Some life and career transitions feel more like starting over then switching gears. Welcome to navigate everyone. I'm Tim Austin and this is the podcast designed to take the guesswork out of transition. Whether you have a transition looming in your future, or you're trying to make sense out of a past or current transition, this shows for you. In each episode, we introduced strategies and tools that individuals and teams can use to effectively navigate seasons of change, and navigate.
It's all about leveraging the challenges of change for optimal growth. Today, we'll be having a conversation about starting over some transitions feel more like starting over than others. And we'll be talking about why that is and how the seasons can be fertile ground for both personal and professional growth. Joining me today is a guy I first met in Central Asia while I was doing a series of workshops there a
couple years ago. John Heaton is an author who writes under his name Jay Heaton, having lived and worked overseas for about 10 years with his family. John now lives and writes action adventure thrillers in Illinois, along with his riding companion, a dog named ginger. So let's talk about starting over with John Heaton. Hi, John, thanks so much for joining me today.
Hi, Tim. Glad to be here.
Well, I'm really glad we were able to connect today in this in this conversation. When we first met a couple years back in Central Asia of all places, you you were planning ahead, you and your family, were planning ahead for some some big changes. And when we talked, I got the feeling that you want it to be very intentional about processing, planning, and implementing a successful transition for you and your family. So tell me, kind of just tell me how, what brought that about?
Yeah. So before we had met, our family had already gone through a few transitions. And we went through a big one a few years before that, that was unplanned, and it was forced on us. And we watched, we watched a lot of other friends go through similar types of transitions. And my wife and I, we realized that, you know, at some point in the future, we're probably going to go through another big transition, whether we, whether
we plan it or not. And then I think, I don't know how close it was, to maybe the first time I met you, but there's a lot of there's a lot of complicated and interrelating factors that would, you know, take a lot of a long time to explain, but it really led us towards choosing and planning ahead to make a transition. But I was worried about it. There was definitely some some fear involved. And you know, I, you know, I imagine thought about what other people would think, if we made the
change. But when we when it came down to it, and we decided to to make the change. We had seen enough people go through a lot of changes, we felt like, wow, this is really important that we do it well, and prepare and plan not only for our sake, but also for our kids, because it was getting older at that point as well. Okay.
Yeah. So you kind of had a taste of, you know, some a forced transition in your past and seeing some of that, and, and also observing others as they had gone through transition seasons. You mentioned dealing with some of the concerns, even some of the fears around that what to expect and certainly, I think when we Yeah, when we, when we experienced force transitions, there's always that kind of in the back of our mind when it's a difficult season. Yeah, why don't want to go through that.
Again, I don't want to I don't want to do it this way. Again, if I have any say whatsoever in this situation, this is kind of how I want to be intentional around that. And so you did have the gift. In this most current transition, you did have the gift of being more intentional. Planning ahead a little bit more I understand. Yeah, so. So you
mentioned your kids. So maybe just kind of start with that too, because we you know, as we've walked in journeyed with with other expat families who are serving who have Served overseas or just just are making big transitions, there's often a concern for children and how they're going to do, especially when our children are at certain ages. And we're just concerned, should we make this transition? Is it best for the kids? Should we wait? Yeah. You mentioned fears again, what maybe some
fears around that. What were what were some of you guys's biggest concerns around that?
Yeah, well, for our kids, when we first went overseas, we had one child, and he was 10 months old, wasn't even one year old yet. Okay. And then, by the time we were transitioning, to come back to America, we had four children. And I think the oldest one was 10 years old. Okay. So you know, when you only when you only have kids that are very young, right, you're happy and content to go wherever Do you ever because
they're with mom and dad. But when we are looking at making this transition to America, you know, we were taking our kids away from a school that they'd loved. We're taking them away from pretty much the only home they remembered. I mean, they certainly had visited America, and new grandparents and cousins and, and love that. But for them that wasn't home. And so, so taking your young kids out of school and a group of friends, that has been all that they know, and that they really like
it. That that was kind of a big concern of ours. And that that was why we wanted to try to do all that we could to make the transition back to America. as smooth and as as good as possible, because we realized we were taking our kids away from in a sense, you know, from the home the only home that they had known.
