S4E1- Forgive Me I've Sinned

Turn on those headphones. It's time for Naughty Talk with Sunny Lee Main. Thank you.

Welcome to Naughty Talk with Sunny Lee Mayne, the podcast that explores all things kinky in a sexy and inclusive way. This show is intended for mature audiences aged 18 and up, and some listeners may find it disturbing. We believe in risk-aware consensual kink here on the show, so if you do try things mentioned on the show at home, know that neither the show nor the cast are responsible for any accidents, injuries, legal, or property damages that may occur while getting your kink on.

Welcome to Naughty Talk Season 4, Episode 1. I'm Sunny Lee Main, she, her, and I am so excited to be kicking off this season with a wonderful returning guest and a super spicy topic. But before we dive in, I just want to take a moment to give some updates. This season has been a journey, and while I didn't start out with a clear plan for a theme, it quickly became clear that season four would be about pushing edges.

As a baby podcaster, there were some topics that I swore I would never touch with a 10-foot pole. And this season, after a lot of thought and consideration, I decided we were actually ready to explore uncharted territory. and tackle some exciting and challenging topics.

Edge play is about consensually pushing against one's own boundaries. And so this season, we'll talk about some higher risk types of play, hot button relationship topics, and listen to some of our cast members and returning guests talk about the ways in which they push their own personal edges, both in kinky and vanilla life.

Remember as always that the show is intended to explore the reasons why a person might choose to explore some of these skills and topics and is not intended in any way to instruct on technique. So if you do choose to explore any of the topics discussed on the show, please seek out the necessary learning to practice kink in a risk aware.

and risk mitigated way. And please remember that no kink activity can ever really be considered safe. So if you do decide to explore anything discussed on the show, it is at your own risk. All right, disclaimer's done. This season, we have several wonderful cast members, Panda Pet, Enigma, and HypnoStory returning. We also have some wonderful new and returning guests. I'm so appreciative of those who volunteer their time to continue to provide high quality and inclusive kink education.

There are several events coming up this summer that I'd like to highlight. I'll be presenting three classes with the wonderful panda pet and participating in a primal hunt at a 4th of July weekend camp out event hosted by Lock New York. I'm also planning to check out the amazing vendors at the KinkyCon New Hampshire co-op at the end of July. You can find details about both of these events on FetLife on the pages of these organizations.

And I'm planning to attend the main KinkyCon event this November as well, although it's much too early in the season to say yet in what capacity I'll be participating. In terms of creative adventures, I'm hard at work on a new book that is a break from my Turn the Key series, and I'm really excited about it. There should be some details about that to follow later in the season.

And I'm just really super excited to share it with everyone. The Turn the Key series itself currently has five dark, erotic, and queer inclusive novels already available on Amazon. and in the Kindle Unlimited library. So if you're looking for some spicy summer reading, you might find that that's your jam.

All right. I think that's all for news at this moment in time. And so without further ado, let's dive right into season four. Next up, we have a wonderful returning guest, P.T. Him. Welcome back. How are you today? Doing really good. Thank you so much for having me here.

Thank you for doing this with me a second time. I know we had some technical difficulties recording our first episode of this season, and this is sort of a take two. So I really appreciate the flexibility. No worries. And as I was saying before, you know, this time. It happens to be on a Sunday, so that's perfect. This class that I do in Christian Religious Kink always gets scheduled on Sundays, which is perfect. Maybe we should call you, what is it, Father Peter, you said? Yes, Father Peter.

for today. Exactly. I am Father Peter today. All right. Well, happy Sunday. Welcome back, Father Peter. It's nice to have you with us. Thank you. So we're here now in season four and the show has really evolved a lot since its pilot. And when I started out as a baby podcaster, not that I'm really a veteran now, but maybe I've progressed from, say, little to middle or something like that. In the beginning, I really talked to a lot of people. I asked for some advice about content.

And I did some listening and I decided, okay, you know, the subject is going to be kink. We're going to stick to that. We're going to be super inclusive. That's going to be the goal, but we're not going to do breath play. We're not going to do fire. that we're not going to touch politics and we're not going to touch religion with a 10 foot pole. So a couple of seasons ago, there was a little slip with that.

Roe was overturned. I shared some thoughts about that on the show. And then I sort of quietly slipped back into the safety zone. But maybe because I'm an edge player, I like to push my own boundaries. When I sat down to do the storyboard this season, I thought, you know, fuck it, we're going to break the rules this time.

And as a risk-aware consensual podcaster, I sat down and I talked to some potential guests, yourself included, Pete, about some topics that have been off limits for a while. And so, you know, let's do it. Let's talk about religious kinky play today. That sounds great. Glad to have the conversation. And then actually you're doing two things because with Christian religious kink play, I think politics always comes in. So we're kind of covering two bases for you. We're jumping right in.

Absolutely. So, I mean, let's dive in with that. Why, you know, it's sort of the elephant in the room. Why is this topic so taboo? Well, I think it's taboo because religion holds such a high place in people's priorities, in their consciousness, in their emotional life.

in their cultural life, in their political lives. I mean, you just need to look at some headlines these days, especially in the United States, and see how religion, especially Christian religion, affects people, how it guides them. And I would say in many wayward ways, but it's a very key. fundamental thing for a lot of people. And it's very sacrosanct, if you will, of course. I mean, that's by definition. It's something that we're sort of supposed to not touch and we're supposed to not...

suggest that there's anything questionable about it. And let me tell you, that was the story when I grew up as a Catholic for 12 years in grade school and high school. I got that training, if you will, that... about how important and special and everything and untouchable it was and how all the ideas are real and everything like that. And we can't question it from the start. So I think that's a big part of this. Yeah. And I mean, let's be honest, when you think about religion,

And you consider historical context when religions clash, and it doesn't have to be any particular one in mind, but historically when religions clash, violence often follows. Yeah, that's very true. I would say, you know, one of the things that comes up when you say that is I think the history of the Christian religion clashing with indigenous peoples. And ultimately, that...

you know, religion and the people behind it, you know, the Europeans behind it clashed with the spiritual systems of indigenous people. That usually is the one that people don't say much, you know, and that was part of the... the trauma that a lot of people around the globe experienced when Christianity made its first foray in a major violent, you know, expressive way through the doctrine of discovery.

