Yes, okay, talk about this. I think that was before I really understood what was going on, and when I was a lot younger in my career, where the money meant something more to me than my reputation, and they know how to control you. They know how to get out of you what they want, and the money is flowing. So in your career before you learn all money is not good money and your reputation matters,

and you know you have constant money coming in. And that's a very hard experience because you have no client control because they know more than you. Without a law degree, they know more than the judge, so it's very hard to maintain the case. Now, the next thing I want to go talk about why do people get divorced? I could spend an hour on this topic, but I heard this quote before, and it really stuck with me. I think people spend more time preparing for the wedding than

they do the actual marriage. People aren't talking, they don't know what they want the marriage to look like, they don't know what makes them happy. They haven't talked to their spouse about what makes them happy. So people are just getting married and then trying to figure it out

once they get in the relationship. I think what's also challenging, though, is that the narcissistic relationship so at a whole level of challenge to that, right, yes, because with all the conversations in the world, we're never going to make this relationship healthy. And then people say, well, shouldn't people have figured this out before they got married? Ish, you know, the idea of this whole trauma bonding justifying not getting what this is. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a person.

Maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive. I mean, the whole litany of things we talk about on this podcast all the time that folks are kind of in a storm. And so then there is this idea of like, but I really do want to get married, I really do want a family. If their friends are all getting married, this whole agenda that's happening that has nothing to do And so I was thinking, I saw some stuff that made me uncomfortable, but there was enough boxes being ticked.

I'm like, oh, if there ever there was a time to not compromise this before you agree to this. But even once they're in it, the justifying all that stuff continues, and communication and all of that stuff that's all off the table. People are in a mess that they just simply don't understand. And if they don't have the language of narcissism, they just don't even know what they're dealing with.

And most of the time they're blaming themselves. There were more procedures to get in ilish, there were more conversation, more procedure to get in to force people to really think about the commitment. I really agree, And you know what, I think part of the problem is a lot of that has happened in sort of more religious spaces, you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, church, marriage counseling, these six sessions you might have to do, and I

think that's tricky. I think that's designed like let's talk about things, but I actually mean sort of like, for example, when a patient comes from my practice. There's an informed consent where I'm kind of listening everything that could kind of go wrong. Right, Nobody is signing informed consent for marriage. There is no form. No, they're not even talking about it. That's a thing. Yeah, informed consent for marriage. I never even thought about it until now, Like, please know that.

Can you imagine a lot of people, and there'd be two doors if you're still want to that would be that door and the other door. There's a bar right there, just have a coverage. I want the bar want. I think I'm gonna take a path on that one. Okay. So when you're in a narcissistic relationship and things go wrong, the one thing a narcissistic person cannot do is regulate disappointment.

They cannot a job offset, not getting the bonus they thought, not getting the promotion, not getting the money, whatever it may be, things not working out the way they want. They lack the flexibility to roll with that. And so a marriage that was already a little precarious because this person was really difficult to start with. When things go wrong, when it falls apart, it falls apart colossally, and narcissistic

people always blame everybody else for what's gone wrong. This is your fault, This is your mother's fault, this is your sister's fault, this is the kid's fault, this is the dog's fault. And then when the divorce process starts, this is an unfair process. This is the entire process is stacked up against me. Victim victim, victim victim, right, and that's how they go that to that process. But a lot of narcissists high too, that can really hide

who they are. Charm your sacks off until you're married. Demitria notes that narcissism can hide behind charm. It's not that they hide, it's that the superficial charm is a tactic meant to get validation, and that is on when they feel in control and in power. But lurking underneath at all times is the rage that comes out when they feel insecure, So they can be very charming in

the courtroom. Oh yes. And what's challenging about this is if a person's gone through a narcissistic divorce, they often look crushed. Okay, they look crushed and broken by the process, so they can look hollowed out. They may be hunched over, they may be crying, they may not actually even look well put together because they've been through something. Right, the narcissistic person comes in there, they're charming, they are grandiose, they're so privilege they feel like they belong there. They

almost are acting like their buddies with the judge. That's what the judges need to be able to see through, because that picture is maybe of like, well, maybe this person just was like there's something wrong with them the other person and this person seems to have it really well,

sort of put together. Have you ever had that situation where your client was really sort of broken down by this process, and then the charming narcissist comes in and walters into the courtroom and everyone's thinking, well, they've got it all together. I have, and I've had to have a hard conversation. If we go in here crying, it's not gonna be good for us. So let's cry. Now, let's take a break, let's go have coffee, and then we're going to go back in because unfortunately it is

a sign of weakness. And when we go into court again, we want to present our facts, our case and get to the court what we want. But if we go over there like you said, slouched over crying. Your message is overshadowed by that. It's unfortunate because there's a reality to it. The reason that person is hunched over is because they've gone through something. It's not you know what I'm saying, it's not at all weak. In fact, that's a really strong response experiencing something real. But the judges

do not understand trauma. Right. But this is what I tell my clients too. Again, this is a business, and there's a way you have to present your business. We have to deal with our emotions and our trauma and everything we went through, but unfortunately we cannot present that in the courtroom. We will be right back with my conversation with Demitria. So let's talk about you, not your custody.

