Hey everybody, thanks for tuning in to navigate. My name is Tim Austin, and I'm your host. And today we have back with us my wife Eve, Austin, on the show. Hello, Eve and Happy Fourth of July.
Hi, Tim. Happy Fourth. Time to throw some ribs on the grill.
Yes, that's the plan for today we are going to do that. Got me other big plans?
Well, it's getting pretty hot outside. So maybe we can take a swim.
Yes, that also sounds super good. I say today is a good day for no plans. But we had to do some ketchup because we were just we just returned from 10 days in Europe, serving on the staff of a conference called Breathe. Do you want to tell our listeners? What's that what that's all about?
Sure, Breathe is a renewal retreat for global workers. And they're coming from all over the planet to a small Swiss village for 10 days. And during those 10 days, they are receiving much needed soul care. So there's time and the word there's worship. They're small groups, there's plenty of time for prayer walks in time with the Lord. And then in the afternoons, there's time for appointments with a counselor, life coach, medical doctor,
massage therapy. So really just a holistic approach to caring for people that come from places where they they don't have access to soul care, or self care, and they come to get it and have it provided for them. It's really a blessing.
Yeah, it's an awesome experience for both of them and for for us who served serve the global workers who who come there. What is one takeaway for you as it relates to walking with global workers through transition and serving at the brief conference? What was one of your takeaways?
Well, I'm just always impacted by the needs that are represented. So diverse, because there's singles, couples, families, kids of all ages are there. And yeah, every every kind of need is represented in physical, spiritual and emotional, you know, theme. So I also am always impacted by how long people have waited sometimes to get the care they need and to get the support they need. And sometimes it has to do with denial or other things that make us put off
seeking help. But a lot of times, it's just the logistics of access to care. And they, they just don't have it accessible to them. And were in the places where they live. So they just carry on. And they are courageous, hardworking people. And so yeah, they do their best, but a lot of them are just hurting and weary and needing to be cared for.
Yeah. And so a lot of them come in that state of just feeling so exhausted, tired burnout, maybe confused about their own personal calling, and where they're at with that, and what what are, what are the next steps for them, maybe facing big transitions? So yeah, it's just it's just amazing, an amazing opportunity to walk with these global workers, as we did. And so you did that, as a counselor on staff. I did that as a life coach, on staff meeting with
couples one on one. And so in many of these contexts that they're coming from, like you said, it's very volatile, changes happening so rapidly, the unpredictability of what a day will hold, much less like a week or a month or the next year, just what is this day going to hold? And a lot of the isolation that people feel it all points to messy transitions sometimes, and the need to step back and to process to heal and to chart the course forward.
That's so critical to like, what our hearts are yours and mine. hearts to see people thrive on the field on the mission field to and to just see that longevity there rather than people. You know, burning out crashing and burning out in the process of dealing with hard things. So yeah, anything else that you want to add to that?
We see and everybody does really who has their eyes on global workers, this place where so many of them are surviving, maybe, but barely. And so this idea of how can we help them thrive, and providing the support that helps them to thrive, I think is just so, so needed and so important.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for joining me today, just for this introduction to our episode. And it's great to have you back You were my first guest on our premiere episode of navigate. And we'll have to go have to follow up with another episode sometime, right?
Yeah, sounds good. Sounds good. That was Valentine's Day. This is Fourth of July. So next Yeah. big holiday.
That sounds good. All right. Well, got anything else you want to add books your writing?
No, I haven't started on my book yet. But I will let you know.
Alright, thanks again for joining me. Just wanted to say to our listeners out there, there is a way to support this podcast and invest into the soul care work that we do with global workers. I'm gonna invite you to check out a way to do that on the web, you can go to patreon.com/timaustin and learn more about becoming a patron of this work that we do. Well, let's shift gears now and introduce part two of my
interview with Brett Allen. And while this interview can stand alone, if you haven't listened to part one, I encourage you to go back and start with that episode. And then follow up by listening to this one. It was a great part one episode with with Brett Allen. And I think you'll really engage even better if you've already listened to that. But nonetheless, so glad you dropped in. And here's part two of my conversation with Pastor
Brett Allen. So what are what are some maybe some posts, some pre succession best practices that you would say in other words, when you see leaders doing these things, they're setting themselves up for a successful transition. What does that look like? How many years out how many months out? What are they saying? What are they talking about?