And the good works of evangelizer criminal Columbus, as I call him. So, of course, I'm being sarcastic here. I think that, you know, that was part of the trauma that's been meted out upon the earth is the imposition of Christian ideas and then, you know, and European cultural violence on so many peoples around the globe.

I think that when we talk about religion, one of the places where things get sticky is that people say, My religion is part of my identity and my identity is not a fetish. And in many contexts, people say my identity is not a fetish and that can be very sensitive. I know you and I had talked about it a little bit. What do you feel separates religion from other types of identity, like say, I don't know, sexual orientation or gender or race or things like that? Yeah.

Well, you know, when we're talking about sexual orientation or race or body shape or body type, these are things that we are. You know, these are things that we're either born with or that develop in our body.

develop in our minds that are ultimately unchangeable. You know, now part of the narrative of Christianity has always been to accept say Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, if he's even a real person, to accept him, to take that on, to accept it, meaning that you're going to take it from outside and make it part of who you are.

Even they know in their, you know, some of the major narratives, not every single denomination carries that story, but it is a fundamental story of Christianity that if we don't accept that. then, you know, we are not saved or whatever. We're going to burn forever in the fires of hell, which, you know, as time went on, it began to be kind of a cool story for me because it's like, well, I bet you the music is going to be...

way better in hell than it will be in heaven. All I've seen is clouds and harps. And I have a feeling there's going to be rock and roll and jazz and blues happening in hell. Anyway. Side sidebar. But but, you know, so I think the whole thing about.

you know, identity is different. It's definitely different. So this is something that people can accept or not accept. They can take it or leave it. And so I don't think it's... that level of identity around the issues that we say we don't want fetishized like race or body shape or sexual orientation.

And I absolutely can't take credit for this because you're the one who said it when we were chatting earlier, but you described it, used a metaphor as sort of like putting on a jacket. Like this is something that I can put on or take off and other aspects of identity. Not so much the case. Yeah, it's very true. Yeah. You know, Christianity and other things, you know, you know, whether we drink Coke or Pepsi, you know, is something that we can.

put on or take off. We can do that or not. I don't know. Diet Coke drinker might be. No, I'm not getting any money from them. Right, I was just going to say, dang, I just said product names. Yeah, that's a habit I have not yet kicked. Gotcha. No worries. I respect that in you.

But those are things we can choose and not choose. We can put them on or take them off. And Christianity is like that. It doesn't make it any less powerful or important, but it is a choice we can make. So I think there is a difference.

Absolutely. And just in a general sense, before we dive into sort of the specifics of Christian religious kink, I just want to talk a little bit about how aspects of... religion in general can lend themselves to kink in a really natural way. I think about things like many religions have figures of authority. rules and guidelines to live by. I think about things like the ritualistic nature of kink and the ritualistic nature of a lot of religious practices, excitement about...

rule breaking and how that can sometimes be inherently hot. What other things do you feel like sort of naturally overlap with? um with kink dynamic yeah i think what you just said is really key and fundamental and i and i call them processes you know that there are so many processes in christian religious kink and the christian religion

that we can play with, can acknowledge, can work through, can work with. And definitely the concept of hierarchy is really deeply embedded in the Christian religion. that even the Pope is considered to be the emissary of their prophet Jesus Christ on the face of the earth. So has this level of infallibility. It's like, are you kidding me? So he's, you know, ultimately the rule maker.

So when we talk about how breaking rules is often hot, it's like, well, let me check with, you know, this kind of concept of the Pope. And, you know, you can get Pope outfits, you know, at Amazon or, you know, some. costume shops and things like that. So I'm just saying, the idea of role play, of stepping into these roles, stepping into the processes of things that Christians may do. And there's so many icons.

personalities, roles, the historical stuff that, yes, definitely there are these very hard and fast processes that we see within that, you know, like the mass itself or confession, which is a really fun thing to play with. the kink realm. So I think there's so many things that Yes, that get that are already set in stone in a way that we can play with pushback against that we can, as I like to say, subvert and pervert in the interest of, you know, the process of our own healing.

of fun, of sexiness, of sensuality, and even this kind of concept of power dynamics and power exchange. You know, when you set yourself up as an ultimate power, and let me tell you, Christianity has many narratives about that, many stories about that, how it is the way, you know, it has said that.

You know, I am the way, the truth and the light, I think is the term. It's like I'm it. You know, it is it. So to push back against that, to subvert and pervert that is a very powerful concept. And I think that. You know, and this is actually something we didn't talk about the first time, but sometimes it takes many, many, many years.

things about religion and how it's practiced can change. It was in the media recently with the current Pope, Pope Francis, you know, sort of publicly saying, you know, to be gay is not a crime. And that really I think is a powerful moment in that it, you know, forever the Catholic church has treated homosexuality or being queer, like it is a crime. And so, you know, in terms of.

you know, choosing to walk a spiritual path and what you can put on and what you can take off. It's not something that is inherent or set in stone. Right, right. And I, you know, when I hear things like that, and I've seen it a... Let me just say a hundred times, you know, and, you know, everybody says, yeah, Pope Frank is the good one, if you will. And I've seen a lot of duplicitous talk from him. And one of the things that comes up with me about that change, and I think it's.

that he would be able to say that, you know, they're kind of standing down on that stance that, you know, the LGBTQ community is all things evil and stuff like that. And we have to fight against it. And let me tell you, I've heard some really horrendous things. on the EWTM, the Eternal Word Television Network, which is kind of the cable and television, you know, Catholic channel, cable channel and communications network. So I've heard some awful.

awful things about the LGBT community being said by so-called PhDs and academics and things like that and clerics and all and priests. So one of the things that I would want to hear from Pope Frank, you know. And I call them that on purpose, you know, because I don't give them any respect, really. But, you know, is that there should be healing done because of that. You don't just get to say, oh, we changed our mind and everything's fine.

