Native Lampard is a production of Our Heart Radio in partnership with Reason Choice Media.
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome home, everybody.
This is Andrew Gillum and I am here with our special co hosts for the week, the m v P the man who still can't tell you whether or not he is in a relationship that is non celestial. Uh. If it ain't Jesus based, I don't know what it is, uh, y'all. We we're welcome. Rather, we are proud to welcome an MVP for this show and also an MVP and data statistics learning everything you need to know to power your next campaign. Check out give a give me the tagline for your for your company, HTE strategies.
We we know your founder yep, Terrence.
Woodberry is founding partner NNGATI. We live at the intersection of the people re research.
So, y'all, that's Joshua does, giving you the background on his strategies if you ever need them, shout them out. And of course car sellers and Angela Ray whenever she shooges the pop in. We wanted to pick up on this theme of We talked a little bit about some of the scandals that are engulfing Washington, d C. But you know, it doesn't take a scandal breaking in DC
for us to know that. You know, in society we make mistakes, especially when you're in public life, Lots of mistakes can be made, and we pose the question to ourselves to ask and to answer. But we want to do the same and invite you into the conversation of one once you've made a very public mistake, and I guess it sort of depends on the nature of the mistake.
Possibly, but once you've.
Done that and you've had your time of possible contrition, apology, accountability, Does every mistake, once given grace, create the opportunity for being welcome back into society? Can you find uplift advancement? Is there is there is there a phoenix from the ashes? I wanted to put that to today's hosts whether or not there is an opportunity for redemption and if so, are there red lines that we a society just can't get cross and therefore there's no redemption? What do you stay with?
Gary?
Can I ask real quick tip for a friendly amendment? Is there a way that we can buy for Kate bringing somebody back into society? Versus bringing back into public office.
Yeah, but I do think the topic does we can buy for Kate that for sure, because I do think they're different certainly. Yeah, so we Yeah, you can answer it either which way or maybe both ways, depending on high structure.
I mean, for me, I think that you know, my legal brain, as I talked about Swall Whorler earlier, how there are different buckets, like you know, being a whole, you know, sleeping with your staff and then committing a sexual assault. I find sexual assault in domestic violence to be irredeemable period. That's you know, I don't even find that to be like a really weird red line to draw.
But personally I don't. I tell people like, I'm probably the least judgmental person you know, Like I don't really care what you do, how you do it, when you do it, or who you do it with. I don't care about none of that. The only thing that I don't really tolerate is putting hands on women. And like my entire friend group knows that, and that's not like a really weird red line. I don't think that's not anything. I'm not looking for pats on the back. That's not
something courageous. That's just me personally where I am. I think when you have moral failures or ethical collapses, I think that usually with time, you can spend time with yourself and you can be quote unquote redeemed, if that's what we're saying. And I think we should give people the grace to grow. I think who you were in college is not necessarily who you are today. I think that we've all grown from our days at Morehouse or Washington, or South Dakota or or fam you. I mean, well,
we've all grown from those days. And I just you know, I am somebody who's extremely cautious about passing judgment because I'm still trying to give myself grace and give other people the benefit of that grace. And so I think
that on one side. On that side, yeah, I mean, if if you're honest with folk about your past transgressions and they're able to see your growth, putting yourself on the ballot is fine and letting them adjudicate whether or not your growth actually matches, uh, you know, your verbiage. If you've committed an act of sex assault, I think that you need to spend the rest of your life dedicated to right that wrong, and the same thing with domestic violence.
That's just my personal think.
So there's grace, there is a red line, and in Bookar's case, is sexual violence and laying hands on me.
Man, Yeah, what.
Do you got, Josh?
I feel like there's no world where I could sit up here as a per person who has dedicated large parts of like my political career to rehabilitation and reintegration into society and then fixing the criminal justice system and you know, pushing legislation that allows us to see people who have have committed crimes to be to live gainful lives after they have been fully rehabilitated and have righted
their wrongs. I mean, we talked earlier about the criminal or community violence interventure programs.
You know.
I filmed the documentary this summer with a community Values to dificial program here in Chicago and set the seven people on the front lines pushing that program out in the neighborhoods stopping violence being violence interrupters were all people who had been convicted of pretty heinous crimes themselves at some point, right, And I was very happy to see that not only was this program interrupting those crime but it was taking people who had like crossed that line
and putting their you know them into use in their own communities. So you know, I struggle with this because I think about how our communities could benefit from strong rehabilitative systems. I do think, like I share what Bakari is saying, like there is a particular version that you want to have around anybody who has put their hands
on a woman and all and the like. But I think we should always have grace to see how we can rehabilitate somebody into society after we have helped them right the wrongs.
I think people can rehabilitate.
I don't.
I don't mind them like.
I know, but I just wanted to because he said, I just I think that you can go on the path or rehabilitation.
I just think being.
Re ingratiated, if that's a word, into the public eye, the public space, where there's a great responsibility, I think you forfeited that.
But I don't.