It's messy enough already, and this is where all the emotions come in because most people say car, dining, table, house, even whatever. I want my kids, right, How do you help people through this process when they're starting and going through a narcissistic divorce and this custody issue of minor children is in play. It depends on where we are

in a case. Because I've had a case where the narcissistic partner went and tried to win custody before the case even started, right, So when we're in that circumstance, and clearly that's a different strategy. And sometimes if you even start with fifty fifty, it kind of unravels on its own because sometimes the narcissistic partner cannot sustain it, especially if there's new supply that they're focused on. They

don't even want their children fifty percent of the time. Yeah, no they don't, but they'll fight for fifty percent because they know they're going to mess with the other person. But then it falls apart and they can't do it. So and the fall apart process because the decision, a court decision may be made for fifty percent, right, the fall apart would then be the documentation of this pickup didn't happen. They didn't take them for any of the

weekends they were supposed to. They disappeared from They don't care about that because they won. They won the fifty fifty, right, But then your client is now going to have to mount up the legal argument and go back into the court. Ye. Right. So that's the thing is that to modify it, you're not going to get that appointment right away, And so while you're waiting those gaps of time, got the fifty fifty judgment, narcissistic person messing up, messing up, messing up

new court dates all the way over here, right. But in this entire process here, what's happening is that that narcissistic person, the narcissistic x narcissistic co parent, is lording it over them. Hey, I got fifty percent, don't you plan av cage? I got fifty percent? They don't take the fifty percent, but the court dates all the way out here. This is so psychologically difficult for people who

are holding up eighty percent custody. They're not getting the financial support necessarily if they're entitled to it for eighty percent custody. But then when they try to plan a life for these children, it's exactly then where that narcissistic co parent will say, well, I do have fifty percent, and if you don't do that, well then you are in violation that fifty fifty. That's the game I've seen

played over and over and over. And what's said to me are the kids are watching, they see what's happening. They're the most impacted. This sticks with them, and a lot of children do not have the language to express how they're feeling and what that's like. I also think of the number of people who sort of wait until their children are either coming in sixty seventeen years old or full on eighteen, like eighteenth birthday celebration of my

eighteen child's eighteen birthdays. I'm rolling up to court and I'm filing for divorce right where the custody stuff is off the table. Right. The big question I get why can't the courts just do what's right to protect children and instead get caught in this. Well, by the law, they're allowed to have this. What are your thoughts on that.

I think courts think they're doing the best that they can with the information that they have, right, because we both know narcissists can hide some of this behavior, they can present the best of themselves. And let's say, I'm gonna use myself for an example. If I have a mental issue and I went to a mental health facility for a couple of months, you're using that against me.

So now it's how can she take care of a child if she has these mental health concerns, or how can she take care of a child if she works eighty hours a week, and so they know how to use things against you to make themselves look better and hide the narcissistic trade. The thing that I try to work with clients on is can we get you set up in your attorney, set things out the right way that you make the narcissistic person snap. That's the game. I mean, I hate to say game, but that's the game.

You know, is how can we get them? And part of it is you know, you not reacting, you staying strong, you coming in looking like your fear self and your new suit into the courtroom. That it's anything that can make them again snap so that their personality comes will show to the judge. There are other players where there's children in custody, there are people who represent the child in proceedings. These folks are a blessing and a curse because a lot of them don't understand narcissism right. And

it also depends on who they align with. Some alind with the narcissisms. I know that that can be very very dangerous, very dangerous. Can you explain what a guardian ad litem is from a legal perspective? If that's just someone that's appointed as the guardian of the child if something for whatever reason, either parent is not in the capacity to care for their kid, okay, and so the guardian a lighted is someone the parents choose, or it's someone who's acting. Sometimes the court has to choose if

the parents are unable to choose, okay. So this is a person who's in the child's life yes, okay, Kennedy and sort of helping represent their interests in court process. And what I see mostly in family court at least here is either miners counsel yes, which is a lawyer that is appointed for the child's voice. We also have miners interview where miners are interviewed by the judge to

talk about whatever the issue may be. And then we have custody evaluations where someone that's like a therapist comes and evaluates the situation and makes a recommendation for the court what they deem to be the children's best interests. The bigger problem to me is sometimes they don't have enough time to really get into the needy gradient what's going on, and most people don't have money to pay for a private evaluator that can be fifteen to twenty

thousand dollars. And then again, if that person aligns with one of the parties, it's not giving the court adequate information. And then miners counsel. Most parties don't have money to pay for the minor to have a lawyer. But I know for me in my practice, I don't like kids to have to be interviewed or have lawyers. That is very traumatic. They do not want to do that. It's very traumatic. And Okay, so this is another really important one.