wait a minute, what about all the damage you did? You know, what about all that? And again, so, you know, and I feel for, you know, my LGBTQ family, you know, and loved ones, you know, if that statement is a good one, that's great. I want that to be the case for them. But I also am very, you know, suspicious about.

you know, that now there's no process. They don't put into process a healing process and a reconciliation process with them. And actually, there was never any good graces anyway, you know, with them. So, you know, what's to rebuild? So that's why I'm a little, you know. hesitant to jump up and down about it. But I want everybody who gets a good thing from that to get that good thing for sure. That's totally fair. I definitely think.

that I had a separation from that sort of organized religion when I was maybe like 12 and it's never come back. So that suspicion and that trauma, you know, it's never, it's never going away. But I think that what it brings to mind for me is that when people say, you know, this is the way it is and the way that it has always been. And this is something that, you know, treating religion like it's something that's sort of.

predetermined and that this is some kind of truth. Right. And then you look at the historical context and how, you know, over time things do in fact change and it's, you know, change that is happening, you know, with the words of human. not some higher power right

You know, it's important to take notice of those things, I suppose was the point. It's definitely not okay, to be clear. Right. You know, and overlaps with kink dynamic, you know, you think about a traditional sort of concept of like a DS. I don't even know if you can say a traditional anything with kink. There's so much variation. But, you know, DS, like, you know, you have authority. There are themes of things like discipline.

things about confessing to these rules that you broke, I can definitely see how it sort of lends itself in a natural way.

You know, you touched on it. We were starting to talk a little bit about trauma and religion. Right. You know, so when we're young, our early life experiences, they really shape us and also, you know, contribute to things like our sexual development. And some things might be sort of, you know, nature or innate and other things are definitely nurture.

And so I thought maybe we would talk about whether there's anything in your early life and mine that you feel like might have contributed to sort of your kink journey. Yes, for sure. And I, and from. You know, having taught so many classes about fetishes and having conversations with the community about it, whether, you know, in real time in classes and online, you know, in the connections that I have.

I have heard so often that a lot of fetishes and kinks come from experiences that we have in early life. A lot of the experts don't even know exactly how it all fits together. There's no one way that everybody comes to this. But I can think... particularly for myself. And as a foot fetishist, you know, I know I've had the experience of being young in the church.

When we would, you know, the Catholics kneel and stand and all this kind of stuff, you know, there's always jokes about that. But, you know, when people would kneel in church, you go down on the kneeler there, and then I could always see people's feet. a couple rows ahead.

And I started to realize that it was something that I wanted to see, that there was excitement or that there was joy in seeing, and generally, you know, women's feet, like their shoes would slip off their heels or something like that, or they'd have sandals on. and I could see their feet. So I was a budding foot fetishist, and I didn't even know what a fetish was or sexuality was at that time. But it became important to me to see that.

So, you know, even that in and of itself was happening within the church confines. the context of, you know, the Christian church and, you know, that budding fetishism, you know, with feet. So there was that connection. And even, you know, I think about... The statue of the so-called Virgin Mary has always been barefoot.

You know, and usually, you know, you can see one of her feet sticking out from under the blue and white outfit that she always has. You know, I guess that was popular in her day. But, you know, and she was either, you know, generally standing on a snake or something like that, which, you know, good for some. you know, be a phallic symbol or something like that. But, but it was, it was, um,

You know, a thing that came to my attention, you know, because of who I am, that, you know, she's barefoot there. So, you know, there's these connections between these icons and roles and, you know, processes again.

of being in the church and seeing feet and stuff like that, that connects, you know, a sort of budding pre-sexuality with not only, you know, feet, but the Christian church itself. So there's something that's getting, you know, kind of... wired you know it's it's uh you know the software is being put together you know the coding is happening yeah for sure you know and i it's like you think about your early experiences and you know things pop into your brain

And I've talked a lot on the show about how I had a sort of weird upbringing and sort of, I call it the bubble. And my parents are actually very, I would say they're very tolerant. People like I've never experienced. either of my parents acting in a way that I considered to be bigoted and neither of them were actually religious. So for me, the bubble was more about safety. Like everything was dangerous. If you leave the house, you're probably going to die kind of stuff.

but not about hate of other humans. That was never something that was part of my household or my family life growing up. But outside of my immediate household, you know, I have on one side of the family, Italian Catholics and on the other side, Besides Irish Catholics, there was no escaping it. And so to kind of appease the extended family, my mom, even though they did not attend church or do any kind of religious practice,

really sort of tried to encourage me to like attend catechism and go to church with an aunt of mine who I later found out was actually excommunicated. That was a whole thing for a divorce. Yeah. An actual. excommunication by the Catholic church. There were a couple of those in my family, but she would still attend even though she was kind of being shunned and just not receive communion. I think that like maybe in her eighties.

someone in one of her local churches sort of accepted her back or something like that and that's how long it took but you know she she was always devout and So, you know, I would go to church with this great aunt of mine and my mom was like, if you do this.

I will let you get your ears pierced. And like at a very young age, you know, if you meet, if you make your first communion, you can get your ears pierced. Something that I really wanted and sort of like tying this bodily autonomy. This is a thing that I want to do to my body in a way to church.

Right. You know, and at the time I like thought of like God or a higher power in the same way that I thought about Santa Claus. In fact, I was one time forced to go to like confession as part of this like catechism thing and i'm pretty sure that what i said was You know, I didn't want Santa not to bring me presents. And that was why I was there. Right. And so, you know, that's about the level of concept I had at the time that this was going on. And these were formative years.

Yeah. Well, I was just saying, you know, the thing that keeps coming up, and I want to, you know, give total respect to your family, but we can go larger than that when I say that it's like an extortion scheme. It's like that you, if you... If, you know, we want you to do this, so we'll give you this when you're, you know, when you do it for us, you know, or even the whole idea of, you know, we're going to excommunicate you, which, and this is how we know that they think.

These processes are the ultimate in life, because if you step in a line, we're going to pull that away from you. You can't play in our playground anymore. No matter how rife it is as a minefield of emotions and trauma, you know, that's their biggest thing is like, oh.

