Life and ministry transitions can be confusing and complicated to navigate. Welcome to navigate everyone. I'm Tim Austin and this is the podcast designed to take the guesswork out of transition. Whether you have a transition looming in your future or you're trying to make sense out of a past or current transition, this shows for you. In each episode will introduce strategies and tools individuals and teams can use to effectively navigate seasons of change, and
navigate. It's all about leveraging the challenges of change for optimal growth. I'm super excited to have John Taylor today on the show. JOHN is the executive director of Coaching Mission International. It's an organization that provides coaching and coach training to mission leaders to equip them to more effectively disciple the nations and fulfill
their calling. Prior to this role, john served 24 years in local church leadership, most recently for 17 years at first Christian Church in Phoenix, Arizona. John earned a dual degree in business management and biblical studies from Pacific Christian College in Fullerton, California, when he and his wife Joon have been married since 1986, and they have two grown sons. In this conversation, we'll be talking about some of the challenges related to identity and life purpose in transition seasons
that we go through. So let's go ahead and dive into our discussion with john Taylor. Welcome, John.
Hi Tim, thanks for having me on.
Hey, it's so great to have you on and as I was reading your bio, and as we actually have talked and had have shared in some conversations together, you have two grown sons so that that does that mean you're empty nesters. We are empty nesters been enjoying that for a couple of years now. All right. I'm wondering how that feels. We have one or two, one, maybe two years until our youngest daughter will most likely go off
to college. So I may be coming to you for some some wisdom and and maybe some transitions coaching. Who knows?
Yeah, to the point of your podcast here. Great transition to move to empty nesters.
Yeah, well, that was good. It was a positive experience for the most part.
Very much so yes.
Okay, that's good. Good to hear. That gives me hope. Um, yeah. So I just I want to start by just saying how grateful I am for the vision and mission of coaching in coaching mission International, which we will be referring to as CMI. I began my training as a Life and Leadership coach with CMI back in 2012. And I think, john, you were in a cohort that was before me a couple years before me, correct?
Yeah, I was on the initial CMI cohort of 2009.
Wow. Okay. So you were one of the pioneers? in on the ground floor? Yeah. Yeah, great. Yeah. Well, I know for me, it was exactly what I needed to help bridge my passion for missions with my role of coming alongside global workers. And, but rather than me trying to explain why what CMI does and why it exists, I'll leave that to you. Tell us why CMI exists.
Yeah, happy to do that, you know, one of the reasons whether we exist is to multiply coaching or missions. And we do that by providing coaching and coach training, to missions leaders to national leaders around the world, we found that that's a real need, because a lot of missions leaders and cross cultural workers are going at it alone. And many of them have a few trusted, wise, helpful people that can support them, encourage them and provide, you know what they need in the way of time and
resources to get over things. So while there are more and more member care services that are available, a lot of missions workers just don't have somebody that's trained skilled in the way of mentor or coach that can just come alongside them and walk with them. And so that's why CMI exists, is to do that to come alongside missions workers, national leaders, and to just walk with them and help them become more effective in the work that they are already doing.
Great. And, and I've heard, I've heard it said within CMI and some of the some of the vocabulary that we use, it's, I think, if I get if I'm getting it, right, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm multiplying coaching on the mission field. Is that is that kind of a slogan? Or did I am I getting that right?
Right. Yeah, multiply coaching for missions. There's a lot of different areas or places where people can receive coaching coach training, but that is our niche audience. And that's the area That really that we focus on is with missionaries, and again with key national leaders in some of those same countries.
Wonderful. That's awesome. Okay. So someone might, you know, reading your bio might might ask are so are you a coach? Are you a pastor? Or are you a missionary? Tell us tell us a bit more about what you do within CMI and how you navigated what would seem like multiple roles or transition to multiple roles throughout the years.
Yeah, of those things. Coach, Pastor missionary, I'm, I'm not a missionary, I work with a missions organization, but definitely a coach, a trainer, I used to be on staff at a church, as you said earlier on, as a pastor in local church ministry, for over 24 years, most recently, over 17 years here at
the church in Phoenix. But I've also am currently a volunteer chaplain with Phoenix PD, I'm trained and had been working with Sony Smith, stress assessment as a as a consultant or a coach with them, as well. And so I've I have had a lot of different multiple roles going on at the same time. And so, you know, to your question of navigating those things, it's really been a matter of deciding, you know, what, what's primary? What do I have time
for? What are my margins, I have actually stepped out of one or two of those roles, especially as I transitioned here into the role with CMI. And so it's just been a bit of learning. You know, what are my limits? What What can I handle? And what do I really need to be giving my time to? Hmm,
Yeah. So 17 years in local church ministry, and I'm assuming that was as a pastor on staff?
