Murder and Mystery ft. Morbid Podcast!

Hello everybody. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We have a very, very exciting episode today. I tried my very best not to fangirl. You did great. Thank you. I really tried. So we are really excited because today's a little bit of a unique episode. We...

have a collaboration with one of our favorite podcasts ever, and that is Morbid. I don't think they need much of an introduction since they are really well known in the true crime community. As far as podcasting, they've been doing this for many years. years and it was such a pleasure to speak with them and this podcast I when I was moving out west I was listening to them like on my road trip so to see even in our email like looking forward to our chat I'm like You're going to talk to me? Why?

it's just it's so exciting because obviously morbid is such a big podcast and they've been very very successful ash and elena have and um to see how far our podcast has grown and that we're getting the opportunity to talk with them and to hang out and do some fun stories. Or I say fun, I should say some morbid stories. But we're even going to go to some national parks, a national park.

run areas today so it's super exciting and we're we're just so stoked for this this is such a fun point in our show and how far we've grown and now we get to hang out and talk to The girls from Morbid who we've just been listening to for years. Yeah. And we did do, this is probably now a couple weeks.

This is a couple weeks ago. We did an episode on their show. We covered a couple of spooky lighthouses. So if you're interested in that, you should go check that out. And it was released on August 24th on their feed. But today we have them on our show and we're kind of bringing them out of their comfort zone a little bit. So we agreed on having them do. We said you can pick whatever stories you would like to do. We don't want to hear what they are as long as they're.

in an area that is either a national park or run by the National Park Service, let us know the place.

And we will do some background research on the location. And then you can tell us a story. So that's what we did. That's how the format of today is going to go. Cassie and I are going to introduce the locations. And then Ash and Elena will be telling us a story. Yeah. So we're so, so excited. Let's all welcome to the show Ash and Elena. Hello.

Well, thank you so much, Ash and Elena, for joining us. We're so excited to have you here. We're big fans of your podcast, Morbid. Thank you so much. We're excited to have you here. need no introduction we had so much we had so much fun on your show a couple weeks ago now and everyone when we posted it our like audience was going nuts when we said that we were

That you guys were on, everyone went nuts. Everyone was like, this is a great collaboration. And it was so much fun. We had a great time and terrible Tilly. People are like, I've had so many people from who like live around in the Pacific Northwest. They're like.

I have to go now. Oh, yeah. Because it's so close. You have to. I want to go and it's not even close to me. I'm like, let's go. It's the farthest and I still want to go. It is. It's literally the farthest. But I want to go. Yeah. Well, today we're bringing... We're bringing you to the dark side and we're bringing you outdoors. I know it's a little out of your comfort zone. Completely out of our comfort zone. Well, I know you guys have. two stories today. And Cassie and I...

Just know the location, but we don't know the actual stories. So we're going to do a little intro to the story or the location itself, and then you take it away. Perfect. Sounds good. Scare the pants off. Yeah. Okay. Can't wait. Can't wait. So we're going to first go to the Appalachian Trail, right? Yes. Perfect. And Cassie, you haven't done the AT, but... Your friend has, right? Erin. Yeah, my friend Erin, she did the AT last year and it seems...

Pretty fun and also just a lot. I mean, walking thousands of miles. It's the most. I joined her on a portion of it. Oh, did you really? I joined her. I say I joined her, but it was in Vermont. And I was there for like six miles. And then I went home and slept in my bed. Six more than I would have done. So go off, girl. I was just going to say six more than I've done. Six more than I'll probably ever do.

It's close by if you guys ever want to hop on it just for a minute. Just be like, oh, we stepped on it. I'm pretty sure I've stepped on it at one point, but I did not hike. I probably haven't. Yeah, I've seen it. I've heard of it. I've seen a part of it. I'm sure I've seen a tree on it or something. There you go. Yeah, you've seen like the little white marker for it. Yeah, exactly. There it is. There it is. And it's a beautiful trail. I mean, it goes.

Like Cassie said, thousands of miles. So I'll do a brief intro on it for anyone who is not familiar with the AT. Because like we said, when we were on your show, we kind of talked about how national parks are way more than just like the big units like Yellowstone. and Yosemite. So the AT is managed by the National Park Service and it spans 15 states. It comes in at roughly 2,193 miles and is the longest hiking only trail in all of the U.S.

The trail passes through eight different national forests and six different national parks and is known for its spectacular view of the Appalachian Mountains, which is what it's named after. And because the trail is so long and travels through so many various... landscapes and different climates. There's a diverse amount of plant and animal life here, depending where you are on the trail, of course. So if you're there, you can run into black bears, coyotes, porcupine.

moose deer there's herons and woodpeckers rattlesnakes and black widows and then like chipmunks and turtles and nicer things the black widows and then there's chipmunks there too yeah so don't and squirrels yeah can't forget them So there's a lot of North America's iconic wildlife here throughout the trail.

And even though there's a lot of cool wildlife, the trail's known to be particularly challenging because there's an estimated 450,000 feet worth of elevation changes throughout the trail and some peaks reach overseas. 6,000 feet in elevation. Oh my god. So to say it's a little complex and quite strenuous would be a little bit of an understatement, which makes anyone who accomplishes this trail just like rock stars in our books. You need to hand out medals.

For real. This kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like a picture at the at the end is just like kind of like it's so just so gratifying. And then it's just like, OK, that's it, I guess. Exactly. I think they do do certificates and little pins that they send you if you like prove or document that you actually did it. So you do get something and you get like recognition into the Hall of Fame of. at hikers oh nice yeah yes i mean someone should

be responsible for handing that out because it is quite the accomplishment. And every single year, about 3 million people hike some portion of the AT. So that's a lot of people. But according to the Appalachian Trail Conservancy,

over 3,000 attempt to hike the entirety of the AT, the whole 2,000-ish miles. And one in four, roughly, will complete the whole thing from start to finish. Jeez. So Aaron is... a badass yeah for real breathing rarefied air over there she's gonna listen to this and she's gonna be like oh my god you are impressive didn't she do um this

I'm like totally putting a spotlight on her, but she's the only person I know that's done this. Wasn't there a portion where she like did it naked? Yeah, it's part of the... That makes her so much better. Somehow. I didn't think she could get better. It's part of like what you do on the trail. I guess you do like a day of hiking naked and she has a photo where she just has like a leaf in front of her. That's phenomenal.

That's awesome. That is magnificent. I love that it's like just for tradition. Yeah, that's great. It's like it's time. Just being one with nature. It's kind of tradition in Vermont because I have been out on the trail sometimes, not on the AT, just hiking. The other day I was out hiking and I walked by and there was just a naked guy walking down the trail. I'm like, wow. What's up?

just free he's very respectful though he like turned around and hit away from me and kind of shied away hit his business and then he's like hey have a nice hike and then he like waited for me to walk by and then he continued i was like oh that's really nice because i was by myself

I was very kind. I'm like, he's not being weird. The rules are so freeing. I would not know how to respond to that. Like, I just feel like, wow. You just feel like, hey, you too, man. Get it, dude. Sure. Nice breeze out here today. I hope you have sunscreen on.

dude because that happened um I think I've told you this Cassie like when I lived in colorado the first time i was going we were hiking up to like the this abandoned mine shaft to look at the uh free-tailed bats like migration and we get it's like sunset like we're getting up there we're like two miles in and all of a sudden there's like we encounter like three different naked like nudist people i had no idea this was like part of hiking neither did i

It's not common. It's not common. It's a subgenre. Everyone's naked in hoods. An obstacle that you will. come across well to be fair the biologist that was leading this particular like little trek he was like oh yeah sorry we hike through a nudist colony to get to our i'm like that makes sense i feel like all right

Would have been nice to just like as a heads up. So I wasn't rude. Just like, you know. We're infiltrating. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's like you feel kind of like you're the one out of place. Yeah. Do I have to take my clothes off? Yeah. You feel like you're like voyeuristically there. You're like, I swear I'm not. Everyone's like side-eyeing you. Like, who is this person with clothes on? I'm like, I'm so sorry. I can take my top off if you want. It makes you feel more comfortable.

But anyways, okay. So for those on the trail, on the AT. which is not going through a nudist colony that I'm aware of, there is an option to stay in one of the more than 250 backcountry shelters located throughout the trail. They average about eight miles apart, although there are some stretches. of the trail where there can be up to 30 miles of nothing in between locations. And one of those shelters is named the Wapiti Shelter.

meaning elk in both Cree and Shawnee. The mammal was once abundant in the Appalachians until around the 1860s when they were locally extirpated from the area through various hunting methods.

