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Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Welcome, Welcome home. Y'all. This is episode eighty eight of Native Lampid, where we give you our breakdowns on all things politics and culture. Of course, we're your hosts Tiffany Cross, Angela Rye. There together, y'all, and this is me Andrew Gillim. What's up, Hi.
I want to start out by addressing a vicious rumor, and that is Angela and I did not plan to dress to like today. So if you ever see us dressed alike, it just happens. It's just, that's all.
What happened with Andrew, Andrew always doing the opposite, just like he does.
Welcome.
We could be a nineteen eighties album cover with Andrew in the middle, just butting a few more Bush.
Thank you, thank you so much.
Okay, Yes, what Tom?
Move right on past that.
It was given Uncle Luke.
Are we talking about what we talk about?
Speaking to Uncle Luke?
Yeah, it sounds like and I'm not saying he's in the Epstein files at all, but I am saying that there is some treachery in those files and MAGA Republicans don't want to release them after the community is split on whether or not we should care that much, and so is MAGA apparently.
Yeah, well, I definitely have a lot of thoughts on that. I as always enjoy hearing from our viewers, and thank you guys for always taking the time to record videos and respond even when you disagree. I just enjoy hearing from y'all, So I yield my time as I do most weeks, so we can have time to hear from our viewers.
I love it. I love it. Well, I'm with you, but I'm with you too, Angela, and I'd love to pivot from that Epstein piece to see how are Democrats as a party as an organization who we're trying to win back power. It's gonna take advantage of this moment or create their own moment to try to win the hearts and minds of an American voters. So we'll get to that on the other side, y'all, let's get at it.
What's up Native lampod My name is Atalanta and I'm a huge fan of the show. You guys actually inspired me to start my own podcast called Solar Punking. Where every Sunday we talk about solar punk ideology, things we can do in our community to make them better, and ways to build the world that we want to live in. Anyway, the reason for my videos that Tiffany mentioned last week come hard. It must be for law students right now, and I can tell you as a current too, well,
it's been a struggle. I'm a second year law student, and you know we're meant to read the material, absorb the material, analyze the material, and apply the material and sort of gaslad ourselves into believing it along the way. Chevron difference was a really big one that changed for us over my academic year. Birthright citizenship is a really big one right now. Do process is a really big one, and things are just changing so rapidly it's hard to
kind of keep up sometimes. But I got into this because they wanted to be an advocate for my community. So I'm going to stick it out today.
End either way.
Anyway.
I love you, guys, motivated peace.
I love that.
Thank you at Alanda, we appreciate that.
I know that is for real.
The stay hydrated piece, well, we're popping bottles over here, so hereous guys.
I like sparkling water. I don't know what you like it.
And you put me on water, but they ain't paying for no branding on this show, so I'm putting it on the floor. Yeah I like that brand too, But the other brand you put me onto I really.
Liked yea Georgia. That's good.
They hydrated. And I have a motivational water bottle that tells you hour by hour, like I'll look at it and it's like, by nine am, I should have consumed this much. By ten am, this much, and so it keeps me honest on drinking water. So anyway, thanks to Adlanda for listening and taking the time to send in that video.
What else we got?
Well do we not talking about with her video?
Oh well, I didn't think she had a question. I thought she was but we could talk.
I just want to.
Say I feel so bad for these law students because I mean, I really agree with this point, because you are trying to hang your hat, so to speak, on the law, on something that you can lean up against, and there are moments where you lean up against and it it shifts a little bit.
It feels like you lean up against this.
Right now and you fall back into a black hole, And so I do feel really bad for them because what they have to navigate is not what is the truth about humanity and what should be the law, but also like the fact that people in twenty twenty five don't know that that should be the case. That's a different type of negotiating with truth. That is that's that's really difficult. It's just I do not envy them. I also feel bad for the law professors.
Mm hmm.
That's what you're telling them, like, I'm about to teach you some stuff in this case, and they wrong, they all got it wrong.
Well, can I make a quick point on that.
CHERYLN.
Eifel joined Howard Law.
And I went to her reception and she was talking about something that probably would have made a lot more sense to you, but some legal precedent. And she was talking about it, and there were people in the audience who, you know, you heard the murmurs like what, I didn't even know about that, And she said, yeah, exactly. When I was in law school, I never knew anything about this.
And so she's like, raise your hand, acknowledge, make a noise if you've heard about this, and this huge like half the audience started clapping, and they stood up and started clapping, and she looked over and composed herself and said, those are.
All my former law students.
So whatever the piece was that she was talking about, they knew about it because she told them about it. Yeah, because she taught them. So shout out to CHERYLN. Eiffel, you know how much we love you on this podcast. And actually, let me just make this in the official invite to her to join us on Native Land whenever your time permits, madam next week.
We hope, we hope that's the missus Eiffles court.
But yeah, I think that's a good point on what law professors are going through. And I said last week, I think people who go to law school are trained to think differently. So I'm just curious how people are managing that. So thank you for playing in anything.
Yeah, that's yes. If you if you have.
To read through a textbook that may not hold true tomorrow, what are you banking on.
We hold these truths to be.
What self evidence changing.
We hold these truths to be changing.
You know, you know, I don't know if you guys have been following the biggest beef going on better than any rap beef and that is what's happening in Scotus with ACB and K with Amy Coney Barrett and Kintanji Brown Jackson. This is the first time that our friend Albert is always saying, read the opinions because they're written for you know people, and I always get intimidated, like, just explain it, tell me what happened. I have been
reading these opinions. And when I tell you, Justice Kintanji Brown Jackson is here for it, and she comes in. So what happens is the Descent will issue and correct me if I'm wrong, The Descent will issue their opinion, and Justice Jackson will issue her own. She issued her own like they can say what they want to say, but this is what I want to say, and had her own statement where she was so clear and precise.
And then when ain't nobody call for her, Amy Coney Barrett came out and responded to Kintanji Brown Jackson, I'll do a horrible job and have to correct myself explaining it. No, I think hers was written.
She had.
It wasn't verbal, like she issued a written opinion in response to Justice Jackson, and it was clearly like so petty she's clearly so intimidated by by Justice Jackson. Is so ridiculous.