Yeah, that was just here in Phoenix, even seven more years at other churches before arriving here.
Okay. Okay. So how did that you know, during, during that long season of, of, of local church ministry, how did that impact or influence you in the direction you have moved toward, toward coaching and working with an organization like CMI?
No, I think that really came about as I was seeking a better way to help people, that's one of my core values. And really, the impact that I want to have in life is helping people grow and help them mature and, and take steps, whether it's in their faith or just growing as an individual. And, you know, I found myself becoming a bit frustrated, if you will, of trying to counsel people, tell them what to do. And they wouldn't do that, for
some reason. They had a hard time following my instructions. And while I was recommending for him to do news, so I'd heard about this idea of coaching, and began to investigate it myself. And then we had a guest speaker, come for a weekend of workshops, and speaking, and main sessions and, or main services. And he talked about coaching. So I asked him to tell me more about that, which he did. He said, here's the book that you need to read, which was Tony Stoltzfus, his leadership coaching book.
And I began reading through that, and I said, Yes, this is what I, I want to know more about, and asked this guy that had been speaking, I asked him where he got trained. And he said, through Tony's school, but that didn't exist anymore. So but I had to write Tony and ask him what he would recommend. So I did. And Tony said, hey, there's this new organization that's just starting, I'm going to be doing the training for them. And why don't you check it out, see if that might be
something that works. And so that was coaching mission International. And I applied with them and was a part of that very first cohort, as I mentioned earlier, and that was the beginning of my coaching journey.
Great. Yeah. It's great to hear some of some about some more about your journey. And I'm wondering just for those in church ministry, local church ministry, local church leaders, pastors, staff members, just, you know, and I know CMI is is the, the focus the vision, the mission is, is on coming alongside global
workers for missions. Yet, how can be because of all of your experience in church leadership, how can this kind of training benefit local church leaders, whether it's within their own structure and and their their own teams, and, and or outside of that in terms of their Mission, their global mission, their their their mission to fulfill the Great Commission?
Yeah, I think it can be hugely helpful. It certainly was. For me, that's been my experience in that. And I'd say this often, and I and I say this introductory part as well, I don't overstate it when I say that coaching really did change my life, in terms of how I interact with people, the level of conversations, just even, you know, conversations in passing, but it certainly impacted my leadership at the
local church. It impacted relationships, family relationships, as well as friendships, it's just had a huge impact in that it has made me one a better listener to people, but also, it's really helped me ask better questions. And that's really at the heart of coaching both of those skills. Yeah, the, you know, good strong listening skills, as well as good question asking skills. And quite honestly, I'd been lacking in those thought I was pretty good in each of those
areas. But as I began training is like, Oh, I'm not as good as I think that I am in these areas. So as I began to grow in those skills, it really did impact my leadership at the local church level, and all of those other areas.
Yeah, I think it's hard for for someone with no, you know, with with no background, or history and coaching to see how this can be all pervasive in terms of its
influence. Exposure to coaching, even the foul, even foundational, getting trained, and just some foundational coaching skills, how, how it can impact so many spheres of our lives, whether that's in the workplace, in those conversations, leading teams, working with a team, family relationships, conversations with our spouses, and our kids,
and just all of those areas. So I love the way you put that because it is it's been my experience as well being how it's influenced so many areas of my life in a positive way.
Yeah. And again, to get back to your question about the local church level, it helped my leadership in general, but specifically how I was leading the team, as a whole, how I was having, you know, conversations with team members, one on one, how I was handling conflict. And we all know that that exists, even at the local church level on my staff members, how I was navigating
those conversations. I think it's just hugely helpful, as I said, and especially for Well, all pastors, but especially missions pastors, as they work with those workers overseas, and national leaders, I just think these skills are critical. And I would really strongly encourage people to, to gain some even basic coaching skills just to help them in all areas of their life.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well get into our topic today around transition identity and purpose, specifically, how, how we often deal with identity and purpose issues, when we're going through complicated transitions. When I was transitioning back to the States, following 20 years of cross cultural living, I struggled a lot in the area of identity and purpose. And, you know, we know as followers of Christ, our identity is more than just what we do. Ultimately, it comes from
knowing who we are in him. But through that prolonged transition I was going through, I discovered that I had really, in many ways base my identity around roles and reputation, and other people's perceptions. So I had to come to a place of allowing those misconceptions to fall away, to be stripped away and to recover a healthy sense of identity and purpose moving forward. And and the new season
that I was going into. So john, can you say a bit about your transition story, and in particular, how this area of identity has been highlighted for you in transition seasons?