And this shelter is situated in Virginia along the trail, and it's northeast of the popular campground of Walnut Flats. And from what I hear, it's where Elena is taking us today for her story. It sure is. Woohoo. And Nat, thank you for that. I want to say it like Winnie.

Thank you for that marvelous introduction. Ooh, there you go. I love that. She brings the morbid quick. I was like, wait, where is this quote from? All right. So I'm going to be taking you guys back to 1981 and then pulling you forward to 2008. So there's two separate events here. Okay. Way back in May 1981, we're going to be following Laura Susan Susu Ramsey and her very good friend Robert Mountford Jr. They were both 27 years old at the time. They were working as social workers from Maine.

We're going to be hiking this trail together. I believe that Laura joined Robert halfway through. He was doing the entire trail. Gotcha. Now, I wasn't able to find a ton about Robert Mountford Jr., like his life or anything before this. But I did find I ended up stumbling upon a page that was talking about Laura. And it said that she was a musician, a singer, an actress. She was said to be. hilarious, super intelligent, like straight A student. She was very loving, just like...

An amazing person to be around. She was elected homecoming queen of her high school. And everything that I read was like, she wasn't that typical homecoming queen that was elected because she was like the popular girl. Like she was elected because everyone genuinely was like, she is a...

queen like she is just like she's just the best yeah like she just treats everyone amazingly everyone feels comfortable around her she was just like purely wonderful basically uh her epitaph actually states that she was a ray of sunshine and everyone says that is the perfect descriptor for her. Now they were actually hiking the Appalachian Trail together for a fundraiser.

They were raising money for a school for disabled children back in Maine, and this school was actually run by Robert's mother, which makes this whole thing even more tragic when we find out what happens. It also just shows how good of people they were. I mean, you just said she's a ray of sunshine and then they're out there for disabled children. I mean, that's amazing. Exactly. And that his mother runs this school. It's like clearly this is just like a whole gene pool of amazing.

people really so may 19th 1981 they ended up eating dinner together with a fellow hiker by the name of randall lee smith they had met him at one of the general stores along the way and he just kind of like hung out with them but they said everyone

saw him was like he was a little strange but they were really nice people and everyone says that you know along the appalachian trail you kind of help each other out you're nice to each other it's like this nice little community of people who just want to help each other out and just want to see each other get to where they want to go

You're all there for the same reason. You're all in the same situation. Yeah, like everybody, you know, this person can probably help you with this thing and you'll be able to help them with another thing. It's just like a nice little community there. One hand washes the other. Exactly. And they were on their way. at this time May 19th to the Waipiti shelter and they were going to be staying there for the night.

Now, talking about Randall Smith really quick, he was a troubled kid who came from a very strange home life with his mother, Loretta. There was a lot of weird things in his childhood. He was known as a loner in school. He was obsessed with taking... off on the Appalachian Trail. Especially on the weekends, he would just be gone. Like, just going off into the wilderness. It was usually probably to escape his very, like...

kind of sad life and also probably his own thoughts. People in his life described him as a habitual liar as he got older. He even had the nickname LR for Lion Randall. Lion Randall. Yeah. Oh, God. And apparently he didn't really care. about that like people would call him that and he was like yeah He was perfectly fine with being called that. He's proud of it. He's like, yeah, I am that. Yeah, he's like, you can't trust me, so leave me alone. He's bleak. He is bleak. Bleak Lion Randall.

Honestly, everything about Randall Smith, his entire life was bleak till the very end. Now, they all had a meal together at the Wapiti shelter. They had invited him to sit with them and eat like they were those kind of people. Had a nice meal. Everybody's chatting. After the meal was done, Smith suddenly stands up and just attacks Laura and Robert. Out of nowhere, unprovoked, just attacked them. He ended up shooting Mountford in the head with a .22 caliber pistol.

Just pulled out a pistol and shot him in the head. Then he ended up bludgeoning Laura with a piece of iron that he produced out of his pocket and stabbed her multiple times. He killed them both. He dragged the bodies away in their own sleeping bags and he buried them in shallow graves away from each other. And this was unprovoked. Nothing was stolen from them. They had just fed him. They had just fed him and treated him like a human being.

Like that's all they had done. So scary. Was just invited him to eat with them. Just a total random act of violence. Completely random. And what we find out too is there is no motive. Like this guy has no motive for what he does. He's just an evil guy. Like he really is. And they were reported missing really quickly because there was a fellow hiker that they had met on this trip because obviously they came along.

cross a lot of people and they were really cool people so they made a lot of friends and so this fellow hiker had made plans with them to meet in a place above parisburg but they didn't show up and when they didn't show up she couldn't get in touch with them so she contacted the police and were like i'm concerned

They wouldn't just blow me off like this. And they're really experienced. I don't think they got lost along the way. So their family members actually ended up driving out from Maine to come here and aid in the search. And all of them were super concerned. They were all... 100% sure the foul play had happened here, because especially Robert was such a skilled woodsman that they were like,

I don't see an accident happening. Like something bad happened here. And authorities asked people on the trail if they had seen the couple or heard from them because obviously they had made some friends. And a few of them mentioned that they had seen Robert and Laura with a quote, strange looking man.

And they said they saw them in various places on the trail with him, especially leading up to their disappearance. Most of them said they'd seen them all heading towards that Wapiti shelter area. Now, during this investigation and search, multiple people also said...

that someone they had known or come across who went by the name of Lion Randall was walking around telling people that he knew what happened to those missing hikers. So he was just bragging about it. Oh, God. So he's just telling people. And he's doing this on the trail, you said? Yeah, he's going on the trail. And obviously this was spreading through like...

the hiking community. So like everybody on the trail was like a little on edge being like, what happened to these people? Like we got to be careful. Yeah. Like everybody was taking safety precautions and he's walking around and people are talking about it. And when he.

hears people talking. I wonder where they are. I wonder what happened. He's like, I know what happened. And like, won't say what happened. He's just telling them that. Imagine being alone out there and someone says that to you and you're just like, I don't have service. I can't call 911 and I'm in the middle of the woods.

Yeah, and I'm stuck here. I can't just be like, okay, I'm done. I'm going to leave now. It's like, nope, now I have to hike all the way back out if I want to leave. It's like I'm 30 miles away from civilization right now. Yeah. What do you do there? It's so scary. And he was a scary...

guy like he was just he had a scary way about him he looked scary it was just these people were really good people for just like sitting with him and having dinner and not being like okay creep like please go away right i was gonna say it sounds like everyone else was like was scary and yeah it's okay and they were just like sure we'll feed you dinner like we'll just hang out with you because you seem like you're strange and a loner and we'll just kind of be nice extend some kindness yeah

Exactly. And as we'll see, he even recognizes that they were kind people because he actually they find a note later that he reveals like, wow, they were really nice to me. Wow. Yeah. So. He was just evil. Now, May 30th, 11 days after they went missing, the Wapiti shelter was finally searched. And investigators found...

A ton of blood between the floorboards. All of a sudden they, I think one of them was looking down and was like, I saw this weird dark stuff between the floorboards and I stuck a knife in there and kind of like skidded it across. And when I pulled it out, it was wet blood.

now the blood matched that of robert mountford and laura ramsey a search of the area revealed a barely covered in leaves gravesite about 30 yards away from the crime scene this is when they found laura ramsey in her sleeping bag the following day and they looked everywhere they didn't find they could not find robert the following day they brought in canines and the canines were

ones that led them to robert who was also found in his sleeping bag a few hundred yards away from the crime scene and again barely covered like shallow graves just leaves thrown on them like he didn't care if they were found or not Now, autopsies showed that Robert had been shot in the head and Laura had been, she had intensely fought back against her attacker. There was tons of defensive wounds. She had been hit very hard in the head with a piece of iron and he had used not only a knife.

to stab her, but a long nail was used to stab her over 13 times. A nail? Yeah, a long nail, which I'm like, what? And it just shows you that he, like, came prepared and ready to do this. Oh, yeah. Because why else would he have an iron pipe and a long nail? Like, he has several different weapons on him, and these aren't weapons, like, you don't need a big...

long nail to fight a bear off no yeah and for something with no motive it's so personal exactly and so vicious and like rage filled It's really scary to think that somebody that you spend the entire evening with and like the whole day with just snaps out of nowhere.

Just pulls out a gun and shoots you in the head. Like no argument, nothing. Yeah. And it's like, did he snap or was he planning on doing this to them all day? And it's like they were sitting with him all day and didn't even realize that this was going to happen. Probably. He probably had this in his head. And we're hiking. Yeah.

they're just hiking together have no idea wow and investigators also found around this crime scene a paperback book that laura had in her bag that she was reading along the trail and inside the book they found bloody fingerprints on the book And they were matched to Randall E. Smith. Wow. Who was already in the system because he had worked for some like shipyards and he had to have his fingerprints on file. So they were able to match it right away.