I'm not trying to a stew you from a path in our communities to do good work, because I do think that you have to spend the rest of your life doing that work.
To kind of write that wrong.
I'm just saying that having a place of some platform that is just difficult because it comes with as Andrew said in the Longer Show a couple of days ago, it comes with such great responsibility, but.
That you know, no, you're fine.
I've been really wrestling with this. I've been trying to write my little notes to figure out what's what. So I don't even want to address the reintegration into society because I think everybody should be given that opportunity, especially if they can atone for what they've done between them and their maker, through therapy, whatever. I think that there should be a pathway and on ren for people to
come back into society, especially when they make mistakes. I also done a lot of work in the justice reform space, and I think that that is imperative because there's so many times there's a minor mistake somebody makes, or they were right wrong place, wrong time, or woman was in love with a man it was a drug mule. Like, there's so many reasons and things that can happen. I was wrestling with what is a limit for me with
political office. I agree with Bakari that sexual assault that is proven is a non starter, Domestic violence that is proven especially habitual, because I think there are some circumstances of domestic violence where somebody was defending themselves and they were the ones that ended up getting arrested. In all that, I think it's on a case by case basis, not domestic violence and of itself, but what they say domestic violence was.
To be clear the hoeing.
There are hoes everywhere in every industry and especially in politics. So I agree that that's you know, you should work on your moral compass and your integrity, But I don't think that's a disqualifying offense. I think sleeping with staff is a little more tricky, and I think that there should be a real acknowledgment of the power dynamic that does exist there. And I think interns are different from
senior level staffers. And whether or not you know the staff was on a member's staff or whatever, or former staff or all. I think all of that matters also case by case. The thing that I have less grace for are like financial crimes that are proven. So you embezzled money, you redirected, you know, federal resources somewhere, you stole campaign funds for something that you know is ridiculous, versus you committed some type of financial crime before you
got elected. Let's say you were poor and you stole money so that you could feed your family. I can understand that. Differently, I think that we should not just have these broad sweeping like Barron Donalds.
What did he do?
Uh bezel mad impersonation of.
Theft?
No? No, no, this was just major financial crimes.
Yeah, but it was just it was before he was making ends meet. I mean with the I am.
In Florida state also ends that wasn't to make an end meet.
And unless we were in the luxurious category, all.
Of that matters.
And even when you think about like I grew up on so for Real and Candy Rain, all of them got in trouble for check writing fraud.
I want to know the reason for that.
I don't want to just say because it was check writing fraud, I'm automatically throwing them out.
It was a bunch of dudes I went to high school with.
I went to all girls school, but in the same time, in the same era, same zip code that went to they got in trouble with the law for like this check writing fraud thing when we were in high school. I think that that should be forgiven they were young and dumb, you know actually that I think they were in college by that time.
But what did come to mind? And he's not in public.
Office, but I think it's very interesting that his on ramp back into commentary was whereas Andrews still not a paid commentator and he actually didn't commit a crime and was actually acquitted. But I was thinking about Jeffrey Tuban, who was jacking off on a like company.
Zoom, so like should you should your One's.
Not what I was expecting. I wasn't expecting that, Sorry, Jeffrey.
Think, for example, I think what I'm I think what I'm saying is we have these like favorites that we play, and these blind spots that we hold, and these hypocrisies that we keep, and I think that we should just really wrestle with them and talk about why.
Because with great talent comes great runway. Jeffrey Tuban was perceived to be an extremely extremely gifted legal legal comment.
Throwaway with no substance and ability to contribute to the conversation. I don't think you see.
What I'm saying.
That if Andrew I think, I'm sorry, like and I'm going to actually disagree with and for Andrew in this moment. I think if the right opportunity came and it was not going to be Andrew versus Maga, and it's an opportunity to inform, just like we do on this podcast, that Andrew absolutely would create space to do that. He can't help himself. That's how we had a ninety minute podcast this week. He's going to inform people. He's going to he's going to share facts, he's going to give perspective.
He absolutely would do it. But my point is that Jeffrey, I mean to throw you. I mean, I'm not gonna apologize for throwing under the bus, but I guess what I'm saying is like, there are people in Congress who are given that same opportunity, in that same grace that Jeffrey Tuben was, There are people sitting in elected office right now who are giving that grace.
What's the one guy's name, y'all?
The he passed away now, but he was in Tennessee the I think it was a city councilman. He used to talk big ish in all the city council meetings.
He would be mockted uncle, oh yeah, Kevin.
Somebody. What's the name y'all know what I'm talking about, Yes, but like he would get passes for doing nonsensical things because it was funny, you know, or because he just didn't care. And all I'm saying is, I want us to be equitable in how we distribute justice. I want us to be equitable and how we share grace. I want us to be equitable in how we adjudge this spectrum of things. And I think that sometimes we're not,
you know, especially in this in this country. It's the two undred and fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence this year, and I think that they're so much further we have to go and even analyzing like how that justice is shared given to us, that independence, that freedom and liberation is given us. And I think sometimes we're the worst arbiters of that black folks I'm talking about.
