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Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Welcome home, y'all is Mini pod Day, and I'm thrilled because we have very special guests joining us Doctor Joy Hard and Bradford. She's a licensed psychologist, a speaker, and host of the wildly popular mental health podcast Therapy for Black Girls. I've been a guest on her show before and turned it into my own personal therapy session.
I got a free bee.
Out of her.
But we love doctor Joy. It's such a delight to have you on the show. I was so thrill and Angela said you would be our guest this week.
So welcome home, Welcome you, Thank you, touch and to join you all.
Even your voice is so soothing. I love hearing you.
Might put me out right exactly.
But there's a reason, Angela, you wanted to have doctor Joy on the show. I have my own personal therapy questions I'll be getting to later, But what was your reason.
Well, there's a clip that keeps circulating online. It's been viral a few times, and I just want to play that clip. The clip is of a mother who has clearly sounded like she's sobbing as she moves around a very destroyed house. They say that this was seventy thousand dollars in damage done to her home by her twelve year old son because she simply took his device away. We regularly talk about on this show how these devices are all consuming. We see children getting into them much younger.
I have a good friend of mine whose daughter. I was watching her daughter when she was two, and this was several years ago, and I had a book I was reading to her and the baby was swiping the page instead of turning the page. So you know, even even that, like, there are so many ways in which we begin to rely on these devices.
For parents.
Sometimes it's a necessary very mental health reprieve to give the child something to do. And then you also see kids whose minds are not developed enough to be able to hold devices, and when they're taken away, they flip out. I have never seen something online where a child flips out and causes this much damage. Or refrigerator was tipped over in here, every TV screen had a hole in
it or was broken in some way. Dresser's furniture completely destroyed. Again, they said it was seventy thousand dollars worth of damage. So before you answer, doctor Joy, I want to go to my co host one who muttered under his breath. I have three options that I would have provided this child, and I want to see if my three options are aligned with my co host Andrew as you shake your head in person, all, oh.
I'm not because I'm embarrassed with the doc here to say my reaction, I.
Think you should say your reaction.
Well, i'd said, you know, was the video was taking it in, I'd kick his ass, But I do not physically, of course, uh harm my children. Of course we have a stern talking to and I don't believe that would be in their their set of options to do when their devices are taken at all.
Yeah, Tiff, how did you feel watching that with you? If this was your child, or a niece or nephew, a child's friend, what do you feel like your response would be to something like that?
Well, you know, I I have an issue with kids on phones like that, and when I was watching it, I'm like, this is an addiction, clear and simple, and I think, you know, I don't want to blame parents,
but I do. I look at that and think the parent has some responsibility because so often parents will make these devices the babysitter and put you know, the iPad down or give a phone down, and not only is that detrimental to their mental development and their health, but a study came out, I think last year or from jama that looked at data more than four thousand kids and linked addiction to social media, mobile phones, and video
games the higher risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior. So when I see something like that, I think there is no more clear example that this is a real problem. That kid has some serious challenges that derived from the phone, but also perhaps not the most attentive home life and not getting enough mental stimulation elsewhere.
Yeah, I definitely agree with both of y'all. I'm gonna say my first thing was like, oh, somebody getting an ass beat. And I don't even believe in whipping kids, but it's like, at this point, you chose violence.
I'm choosing violence.
I don't know whose child you are, but you going to whoever child you are because you're not my child doing those stuff like this like this is beyond. And the other thing that I thought about my mom used to cheat tease me when we were little. There was like some you know, Chitlin circuit play that came through Seattle, and the lady got on there and she would say I will kill you and tell God you died to
her child. And my mom used to say that to me all the time, and that's the first thing I thought of here.
I was like, Oh, my God, you're going to meet your maker. So God, did Joy, please tell us why we're wrong?
And if this is ever listen to this show what you would advise her to do with this child that clearly has an addiction and some clear detrimental, destructive anger management issues.
Yeah.
So you know, when I watched, I had not seen this video before before you all shared it, and I was also struck by like the level of destruction in the home. And my first thought was, this is not just about the phone, right, Like I think the phones and devices feel like very easy places for us to blame, like what's happening. But my guess is that stuff has been building up long before the phone was taking it away.
And I think it's also interesting I saw a lot of people in the comments talking about, you know, similar reactions like oh he needs to be beat, or people talked about like getting police involved in all of these things, all of which I do not think would be helpful. You know, so much of parenting is really about regulating ourselves so that we can then also help our children to regulate. And what I am seeing is just a
complete lack of regulation. It feels like and maybe even more right, like there may be some addiction things related to the device, but also maybe some distress tolerance, some impulse control. Like it feels like there are a host of things that may be going on that were happening even before the phone was taken away.