You know, one of the things that in addition to feeling for law students, I'm feeling for criminally charged defendants right now. And this alligator Alcatraz, that Rohn Deasantiss is created here in Florida where they're supposedly detaining the worst
of the worst. And legislators went in there and found out these folks, and most of which don't have infractions, and in some cases should they have infractions, they're traffic These folks aren't out here creating crimes and so on, but they're more importantly, the sixth Amendment to the Constitution allows for all of us to have rights to an attorney should we be arrested, apprehended, or accused of some crime. And right now lawyers cannot get in to see their clients.
They're being told when they show up to see their clients that right now there isn't a system that can facilitate them seeing their client. Well, we'll take your concern and relay it. No, no, no, no, no. These are constitutional rights. And guess what about the US Constitution. Its limits are
within the jurisdiction of the United States. And so whether you are a citizen of the US, you're a visitor, you are undocumented, you still have access to the rights that are guaranteed there, and right now they're trifling over them. And so I fear for law students in the world they're being introduced to because what's up and what's down.
But I also fear for people right now who are being detained American citizens included being detained without any access to a lawyer, no access to their family, basically being absented by the government who are wearing disguises when they take them and put anywhere, including outside of the boundaries of the geographical boundaries, in reach of the US government or any of its courts by sending them to foreign
foreign countries. So the whole thing sucks. But we appreciate the comment the comments as they as they continue to come in. Let's take another one.
Hey, Native Land Podcasts. This is changed from the New York City and Andrew, I feel so see when you scoop Tiffity Cross. I need that new season of Acrush Generations. Angela Rye, I need on one back. I wanted to contribute to the housing crisis conversation One example of why the housing crisis exists in New York City is because government salaries, specifically for city and state employees, do not keep up with private industries, specifically with real estate rental.
On average, city employees make around forty thousand to sixty thousand dollars with a forty five thousand to fifty thousand dollars range. Really, and majority of those people are Blacks and Latinos. A ruler thumb across mental real estate is they want forty times to rent. So a lot of times our average rant can be around three thousand dollars for these new buildings being built, and so you have to make around one hundred and twenty thousand dollars to
get into these buildings. And these people.
Don't sis Agela and a lot of people they to rent to damn High But Andrew, this was a topic that you introduced, the wanted to talk about, very passionate about.
Yeah, well, I want to continue to invite people.
Do you remember the man to rent to damn High Man. He probably would win the mayor all election right now.
He sure would. I mean, and by the way, that's a message that folks across the country can run with. That's the problem with this crisis is that it isn't just the New York cities of the world that are experiencing it. All over working people, two income households struggling to make ends meet, largely because the rents and the mortgages and and and accessibility to affordable housing. And again,
affordable is whatever you can afford on your salary. So don't think we're talking about Section eight or we're all talking about Section eight, but we're talking about all housing. And y'all, I'm not in my drink.
Wondering what happened.
I'm continuing to hydrate. But but importantly, this is a crisis that is being experienced all across the country. And I got to tell you, if politicians can office around the country, I don't care what level of government you're running for if they don't wake up and start talking about this extreme wealth divide that folks are experiencing. The income what's real, what you can afford. I go to
the grocery store, y'all. I don't know what y'all's experiences are, but people literally have their phones out and they're googling other stores to price compare. I had not seen this in a very long time. People are real time price comparing the price of toilet tissue here and if I went't here what it would cost, And if I ordered an Amazon, this is what it would cost. And I don't think this experience that people are having right now in real time has been yet reflected in our politics yet.
I don't think we've had an election to reflect what's really going on yet, And I think we ought to hold on to our seats when that happens, because anything is possible when the bottom ninety percent of us get frustrated with the circumstances as they are, especially when it comes to our wallet.
Thank you both entertaining my question on your last when your previous podcast, my concern of talking to some of us sometimes as if we are political mild contents was responded to by Angela by challenging me to stop it being mild content. I'm familiar with some of the work, and I am critical, friend, but you are what every black girl in America's descrived to be. And I feel the same way about Miss Cross as well. But can angel a pretentious response to me? Can that really show
the truth issue? And it also shows how deep the equal chamber runs My side views some of you as being politically compromised, and pushes a white supremacy wrapped up in black activism for a party that don't care about us. Your side treat my side similar to how Angela treated me. There's nobody's listening, but it's just emotional and petty attacks on pedagogical intelligence. Isn't that the issue?
Okay?
Well, thanks our dear friend for sending in yet another video. I think what I would say to this is, you know, we make assumptions in this life about people, about their
allegiances to things. And I just spent the last several weeks connecting black people who are like minded and not like not like minded at all, people who come from different economic backgrounds, people who come from different zip codes and states, and so I think the least of my concerns right now is being somehow compromised to a party that I ain't never paid my bills, and I just
wish I would. So, I mean, I don't have anything other than I am for black folks uniting and figuring out what our common ground is, what are common causes and how we move forward and like minded fashion to hopefully accomplish the same mission, which is our ultimate freedom and liberation.
The rest of that I'm not gonna respond to because he ain't talking to me.
Yeah, I just want to say thank you friend for sending in the video, and just to reiterate the point that even in disagreement, we're all family and in conversation with you. So I appreciate you listening to the next episode where we did talk about your question and taking the time to send in another video. I do take your point about, you know, certain people looking at other groups as being politically compromised for a party, and I think that some of the I hope anyway, some of
the nuance that you get in this conversation. The three of us don't agree on a lot of things. I'm certainly not a party person. I'm never here promoting democratic talking points at all. My interest is always in us as a community, and I feel like I can say that for my co host that that's always our first interest.
So I would just ask you to keep.
Tuning in, keep weighing in, and we certainly are not above reproach and depend on our audience to hold us accountable if you feel like something we're saying you disagree with will always be open and receptive. I'm accountable to effects, yeah, I am, But I'm saying if they are rooted in facts, then we will engage. If it's not your experience or or experience exactly their personal experience, I think it depends I might not be accountable to your experience.
