Breaking Traumatic Cycles with Cheryl Burke

You know Cheryl Burke from her twenty six seasons on Dancing with the Stars. But behind the rhinestones and glam, Cheryl's life was filled with trauma, addiction, and abandonment. All of this has profoundly affected her life. Cheryl says she's

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Oh yes, you and I actually met a few years ago when I was on your podcast and you talk to me about narcissism right and been a foreshadow. You said, oh, you should have your podcast. Yeah I didn't, and here we are an even better. You're a guest who knew I was psychic, So thank you.

Of course I want you to know how much you have affected my life in a way that you probably don't know. But when you we were on the podcast, we did talk about my real father who has passed, and you mentioned how the qualities of a narcissist, right, and it really put everything into perspective for me, and in a weird way, I was able to not necessarily validate his actions or anything, but to at least be able to label it in a way and have some sort of piece as to Okay, so my father was

I appreciate that so much. I think having a frame for something sometimes it's even just about lifting some of that self blame and recognizing that it's a structural thing that was simply going to happen to anyone who happens to be in the position you were in as his daughter, and it lifts us out of the story. You were still hurt by it, you were still affected by it.

Thanks for creating an amazing outlet and resource for people, because this is very important. I heard you say recently that though it may seem like we're going through this as a collective of being able to talk about our traumas, at the same time, we're not, you know, and on top of it all because of you know, social media.

Well, yeah, I do appreciate that, and I agree with you. I think that we often are We're open to these stories almost only to the point where sort of we learn the information, but we don't want to hear the emotion and what it does to the person. You know, it's always like what I call sort of trauma storytelling that we're just we want to hear the terrible thing that happened. But that's a tiny top of an iceberg.

Who gets then almost made out to be the perpetrator.

That's actually something, interestingly Churel we talked about with an expert of ours, doctor Fried, who developed a model of that called DARVO. DARVO is an acronym developed by doctor Jen for Fried and stands for deny, attack and reverse victim and offender. It is the way manipulative and abusive people respond to accusations. I like to think of it

I'll never forget I got sexually molested when I was a little girl, and I testified against him in court when I was like nine years old. And I remember even that time as if it was yesterday. I just felt I was here sitting in front of the perpetrator right and it wasn't just me, it was quite a few people. They wouldn't let my mom with me inside the court, and I will never forget feeling like I

It's a horrible feeling when you also stacked it up nine years old. If any of us close our eyes and think back to how young.

Yeah, nine is, Yeah, that's young, right.

Adult survivors of any form of sexual assault or trauma rarely testify in their cases, So what you did would have been beyond the pale for even an adult, and it's understandable why nobody wants to testify in these cases. These systems are all designed to give perpetrators their that's how our justice system is set up, and to be doubting of the accuser. That is the foundation of how

Yeah.

We talk about people being invalidating and traumatizing, and frankly, narcissistic systems are too. I think the judicial system is a great example of a system that is invalidating and traumatizing, especially for survivors of any form of sexual violence.

Yeah, thanks for saying all of that. It just reminds me of people in general who suffer in silence because of the fact of either feeling like they weren't believed when telling their story or there's so much shame because of not being able to or feeling like they can't communicate it. You know, I was blessed, I guess enough for my mom to put me into therapy since I was a little girl, and I haven't stopped, and it's

It's so interesting you say that, Cheryl, because trauma is very much encoded in stored somatically. That's where we keep it. And what we've learned in the last thirty years of trauma treatment is that that sematic focus is a game change, right and reorienting to our bodies. What's remarkable to me is you a trauma survivor, your body became your form of art, So what an ultimate way to heal. But also it's really weird too.

You're like, yeah, but you're going to stuff yourself in a dance costume when you've been violated, right, and comfortable dancing in front of millions of people.

Yeah, for people who are listening. You know, when we're talking about how we hold things sematically, we hold them in our body. So trauma gets held in the body. And I've been working for years, I mean, if not lifetimes, and I have to say, over the years, it would be many times people wouldn't connect. It would be even things like when people felt they couldn't speak, the strangulation in the throats, anxiety, it's felt in the gut, it's

Because you can't hide the feeling.

You can't hide the feeling, you can't hide your sensation. But a lot of people don't connect the dots interesting. They have the sensation, they've had this experience, but what they don't realize is that this stuff that's held in their body the Semitic stuff, and that their body is signaling something to them. And so that's why, in some ways, your body is an interesting early detection device because I will tell particularly people have survived any kind of trauma,

But with that feeling when you're like, do I walk through this alleyway or not? Like you just know you just need to give it a second and trust it. It's body awareness, just knowing when your stomach hurts or whatever it is. Oucha, you ran to the door, done that a few times, you know it hurts, like and

Okay, so let's go backwards, All right, let's go back. So you were not talking. You didn't really start talking until you were two, No, after that, three four, maybe five five? Okay, all right, so that would have been something that would have jumped out. Okay, yeah, but at two you said your parents divorce. Right, Can you talk to me about that period of time because it sounds like that that was a separated or separated but that's a significant event for sanchi, young child to us no

Well, it was interesting because my mother's Filipina. She was raised long story, shortened poverty and moved here to the States and created a nursing agency called Nurse Provider. So she opened up the very first nursing agency. Like how we as talent have agents. So she was very, very busy. And I was born in eighty four and that's when her company had just started, so there wasn't a lot of I guess I was raised with my Filipina nanny

You had a lot going on, and that kind of the chaos, the multiple languages, all of that. I mean, now we would probably have assessed a child like you very differently. Well, what I'm hearing is busy parents, yes, distracted parents, Yes, you're going back and forth. The only consistent through line in your life is a paid kit nanny who didn't speak who didn't speak English. What I'm hearing is being affected. There was attachment.