Doctor Joy, Can I ask.
You know because you made me think that's that's you're right about?
Right.
I wanted to ask you because I don't think this is a problem specific to children. I sit at tables sometimes with people and they're looking down. I'm just out of respect for myself and my words and what I have to offer. When I'm not being listened to, I don't speak, I won't contribute to the conversation. If you're
on your phone, then that has your attention. I'm not going to weigh in, but I notice when I'm at brunch and I'm looking at people and you have a table full of people and they're all looking down like this. And it's not that it just I think people don't have social grace anymore, like they have no idea. We talk on this show a lot about speaker phone. It drives me crazy.
On the train.
I take the train a lot between DC and New York, and people will just be there watching shows on speaker and I am the annoying person. It's like, excuse me, you need headphones on the train. Like I say it to everybody all the time in my workspace, I'm like, please, you can't be on speaker. But it just feels like we're so disconnected from each other, and these phones feel detrimental to our social health, our mental development as grown men and women. People don't know how to engage anymore.
It's frustrating for me. I leave my phone downstairs. I'm intentional about not being on my phone all the time.
What advice or.
What would you say to not just children but adults, Like, what are some practices we can employ to be more connected and get off these devices.
I mean, it's really ruining us. It annoys me, that's how much I think it's ruining us.
Yeah, but look at how all of the energy that you have related to this tiffany a lot, And I think that that just speaks but it speaks to the power that the devices often have over us. And so when you think about as adults, we often struggle with putting the phone down and being more attended and being more engaging, you can only imagine what the young people in our lives struggle with, right, Like, their brains aren't even fully developed, so of course they struggle with setting
limits around it. And so a lot of it is modeling for the young people in our lives. How do we take breaks from our devices? How do we actually engage with one another? I completely agree with you. I think that there is a lot of a lot of social graces that are just not being cultivated anymore. And I think we also have to think about the fact that many people also use their devices as a way
to manage anxiety. So if you are like waiting for a friend to show up and you're like not wanting to have small talk, what do you do when you're scrolling?
Maybe, right?
And so I think that that's something else that people aren't always tapped into, is that many of us are using devices as a way to kind of regulate ourselves and to manage any anxiety that we might be feeling. So in terms of some tips you've already shared, like having some distance between yourself and the device, so especially at nighttime, right, Like there's all this research that talks about the blue lights and like how our brains continue to be engaged even when we are thinking the phone
is down. So if you can sleep with it in a different room, that is incredibly helpful both to your mental health but also for your sleep. There are all these apps that you can also add to your devices that turn certain apps off, right, So if you don't want to be on the social media channels, or you only want to be able to check your email, like those kinds of things I think can also be really helpful.
But also making sure that you're getting enough physical activity, So are you doing enough other things in your life life to stimulate you so that there isn't necessarily the need for the phone. But I do think it's important to think about, Like the way that we're talking about this is in a lot of ways the same ways we talk about like managing addictions, right, Like all these things we have to add to our lives to be
able to put distance between ourselves and these devices. And it's meant to be that way, right, Like, there are tons of people who are hired by these companies who are their entire time is spant trying to figure out how to keep us on our devices. So I want people not to be ashamed by this, Like this is something that has kind of come into our lives and
taken off, I think, much quicker than anybody anticipated. And so it really is important for us to think about how do we stay connected to our humanity, both for ourselves and with one another.
It's perfect your piece around the addiction piece. I mean, I relate to that like strongly, just that people are spending their paid big dollars to keep us right with those devices. Now. Unlike Tiffany, I am not intentional about the distance from my devices. I'm just distant from my devices. I don't respond they yeah, they'd be another room sometimes in other states, uh, Tiffany h Sometimes in the car leave I left the last weekend, left it in the caught a whole weekend because I had to keep my
attention on some sleepover and my three children. But the of course, the problem he creates is that it creates the expectation for everyone else that when they send you a thing, that you're right there to get it in the moment and then respond. And I say to people, and anyone knows me already knows it, knows it. I
don't have to say it. If if I'm not physically holding that device when it comes in the message, I might not see that thing until I'm really trying to waste time, you know, standing in a line or something, and I may go back and revisit what that list is like. But our society has now created this unbearable expectation of instant everything, instant access, instant gratification, instant you know, da da, da, da da. And the Surgeon General last year issued a about these social media sites and sell
phones particular, and gave advice for parents. And I'm parents of now these kids who are about to be teenagers in two years middle school is nonetheless who all their friends have them, And I told them, you're not getting one. And if you have to get it, it's being recommended
that you're not by your children smartphones. That you get them phones for safety and access to you, by and large, but not to everything else in the world out there that they're literally being guinea pigs for being experimented on. As to what the effects are, we don't know the effects yet because there's not been a generation brought up
under this culture. So I just appreciate you there and want to echo again the regulation part of this, and that we as parents also are modeling, you know, to our children and those who are looking after us, what it's like to be responsible with the devices.