Well, I think that some of the the earmarks of success on this is that the pastor brags about staff to the board, to the leadership team behind closed doors. He is bragging about staff that in front of the congregation that pastor is pointing to in commending, and complimenting the the actions of a junior staff member saying, Look at that, that is that is awesome. We need to commend the fact that you did this with the youth group. Look at that children's pastor go they had this happen,
they had that happen. They're doing this or doing that. And always calling that person, Pastor Joe, or pastor Bob or or pastor Sarah, that you are elevating there. Those are great earmarks, that you're able to elevate your staff. Yeah, in the eyes of the congregation and the eyes of the board, closed door and out in a public setting, that you're elevating your staff. I think that's a precursor of people that are
able to do that. I think the other thing is that a pastor an earmark a precursor is that you're genuinely interested in that person's development and what God has for them, and not just what they can do for you. I think it's a great statement when somebody comes to work, because they know that you're going to invest in them more than you're going to pay them. We have a we have a false idea right now in the church, that we can't get staff because we can't afford it. And I don't agree
with that. Ministry and sacrifice have always been inseparable. When I became the district youth director, I took a huge cut and pay. The reason I became the district youth director is because I wanted to work for Glen Cole. I want to Glen Coles and put in my life. years ago, my dad told me he said if you ever get a chance to work for Glen Cole, don't pass it up. I came to work for Glenn not because the dollars but
because of Glen Cole. And I believe that if our ministers will adapt the philosophies that you and I are sitting here talking about you'll never lack for staff. People will sacrifice the dollars and cents to be able to have the investment Have a leader who will pour themselves in input and put a young man or a young woman's development into, into the mix. And as part of the pastor's goal for having a staff,
That's good. I was just talking to a brother the other day about about this whole kind of mentoring piece and and taking someone under your wings. And it was it was just a really encouraging testimony. This this young man when he was a young man, he's my age now. But when he went off to Bible school, he just, he felt he, you know, he, he since he was 12 years old, he he felt called to be a pastor. So he goes off, leaves home and goes off to Bible Bible college. And he says, well, it's getting to
be Sunday. What do I do on Sunday, I go to church. So he just he looked across the street from his college campus, and there was a church. And so he goes in, and the pastor strikes up a conversation with him and says, What do you feel, you know, what do you feel God is calling you to do you know? And he said, Well, I'm, I'm supposed to be a pastor. And he said, Well, I I think we need to we need to work together. And
that's all he said. And that struck up a relationship of through his college, through his college years of just coming into this servant leaders, tutelage, you know, and just learning from him. And what a gift. And not always easy to find maybe in some contexts, but it certainly is a gift and real challenge for us in ministry, to be to be looking out for those opportunities, whether they're formal or informal, you know?
Nothing kills what we're talking about, like insecurity. If a minister is insecure, you're never going to have success. If a minister is insecure, you're never going to have well trained staff, right? If a minister secure, you're never going to brag about your staff, and your staff are never going to hit their mark. And it's going to become a paycheck, and they're going to be looking for opportunity to get away from you. insecure pastors are a very, very difficult thing on
everything. We're sitting here talking about today. insecurity is a great enemy of that.
Well, I know, too, it's, it's the insecurities. You know, even in the in the area of missions, it's the same way and Okay, let's how do you how do you get over it and get on with it? How do you get over the insecurities and get on with with what we're called to do?
Sure. And I think that you start with that, because every one of us deals with insecurities. There's not a single one of us, it doesn't have in there an area of insecurity. The leader, the person who does well, is the one who takes their insecurity by control and doesn't let their
insecurity control them. All of us have to deal with an insecurity issue and the leader gets over it and goes on do what is right, that the one who isn't a good leader sits and allows her insecurities to dictate their their emotions and their actions. So while we've got insecure missionaries, we've got insecure pastors, we've got insecure people all around us. That's not a shocking thing in
any way, shape, or form. Because all of us feel that all of us but we, we have to say to ourselves, I'm not going to allow the insecurity to dictate who I am and the way I handle staff. Or if I do that, I'm going to create a whole new generation of insecure pastors are going to go out in that spirit that I burst into them, because Spirit gives birth, the spirit is flesh gisbert the
flesh. And you know, the thing about leading people is you need to make sure that your spirit is of the variety that can be birthed into other people. And I would really just caution leaders not to be birthing an insecure spirit into a whole new generation of people that are trying their very best to follow you and trying their very best to follow God. And what they're getting is an insecure spirit burst into them. We don't need any more that our, our quota for insecure ministers remains full.
It really comes down to trusting God to the extent that I can say, I, I trust you enough to take care of me while you're elevating others into leadership and influence. And so I think there's probably a connection there with the insecurity and the trust and sure, and yeah, all of us like you said, deal with those insecurities and how to just let go and really let God let God do with that area in our lives. And and look to who we can pour into and prepare for the next for their in their life and
ministry. So yeah, so I think, you know, let's talk about a little bit about the whole just the idea of change. Some leaders are energized and they thrive on change. others not so much. We could might even we could even say maybe some people are addicted to change, I don't know. But what advice would you give to those on both sides of the equation, someone who likes change, likes excitement around
that. Is not insecure around that, but just, you know, they thrive on it or and then the other camp who's kind of, you know, not so much they don't like to change peace, they want to stay, they want to stay comfortable, they want to stay where they're at.