Now, they searched Smith's home and they found a blood-soaked pair of blue jean shorts that belonging to him in the blood was matching the victims. They found it in the basement of his home. They also found what was said to be... They wouldn't say exactly what was found, but they said other items belonging to the missing hikers down there. Now, interestingly, according to the Standard Times, and it was an article written by Will Haywood, they apparently also found medical instruments.

down there that he had fashioned into sex toys. Bye. Yeah. Thought that was interesting. No. Yeah. What kind of medical? Thank you. Because when I read that, I was like, I'm sorry. What? like what exactly what medical thing did you fashion into what yeah like i'm just like racking my brain of like

Trying to think. Every type of instrument. Everything is stainless steel and sharp. I'm actually shutting my brain down in order to not think about that. I was really trying to come up with what these could be, but I cannot.

fathom that's for the better that's for the better guys we don't need to know we weren't meant to just like yeah and did he work in the medical field how did he obtain medical instrument i mean it's not difficult but it's random but it's like where did that come from well his mother had worked in the laundry room of a hospital his entire life and they think that maybe he had stolen those items at some point during that time

Now, they also found a note in the ashtray of his truck. And this note was just a little scribbled note that he had written. And it said, quote, this boy and girl have been so nice to me. It's going to be a real shame when the time comes to get rid of them. Or like it doesn't have to come. Fully planning. What? Fully planning it. Fully planned ahead. It's like, oh, they're really nice, but it's going to happen. Yeah. And just recognizing like they've been really kind to me.

Now I have to do this. And it's like, you don't. And that there's no reason for it. None. Like just no motive given at all. And like you were saying, like people thought he was scary looking and like felt like off about him. I'm sure he ran into people that were not nice to him. And it's like. I mean, I'm happy he didn't pick other people, but you picked the two people that were the kindest? Yeah, that's the thing. I don't get it. It just makes you not want to be nice. Exactly.

And that's the thing. It's so true. I was driving home today, actually, and the long trail is in my town and goes through and there is this guy hitchhiking and. the i'm sure where he was going it's about like four miles north of my house and i'm like oh if i didn't think you were gonna murder me i would totally give you a red right If I didn't know you were going to murder me. Here we are. I'm terrified. I'm just going to go home. Yeah, absolutely not.

And you look at the 70s and hitchhiking and it's like, woof. Yeah. There's been so many cases that I'm like, ooh, glad I never did that and never picked anyone up. Yeah. it's not great well and it's so sad because so the hiking community as a whole kind of like you touched on especially on the at there is a community of you know like we want to help each other out and we're all here for the same reasons

out for each other you look out for each other and there's a lot of i mean not to call cassie out but cassie and her partner al like took in people from the trail with the laundry was it oh yeah some through hikers we met um out hiking and they were like oh we're staying in this town tonight

But there's no hotels or anything. And I was like, oh, I live in that town. Do you want to just, like, stay here? Oh, my God. It was kind of a mutual trust, though, you know? Like, they had to trust that we weren't bringing them into it or them. Yeah. It's true. And now we're all friends. I love that. Yeah. And it's like, that is kind of the understanding, like that mutual.

understanding that like you scratch my back i'll scratch yours we're all here for the same thing and then but there it's things like this that make you pause question that and pause and it's a shame because nine times out of ten it's like could be a beautiful like

friendship yeah or even just a cool couple hours with somebody like you might meet somebody that you never would have exactly yeah And that's in from what I've read, just to like point it out again, this trail is supposedly when it comes to like safety. It's a very safe trail. Like murders are not common. Rapes are not common. Assaults are not common on this trail. Like it is considering how.

huge it is like there would likely i think like proportionally it would be it probably should be a lot more considering what a terrible thing the human race is but there's it's a really safe place so this is a very strange thing to have

happen so like a hiker shouldn't be scared to like hike this trail that they're gonna be murdered because it's really not a common thing yeah but the at is actually full of really great people for the most part exactly and that's the thing and you should be able to trust

another it just sucks that we can't trust another human being just to be a kind person like that you have to second guess somebody being kind is like are you just being kind so you can murder me like you yeah right it sucks that we have to do that What's the caveat here? Yeah, right. Like, why are we the worst? Why are we the worst thing that happened to this planet? Why can't I just...

Give you a ride. Yeah. Or why can't I just eat dinner next to you? Because the world would be such a nice place if we all just like stop murdering each other, you know? It'd be great. I wish. It was that easy. We could just be like, hey, guys, let's all stop murdering each other. And I was like, yeah. And everyone was like, wow. Great idea. I never thought of that. That's a great idea.

Because, like, you taking in the hikers. Like, that's awesome. Yeah. That's so cool. And it's like. Yeah. But everybody's got to, like, second guess, like, is this person. I'm sure they were, like, walking in and they're like, all right, where are the exits? Exactly. Yeah.

But it really is like a rare thing. But after this whole thing, once they found the stuff, the really strange things in his basement, he had actually fled the state and was nowhere to be found. Yeah, he got out of there. So at this time, the man...

hunt is active for him they know this is the guy but it's kind of at a standstill at the same time because they don't know where he went and that's scary because they know he's an active hiker and like an outdoorsman so he could be lurking anywhere exactly he could exactly and he

He was an avid outdoorsman. He was going to be able to stay outside for a long time. They're just hitting walls at this point. So the investigator leading the case was Tom Lawson. And at this point, he said it was so overwhelming. And it was just like they were hitting walls. wall after wall. And he said he took his family, like his kids and his wife on just like a little getaway to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. He was like, we were literally going for a few days just to like.

clear my mind because I was so stressed about this case. And at this point, while they were there, he was called by the police station back home and told that police had arrested Randall Lee Smith. But they didn't arrest him back there. They arrested him in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. what i'm where he was yeah like what are the odds oh that's scary he's like why did i go on vacation in the place that he had run away to it's like i was trying to get away from this and i followed him here

It was wild. I was like, what are the odds? And Randall didn't know that he was there. No idea. Randall had just run. There before. That's crazy. He happened to go. So weird. Now, when they picked him up, he said that he had amnesia and he didn't even know his name.

He didn't know why he was in Myrtle Beach. Didn't know his name. Didn't know anything. If it doesn't work for the housewives, it's not going to work for you. You should have said it to him, you know. That's what I should have said. He should have called you down there and been like, this does not work for the housewives. I would have told him. So, you know. But.

they were like we know this is not amnesia we know that you know who you are but we got to figure out how to like trick you into admitting that you know who you are so Apparently he had like this guy, he had clearly been staying outside. He had been like on the run because he was covered in bug bites. Covered. And they said he had like scratched some of them raw. It was just like really bad. And he was clearly uncomfortable. like a mess the bugs knew they did and so the police were like hmm

okay, we can use this. So one of them was like, dude, like I like, you know, I know a doctor and I know that some of these are like really bad and need medical attention. Like right now, like they're going to get really bad. Like you could die from this. You should probably see a doctor.

and he was like oh shit okay and they were like okay cool those bug bites are fatal they were literally like these mosquito bites could kill you my dude and he was like i believe you right so he was like that sounds right yeah and he totally bought it that's all they did and they went here's a consent form, a medical consent form, and we'll get you a doctor in here. And he signed the paper, Randall Lee Smith. What a dingus. And they were like, come on. Like, really, dude?

I have amnesia, but I do know my signature and my name. Yep. And they were just like... Thank you, Randall. How's that amnesia doing? Crap. Feeling better, son? So that fell apart real quick for him. But they brought him back to, they extradited him back to Virginia.

Now, instead of saying I have amnesia and I don't remember anything, they were like, you need to tell us what happened. And he just said, no, I'm not telling you. And he just said, I'm not talking about it. So now they're like, you remember what happened? He's like, sure do.

Just not going to tell you. Wouldn't talk about it. What a dick. Yeah, refused to acknowledge them. Such a dick. And they did psychiatric testing on him because of the whole amnesia thing. They were like, let's clear that out and make sure. He was also kind of showing, he was kind of pretending.

to have like dissociative disorder traits like he was really trying to play on like i don't know what's going on i'm i'm not even here but they found out through testing that he was 100 faking all of it completely faking everything and what makes it so clear that he was very sane when he did this, was the complete premeditation.

Like he had written down a note saying it's going to be a shame. I have to get rid of them. And the completely diabolical way he tried to cover up the crime after he did it, he hid the bodies, which is a logical way of thinking for a killer who wants to get away with their crime.