And I am joining you in that middle school struggle, Andrew. I also have an eleven year old and holding off on a phone for as long as we possibly can. But it is really hard, right like when all of the friends have and it's like, oh, this makes me feel disconnected, but you know, knowing what I know, I feel like I am trying to hold off as much as long as I can.
And friends, I want to ask for the parents who have children who are battling cell phone addictions and are afraid to take away devices because they're concerned. Maybe it wouldn't be at this level, but they're afraid of the type of destruction or the ways they engage, you know, their children around devices. They maybe even feel some guilt, Doctor Joy, like, how can I take away the thing that I gave.
To you that you're now relying upon.
What is some advice that you have for parents who are figuring out how to wean their kids off of a device where the reliance on it now may be a little too heavy.
Yeah, I think it is really important to get a professional involved, because as we are using this addiction language, you know, like we if we are not trained, we don't just stage interventions for people in our lives who are addicted to other things, right, And so we need to bring in trained professor about how do we talk with our young people about these devices and what are the steps to actually wean them, so to speak, from
these devices. I don't think for most people, cold turkey is like you don't do that with other substances, and so with a device you probably would not do that as well. But I also think it's important for us to be able to apologize and say like, hey, you know, I gave you this device and I thought that it was fine. But the more I learn and the more I'm reading and the more things I see, I think
that this may be an issue for us. And I want to backtrack, right, like it's okay to say oops, I messed up, and again that's great modeling for the young people in our lives that we can always go back on the decision and we learn more information, we can make a different decision. So I think getting a professional involved and also just acknowledging, like, hey, I know different things now and I want to make some different
decisions for our family. But I also think, you know, to our earlier conversation, we have to look at our own interactions with our devices, right, So we can't say we want the young people to be their devices and then every time they see us we have our head buried in our phone, Like it doesn't work that way.
Yeah, doctor Joy, I want to ask a personal therapy question. I'm trying to get into freebie, a freebie session. Yes, uh, you know what so much going on? Angela and I have certainly had some emotional episodes on this show where you know, things that we're going through personally, but also
things that we're going through in this country. And I know sometimes for me, like the sadness seems so overwhelming, you know, it's just compounding we are I'm writing about this now, about navigating our own internal trauma while experiencing external trauma. I'm just curious your thoughts. You know, when you wake up and you face the monstrosities of the day, you are greeted by images of starving, murdered or starving or murdered children in the Congo and Palestine. In Sudan.
You are greeted by images of children being ripped apart screaming for their parents right here in America because ice is you know, disappearing their parents. You're greeted with the images of animals being returned to overcrowded shelters because their humans got deported. And then there are the things in your own life. You know, maybe you had an ugly conversation with your mom, or maybe everybody in the family
asked you to brow two hundred dollars that day. Maybe your mother is in chemo, you know, like real seriously heavy things. I have been employing different practices on how to stay afloat, on how to keep putting one foot in front of the next. But for a lot of people out there, it's not that they feel you know, it's not as dire like they feel suicidal. They might not feel like they need to be committed, but they
just need help managing life. Right now, And I'm just curious any advice you can offer all of us who need help managing life right now.
Yeah, I think that as much as possible, you really have to try to disconnect from those images, Tiffany. And I know it's hard given what y'all do, right, And my heart often bleeds for you because I know this is your work, right, Like, this is kind of what you have been called to do, and it often feels difficult to like, how do I not bear witness to
all of these awful things that are happening. But when you think about like just human psychology, our brains cannot often detect whether something is an image like a storybook or a movie or a news clip versus you being there in real life. And so what that means is that you are often experiencing what we call vicarious trauma, which is as if you were in the middle of the war or on the scene of this awful thing happening.