Sure. I do think that they are very closely tied together, this idea of transitions and identity in the
midst of those. And when I reflect on that idea, I can pretty well point or pretty easily point to three major transitions in my life that I think back on and think wow, my identity was tied to this or this as I was going through Those times of transition and ultimately, at least with the first several of these transitions, you know, in a pretty unhealthy way, because of how I'd had my identity wrapped up, the first area of transition was going to college in California, I grew up in
Midwest, and small town and went to a small Christian College. They're in the area where I grew up for a couple of years, and then I decided to transfer I wanted a business degree. And so I transferred out to a college in California. And that was my first real transition time dealing with this identity, because everybody knew who my family was where I grew up,
right. And, and, and the first part of my life, up to that point, it was built around, you know, pleasing parents, pleasing grandparents, and making sure that I stayed out of trouble. Because I didn't want to bring dishonor on to the family in
that way. But when I went out to California, and nobody knew them, and I found myself even responding in conversations, when somebody would ask me a question why I believe a certain way, or when I did a certain thing, and I would begin to respond with Well, you know, because my family or Hey, you don't know my family? What is my identity? Who am I? What do I believe? And so that was really the first time that I began to think about this idea of what is my identity, as I'm in this time
of transition? And what do I have as an identity? And how do I deal with that? You know, do I make a completely new identity? Or do I just, you know, kind of shift? My identity? What do I do with this? And that's really the first time that I thought about that idea of identity. Yeah, that's season.
Could we pause right there, because that just brought me to, to thinking about the pastor's kids, missionary kids. And for us, it's been a lot of looking at missionary families and how our kids transition. And I'm wondering, why is it that? Or is it even true? Maybe it's a, an assumption on my part, but it seems like a real season of struggle with with identity? Can you comment on that? Because it seems like your own experience? You had some bad in your own experience?
Yeah, I definitely have. And I've even seen it in the lives of other people, as their kids, maybe transition home, you know, the family has been on the field there the children's entire lives, and they come back to the states for
college. And, and they do have that kind of crisis of identity of, of who am I and you know, I've been told these things, we've done these things on the field, but I think on the field, especially, and in pastors, families, that the identity is wrapped up so much in the role of the parents. And so that th children just kind of take th t on themselves as this is who e are together. But then when th y do strike out on their own, th n it's all I know, the family' identity. But what is my iden
ity? I think that's why it s such a struggle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've seen that time and time again, and and kids wrestling with it, and some coming out on the other side, with a healthy, you know, eventually with a healthy sense of purpose and identity and, and can move forward and some just kind of have these pro longed times of just really, really struggling with that. So I sorry, I kind of interrupted you there. But you were that was your first so that was your first kind of big transition going off to college. What?
Okay, I'll let you let you go on with the other ones.
Okay. Well, I'd say the next one was probably when I was going into full time ministry had grown up in a family of past pastors and missionaries. And, you know, again, that had been a large part of the identity, but I had not ever been in that kind of a role. And so after working in some different types of jobs and some different areas, I thought, well, you know, maybe ministry is what I'm supposed to be doing. So I, I did find a
position at a local church. And I stepped into that, and then it became that I density crisis of what does it mean to be in this role? And, you know, now that I've got this label on me as a pastor, or minister, you know, what does that mean? And, and how does my identity wrapped up
in that? And the struggle, you know, of, I'm supposed to be, you know, this person that knows at least a certain level about these different areas, and yet, you know, internally feeling, well, I really don't even know what I'm doing or don't feel like I know very well what I'm
doing. So how do you? Yeah, I think that's a problem for people, especially if they're younger, when they're going into a key ministry position is, you know, you begin to develop this idea of At least I have to present myself to people this way. And then we can begin to wear those masks, and that those masks can become our identity as we are talking to other people.