And also, this shows that he's aware he did something wrong and would be arrested for it if it was caught. Like, that is a very clear line of thinking for a sane person. He also went back down the trail after he murdered them, and he removed Laura and Robert's...

names and information from any log books along the way at stops. Wow. To make sure people can follow their path. Like, that is... beyond so calculated he also ripped the film out of laura's camera and took it with him they never found it

Oh, that's sad, too, because, like, her family should have that. Which is chilling, too, because I'm like, did you take pictures? Like, what happened? Oh, yeah. Together or during or whatever. That's the thing. It's so chilling. Yeah, just removing any sort of... evidence of him being associated with them yeah other than word of mouth exactly which is what i think happened i'm sure they took pictures together and he thought about it was like i gotta take this away which is calculated so again

No motive found. He would not even try to spill a motive out. But they were trying to prove also that they believed that Laura, unfortunately, had been sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, because the deteriorations of her remains when they found her, they weren't able to...

able to physically prove it but they were trying to get him to admit it because they knew they could get him on that too and get a bigger sentence on top of everything but they weren't able to he would not speak they couldn't get any of it and everyone was everything was moving towards a trial

And then suddenly the night before, out of nowhere, he pleads guilty to two counts of second degree murder. Which I'm like, how second degree murder? Yeah, like you wrote down, it's a shame these people are going to have to die. Like the note, the removing the logbook stuff. though like that's all very there's premeditation and this cover-up involved all of it yeah this was clearly intentional it wasn't but i'm sure second degree murder carries way lighter sentence exactly

Yeah. And he took this random plea deal. And apparently the attorney felt the case wasn't as strong because they didn't have a motive. But the investigators disagreed completely. And they were like, no, we have tons of physical evidence. Yeah. His fingerprints are there.

i don't know what the attorney was thinking in blood literally in blood on her book was his fingerprints the note and then everything found in his house i'm like i think he was lying about amnesia too yeah and he ran it's like i wonder if they just didn't want to go through the trial yeah well i mean laura and robert's families agreed to it but they were not happy

about it at first, but they agreed. They were also, the victims' families were so respectful of each other during this process. Like, Robert's father, Robert Mountfridge Sr., said that they were only going to take that plea deal. They were only going to agree to allowing that.

to happen if the Ramseys were okay with it. So like the two of them were like, we have to agree 100%. Nobody, if one person in these two families doesn't want that plea deal and wants to have a trial go through, we all agree. That's awesome. Which is really cool.

Cool. Like that doesn't happen all the time. And he ended up being sentenced to 30 years in prison, which I don't think is enough. But that's just me. For murdering two people in cold blood, I wouldn't say so. Yeah. And it gets worse. So good. People were sure.

from this. There was like a lot of people questioning, like we were just talking about whether the trail was safe, freaking out about like, should I even go on the Appalachian Trail now? The crime got, the crime's got a ton of coverage. So of course, again.

It's very rare. Another one of these did not happen for a long time. It's a very rare thing. Now, he ended up being released from prison in 1996 after only 15 years. What? He got out on good behavior. Which is bullshit. Oh my god. I never get that because of course you're going to behave well if you think you're going to get let out of prison and you can do exactly what you did to land in prison in the first place. Exactly.

it makes me crazy it's like okay well he wasn't behaving good before right so why are we like extending the opportunity to someone who commits such a brutal vicious act yeah after serving even 50 like i understand that there is reform and people you know for sure we're not here to get into that no but but at the same time like it's

Just a huge, for lack of a better term, it's a slap in the face to the families and the victims and to just be like, yeah, well, he's he's being chill here. So yeah, like he listens to us in here. So I think it's fine. And it's like he listens to us with armed security. Exactly. Right. Exactly. He's locked behind bars and he's doing pretty good at it. And it's like, I don't what that's not the same as being allowed to wander one of the biggest trails in the country. Like that's a little.

different you can't hunt people in prison exactly and it's like you don't need That was such a brutal, brutal crime. And he spent time with these people. He liked these people, seemingly. Like, he got to know these people and then he brutally murdered them. That's a whole different kind of beast, in my opinion. Definitely. And he wasn't remorseful.

no not at all that's the thing and wouldn't even say what happened and it wasn't like self-defense it wasn't like it was just because a crime of passion which would still be messed up but at least there would be like some kind of like motive involved in it just Nothing. Just I had to do it and I did it. How do you deem him safe for society? Yeah, that's the thing. I don't get it. I don't understand it.

Me either. But the families of Laura and Robert were horrified, rightfully so. That was not enough time for what was done to their loved ones. He ended up going to live with his mother back in his childhood home in Ingram, and he had a mandatory monitoring bracelet fitted for his ankle because he was on a 10-year monitored probation. He was quiet, didn't get into any trouble.

Not even a parking ticket. And then nothing. But remembered, he was being monitored very closely up until about 2006. So of course he's going to be quiet. He has a monitor bracelet on. 2008 came around and his neighbors reported into police saying there's all this mail piling up on his front door. And like, we haven't seen him for a while. Like, you might want to go check on him. Like, I don't know what's going on. Nervous.

So they went in. Nothing really crazy was found during the search of his house or anything, but they did find out that his utilities had been turned off because of non-payment. Okay. And he wasn't there. And he, at this point, he's living separately from his mom? Yeah, his mom had actually passed away from...

cancer like years before oh okay so no one's in the house and they're like okay so i don't know what happened to him so a search party is formed because they're like we should probably find out where he is because he is like a convicted felon and they put out posters and they they

thinking he was probably along the appellation trail because that's where he would go so they put up posters along the trail and they were passing them out to people with his picture on them being like just we don't know what's going on like if you come across him maybe be a little careful which i'm

like maybe he shouldn't be out then i don't know that's just me maybe he should be banned from the trail thank you that's literally not be my next line right here is love that he was allowed back there should be banned for life after murdering two people but that's just me like I don't know. People get banned from like whole ass states.

Like, you're not going to ban him from the place where he killed. Yeah, for way less. Way less. And you're not going to ban him from the place where he brutally murdered two people. Yeah. And unfortunately, it's like a perfect hunting ground for him. Exactly. Because he knows it like the back of his hand.

too yeah so may 8th 2008 which what's with may the first one happened in may so i think may something must be significant i couldn't find what but there's definitely significance mother's day a guy named sean farmer headed out to me with his friend Scott Johnson to go fishing along the Appalachian Trail up above Dismal Falls.

They'd been there a bunch of times. They'd grown up around there. They were going to camp there, I think, for just a night, just kind of hang out like they do this all the time. And when Sean arrived, all of a sudden this guy walks up to him at the campsite. He didn't see Sean or he didn't see Scott yet, but this guy walks up to him. He's like an older guy, like kind of like thin and hunched over. And he's like, hey, I'm Ricky Williams. No, you're not.

Hi, Ricky Williams. Like, what's going on? And he's like, oh, I met your friend Scott. You must be Sean. Like, we were just fishing up there next to each other. And he's like, you know, Scott told me that I could join you guys for dinner. Is that all right with you? And he's like...

Sure. Like, why not? Yeah, whatever. Like, cool. So together, like, they go fishing. They do some more fishing together. Together, they had fried trout and beans over a fire. They're all just sitting shooting the shit. And when he's done, he sincerely thanked them for the meal. And they were like, no problem, dude. And they said, like, this is just what you do. But Ricky Williams...

was actually Randall Lee Smith. And after thanking them for their hospitality, he pulled out a .22 caliber revolver and shot both Sean and Scott. Sean was hit in the temple and in the chest. And he was shot in the chest when he ran. at Randall to attack him, to try to stop him. Scott was hit in the side of the neck, then hit again in the back of the neck and in the back when he ran into the woods away from him. Shot three times. Three times at least. Oh my god. He was literally...

in the woods having to plug the hole in his neck with his fingers to stop the bleeding. Okay. They survived this. Both of them survived. Both of them.

both of them wow and they actually fled the scene in smith's truck they took his truck fled the scene one of them is driving with literally the one that was shot in the temple was driving the other one is sitting there trying to hold his neck together like they're driving down pretty yeah and it's somehow it missed like every major artery and like the jugular Somehow. Wow. That's like a miracle.

And they are literally, it's dark out. They're on this like windy road and he can, he's been shot in the temple. And he's trying to like, it's wild. They ended up going several miles away and finally came upon a house, which was like miles. miles away. And a woman named Melissa Miller opened her door for them, took them into her home and immediately called police and called the paramedics for them. Now, Sean later said that Randall Lee Smith's face, he can remember it perfectly.

