Are some toxic workplaces created by the cult of genius? Is narcissism a cornerstone of success? On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by someone who had the unfortunate experience of working with Scott Ruden, one of Hollywood and Broadway's most prolific producers who is also considered one of the most abusive bosses in entertainment. Ruden's projects like Zoolander, Clueless, No Country for Old Men, The Social Network, and the
Book of Mormon have earned hundreds of awards. In fact, he's one of just eighteen people who has pulled off the quadruple entertainment Crown called the Egot, winning an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony. But you can't spell egot without ego. For over four decades, Rudin's antics were somewhat celebrated. The Hollywood Reporter billed him as the most feared man in town. The New York Post said he was Hollywood's biggest a hole and in the narcissism worshiping world we live in.
Neither of those articles was meant to.
Be a critique.
Now, after dozens of employees spoke out about the abuse they allegedly suffered. Rudin himself has acknowledged his quote history of troubling interactions with colleagues and said he's stepping back from projects. What was it really like to work for a man who reportedly threw everything from a glass bowl to a baked potato at his employees? My guest today says he had a front row seat to all of
the toxic, violent, and demeaning behavior. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may
be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees.
I want to start at the top.
Can you tell us about your career ambitions at the time that you started with this job.
Yeah, of course, So I went to school for film and television and media in general and straight out of college, I was working on set for a game show. I wanted to be a producer or just more kind of like large scale film and television work. I was young at the time, so I was still kind of figuring it out, but I knew I certainly didn't want to work in licensing, which is what I was doing right before I started working for Scott.
So then the opportunity comes up. Were you excited to work for him? I mean the films that he did, were you know, over one hundred Oscar nominations. It must have been in a way, not knowing anything, a thrill like this was it? This was going to take you into the work you wanted to do.
Oh yeah, I was super excited. They reached out to me, the office manager at the time, recruiting me, asking for an interview, and so to get this opportunity come directly to me, it kind of felt like it just landed in my lap a little. And then having heard of Scott Ruden and then doing more research and seeing the wide array of film and television that he had worked on and projects that I really admired and still admire and still love, felt like kind of really my first,
like real foot in the door. And I do believe that certain opportunities are like once in a lifetime, and this did feel like that once in a lifetime opportunity to work for such a prolific producer who had worked
on projects that I admired. Despite the fact of what I had heard and all the rumors, I was like, I have thick skin, and seemed like everyone kind of had like a certain reputation to a degree and Hollywood, and I had worked on sets, and I had worked long hours, and so I kind of felt like I was prepared for it.
So let me ask you this, what were the rumors you were here? What were the sorts of stories you were hearing before you took the position?
Right? So my colleague at the time kind of laughed when I told him I was going to take a job for Scott Rudin, because he was like, oh, I had a friend who worked for Scott. She only lasted a couple of weeks, you know, kind of just how
volatile he could be. And there was a couple articles out there from earlier on in his career, though the last really big expose you can call it was written in like I think it was probably like two thousand and nine or two thousand and seven at the time, so it had been like going on at decades since those last reports came out. So I was shrugging them aside because I knew myself, and I figured, you know, couldn't be that bad.
Because you were young.
Did you have a framework for like what a toxic boss was before you took the position.
No, definitely not, because when I worked on said at the game show, it was long hours, but I was just a production assistant and everyone on set was really kind, even though like sometimes things would get a little intense just because we're trying to get something shot in a timeframe. So it was intense, but no one was necessarily like cruel or abusive. And then my boss when I was working in licensing, I had already known. She was a friend of a friend and couldn't have been more non toxic.
I mean, she was supportive and great. I had no idea what kind of level of toxicity that would entail.
I actually feel sort of angry right now as I'm even thinking about this, is how much we don't talk to young people about what toxic leadership looks like, that this is a thing, and that if it's described to you, in fact, we frame it as dues paying that kind of get through it. It's not that big a deal. I'm kind of imagining anyone in your position who's so young, who wants an opportunity, but you literally don't have a
framework for what a toxic boss is. I think that's actually really an important thing to take away that, as cynical as it may be, that I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to actually talk to young people who are entering the workforce about what this actually is and what this looks.
Like, especially in film and television and Hollywood in that industry where it's almost kind of an expectation to endure certain environments and kind of pay or dues a little bit. So it's like young workers have no idea what it's like, but then when they experience it, especially in Hollywood or media, it's almost like they feel like they're expected to take it and it's a part of the process. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Do you think that people like Scott sometimes pray on young people, people who are just coming out of school at the beginning of their careers because maybe there's a belief that you don't know better.