Well, I don't know that we're I don't know that we're accountable accountable to someone's experience. Accountability requires that we take some ownership, so on and so forth. But I do think that people's experiences, and we often say this when we're all talking about registering people to vote, If your experiences is when you vote, nothing changes, And that's been your experience every time you've done it, as people have asked you to and admonished you to, and that
you felt compelled to. But yet nothing changes. Again, definitional insanity, people's lived experience guides that practice. In fact, I lived experience guys most of our practices. What we're experiencing during the day very much so dictates what we end up doing. And so I think people's experiences matter, and we're not the arbiters of that truth, right they are.
Yes, But I also think that would be a good deeper philosophical mini pod.
Okay about not.
To be accountable for your experiences or just accountable for facts?
What are other people accountable for our experiences too?
We would let a lot of people off the hook if that became the new standard, if that people didn't have to be responsible for our experiences in the world. White folks right now largely have already wholesale taken themselves off the hook for the legacy of slavery and segregation.
And do we not try to hold them accountable for our experience?
I do believe.
I do believe that experience I'm responsible for.
Like your misunderstanding of me, I think that if I, if I hurt your feelings, I can apologize to you for hurting your feelings.
That's subjective, but I also.
Can say that is not what I was factually, that was the intention. But let me let me acknowledge that you were hurt in some way. What I'm not accountable for, though, is like you painting me with a broad brush because you using some talking points you learned about on the Instagram comment I'm not gonna be responsible?
Well, no, I don't. Well do we do?
We want to have this as a mini want to get it was even you saying it. I'm like that we can take this politically, personally, professionally. I think there's a lot of tentacles, So we can talk about it now. We can have it as a mini pod.
Who's going to remember that? We want it as me? Okay, okay, all right, all right.
But but I do think there was something said here that Angela you may be able to lift off of, which is this, what is the what is each side saying to voters? What are they communicating right now? If you would pick up the headlines, what's what's out there right now? What does the voter get to consume? That's a meaning.
Well, we can talk about this.
We were supposed to talk about this big, badass bill and what people how it is being reported on right now.
Of course, there's this case with.
The Epstein files and how people are experiencing that failed promises, which is not going to be a unique experience with anyone who voted for Donald Trump based on some promises he.
Made a lie gonna lie every day of a week.
So I think that one of the things that we have to be and one of the things that I'm actually proud that we do on this podcast is we don't let headlines and whatever's been like on the breaking news ticker tape all day on a broadcast.
We don't let that dictate what we share with our audience.
So I think here, hopefully you are clear about what the big badass Bill does. Here, hopefully you are clear about why. Well maybe today you will be clear about why this Epstein thing is in the news and why his supporters fill away. But yeah, I think that we have an obligation to tell people the truth, even if it is in the bottom on the bottom fold, on the other side of the headline. It's not something that you're looking for, but it's something that.
We think you need to know.
I just want to remind all of our listeners, those of you who may disagree with us vociferously, but you still enjoy this opportunity to listen and share what we do here at Native Lampid. The best way you can support us at this point is to hey, rate, review, subscribe, and continue to listen to anybody others to listen. We need to support because we want to be around for
a good little while sharing this community with you. Angela, go ahead and take us into what's at the top of the fold that we may or may not believe should be.
Yeah.
So right now there is a maga war going on, folks on actually both sides of the aisle are conflicted about whether or not Jeffrey Epstein file should be released. And Donald Trump is also speaking pretty ambiguously about this.
So let's play what Donald Trump is saying right now.
Your daughter in law said that there should be transparency in the Epstein case.
You agree with her, sir.
The Attorney General's handled that very well. She's really done a very good job, and I think that when you look at it, you'll understand that I would like to see that also, But I think the attorney general the credibility is very important, and you want credible evidence.
Or something like that.
But she's handled it very well, and it's going to be up to her.
Whatever she thinks it's credible, she should release.
Yeah.
Okay, so he's see would.
Used to say he would direct he was the chief law enforcement. He directs.
Well.
And now you're asking Donald Trump to keep the truth going. So let's go back to what Pam Bondi said earlier this year about the Epstein files.
The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Well, that really happen.
It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump.
I'm reviewing that.
I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the President from all of these agencies.
Okay, so he directed her, but now it's completely up to her. And now it sounds like Attorney General Pam Bondi has changed her tune a little bit about what is going to be released.
Let's roll that President said today.
You would release credible files related to mis reps.
Are you prepared to do that?
And when would you do?
Our memo today our memo speaks for its off and we'll get batch you on anything else.
The DOJ memo said that it found no incriminating client list and no credible evidence of blackmail, and therefore no further disclosure.
I think what is interesting and important here is that there is this growing groundswell of folks who supported the president, including the FBI director Cash Betel, his deputy Dan Bongino. They think that these files should be released. Of course, the FBI reports to the AGE at the Department of Justice, and they are very divided and what they think should happen.
I think that this is a massive distraction from what really matters, which is ensuring that our folks social Security, medicare, Medicaid, snap, all of those things are still covered. Julian Epstein, Sorry, Jeffrey Epstein, Lord have mercy on a college man. I'm sorry, Julian, you did good people.
Jeffrey Epstein is He's just not right.
And I think that this is one of those things where you know, there's nothing that we can do now this man isn't here. There are a lot of people who are victims, alleged victims, et cetera.
I don't know how this is going to pay and.
Cover people's most basic needs, but they are divided, and people have suggested that this is a good place for us to show that he's the liar that he is.
But I feel like we've.
Been saying this since twenty sixteen, Since twenty fifteen, I think that's the key, Like this is the thing that y'all want to be mad at Donald Trump over.
It's such horseshit. I mean, we should just be honest. The only reason the quote unquote Epstein Files ever became a thing is because they dangled it as red meat before their unintellectual base, because the subtext of was the Clintons were attached to it, the Clintons were involved. So the same half witted conspiracy theorists, believing idiots who supported Pizzagate are now not only driving what our government focuses on, but they're also driving the narrative in the media. I
looked at all this week. There's been breaking news, a breaking news banner all week, all last week, will likely be all next week because this tiny, niche group of people is so focused on the Epstein Files. Dan Brigino throwing a whole ass temper tantrum, not wanting to show up to his job at the FBI because he is mad about the Epstein Files, and we're talking about this
like it's normal. Not the fact that Dan Mangino or Bergino, how real say his name Bongino, Not the fact that he is a conspiracy theorist himself and he's the deputy director of the FBI. Not the fact that he's an election denier and he's the deputy director of the FBI, not the fact that he has talked religiously saying that there is no systemic racism in policing and police departments.