And so you can start to experience things like PTSD symptoms, you know, difficulty sleeping, difficulty regulating your emotions, and so I think it is really important, even though there are so many awful things happening, even if you read about things that is a little less activating for us than watching images, because the images really do stay with us.
And so I think as much as possible, really disconnecting from images, not watching triggering videos again, making sure that you're paying attention to your sleep, and also, you know, infusing your life with other things that you are grateful for, right so, you know, maybe spending time with your animals or with family members you love, or taking girls trips or you know, what kinds of things can you add as a buffer, because your life can't be all this,
right Like, even though it is incredibly important and your work is so important, it can't be everything. You also have to build a life around those things as well.
Yeah, free Well, speaking of trauma, Angela.
So on this doctor Joy, you mentioned it when you talked about kind of the articles are reading and vicarious trauma. There's also some epide genetic trauma that we have, the things that we carry in our physical bodies ancestrally.
That sometimes it just feels like white folks don't understand.
So on that there is a moment that Serena Williams had recently in her on her hotel, and she brought us into that if we can roll that clip, all right.
Everyone, how do we feel about cotton as decoration? Personally?
For me, it doesn't feel great.
So actually it feels like no polish.
Means for cotton natural.
So before you get to this, I want to play a clip from Megan Kelly where she responded very cluelessly to what it means to have ancestral trauma.
Serena Williams is in the news. Why because she was in New York to support her friend Kim Kardashian with some things she's doing with Nike, and Serena will Siams was in town to attend to it. And she's in some hotel. We do not know which hotel she was staying, and she did not publicize that. But Serena Williams, who is one of the richest Americans alive, was triggered.
By something Maureen.
And so at the end of that video, she's plucked one of the cotton balls off of the plant and she's using it to buff her nails, and then she she does the hand gesture of like ew, like where you shake your hands like eh, gross, and she drops it. Now, Serena Williams is triggered by cotton.
I guess because.
It used to be picked by slaves, and she's a black American.
It's twenty twenty five.
Serena Williams is estimated by Forbes to be worth three hundred and fifty million dollars. She's married to a very, very rich man too. She hung up her racket in twenty twenty two, ending a career in which she earned ninety five million in prize money, more prize money than any female athlete in history. She has endorsement deals to this day with more than a dozen brands. She's active as an investor in her own venture capital firm. She's got a licensing deal with a beauty line. She's launched
a multimedia company. She owns part of the Miami Dolphins. But she is an oppressed direct descendant of slaves. I guess, And that's how she sees herself to this day, because I guess. Generational trauma.
Okay, so I want to play that for a couple reasons. Let me just tell you two points that triggered me. She said she was with her friend Kim Kardashian to attend to it, not to attend the event, to attend to it, which also I don't even know if Megan understands that she is leaning into where her.
Ancestors probably were to attend to it.
And then she said that Serena Williams one of the most accomplished athletes of our time, not black women athletes, not black athletes, one of the most accomplished athletes of our time. One prize money. When else did we hear prize money, y'all? When they had the Battle Royals and they made enslave people fight. So she's leaning into some of her own ancestral nonsense.
So yes, I'm triggered.
I actually I want to I want to tell you guys this really quick, and then I am gonna yo, doctor Joy. When I see cotton fields, I get nauseous. I get nauseous. Every time I called my mom and I was like, Mommy, what happens to you when you see cotton fields? And she said it makes me sick. There was an ancestor that we have, they said, was allergic to cotton.
These are not things that you make up.
This is there is something called epigenetics that Megan should google. These are things that we actually carry in our bloodline. So imagine if you are a descendant of an enslaved person, You actually.
Do carry some of that trauma.
We also carry the you know, the victory, the resilience, but we do carry that trauma anyway.
I just wanted to point that out. The cotton one particularly pricked me because I know my experience with cotton.
Yeah, I was really struck by how like trite she was, as if like, this couldn't possibly be an issue for Serena because money and wealth does not act as a buffer against racism and oppression, especially for somebody like Serena who has been so forthcoming about almost dying in the hospital because of medical discrimination, right, and so you know, that doesn't buffer her from experiences related to the things that her ancestors that have experienced the things she's likely
learned and read about and maybe had family talk with her about, you know. So I think it's a very natural response, Like and I thought that, like the designer world had kind of come further along than to decorate
with complaints anymore. Like it feels a bit outdated anyway, But of course I think a lot of us react to that because it's just so jarring, right, and it instantly puts us in the minds of what our ancestors had to do to survive, and so I was really strugg though not because this is kind of who Megan Kelly is and how she shows up right, but really struck by the way she kind of, you know, brushed it off, as if this reaction was being dramatic, and
because Serena is wealthy, she should not react this way.