You can't be in this. You can't play with us anymore. You can't play on our playground. Yeah, this is an exclusive club. Yeah, it absolutely defines that they think it's the only way and that this is the thing. And again, that's why there's... I don't think it's ultimate energy is that, you know, other than... through the violence that they committed.

So I think there's always this gigantic energy that comes behind all of this. And they want it to sort of be silent and unspoken. And that's kind of the worst kind of trauma that there is that keeps happening or the worst kind of power. That does not, you know, illuminate itself. And I think that's definitely how the Christian church has operated. So when we subvert and pervert these things, we're really doing something.

you know, really counter, and I like to say anti-cultural, you know, because I think it's kind of anti-culture that you would do these things to people, you know, through religion. But it's counter-cultural to, you know, push back against that, you know, and I would say it's very progressive. think it's very liberating. It's very freeing. It's very healing to do these kinds of things, you know, against a system that suggests that it is the only way to be in the world.

Absolutely. And when I think about those sort of formative experiences, I think I recognized at an early age that this is wrong. There's something that you want to do with your body and you do this thing that you don't really believe in an exchange and then you can have that or even things like. you know, mom saying like, you and I, women should ask your father for permission to pierce your ears.

You know, like those things felt wrong to me from a very early time. And, you know, watching just sort of like this culture of shame. unfold and lack of tolerance at a very early age, I definitely decided, you know, this is not for me. And I'm pretty sure that once, once my ears were pierced, I was like, that's it. I'm not doing this anymore.

You know, which would have been like, what, maybe like second or third grade. Wow. Good for you. Yeah. I was like, I'm done. And to my parents' credit, you know, they did not. press me to continue on or to go back. Once I clearly articulated to them, I have seen both sides of things and made my choice. They did not continue to press.

But that's not the case for a lot of families and a lot of young children. Yeah, it's true. And my process was a 12-year process of... you know, being inculcated and, if you will, manipulated and, you know, being made a non-consensual, you know, submissive to this whole system. and being asked to be a part of it and to play, you know, different roles, which I did. You know, I was an altar boy. I was...

you know, the youth representative of just about every, you know, kind of Christian organization that was in my parish at the time. And I mean, it was at a, you know, I was, I remember being. I think it was a parish council meeting and I was the youth representative. So I was there. I was sitting next to this woman who under the table squeezed my leg, you know, while we're sitting there. And at that moment, I knew that.

wasn't a cool thing to do i didn't you know scream out you know because there's energy there there's there's uh you know it it was And ultimately, you know, kind of a, I'll call it kind of a mini trauma for me, but it was something that later on I realized that it wasn't okay. It wasn't okay for her to do that, to touch me in that way. But, you know, I was silent about it.

And I don't even think I told my parents that, you know, somebody had touched me in a way that I didn't want to be touched. And, you know, we might say, well, that's not, you know, well, it clearly isn't the worst way you can be touched, but it wasn't okay. It wasn't consensual. It wasn't right. And so...

You know, that power that existed there that I didn't feel I had a voice was something that was going on for 12 years for me. So, you know, to be able to push back against that and to, you know, that's why I say I love it that you at a very early age said, hey, this is not OK.

But there I was, you know, for 12 years getting trained in this process. So when I started to leave it and started to gain some of my own internal cultural power and external cultural power, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going all the way here. You know, I am not. going to allow this system that has forced these icons and roles and processes on me, I'm not going to give it the respect they said it should have had. And so when I do these classes on...

Christian religious kink and talk about that and play in these ways, it is very much a pushback against that. And it feels very powerful. It can be, of course, very sexy, very sensual, very liberating to... to get into this kind of play, role play and twist and turn and again, subvert and pervert these kinds of ideas in a way that makes us feel good and empowered and in the fullness of our humanity. Absolutely. And I still think about ways that...

you know, it's popped up for me in other places in my life. In high school, even though I sort of made that early separation, it definitely left a mark. I sang in the choir when I was a child. at church. And then in high school, I had this experience of being at a secular school and singing in a secular concert choir, no religious affiliation whatsoever.

And we were asked to perform, to sing at this, I think it was like a Thanksgiving service. And it was like a multi-faith service, but it took place. So it had like religious leaders from different sects. who were like taking turns speaking. And so therefore the school deemed because it was not just one denomination, it was somehow appropriate to basically say, if you want to stay in choir, you are now mandated to go into this church and sing. And...

You know, I had this really weird experience of like stepping into, you know, the pews that were reserved for the choir. And if anybody's been in a church, they know that a lot of them are built to echo and to carry music. in that particular part of it to carry sound. Talk about it. Absolutely. And I just had this weird...

Sort of like, you know, like I was being told to be quiet, to be silent, to sit through this, to bear it, even though I had expressed in advance that I was incredibly uncomfortable and I didn't want to go in there and told that if you don't do this, then you can't sing anymore.

this secular capacity and i just had this like weird emotional reaction of like laughter and so I'm like curled up in a ball in the pews and I'm laughing and it's hysterical and I cannot stop and it's carrying throughout this entire church and like the other my peers are like pinching me like you know, touching me and like pinching me and like shut up and like stop it. Like this is embarrassing. So, you know, there's like shame. There are like people who are touching me without my consent.

It was like something in my brain was like, we're not going to be silenced. We're just going to have this weird hysterical laughter and it's going to go on. for as long as it's going to go on. And the more they tell you to be quiet, the more it's going to happen. Yeah. You know, and I think if there hadn't been some great trauma associated with those early years, I probably wouldn't have had such a difficult...

And profound experience. Absolutely. I think the thing that happens within this Christian religious context is, and they say it many times, to tamp down the impulses that the body. has and that the body expresses it. You know, they've often even said, you know, our desire for pleasure is not godly, you know, so that we have to control that and tamp that down or not express that. which is part of their discussion about...

the LGBTQ community, that those attractions, those same-sex attractions are wrong and bad. So we love you, but we don't love what you do, which is a horrible statement to make to somebody for whom that is who they are. And that they're not going to change that.