Right? And li e you said, when you see your ids doing well and thriving nd in a place, but you're ou're you don't want to upse that delicate balance, ight. You know, you're like, this is good. Should we do this? And how should we do this? But for you, it was more of a d cision to the more of the questi n was, how should we do this? How can we be intentional about his? How can we set this up for success is kind of what I'm h aring you saying?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because we felt like as a transition we, we had to make and although we knew it was gonna be hard. Regardless, it was it was one we were going to have to make, and yeah, we're gonna have to walk our kids through that. transition.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Right. So you now you're now you're on the other side of your transition still, I'm assuming in some aspects of your transition are still still current and happen? Yes. Yeah. But you're on the other side. And how long has that been? When did you actually how long have you been back in the States? Um, I think it's been about nine, almost 10 months now. Okay. So not even a year. So it's still pretty, pretty, pretty fresh. And yeah, okay. Yeah. All right
now. Why? talking, talking about going back to starting over kinds of kinds of transitions? Why might your particular transition look and feel more like starting over than those previous transitions? You navigated?
Yeah. Well, I mean, one thing is the kids, um, it's a different factor now. But also, I think, for me, it for me, it was a big professional change mine. My role and professional work overseas, changed several times. And we tweaked it several times. Okay. And, and that just wasn't that just wasn't working out. And, and one of the reasons, one of the reasons we made the decision to make a change and go through this transition was the
professional piece for me. And so, okay, I'm going to be starting a new career, a new profession, but we didn't we didn't know exactly what that was. And I think it might have been my wife actually, who, who suggested that I pursue writing big Cuz like I said, we've watched a lot of friends go through transition. And we just observed when seeing people move back to America, it usually took about a year for them to kind of figure things out in terms of
job, and money. And so we felt like, you know, it's probably gonna take us about a year to figure out professionally, career eyes money wise, what is this going to look like? Yeah, so my wife said, well, John, why don't you just, you know, focus on your writing for that first year? So you were already writing at that point? Yeah. I mean, it was more of a hobby. And it's kind of those things.
If, you know, if you do it slowly and consistently, you know, eventually you have some stuff, you have stuff run, right. And so. So that kind of that kind of became the crazy dream of, Okay, let's move back to America. And I'm not certain long term what my next profession is going to be, but I'm going to give writing a shot. You know, that's the big dream. And that's Yeah, you know, honestly, it's, it's a long shot. It seems a little bit crazy when you say it out loud.
So it's, in a sense, it's starting starting fresh, for sure.
It's sure is John and, and I love what you say about it sounds, you know, things kind of Deuce can sound crazy when we say it out loud. But that's that's the first kind of one of the first steps of moving forward, isn't it when we actually say it out loud. And we start telling our story. And I think I think there's something about that, that really brings about a resolve an internal resolve to pursue that, even though there's so many unknowns
out there. But there's just that internal resolve that kind of gets strengthened and bolstered when we start telling our stories saying it out loud, like you said, Yeah, so how has that been? For you? How have you know, you've been back for about nine or 10 months? And and for pursuing that big professional shift in terms of your career, vocational focus. How has that been so far? For you?
Yeah, I, I've, I've been working hard at it. And it's one of those long term things that yeah, it can make money but not, not right away. Not fast. Right. So there's definitely some patience
involved. Yeah. But also, we've been very, we've been very aware of the fact that yes, I'm pursuing writing, but I'm not going to allow that to consume me for 80 hours a week, you know, you know, because our priority was going to be focusing on our kids a lot, and just kind of allowing space and time for my wife and I to be able to talk things through and process things. emotionally. So the the working on the writing has been a good learning process, I've been able to work
at it. Yeah, but I've also because we've had this plan in place. So I haven't allowed it to, you know, totally consumed me, and take over all of my time in in, you know, in an effort to speed up the process, in hopes that it will make money faster. But having said that there, you know, certain fears arise, and like, oh, wow, I have put so many months into this creative endeavor, which, like I said, it sounds crazy. I mean, how many people do you know who say they want to write a book? Well, lots
of them. But you know what? Probably almost none of them are making a living doing it. So so so then it's like, okay, I've been working at this, you know, consistently for months. And you know, what if we get to the end of our first year of transition, and it was an abysmal failure, you know, how am I going to feel then?
So dealing with some of those what ifs, and yeah, what if questions?
Yeah, dealing ith what ifs? You know, I re ember when we were when we wer trying to make our decision w ether or not we should transitio because it was a complicated d cision. And there were a lot of great things about where we were overseas. You know, it was no an easy decision. You know, like I met like I mentioned, o r our kids really liked it the e. Yeah. I worked with a lot o great guys, and I really miss w rking with some of those guys,
right? Um, but there were some things professionally and y Roll and other things that w re language related, that it ju t, it just wasn't working out. And as I kind of wrestled th ough those things, I remember oming to the point of thinking l ke, Oh, well, you know, at east at least I don't have o worry about money. You kn w, I, I kind of know how I'm goi g to support my family. But if I make this transition, you kno , I don't know exactly how I' going to provide for my fami y.