Yeah, I think people who are more well established and a bit older, they aren't going to endure that to begin with. And I think nor do they have to take certain opportunities because they're already established, They already have their foot in the door, their career path is already well on its way. But yeah, I would say that he's veering towards this younger workforce because he knows that
they're going to be more apt to endure it. Because when you were in his office and you looked around at kind of the median age, I was only a couple of years out of college and I was still the oldest person, like aside from the office manager at the time, you know, I was still the oldest assistant or intern.
Yeah, there was a sort of inherent disposability that these young people carried in that office, and that kind of dehumanization really bothers me, especially when it's a young person. So tell me about meeting Scott for the first time.
So I went in for I think it was really only one round of interviews, and it was with Scott and then his two associate producers at the time, and it was pretty cordial for the most part, he was actually fairly polite and kind and rather charming. I think the only time I ever saw him like laugh or smile at me was in that interview. There was no indication that anything would be like the way it was, you know, flash forward two months or so, so kind of alleviated those like fears I had of oh my god,
am I going to be able to handle this? It was kind of this reminder of like, oh, he's just a man, and he was kind and cordial enough.
What was interesting, as you say that, as I'm imagining and we think about, you know, people like who have these kinds of bombastic personalities, I could stretch a little and say a narcissistic personality. We think about love bombing, and it seems like all the love bombing you got in this job was like a smile and a minute
of kindness. We often think of like the dynamic that applies in a new job where somebody's trying to you over in recruitment and you're like, oh gosh, there's all these great things that are going to happen, but it's all relative.
And you were told so.
Many and you'd read perhaps so many things that were like ooh, it's a really toxic, difficult guy, and if he got the little bit of a laugh and a bit of kindness, that might have been all it took to say, Okay, I got this right.
And to give him some credit, he did get me a Christmas gift.
But you know, well there you go.
I mean, so I know, right, you know, I do know what you mean right where he kind of like was predisposed to this, and he knew like there's only a certain level of his personality that he could show in that interview, because of course you go into an interview and you see kind of like the volatile nature or what he was like, there's no way you would take that job. I'm sure some people might, but I certainly wouldn't have. And so it was kind of to lure me in a bit to see that softer side
of him, whatever you want to call it. But I think you're entirely right.
So after that, what was the first time you saw the real Scott?
So after that, I was kind of like slowly transitioning For a week or so, I had quote unquote of my two weeks at my job, but it didn't really turn out that way because I would go to the office really early in the morning Scott's office, train for a couple hours, then go to my other job, and then go back to Scott's office at the end of the day to train for the rest of the evening,
whether that was like eight, nine, ten o'clock whenever. And so I think that week or two where I was kind of transitioning and training is when I first got a taste of what the hours and kind of like work life was going to look like, which was like
very long hours, very go, go go. But didn't really see much of Scott during that time, and he wouldn't really pay much attention to me because I was training, and so I I saw him raise his voice a little bit, get kind of volatile, but it wasn't until I really kind of fully started and was in the office from start to finish when I started to see him be volatile and angry towards me and the other assistance.
What was that like when he would be volatile, what would that look like.
He would raise his voice, he would slam doors, and the types of language she would use would just be really degrading language. He would make you feel inferior, words like useless and stupid, and moro on and just anything to belittle the person he was talking down to. It could happen to anyone for any reason. It was the littlest thing that would cause him to be so volatile. You think of like the Devil Wears product.
Right.
You know, I was in charge of coordinating his schedule, but also making sure he had a copy of his schedule, and it would be something as minute or as small as like a spelling error on the schedule that would make him so angry to the point where he would start kind of cursing and yelling and belittling.
We never believe that that's the kind of thing that's going to set someone off to such a degree. Right, First of all, it's never acceptable to use that kind of language, to use that kind of tone in a workplace. Ever, you could maybe imagine that perhaps if somebody transferred ten million dollars of the company's money into and it was gone, maybe some anger, maybe some loud volume, this is a
typo on a calendar. Were there other examples of those kinds of instances, That kind of stuff being what would create the volatility in the workplace really.
Could come down to anything, whether it was the office being disorderly in a way he didn't like, or not getting tickets to a show, or not being able to get a hold of someone on the phone, certain things that we just had no control of. He wanted to talk to someone and we couldn't get them on the phone because they weren't answering, or they would were busy.