But this niche group of people get to focus on. Oh, but Dan Mondino doesn't want to go to work anymore because he's mad, Like, who.
Gives a shit?
I don't understand why this is even a subject. Second, here's the hypocrisy. If we're so concerned about sexual abuse, let me just tell you guys about Southwest Key Programs. They were the largest shelter of migrants across this country. They had multiple shelters throughout the country. There were multiple accusations of sexual abuse of minors that took place at this quote unquote nonprofit which was not really a nonprofit.
In March, the Trump administration completely shut down a Biden era lawsuit that would have sought to hold this conglomerate of shelters responsible for what they did. If we're so concerned about sexual abuse, where the entire is the breaking news banner for that? There is none, Because who cares about migrant children. That's not the issue. That's not the sexy thing. This shelter they got billions in federal contracts for this abuse that allegedly took place during Trump's family
separation policies in twenty seventeen to twenty eighteen. They capitalized off migrant children. So this country allowed migrant children to become a billion dollar industry. They allowed children to become a part of a business. So miss me with the
idea that these people care about the well being of children. Furthermore, if we're so concerned about sexual abuse, there were multiple reports in twenty sixteen of Donald Trump going into beauty pageants where girls as young as fifteen years old were getting dressed and they were obligated to greet him and meet him, and him making completely inappropriate marks and remarks and inappropriate gestures talking about these girls. If we're so
concerned about sexual abuse, then let's focus on that. But that is not the real concern. Their concern, as Dan Manzino has said, is to own the Libs. I don't even know what that means, but it's some stupid, asinine bullshit that these right wing extremists say. I don't even get the point of it. So I'm frustrated. I don't even care about his base. They don't frustrate me anymore.
What I'm frustrated with is the way the media is being led by the nose, by this tiny group of people, and they talk about it as though it is normal. I'm not saying that Epstein case is not important. Let
the DJ pursue it. I'm saying, there is no way, given what's happening in Gaza right now, speaking if we're so concerned about children, the well being of children, the tens of thousands of kids who are dying there, considering what's happening in Sudan right now, and the children who are dying there, considering what's happening in Kenya right now. There are a lot of stories that we should be
focused on. This is not one of them. And quite frankly, Congressman Hank Johnson, you know, did this whole video of him playing the guitar and I'm thinking talking about the Epstein case, and I just thought how insulting that has to feel to constituents who are not focused on Epstein. And it just feels like a moment that we are missing, the moment. You're even on the democratic side, you're letting them lead you around the nose for these social media
stunts and that, ain't it. That is not the thing that's going to help people out. To Angela's point about the big badass bill, is that what you call it, The big badass bill like that deserve more attention. If we're so concerned about kids, let's talk about the children who will literally die because of this bill, the children who will be kicked off, who won't have caregivers, who won't have health insurance.
So it's bullshit to me. Andrew, Sorry, I went on.
Tell us how you really feel. I mean, I felt you You and Angela both there and I don't disagree. But I will say, as it relates to the political moment,
is what is making this really outsized? Obviously over the coverage, which I think is overblown, but I think one of the things that's driving its nature is that there have been very few things, In fact, I can't think of one where Donald Trump's base has openly criticized, parted with him, and are even damned trying to hold the Attorney General accountable by saying she ought to be removed from office
or resign over this Epstein thing. And so the question I think is becoming does this create a wedge issue between Donald Trump and his really critical base, important for not just his election but probably going to be critical to the mitchruns as well. Does it create an opening And I'm of two minds. One, I don't think that there is a single one of these conspiracy theorists who is an available voter for Democrats. I don't think that
is necessarily always what it would have been. But the Democratic Party that today is the standard bearer for the status quo and the defender of all institutions versus the Democratic Party, at least sections of it, who used to openly question conspiracies that were going on within the government, cover ups that were taking place, the misuse of power, going after black civil rights leaders, social justice leaders, and using the government's instruments as cudgels to whip those people
into submission. There was once a Democratic Party that raised those issues loud, repeated. You couldn't you couldn't refocus members of the CBC twenty years ago, thirty years ago going ham over the CIA and their involvement and the introduction of narcotics into the black community.
Right.
You could ask them anything and they would have drove it right back to that issue. But today's Democratic Party appears to have adopted as its platform the defender of all existing institutions, regardless of how corrupt they may have been and what damage they may have done to our community. So I don't think that conspiracy theories right now are part of the Democratic coalition, and I don't believe that
they are available voters. But I do think that what this moment might create, should these people's animosities be real, is that it could have the effect of suppressing some of these white male voters and others who turned out for Donald Trump, who traditionally don't turn out to vote at all. If that has the effect of keeping some of them home, then I think fine, drive a niche market a campaign to keep them out of the process, so long as they're willing to opt themselves out of
the process because their conspiracy theories didn't pan out. But if any Democrat running for office decides to wholesale redirect their effort toward in Epstein and release the documents, you are on your way to losing. Because, as Tiffany and Angela have already so aptly pointed out, that is not what our people are talking about. That's not what's keeping
them up at night. It doesn't inspire them and it doesn't quite frankly distract them either, because they're not really paying that kind of attention to Jeffrey Epstein or Jillian his associate, who is serving time. Maxwell, who I think is in Talla, hassee serving time last time I checked.
She's the only person who served time out of that whole thing, the woman and all of this is the only person who served time. But she did serve as someone who was facilitating these matchups. The question is what she's just doing this for mister Epstein or what she doing this for other parties as well?
Right, and guess what? And again, legitimate questions are to be asked on all those sides. I think that there are legitimate questions about the US attorney who decided to give Epstein a cushy deal in the first place, that broke the Miami Herald, who broke the news on this
thing and busted it wide open. But we would be I'm hearing people talk about the Democrats out to seize this moment as for the midterms, and I am very concerned that Democratic policy makers and elected officials who are pursuing re election and the consultants who guide those campaigns. I am very concerned that they are so weak need about what is going to get Democrats back in power, that they may be willing to co op this whole
storyline of Epstein and release the files. And I think that would be a death ridden mistake and put the nail on the coughing to whether or not there is an opposition party to be spoken of after these midterm elections.