I am totally anxious attachment.

Okay, all right, And so let's talk a little bit about any anxious attachment is because people are going to say, well, what does that mean if someone's anxiously attached? What does it mean to you? Before I launch into sort of a professorial what anxious?

Okay is? I love this already. I could talk to you for weeks. I have anxiety when it comes to

Does that look like when you become So if you go.

So like if I feel rejected by let's say, if I'm like, oh, let's cuddle, or like I'm becoming I'm extra vulnerable right through my body and I don't feel like that other person is open to it, then I will right away my wall.

Fast right and and so you know, with this protective you're protecting, I'm protecting myself and this kind of you know, the kind of early inconsistency in mild chaos you were

Can be then realize that only I can do that for.

Myself as now, But some children can be securely attached to one caregiver and not to another. Of course, but when we get into the area and.

We had my second caregiver who admosted me.

There you go. See. So that's what we're going to get you that now, when a caregiver engages in harm, you were older than then I would know. So yeah, so not much older, but those early early caregiver attachments, those become really profoundly important. As other people come into the sphere of the child, it's still going to affect attachment. The way they researched this was they would actually look at what's called separation behavior and reunion behavior. So children

Yes, yes, yes.

In the avoidantly attached child, when the point of separation comes, they kind of walk off and when the parent comes back, there could be some tears, some agitation, but by and large they remain disinterested.

What are the parents like when you're avoidant attachment.

They're neglectful. There's much more. It's very much a.

Different like neglectful versus intrusive busy.

Well that's that's a neglect. But there's also there was intrusiveness too, right, there was also like it's not as though you didn't think there was anyone there, you know, it's that they were there and they were kind of like up, down, in out, probably overinvolved, under involved, that kind of thing that it's not like nobody there.

And can you get to the secure attachment.

It takes a lot of work, it does, you know. But here's the thing you said, you're in therapy. Therapy becomes actually one of those places where the secure attachment gets created again. You know that the therapist is there on time, and they're there and available, and they don't reject you because you say something. And that if in long term psychotherapy, that can be one place for it.

That was traumatic?

That's traumatic.

Yeah, and I'll never forget as well. Like I remember, you know, because I was staying there so I had to shower, you know, and I needed help, so he'd make me shower with this like woman who was his secretary. Yeah, it was pretty traumatic seeing that. And I just remember seeing opening the door and seeing just like the back of her she had long black hair. It was it's interesting, like and she was naked.

Obviously.

This is how much detail I know. I was sitting in my dad's brown leather chair watching Sesame Street on PBS, and I wanted him to change the channel. And I go in and there was like a crack in the door, and then I saw him, you know, being with this other woman. And obviously I didn't know it was his secretary back then, obviously I didn't know. I couldn't put anything into words at the moment, but of course it was traumatic, and I think that was the start of you know, what I thought was and.

What what would that be?

That would be all unhealthy? I guess toxic traits of a man, which is a narcissistic personalities abuse. And I don't just say that because of my father. I say this because of the perpetrator as well, the person who actually abused me. And then on top of it all, like the pattern that's that was my definition of love was the man who wasn't available.

Well, that's what it is. It's the chaos, right love.

I would still say, I'm a recovering addict, but still like there is that feels like home still sometimes like my lazy brain, as I say, which is just me not being present or conscious as much. It goes back to that like easily.

So that early instance, Okay, you walk in on your so your father who is in theory, these are his few days with you. He's not being an attentive caregive no instead, what he's doing is you know, having this fling with his secretary. You see this, Okay?

Yeah, and he knows I would assume he knew.

Right this one instance was I mean sheheryl. People have walked in on their on parents, maybe even parents and someone else having sex. Right, It's an image that often stays with people. That event was one. How did that connect to your larger relationship with your father, because it doesn't sound like that that was so.

He left that country for his own selfish reasons. So my dad was a very successful lawyer in the bar area and then followed his passion and I won't say it here with the P and the Y, but open up a bunch of strip clubs. That's his passion, right, correct? It was rest and peace. I'm sure it's no longer his passion.

I would hope you never know what happens on the other side, that's for sure.

I can't tell you any different. I mean, I'm just assuming or maybe dreaming that he's now like this. Who knows anyway, Rest and peace dad? But yeah, so he had a bunch of strip clubs in Pataya, in Thailand, and clearly he loves loved his Asian women and opened up a bunch of strip clubs. I was exposed to that world because my mom wanted me to continue having a relationship with my father. Didn't want to obviously, I guess promote me not talking to him or seeing him.

So when you would go to Thaighland for these vacations on a top of bubbles and.

With my stepdad, with my stepsister by mom, So your mom's a family affair mom stepfather's sister, my mom remarried. Yeah, So would you.

Stay on top of bubbles or would you.

No, we would stay at the Holiday Inn. Okay, it's way nicer there. Just y that it is here.

Stay at the Holiday Inn. But it was you were very aware of the whole What was it you mean clubs?

It was a clubs. I was never going in the club right, And my dad was an alcoholic, so he was only able to talk to us in a silver way after five pm, So we wouldn't talk to him before five and we would see him between the windows of five and eight, and he loved to have long dinners and long talks and conversations. I'd be jet lag, I'd fall asleep wherever we are, and he would take my stepdad out once a year and it would be

Okay. So what that also communicates is that your father made a choice. He left his one daughter, yeah okay, and when she's a very small child to pursue his strip club dream in Thailand. So he's not doing this in the Bay Area. Now, he's doing this on the other side of the world and leaves you for his own need with no awareness, no reflection, no empathy.