To say that is horrible, you know, traumatic, you know, harm. But yeah, the body itself and, you know, your story is so indicative that the body is not going to lie. It's going to say, look, I got something inside here and it's going to come out and it just happens to be coming out of it. time you say, I should be quiet. And I'm not going to be quiet about it. I can't help it, you know, but have it come out. And again, it does, you know.

kind of speak to, and I'm just going to use a foot fetish term here, the trample that the church does on us, you know, the big, you know, Roman Catholic boot. you know, the Christian boot of power, you know, and let me say, I remember the, you know, these.

kind of big black boots that the nuns would wear when I was in grade school. And sometimes they would kick students who were stepping out of line or something like that. So, you know, I remember the power of that, you know, and I, again, you know, as we're talking about the formative years, you know, I wonder if that's part of the connection.

of my foot fetish, you know, to shoes and boots and things like that, that they have power because I've seen it used, you know, and albeit in a bad way. But again, but the power is still there.

The power is still there. And I can change that. You know, I can play with someone who's, you know, playing the role of a nun who's trampling me with boots and I can take them off and I can do stuff to her feet and whatever it might be. You know, we can change and switch that around again, subvert and pervert it. to be something that now makes sense to me. And, and that is something beautiful and sexy and powerful, you know? So yeah, I think that suggestion that we have to step in lockstep to.

the hierarchy's bidding, and the hierarchy includes a deity. You know, and I always say, you know, when we do this kind of play that there's always a co-top.

that we don't see. You know, it's always the concept of God, you know, G-O-D, capital G-O-D, that's in the room when we're doing Christian religious play. Exactly. And it's like even a more powerful Santa, you know, he doesn't even... live on the north pole he lives everywhere you know he's an alpha centaur in the milky way you know he's like super santa you know um so

I think that power is always there and we can always push back against that. And I think that's where some of this power exchange stuff, as we pervert it and subvert it and move it around and shift it and, you know. squash it and play those roles and then switch those roles can be really delicious and really powerful and really sexy and really meaningful to us because it is so ingrained. And if you want to break a rule.

You know, if we can call this, you know, this Christian narrative a rule, this is the one to break. If you're really a rule breaker, break this one and see how that feels, you know. And you know what? As a writer of erotica, I've definitely written some short stories about both Santa and Krampus. So there you go. I've engaged in religious kink. Nice. I love it.

You know, we talked about the trauma, but we also talked about, and you've touched on it already some today, you know, how... For some people, this might just be something that's fun and sexy. And for other people, it might feel like liberation. And others, it might feel like some sort of reclamation. And we talk about it in the same way that we sometimes. talk about CNC play, consensual non-consent play.

And some people who enjoy that are survivors of violence and they find it to be reclamatory and others, they just enjoy it. And I always draw the parallel. And I won't dwell on it a long time because I know I've talked about it on the show before, but for me, you know, people come up to me when I teach a class on CNC and they say, you know, or I'll receive messages sometimes like.

What happened to you? Something terrible must have happened to you because you like to do capture fantasy and, you know, rough body force play, those types of things. Something must have happened that was traumatic. What was it? So like, not only is it.

like an accusation almost but like there's this tone of like um how could you and when i feel that i often in my mind think like maybe i'm also speaking to potentially survivor of trauma so you know i i think about how i form my answer but what i usually tell them is like yes i I happen to be someone who has survived domestic and sexual violence. However, this type of play isn't about reliving my trauma. It's not about...

you know, sort of reclamation in that way. For me, you know, I have since a very early age, even before I ever had a concept of sex, had fantasies about this type of play. And I've always played this way, like before and after. Um, you know, those specific events, which by the way, the details of are nobody's business, you know, ask a stranger.

But, you know, for me, I take my power from I play the way I want to play and I do what feels good to me and what I enjoy doing because to not do that, that would be to give power back or to give power away. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's a really important distinction to say that there are many levels of how this particular kind of play or any kind of play can come into our realities, you know, as we conduct ourselves.

you know, in the sexual context and play and power context that we play with within kink, that yes, it can be something as simple as... Oh, hey, honey, let's do a little priest nun play here. And let me tell you, I've heard ever since I was young, all these stories of, oh, you know, whatever happened to Father so-and-so and, you know, whatever. Oh, he's gone from the...

religion and married a nun you know i've heard that story a lot you know it's like oh where was that what what happened to that cool nun that i you know that we had in seventh grade oh yeah she left the calling and got married you know so there's you know so there's all these you know precedents for

Oh, I think, yeah, they were always shacking up. And actually, when we hear about the awful history of, you know, especially in the Roman Catholic Church, of how they, you know, so many priests and also nuns. violated young people and others, that they hid those stories.

systemically you know as said in the movie spotlight from you know the ground all the way up to the top you know to the vatican level they hid these stories um so i think yeah there are all kinds of things like that from the very you know, if you will, innocent. And I like to call Christian religious kink play eye to eye, you know, innocent to irreverent, you know. So, you know, it can have that range of...

of experience within it, that it doesn't have to be connected to trauma or, you know, these deeper political stories, but it can be very innocent and playful. It's like, Oh, you know, Oh, what happens when, you know, what's underneath, you know? that priest's cassock and, and, you know, what happens when they're back in the sacristy and everybody left the church, but, you know,

Those two priests are still there and what's happening in the confessional booth, you know, so it could be that it can be many, many things to many, many people. And by the way, you know. sort of reclamatory play is something that I think a lot of folks have very strong feelings about. And for me, I think it's a very individual thing. If that's something that's powerful for you, great. If it's something that you want to avoid because that feels better for you, great.

You know, the one thing that when I teach on that subject, or when I talk about it, that I like to emphasize is that the important thing for me is... the consent of all the parties involved. And that if you're going to say, set up a scene that reminds you of a trauma and you feel like it is reclamatory in some way, you know, I strongly encourage you to be open about that with your partner because.