Wow.
I don't know that I disagree with that, but I think.
I think it's a bad calculation.
Yeah, I think that if they are to rest their laurels on just releasing the files, then yes, But if they use it as a wedge issue to create space around what is fact versus fiction, I actually think it's smart and broken promises, Like you know, yes, he broke this promise to you, but let me show you all the other promises.
He broke to you. He's broken with you.
And I feel like I'm being a hypocrite right now. And I can feel Tip's eyes burning about to say I hold in my cheek because what I'm about to say is, I don't know if neutralization of those voters is as significant as converting them, and and there and
I and I don't know. I was thinking that, Yeah, it's it's hard because I think that it's a tall order, It's a really tall order, because they would rather believe to death in white so premiacy, then to believe that they have anything in common with folks who look like us, or any immigrant family or whatever.
So it's hard.
But I do think that when we are in desperate times, and if we are honest, we have to acknowledge we are in really desperate times, in really dire circumstances, we've got to find allies that make the coalition.
Huh.
That's why we got to convert our voters. We have people who will be with us if they show up to vote.
Yes.
This is what the Harris campaign, and this is what every campaign prior to her has done. They've identified these quote, middle of the road folks who may share common calls with us on a thing, and believed mistakenly that those folks will adopt us wholesale when given the other option. And they've proven time and time and again no matter where they have exception with Donald Trump, they still go
home to him. And so if we're talking about limited resources and how to spend those, I would never ever suggest that a democratic campaign take their precious resources and target them towards what they think is this maybe movable middle of people who are now disrupted by a broken
promise over Epstein and convert them to their voters. If you're going to convert voters, go to the black voters down the street and the Latino voters and the white liberal voters who have checked out of the process and are choosing not to show up, and give them a
reason to show up. And I bet that the message that they deliver on healthcare, on this big ass bad bill that's going to that has created the largest shift in wealth that we have ever seen in the history of the United States, creating one so large that the people who built the pyramids and the pharaohs themselves had a less divide and wealth than we do today between our oligards and we're working people.
Did you create that? I like that. That's a good one.
But this is this is what this is that is saleable. Talk about the stuff that the majority of Americans disagree with, both Trump voters and the middle of the road voters and Democrats. And that's the bill that they just passed that's gonna put all us in the poor house before we know it. Well, obviously you can tell we got a lot more to say on this. Let's pay some bills and pick it up. On the other side, don't want to miss this.
Well, here's the only thing I'm saying. I hear that I agree with that.
I'm not saying, take your money Democratic Candidate X and spend it on Epstein. What I'm suggesting is that we don't let this pass by though, either because if the roles are reversed and this was the Democratic Party doing this, all they would want a special committee and they should do that. They should do some of that. But I'm
not saying don't spend a dollar on it. Talking heads should be talking about it, like, what is there tie, I'm not saying that there is anything, but you call into doubt everything that they are sitting with, every promise that he's broken and this is one of many. Emphasize this one is one of many, and then name five.
Or six others.
Just from a strategic standpoint, that is smart because at some point, at some point, you would think they have to start seeing the lie for what it is. It didn't work, even though he was in office from sixteen to twenty didn't work, or seventeen to twenty didn't work.
They didn't buy it. I don't know why they didn't buy it.
I gave it, they didn't didn't. They determined that they didn't care. And I think the same is true here that if there is a connection in.
My marrying and it's and it's and it is right.
They care about this one of all the things.
I don't know that do we have Speaker Johnson's clip. I'm just curious do we have?
We should pull that up, But Angela, just to find a lot, I think that your point is well, I think it's right. Definitely, don't let this thing slip by. If there is a if there is a whole to be manipulated to create a greater one.
Not even manipulation, it is a And this is my whole point.
I think that one of the things that they do poorly that we don't do when we when the facts and the truth and what is right is on our side, we still don't utilize it.
And I don't get why, Like I.
Think telling them about his lives is going to do it. If we are going to connect an issue, it needs to be to the economy people are going to vote on their wallets come.
That novel here of that, because I'm not All I'm.
Saying is I don't think that. I don't believe that the strategy of stringing along all of his letdowns and lies is going to be the way forward. They are aware of them, they are complicit with them. They have forgiven them, or they have said they don't matter up until this issue. And I'm saying, on this issue, I would say Donald Trump again is proven that he is
just for himself. And the fact that budget bill did X, Y and Z that that that that reiterates the facts, that makes plain to us He's willing to close our hospitals. He's willing to take our hospital.
Didn't they don't care about our say close your hospital.
What I'm saying our I mean in my community.
I know I'm saying. Talk to them other ones, it's their hospitals.
It is absolutely But to them, if it's their community, it's he's willing to close our hospital.
When they hear you say our, they don't they think good.
I'm not saying. If I'm the voice of the voter, wherever that voter is, they are they are reflecting on what they have lost. I want them to know what is being taken from them, because they don't seem to care about his lies, his missteps, and his mispromises. But when I see people in the stores with their calculators and their cell phones price comparing toilet tissue and paper towel, I know that this is going to be an economic
collection again. And if we get sidetracked and run down the wrong road, make the wrong connections, draw the wrong parallels, we are going to find ourselves out of office yet again.
I think I think you're both making a legitimate point. I think Angelia will correct me if I'm wrong. But I think what Angela is saying, which because I did when you said that, I was like, hmm, I don't know how I feel about celebrating people sitting out the price, even if they are people who disagree with me. So I think, Angela, you're saying, instead of, you know, just
discarding them, let's try to convert them. And at first I was with you, but then hearing Andrew, I'm like, yes, that presupposes that they are convertible, and they are not. This is not a political party, this is a political cult. It's a lifestyle cult.
But the cult has fractures.
Well, all groups have fractures. I don't know if it's fractured enough.
I don't know either.
