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Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
If you believe that there is a law, please tell me, because we just had the voting rights that gut it. So please tell me what law, particularly in the South, previns us from happening. And I just want to just one bit of it. Like I was in the General Assembly in South Carolina when we drew these lines, and so I've actually seen these lines be drawn.
And what I'm.
Absolutely telling you is places like Tim Scott's old South Carolina first District right where he seeded black voters to Jim Clyburn. That's exactly what he did. It made Jim Cliburn's district more African American. It made Tim Scott's district more white so that people would vote for them.
Change that?
Do you change it by running away and delaying the process and.
Not elected commissioners.
Vote on it? Yeah, that's that. Just again, everybody we were talking about in the main episode of Native Lampot this week, this whole redistricting fight that's happening around the country. What's at stake? And Frankly what's the right way to go. We've seen members of the legislature.
Andrew, this is Native Lampod. Welcome home, y'all. This and mini pod. We just jumped right.
Why should I say Native lamp welcome.
We didn't welcome. We just were like Also in the main episode.
Was yeah, yeah, we skipped the part welcome home everybody. This is uh the mini pod this week for Native Lampod. We're acting. We're acting like y'all know exactly what's going on. I'm Andrew Gillum co host along with Angela Rye and an Abstenia, our sister Tiffany Tippany Cross who was in the congo.
We had a lot to say. So Tif we actually glad you got here today because we need to take all your time. We were claiming your time today. Andrew, You know what, this reminded me of starting a podcast like that. Reminded me of picking up the phone with Eddie Rakhas.
Because he when you literally conversation yes.
So anyway, so anyway what yeah, what do.
You say, daddy? Where are you coming back from?
Yeah, bring me to the top of the conversation.
Well, we are talking about redistricting and we're trying not to make this topic glaze over everybody's eyes and brows by making it frankly, as front and center and as local as we can. Right there, you saw the clip of our good friend Bacari Sellers, who is a former member of the South Carolina Legislature, talking about what his experience was drawing districts in that state, House districts, center districts,
and of course congressional districts and that state. And his last point of that video he was making to response to the question of how should these maps be drawn? Rather than politically it's his argument was for drawing these maps using a non partisan redistricting commission to do it different than what the State of Texas is the attempting to do right now, which is to basically have the legislature,
a political body, draw the congressional districts. Angela, where do you put the merits of independent versus political drawing of lines?
So I think again, you know how so next year is going to be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the declaration of independence. So there's this idea that, like, we hold these truths, but who holds these truths?
Right?
Like every if the truths weren't designed to be held by everyone. At what point are they held by everyone? And I think what is incredible about our friends who are institutionalists like Bakari, is there's, you know, this aspiration that we are striving to get to and we think that if we put people in position to think the way they ought, then they will do the things they
ought to do. But that's not always the case. So when you talk about these independent commissions, Andrew, the question becomes, you know, are the independent politically? This woman who he was arguing with on on CNN talks about, well, now we have AI to draw maps. AI has a bias because there's someone who built they have right that, so now it carries their bias. If someone is independent politically,
well where do they lean economically? Do they believe people who are poor or disenfranchised or incarcerated deserve to also have a vote in Congress? And a lot of people don't understand that people are counted for the sake of population in congressional and state districts when they're incarcerated, But a lot of them still don't have a vote if the laws say so in their state. What is my point, you can be independent and bipartisan or nonpartisan and still
have bias. I for one, in this country, especially right now, while fascists run the government, while J sixers are running around the country imp implementing their will at their will, even doging their will an upon us, I struggle with the idea that an independent commission can do the right thing. We have seen where members of Congress, particularly my former bosses CBC members, have been harmed by these independent commissions.
Bacari brought up something where he talked about Congressman Clyburn. Congressman Clyburn, who I love, has been criticized often for maintaining a district that I believe if someone could fact check this on the show and text it to me, but I believe his district is at least sixty percent black.