And no care really care. Yeah, honestly, Like I remember dancing, when I started in the ballroom dancing competitive world, my mom signed me up to do this competition in Hong Kong and we're like, oh, because it's close by. You know, your dad can finally see you in person. After all these years he hasn't come to see you, and he

How old were you in the ballroom dancing competition?

I was like thirteen or fourteen.

So all those years you kept maintaining hope around Yeah, of course.

And it was interesting because to this day, I feel like my real father will always know more about me than my mom in a way, because I felt like I was never judged by him because he couldn't tell me what to do because he was never there. As I got older, we would have long talks and conversations like as if he was a buddy of mine. But still so much pain. You know, I could and always still wanting to feel like I was being though I wasn't validated. I'm still yearning for that, you know.

Every child? Yes that though, I think that what we forget about children because it's not comparable to describe what happens to a child with a narcissistic parent is what happens to an adult in a narcissistic relationship. Right. The child can't be taught that the parent is never going

And except the fear of flying, it was paranoia, nothing to do with me.

Right, fear of flying. He managed to get to Thailand.

Right, nothing to do with me. Yet I thought back then everything to do with me, You feel like it's your fault, everything is your fault, and then those are the men I needed.

That's right, and that that idea of everything your fault, that's at the center of classical formulations of trauma, like Judith Hermann's work, who studied children who have gone through trauma, and then her work is sort of seminal work on this idea of the child takes responsibility Judith Herman, and that stays with the person their entire lives. We will

As you know, I'm an addict. I'm a recovering addict. But you know I'm all or nothing, which is why you know, my therapist and I have for years now worked consistently on the gray area because it is very black or white for me in my mind.

Have you ever thought of all or nothingness like that? Almost to be a form of dissociation. It's a way to not feel pain, right.

Girl, you're speaking by language, Yes, I just got jills. Absolutely, I'm really good at productivity. That's my new drug.

Productivity is actually the It's the drug of the twenty first century. And everyone thinks you're a hero for engaging, especially in this.

Country because I've lived everywhere almost and I swear this is the only kind that celebrates the hustle, and it's actually nothing to celebrate because with that comes stress, With that comes to oh my god. I mean I could talk about that for hours, but yes, and my mother was that right. So is that she was raised in a Filipino family where vulnerability wasn't celebrated. It was a shamed like you were not supposed to show that side of you, coming from the Asian culture. And then on

I mean again, motion is very good, but I think also having something that absorbs your mind. That's healthy, something that absorbs your mind, But using that to numb yourself and in essence to it unconsciously, that's right, because you're not processing the stuff you need to process now, and then you're doomed to keep repeating these trauma cycles because you're not actually addressed ceiling. Right, So your numbing was coming through this competitive dancing. Then it was alcohol, and

Dream When I moved here and when I started dancing on the Stars in two thousand and six, I was twenty one. I started when I was legal, Okay, legal? Okay, So you're dancing Advice and my Debutant's Ball when I was eighteen.

Okay, so you're you would you dance competitively? Dad's not in your life, doesn't.

My stepdad is my dad at the step.

Okay, okay, you step father. Your stepfather's great, wonderful is So.

However he did I mean, I'm not saying, I'm just saying the facts here. He the person who sexually molested me, came from you know, his side, I guess came. He brought this man who was taking care of his daughter. You know, I'm not blaming him by any means. But you know, I'm just letting you know the fricks.

But that was also a disruption in our minds. We we pair things, we learned things through association. So as much as you you love him and he's been a good person in your life, he is associated with then bringing in this really harrowing experience into your life. But then what you get to eighteen?

Okay, well you know, thirteen to eighteen, okay, so that's my virginity at thirteen. You know, ballroom dancing is very intimate. We're basically dry humping each other, just so that everyone knows this is how intimate it is. A ballroom industry reminds me of the entertainment industry. A lot lots of narcissists, lots of great things as well. It's all about the you know, unfortunately, the way you look, and it's all about like it's old school. It is a man's world

So it was a dance partner, yeah, okay, And so that sounds like that was sort of was a normative in the world, you know, not normal. I also looked like this when I was thirteen, so okay, well, so okay, So then you know, you were I was very developed, okay, and that's young though, thirteen years young and start to start having sex. And so you go from thirteen to eighteen, did you do school remotely or did you go back to school?

I would go to high school.

You go to high school and then do the dancing on the weekends.

Then I was like living two lives. And then I had a boyfriend also after you know, that first partner. Because I had like a total of eight to ten partners throughout my competitive world and dance partners. Dance partners. Yeah, no, no, not my sophomore year. I got into two very abusive relationships. That was when that started.

That's young again, young for these things. An adult person's brain can't process an abusive relationship. And after already having been through really abandonment by your father. Abandon it might be a strong word for your mother, but she certainly was not in your life, you know what I'm saying, as much as as much she could have been, but she was there, she was supporting you financially, did the best she could. You were sexually abused, and now you're

I'm looking out for outside validation clearly by joining this ballroom, competitive world full of lashes, rhinestones, and spray dands.

So those are your teens and then you turn eighteen, right, I mean that's sort of the magic adult moment. Did things shift in terms of you graduated high school?

I had a debutant's ball. Oh that's my mom's fault. Okay, she made me Okay, I was very shy growing up in my teens, but again, dance was my way of communicating, so that was the one thing I knew I was good at. I was never good at school. I wasn't curious and I didn't care, and I was kind of a loner. So I was with this protective, jealous boyfriend for most of my high school and with that comes no friends. And then I also had my dancing life that I was kind of ashamed of in a weird way.