He said when he pulled out that gun and started shooting, there was no emotion on his face. He stared us both in the eyes and just kept coldly shooting at us. Didn't say anything, just shooting at us. And he's like, it was wild. Now. Smith, actually, Randall E. Smith stole Scott Johnson's Ford Ranger because they had stole his car to go get out of there. Like, stole, I say. Yeah. Fled away because they were bleeding. But Sean and Scott were able to identify him. So he's on the run.

in their car they're able to identify him because someone i think it was melissa miller showed them the missing persons uh poster that was being circulated for randall yes and was like is this the guy and i guess sean was like

Like, that's the guy, but his name is Ricky Williams. And she was like, it's not. No, it's not. Like, this is him. And they were like, yeah, he killed two people on the Appalachian Trail like years ago. So now the police are like, oh, great. We have to go find this car. So they put out a bolo. finally tracked the car. They went on a...

like huge car chase after him. He ended up flipping the truck at the end of it and crashing. He lived, but he was arrested on the spot and charged with two counts of attempted murder. He was brought in for treatment to New River Regional Jail Medical. and he died of a blood clot soon after arriving. It just traveled to his heart. Oh, that makes me so mad. So he died in jail, but he was 54 years old. He looked about 110. If you look up a picture of him, he looked...

Like he was already dead. Wait, you said he was 54? 54. She showed me the photo of him. Actually, while you were on vacation, I was on your computer and I opened the tab by accident. I'm like, who the fuck is this? Like, what? Because it was just a picture.

him sitting there like looking like the crib keeper you know i kind of want to look it up right you should he looks like jigsaw he does like he looks just like jigsaw he's got jigsaw vibes for sure oh my god yeah he looked to be like too okay i don't know who i just looked up but it came up it came up with this like victorian guy and he was like pretty hot and you're like okay wait a second you're like couldn't be him

Couldn't be Randall. Yeah. He don't... he yeah this man yes i'm looking at the same photo yeah that's the pic that i scared the shit out of myself with okay look at this one cassie that one's even worse That's so scary. His badness was leaking out of every pore of them. No, that man is a literal monster. Like, in every sense of the word.

He is as nasty outside as himself. Okay, anyone who agreed to eat dinner in the woods with this guy was a saint. Yes, truly. I would run screaming in the other direction. I'd be like, you gotta go away. What a weird... pathology he has like to eat dinner with people and then murder them yeah Yeah. Such an intimate setting again to just be like, yeah, we'll share a meal. We'll chat. We'll probably learn about each other's lives over a meal. Yeah. And then to do that.

It's so wild. And who knows, like, if those two men didn't survive, who would have been next? Because clearly, clearly this is something that he would have continued. Of course. He's got an MO for sure. It's like he stopped being monitored and he lasted two more years before the known one.

at least who knows right we don't know if there's any out there that that's what i was just thinking you know and it's like he only lasted two years before he did the exact same thing but how scary is it too that like if there weren't any in the middle he just waited for 20 years and you you know he was sitting in that cell being like like i know

I know what I'm going to do when I get out. And as soon as I'm a free man, like, as soon as he got the chance, like, that's what he's going to do. And it's like, you're, so he was clearly like out in the Appalachian Trail a lot. Like, like neighbors said, he was still hiking. He was still going out.

time during his monitor monitoring period and everything people would see him out there like he was spending a lot of time going right back to where he was and it's like so you were to me like from what i read obviously i've not been on the trail but it's like from what i read like you were saying

Like everyone seems like they're real chill out there and everybody's like really kind and just like helping each other out and looking. Wouldn't that like, how does that not rub off on you in any way? Like you just like, and you immediately are like, these two guys are like, yeah, come fishing with us. Because you're just so. some dinner we're just hanging out and you try to kill them like what who are you a monster

Like, truly. The fact that law enforcement knew that he was still hiking because he was monitored while he was hiking, right? Yeah. So they knew he was out there and they didn't find that odd. Yeah, no one was like, maybe you shouldn't do that.

Maybe he's going back to old patterns. Exactly. Because for the end of this. what they find later because they went back out to the places where people were saying they were seeing him in those weeks that he was missing from his home and they found a campsite of his and it had a like

big pile of just crap in it from him. And there was some strange stuff in there that make me question if there's other cases that are going to be linked to him because they found audio recordings of chanting and moaning and screaming. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Of him or of that. Just like sounds. Like they couldn't distinguish. They couldn't distinguish if they were other people or what. There was a lot of like, they tried to attribute it to like the Wiccan religion items, but I was like, yeah, Wiccans don't normally like.

go murder people like i don't know if that's not a violent it's not a violent it's actually all about like worshiping the world and like the earth yeah i was like i think you got that wrong but there was also a police scanner out there and there was a list of like um police codes that would be called on the scanner so he could understand exactly and a ton of knives a ton of different knives

And then they found at least eight pairs of women's underwear. Oh, no. And a pile of women's sunglasses. Oh. And eyeglasses. That's like some wrong turn shit. Yeah. That's some wrong turn Wolf Creek, like... It's terrifying shit. Oh, that's creepy. Because it's like he could have either killed more people and or was breaking into people's campsites and stealing things. And maybe preparing for things.

doing who knows what he was up to oh my god that just gave me like the piles of stuff yeah just it's so invasive like because but i mean best case scenario quote unquote these women weren't killed and they were just that you know had their things rifled through that is just it's such an invasion of privacy and like it makes you so feel like okay well obviously these came from somewhere so am i even safe exactly you know and

lot of people who are on the AT or do camp in general anywhere, there is always kind of a, even as peaceful and as great as a trip as it is, there's always kind of like a, I'm literally in a... canvas sided or like polyester like there is a flap of fabric separating me and the rest of the world and a lot of the times it's more so you're concerned about like wildlife depending on where you are and things like

that not necessarily other people but of course that's going to be something in the back of your mind and just imagine waking up and like getting up and being like where are my underwear oh yeah i can't even fathom that And it's like, okay, I know that it's the only piece. It's not like something ripped through my bag and everything's missing. It's like just this garment. They chose one thing. Right.

One thing. And so you know that someone was there and they know that you are going to find out that this is. Yeah, it's just a. It's so creepy. Well, my mind first goes to sexual assault. Exactly. Yeah. That. Especially because they thought like he could have possibly done it before. And if he has sunglasses and women's underwear, it just feels like they're these weird souvenirs. And also, I think that that would be less likely to be reported.

Or it's not his MO, so he wouldn't be the person. Exactly. That's what I was thinking, too. And imagine like you were just saying, Danielle, like waking up and realizing that and then having to continue your trip. Yeah. Because you're in the middle of nowhere and like you still have to keep hiking. That's so scary. You still have to sleep out there. Yeah.

Well, I will probably tell this story at length and another at another time. But I have had I wasn't on the trail, but I had. Someone when I was in college and my first apartment ever, I woke up to someone in my room. And I essentially I woke up and my boyfriend at the time was sound asleep. And I woke up, I thought it was him, like. Of course. Touching me. Because why would you? And I wake up and I'm like.

pissed that I think it's him like trying to do something while I'm asleep like I was sleeping I'm like what the fuck and I wake up and I see his back turned away from me that is a nightmare and it was in the middle of the night I'm It was New Year's. You're disoriented. So I went to sleep drunk. Right. Oh my God. I was like, what is happening right now? And I turn over and there's a guy standing there and he just went.

oh no no no no no no no and i was just like okay um oh i guess no one else can see me so um i would like the shish the little like symbol yeah And I was just like, I was frozen. Like we talk about, Cassie and I talk about this all the time, like fight. flight or freeze. And I fucking froze. Because what else are you going to do? You're in your most vulnerable position. I was just like, what do I do? And he just backed out of the house and just left. And I was just like...

For literally 30 seconds straight, which is the longest 30 seconds of my whole life, I was just like, what just happened? And I wake up Nick at the time and he's like, he's like, wait, what? Like Liam Neeson, he's like... I'm out of here. I love it. I'm going. I'm getting him. Did he get him? First of all, what are you going to do? Punch him. You're not clothed. I'm not clothed. You're not clothed. And you have no idea what's going on. It's the middle of the night. You guys are.

sober either too we're not sober i mean we're in college we're in college and so i'm just like what the fuck happened and he was like he kind of he didn't do it intentionally But he was just like, are you sure that happened? He's like, because there's no forced entry. And my roommates who lived with me, I had two roommates. All of their stuff was there. Their laptops were out. Our purses were on the count.

like there's nothing missing but like that's clearly what do you mean therefore he was there to like fuck with you you know this is also over 10 years ago now so i'm just kind of like yeah maybe i know because you start questioning like what the hell happened yeah i'm like i'm not

sure, actually. And he's like, maybe you just had a really fucking weird dream. Like, who knows? And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. And he kind of convinced me we go back to sleep. And then the next morning, he's in the shower, I'm getting stuff. ready. And I realized that both of our phones and wallets are gone. Oh my God. Out of our pants, like the pocket of the pants. So I'm like, okay.

this definitely fucking happened yeah you're like okay yeah and so it's just like the invasion of like you are here for a reason And you took these things like that have no value. We're fucking college kids. Yeah, right. We have a flip phone and a dollar, like one single dollar bill. Like, so you have our information. You know where I live. You didn't. Take anything of value.