I do want to triple check that, because a lot of members of Congress say at this point, mister Cliburn really doesn't need a sixty percent plus black district because of how much he's impacted South Carolina all the things that he's done. Well, mister Cliburn would argue, well, this is for the person who comes after me, right, And some people would still say, well, he doesn't need it. Maybe it's fifty, maybe it's forty. On the on the
other hand, I promise you I'm going somewhere. On the other hand, Congressman Bobby Scott has said, I don't need a fifty sixty seventy percent black district. Carve up my district so it's more geographically aligned and in tune with what we need to get accomplished geographically. Because I could win with a thirty five forty percent black district. Let's create another black district in Virginia, which they've done so
now Jennifer McClellan occupies that seat. It was a seat that was formerly held by Donald mckeechen, who got rest. His soul is no longer with us, lolo. I appreciate that, but it was for mister Cliburn, not Thompson. So all good there. I think we only have one majority district in Mississippi period. But I'm actually looking for the numbers for mister Cliburn because their a position is that there
could be two majority minority districts in South Carolina. My point in saying all of that is, so mister Cliburn is forty seven percent black, and so I don't know what the argument has been historically. I know before it was they could at least carve out one more black district. He agrees with that, but for whatever reason, that number was higher. So I'm saying all that to say independent or not, it's never truly independent AI or not. It
doesn't mean that it's no longer biased. But I think right now what we are having to reckon with is our permanent interest. That means that we have to move in our reality. It's a reality of war. It is not an ideal It is an ideology war, but it's not an ideal situation. We're not in an ideal situation, so we shouldn't have ideal commissions.
That's fair, I mean, I think so in an equalized in a righteous world, where all things, you know, were equal, when people follow the law and didn't detempt to manipulate the laws to their own political advantage, which is what
we're up against right now. The long term impact of allowing the Texas legislature to reach draw this district and we draw the lines in the rules to advantage them by five seats if they're in results and they're in goal, may be the demise of the democracy as we know it, meaning those members can be holdouts when it comes around to the next point of counting the electoral college and they say we reject you know, there's a majority there to reject what the electoral college members say and leave
Donald Trump in office. We've never had that scenario, but we also never had that scenario tested. And right now under these lawless folks who are so power hungry, we don't really know what we will get as a result of the conundrum. I think we find ourselves, particularly those of us who are kind of good government champions, you know, that we should set the rules to be fair and equitable and then let how the politics of it play out.
Is that in many democratic states they have already gone the route of setting up these independent, these quote independent redistricting commissions, seeding away the power of the governor or the legislature from being able to bigfoot and have their way over these commissions. Well republican states, including you know in my own, they continue to allow the political drawing of lines. They have no interest in good government. Their only interest is in maintaining and keeping power, not to
ensure that we've got a fair and representative democracy. And so we're hearing from democratic governors across the country saying, hey, look, if y'all have changed in the rules, we're willing to
meet you there. We will fight you based off of those rules being changed, except not being able to do it unilaterally because they've got these redistrict commissions that are right now empowered to do what it is that they've been tasked with doing, which is to draw these districts, and to do so without any partisan interest whatsoever, but rather than fairness around those maps. So democratic governors are in many ways already handicapped in this fight because they
are bound by these redistrict commissions. I think what made Kathy Hochel so distinct, as we've heard her speak this week, is that they too have a Registrian Commission, which she is prepared to disband, yeah, in concert with other legislative bodies, so that they will have the ability to do with the Republicans in Texas are doing. What's just to say, fine, we'll just draw Republicans right out of their seats and make sure that we only create seats that are accessible
by Democrats. Is it the is it the long term fair thing to do? Or is it the right thing in this moment to do to eventually save off this attack on democracy?
Can she do that? Andrew? For those listening at home that are saying, if there's an independent commission that was stood up like by the state legislature, I know all of these states are different. Who has the authority in New York, for example, to do this? And is it different for Gavin? We have a clip for him.
Yes, I think we do have a clip of Gavin and we should actually hear that on the other side of this. But it does matter how they are stood up. And some states it's been by referendum, and the voters by referendum and changing the constitution through referendum have decided what the process is. And in other states, the legislature
itself have established these commissions. And if they are in those cases established by the legislature or by an order of the governor, the institution that established them are the institutions that can dissolve or reform them in many cases, So in my state it might be through constitutional amendment, and Texas it appears that the legislature maintains power, and New York it sounds like the legislature through a legislative process can reform that process, but I have to take it.