I wish I was less connected to these, but I see them. You know, I'm in Florida. I'm in North Florida. My house is thirty minutes from South Georgia over the state line. In fact, one of the most regrettable things that my mom, who listens faithfully, is we'll probably hear this for the first time. But one of the reasons I have a hard time driving to her house and always want her to come to mind is because you spend a significant amount of the drive passing by these
cotton fields that are still bloom right. I mean, you go in the right season, it's just a sea of white, and it bothers me so badly, means to my space. I mean, my kids have caught me crying, you know, sometimes when they're in the backseat and we're driving through this, and I'm thinking about my grandparents, and you know, my mom's parents who were actually born en slay into slavery.
And you wouldn't think that given our ages, but my grandpa, my mom's parents were much older than my father's parents. My mom's the the the what seventeenth child of her parents, so her mother was laid into early fifty fifty one. I think it was when my mother came. So it was, it was, it is. It's everywhere you go to a gala, you go to a wedding, you go into a hotel.
This is the decoration of choice. It hasn't always been this way, but it's like it's made it as a revival, and you know, a lot of it for us, I think a lot of black folks in the South is we have to steal ourselves nearly every day. And it's probably true for black people everywhere, but I know, particularly here, you literally are sitting desk to desk with someone who you've read their Facebook posts and you know they don't like you, not you the person, but your people who
you are. They resent you in every way, shape or form. But yet you generate these niceties, these exchanges that you have to have compulsory almost you know, every single day. So this trauma piece is really what Megan's simple minded. I don't expect her to understand anything as complex as generational trauma. In fact, where she comes from is probably the belief that money solves all problems. And that ought to tell you enough about the type of type of
stock that she comes from. But for the rest of us, we can be as wealthy, as situated, as positioned as anything and still be visited. And the truth of it is is they know what they are visiting upon us. They know when they put that Confederate flag up in the back of the truck driving and all through the city, they know what they're symbolizing to us. So the feigning of ignorance is also extremely offensive because they act like they don't know with the message that they're sending you.
And so I appreciated your feedback on that. And if there are others for those of us who live this thing every day, where this is decoration common place, like the navigating of that without losing your damn mind.
Doctor Joey, I wanted to because Angela and I were having this discussion. So first off, the idea of intergenerational trauma. It's actually, as I'm sure you know, being in this your profession, a newly explored study, we're only five to
six generations from the horrors of enslavement. However, the psychological and emotional injuries we inherited, as Angela just talked about, as Andrew just spoke about, past two generations, and the impact it can have on us is even on a molecular level, waiting our biology and influencing our loarnged behaviors. Research from the NIH, the National Institute of Health, suggests that trauma can affect a person's DNA and potentially leave an imprint on the health of future generations far removed
from the traumatic event itself. So trauma around this in some way is in our genetic code. But where Angela and I differed is we discussed like should we play the Megan Kelly portion of this? And so Angela the point was, I think people want to know, like what do you say when someone says this kind of ridiculous and ignorance, Like how do you respond? And my thought is even to see her face and to hear her
voice is triggering. You know, I'm more of the mind of you know, I don't want to promote her podcast or what she has to say, and I don't want to give her that attention. I think this is an interesting question for you because as black people, we are so often put in that position where we got point two seconds to decide. So I know, and I know Angela has been where you're in a space where somebody has said something to you and you have to decide.
Am I going to just elevate past this and ignore you? Or am I about to go spider monkey on your ass and give you the righteous tongue lashing that you deserve. Sometimes I don't make the right choice. Sometimes I you know, I'm gonna go for I got time today. Other Times I try to elevate above it. So I told angel I'm like, let's play it so then we can at least have a discussion about, like should we what kind of attention we should give these things for the people navigating those decisions.
I'm curious what doctor Joy.
Was saying to do if it maybe that was in your face saying that, like how do you respond?
Now?
This is Tip's second free point of advice, But doctor Jordan, we would love.
To hear it.
That's a hard one because I feel like you tiff, like it could go either way, right, depending on the kind of day you're having. And I think that that's the point that there are always so many things that we are trying to calculate, right like who else is here? Why am I in this experience? Who else is gonna be seeing? This is somebody filming? Right Like, they're all these decisions we're trying to calculate within two seconds, like you mentioned. And so I don't know that there is
necessarily a right way. It is just what you choose at the moment. Right, So if you feel like, you know what, I don't even have time for this today. I don't think it's wrong to just say, Okay, this is ignorant, I'm not even going to give this any attention.