Protective jealous boyfriend was okay with dance world.

Didn't know. Dad didn't know, he would know. But then I would just go back and forth because there was a certain time where my mom wouldn't let me be away from it. So I had rules to follow, and those were the times that i'd go to the dance studio because I knew he was going to be jealous and controlling and protective. Yeah, okay, So there were moments of like that, and then the make up breakup, makeup, breakup,

Were these physically abusive relationships emotionally abusive, both Okay, so that's a huge pardon to care.

And no one knew at that time. I was not in therapy, but I had a lot of older friends in the ballroom world who helped me through, you know, yes, because I didn't feel comfortable enough to go to my parents.

Right, So all of this is unprocessed. There's now multiple unprocessed from us at this point. Oh yeah, was your dad completely out of your life?

Then my real dad?

Yeah, you're probably alogical dead in Thailand.

I think there was a moment there where we stopped talking for a few years, but it was a constant letdown, you know, and as I got older, I saw it. But then I remember, like that Hong Kong trip, I stopped talking to him for like a few years. That was a choice that I made. And yeah, so I mean I wouldn't even consider him to be somebody I could call and talk to. But I did tell him everything afterwards after the fact.

Did two of you ever get on a more normalized relationship together?

And that's normal. I would visit him, we would, I would, and I brought my dance partner at the time of my dance coach. We went and then I saw his strip clubs really like active happening face to face there when I was like eighteen nineteen. And then I remember taking my ex husband there when he was basically on his deathbed.

Yeah, you and your dad was on his deathbed.

Basically am in there? Okay.

He stayed in Thailand for the rest of his yes life. Okay, so now this all you If you're going into adulthood, you're continuing to dance, but you're also continuing to be in relationships.

Yeah. Oh I was never single.

Okay, you were, Oh, you were never single, So talk about that now.

This is the longest I've ever been single. Oh for a year and a half almost, all right, Yeah, and I choose to date myself right now, I really do not want to date anybody still, Okay.

So then if you were never single, what was that?

Like so much energy emotionally, like an emotional rollercoaster, but I was addicted to Like, without it, I felt like my life was boring and stagnant. Though that's my goal now to be boring but not boring, you know what I mean. Like that feeling of just being okay and at peace and at ease was something that I was not necessarily craving because I labeled it as boring and you're not in love. Then for me, being in love was the drama that you see on TV.

That's trauma bonding. Yeah, that's right there, that's trauma bonding. The chaos becomes conflated with love. And so getting into a relationship that doesn't have the highs and lows and the good days and the bad days and all of that. When it's sort of steady, people will say, well, that's a friendship or that's not love, or I'm not feeling it.

Mom and stepdad, and I was like, oh, they're definitely bored with each other, but really, no, that's just a healthy I wish I would have seen that as a little girl.

I'm just curious about this because you were in so many relationships, one after the other after the other. Was there a commonality between all of these people that they were all abusive? That was one? Okay, there you go. Not I was hoping you'd say they all had brown eyes, but okay, so the commonality.

They were all most of them were narcissists, and the ones that weren't I wasn't that into.

Okay, So let me ask you this then, because It's interesting when you've had a life where you've had multiple relationships within validating toxic, narcissistic people. What attracted you to these people? I kind of think I know the answer, but I never want to present.

One of them reminded me of my father.

Okay, well there you go.

It is one hundred percent true from either the way they look or and the personality traits. I've been cheated on multiple times and knew about it, and it was just a little tiny version of Steve Burke.

When did you have the insight that all of these men that you've dated over the years somehow reminded you of your father?

So this was just maybe five six years ago, Oh recently. So I have two therapists. I have a Semitic and then I have a traditional one, doctor Wexler now for a decade every week and ten years ago so I was still drinking. So when she would try and talk to me about I just she told me I wasn't having it. So none of it.

So in those early years, you were just going from man after man who signed The quality of them resembled your absolutely the same chaos, betrayals, all of that over and.

Like clockwork, yeah, okay, yeah, everything.

It must have been hard there to start stop so many relationships that takes a toll on you too, and it kind of makes it sort of concrete that this is just how it is.

Well, I don't know, so this is what it was. I could tell my body that when it was a nice guy, I was disgusted by them. Discussed literally so discussed, which just shows you how much I really loved myself, which was not a lot. Right, So because I didn't know that, I didn't know that, it was very foreign to me. The only thing that felt like home was these abusive whether it be emotionally being gas lit, and that's what I was attracting, and that's what got me going.

Okay, so let's go back a little too to what was happening then. Yeah, when the abuse was happening in the relationship, I didn't like.

The physical abuses. Okay, I just want to be clear with anyone listening. Obviously it's not something that I wanted.

No, no, no, no no. But when let's use the emotional abuse, because that's what's so common narcissistic relationships. When the emotionally abusive moments were happening, which I'm guessing were things like dismissiveness and criticism and mom jealousy and validation, jealousy, control, manipulation, gas, Like, yes, what was the story you were telling yourself at those times?

Oh my god, I don't think I was even aware back then. I don't think I was having that dialogue.

So it was almost like this is just a relationship.

I mean, I watched Pretty Woman when I was too young, obviously, but my nanny, who didn't speak English, she watched three movies. Well Dynasty wasn't a movie, but Dynasty, and I was watching this with her Pretty Woman and sound of Music. Sound of Music's more like it, but at like between ages three and six, like I shouldn't be trying to look like Julia Roberts, like an undressed like a hooker,

Pretty woman is not okay. And that's maybe one day we'll do an episode on all the reasons pretty Woman is not okay.