Yeah, and, you know, changes, a is a constant. Change is a given, change is going to happen. And our feeling about change is a is a secondary component to the change piece. Anytime that you talk about change, I think that you also have to bring in the word process. All change is tolerable with the correct process. As a leader, I have the I have the responsibility to lead change.
But I also have the obligation to lead change in a way that the people can get there with me, and understand how we got there and why we're there. In change, you're going to spend time, either you're going to spend time in process, preparing people, or you're going to make the change very quickly, and then spend all of that same amount of time putting out the fires and fighting the battles afterward, because you didn't
put any process in place. So there is there is a great need in change, to allow people the process to get where it is that they need to go with you. And when you're traveling with a group and you're leading a group, you don't travel fast.
And the great mistake that leaders make is they think about something, they think about things, maybe three months, six months, pray about it, journal, it, they, they study it, and then when they present it, they expect everybody to buy into it the first time they hear it, you've had six months that you want when I share an idea with my wife. Exactly. Yeah, that you that six months of sitting on this and thinking about this. And then you want everybody else to make a decision in five
minutes. The reason that young pastors get in trouble with boards is because of the fact that they come in with $50,000 ideas and want the decision made the first time the board members are hearing about it. So there
has to be a process for me. Even with the presbytery in that in the executive presbytery, when I bring in a brand new idea, I'll say, look, we're not making a decision today, I just want to present something to you, I want to I'm not, we're not going to talk about it today, other than I want to present it to you the next time we meet, we're going to open it up for some discussion and some dialogue.
And I give them a full 30 days or 45 days, just to be thinking about what it was I presented to them before I start even asking them for any questions. Because if I asked them for questions prematurely, then their questions are going to be defensive, and they're going to be negative. And that's what's going to be in the water. If all just let them hear it and think about it for 30 days, their their questions will be much more of the inquiry nature than the statement. Yeah, that's
good. Good. So process Yes, on change is huge. I don't believe anybody is absolutely just going to be completely opposed to change, if you allow the right process to go along. And the bigger the dollars, the bigger the process. And the more radical the change, the bigger the process, okay? And don't ever work on changing things you can touch until you've worked on mindsets and philosophy. Okay, don't lead change until you have worked on changing mindset and
work on changing philosophy. And once mindsets shift and philosophies change, then the other changes are they're very, very small process, right?
Some changes are you know, they can happen abruptly and in a moment's time. But the change that you're talking about is a process. So when I compare change with transition, that's kind of how I see it changes more can be you know, happen in an instant, abruptly, it can be a decision made, but a reaction, but transition, we have to engage the process.
And when you show up, there's more change just because you show up. It there are things that are changing that you don't even you're just doing what you've always done, you don't even know you're creating change, you just walked in the room and you're creating change. So the last thing you need to do is change the color of the pews, the color of the carpet and everything else because you just walking in the way you communicate the way that you see things is a way that you
treat people. That's enough change for people to digest for about 30 days, just on that. So when I came into this office, the difference between Brett Allen and Jim is, I guess notable, because everything that I was saying and everything that I was doing was just so far from the way Jim used to do it. That was enough change in for many months. That's all we changed. Okay, we left it alone, because that was enough for people to get yesterday.
So people people kind of saying, What's going on here? Why aren't we hearing things from from above from the top here?
Well, I will tell you that the amount of change that comes in with a new personality and a new perspective, and a different age group is sometimes it is plenty. And when you're young, and the youngest Superintendent we've ever elected, that scares elderly people. Sure. I was a young minister, when I went to Bethel in it scared the elderly people. As a matter of fact, I walked in, I hadn't changed one thing. And we got complaints about the sound levels, because they were convinced it was
louder. It's interesting perspective.
Yeah, so since we're talking about transition, let's transition to talking to just a little bit about that retirement age. And what However, people define retirement, whether that's just moving to the next thing, but it's moving out of something that they've been, you know, involved in for a long season. And they're looking to the next thing in their in their in their
senior years. But so I have a heart to come alongside missionaries, as I know you do with pastors who are transitioning out of long seasons of ministry, and possibly even retirement, whatever that looks like. These are leaders with many of them with a lot of great potential and a lot of passion. They're not, they're, you know, they, but they can feel lost, I think without purpose once that transition is kind of in motion, and what can we do to help them discover new purpose in the next season?