It was our fault, it was the assistant's fault. It was the phone assistant's fault for not being able to get a hold of someone even after trying, or if someone just didn't want to schedule a meeting with him, or someone didn't want to give tickets up because they had done it a million times for Scott and he never showed up to the show, and so they were done giving these tickets, and so he would just become volatile at the littlest things. You never knew when it
was going to happen. You could do everything right, and you could do everything in your power to kind of try and navigate that or foretell what it might be that might set them off, but at the end of the day wouldn't really matter, because he would find something to be upset about.
My conversation will continue after this break. How would the staff react. So if somebody was the target of this volatility, the person who couldn't get the person on the phone, the person who couldn't get the tickets, how would the people in those positions, what would you observe happening for them?
How'd they react?
You would kind of just have to sit there and take it and maybe say sorry, but then maybe not say anything, because saying something might just make it worse. And sometimes he would just stare at you and wait for a response, and then as like a bystander, you'd all just like turn your gaze, which makes you feel a little bit guilty at the same time as the person who has to just say nothing in that situation
and let the other person get verbally attacked. But at the same time, you knew that that was you an hour ago, and it was going to be you in a couple hours. Men, when Scott wasn't in the office, we would all joke and laugh about it, and that was really our big coping mechanism while we were all in office together. It was kind of just to make light of it because what else he was supposed to do.
But while it was happening, yeah, there wasn't much you could do or say that would fix it or make him feel better.
I'm curious what was harder being on the receiving end of it or watching someone be on the receiving end of it of his volatility, of his rage.
For me, watching other people be subjected to it, because you almost become numb to it at a certain point of him doing that to you, it could just put up that wall and compartmentalize it. But because there was so many different assistance coming in and out of rotation, there was just like new people that became kind of the victims of his aggressiveness. It was just really hard watching other people, people that became your friends and not of this family, endure this and deal with this.
Yes, you've said a couple of things here that actually just shed light on these kinds of toxic workplace situations. Number one, the fact that there was some support amongst all of you, that you were all witnessing it, you were all going through it together and being able to turn to each other. As hellish as it was, there was actually a really important value to that. It would be a lot worse to be stranded on the desert island alone.
Kind of thing.
That's actually supported by the research literature on this, like having colleagues and those circumstances can actually help people. There's a couple of other things you brought up too, is this idea of watching someone else go through it can actually be equally traumatic. And there was also that anticipation piece, it's a matter of time before this target comes looking for me, and it's a reminder of how bad it
actually can be. And then there's the third thing you brought up, which is you were all actually put in one of the worst positions that beings could be put into, which is to be asked to do something, to have this tremendous, horrible consequence that you would have to face if you couldn't do it, but to be very out of control around getting it done. So if he basically said to you, I want you to alphabetize a thousand pieces of paper, that's just something you had to do.
You could put your head down and get it done. But getting someone else on the phone, getting tickets that can't be done, things that were fully out of your control, there is a unique cruelty to that. Because you had no control, you couldn't get those things done.
You eventually kind of just become numb to it and kind of resigned to it because it doesn't matter how well you do or how well you think you're doing. It's just a matter of time before you see him lash out or have him wash out at you.
I want to go back to this one specific thing you brought up.
I know it's a detail, but it's a detail that I think we could learn a lot from, which is something as simple as the typo on the schedule. Right, we're saying he reacted with rage. What did it really look like when you did that? You make the type of I don't know, a word is spelled wrong, there's a period missing at the end of sense. Whatever, you know, grand error you made. He comes in, he sees it, he rages. What did that really look like?
Have like a specific memory in mind? Actually? And am I allowed to swear on this swear away? Okay? Great?