I seriously though, I still love it, but it's not okay at that age.

Right, right, I don't know that it's okay at any age really to actually, you know, I mean when you really think about it, right, I think they tried to make it that what was the feminist line? Like one day the prince rescued her, but she rescued him first. I'm like, oh no, honey, it's too late for that line. I think we have just we have done too many problematic things. You are not cleaning this film up with

There was so many emotions going through my body from anger, resentment. I wanted to reach through the VHS tape the TV screw of my laptop and just be like shake everybody, like what don't you see it? This was an interesting thing. I don't know if I recommend it, because if you do do this, I have somebody with you that you trust. Because it was very It was like reliving it, but then it was healing mm hmmm, all at the same time.

Well, I think it can be, because I think that these things can be. You can see it, you can understand what the influences where you could understand. You were too young to see it. You didn't make sense of that kind of a storyline, how it gets confused in a child's mind. So now you're going through this sort of series of bad relationships. They're beginning and they're ending. When these relationships would end, who was ending them there?

Well, there's lots of ending and coming back together because I loved the reuniting.

So sometimes it would be the same guy for a back.

And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Especially this high school one. It was like and I mean to the point where he was like stalking me and I was like, uh, but I always had somebody ready for me to pick up the pieces, you know what I mean. Gale from relationship, I'm not kidding. I went from relationship to relationship. So I went from like this high school boyfriend straight to

So the relationships became a place of soothing. They became right that you know, more of the numbing that you have no matter what, because you didn't have to simply be with yourself, right, That's what there from doing that, so I have a very full picture here. Okay, the relationships continue in this cycle. Stop, start, they come, they go, chaos, abuse, gas lighting. You're not seeing it. There's no part of you saying what am I doing? Okay? And that's very common, Yeah,

Well, the worst was like those silent treatments. Oh my god, that would kill me to the point where I actually it was interesting those like depending on how long the silent treatment went on, like if it was from my dance partner, who like I was there in New York with then moved from the barrier to New York, and I remember I never forget, like over Thanksgiving it was like he was gaslighting me and he wouldn't talk to me and didn't talk to me for like a week,

Because that was an abandonment.

Oh of course that was what my dad did.

It was the loss of engaging.

Yeah, I felt so alone. Yeah, I felt very I felt abandoned, period, point blank. Yeah.

You know, the silent treatment is it's a common gambit in narcissistic relationships, especially once they realize it works. Right, It's very passive, aggressive, And what I'm about to say is going to sound very cynical even, I mean, it's just even I'm surprised by the cynical. But they get a lot of bang for their buck on them, right, for no effort. And once they learn it works, they're going to keep doing it right because they're.

Like, oh, meaning like I'm effected.

You're getting a rise out of the other person's does that make sense?

Yes? And control them. Yeah.

And now the silent treatment isn't punitive for everyone, but for most anyone who has even a secure attachment, it's uncomfortable. But if you have an anxious attachment, it is like flaying a person alive. Yeah, because it's the ultimate. It's worse than abandonment because it is true abandonment. They're not communicating with you, They've not used to exist, right, that's the ultimate fear.

Vers is when you're working with the person too, and then you're living in like a little box in Harlem and the only door separating the two of you is a bathroom door. And then wow, it was powerful and it got me every time, like I felt paralyzed. I don't think I've ever felt that much. I think pain or paralyzation since that time.

Being stuck, being frozen, can't That actually is a sympathetic nervous system response. Right when we think of how you know the sympathetic nervous system is an animal, any mammal, it's in a human being, and it's fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Those are the four.

Eraphist that I'm addicted that I only know those feelings so still to this day.

Well, it's a response when you think something catastrophics happening, right, not right or not. But see, the thing is the silent treatment. When we think about the sympathetic nervous system, it's the same reason why a zebra is able to run away from a lion. Right, everything gets mobilized, All systems shut down except the system that are going to make that zebra's legs move as fast as can be

Amen, sister, Amen, That's what it is.

And to wear and tear. It's not as simple as like I'll just keep fight, fighting and freezing. No no, no, no, no, you don't want there's an opportunity to cause there.

So is there a way now to get a little deeper on this? Is there a way to be addicted to it?

To those responses? I don't know that you were addicted to the sympathetic.

Response, like I only know that.

I always use the word addiction very carefully when it comes to sort of these relational cycles, because it turns the person being harmed into an active actor participants.

Does that make sense?

And and so I always steer away from that because I think that languaging has been used to use a disease model to capture a person who's going through psychological manipulation. So that's but it's also not putting survivors in a

No, it's not right, yeah, no, totally.

It does.

It helps with feeling more compassionate towards myself.

So you said you haven't been in a relationship for a year and a half, Well, yes, divorce, okay's been single. So you got married. May I ask how long you were married? For?

Two years?

Two years? Okay? And how long were you together before the marriage?

So we were together in the beginning when I first moved to LA I would say two thousand and seven, for a couple of years, broke up for ten years, reunited for a year and a half, got married.

Okay, all right, so it was on and out relationship and then you got married.

Yeah.

Did you also find yourself repeating some of your same patterns in this relationship?

Okay, I'm not saying anything about that person, but yes, what you're asking about the similar patterns. Yes, absolutely, for sure. They looked very.

Much alike your father and this person.

So, I mean he would agree to if you heard this.

So, so you have not had a relationship with an adult man, an intimate romantic relationship with an adult man that was ever healthy at this point. No, no, okay, all right, So do you have hope that you can yes, about to get myself healthy. Okay, yeah, got it all right. So it's not as though you've ruled that out, because Cheryl, there's people in your position will sometimes say I'm out, I fold, this is not my game, and then I'm not doing it. I'm going to be alone forever.