Well, our role on that is very responsive. The onus on that one, we're back to crossing the Jordan, you got some, you got some responsibility. And when we cross this particular river, and we're heading into post career type of a thing. The better job that you do have stating, I'm interested in being engaged, I'm interested in being valued. I'm interested in being utilized. the better off you are. I had a meeting here a couple of years ago with a missionary who was hit an age and he needed to
retire. And he came and saw me he and his wife, and he said, we have we have retired from missions. And we have a lot of energy, we want to be engaged. And can you please use us for missions awareness and the district? And I said, Absolutely. So we started a ministry and we gave them status in the district and we released them and off they went in a year and a half later, he came in and he said, Oh, we've been busy.
We've been doing this. And we've been doing that we've really enjoyed this, and we've enjoyed that. But pastor, we don't want to do this anymore. And I said, Okay, I said, What do you want to do? And he started to cry. So I want to go back to the mission field. In ag Wm wouldn't give him an appointment. He was too old. Yeah. So we sent him out as a missionary associate. And he's back on the field today, right. Now, the reason he's on the field today is an MA is because
he drove that. I didn't send him out that way. Right. He drove that. Yeah. And for all of us, when we get to that point, sitting around and waiting for the phone to ring is not the Yeah, that's just not the solution. Yeah. My father is 84. He's on a church staff. He's not the senior pastor. He's the admissions director and the senior adult pastor, and he preaches every week, and he's very fulfilled in ministry at 84. The reason that happened is because of him, yet he was
retired. And he was open to a new opportunity engaged in those conversations. I had pastors call me and they're open interim work. Praise God. for that. We need good interim pastors. Yeah, but a lot of that Tim is up to the up to the Minister, when he crosses that river. When you go over across the Jordan, then you got some additional responsibility for that season in your life and you had to do the communicating. You can't just expect that people are
going to do this. And I'll also say this, the better you handle succession, the better you're going to get cared for after the succession. Yeah, those young ministers that are coming up those young Joshua types that are coming up, never stop honoring Moses. That's good. They still they will always
honor Moses. And the better you do putting this in the water and putting this into the into the the life stream of the organization, that the better you're going to be honored and cared for and loved and revered and respected. After after the succession interchange is taking place.
Yeah. Good advice. And even if you're not retiring retirement age, like my wife and I, when returned from the mission field several years ago, we still had to be intentional. Very much so. But when you start knocking on doors, some of them we learned are going to not open right away. They're gonna it's going to take time. You got to keep knocking things . And pursuing those things. Yeah, so what? A couple Bonus questions here as we wrap up. A couple fun
questions for you. What advice would you give to your younger self?
Well, I was asked this question at the under 30 lunch, I would tell my younger self, be patient with people. Be more gentle with people. I wasn't a very patient, gentle guy early on. I've matured. The more gray hair that I get on my beard, that seems to be maturity. But I would encourage myself with that, I would encourage myself to slow down a little bit with people take an extra breath, listen a little
bit more. And I would also encourage my younger self listened very intently to what your wife is telling you because she has your best interests at heart. And she is usually giving you a good steer and my younger self didn't listen very well to my wife's guidance and advice.
Two good pieces of advice. What are some of the est words of wisdom you've recei
I received some great wisdom. Many, many, many times from my father, I've received great wisdom. One of the things my dad said to me once was you need two things to succeed in church leadership. You need Rhino hide and you need a soft heart. Don't be thin skinned, have Rhino hide, but have a very, very soft heart. And then my dad said, cry over your people. But don't ever let your people make you cry. Don't let your feelings get hurt all
the time. Be weeping over your people and praying for your people and have a soft heart over your people. But when somebody throws something at you or says something unkind or there's a slight that comes your way. Don't let that wound you.
Sounds like great advice for pastoral pastoral ministry.
I think we all need a little bit thicker hide n softer hearts.
Yeah, that's good. Hey, well, thank you so much. I just Yeah, thank you so much, Pastor Brett, for being with me today on this podcast.
Absolutely. A privilege and an honor. And I appreciate you including me. Thank you, Pastor Tim.
Yeah, we'll sign off for now. Thanks again. I hope you've gained some valuable insights from this two part conversation with Pastor Brett. Learn more about Brett and what he does at Brett allen.com. How can we engage the process of change in a way that honors relationships. This was a big takeaway from my conversation with Pastor Brett.
And as he reminds us, it's important at times to slow down and work on mindsets and philosophy first, before working on change we can touch a transitions coach is someone who comes alongside you in your journey to help you process change and see the big picture. To learn more book a discovery call with me at encompass life coaching.com if you're interested to learn how working with a coach can help you navigate the complexities of change. Thanks for joining me today for this episode of
navigate podcast. I've been your host Tim Austin. And if this has been helpful to you, would you mind reading the podcast writing a review and sharing on social media? And of course you can always subscribe so that you're sure to get in on the next episode. And I'll see you there.