I know it's not fractured enough that they would ever come to R side. There's been enough data to support that for the past ten years in this society. We've even seen video evidence. If I can find it, I'll play it on a later episode. But there was actually a group of people who had Trump supporters, and they were posing questions to them, and they had faked audio.
It was like AI and they had faked all these things that Donald Trump said, and he talked about sleeping with his daughter, He talked about the the most obnoxious things, and one by one they all found a way to excuse it, to apologize for it. Even people who have been fired from their jobs, who have been directly impacted, have said, I do not regret my vote. I just didn't think it would happen to me. You voted for it to happen to someone else, but you didn't think
it would happen to you. And even when it does happen to you, you are still resolute. You are so convicted, and that they're united in our impression you're so convicted in your belief that you need, that you ought to have, that you deserve and that we do not, that you're willing to cut off a limb just to make sure that we don't have. So I get your point, I just don't I know that they are not convertible.
So what's our path? And ask this?
So what I'm saying is Andrew and tif Uh, my question is, if you don't think that they're gettable, that they're not convertible, what is the path forward?
Because we have the math, a mathis so what's the path forward? Is it going to the ninety million? What is it like?
What motivating ore is to what ends motivating voter?
So let's be very clear.
We do have the numbers.
We do have the numbers when their regular base shows up. You see what Donald Trump benefited from.
Was he he had a hyper sized, uh white production of white Yeah, that.
Is not the normal course of white voters in this country. He juiced it. So when I say keep them home, I'm saying, y'all weren't interested before, go back to being non interested. I absolutely do care about what voter suppression looks like. When they suppress our vote they change the laws, right, they make it illegal for us to access it. What I'm talking about is not a llegal means by which
to suppress a vote. That's not my issue. I'm saying, you thought you bought into a system by buying Donald aprothetic that reflected what you think, your values, your your best interests, and now it's proven that that ain't true for you on this issue of Epstein, whatever that be. All these guys are losers. Don't support any of them. And guess what, that's not a hard argument. That's what they believe before and that's what they believe now, except except for Donald Trump.
But you're the path forward.
Democratic voters who are already our voters but have chosen.
But I guess I'm asking that gets us to a win.
That okay, But what I'm asking is in the current infrastructure that we have, in the Democratic Party that exists in this country, and in the Maga cult that exists in this country, in the big bucket of apathetic people that exist in this country, do you think that is a logical path forward that can produce a tangible success when it comes to policy and participation?
Okay, absolutely, guess what that that produced, that produced Joe Biden and twenty twenty. What produced Joe Biden was the fact that Republicans who had been there for him in twenty sixteen decided they were not going to be there in twenty twenty. What did they do? They sat at home. By the way, that is also the gateway that gave us Barack Obama. The same white voters who showed up to.
Put they stayed home in twenty.
Twenty four did not decide that they were going to block Obama from becoming president. They stayed home.
Some of them voted for Barack Obama.
That may be true, but I'm telling you the victory doesn't.
Yeah, but not in number. Overwhelmingly.
They stayed home in two thousand and eight, in two thousands, well, but there were vertibles. Well, I don't know that they were convertibles. There were people who were frustrated with the Bush administration. So it wasn't necessarily a vote for Obama, but a vote against the party that.
Existed, the same thing that we may be going tours now. It could be a coalition of people who are voting against what they thought they were.
I don't I think I'm a playbill. Almost twenty years old. Now, I don't know what.
We need to throw ship at the wall to see what sticks. That's the playbook, his ship.
We need our own ship at his ship. But it sounds like.
You are hopeful, like you face, I.
Am desperate, is what you're Okay, that's desperate answer to get people. I am not. Let me make sure that everybody p s a everybody.
I am not opposed to getting black people out to the post. I am not opposed to getting brown people out to the polls. I am not opposed to getting Indigenous people out to the post. What I'm saying is, with all of that, we still need to make sure we have more numbers. Andrew is saying we to include white people today. That's a new breaking news on this show. That's fine, Andrew. I'm with we being white people too great.
But I'm just saying this is, this is, this has been our map by the way to victory every cycle, juicing our voters over theres.
But your hour is very loose in a way that was confusing.
I'm saying.
I'm saying this is the difference as a democratic voter.
That's not what I'm saying. Our let me define it. Real quick. Yeah, our are the voters who, if they vote, they will vote for Democrats.
Okay, so what she said.
That's not a Democratic voter.
Yes, I understand, but it makes your difference.
It's a big difference.
So what is it then?
Who's the power is somebody who will vote for it.
It doesn't matter if Democrat, if your party, but if you vote, you will vote for.
But includes white people.
And he's not speaking right. He's not speaking from a race perspective. He's speaking from a political perspective.
I'm right, And so I want to contrast that voter, that voter who if they vote, they will vote for the Democrat. I want to contrast that voter with a voter who has to be persuaded. A voter who has to be persuaded is one who is right now inclined to supporting Donald Trump, probably has and is up until
this point, up until this fisher has arrived. That persuadable voter one has to make has to draw the conclusion that they're in a better bed if they switch over and vote for the Democrat than they would have on the whole. Taking the totality of their interest into consideration, then they would be if they stayed with Donald Trump or state with the Republicans, or they could also draw the conclusion that they're pissed as hell with the Republicans.
They don't sanction what they did on Epstein or maybe some other issue, and they say I'm staying home. I think we underestimate the power of a voter who is determined to vote for Democrats don't easily get persuaded to change their vote to a Republican and vice versa. I will never so long as I live and have a brain to think with and hard to care with, I don't think I'll ever be in common cause with today's Republican party. I don't care how mad I get with Democrats.
I may vote for a third party, I may not vote at all on that particular race. But to tell me to be bad at Democrats on this issue and then go wholesale to the other side, who's ninety nine percent agenda is against me, it's tom foolish. It is.
So you're saying there's a pathway on the other side. I think Angela is kind of saying the same thing. Out of desperation, let's try to get whomever we can.
I'm just saying we don't have to be desperate and make the choice to go persuadable.
I get the nuance you're saying, like tap into people who are receptive.
To We're already with you, yes, right, because.
You and I agree that anybody who's a Trumper.
Is not convertible.
It is not convertible.