You know, it's one thing to say, hey, I feel like, you know, there might be some landmines here, but I really want to do this kind of play and it feels healing for me. Is that something that you feel comfortable also engaging in and being part of that journey with me or is it not? So I'm always on the side of if it involves adults and it's consensual, then go for it. Yeah, I agree. What came up in my mind as you were talking was good kink.

takes time you know and especially when there are things under the surface like these experiences that that are hard for us that we get to know each other in a way that we understand what's at play with this, you know, that we might be doing some you know, none, none play or something like that, whatever it might be, but that there might be a story underneath that, that we should know about, you know, that we can share about and, and allow.

you know, our partners, you know, one or 10 partners to know that there's, you know, some deeper levels here. So if there is any kind of, you know, repercussion during play or after play that was like, oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. You did say this was heavy and now we need some extra. tension, or we need to process that in a different way. So I think it's very important for people, especially in something like this, which, again, is a very edgy kind of play.

Though, yes, it can be innocent and playful, but there's a lot tied to it. And I always remember the one demo bottom that came to me after I had done one of these classes and she was. you know, the demo bottom, she shared with me how healing it was to have gone through the play that we did, you know, and whether it was that it was in front of 20 people or not is not the issue, but that. She got to play back these roles and to embody them in a different way that was totally consensual.

and that didn't have that larger energy of, you know, the church's edicts and power on top of it, though that's always in the room, of course, you know, that's always suggested and referenced, but that, you know, she was with someone who... she had some safe play with, you know, that happened to be me at the time, but that it was very meaningful for her to have done that. And it's moments like that that I really love as a kink educator.

but also just as a community member to hear that from people that I care about. Or that I'm becoming, you know, starting to care about, you know, that they can have experiences through kink and particularly through Christian religious kink play that are very powerful and healing and rejuvenative to them. So that's a big part of.

this for me. Though it can have, you know, as we suggested, you know, that great spectrum of how deep we might be going at any given time. Absolutely. And, you know, thinking about

reclamation. I think that as an adult, one of the things that it took me a long time to reclaim for myself was any type of spirituality. I think that You know, I had this early introduction to something that felt really not good to me. And then this very long period of sort of being spiritually starved because there was no in-between for me.

And now as an adult walking, you know, a very different spiritual path, one where... you know, polyamory is considered to be normal and encouraged even, or, you know, like sex for me. has a heavy overlap with my spiritual practices and sex is something that is considered to be important and sacred and you know meant to be shared without shame and powerful

And, you know, that's something that I've talked about a little bit. I think we did an episode on, I want to say we did an episode on spiritual kink. That's a path that I walk, but it's also... I think it appeals to me because the spiritual path that I walk is intended to be an extremely individual one where everybody does it a little bit differently in their own way. That part of the, you know.

The journey is, you know, sort of walking your own path. Right. Without a doubt. All right. We've talked about the serious. Let's be fun and silly.

So I'm going to pop up this list of terms and we did a little bit of this before. So it's your outline for your class and it has some terms on it. And I was like, let me just throw some out and you can kind of reassociate how each of these things sort of could be. perverted and subverted, as you like to say. Yes, I do. How can they be sexy? Yes, yes. And maybe go rogue and throw a few of my own in if that's still cool. Please do. All right. Without a doubt, go rogue.

Father Peter approves. Okay. Let's start with devil. Oh my goodness. Yes. The devil. the concept of the devil of say ultimate evil, you know you know, one of my, my favorite emojis is the smiling devil, you know, emoji, but, but to, you know, to bring that energy into play, you know, that.

that as a top or even the bottom, if you will, that you can play the role of the devil and that the... the devil must be brought into line of goodness or into some lascivious kind of way of twisting the devil's power or allowing the devil to kind of take over. you know, a moment and that there's this free, passionate kind of connection between two or more people to engage in the acts that they want to engage in and to kind of...

You know, let that drip from the corners of your mouth. Yeah, we're totally in this. And, you know, to call it out and just to say that, you know, can be super, super fun. And, you know, I still have a pair of plastic horns that. I haven't yet figured out where I'm going to wear them, but...

you know, that I put on my head as, you know, devil horns that I think are very fun. So yeah, that concept of the devil, it can be very sexy and powerful. Again, you know, that has just as much power, you know, as God does, you know, the idea of God, you know. away so you know as as sort of a source of if you will ultimate evil and you know wanton you know lust

As any store that deals in sexy Halloween costumes can attest. Exactly. It wouldn't be Halloween if there wasn't some kind of sexy something, the sexy nurse or the sexy whatever. And luckily, you know, that's attributed much more to, you know, kind of femme presenting, you know, costumes and stuff like that than male, you know, masculine presenting costumes. But and that's a whole.

another conversation about, you know, patriarchy and misogyny, but it's something that if we're aware of it and we know what we're doing, we can play with that in a really fun way. All right. Let's see. Moving on. Missionaries. Missionaries. Oh, yeah. Let me tell you. Now, you know, what's... great about play around that concept of missionaries is it's like, and I have found them, I've met a number of them, you know, they tend to be naive, they tend to be gaslighting, they tend to be

you know, very arrogant. Okay. Even with gentle voices. Now, if someone... There's no one that deserves spankings more than missionaries, in my opinion. So in that sense, just walking in the room, okay, you need to be in cuffs and chains, and you need to have stuff done to you, of course.

consensually because that's how we play in kink but you know the story can be yes you have just shown up here and now you know we're going to give you the the business here so you know as a foot fetishist i think okay well now i'm going to steal your shoes and and do all kinds of things to those, or I'm going to take your toes into my mouth or stuff mine into your mouth.

Mr. or Ms. missionary or non-binary missionary. You know, I'm totally going to take that power, that arrogance away from you, because I am now controlling what you thought was your power. And I'm going to twist that. and make it my own. So that is a delicious idea of my book. It's like I would just kind of get all kinds of giddy.

If, you know, if, if missionary showed up in my dungeon, it'd be like, yes, we're going to have fun tonight. And you don't even know what that's going to look like. Of course, in real life, we would, you know, negotiate. consent to those things. But the story, again, that we can play with the very luscious and lascivious story is like, oh, just wait until I get you into these cuffs. Oh, yeah. I'm giggling over here thinking about...

sort of kink educators as being sort of like kinky missionaries, like, Hey, look at what we've got going on over here. It's a fun time. Let me tell you, you know, the good word about CNC play. I don't know. I think ambassador is probably a better...