And I think that that's a real point of caution that we need to talk more about, as people are being launched into different ministry areas.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, so here we have kind of key key junctures in your history of first big, you know, college transition, that season, then moving into career and ministry, and, and that big transition, and some of the identity struggles around that. And I like what you say about the masks, because yeah, that is a time when we tend to, to wear those masks or to to step into those, and start start seeing ourselves, defining ourselves around certain, certain roles
and, and things we do. And then and then what comes next, what came next for you.
For me major transition wise, it was when I then moved into a position of the lead pastor, and the local church, and I really felt in a in an uncomfortable spot at that time, because I never wanted to be a lead or senior pastor at a local church. And yet, due to some transition that happened at the church, I had asked our eldership, if we could do a team leadership model, they said, Sure. And that means that you're going to be the lead pastor. Now we had another guy on staff, he
was the main communicator. So I wasn't preaching every weekend. But I had that, that label that tag placed on me, and I really, really felt uncomfortable with that, and even did some push back against God at that time, you know, saying, You got the wrong guy here, God, I, I know that you're God, and you're all
knowing you. But I think you might have been a little bit off as I was moving into that position, and that was a real time of struggling with identity, in that season of life, and something that really, I really had to work through. But that's when I discovered coaching, and began the coaching training process. And that's when we moved into the life purpose discovery area of the
coach training. And that was just so impactful for me, as I began to wrestle with some of the ideas and life purpose discovery that helped me through that season.
So so that that was a real turning point for you in terms of you getting some tools and some skills and resources to actually process a transition.
Exactly, exactly. Okay. Yeah, there were several parts of the life purpose discovery training module that really were key for me and in providing those resources and that understanding, and the most important of which was this idea of Allegiance. And, you know, whose Am i is the question that we ask in our training module there. The other parts are, you know, design, how am I made?
passion, What has God placed in me passionate about how is he prepared me, you know, other areas, but this one of the legions whose am I, you know, really, really kind of hit me upside the head? And it's a question that you might think, well, of course, you know, we know, who was we are, and we're in Christ. And you even mentioned that earlier, we're talking about your own transition back to the States. But yet, it's a key question to ask ourselves in, in some really
important areas. And can I say that I have fully surrendered this area of my identity to Christ? Or am I still holding on to some things there?
Yeah, for m , too, I would say that, tha that particular module l fe purpose discovery was super impactful. And I think for me, the the area around what am I pa sionate about? clarifying v lues, core values. Wow, that j st had a huge impact on me b ing able to process a really a eally prolonged transitio time. And when we get when we re going through a transitio , and we have time to proces
like that, that is a gift. The time I know that a lot of times you know, when we are in, you know, experience a forced to transition or a rug pulled out transition, we migh call it. We don't always have t at gift of time. And there are ways to process those kinds of transitions as well But when we do have The time th t is a gift from God to be able to really, to really began to ecome crystal clear on wh we are, and what our, you know, life calling our mission is movi
g forward. So yeah, just to sa I think I really agree with y u, that was a powerful thing. S we talking about, you know, go ng through these transition se sons, and you brought up a bo k, or the name of a book earl er by Tony Tony selfless, call d leadership coaching. And anoth r one around this area of transi ion that can be really helpful i also another book by Ton selfless called the calling
ourney. And what I hear when I ear you talking about your ransition, journey, and these hree main areas of your life, it brought me to that book and what what Tony talks about is the stages and valleys of tran itions, and how we go go throug these, these valleys, and ome of them are valleys around dentity and purpose. And then w , we kind of come out of there, nd we come through another sea on of maybe productivity or pur ose. And then we come into a
other, another Valley. And so it's interesting that yo know, the way since I've read that book and kind of return o that book, and some of the the es around that. I always, whe I hear someone's transitio story, I often I often think in terms of stages and valleys. I don't I don't know about yo , but
Yeah, I sure do. Because I mean, it speaks directly to that, you know, idea of identity in transition seasons. And especially that is the last valley that is talked about in that book is the Valley of identity. And I know as I moved into that lead pastor position for me, that's exactly where I was, had just entered into that valley of identity. And that's what my real time of wrestling was, was with Who am I? How am I supposed to lead? When I'm, you know, have these
other swirling questions? In my mind in the season of transition?