He had his schedule in a very specific way. So he had like a branded piece of stock paper that was long and thin, and it had like his logo at the bottom, and you'd have to print out his schedule with the hour, who the meeting was with where it was like in order and then print it out and you would bring it to him, and if his schedule updated or there was a change, kind of have to like constantly be bringing him a new, fresh schedule so he could like keep track of where he was
going and what he was doing. And I remember this one instance where it brought him the updated schedule. He was in his confidence room office and you have to stand there while he looks it over and then just shrugs you off or waves you off or tell you like ask you like what the hell is this? Or you know what's going on? But I remember him like at one time crumpling it up, tossing it at me
and being like, what the fuck is this? And I was like I don't know, and you'd be like get the fuck out, go go, and you'd have to go try and like figure out what was wrong. We're on so little sleep, we're stressed, you're so exhausted, and like those little details are so hard to manage, and so I just remember like going through the schedule, nitpicking every detail, like literally going like letter by letter till I found
that I had spelled someone's name wrong. But I remember fixing it and then bringing back in fifteen minutes later then it was good, Then it was fine. What always stuck with me is he didn't want any of us to learn, or to grow or to become better, Because if that was the case, he'd be like, oh, like thanks for bringing this, like just as a heads up, like you know, that's not how you spelled this person's name, you know, and you'd go, that's great to know, got it,
like clocked for next time. But you know, with him, it wasn't.
About that, which is dehumanizing, right. It's feeling like a cog in a wheel.
It is.
This word of use is disposability. There was no interest in your growth. In order to be interested in a person's growth, you actually have to recognize them as separate human beings that could grow rather than I mean, it'sn't be anything's pen in my hand. I'm not interested in the pen's growth. The pen has a function for me, and when it runs out of ink, I'm going to throw it out.
I really struggle.
With that dehumanization, especially when a young person's going through that. On top of this, though, you had said something, we're sleep deprived, right, how are we going to pick up a spelling error? And that sounds like it was related to these really long hours. Talk to us about the structure of that. What did these long hours look like.
Well, his office was structured in a way where he had his executive assistant, which was in charge of scheduling and his kind of day to day operations and then kind of make making sure that the office operations were running smoothly. He had his phone's assistant, who, when he was in office or out of office, managed, you know, getting him in contact with everyone he needed to that day, or if he needed a phone call set up, or you know, he had a list of people he needed
to try and talk to that day. They were in charge of operating the phones, connecting him, transferring him, conference calling, so on and so forth. He had the docs assistant, who was in charge of managing his scripts and making sure that they were kind of accounted for, like an archive of what he's read and what he hasn't read and what he needs to read and make sure that
things are delivered. And then he had the theater assistant, whose kind of main job was ensuring that he had a certain amount of tickets every night or even day to see shows, and even if he didn't go to those shows, like he just liked to have tickets to
shows he might go to. And then he had the interns that were making runs and things like that, and so as his executive assistant, you have the scheduling aspect, but then kind of overseeing to some degree kind of the phone's assistant, docs and theaters, making sure like things are in order, and then also trying to train people that came in and out of those roles, which was pretty frequent, and so some people you know, wouldn't be
in that position for more than two weeks. And so I would be in really early just because he was in really early. I would go in around like five thirty, maybe like six to begin with, and then I would stay through until you know, he left for the day, and that could be eight o'clock, that could be ten o'clock. I had that mindset of like, work hard, do well at this job, good things will come. So you know, I would start to go in earlier to make sure
that everything was set up for the day. But he eventually started going in earlier too, And I don't know if that's because he like saw me going in earlier and you had to prove that he could be in there earlier. Whatever, the logic. Maybe it got to the point where I was going in like as early as I possibly could. That whole day was upwards of like
twelve to fifteen hours. And then I lived in Brooklyn at the time, and the office was in Times Square, So by the time I got home, got showered, got into bed, I mean, I was running on like four hours of sleep at night. Sometimes that was kind of day to day, and then even on weekends he would have to have kind of a person on call. You still had to make sure that his car was where it needed to be when he needed it there, and
made sure his schedule was up to day. So you know, I was really working like extreme hours every day, seven days a week.
These are extraordinary hours.
I mean, it sounds like there's a point at which you started playing the time game. You were coming at five thirty five, fifteen five. That does sound like a game for him. It's a very cat and mouse. When we hear a story like this, one of the things people will say is like, no, no, no, they're just so focused on their craft and their geniuses.
I beg to differ.
If you're trying to beat your assistant into work, you're very aware of your assistant, and so that doesn't feel like the genius who's so absorbed in his work. That feels like someone who is messing with you. That feels intentional. So I have a couple of thoughts here. Number one, that kind of a schedule and you are talking about fifteen sixteen hour days and three four hours of sleep. Nobody, even a young person, can make it on that little sleep.