I've got to look deeper into the government the statutes. But if the governor is saying so, when the legislative branch is concurring, it sounds to me like the legislative process is where the reform would take place.
And yeah, okay, So then do they conven a special session just like.
I think they are in session? So it would be a matter of them and they control both the House and the Senate there in New York, in New York and New York the state of New York, that would would allow allowed them to do this and to do it in concert with the law without subverting the law.
Okay, but we should hear from California.
California, because I think there's a different test there, even though that is the most populous state and probably the state that could yield the most seats. The last estimation I heard was potential of nine seats being made permanently democratic if the California legislature were to enforce a new partisan map that would give Democrats the advantage up to nine seats. Trumping upon the pardon the pund trumping, Trump's
effort in Texas, which well, you'll five seats. Let's play that clip from California.
You know, California is one of several blue states now looking to counter at Texas and President Trump's plan.
Here's what we know.
The governor wants new maps to go before voters in November, but today candidate for governor Steve Hilton announced heam plans to file legal action to block redistricting if the governor moves forward. Hilton calls the move a power grab by state democrats.
Districts should be drawn by an independent commission once every ten years, crucially following a census so that you know where people live, so that the districts reflect population.
I didn't realize the the uh that the governor was trying to get it on the ballot this year. I didn't know that part of it. I thought he was trying to change it legislatively.
But yeah, and I think, but I think it's to your point. If the if the people voted for that, what the power does he have to you know, does he challenge it? It's the ballot courts. It just had Wow, it's.
Ballot so stood up by the their commission, stood up by the by the people. To a constitutional amendment probably, and now it's going back to them for their approval to change those maps. This this this cycle, and again I think the data on California, a map that was actually presented through the course of conversation this week from California, is that they can pick up nine seats were they to politically duramander the seats in the state of California.
And again that would be four more than the five that California that Texas is trying to is trying to create.
So I wanted to just look to see which states have independent commissions, which ones have political commissions, which ones have advisory commissions, and then backup commissions. There are eight states with independent commissions. There are three political commissions, three backup commissions, and four advisory commissions, which we have.
To assume the rest of the country then must be legislative.
That's correct. And so in Connecticut, for example, there's a backup commission. It says super majority, no veto and they their last map was drawn by the state court the Arizona it's an independent commission, but it doesn't tell me how it was stood up. Idaho is another one. Michigan is another one. Nonpartisan independent Montana. New Jersey has a
political commission, so that would be an interesting one. The New York has the independent Commission with the supermajority, and it says that their last map was drawn by the legislature. So what I think is interesting is which states have maps that were last drawn by legislatures to the extent that they're blue. They change. But here is the caution I'd offer you, Andrew, even in our frisky fight, you know, we own control most of the state legislation.
Oh, the majority control by Republicans.
Yeah, like super majority, Like, isn't it thirty two?
I mean, it's pretty bad. The only comfort I taken the majority Republicans control of legislatures is that in many those states the populations have not changed to the point where they get new seats in any way. So in each they.
Can eliminate the seats we see we have.
Correct, they can decrease the power and those states, I think that would throw the course into a WorldWind, because in most of those cases, there's no doubt about it, they are going to land back into the courts. The course will end up drawing maps for the country. To be quite frank and I misspoke.
It's the Republicans control a majority of seats in twenty nine state houses, which is still a majority, it's not a super majority, and thirty state Senates. And so what somebody needs to do is overlay which ones and then which of those are independently controlled. Because what you don't want to do, we're already in a constitutional crisis in
the sixtieth anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. Which you don't want to do is throw us into a state based constitutional crisis too, where power is you know, being swayed by, you know, by a whim like it's just I don't know what else.
But that's what we mean when we say in arms race, this is a total race to the bottom. If we get Republicans and democratic states replicating one another, a back
and forth and back and forth. And by the way, we can't even we can't even angela break it down to Republicans health states versus Democratic states because in some of those states they're real institutional institutionalists who have their own political reasons as to why they would or could or could not do some of these kinds of things.