But I also think that it is okay to put people in their place sometimes if you feel like that is something that you want to do now and to think about like the consequences, right, Like, well, the consequences be more detrimental than you just moving on, But sometimes you just got to let folks know. And so I don't think that it is a wrong way to do anything. I think it really is about what do you have
the bandwidth for that day? And thinking about okay, what could be the potential consequences of this?
Yeah?
Yeah, I think our audience when we play these things, I think our audience actually likes it.
I think our audience likes to.
Hear, you know, Angelo's response to some of these people, because I think there are probably people all across the country who are like, I'm going to respond like that, so you know, I.
Think people Yeah, sorry, Jeff, go ahead.
No, I didn't mean to do that, because we heard about that on a survey too. I just it just sparked something in me, just to say people have to deal with these micro and macro aggressions every single day and are just like, I want the tools.
What do I say?
And I think in this moment, all we can hope for is that at some point people will find their compassion for humanity. And so if they have been so closed minded, so closed off, so restricted by who, by the company they keep, by the books they read, by the shows they listen to, by the people they entertain, that allow us to bring you into our experience.
I got an issue with cotton.
So does Andrew right, Like that's not happenstand, we don't know, Serena, you know, like that's not happenstance.
I don't know.
Tip.
You didn't say if you have one or not. Doctor Joy, I don't know if you have one or not.
But there are some folks that have visceral reactions to seeing certain types of crops being in certain parts of the country, you know, talking to a person with a certain type of accent. It just just can cause different issues. And so I see it as a teachable moment, even when it is ignorant. I would love to wipe the smug look off a face. But if I can do that with facts and not hands, I would take that any day.
Yeah, I mean I do. I do have.
I carry generational trauma in different ways.
I think we all do.
I think.
Even who we are in life is so often.
I interviewed this woman this week from my book, and she talks about she was eight years old and saw a woman, a black woman in the black section of the hospital die, an elderly woman who's gasping for air, and none of the doctors would treat her because they had to see the white patients first. And she decided, at eight years old she was going to become a doctor, and it made me. I'm writing about probing ourselves and
even our aspirations in life. Even who we become is in response to, or determined by some level of white supremacy in this life. I write about this Andrew on the heels of writing about our conversation we had about imagination, and so yes, I think we are all impacted by it, and it can weigh weigh me down. And so I dare to imagine who am I and what does my life look like? We're white people not at the center.
Even when I did my show on MSNBC. You know, black older black folks always pull me aside, like babe, we worried about you, like be careful. But I dare to imagine what would this show be if I got to be free, if I got to speak freely, if I got to make cultural references the same way to white folks get to make cultural references. Maybe I don't get theirs, they don't get mine. If you ain't get it, it wasn't for you to get you know, who would we be if we got to talk in our own vernacular?
It didn't have the code switch for their comfort. So and I think that's kind of the point for this conversation I'll tell you about later, doctor Joy that Andrew was making at one point saying that in some ways white folks have taken our imagination and I'm daring to reclaim that at least.
And parts because of the way we have to calculate our movements. I mean, you you mentioned this in part doc and your response just who's who's watching? What calculus must you include around consequence for you doing that thing? And I talk about it a lot in the in the form of voting. How you know, Obama didn't become a thing until a lot of us in this South saw that white people were willing to get behind him
and and huge fashion, and it changed the math. It's not because we didn't like him and didn't want to support him, but we're also we also calculate, and we don't want to throw votes away because we know how hard thought they are, and and and we have to negotiate our power from from from moment to moment, election
to election. But I my agitation a lot of times, certainly here in the South, is that mostly and I find this a lot with conversations with white men, is They use a lot of these painful instances in some of these sort of gas lit yuh experiences they want to call up, like black on black crime and why isn't that there aren't marches when when a black You know, these sort of things that I find to be really intended to be provocative to sort of get their opinion
out there under the guise of curiosity. And it ain't curious. It's largely judgmental. It's mostly meant to poke and mostly meant to try to serve as it an opportunity for them to indoctrina you and to believe in a subscribing to what it is that that that they believe in, not really hearing the fact that I don't say, why don't white crime even though that's the majority of crimes that take place in this country. No one says why don't white crime? Not news, not people, So why don't we say that?
Right?