So a spelling error, that's actually amazing that if those are the only kinds of errors being made. Not to mention the toll on your health that it was literally taking. But I'm talking about executive assistant, phone's assistant, doc's assistant,
theater assistant, plus interns making runs. I imagine this dude had a house or an apartment or something like that, so there's probably a whole team of people who ran the home, and people listening to this would say, if I had this many people running my life, like, what was this guy angry about every single thing? It's almost
like his feet didn't touch the floor. And this is why I think it is important to use personality as a framework here, because any normal human being who is literally being insulated from everything in the world all the kinds of indignities we have to endure, from not getting a parking a lot at the grocery store, to you know, having to press one press four plus six just to get a doctor's appointment. All of that was taken care
of for him. This speaks to personality. The stuff that actually ends up taking years off our life isn't the big stressors. It's this day to day stuff. And he didn't have any of that. So sure the listeners are thinking, dude, what are you so mad about?
No, it's baffling. I mean seriously, they just, like you said, like those day to day stressors that I feel like I have to deal with on a day to day basis compared to you know what he really, like, what is so stressful about? And I know it's stressful like that job and producing, but it's almost like self inflicted because you have all this lavishness and wealth and power, but all he does with it is abuse it and is angry all the time. Yeah, Like I don't know.
I like, if I had the wealth he did, no one would ever hear from me. I would be just like retired for life, like living just like the happiest life.
Now, I mean or for that kind of money, you should be able to for the best shrink in the world too, and clearly that wasn't happening either. So here's the other thing is that you brought up this issue of turnover. I actually would love to get a sense of how long did people last in these positions.
I was only there for about four months, and that was considered really long. I mean, wow, some people would be there for two weeks, and people would be there for a month. I think the executive assistant before me was there for like a month. I think the person that was there after me was there for like a week,
and so it really was like a revolving door. I saw a good amount of phones assistance kind of cycle through, and that was kind of like the hot seat really because it was like the most room for error trying to connect, and like the phone systems were like so archaic, Like honestly, you also think with all that money, you would like just like update your systems or something. I mean, he was like still using a BlackBerry, which is insane.
There was usually a period during the day where he was like, okay, time for my calls, and it would go through like a list of people that needed to be called. It was just really hectic. He would just like buzz in from the other room and be like I need this person, transfer this person or connect to this person. And it was just like so chaotic, and so there was a lot of room for error with
the phone's assistant. Can only imagine what would happen if like a call was dropped or you know, someone can't be transferred in, or there's just kind of like a mess with the phones. And so I definitely saw like a good amount of people get cycled through there doc's assistant. I saw a couple of people get cycled through theater. I saw like at least ones get transferred through.
Did anyone take notice of this rapid turnover because a place where people are leaving jobs after one, two, three weeks, were there no other eyes on this place where people are saying, Wow, people don't last a long time here.
I think it's just one of those things that was kind of well known, but it was kind of just shrugged aside, like just because of the nature of the industry and the nature of Scott Rudin himself. I mean, you should have seen the like the stack of what is it like like w four is whatever you set
up for tax season. Like the just stack of them was so huge, and I was like, goodness, my gosh, you only have like seven people working in here, like over the course of a year, like that stack should be like one fiftieth of the size that it was.
But that's a good that's actually a really interesting measurement of it. But I do think this idea of like, oh, this is what people do. They get in the industry and it's just rough and they can't hack it. I Mean, my concern is always that that's the pathologizing of the person who leaves the job, rather than the person who's
treating him that way. So it sounds that over the course of a year there might have been in all these positions said and told me one hundred people might have gone through this these potentially Yeah.
I don't have like an exact number, but it was high. Yeah.
Wow, we will be right back with this conversation. Okay, So you brought up this phone's assistant thing because he was talking to all these important people. When he'd be on the phone, he's screaming at all of you obscenities, You're all these terrible things.
How would he treat the people he was on the phone with.
I think if it was like a notable name, like a reputable actor or rector, or you know, someone with notoriety, like they were treated a lot better. I think if it was someone that like kind of worked for him to a degree, like, that's when you would kind of get in that murky water of potentially being you know, treated poorly or kind of aggressively.
This, though, takes me back to the point I was making before about how intentional it was, Just like with you coming in the morning, right, if he was screaming at the people on the phone the same way he was screaming at all of you, still unacceptable, but we might have been able to write this off to there's something off about this very disregulated person who just goes through the world screaming everyone doesn't matter who. And again, it doesn't make it right. It still makes it abusive.
But what I feel, even out of the workplace, even in a close relationship, knowing that they're choosing to do that because that's a choice, Because he's choosing to be nice to the person on the phone, which means he's choosing to abuse you.