And you woke me up intentionally. That's the part that just gets me. So it's like the invasion of, like, you are here for this one little thing. And it's just, that was a really long roundabout story. to tell like just so i i understand that like invasion of what the fuck like and this could have led to something way worse oh my god and nothing ever came of this like did you find out who did this no

But you did, Danielle. You found your ID. Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, my God. There's another layer to this story. I'm invested. I'm like, skip my story. Just tell yours. Forget that. So this is I obviously like freak out. And I tell my parents who, of course, now I have really no money. I have no means of communication. I had to find literal change throughout the house, go to a payphone.

and call my my family because this is um like it was like christmas break so my roommates were gone i couldn't use their

Like, everyone's off campus. And that's even scarier, too. Yeah. So I'm just like, okay. So I finally get to them. They, you know, come help me, whatever. We reinforce the shitty apartment I'm in. And... I don't know, like a month goes by and... campus security called me and they're like hey someone turned in your it was like it wasn't my driver's license it was the id that you use to like get into like the dining commons and whatever the fuck and i was like oh okay

Because I was like, I had it reissued, but I do lose things a lot. Okay, well, I guess like maybe I dropped it or something. I'll go get it. And I go in and they're like, oh, here you go. And it's my original one. No.

From my wallet. No. That was taken. Where did they find it? They just found it on campus? They said someone turned it in. They said someone turned it in. So I wonder if like that guy just dropped it somewhere and somebody was like, oh, let me be helpful. Or like, did he turn it in? I don't.

yeah i hate it and i'm sorry how much how much um time in between like there's like a month so i wonder like he could have to like remind you that it happened i know because if i'm thinking like if it was truly dropped like In the moment, I mean, that would have happened like pretty immediately. Someone would have been like, oh, here you go. And I also lived off campus. I mean, it was walking distance, but like if someone just found that on the street near my apartment, they wouldn't.

have gone all the way onto campus and turned it in like it would have had to be i don't know yeah i don't know

So anyways, it was just, my theory is there was construction going on. They were building new off-campus housing, literally right next door to my shitty- apartment and it was break so nobody was in my parking lot because everyone had left and it was just my car there so i think someone was like watching around and they know like it's like we're all your roommates like female too yeah my all my roommates were female and so they probably know like this one girl is alone yeah

And my boyfriend at the time didn't like he didn't have a car. Right. So they would never know. They wouldn't have known that he was there. So they just thought you were alone. my god which is like what were they planning to do if you were alone right and just to think that they were casing your apartment like ah i know like that was purely to terrorize you

Like that was all, every part of that was terrorizing. I know. It's like, okay, so you intentionally woke me up to scare me. That's the part that killed, that's like terrorizing. The shush thing. Oh, I hate the shush thing. As soon as you did that, I screamed. To like let you know that they could get in. And then like no panic. He just like backs out of the place. He just literally went like.

that the shish thing and walked slowly backed out and just shut the door it wasn't like oh shit she's awake i have to go that's even scarier because and you said he like touched your leg to wake you up yep oh i hate it girl i hate it oh my god you just like rocked our shit on a fucking wednesday oh my god i know like a crackadon yeah sorry i mean and i don't mean to laugh about it because it's obviously like no it's like a nervous laugh

But it's like, kind of like, I can't even fucking believe that happened to me. Like, I feel like that was, I mean, first of all, it was so long ago, but also it was like an out of body experience. It's like, this is not happening right now. It's like when sleep paralysis happens every because I get sleep paralysis. And when I it's horrible. And when you wake up, you see something in your room with you.

Every, I see it and I'm, and every time that it happens, I don't realize it's sleep paralysis. So my brain immediately goes, and I'm sure this is what yours did. It's just like, is this really happening? Like, is someone actually in my, like, this is really what's going to happen right now? Like someone's in my room. It's always that like weird like train of thinking where you're just like, oh shit, this is like...

this is actually happening. The thing I feared is happening. Someone's in my room. And luckily mine goes away because it's not real. I can't imagine realizing it's real. Yeah, it is. The things your brain do when you're in... A fight or flight or not even that or just like a situation, a traumatic type of situation. You think you would have a like...

If someone presented me with that and we're like, what would you do? I think I would have had a completely different reaction than what I actually did, which was nothing. Right. Just breathe. Which is what I would do. Because. I don't know. And who knows what would have happened if I did have a different reaction. I have no idea. I don't fucking know. And it's like, yeah, I have. I don't think I've ever told that story on the podcast. But Cassie certainly knows. And yeah.

It's just, you know, I feel for people who have been in those situations and especially ones who you find out later that were in that situation and didn't make it. Right. Because I know how it feels in that. first moment yeah of like what is happening right now somebody is in my room right just like chaos like wow yeah that is everyone's worst nightmare yeah literally

I'm going to have nightmares tonight. Oh, my God. So sorry to derail this whole thing. No, I'm sorry that happened to you. Jesus. I'm glad you're here telling the story today. Me too. Yeah. So anyway.

Yeah. Well, that's exactly it. And when you're camping, you don't even have the... the like luxury quote-unquote of a door like it's just like it's like a zipper literally anybody can just walk into anybody's thing and just unzip the thing i can't fathom that yep and i mean we say this all the time in regards to camping like because a lot of people are afraid to camp outside or do go by themselves or whatever and

I can totally understand that. I mean, I'm a huge baby. Cassie will solo hike and I'm just like, so scared too. But it's like, it just goes to show like my story, everybody else's story that has gone through something like this. Like it happens.

way more often in places you think you're safe it's true it really does and so like that's our biggest thing is we don't want to deter anyone from hiking and exploring and camping because just because some awful things have happened there because awful things can happen anywhere everywhere and it's like the more more cases you're gonna hear that Somebody was just lying in bed in their locked house or locked apartment and somebody comes in. Like, we have like a sneeze full of outdoor.

crimes that have committed on our library that we've done. 90% of them are homes with a lock and a door. Sponsored by Serify. Oh, no. SimpliSafe.com. literally yeah home security like to live in an age that we have that option like people who don't have that like please take advantage of it because you won't ever regret it. Phenomenal. I love my little panic button. I love my little boop boop when somebody opens the door. Yes, it's a comforting feeling. It is.

Yeah, you have that. It's a nice line of defense. All right. Well, thanks for sharing. Sorry that I horrified everybody. How do I follow that up, everybody? Jesus.

Well, I'm excited that you picked the Grand Canyon to go to for your story. That's true. We went there for one story, but it was a long time ago. And I think it's very different than the story that you're telling. But the Grand Canyon is just such a, I think when you think. Yeah, definitely.

It's just so massive, and it's just so different than most of the landscape in the United States. And it's just such a cool park, and it is located in the northwestern corner of Arizona, and it's close to Utah and Nevada. it's or Nevada sorry if you say Nevada Nevada people are pissed oh that's happened to us before and I literally always forget that there's even another way to say it

Like when I try to remember the other way to say it, I'm like, how else do you say that? I know. Well, trust me. We say the word mountains about 5,000 times every episode. And I don't say the T. I say mountains. Mountains. That's how I would say it. Mountains. Mountains. Riots have ensued. But riots. Oh, well, I say the T that actually does exist in Exactly, and people either really love that or fucking hate it. I'm like, sorry for pronouncing words. Yeah, they're like, it's mountains, stupid.

I'm like, sorry. And then you say mountains and they're like, it's mountains, stupid. I didn't know there were so many ways. You are gaslighting me. It's also, I can't know the regional pronunciation of every single place in the entire United States. And is it the beauty of the world that we all speak different? regional dialects shut up and let me talk and especially new england it's like we

We talk a lot different. Say Worcester. How about that? Look at the word Worcester and say it. And say it out loud to my face right now. Say Lemonster. Look at it and tell me that it says Lemonster. Read any town in... Massachusetts. Situate. Say Situate. Hingham. All of them. I don't know. It's like, okay, can we agree when I say mountain, you know... what I'm speaking about. Yeah, that's so funny. I would never even pick up on that because I say mountain.