I could return that, but I always find I often find that it's meant to poke, to pride, to provoke, And so if I if I deny you a response, it's because I'm not going to entertain you. My choice is not to entertain you.
That's it. You have time about that?
Why, like, listen, if you want to book a session with me, the book a session with me?
But I'm not hearing any question. Wait and she like, am my roster fold? So y'all go way on the wait list. I love it, she said, She said, do you have any thoughts about this?
I dress said about.
I did, but I did want to go back to your your comment Tiffany around like how imagination gets stolen? And I think about this a lot as a parent, right, like how do I create a world from my kids where they can just be who they are? But the truth is that they're black boys, and so there is some reality that I have to infuse and it does often make me feel bad in some ways that I
am like stripping this imagination from them. But I also, like I said, I think that's why spaces like this are important, right, that you don't have to do the code switching in their cultural references, that you can make that are ore and that we get it right because it is a spaceman for us, you know. So I think that that is something really important to highlight, that we can also create our own spaces where there is maybe more an ability to play with our imagination.
Yeah, I love that.
We had an interesting conversation as well. We were broadcasting live from the Congressional Black Cocus Foundation's Annual Legislative Conference and Roland Martin, our brother Rowe uncle Roe joined us and he had some admonishing words about gen X.
So you can take a listen to that.
There were a group of people.
They were the ones who sustained us from King's assassination to present day. They were the ones who knew who didn't vote. They did precinct walks, They showed up at city council, county govern meant state government. I guess my parents seventy eight, just like Eddie Rai, and we guess what those people are retiring or in some many cases they passed away. So there's a generation that did not replace those people.
Yea.
So what we've done is we've become so technical where we think that social media, text messchien, phone calls replaces that on the ground infrastructure. And that's what's missing if you go to place all around the country. That group, dudey gen X did not step up.
So one of our viewers actually weighed in with their thoughts, and I think, you know, Roe's pointing around gen X, you know, not meeting the moment and maybe failing resonated with some people. One of our viewers took great offense to it, so he sent in a comment, I want you to take a listen. And on the other side, of course, Roe had time, and so Roe responded to the viewers, Well, let's first hear from the viewer.
Greeting's native lampard.
Hi, this is Keith from DC.
What's going on?
Andrew, Angela and Tiffany. This is a private message for you guys.
I checked out your town hall the other day that you had with Roland Martin, and it was a statement that he made that really inflated me or inflamed them. Say it was a statement that he made that gen X failed us. Well, I have a problem with that because I'm a gen xer. You are gen xers. Roland himself is a gen xer. Wes Moore, the person you had on your town hall is a gener xer. Corey Booker who made that longest speech and whatever, is a gen xer.
I participated in the two thousand and eight and twenty twelve bought.
President Obama and Biden election.
I particiate in every election thereof.
I have camp famous, I have done the phone banks, I have replaced and removed signs.
I've done don dore have participants participant in the elections from whenever I was able to do set up. I'm a gen xer and the fact that he said the gen X has failed us is an insult to me. And if Martin needs to reach out to me, y'all have my information again, this is Keith. I'm a gen xer. Put some respect on that name. Gen X fore a baby.
If this is private by the time our audiences, we will blur his face.
He put on a video, but we'll get clarity from him. So if you're.
Watching videos all the time, but.
He may not want that.
So if you see his face clearly, then we reached out to him and got clarity. If we are blurring his face, we will cut out his name so people don't know, so that will explain whatever we'll we'll cut out all audio that references him. However, I did send this to Roland uh and Roro had time to respond.
So let's take a listen to that, right, ro.
Okay, listen up. I'm gonna need all your people who are caught up in your feelings about my comments regarding gen X to pay attention. I know that there are gen X people who have run for office, but I was very specific in my criticism. I was talking about the infrastructure that exist in order for us to turn
out the vote. I'm talking about the people who were pre seen captains, who were block captains, the people who have been involved on the ground, the people who run NAACP chapters, the people who are running community organizations who are on the ground. Yes there are grassroots organizations. I'm talking about the people who work elections, who are poll workers. I'm saying that was this massive infrastructure, that it's not being replaced. It's a fact. Okay, So you planning, what
you should be asking is where's the infrastructure. Not the running for office, but the regular ordinary people who do the work to drive our community engagement every single day. And I'm telling you all across black communities across the country, we're losing that because they are retiring or becoming ancestors. So don't get in your feelings, focus and fix the issue because that's our problem.
Yo.
Wait a minute, the fact that Roland got up in the morning and recorded this, that you could tell Roland just woke up. Then Okay, Tiffany was the provocatory.