It would it would create quite a conspiracy for these states Republican health states to have to get together under the direction of the White House and basically start determining where to pick up pick off, convene these conventions, convene redistricting bodies, and so on and so forth to map their power, and Democrats would have to do the same thing. We used to have people who cared enough about the letter of the law not to drive us down this road.
But where we are right now is the obsession with the concentration of power is prepared to seed and up in everything that we have once known to be true, all in the pursuit of power. And I don't know anything that has ever ended correctly, that has ended ever right in pursuit of power. Those things tend to corrupt themselves and blow up the whole system. That's just where we are.
So if we're saying that the only way for us to fight back, if we're saying, you know, we know that we would like to be an ideal, but we're keeping it all the way real. So if we're doing that, and we know that to stop the hemorrhage, we do have to consolidate power, and we yeah, we have to beat them. So isn't that still a powagraph. We still think it's a paragraph for righteousness, but it is a power graph.
It is a fight for power, there's no doubt about that. But either think what the fight that Democrats that are having that is different than Republicans. It's Democrats are not trying to rig the system. They're trying to keep a fit. They're trying to have a system a floor in place. Texas is trying to overrun the floor. They're saying, we're not interested in maps that properly give representation to the people in our state. What they're interested in is a
map that produces Republicans only. There's a big difference between representation and then a difference between power. The right representation for the purpose of power. Well, and that's what Republicans are attempting, you know, in this case to accomplish is to power grab. And I think that what Democrats are hoping for with Kathy holkal is hoping for by making this threat is that the threat of mutually assured destruction will be enough to stay the hand of other people
from following down Texas's path. Basically, it's a shot over the bout that says, Texas, if you want to go there. We'll meet you there. State of New York, and then some other state. Let's say Florida, the third largest state in the country, says, oh, New York, if you want to go there, we will meet you there. And then California wais in and says, oh, we're the most populous state in the country. If you want to go there, Florida, we'll meet you there. And what do you have right there?
The four largest states in the country have just started a war.
Well, let me ask you this. Okay, let's try to take party out of it. We're gonna we're gonna try to be an independent commission. Oh lord, let's see how well we do here. Republicans, you say, are engaging in a power grab. In order to stop the hemorrhage of said power grab, Democrats are doing.
What they are, meeting them there by saying we will draw our seats to increase power democratic power.
Okay, now, hold on, so are you opposed. Let's say that Texas is like that, bish, that's what you want to do. Now, I'm gonna get rid of all the Democrats. I'm gonna make it an all Republican you know, and say that that's what they do. You said a moment ago that we're just increasing the number of democratic seats. We're not making it all democratic. If they go all Republican, do you want New York to meet them and to be with the ships and say where all dims? Now?
I think you have to show up at a gunfight with a bazuka. Yeah. And we didn't ask for this, no.
Of course, But I'm just saying, so in your mind, is it? Is it not a power grab?
Two?
Because it's a neutralization strategy.
It is a neutralization strategy. We didn't and by the way, we didn't start this. You say it don't start not but but what But what we're saying here is is Republican says you are not the only ones who can play this game. Yeah right, they're acting as it.
So what's the floor, Andrew? I think so now you know I got anxiety. Yes, so I have anxiety about this because I'm like, I don't see this go like you know, like you know, no, I feel like it's I feel like every red line in the stand that that that they cross. Then we have another re Yes. So then if you walk this.
Out, it's mutually assured destruction. You said that's what that's what that's what this is. So then this is why Russia doesn't fire a nuclear weapon at the United States. This is why the United States does not fire a nuclear weapon at Russia or the EU, or or India because or Pakistan, because these countries all have first strike capabilities to the United States. So that's why nuclear is off the table, because we are all assured mutual destruction
if one does it. And that's why we're making this argument here is if you do it, you're going to be met by the same thing.
So is that why they pushed so we started this this this this mini pod with Bakari's clip. Is that why they started to drift or shift towards into in the commissions.
Yeah, they began the move toward independent commissions so that we didn't have this sort of warfare breakout where you just have politicians choosing their voters rather than the voters choosing their members of Congress or choosing who they want to latch.
Then voters, they're not the undoing of democracy.