I never knew I was wrong until I said it out loud on a podcast. Oh, you find out a lot about yourself when you start a podcast. Like, I didn't know that I say rum like rum. Yeah, that's like, apparently that's a very New England thing and I didn't realize it. I found out that my voice is actually not my voice. Somebody was like, you don't talk like that. And my friend of 10 years was like, no, she does. Like she always has. And they were like, no, she doesn't.

I was like, oh, cool. Who knew? Interesting. You know, one word I learned and I didn't learn it that I said it this way until I moved down south. But everyone made fun of me for it because I lived down near Tennessee for a few years. And when I went down there, I guess I say both. or both, instead of both, I add an L into it. Both. Both. Both. How do I say it? Now I'm like, how do I say it? I say both. But you say both. That's like I say like clothes and people think I say it weird. Yeah.

It's just like all these little things and people are like, that's wrong. I'm like, do I have an L now? I feel like I might. If I say like, here's the thing. Did anyone threaten your life for saying it that way? That's the real crux of the issue. So anyway, like, do you have any education at all? And I'm like, yes, I do. You're like, I swear I do. You're like, who cares? This is how I talk. I'm here. Okay. Anyway, we're going to the Grand Canyon. Let's Grand Canyon.

The Grand Canyon, where that place doesn't care how you say it. No. The Grand Canyon. Grand Canyon. It's the Grande... The Grand Canyon. Grand Canyon. The Grand Canyon is 200. Okay, now you're not speaking any language. You're speaking in cursive. This is probably true. Well, it is 277 miles long, which is 446 kilometers. And there are two major cities that are closest to the Grand Canyon. So there's Phoenix and Las Vegas. So it makes it a really popular destination.

Cause it's easy to get to. And it's also not too far from Tucson as well. So there's just like so many different ports you can get into to get there. So it's one of the reasons why it is so visited besides it being. insanely beautiful i've never seen it and i've always wanted to me either it's on my list of places to go i gotta see it yeah i've seen it well i say i haven't seen it i've flown over it

And I can see it from the plane. Oh, that's pretty cool. So that was cool. I love that. I was like, oh, there it is. I'm here. I've been here. Kind of. Can you just touch down really quick? It's like, just like parachute me out. It's funny because it's a national park now, obviously a huge national park, but it was actually first a national monument. It was established as a national monument in 1903 by President Theodore Roosevelt, and he stepped off his train.

he walked over and he declared it as quote a natural wonder absolutely unparalleled throughout the rest of the world and made it a national monument. Imagine having that power. That was wild. I think you guys do have that power. kind of power it's like damn you just like walk off a train and you're like natural wonder national monument i say so yeah it's like the world designates this yes thank you

Well, he was the conservation president and he helped establish like different national forests and national parks. And it's funny because I'm actually working on an episode right now that I'm writing about Theodore Roosevelt National Park. More of his story, which goes like very lengthy and a lot of stuff. But he was part of the Grand Canyon being established as a national park. And...

Like I kind of said earlier, tons of people visit and tons of people is there's almost 6 million people who visit the Grand Canyon National Park every single year. Oh my God. Wow. That's nuts. People want to see that wonder, you know?

It's true. Well, it's also one of those places where you can visit year round. It's not if you go further north and there's snow all the time. You can go there any time of year and visit, which makes it a really cool destination because you're like, I'm freezing. I'm going to go hang out. I'm just gonna hang at the Grand Canyon.

Also, as magnificent and beautiful and wonderful as the Grand Canyon is, it is filled with a lot of stories of death and there's hauntings. There's been plane crashes, helicopter crashes, people fall off cliffs there. There's just a lot. of morbid stuff that happens inside of the grand canyon and as of 2021 around 900 people have died there whoa and

It's a lot. And on average, 11 people die there every single year. Wow. That's a lot. Yeah, I didn't know that. I mean, I can imagine just because there's all those cliffs everywhere and there's wildlife. Well, and the heat. Heat, exhaustion, and dehydration and things like that, of course, play a role. Yeah, and that's a big one there. And then some of it, too, is from the Colorado River.

Because there's drownings because so many people do kayaking trips and river rafting trips down. That's exactly what I'm going to talk about. Hey, that's perfect because that will lead me right into your story. Look at that. Oh my gosh, look at that. It's like we planned this and we didn't even. I'm going to talk about the Grand Canyon or the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon.

And the Colorado River Rapids run through that national park. And somebody that really loved that national park and the Colorado River Rapids was Morgan Heimer. So Morgan Heimer was a 22-year-old guy, and he absolutely loved nature. I think you guys would have gotten along well with him. He had grown up in Wyoming, and from an early age, he just loved being outside. He completely fell in love with, like, camping and swimming.

hiking, just anything he could do outside, he wanted to do. His family said that he was an excellent swimmer and had a ton of outdoor experience. So he'd gone to the University of Wyoming, he studied English, and once he was finished there, he decided...

that he really just wanted to pursue a career that would keep him outside. And so working for a rafting company couldn't have been more up his alley. And the specific company that he went to work for at the time of his disappearance was Tor West. So they hire guides who will take out visits.

visitors out on rafting tours and they can just take in the sights and hang out together. And it's supposed to be a great time. And that's exactly what he was doing in June of 2015. And he was so looking forward to this job. He actually wrote at the end of the previous year.

new year's 2015 he said this year i've gained confidence in every aspect of my life i'm more driven to continue moving forward than ever before i can't even begin to express the depth of my love for this world in writing but this is my thank you note to every one of you who have made this year what it was Aw. So he was really looking forward to 2015.

And he loved working for Tour West. And before this specific trip that I'll talk about today, he had been a guide on many previous trips. He'd actually done this same run that he was set to be doing numerous times before. And all of those trips were successful, one off. without any hitch whatsoever. So this specific trip, they were heading out in June of 2015. It was an eight-day rafting trip going on, and he was going to be one of the guides coming along to lead the trip.

Now, by June 2nd, the group was actually six days into the trip, and they had just arrived at Pumpkin Spring, which have you guys seen Pumpkin Spring? No. it's so cool it's adorable it really is adorable it is at mile marker 213 and it's one of the main landmarks that people really love to visit on a trip to the grand canyon it's this massive orangey rock formation that kind of

just juts outside of the wall of the canyon and it got its pumpkin name because it's kind of round or it is round in shape and it looks like a pumpkin was just tucked onto the side of the canyon. I just looked it up. It is cute. It looks just like it looks like a fall deck. that they were like, this fits nicely here. Like a giant just stuck a big giant pumpkin in the side. He was like, I like to talk about it. It's like fall, bitches. It's really cool. Yeah, right?

And it's even got like vertical streaks going up and down the sides like a real pumpkin would. I love it. The only unfortunate thing about it is that you should not swim inside of it. People recommend that you actually don't go.

too close to it to like don't touch the water because there are super high levels of different metals like zinc lead copper and everybody's favorite arsenic so yeah don't go swimming there i'm literally looking at a photo of a guy touching the water awesome yeah i was looking at a photo of a guy like within the water and i was like you should get out fully immersed within the water yeah that's not safe you have lead poisoning now

You have all the poisonings now. You gotta look at pumpkin rock from afar. Just appreciate it from a distance. Yeah, an aerial distance even. Despite the cute name. Yeah. Yeah, it's misleading. And it probably looks better from afar too, because it's like, ooh, a pumpkin. You need to take it all in.

I can't really tell. You're like, maybe that is a pumpkin. Is it? I don't know. Let me get further from the toxic metals. So the group is heading out to see Pumpkin Rock. They make it there. They get their rafts all settled. They start exploring around. Hopefully they did not jump in. They have a great time.

and at about four in the afternoon they decide that they're ready to keep going and it's also getting later so they're like we're probably gonna set up camp soon so they're getting all their boats set up to take off and while everybody was doing so Morgan who I was talking about earlier in the act leader of the trip, they were standing near a cliff just chatting. And Morgan said something to this lead guide about just taking the rest of the afternoon off.

And as he was talking to the guide, one of the people that they were like, one of the clients, we'll call them, who was on the tour, had a question for this lead tour guide. So the tour guide turned around to answer him, had a really brief conversation. And when he turned around, Morgan was gone, like totally gone. And he was like, well, we were just having a conversation. Like, where'd he go?

That's weird. So he kind of peeks around a little bit and he's like, I don't know, like he must have just taken the rest of the afternoon off like he was saying. So we'll just keep going. Like he must have just had it out.