Kids are often it's not hurt, sometimes even traumatized by this entire process. Yes, what if you have a situation where one parent very much wants therapy for the children, but the other parent is saying no, and they have set up their medical care. Is that both parents have joint legal custody, which is what most parents tend to have, is joint legal custody, meaning they both can make legal

decisions about the child. But I will say family court is very, very supportive of therapy for children, especially in divorce settings. So you better have a really good reason why you're objecting to therapy and why you feel it's not in the best interest, because what can happen is you can lose your joint deciding authority, and that one parent can have the authority to decide if the kids are going to do therapy or not. If the one parent is trying to stop something like, there has to

be a really good reason, Okay, all right, yes, yeah. However, I have seen though that the parent who is trying to refuse therapy could forestall the process. They're waiting for the hearing until they have that, so it could be months, sometimes even a year. The child can't get therapy because

you can't get both parents to what. I've heard judges saying that regardless, that is not child focused and if you don't come up with a good reason, I need to know why the other parents shouldn't have so legal custody. I think that the hardest thing that people learn is that family court is actually not designed to protect children. That's not its function, and that's what a lot of people think it is. And sadly though this system is harming children. I have worked with adult survivors of these

court systems. I'm thinking of one woman in particular, and she said, I was destroyed by what happened in that family court. That fifty fifty custody. Yes, damn near broke me. If the function of family court is not to protect children, what is the function of family court? Well, they will tell you it is to protect the children and get the parties divorce. But as we're talking that that's not the case, not the case right now that it's pushing

the cases through. Family court has so many cases in front of them, especially post pandemic, so they're not spending the time on each case to really get down to the details of what's going on. They can only do with what is presented to them by the parties. And a lot of times we can't see the narcissistic behavior because they're hiding behind their masks, and they do it really well. To me, family court is a place where

this legal contract called marriage is taken apart. Yes, and I think that that contract part that's not very romantic and it's not sexy like a honeymoon or a wedding cake. But it is a contract. And when we take contracts

apart ahead of their term, there's a process. Yes, And what if the narcissistic co parent keeps trying to drag the other person back into court over everything from the hundred dollars for karate lessons to the new pair of snow boots, like every little expenditure they're trying to adjudicate. How do you handle those cases for your clients. I have told my clients to keep as great as records

as possible. Document everything. I paid you ten dollars on February twenty third for karate whatever it is, to document it, because nine times out of ten, if the narcissistic partner did not win, you are going back to court. Okay,

what is your guy around? Family communication apps? Like My Family Wizard and I'm talking parents love them and I think our Family Wizard has the tone meter, So if you feel if you feel that you know you might use choice words, it has a tone meter and it'll tell you the alternative to what you want to say. Imagine if we had tone meters we could wear around our necks as we walked around the roof. Be it

really quiet? Right? World? Right? I think you and I are both so familiar with the apps, but people listening may not be. So my Family Wizards has a tone meter. Yes, can you talk a little bit about how that plays out on the app, because I think it's a really great future. So in family courts, sometimes the court has to order that parties have to use an app to

communicate with one another. And so what our Family Wizard does if you send an email because you're supposed to communicate with your other parents on the app, it'll tell you, hey, check your tone when you send this email. And that's based on the words. That's based on the words that you put in the message to the other party. And I also say with the apps, keep it short. Please don't give of seven page letter. Let's see, that's what narcissistic people do if they do give seven page letters.

And you know, the features of our Family Wizard talking parents is that they create a record, a record that is actually admissible in court and chord yes, and that starts to unravel the narcissistic mass as well. The court continuously sees seven page letters. That's exactly why the courts mandate the use of the apps. The parties can either agree on their own or if the communication is just so far out of control, the court will mandate okay, okay, god than use of the adding Okay. You know what's

interesting about narcissistic folks and divorces. At some point, the kids sort of feel like a nuisance to them and sort of put cramp in their style and all of that. They could do the Disneyland parent thing for a man in it and show up and be all that they're not really interested in the hard work of parenting in many of these most of the cases I've seen, once they have one, whatever custody schedule they were seeking, it falls apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nine times out of tune.