I don't know what it is, and it's unfortunately been that unequal an unfair path for quite a while. We just hadn't seen this type of threatened escalation during a mid term descential meaning in the middle of the way of the dissential discential census, or were you redrawing of the line. So no facts have changed, really nothing, no facts have changed. They're simply using the numbers that are on the table to manipulate the map to their advantage. That's okay, they are.
Let me tell you this, and I know we this is a long rap time. This is my last thing. This is my last thing though, So you know, we had an election in Seattle and in King County this week. Right now as I'm talking to you, it's still next connect with a progressive white woman that may end up beating not only a black mayor, but a black mayor is a family friend here, Bruce Harrow. I'm hoping that's not true. Germai Zahalai will be the King County executive
black man. And there's also an election in Detroit, I know, in several other places. But what I want to point out, Andrew, is we're talking about the people, the electeds, choosing their voters, But if we're honest, the voters still aren't really choosing their folks. Because in Seattle, they're celebrating the fact that, you know, if the voter turnout could get up to thirty thirty three percent in Detroit, they're talking about seventeen percent.
So it's like people are still not really choosing their candidates. It is a select few. It is a talented tenth, that is a talented seventeenth choosing who will represent the best interests of these voters. I don't know what we get what we do to get people to lean in in a process that, especially when we're watching it, like freaking implode this whole thing about like I voted, I picked my person, and then you redraw the goddamn lines.
Yeah. Yeah, By the way, this is some of the kinds of tactics that add to people deciding not to participate in the process. Right, they make the choice to stay out. But this is what I pull out as a difference. The difference with voter turnout numbers and percentages are that steal. The voters are making a you know, they are getting to decide whether to participate or not.
We have otherwise, is a system deciding who gets to show up, who gets to win, and who you get to choose from by way of candidates because we have rigged the rules to dictate to dictate that to you.
But I think that's why they don't show up. So I don't see them as separate. I see them as inherently connected.
I see them, I see them connected, I see them as slightly different. Because I want to be able to make the choice around my representation. I don't want you telling me that that a black candidate is now off the table because I've totally read on these lines to make sure that they'll never ever to be able to compete and win. That's that's the thing, the difference.
I think we have to keep talking about this. You know, we will over time for a mini pod data shut in today, But it's so good because what I think we get to the heart of brother is, you know, democracy is not like this foregone conclusion. It's something that is being fought for minute by minute, second by second, and it requires oversight, not just by it.
It requires our participation. Yes, but we don't get to watch this thing and think that it's going to work out the way we want it.
And casting a ballot isn't sufficient, Like you literally have to oversee the people who you put in place to oversee what is happening, because they may be overseeing it in a way that is not represent your best Angela.
I've said this on the show before it I stand by it, and that is is that democracy is a contact sport and it is the reason why this is the least in the least popular form of government as we look around the world, it is not easy to maintain. It is much easier to maintain a single leader at the top telling everybody what they can do and what they cannot do, and people obliging themselves and obligating themselves under that leadership structure. We are in a difficult process.
Democracies are hard, They must be fought for. It is why the framer said, we hand you a republic if you can keep it. If you can keep it, part is where we come in. If we can keep it. So that's the question of the day, and we'll only be answered by how it is that we respond to the threat that Texas is putting up and the threat that all these other states are going to continue to put up in the face of Donald Trump's power hungry party.
Right now, I want to tell you this because we do really do have to go. But we normally don't have cost to action in the in the mini pods. But I just want to shout out our sister friend Balicia Butterfield, because in the face of all that's happening, because democracy is crumbling, because it's a contact sport, she stood up something where she's using the hashtag relief is resistance.
As you know, Andrew, more than three hundred and ninety thousand Black women are now unemployed because of what's happened with the federal government, because of what's happened with DEI. And that's just in the last three months. She stood up an emergency relief fund and asking black women to apply if they need support, and so far more than eighteen thousand Black women have applied for emergency relief. And I just want to encourage us to remember that the
power is still with the people. Even when our representatives cheat us out of real representation, we can be there to stand up for each other to provide real relief. We did that with Stay to the People. Balisha's doing this now Black Voters Matter is doing this work. We have to continue to lean in for each other where our elected officials are leaving gaps.
That's real. Thank you, Ellen, Welcome Home.
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