That's a choice, right, Yeah, No, it's what it felt like. Yeah, I mean he is a volatile man. I think it's kind of a good mix of both of their potentially really being something askew and kind of just that like
need and abuse of power. And I think he was so corrupted by the wealth and the power that he had amassed, because you know, I don't know what he was like when he was twenty, and so I don't know if this is a character issue that stems from whatever, or if this is something that grew and festered as his power and his wealth grew.
I know what my hypothesis is knowing how personality works, and I think that it does become this interaction between whatever the baseline personality is and then getting power. Because I can tell you this right now, if you got power, if I got power, we would never treat people that way ever, right And I can say that with confidence. We may not want the power, we may walk away from the power, and we may not feel this desperate
need to keep the power. But I'm convinced that your personality, being yours, mind being mine, other kind people we know being that wouldn't go there.
Just wouldn't.
Yeah, I think power corrupts corruptible people.
Yes, yes, very well said. That's really really well said. So as you go through this, your four months are unfolding, which must have felt like the longest four months of your life. And if you really sort of played it out in dog years, given how little sleep you got, that four months was actually more like probably two years in the job.
What was the breaking point for you?
That's a great question. Just got to a point where I kind of just stopped caring. I stopped caring about the way he treated me. I stopped caring to try to hard at my job, and so things got like sloppier, which led to him having more outlets or reasons to kind of lash out at me. Got to the point
where he was kind of fed up with me. Me his verbal assaults just really had no effect on me at that point because I was like just so beaten down, and I would, you know, fuck something up and he would be like, get the fuck out of the office, go work somewhere else, and so you know, I would be like all right, like happily, would take my laptop and go sit at a Starbucks or wherever the hell until another assistant would call me and be like, we
need you back in here because something's happening, and I would go back in you wouldn't even notice it. So it got to the point where I think we were both collectively just like done with each other. Where it felt like, you know, said firing wasn't kind of like a fake firing, it was like a okay.
And that was it.
One day you just decided I'm not coming back anymore and you didn't go back.
Yeah, out of you know, kind of just respect for the other assistants. I at least gave two weeks there so like they could try and like hire someone and train someone. And I remember like I had like given my two weeks, and like I think I'll always remember this. They finally got someone hired, like towards the end my two weeks, but they weren't going to start yet. I remember being like all right, like I'm out, like goodbye, and Scott was like, what do you mean, like new
persons have started, and I was like nobody. I gave my two weeks, you know, like I was done, And I just remember some saying like okay, like thanks for everything, like weirdly cordial in a way, like he wasn't like angry or anything. And I found that really bizarre. And so the last time I spoke to him was him just being like, Okay, thanks for everything, and I was like, didn't seem like there was you thought there was much to thank me for. But I'll take it right.
I mean, you served your purpose. And I imagine giving two weeks might have been unusual in that job. People were so wrecked that they were saying I'm out. So that you were willing to do that and endure that, but I guess if you knew it was fineite. That said, though a lot of people would have said, I'm out. I can't endure this. How has this experience affected you as you've moved on to other jobs, other relationships, just in your life, how has it affected you?
It has totally changed my outlook on life for the better. I no longer live in New York. I kind of just up and move to Colorado because I was jobless and kind of adrift, so moved out here. It was one of the best things I ever did. I mean, it was hard, but like compared to what I had just been through. I was kind of just waiting tables at the time, building this new life and this new foundation for myself full life. My passion and my dream was to work in the film industry, and that experience
definitely kind of tainted that for me. And I loved movies. I loved the idea of movies. I loved going to the theater. It was my happy place and it still is my happy place. And you know, seeing his name pop up on screen definitely caused a visceral reaction and going back to like having this kind of new outlook on life, not only the experience I went through to try and achieve this stream, but then also watching Scott
behave in the way that he did. He had all this power, and he had all this money, and he had everything in the world really that so many people would dream and aspire to, but he was still so angry and so miserable, and I was like, that is not the life I'm trying to lead. Like it doesn't matter what quote unquote dreams I achieve. It's just a matter of kind of the life I want to make for myself. And I can choose to be happy, and I can choose to be content, and I can choose
where to put my energy. I put my energy into my friends and my partner and my family and my pet and into nature and to exercising and all these things that give me so much fulfillment in life, because for so long it was is my career was going to be my fulfillment and my dream and my aspiration, and that was going to bring me joy and bring
me happiness. But that experience crushed me. And I don't think it was necessarily the chasing of the dream as much as it was Scott, but then also just looking at what he had achieved, which is what I was aspiring to, but to see how he acted towards people and towards himself, and it wasn't how I wanted to live,
It wasn't how I wanted to treat other people. And so I just prioritize the things that bring me joy in life, and that is kind of my dream, really, is to keep nurturing those things in my life.