You know, like what? Because, you know, welcome to the community if you want to dip your toes in. Oh, definitely. And I love that term. Dip your toes in, please. Dip your toes in. Says crowd food fetishist here. But but one of the things I do when I teach. class, I either have my monk outfit on or my priest outfit on, which is my sort of cheap velour sport jacket with my collar, you know, my black dickie and collar underneath.

And so there I am as the image of one of the hierarchical roles. And there I am being super playful with my demo bottoms or demo tops and things like that. that doing kind of playful and lascivious things with them. So it immediately takes us into that role of, wow, this is how we can change this up and play with it.

Let's see. I want to pick something good. Yeah. Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are an interesting couple. When you consider that supposedly. Eve is made from a rib in Adam's body. And that, you know, there was this fall from grace that they had. And let me tell you, I think kink people can figure out. a hundred thousand ways to fall from grace with a power, with the power of that.

might be outside of them or something like that. I think that's part of it, you know, and that can be with kind of playing, you know, kind of discreetly near public or something that we don't want to scandalize the town with great enthusiasm. Right.

Exactly, exactly. Or to, you know, play out some of these roles. You know, it's like, yeah, don't talk to the snake. You know, can that snake be an outie bit or something like that? Oh, don't talk to that penis over there, you know, because that penis is bad. You know, we'll send you down the wrong road. You know, so is it something like that, some kind of metaphorical play? Or is it some kind of thing that says, hey, you know, we're the first two humans on Earth. We better procreate hard.

we better procreate all the time. And let's, we better Adam and Eve every single night this week or every, you know, every time, you know, we have, you know, some time we better Adam and Eve it in this car, you know? So. You know, there can be a lot of things that can come up with Adam and Eve or, you know, that it's Adam and Adam and Eve and Eve, you know, that kind of thing and kind of turn that on its ear, too. So, yeah, I can imagine.

that there's a lot of ways to play with that. And of course, even the kind of sensual nature of, oh, I want that apple. I need to have that apple. Is that apple a clitoris? Is that apple an apple a real? Apple, you know, that's like, oh, you know, you may be tied to the table or the chair or whatever it is. And here's this apple I'm going to tease you with. Maybe it's someone's breast or someone else's body part. Or maybe you've drawn, you know, an apple.

apple on, you know, with food coloring on the bottom of someone's foot. And it's like, Oh, do you want that apple? Oh, it's just out of reach for you. Oh, I'm sorry. You're tied up, you know, to that post right there. You can't get to the tree in the woods, you know, or something like that. Yeah, don't you want this apple right now? Oh, you want this apple. And the idea of this apple as being this fruit of knowledge, I think about...

Like, hell yeah, we're going to walk this kinky path and like take a bite of this apple and you're going to know what pleasure really means. And you're going to learn all these things. Right. And that pleasure we can, that we can plug in could be. anything that we like to do within the context of Adam and Eve and that apple. So Christian Religious Kink isn't even exclusive of all the kinds of ways we like to play.

you know, the payoff or the sin that we create, you know, and it's fun to sin, you know, can be any of the things that we love to do, you know, that can be the payoff for the, you know. transgression or something like that, you know, or the tease and denial of something. I'm trying to think about some of the things that just pop into my own head when I look at these words, like, you know, inquisition you have on here, I think about, you know, like interrogation play.

And, you know, things like even like tickle torture comes to mind. Oh, it does for me, too. Yeah, absolutely. It does all the time. Yeah. What else? Nuns. I definitely have an association in my brain with like corporal punishment. Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, that's why. For that class, and as I talk about it and as I play with people around it, it's really important to understand.

the great diversity and number, the volume of different kinds of processes and icons and kind of ceremonies that happen within the Christian religion so that you know what your choices are. That's absolutely why. made that list is so oh yeah oh yeah that's right there's a relationship between the congregant and the priest or the congregant and the nun and the nun and the priest and the priest and the pope and the pope and the monk

And the monk and the altar server, which, of course, would be someone of, you know, consenting age. And so, you know, not everything on this list, even, you know, given the context that I've talked about. you know, brings negative thoughts into my mind. Like I think about deity and I think about like body worship, mutual worship, you know, just sort of embracing sensuality, those types of things.

And, you know, when you were talking about Adam and Eve, I'm thinking about like this concept of, you know, sin and how sin is now something that is inherently sexy. I think maybe it always has been. this like sexiness about this is something that's a little taboo, a little bit considered to be wrong. And therefore it's super hot.

And, you know, just writing erotica, like how often, you know, for folks who read erotica or romance novels, have you heard description of like, you know, someone's like sinful tongue caressing a body? Absolutely. So I don't know. Those are some things that pop into my own brain. Yes, they pop into mine too. Yeah, without a doubt. And I think that whole idea of...

that we're again, yeah, breaking the rules that there's taboos that we can play with and play up against and push up against, push back on is very sexy. It's very hot. And again, the Christian religious context is full of that. It's just dripping with all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, to be able to say, I'm going to take this so-called sacred process. and I'm going to turn it on its ear, and there's going to be splooge at the end. Oh, yeah, yeah, that could be a good thing, you know.

That can be a lot of fun. In a minute, I am going to ask if you will take us out with a sexy story. But before we do that, I know, and I'm actually not sure exactly what the air date of this episode will be, but I know you have some events coming up. Do you want to tell us a little bit about those? And then we'll take.

this out with some sexy story time? For sure. That sounds fine with me. And yes, I will be teaching a couple of different classes, not Christian Religious Can't Get Tethered Together, which will be happening in Stanford. Connecticut in the beginning of March but I'll be doing a communication and negotiation class which is really important

And also my pedular enthusiasm class, which is basically my foot and shoe fetishism class. So that should be a lot of fun. And it's a great event to attend. Very educational, lots of fun, lots of rope and circus arts. And these are lots of really fun and informative classes that you sort of present on a rolling basis at a variety of events, right? Yes, I do. Yeah, there's a number of classes. And a lot of times, most of the time, I work with my co-presenter, Gurley.

who won't be with me this time, but her presence in joining Team Fabulous, as we call it now. has always been a great thing. So it's always a pleasure and it's always a great value for the attendees when she and I are together, teaching together. But yes, there's this Christian Religious King class and the Foot Fetishism class are part of a series of classes that we love to teach. And if folks are curious about checking out your content, is there a website or a place that they can go to?