Oh well, I can only live right now, right like I don't. I can't tell the future. However, I love to get married again, but less this is another thing. I have to work on it therapy. I go from like zero to a thousand, So of course I still believe in it. I mean, I don't know if I know the definition of a perfect relationship is, but I know that I will continue the pattern if I don't change myself.

So let me ask you this, what do you think a healthy relationship looks like two individuals?

That's very important because I thought that, uh, we were one here. Notebook doesn't help, so they should take that off the fucking sorry excuse me.

Oh no, you can say, talk away the notebook. You mean the movie?

The movie needs to go away? All these movies about love.

We can need movies?

Or is it dysfunctional? I think dysfunction is normal.

So he was really stocky in the beginning of the relationship the notebook, Yeah, I heard that. You think like he jumped, he climbed up the ferris wheel, you see. Like I was like boundary violation. She's she's saying no.

No, yes. I was like, why does that happen to me? No?

No, no, Stocky, Stocky, Stocky, And they've romanticized, and like, I'm going to keep coming by, and I'm going to keep coming by, and you're about to braise someone else. I'm going to keep coming about to watch it again by keep coming by. I really should have healthy movie night.

No, really, you should do like a.

Screening and we'll come together and say, can we talk about why that was not helping?

No, that was so attachment avoided attachment and psychopathic personality traits, Like, that's definitely what you should do.

Well, I think what happens is it's an ends justify the means kind of thing, like oh, they were old together and they had the kids and they had this and then you know whatever, the health and the shower of sex and the swans and the water, But ahead of all of that was the stocky fair behavior. Right, she had a terrible mother.

That's what I seriously I mean, it would get me every time that stockery behavior, like.

Okay, so that was a note just no stalking. Some clims of Ferris Wale don't date that.

It actually reminds me of how I basically in a weird way, the stocking from my ex was actually enticing.

Okay, so it's good. And here's the thing. I think it's so important you say that out loud, righty, because there's absolutely no shame in saying that, because you're saying, like, this was love, that was your definition of love, because you know what it was. It was unmistakable, right. So it's like a volume button. If something's that volume ninety, you're gonna hear it, right, whereas anything more subtle that

I'm not My love language is not gifts, but it's definitely.

You know what I mean, the intensities that the flowers the night out gotten me every time. Yep. And so somebody said, well, is there ever healthy love bombing? And I mean, if you could find a person in text who is nice, kind, respectful, all that disgusting stuff, right right, and don't love that bombing you tend they tend not to go together. Like a healthier person is going to have a little bit more of a like trust pace, right.

Two individuals. Okay, Trust for me is accountability. I've realized this recently that I can even have friends who don't hold themselves accountable. It's great, okay, supporting each other obviously as someone who is not jealous in that sense of your career or success, very secure attachment would be great. Wanting to evolve constantly, learn, grow, and patience and kind. Cute would help. I'm kidding, that's fine. And successful their

Great, Great, I.

Mean I can go on all day.

These are the things that make a healthy relationship. Two individuals, and by that I understand what you mean. Not two people are so and men, not like one. Yeah, so two people. There's a sense of separateness, but you know.

All in like, there's no forty fifty in my eyes.

Right, trust, there's trust, there's accountability. If the two people support each other, there's a sense of safety, growth, orientation, patient kind that you find them cute, these are things that describe a healthy person. Some of this could asking about relationship. What makes a healthy relationships?

I think really though, for me, I think just because I only can talk based off my experience. But it is allowing for the other person to be their own person. Okay, right, that is a big thing for mer. I tend to get very consumed.

Got it. Okay, so I got that.

It's a person or a job. Right? Communication? Key?

What does communication mean to you?

Well? Responsive communication would help, meaning like, I'm also this weird, not weird. I'm very like to the second, you know, with time and so when someone says they're going to be there and they're not there at that time, with no phone call saying that they're going to be late, it really urks me. So then my brain starts to think, oh my god, they're cheating. Oh my god, like I fall down this rabbit hole.

Oh so it's shit, which could and it's interesting you go there because you could take it. It's like they're they're actually not respectful of a standard that I put out. Oh no, no, no, no, which is what they're doing. And that is enough for it to be a problem. Yes, right, that's enough for it to be a problem. Okay, so I'm hearing so far that you've got here. Now we're going to talk about a fancy word, but it's a good fancy word. There's a term out there called inter subjectivity.

Right.

So that's kind of the opposite of gaslighting. Right. So simplest example, you go out to dinner with somebody and he says this was absolutely terrible, and you're like, oh my gosh, this was the best lasagna I've ever had.

Two different things, right, yes, yes.

And you don't say to him, so you're wrong, there's no way you're positive, or he couldn't turn to say there's no way your lasagna was good because my meal was bad. That would be in a great example of their intersubjective. It's an overly simple example, but it's that capacity to do that that's a core pillar here. And what you're talking about also though, is respecting boundaries and expecting boundaries.

And also I think transparency it is very important.

Okay, yeah, right, and that goes back to the trustingnibilities and so. But a lot of the stuff you're laying out here, interestingly, Cheryl, is very much related to stuff like trust boundaries.

I think it's my number one right.

It's understandable because that's all going back to that secure base kind of stuff.

Okay.

Safety is everything to people who've been through trauma.

Not to everybody.

I think that for everybody in general, they already have that internalized sense of it, so they sort of feel that.

They expect that that is.