I mean, you just said a mouthful about healing. You really really did, because I think that if that was the reboot you took from this, and I'd imagine that people who worked in these assistant positions over the years had a whole variety of different fallout could quite easily see how some people could have left that job and had post traumatic symptoms, you know, anxiety and vigilance and nightmares and feeling unsettled and feeling scared a lot, deeply,
deeply anxious, that kind of thing. I think that that wouldn't have been uncommon either. But to have viewed that as what I just saw, I want my life to be the opposite. That's a big deal for someone, especially a young person, to be able to take away from that. What do you have to say to people who think that enduring this kind of antagonistic, combative, and downright cruel behavior it's part of paying your dues in the industry, It's not.
And you don't have to endure that. We've been conditioned and kind of told that we must like it's a part of the process. It's almost even been glamorized in Hollywood itself. But we are worth more than that, and we don't deserve to be treated like that, and we don't have to endure that. It's not a part of the process. The only way we're going to change it, or at least a big part of the way we can change it, is to reject it and to demand better and to demand more than just abuse and belittlement.
I do know that there is a movement afoot amongst assistants in the industry who are actually trying to organize, and I think that that's actually brilliant. Once Scott was outed, he issued this public apology. He said, much has been written about my history of troubling interactions with colleagues, and I am profoundly sorry for the pain my behavior cause to individuals directly and indirectly.
What did you feel reading that?
I felt his publicist or lawyer did a great job.
Writing as amen, Amen, And I think that as long as there's people with these personalities out there, there will always be publicists and lawyers who will get a job. Thank you so much for your time, very very grateful.
Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Pleasure.
Here are my takeaways from this conversation. The cult of unaccountable genius is doing lots of harm to people who come into certain industries, especially politics, tech, media, and other creative spaces, and particularly.
To young people.
It seems that since time immemorial, we have given a free pass to the geniuses in our midst to behave as badly as they want, but to frame it as a necessary and even glamorized hazing ritual and that somehow the genius is entitled to their holatile tantrums. They are not, and no matter how successful someone is, to be in the wake of dismissive, dehumanizing, and rageful behavior is not
healthy for anyone. In our next takeaway, toxic workplaces treat people as disposable, and it's time we break out of the myth that if I just work hard and tolerate this for long enough, it will be a jumping off place for my dreams. You're more likely to experience the fallout of severe psychological stress than you are to be launched into your own successful path. When you work for a toxic boss, there is only room for their success, and many people have wasted years waiting for their turn.
That's not going to happen, and you may actually harm your mental and physical health as you wait for this illusion to turn real. For our next takeaway, this story reminds us that toxic workplaces aren't just about the abuse we endure, but also about watching it happen to other people,
and that can sometimes be even more taxing. As individuals, we may be able to compartmentalize what is happening to us, but when it is happening to someone else, it can be devastating to witness it, especially if we feel powerless to help, and can plant a terrible seat of anxiety as we wait and wonder when we will be the
next target. In this next takeaway, when we feel tempted to give toxic bosses a free pass or just write it off to the pressure they are under or their fiery creative spirit, remember that in most cases, their behavior.
Is a choice.
In this case, Rudent's raging at assistance was not mirrored in his phone calls with movie stars and other high status folks. A tyrannical sort of superpower of anyone with a narcissistic personality is that they are able to take their mask on and off, and that is intentional. This isn't the uncontrollable spirit of a creative genius. This is a choice that reflects the toxic person's belief that some
people matter and most people don't. And in our last takeaway, the story of this one assistant shows us how complicated these outcomes can be, even in a short time. Working under such abusive circumstances, he acknowledges being changed by it and In his case, the change wasn't all bad. It ended up being an unexpected wake up call on how to live life, which in essence was to live life in the opposite manner of the boss he had witnessed. But it also did mean giving up on a dream
of a career in the film industry. I'm saddened to think about how many people have left industries because of these experiences. But maybe when we leave these jobs and settings to heal, we find a healthier path for ourselves. A narcissistic boss is a masterclass on how not to live and work.