Yes, you can find me on FetLife at Pete210. And 210 is no secret code. It's two feet, 10 toes. That's what the 210 means to me. So it's Pete210. And also... PeteGurleyKinkEducators.blogspot.com. And Gurley is spelled G-R-L-E-E. So Pete Gurley Kink Educators. It could probably use a little cleaning up there, but that's where you would find out some other information about the different classes that we do. All right. So let's take this out with some sinful story time with Father Peter.

Well, I'm going to reference a couple things and try to do it quickly. But there was this one scene that I was doing with a woman during one of the classes. And again, this is in front of... about 40 people. So she's on her knees, she's barefoot on her knees, and she's in front of the Virgin Mary statue, and she's praying. But while she's praying, she's masturbating.

All right. She's masturbating as she's praying to this Virgin Mary. And all the while, I'm also... whispering and not so quietly lascivious nothings into her ear as she's masturbating and she actually does climax while we're doing this and it's just deeply funny you know as a

you know, as a presenter, I can get lost in this moment because that's kind of what we do sometimes in kink, but it was really super sexy to have that. And of course I'm touching her feet at different times and she's, you know, pleasuring herself and it's really fun and beautiful. And I'm sure.

Sure, it was very different from what a lot of people know to be kink play because, again, this is very edgy stuff, and a lot of times we don't see people doing this in dungeons. So it's a way of validating that these are processes that we can do. be a part of. And it was super fun and sexy. And I think even during that same class, we had done a full baptism in water. And the person who got baptized, of course, we could see through her clothing and everything like that.

beautiful body was was bared to us but in another one we were also um there was a woman in front of the class masturbating with a vibrator and All at the same time, I was saying out loud and into her ear, you know, it's very close to her head, my arms around her. So, you know, I was telling her how.

sinful it was to be doing this in front of people, in front of the congregation. How dare she, you know, pleasure herself in this way. So, you know, I'm asking her little by little, you know, oh, are you getting close? Are you getting close? This is awful. What are you doing? What are you doing? You know, this is awful. It's sinful.

And so she's getting closer to climaxing. And at the very moment that she was about to climax, my hand takes the vibrator away from her. And let me tell you, she had this great outpouring of... of not only anger and disappointment, and this gasp, of course, because I stopped her from coming in front of 40 people. But also the 40 people were like, you know, they also gasped because they wanted her.

They wanted her orgasm as much as she did. So it was super fun kind of public play that happened. But, you know, with another play partner that I have, we do this thing on Ash Wednesday where, you know, I take ash and I put ash over different parts of her body. which also includes getting spanked by my nine-pound Bible, this really thick kind of Catholic family Bible that I love to wield and hit people with, consensually, of course.

But yeah, we have this kind of yearly play that we do this. And yeah, she'll get some ash on her forehead and she'll wear that out in public. But no one else knows that she's got ash on her thighs. ash on her breasts, ash on her back, you know, an ashen cross on her butt.

you know, and on her stomach and things like that. So she walks out into public knowing that there's been this kind of, and, you know, we can call it playfully a violation of her body with these images and stuff like that, but it's on her, you know, but. People can only see the cross on her forehead, which, you know, for others, it's like, oh, she's just another Catholic. But for her and I.

we know we're transgressing that and we're playing with that. And it's super sexy. And there's not penetration or anything with that kind of play, but there's definitely power play. There's definitely power roles that we play with there. as I'm the kinky Father Peter that's doing these things to her at this time. So it's super fun, and we love doing that every year.

around that time of year. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's really great, sexy fun. And just hearing you, you know, tell these stories as a Kingster who hasn't really done a lot of the specific type of play, I can definitely see.

you know, the appeal and the overlap of lots of other things, things like confessions, rules, this concept of denial, you know, in religion, where you're denying your body these things, and then you're thinking about you know, where you're denying yourself these worldly pleasures, you're thinking about like orgasm denial and forced orgasms.

marking you know someone it was a very kinky thing to do symbols and you know like thinking about like you know that ash being a symbol um but also you know religious symbols and then symbols and kink things like wearing a collar and like the people who are in the know know what that means right exhibitionism public display this idea that i'm going out in public and i have a naughty secret whether that's like you're wearing really naughty

lingerie under this really conservative outfit or you know you have an ash cross on your kitty it's the same it's the same thing and um and you know secret keeping and so I definitely I hear you. Yeah. I see you over there with your naughty religious stuff. It's fun. Yeah. Thank you for pushing the boundaries with this episode and talking to our listeners about this. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, and I appreciate talking about it. Thank you for giving it space and time. And I really appreciate that from you. And thanks for supporting the kink community with these podcasts and with the communications and the presenters that you have on your show all the time. Thank you for that.

you're very welcome and also for doing this twice because yeah we had some technical difficulties the first time we tried to record this i'm like yeah new season broken microphone tons of noise great episode that was basically unusable so For anybody listening, Pete was willing to do this episode with us two times just to make sure that you could have this information. Well, Father Peter is looking upon you with a very stern face right now. You can't see it.

I know, I didn't do enough technology checks and I deserve skankings now, right? Oh, yes, you do. Yes, you do. With my Bible flacker, my little, you know, yeah, I have a small New Testament. on the end of a handle that is an impact play toy. So, you know, you can get spanked by the nine-pound Bible or a little tiny New Testament.

So, yeah, you know, that could be in your future. I'm not suggesting you do it with me, but that's something that we can do. I'm glad we had this talk. Thanks for being with me today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks as always for listening to Naughty Talk. Our show is available on most popular podcast platforms. For updates, to submit a request to be a guest on the show, to write in with questions for our hosts or request lifestyle advice.

Head over to the show's page at SunnyLeeMaine.com. You'll also find information about my novels, including my Turn the Key series, which are dark erotica with themes of hypnosis, BDSM, and sometimes a little bit of magic. All books feature different kinks and are queer inclusive. I hope you've enjoyed the show and you join us again next time.