I think there are folks out there who think that going in front of a judge will be this moment when someone is going to bear witness in this really public kind of judicially way, that someone's going to bear witness that this person's a narcissist, and there's going to be this magic moment it'll be recognized, the judge is going to see it. It's going to unmask the narcissist in this really public way, and that the person going through this will feel whole. What you got to say

about that? That makes for great TV, but unfortunately that's not realistic. Yeah, yeah, And do you ever have clients who think that's going to happen. People want to be vindicated, Yes, they do. They want to be they want to be seen, but unfortunately it's not in court. Yeah, I think it's a human in desire that somebody, especially a person in a position of authority, will bear witness your pain. And I think that if people are not prepared that that's

not going to happen. It can actually feel like a catastrophic moment of even in this place where I thought that rightness and justice was going to be delivered, it wasn't seen. What is the rest of my life going to look like? When we have the sense of the world is an unjust place at such a big level, it can actually be this really big existential hole let

people fall into. But I'm gonna referm them back to our expectation conversation, Yeah, of what the court is, what their role is, and what we can expect from an experience. So it's before the person goes in, they need to be aware of that. And you're right, this isn't a TV show where this is this grand moment and everything is seen and the person or people are clapping at the end and it's your crying and your attorney's hugging you. Okay, sorry to bust the bubble. Yeah, yeah, I know it's

good to bust bubbles because otherwise it can get messy. Dmitrich, can you tell people where to find you? I am everywhere, definitely social media, Demitria Graves. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, you can email me at info at Graves Law FIRMCA dot com. I have my own podcast, Legally Uncensored, where I talk about a lot of these issues as well. You're such a fresh, wonderful voice. I so glad that we I get selfishly, so glad that everyone's like, I need an attorney.

I got someone for you. I've got a referral. So I can't thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule, really important work you do to share this with I've learned so much and I'm so grateful to you, so thank you, well, thank you. I'm very very happy to be here. Thank you. Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Demitria. Let's break down Demetria's pre divorce checklist for divorce from a narcissistic person, which is about the psychological shifts you will need to make

within yourself. Her checklist highlights the issue of expectations and mental preparation. She reminds us that one the gloves are off and this is likely to be contentious and ugly to the degree that it is possible, you need to psychologically prepare for this. Number two, it will be more

expensive than non narcissistic divorces. Issues such as overlitigation mean that cost overruns will happen, and that means it is essential you hire a good attorney who understands this strategically so they can be mindful of their time and your money. Number three. They may hire an antagonistic attorney themselves, and it can feel like you are fighting two people. Demetria reminds us that while this can be overwhelming and anxiety producing, it is your attorney's job to handle the arrogance and

the nastiness of the opposing attorney. You just need to be ready for it. Number four. She also stresses that people must have realistic expectations about custody and co parenting. Next in her checklist is the idea that you need to hire a solid attorney that understands narcissism. If you are met with pushback like everyone thinks there x as a narcissist during a divorce all then your concerns may

not be taken seriously enough. Find an attorney that hears your concerns without minimizing them, because if they do not know what they are up against, the divorce may end up being more expensive and take longer. She also strongly encourages clients to work with an attorney that has experience navigating the narcissistic divorce landscape. She also warns against choosing an attorney that is too passive and assumes things will just work their way out, but above all else she

encourages trusting your intuition. In my next takeaway, the key mistakes that Demetria highlighted were that people over engage from the start, don't have a plan, and have the wrong attorney. This may be the fight of your life, so being strategic, tactical, and as supported as possible is essential, especially in a system that doesn't really care if your ex is a narcissist.

In this next takeaway, as part of her pre, during, and post divorce checklist, Demetria strongly encourages people going through a narcissistic divorce work with a therapist. A lawyer is not a therapist, and therapy is the place to work through the strong emotions that this process can bring up. Now, this takeaway is important. Not everyone can afford to hire an attorney, and Demetria provided information on some resources to

consider exploring. If the narcissistic person has an attorney, you will need one as well, and working with local pro bono and legal aid organizations can give you some essential guidance as you go through this process. So in this next takeaway, when it comes to working through the custody process, Demetria had three key recommendations. The first was documentation. Documenting everything and presenting hard data is far more important than saying this is toxic or the other parent isn't following

the plan. Second was the use of family communication apps that allow you to keep a running record of communication. Finally, she again highlighted the importance of therapy not just for the parent, but also for children. And finally, for those of you not married yet, this episode may actually have more relevance than you realize. If you don't want to have to get out, then pay attention to how you

come in. People are able to lavish attention on the minor details of wedding seating arrangements and honeymoon hotels, and that's fine, but the same level of attention and detail have to go into talking through and planning what you want a marriage to look like. We've floated the idea of an informed consent form for marriage, and while that may not exist yet, there is no reason you can't explore these issues, uncomfortable though they may be, before you sign that marriage license.