That was not the case. The afternoon continued and a couple of the people that were on the trip were like, hey, where's Morgan? But they were like, oh, he just took the rest of the day off. But if he had taken the rest of the day off, they expected him to at least come back for dinner and he didn't arrive. for dinner.

The guest ate dinner, they went swimming, and at this point, they really actually are setting up camp. And somebody's like, where's Morgan? He should be back by now. So at this point, it was very clear that something was wrong and everybody was getting very antsy. And he hadn't arrived back by now.

7.26 that night, so one of the group members reported him missing, called the police and reported him missing. Morgan was described as a 22-year-old male, 6 feet tall, 175 pounds, blonde hair, blue eyes. He was last seen wearing a dark colored astral personnel flotation device, a blue plaid long sleeve shirt, a pair of Chaco, I think, flip-flop sandals, a maroon baseball cap, and brightly colored shorts.

He also had a purple water bottle with him, and on the side of his calf, he has a cross tattoo. So... That's what he looked like. That's what he was wearing. And those are some distinguishing characteristics. Now, immediately, a massive search ensued. There were search and rescue teams, park rangers, co-workers, even people on that trip that were looking for Morgan.

using binoculars to see if they could see anybody like lurking in a more secluded spot. They had helicopters, boats, all kinds of means were used to search. And the search radius was about 15 miles all around where he was last seen. And then they even

went as far as a place called Diamond Creek, which is about 12 miles west of Pumpkin Spring, and they could not find this guy anywhere. And it doesn't really make a lot of sense that he would just, like... like go missing or even just that he like fell into the water because he was wearing a flotation device and he was again a very skilled outdoorsman so if he had fallen into the river you would think that the flotation device would have kept him afloat and you would also think that he would

yelled out like ah yeah like hey i'm falling like just anything right hope down here anything but nobody flash yeah literally any noise nobody heard anything and again there's a lot of people on this trip they didn't hear anything so the searcher said at the time quote he definitely has the skills and ability to perform the job and be a person

we have a high likelihood to find. But to this day, he's never been found. What? He just vanished? He just completely vanished without a trace. And the searchers now say that they assume he must have drowned and was carried by the strong currents because there's like whitewater rapids out there. But how did that happen? Yeah. Like nobody heard anything. When did he drown? That's wild. So strange.

So they said, like all the areas where the whitewater is, the rapids are, it's really impossible to search those areas. So the search was scaled back after six full days. And now instead of an active search, it's a more limited search. and pilots in the area search while they're in that specific location, but they're not mandated to be searching constantly. So he literally just vanished without a trace. And when did this happen? This was in 2015. Oh, okay. So this is...

a while ago now. And as a way to remember Morgan and as a way to honor his love for the outdoors, his family actually worked with the Institute for Shipboard Education and they set up the Morgan Heimer Memorial Scholarship Fund. So it does seem like... They think he's not going to return. And according to the Semester at Sea website, the scholarship has the ability to offer a new beginning, fresh perspective, and unparalleled educational experience to a future semester at Sea.

Sea Voyager. And it will be awarded annually to recipients who state a spirit of adventure, love of people, or desire to experience new cultures. And again, this missing persons investigation, it's still ongoing. So anybody with information on the location of Morgenheimer should contact the National Park Service tip line at 928-638-7840. My first thought is... If he did drown and his body was carried away, I feel like...

The splash, the lack of a splash or anyone really seeing anything is kind of odd. But if he was to fall and maybe had like struck his head on something and was knocked unconscious, that's... may be a reason that he wasn't vocal and a lot of times like people say like you think of people actively drowning

from the movies of like splashing around like help help help and being vocal but it's some most of the times it's not like that it's like a silent thing yeah so if he did have some sort of blunt force trauma that rendered him unconscious he couldn't

speak and then he drowned and was carried away and was just never found which obviously doesn't make it any less horrific yeah but that's like my only i'm like that's the only logical thing i can think of but it is just so then what about the flotation device.

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, it's that. Yeah, that's the thing that's super weird. He has like there was he was with a lot of people. And that's also kind of when you were saying that it's like, oh, where's Morgan? It's like, oh, yeah, he's just away for the afternoon. It's like it's like telephone. It's like as soon as one person says something, everyone just accepts it. And they're like, oh, yeah, he's he's away for the afternoon. Right.

yeah but he was also the guide so wouldn't it be kind of weird for him to just disappear for the whole afternoon yeah there was other guides too like he was along as a guide and then there was a lead guide but still yeah i guess that maybe they like took turns leading or something like that but yeah

Like they got their own breaks and, but it's still just like, it's your own trip and you're gone for, I guess they, I mean, they did report it at 7.26 that night. Right. So he wasn't gone for that long, but. It's just so weird. I don't know, but even like you said, he was. In an active conversation with somebody. That's the weird thing is that he hadn't even technically gotten permission to take the rest of the afternoon off. Yeah. And then the guy just turns around and he's gone. Yeah.

And like no one saw him like no one was like, oh, yeah, I saw him go that way. Right. Like nobody said that. That's weird. Super strange. It's like he literally just vanished into thin air. And I guess another possible explanation could be that, you know, he wandered off into the wilderness and... did take his afternoon off and ran into some trouble out there that he couldn't handle, I guess.

Wow. True. And I mean, as experienced, like as an outdoorsman or woman you are person, it's just nature always wins. Yeah. There's always something that you can't prepare for.

for yeah we've i mean most of our stories that when people lose their lives it's like these are very experienced people you hear that a lot yeah you know and so that's a total valid point too it's like maybe he wasn't in the water at all right yeah and he was just somewhere else and something happened i almost lean more to that theory just because of the flotation device yeah yeah yeah because that is that is very odd because you would think that even if he did drown and was unconscious his body

would have been visible i would think i would think somewhere or like i don't know washed up somewhere like on like could have gotten caught somewhere like you would think that he would have turned up

Because they immediately looked for him. So it's not like this was like weeks and weeks later that they were suddenly like, oh, we should look for him. And like, you know, that's when you're like, OK, you might not find him. I guess there was there was three hour, three and a half hours in between the time that he went missing and the time he was.

reported so depending on how fast those rapids are going he could have gotten caught up in them and really gone far but still again where why didn't he turn up yeah oh that is so sad that is so sad there's so many possibilities too because of course in the grand canyon when you're in like certain heat and stuff you can always heat exhaustion confusion like if he was disoriented for any reason or any like

there's just so many things that could happen and we said earlier how huge the Grand Canyon is yeah that there's just so many places that he could be that um it's just it's a really tragic story you just feel so bad for his family because it's like

They just don't have an answer as to what happened to their son or their brother or anything. That's literally what I was about to say. It was just those are, I think, the hardest because the outcome, there is no closure. And I mean, I hate to even say that word.

because you know there is never i i personally believe that there is no closure when you are the person that's losing a loved one yeah that there is no closure for you as far as like you know yeah getting over quote-unquote or moving forward from the left of loss of a loved one but like finality the very least knowing right where their remains are

what happened and having a place to visit them and remember them and even knowing if they are alive or dead like you assume they are not alive anymore in this case but you're like I don't know that because like we don't have a body. We've never seen a body. We don't have any kind of scene or anything like that. Like no matter what, you're going to hold out. I would probably end up holding out hope forever. Right. Like until you gave me a body that told me. I don't think.

I could be able to accept completely that they were gone. Because it's almost like your own survival mode that you have to go into and you would probably just have, it's better to imagine that he is still out there alive. Yeah.

Yeah, really tragic case. I hope that he does eventually get found, I would hope, alive, but even just so his family could have something, you know? Yeah, of course. And I guess the kind of... hopeful side of that is that it was a while ago but it was still kind of recently where there still might be people like That will hear this story or just will hear his story some way and be like, I was there that day. Like I remember seeing him, you know, so there's still plenty of people that might.

There might be someone out there that still has the information that could help. Has even one piece to the puzzle. So call that phone number if you do and you're listening. Yeah. Seriously.

Well, we had a lot of ups and downs, I feel like, in the last hour and a half. That was a wild ride. It's always a wild ride. Yep. But thank you for coming on. It was great to... catch up with you guys again thank you for sharing your stories and um i would say we have to do this again because i'm putting it out there in the future i love that because i was gonna say the same thing i was like we have to do it again Two is not enough.

Well, thank you so, so much for joining us, you guys. This is so much fun. It was great to record with you and hear the stories. Thanks for doing all the research that you did. And I guess for everyone else, we will see you next week or next episode whenever we're putting out another episode. episode so in the meantime enjoy the view but watch your back bye bye thank you for joining us again this week

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