Yes, yes. So now. Okay, so you and I are both kind of middle age, let's just put it that way. Right. So let's, let's thank you for the bit that generous. Let's talk about a little bit about that, that season, because that is pretty relevant. I know, it's relevant for me, and maybe some people we've worked with, we've coached we've, we've, we've come alongside in these kind of mid life seasons. Why do you think it's especially highlighted this
transition period? And and can be such a difficult area to navigate for, especially for ministry, the leaders and global leaders, global workers, this kind of mid life area?
Yeah, I think it's directly tied to that, you know, it's what, at least for years, has been called the midlife crisis, even in some contexts. And and I think that that's true. But I think that it all comes back to this idea of identity, especially for people 40s 50s. You know, you've been doing a certain work maybe for a
while or a long time. And you come to this point around that, you know, age timeframe, when you're just questioning, okay, what whatever I've been doing, what is the impact that I've been having? Yeah, what does God have left for me? And how is that related to my identity?
Because, you know, we tie our identities to a role, or, you know, to a season, a job that we've had a ministry, even as you're talking about, you know, ministry leaders and global workers, it can be very much tied to what we have been doing. And it's all wrapped up and tied to that idea of, Oh, I do this, I do this, I do this, but that's not necessarily what identity is. And I think, again, in our 40s and 50s, we come to that point of, wait a minute here. I
have been doing this Yes. But do I want that to be my identity to be my legacy, if you will? of who I am.
Right, right. Yeah. As let's just as we wrap this time up together, I wanted to look at just steps forward. So someone may be listening to our podcast today. And and saying, This is true of me. I'm going through transition. I'm wrestling with identity and life purpose issues, and I I need some support along the way. Having lived in Central Asia for 16 years, I understand that many global workers can feel isolated, and under resourced.
When it comes to getting the support they need while navigating really hard seasons of transition. How can How can they're sending churches, they're sending organizations, partner with CMI, to help resource these people.
Yeah, that's something that we can definitely do, because that's what we are all about is coming alongside people, again, to help them be more effective. And not just the work that they are doing, but also in the idea of them fulfilling their calling that God has placed in front of them. So what we can do is partner with churches and organizations and provide coaching to those
that that need it. And that, and again, we're not just talking, you know, somebody in crisis mode by any means that can be just somebody in a season of transition, going, get ready to go to the field getting ready to come back from the field a time home on home leave. It's about you know, whatever it is we can provide coaching to meet somebody at any of those stages. And it can just be so helpful to have somebody come alongside you and walk with you through that
season. But we can also partner by providing training to those organizations to the missions pastors, maybe at a sending church, members of the of the admissions team, you know, those kinds of people to help them be ready to provide this coaching to the people that they are working with, and that they have sent out there supporting them
financially. They're encouraging them in other ways that the coaching perspective can just really be a great tool to add to their toolbox to to help support and encourage the workers that they are already working with. Great,
so I'm hoping those who are listening today who might be in that situation, might be in a place like that, we'll be able to find ways to move forward. And I believe and and I'm convinced that CMI is a great organization to partner with. JOHN, you're, you're, you're leading well, and I'm just so so grateful to have you as a friend and partner and ministry and a fellow coach. So I just want to say yeah, thank you so much, john, for joining
me today. And to learn more about john and coaching mission International, you can go to coaching mission, Comm. And anything else, john, that will help people find, find, help find resources they need through CMI other than going on to the website.
That's the best place to do that. And we are, you know, at some different gatherings and conferences or whatever. But that's really the the spot to go to find all that information. And again, I just want to underscore the you know, that a coach can really help somebody with the issues of perspective, and help them reframe some things, especially during seasons of transition. And so yeah, we can just be a lot of help to people. We're at whatever stage they are in. So I appreciate that.
Wonderful. Thank you again, john, for joining me. Thanks, Tim. Good to be with you today. As I come alongside fellow transitioners. I'm passionate about helping them stay true to who they are and what they want to become both through and on the other side of transition. You can move confidently forward with greater clarity of purpose as you navigate transition, both for
yourself and for your team. Book a discovery call with me at encompass life coaching comm if you're interested to learn how life coaching can help you grow during this time of transition. Thanks for joining us today for this episode of navigate podcast. I've been your host Tim Austin. If this has been helpful to you, would you mind rating the podcast writing a review and sharing on social media. And of course, you can always subscribe so that you're sure to get in on
the next episode. Until the next time