There's a risk in that too, though, because you know, if something terrible happens to them, they may go through the world as though it's a little bit safer. I'll put it this way to you. I am a trauma survivor too, not nearly at the level you have, but definitely a trauma survivor, and I definitely go through work a little bit like military. You know, yes, hypervigilance, supervigilant.

No, it's never it's not a good I mean, if you're a label.

It's not good.

I am so, and I don't. I think the ballroom community the competitive because we dance all in the dance floor together. So my hypervigilance is quite scary.

What you mean by scary because that to me, it's a normal trauma response.

But I'm too vigilant to where like it's hard for me and I don't know if there's such a thing, but like I am too aware of my well.

It's exhausting. Paranoia almost well, I think that it's exhausting if it's paranoia, if you think it's resulting in people coming at you or harming you, I used to Okay, so that's come down a little bit a lot of it. Then it's the idea is that, But hypervigilance is exhausting. It is so right you almost want to view it as when you have too many apps and stuff open on your phone, your phone's running slow. That's what hypervigilance does.

And since my sobriety it's been even stronger.

My conversation will continue after this break, so that talk about your journey of sobriety, because you had talked about how you are sober. So around twenty one year, I did first drink, and then what happened.

And then I used it. When I first started drinking, it was mainly to calm my anxiety down from paparazzi. It was pretty bad when I first came here in two thousand and six. My dance partner, just to give you some perspective, here was Nicko Lachet's little brother, Drew Liche. This is during the height of him and Jessica Simpson's course.

So you didn't have impairments at work. It's not like you miss rehearsals or never shows or anything like that. Okay, So, but it was the drinking got out of control.

It got out of control to the point where I was drinking seven days a week. Now, it never when people ask me what my rock bottom is, It's almost like my rock bottom was the fact that I was at my height of success when I was drinking, and that I never really my rock bottom if you were to think about it now for me, at least as a sober person trying to stay sober one day at

Right, right, So do you got sober on your own? You did twell step, Yes, I'm still. I'm still very much. I do have a sponsor. And to say it's not a battle it would be a lie. But I quit basically for vanity reasons, because I started as soon as my dad died. I came home, had a drink and I just I busted out into hives. And this was right before my engagement party. And so I decided to stop because of vanity reasons. Okay, well any important storm,

Yeah, and I didn't know how to feel it.

So now you have to cope without the alcohol. You've taken one form of numbing away, but you've acknowledged that another form of numbing is the You've also taken two forms of numbing away, the chaotic relationships and the men and the alcohol. You've now turned to work. Yeah, and you know and that you know or staying busy. That can be a tricky pattern. But now you've been single for a year and a half.

You know.

I tell people that people who are coming out of narcissistic relationship, and in you, your case has been a series of many narcissistic relationships, right is that I tell them? I tell me you got to do doctor Romney's twelve month detalks. And by that, I mean you got to spend a year. Can it be more all alone? It can be absolutely more than twelve months. And people say, what are you about? What's the twelve months of it all?

Happen in a year. It is more than a year.

And I think more than a year is into bad thing. But a minimum of year. And people are saying, are you kidding me? A year? And I said I know that too.

I was like, if you told me this years ago, I'd be like, I'm not talking to you.

No, And a lot of people have said that, like saying no sex, no touch. I'm like, yep, and you will. I mean, even if it's a way of finding self, embrace whatever that looks like to you. But that coming back to yourself because healing from narcissistic abuse, the narcissistic relationships, the key pillar of that is coming into yourself, allowing yourself to be an individual outside of the shadows of normal.

I'm not even interested.

Good like I don't because that's great.

Is it sixty years then since I've dated maybe it's a total of six to seven narcissism.

Yeah, no, no, you might. You might need longer than you my dear, after all, I'm therapist, But it's it's a coming back into oneself. And I don't believe a person can go on that journey with somebody else. Right, I say to people, you don't even know what thermostat setting you like, because it was always what they wanted. Right, You don't know, you don't know a favorite color, I don't know anything. So you need to go out there and have all that. What pizza toppings do you like?

You know what's actually I'm the part of myself. I can answer all your questions.

See that's great. And a lot of folks will say they'll struggle, they'll say, I know what that is, but well, and they'll recognize they're still using the narcissistic person as a frame of reference. So that's really what coming out of it is.

Like I said, we could just do a ten parter to this. This could be a whole season.

Just Cheryl and doctor Romeny. Great, I'll do that.

Yeah, that's great, exactly, super No, But this is all very helpful. I love I just love this all. I love it. Though it's hard to hear sometimes, but it just helps.

What was the hardest thing you learned about narcissistic relationships that you had to take in that was necessary for you to push through your healing.

I think what was hard for me, first of all was to wrap my head around the fact that I was only attracted to them. However, it helps to continue to educate myself by, for example, listening to your podcast and doing more research, and it helps to then find the compassion because when you really hear repeatedly over and over again that it has something to do with the survivor, you can breathe. It takes a load off.

Yeah, and I'm actually going to push back on this idea. You say, well, I've always been attracted to narcissists. I don't actually think that's true. I think that that was my true. You were attempting to work through a pattern. Right, If you're to bring people down to some brass tacks, especially trauma survivors, it's the seeking not only of safety, but of attachment and of love and of connection. Right.

Good, Yeah, And that's what I would hold on to, right.

And you'd hold on to that and then into huge narratives. Can that's why the make up and break up with some right obviously, then you got to have it all again and have it all again. And so I think that this idea of the narcissistic person is having horns and a forked tail and all of that is nonsense. These are incredibly charming, charismatic, fun interesting period is definitely yeah.

Right, And is it because you're avoiding to see it or you.