And I think Angela correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying, let's try to get everybody, including them. Let's try to get everybody.
And I'm not saying starting with them.
I hope I'll never clearly abandon your base, and by base, I don't mean just the people who turned out in this last election. Yes, if there is another election, we need to have all hands on days.
I think Democrats interpret that message of persuadable and go get everybody to mean that ninety percent of their budgets around who they talk to.
Done.
But that's why I'm saying that the message must be clear here to the extent. By the way, I'm not saying every person to a person who is with Donald Trump can't be converted. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they cannot be converted, and large enough numbers to make an electoral difference, and that's what matters at the end of the day. So the numbers that make a difference are your voters going to the polls.
That's why the negotiation of Democrats and candidates make every time when they're in cycle is whether they spend their money toward getting voters who are not with them but persuading them to their side to now vote, or doubling down on your current base of voters and juicing that
number to the best of your ability. Democrats in my state have large we believed that the best investment is and taking those precious resources and spending it toward what you believe is the movable middle, I think, and every time that lesson has taught us a loss.
I think.
My frustration with this conversation is we are talking about an election that's not currently happening, and all I'm talking about right now is getting these folks aligned with the with us on other issues so that we can proactively fight and then put up what an alternative to what this disaster.
Is looks like.
Right now, we keep talking about an election that I want to be honest with people, we don't know is going to happen.
It is scheduled. It is scheduled.
It is scheduled across it's scheduled.
But I'm just saying, I know you mean, I'm saying that there are people who are DOCA recipients, who are in holding facilities and ready to be deported. I'm saying that the rule of law does not matter. Whether it's about immigration, or it's about our civil rights, or it's about labor, it doesn't matter. Like everything is on the chopping block, and at the very least, maybe if we pull together right now, we can stop some of the hemorrhaging.
I'm not at the election yet, so I mean, I'm happy to have an election conversation, but I think that's foolish because there are so many fights that we have to have to even get there and to even.
Protect whether or not election day would be here for us to go cast a ballot.
Don't go anywhere, guys, because we're shifting focused to midterms. I think gonna happen or not, let's get into it. We'll see on the other side. So I definitely I understand what Jaday and Angela completely because you brought it up. I want to punctuate this point about midterms, because we talked about this last week on the podcast, and producer Nick is telling us we have like ten minutes left, so I'll be brief so we can get to our CCA's.
But we see already Republicans cheating in Texas. They are the Republican control legislature is redrawing the maps. And so what Republicans would say is, well, how can you say that we had more people vote in the last election in the time before. And yes, you have more people voting, but they're voting in jerrymandered congressional districts. And jerry mandering is something that's practiced by both parties. It's not illegal, but racial jerry mandering is. And those two twin components
are often right exactly those two twins. Well, they're still technically illegal. But what's illegal?
Now, what's the law the Civil.
Rights Division that would normally look at these maps and tell them.
That they have reclassed white people as the victim class, and the Civil Rights Division at the DLJ. And so I take your point Angela, where you're saying, we're talking about an election that's not here and that may not happen in the terms of how we experience elections to happen. We've never really had free and fair elections, but it has been in boldened now where they're throwing everything at
the bit. My perspective on that ridge, even if Democrats were to seize control of the House, the Senate, and some state legislatures across the country, I don't know that this party, even given a modicum of power, is ready to meet the moment to combat what we're seeing happening by the Trump administration. I'm not saying to abandon hope. I'm not saying don't vote. I think, to Angelo's point, we have to fight with everything we've got everywhere we
can fight. I want to make that clear. I reach y'all's comments that y'all tired of me and the doom and gloom. Fine, I'm trying to say there is something that can be done. I'm not encouraging or discouraging action from anyone. I just don't know, when you ask what the path forward is, I don't know that there is a path to stop what we're seeing. I'm a bit exhausted. These were the things that we grew up reading about are still happening in our lifetimes. The things that we've battled,
the things that we've seen happen. Mandatory minimums are back mass and Carson will once again increase if you look at Project twenty twenty five as a guide. So I just don't know that there's a path to a better tomorrow. The only path I can focus on is a path to shelter and safety for our people. And when I
say our people, I mean our community. And if we can ally if fifty or fifty two percent of Latino men voted for Donald Trump, I'm certainly willing to ally with the forty eight percent who did not, and I would extend that to all communities across which I think is your point.
Andrew Well, I would just say, as a matter of not my opinion, but of fact, if Democrats were to become the majority party inside the House of Representatives, as they have under Hakim Jeffrey's leadership, the Speaker designee of the House of Representatives, should Democrats gain control, he has been able to hold his party to vote to a person every Democrat against the Republican's agenda. So far in this as an opposition party, they ain't been the greatest
on messaging. I have issues with the fact that they should do more alternative programming opposite what Trump's doing. When he signed that build better, build badly, build that will burnish all of us, they should have had counter programming. I got my issues, but I know this much. There were speakers of the House that could not do could not match what he's been able to do to this point by keeping all Democrats voting the exact same way.
If he's able to carry that into leadership as the Speaker of the House, he can stop Donald Trump's agenda wholesale, should it have anything to do with a piece of legislation that needs to be passed through both the House the Senate and then signed into law by the President, they could bring their legislative agenda to a complete and
total halt. Suddenly, when they gain control, they can appoint chairmans of committees that can launch investigations across the broad swipe of this government, and they can barrel this administration and investigations. Now, the Supreme Court may have made Donald trumpet king, but everybody under him can be punished by the law, can be jailed, can be prosecuted if they run a foul of the law. So a Department of Justice that says ignore the orders of a judge or a just right.
That that is what I swear. I was sitting here thinking, so let's just say that he's gonna be right. So they run investigations, they find him guilty, I would direct you to the Muller Report.
Put him to the work of doing it.
I think, I think, Andrew, this is this is where I think we get it wrong.
I mean, I really do that.
Opposed to what we have today, which is we can put masks up and hold signs up during a speech but have no power to do anything.
Well, what I think that.
I think that my issue is, in order for us to change what is happening, we have to accept what is. And I think some of the things that we keep putting up as strategies to combat what's going on is denial of what is actually happening.