And sometimes they are. Sometimes we are also the best pathway of redemption in the black community, you know, as well. I think I think we should none of us be illusory about the fact that this country has never been generally graceful for black men, black women either, but black but black men speaking very specifically, are discardible. It can be thrown away and not another thought paid to what happens to them. You know what happens to them afterwards.
So I'm certainly not illusory about it, and I think we do want to be in that arc a little bit more. And I was thinking about whether or not there are lines that are not crossable. Pedophilia is a hard thing for me, and I don't understand the brain science around it, which is probably what makes it doubly hard because I think I don't know how you disconnect from the habit and what the I don't know the chemistry.
I don't know the brain chemistry, and I think it I think that is what makes it a hard line for me. Sexual abuse pieces also make it really really challenging. I don't even know how a person can take their body respond to a forced environment like that. I just don't know how the body responds to that. I'd be in trauma.
Andrew, can I give you an example here? This I nobakari has to go. But I just want to say this really quick. I have someone who, let me be careful, I said, I know someone who is actually caught up in a legal issue right now behind child sex abuse. The person that I know claims that there was a young man who was pretty much abandoned by his parents, and she was starting to take care of him even with her family. All of this gave the child an
iPad to use. It's her iPad. But on the iPad there were naked images of her that she does not remember, like she didn't remember they were on there. But because they were on the iPad, is now caught up in a whole child sex scandal situation. And it's not the same thing as pedophilia, obviously. I've taken her word for it that it was, you know, there was no because a teacher and it was I mean, like all of
these things. And so again I feel like there still has to be spectrum in the broad categories because people make innocent mistakes. But now she's been arrested three times about this, you know, I.
Get I get it.
I think my issue isn't too the exception. It really is to rule demonstrated. But let me ask you about that rule, Andrew.
We all grew up, we all grew up where the fine girl in high school dated somebody that was twenty eight too damn old, driving driving the Lexus, you know, with the twills in the back.
Yes, and so there are the instances of the dating and consensual, and some would argued consent of a certain age is not consent at all, that parents must consent, so on and so forth. So I get that I'm really mostly dealing in this category, for instance, the Jeffrey Epstein world where people could could be complicit it and more than that, inviting of the idea of of of taking advantage of children for their own sexual pleasure. And there is a whole That's why I said, I don't
get the brain science. I'm not talking about these accidental whatever. R. Kelly is probably somebody I would put in the category of of the Epstein you know type where you your typeograph is I want a child, I want a person with a child like body.
I want you know.
So like, I don't get it. It's not a thing. So that is what it is. But quite frankly, I don't have for the most part, those hard, hard black and white lines as much as I have. If you want to enter public office, just know that it is the It is a contact sport and if you put yourself out there, you make yourself open to whatever comes in the arena of politics. As a contact sport, and if you survive that and people say I want to elevate you to this position. Elective office is not a
right for anybody. It is a privilege, and it is a place of responsibility, of elevated status. The thing is that you don't have to be a perfect person to
be an elevated status. In fact, some of the most successful public servants I have ever encountered have had They are people who have risen from the phoenix, and what the voter knows about them is that they have leveled with some kind of life that they have had to tussle, and they have had to grime, and they have had you know, they've had to pull themselves up out of some situation, which then communicates to the voter that maybe you might know a little bit about what I experience
in my life from day to day, and maybe that makes you a better policy maker because you now have an inlet and to what is really like out here.
One of my biggest issues with Swalwel this weekend, and I'll stop here, was that I felt like, and maybe he's not there in a position to have done this yet, but I felt like, if you were going to make a statement the general I have made mistakes does not go far enough because you're not in everyday average Joe, and it wouldn't work for everyday average Joe that I make mistakes. That's not why you're on the headlines right now. Your mistakes that you happen to make are not why
you're here. There are some bad decisions that have been made here that have put you and your family in a predicament. And you know what, it is not fair for the voters to have to ride that way with me while I am riding, And once this is over, I look forward to being able to reintroduce myself as someone who is just a man who makes mistakes, but also can atone for those mistakes and reintroduce themselves into
society and do good work. I'm not disposable, but then that requires a level of honesty with yourself and a belief that you owe it to the people to level with them. And then they make the decision as to whether they'll trust you again for the office, and I think leave it to them and they'll decide the right way. And if they don't choose you, then that might be an invitation for you to spend more work with yourself
that's it. So I think y'all, the listeners, we are of multiple minds here, but I think where there is some unanimity is that there's a general belief that people aren't disposable, and that folks have things to offer and to give, and that to the extent possible, we ought to make away in a window, in an opening form to do just that. Again, we thank you for your time. I hope, I hope you keep you too long, not like the show I hosted this week with a long time.
We want to wish you all well. We want to welcome you home, of course, and if it's not Tuesday and we ain't in Atlanta today, make sure that if you're in advance of Tuesday and we're not in Atlanta, that you be in the place Atlanta. Check the show notes for what I'm talking about. It's a secret invite be there. Welcome Home.
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