And making money. But I could, I could sit back. And I could imagine, you know, if I was talking to somebody like me, like, if I put myself in stimulus shoes, and I was listening to them talking, you know, even like, Hey, you know, you can stick it out for a little bit, because you feel comfortable with the paycheck. But, you know, that's got to change. Yeah, yeah. Eventually, that has to change. Yeah. And so, you know, put myself in
somebody else's shoes. And now I still remind myself of that now of, hey, know that, that that was a good solid decision that we made. And yeah, it can seem a little bit crazy. investing so much in this creative dream. You know, but it was a solid decision that we made. Yeah, yeah. We're moving forward with it. And, you know, I can be afraid of what if it fails? You know, but so if it does fail, yeah, I've, I've gained a lot of great skills, and experiences.
And it's possible, it might not totally fail, you know, there is that right possibility. Yeah,
yeah. And you Yeah, and you, you have been able to pursue this because you as a family, you with your wife, have agreed to give this some time, from what I understand some time to see how it unfolds. It's not like, you know, you've made this decision in isolation. And so you have, you know, you have the support behind you have your family, which is number one, and you have the leading of
God in your life. You know, and so, I, I feel like, you know, when you talk about that, the big dreams that we have, and doing the things we're passionate about and love to do. Like you said, whether that works into full time or goes back to or remains a hobby, it's still doing something you love, and you're learning a lot, and you're growing a lot through it. And it's a it's still in, it's still in motion, right? This The
story is still unfolding. And this adventure, that you're on this crazy dream that you're pursuing, all of that is still Yeah, it's part of the it's part of the story that your, your, your that you're going to have, you know, and be able to share with others and, and be able to share with your family, you know, so there's a lot of things that that are really, I just yeah, I feel like super, super encouraging to hear how someone transitions, not just into a, you know, a comfortable role,
but your transition, making a big transition into a lot of unknowns. But you're you're willing to put up with a lot of those unknowns and to deal with some of that, because you have you have a desire and a passion and, and a motivation in this one area. Yeah. So, you know, there's always that degree of risk isn't there, sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's lower, but a degree of risk can go hand in hand with seasons of starting over. So, can you comment on
that a little bit? John, how has risk been a factor in your transition?
Yeah, I mean, as a, as a husband and a father, you know, I feel like the provider for my family, and, you know, kind of how I mentioned, when I was in my previous role, I felt like Well, hey, at least like I kind of know, we know where the money's come where the money comes from. Yeah. I felt like make them transition was was a huge risk. And, and a lot of that centered around the money and the question of how how would I provide for my family.
But you know, I mean, in a lot of cases, you know, in the, in the middle of transition, it might not feel like it but a lot of times the risk is not as bad as you as you, you it might be. And I think, I think you also have to be aware that, you know, sometimes the risk of not making a transition out of fear or worries can be really huge. You know? Yeah. I don't, you know, as humans, I don't think we're very good at assessing risk,
truly. And we can be blind to risk, you know, the risk of not making a change and going through a transition. Mm hmm.
So kind of st is staying in a comfortable role, simply because it's comfortable, and even airy, and even though you may not be doing what you love, and really, there's no prospects for a real future in that, you're saying that there's, there's a lot of people out there, and they can be in any profession, any ministry, vocation, you name it, there's a lot of a lot of us out there who who struggle with this, don't they? Don't we, you know, this, this whole risk assessment
piece. And, you know, I always kind of go back to, whenever you see, whenever you see God calling people to do something, to pursue something in the scriptures. You know, there's always some degree of risk, usually a big degree of risk, you know, and, and so, certainly this risk can go goes hand in hand with with starting over doing something different and and I'm sure you've, you know, as you talk, you're you've you've dealt with some of these, some of these questions are the
rewards. This is my next question, then how are the rewards worth it? How, how have the rewards been worth it thus far for you?
Yeah. I think one thing for me that, that makes it worth it is, you know, within the last few months, I've been, I've been tempted to kind of throw aside my creative writing, and, hey, let's just let's just find some other jobs. Some other words, that I mean, there's easier faster ways to make some money. Right. I mean, emphasize I'm, my writing will probably fail anyways. So these are the questions. These are the tempted, I've Yeah, I've been
tempted to go that route. Yeah. But I realized I, you know, I would never know, like, what if I gave it a shot? Like I have this time? Yeah, you know, to give that creative dream, a shot. And regardless of how it works out, you know, I can live without regrets. I can know that. Yeah, I gave it a shot. It didn't work out and move on. Or I gave it a shot, and it worked out great. And move on. You know. I feel like people just, you know, live with regrets that
they they don't have to. Yeah, because they're, you know, I don't know, afraid or worried to go through transition and make a change.