Yes it is, Andrew, you can shake your head.
But I'm saying, like, if you keep coming up with solutions that would work in ordinary circumstances, or we're gonna engage in oversight, We're going to pass legislation to do He's still got to sign a bill into law.
He's not going to sign it into law.
No, law. There will be no law.
There's not law now, there's not. Yes, there's not.
There's lawlessness now because Republicans run rough shot over the government at every level.
Andrew, that's why, Andrews.
Let me.
Let me just make sure that.
We just no lot of that.
That I'm not saying something different.
I'm saying and as our friends Vince will say, I am in violent agreement with you on that and to that point, because there is rampant lawlessness. Because the folks on January sixth, twenty twenty one are now literally in the freaking cabinet, we have a different set of circumstances.
This is wartime now. This ain't no time to pass your little bill that he's not gonna sign.
This is not your.
Time to hold a special have a special committee and an oversight responsibility around his God. This ain't the time to go knock on the doors of the Department Education is about to be defunded and hope they'll let you in. This ain't the time to go and try to sit down and meet with him and come let us reason.
Everything you're talking about is wellowed persist, because there's a way I'm not done. No accountability there's exactly.
And the accountability, No, the accountability won't change in a year and a half when maybe my could potential twenty twenty six elections come up.
I don't think that. I don't think that's what time it is. I think the time is now inaccurate. It's not How is it accurate?
Because where you are failing to take into consideration, I'm not I'm not talking about Democrats advancing any legislation. I don't think that'll do anything other than investigate the mother put people in jail who are breaking the law.
And he's gonna let them out of jail.
Stand up the third that's fine, put into the work line.
It put Andrew, it's not fine.
And I'm telling you that's what I'm.
Saying, until until they have to do it, until they're out of office.
And I was presuming that they're going to be out of office. So I guess all I'm saying is because let me.
There are some bedrocks to the system.
Andrew, the bad rocks have been shook.
To their own because they are in total and complete control.
Yes, and that's not going to change.
The Supreme Court makeup is not going to change. Or three branches, Andrew, the three branches are compromised.
The three branches are compromised because Republicans control all Yes, and Andrew, Wait a minute. As a matter of factor and not an opinion, Andrew, is that if Democrats hold control, they are one of the one third that makes up the governing structure of the country. I hear you saying that everybody's.
Rolling the government, which puts us in the constitutional crisis we're in right now. He's defied the constitution because there's in a constitutional crisis to him, No, Andrew, even with the opposition, Andrew, if the Democrats get control of the House, they might they likely won't get control of the Senate. They still are going to be in a constitutional crisis if the Democrats get control of the Senate.
But it is a constitutional not.
A constitutional executive. Democrats only control one bud. It is not a constitutional crisis, Andrew.
It is if you decide, all that require is required for a constitutional crisis is for one branch of government to defy the orders of another. It is happening every single day. The other thing that I want you to consider, maybe we talk about it next time. They getting ready to do a constitutional.
Convention and then and then well is it not good?
Not good?
But let me it's not good to open it in.
A long time, and there are a lot of people in.
The legislats that are going to rough shot over everything public and lead, Yes, what.
I think because because unfortunately we're out of time, guys, I think we can either pick this up on the mini pod because I think this is a good I think what you two are representing our factions on our side of the divide, because I find myself getting frustrated with things.
Both of y'all are saying and agreeing with things.
Both of y'all are hands so and I think that there's that we all are saying the same thing on some level. So with that, unfortunately we do have to move to CCAS and we're doing this normally. We will let the conversation go for the folks listening and watching, but Angela has a flight, we have more to record.
It's all good. We got to be disciplined do with our time.
I guess, yes, and then we can move it.
Forward, which is simply that there are some dead rocks that if a conversation is supposed to happen collesially that have to be under recognition. We don't get the makeup facts. Facts, we have opinions. Facts should be immutable, and we're all entitled to an opinion, but we're not entitled to our own facts. And I do think that I hope this bay continues, not only on this platform, but wherever you are. I hope you are assessing what options you have to hold your elected officials accountable.
Love it handle well?
Yes, I hope that people are not having fact free debates at home. We certainly don't do it on this podcast. But I would also say I am hopeful that folks will take the time I have m a sound like you today tip to read what's really going on and make an assessment, even spiritually, about where you think we are. I don't think that things are going to be as fixable just with one election, because our democracy has essentially
been unraveled in seven months time. So I'm hoping that people will really see how they can lean in what they feel called to do and push. It's going to take all hands in, all great minds and innovation on deck to make it through this one.
My CTA is just curating moments of joy. I wants to thank everyone for agreeing with Andrew and me and our CTA from last week for the speakerphone Angela, Yeah, the poll, the data is and speakerphones are out.
That's it.
Walking down the street, we're doing that.
Like even yesterday, I'm like, I feel like I'm being trolled because I said this, and now everybody around me is on a speakerphone. So I want to thank you guys for weighing in. I also want to thank you all for weighing in with all your comments about Angela's glasses, which I get to see in person. Everyone loves your glasses. They were like, Angela, so you got those glasses. So I want to thank you all for that. So this is just my joyful moment saying thank you for agreeing
with me because that felt nice. Uh, And to invite you all to curate moments of joy because whatever the path forward is, if it's OVA in five years, five months, or whatever, treat each day like it's your last. Tell the folks you love them. Do what makes you feel good as long as it le and just you know, that's my whole thing. If it don't make me smile or laugh, I don't want no parts of it.
There it is curate joy and as always we want to remind everyone to please leave us a review and subscribe to Native lampod. We're available on all podcast platforms and YouTube of course. And did you know that Native lampod is part of a podcast network called Reason Choice Media. You should know that after this episode, We've got a
lot of colleagues over there. Jamel Hill is on Reasent Choice Media Network with her show Politics, and se Cup on her show with Off the Cups cupp Be sure to check out those and don't forget to follow us on social media and subscribe to our text our email lists on native lampod dot com. We are of course Angel Rah, Tiffany Cross, and I'm Andrew Gilliam. Welcome home, y'all. There are four hundred and seventy four days until the inevitable mid term elections.
If we can keep it wealthy.
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