Just don't see it's not safe to see it. It means you're not going to be able to maintain attachment, connection and love, like you'll lose something too important. Right, You've had to learn to do that since you were so small, Right, seeing that having sex through a door, having been abused, and in fact, interestingly in that case, you were willing to acknowledge what it was, which was

You just like being blind, being literally what she calls.

Betrayal blind, that's how she calls it, but.

She refers to it as it away, but like protecting.

Those betrayals, like okay, yeah, we're good, we're good, right. The problem is is that we're good, it's not really because this it's all piling up, and as it piles up, you're feeling anxious, you're feeling sad, you're feeling a sense of despair, you're drinking, you're feeling worthless. So all this unhealthy stuff is coming up behind it, but you keep having that not acknowledging, not acknowledging, not acknowledg JA And then one day you acknowledge in each of those relationships.

And you can't see it, yes, right, yeah.

And then you can see it.

No, And but it was interesting the very first physical abusive relationship was pretty bad that and then it was interesting how I was blind to seeing like the welts on my legs and that's it.

You know, I'm not acknowledged, I'm not processing it.

But now I'm so sensitive to any type of emotional abuse and let alone, wouldn't they person wouldn't even dare to touch me. But I maybe it's an overreaction, but I don't think it is. It's just, you know, for me, it's a boundary that you just don't cross, and that's great, and whether whatever, and right away it's a red flag. So then I leave like it's just like you're done in two seconds.

So the last few questions, Sure, okay, you've worked on your mental health, you've worked through a lot of your trauma, you're maintaining sobriety. How is all of that going for you, especially in light of your you've gone through some major relationship changes and you know, and leaving Dancing with the Stars, these are two big changes for you. Yes, okay, So how do you balance you know, all of the healing against these two major transitions.

I don't think it's separate, Okay, I think that the reason why I did leave both situations you just mentioned is because of the fact that I'm healing, and I think that it works hand in hand. Yes it does, but it's scary as shit. And I'm not going to say that my sobriety has been easy and that I'm healed, because it's it's going to be a lifelong battle and amazingness sometimes and not so amazing sometimes, and I just my job is just to take this life one day at a time.

Well, it is a lifelong battle, and I think that that's the reality of it, that there will be those dark knights of the city. It's not a battle, I guess because the journey, it's a process.

It is and it's like it's heaviest shit and it's exhausting, But there's more days of not feeling like that than if I were just a wing it.

Yeah life, Yeah, that's great, I mean, and that's progress. And now what I hear that's so promising is that you acknowledge what happened. Right, if we talk to you like you said nine years ago, you wouldn't even have been like what and.

And they've been defensive about everything right.

And then, and that just simply means you weren't in that moment of readiness, just like you had with your therapist, she'd bring it up. You're like, no, thank you, And for any of us who are therapist like, okay, not. I think there's certain things I'm still not ready to talk about and you'll likely right. You know, you'll get there. So how do you feel about getting into a new relationship? Not not okay. So that's me, myself and my friends, and you're dark. I love that, okay, and.

I am just currently. Look, there's moments of feeling lonely, but I'm more alone than lonely. I'm not lonely. That's a big I actually crave being alone now, and I guess I'm not for small talk anymore. Like there's a lot of things that I'm learning about myself becomes a very small, tiny little group of people. Great. Since I got sober, my whole everything's changed. But also as hard as I have been curious to work, a lot's changed.

Which is great because I think that what you're saying, though, is that you're able to in being alone you feel safe, and that's.

A big feeling.

Yes, right, and there was a time when you didn't feel sw when you were alone. That's a huge sort of a transitional Yeah, you know, so you're right, which is really really great. You're also talking about discernment. You have a small group of friends. That is about discernment that not anyone can get through the gate. Yeah, and that's a big deal for survivors.

Right, boundaries in general.

Yes, boundaries jail. But say that again. You said you're proud of yourself.

No, I am really proud of myself. I love myself like I actually do. And the more I continue to make these decisions, whether they be big, smaller, or however you want to measure it, it's it had to be done in order for me to continue on this path of healing. Because if I continued in any type of relationship or workplace with feeling like I'm not being respected or treated the way I should be, I'm leaving.

Which is again we're back to discernment, which is a huge part of healing from these relationships. And I have to say, listen, nobody else can do sixth grade for you. Right, you got to go through the pain of all of algebra and whatever you've got to do in sixth grade. It's the same thing with this. I think that when a person can get through this, they can see it. They have the supports, they have therapy, they have friends,

Yeah, it's gonna be you're falling. Your story is.

Amazing because you've been through it and you are so self reflective on what happened and how it happened and even the parts of it that were enticing, and you own it and you know you've come to this place. I don't think you could come to this place without in some ways sat walking through some of these steps.

And this is actually a really big deal. I don't cry, but like I'm trying just to feel and so thank you.

It's amazing. You don't know how many people need to hear this, because it's really it's it's remarkable when I hear someone come all the way you came.

So thank you for everything you do.

Well, I'm so happy, op I think I'll touch more cynical than darling Oprah, but I think that you know what, we need a cynical Oprah in that's the world order.

I mean, Asian.

We got it. And you know what, there's more people in Asia than anywhere else, so we've got the viewers. That's what I'm your sister, and you are too, and I can't dance a step, so maybe one day you can teach me. I will, that's right, and then I can keep teaching you about as free sessions.

We're good tea any day.

Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Cheryl. First, people often think that finding love is the ultimate sign of success and healing. However, for many people, it actually may be a period of solitude. Cheryl's story shows us that getting to know who you are outside of a relationship is the true summit of healing. Your process might not look like everyone else's, and that's okay. In our