Yeah. And the r wards. So can I kind of hear ou saying the rewards are, are s me of those rewards are just hat internal peace of, of, of fu fillment and satisfaction and j st kind of the reward of knowi g that you've pursued this you f llowed that dream you've you'v you've stepped out into the u known into the uncom ortable and you are now in good ompany with a lot of faith ul God followers who have done
he same thing. And I think when e get when that when the story is all told, and we get, and w , you know, we look back or ou life is kind of played out i front of us. I just, I just on't feel we're going to regre those times when we were in wh n we've when we've really stepp d out like this and done somet ing like you're doing pursu ng a dream.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree it. And I think kind of on the opposite side, it's very easy to look back and regret. Oh, why didn't I try that? Why don't I give that a shot? Why was I afraid of that? Why? Why was I worried about that? So true. Yeah. So just just to you know, live without those type of regrets is, is a is an awesome reward.
Yeah. Yeah, that in itself. Yep, that's for sure. Well, as we kind of wrap up our conversation today, John, what would you say to a listener today who might be facing a big ministry or career shift? And is feeling lost in that fog of uncertainty and possibly struggling with some of the fears that we talked about today?
Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, I think we can pretty clearly say that everybody is going to make a big shift at some point, right? I mean, you might choose it, it might be the rug pulled out from under you. But, you know, it's, it's gonna happen. So, you know, if, if you're not in that right now, you know, build your support networks now. So that you can, you know, rely on them in the future, you know, have a have a group of closest friends and advisors that you can share
anything with. You know, I know, you know, a lot of personal finance advisors say that you should have an emergency fund. I think that's vital for, you know, going through a lot of transitions is having some financial flexibility. You know, but if you're in the midst of it, don't be afraid to slow down, step back, talk with people close to you. I know, you can feel pressured to move fast and make fast decisions. But a lot of times, you don't really have to, even if you might feel
that way. Okay. Are you willing to receive feedback from other people? Are your fears completely overblown and irrational, that that could be the case. But then, you know, lastly, for a lot of people, I remember, you shared this with me a while ago, and it really stuck with me that when you're going through transitions, created creativity can really flourish. And that really grabbed me, because I was thinking of focusing on my
writing. And I've I found that to be true that, you know, look for opportunities for your creativity to flourish, you know, the uncertainty that comes with transition, can bring a great gift, you know, kind of when you get knocked out of your routine, and you're right, you know, new ideas, yeah, come alive. And you know, maybe they'll express themselves in your hobbies, or maybe they'll express them themselves in your art. But that could be a really
exciting thing to see. You know, regardless of what your creative endeavor is.
That's good. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, take advantage of leverage that creativity that is that can be part of a transition transition season, whether that's creative ideas, and thoughts that come from others from from the Lord from our, just from our own processing times. Super, super good advice. Really, it really
can. Transition seasons can be a real, real creative season, as we step out and into new territory, and actually, maybe depend on we're, I think there's something there that has to do with dependence because when we step out into these new and unknown areas of our lives, there's a dependence piece, right. We depend on create creative thoughts and ideas moving forward. We need that before we didn't so much, maybe,
but now we do. And so that opens up a great, great opportunity for, for the creativity piece. Great advice to land on as we wrap up our podcast today with John Heaton. Hey, thank you so much, John, for being on the show today. Hey, thanks for having me, Tim. You bet. And to learn more about John and to grab one of his books, visit him on Facebook at Jay Heaton author, or go to his website,
flannel and flashlight.com. And, yeah, you can see get a glimpse into what John is doing on the other side of transition now pursuing his creative, creative dream. Thanks again, John. Thank
you. When we made a big starting over transition as a family, after 20 years of living and working overseas, there were a lot of concerns about what lies ahead, what were those next steps that we needed to take, but there were also a lot of Creative moments, times when we could process have conversations together, plan, and even journal our experience and leveraging those creative moments gave us perspective and purpose moving forward. So I want to encourage you leverage those creative
moments in positive ways. Get creative in your conversations, in your process and in your planning. Pray into those creative moments as well. The rewards are worth the risk. As a coach and someone who has navigated big family and career transitions, I can help you leverage the uncertainty of starting over while crafting an action plan for successful
transition. Book a discovery call with me at encompass life coaching comm if you're interested to learn how working with a coach can help you grow during this time of transition. Thanks for joining me for this episode of navigate podcast. I've been your host Tim Austin. If this has been helpful to you, would you mind rating the podcast writing a review and sharing on social media? And of course, you can always subscribe so that you're sure to get in on the next episode. And I'll see you there.