And whyonding?
So Doc, who won? Who won the bat?
Oh?
Why have I get in? And how did I get it? Exactly?
Well?
There is a question though, of generations and how generations have changed, even us, you know, talking about kids on their phones and Andrew talking about his kids because you know, we don't really know the impact because they haven't come of age yet.
Uh.
And I find myself slowly morphing into that get off my lawn, oh theer person, like you kids, put down your phones and pick up your pants and get into something. And I feel like maybe we do. I feel like maybe we do.
Sound like that.
And so as the generations come of age, and I think he made a legitimate point about the infrastructure that we built as black people. Are we a little bit disaggregated these days? Even this idea when we were saying, you know, I'd beat that kid's ass or whatever, A lot of that is narrative, Like there really isn't any evidence that this. You know, people would tell me on growing up, like if I did something wrong.
Then the neighbor would beat me.
And then when I got home, my mom would beat me too, Like there's no evidence this like collective neighborhood beating who like form kids into perfect human beings who never misbehaved anymore. So I do here when I hear the generations like we knew how to do it and you guys didn't, I am a little bit struck about what that means for us, specifically as a black community, because our community is the very thing that made us
survive this four hundred year nightmare. So I do wonder what your thoughts are as you know, you're raising a new generation of black boys, you're from a different generation.
Just curries your thoughts, mm hmm.
Yeah.
So what I think I was most struck by in that exchange is that it felt like there wasn't a place for feelings, which of course is my thing as a psychologist, right, And I think that that is what we're often missing, is that we are kind of talking at and past one another, as opposed to let me actually sit with what you're feeling and what you're telling me, right.
And so in the listener's response, he's saying, like, what I picked up is that he was offended and maybe hurt that it felt like he was being blamed for this thing, and blame and shame is never going to
be an effective motivator. And so I think when we are talking to young people, we are often trying to use some of these shaming tactics and then wondering why they are not effective, because shame is not effective, right, And so I think, if we can actually come to the table and then let me actually hear what you're saying, and I apologize if I said something that offended you, that wasn't my intent, but maybe that's how it happened, right,
And so can we actually get on a feeling level, right, Like, maybe that's what we're missing, is that we're trying to brushpast feelings moving to action when we really have to deal with the feelings first.
Okay, good episode should could be called do you know what people say?
Get out your feelings? Put in parentheses in get feelings. I like it. I like it.
I stay there, and I know why your roster's full. I know why you're roster's full. Honestly, you're this is really this is not just limited to like this exchange. This is in life period. So often we find ourselves trying to win our point and we don't hear that. The person's like not really debating the marriage of that argument. They're like, this is how I felt about what you did.
But I also find myself in the blame and shame category, like I do in my mind. I find it the way I speak. Sometimes I find it when I see people, you know, I feel it. I filter my thoughts sometimes and sometimes I don't. And when I see people, you know, disconnected from community or just being disrespectful or like I don't care about none of this what's happening, Like I do find.
Myself not necessarily.
Somebody who does a great job at reaching people without any blame or shame is Latasha Brown. Like she voting rights activists who runs Black Voters Matter, and she just has a way of speaking to people and pulling them in. She is an evangelist who can make you a believer in whatever she's preaching because she leads with love. And
so I've tried to learn how to do that. But even with talking with my family, sometimes I do find myself judging, you know, or when they say something, I'm like, what, like, what does that even mean? So that's really good advice for me and how I present and speak for sure, I'll try to practice it at this big old gen x age because I think you went over more people with honey and not that you're not.
About to give you another session. I know, I'm just thinking I had.
A question, but I stopped myself. I'm like, I'm not asking a question.
Judgment. You know you sent and you know.
In therapy like it don't matter what you say. If once that forty five fifty minute come up, you could be like, you have docs.
I just had an abortion yesterday and they're like, okay, do that up next week.
I literally said, and on that note, on that note.
Welcome you got to come back.
Though, there are so many people our listeners who come up to us and say they just relate to wrestling with not knowing what to do in this moment, balancing micro trauma with macro, you know, from the government to what's happening all over the world, you know, really wanting a safe place to land. And while we convent with them and we can give them calls to action, we can't give them the psychological tools to combat the warfare
they're experiencing on every side. So you know, you're always welcome back home, not just to counsel us, but to also counsel our audience.
So we thank God for you and really appreciate you joining us today.
You're here. You Welcome home.
Welcome Home.
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