Great Smoky Mountains Murder - podcast episode cover

Great Smoky Mountains Murder

Apr 04, 20221 hr 13 minEp. 67
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Summary

Delve into the tragic 1994 murder of Kelly Lavera in Great Smoky Mountains National Park, initially staged as a car accident. The investigation reveals his wife, Shane, orchestrated the killing with her lover, Brett, for insurance money. The episode explores Shane's privileged past, her family's downfall, and her motive for escaping her mundane life, culminating in a shocking trial and controversial parole.

Episode description

Great Smoky Mountains National Park is the most visited National Park in America. When park rangers discover a jeep that has crashed off the side of the road and find a man inside who is deceased, they immediately suspect foul play. Their investigation brings them down a long family line of money, drugs, and death. In this twisted tale of a horrible fate - greed is the motive.

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Transcript

Intro / Opening

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Great Smoky Mountains Park Introduction

Great Smoky Mountains National Park is a beautiful southern paradise situated in the corner of Tennessee and North Carolina. It is a forested paradise for visitors from all over the country and the world. With rolling mountain views, winding roads through the dense forest, swimming holes hidden in the most beautiful crooks of the park, and caving adventures, your time here will prove to be a memorable one.

The daylight hours are filled with songbirds, wild flowers, and the sounds of waterfalls. The nights here come alive, with fireflies lighting up the trails and the stars illuminating the skies. Here in the dense forest, you feel so far removed from the bustle of everyday life. You can spend days or weeks just wandering the trails, exploring and finding new things around every turn.

These woods are full of enchantment, history, and secrets. If you look close enough and spend enough time here, you might even come across a murder. Welcome.

Podcast Updates and Event Promotion

to National Park after dark. say it isn't so finally doing a true crime episode on a true crime podcast oh my god it gets me every time like Anytime we say, what do you guys want to hear? And then if somebody says like murder, we're like, what? We don't talk about murder on this show.

All right. Well, getting back to our roots. Our first episode was very... heavily murder focused yeah and we've done serial killers and we have done murder we just tend to like go off on different subjects between survival stories and animal attacks and paranormal and wherever we venture off to today everyone asked for a murder episode actually you guys asked for it a couple weeks ago when you're hearing this but you asked for a murder episode we certainly found one

And we are going to the Great Smoky Mountains. But before we start, it is your last chance to grab a ticket to our Moment House event, which is happening at the Crescent Hotel in Arkansas. But you can stream it straight from your house. We're coming to you. You don't have to go anywhere. And we are going to tell some...

Crazy ghost stories. Last chance to grab tickets. Kind of. Because if you change your mind and decide you want to come after the show, they'll still be on sale for 72 hours. But consider it.

Your last chance. Yeah. This is really it. It's it. It's it. We're cutting it off. It's happening. You're getting your free... free merch sorry you're getting your exclusive merch or or not no it's gonna be so fun and we're actually pre-recording this before we go because we are getting ready to head to the crescent we're super excited we'll tell you all about our time at the show but um yeah

Go grab your tickets. It's at momenthouse.com slash NPAD. Yeah, and we actually got a email from a listener who was like, I have to share this with you right now. And they said that their great-grandmother, they were going through... their family's things, and their great-grandmother went to the Crescent Hotel when it was a women's school in the 1920s, and she majored, or no, wait.

1905, I think it was, or 1907? It was the early 1900s, yeah. And she majored in piano, and they sent us a photo of the Crescent.

yearbook it's just like wild it's really cool that people have and we're really excited to go to the building itself explore it in person and also sit down and discuss its history and kind of the paranormal happenings that are still going on there and I mean it attracts so many people from all over the world because of that so anyways without giving too much away we're stoked and please come with us we'd love to have you yes we would

Great Smoky Mountains: Nature and Roads

We really would. But today we'll go into our murder story for you. We are going back into the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, so I won't do a huge dive into the park itself because we did, if you remember, we talked about if there were cameras.

and the Great Smoky Mountains. And we talked about the disappearance of Dennis Martin in one of our more, one of our first episodes, I want to say. So we have a visit this park, but just as a little refresher of what the Great Smoky Mountains is and where it's located. is it's located in the Southeast. It's within Tennessee and it extends into North Carolina. It is the most visited American national park. It has over 14.1 million visitors in just this past year, just in 2021.

ton of people. It is also one of the largest protected areas in the country. It extends 522,419 acres. which is 2,114 square kilometers. The elevation in this park ranges from 875 feet or 267 meters to 6,643 feet, which is 2,020. meters. And because it does have these higher elevations in the 6,000s, 5,000 feet, plants and animals that normally reside in the Northeast up here in New England have made their home in the Great Smoky Mountains. They have black bear.

They have white-tailed deer. They have elk, which isn't in the northeast anymore, but they do have elk, which most of the time we see more out west. They have coyotes, bobcats, wild boars. For plants, they have red maples. They have tulip poplars, dogwood trees. They have pines, green briar. It's just lots of different plant life there. And for thousands of years, this park was occupied by indigenous people. The Cherokee people have historically been here longer than anyone.

and still reside in the area. European settlers came to the area in 1930 when President Andrew Jackson signed the Indian Removal Act, where many people were forced out of their homes. But because of this, this park has a large history of

indigenous people and a large amount of Cherokee people who are still there today. And there's a ton of history to be learned there. On September 2nd, 1940, it was established as a national park after clear cutting was destroying the land. It was established as an international biosphere reserve in 1976.

and a unesco world heritage site in 1983 so this area has lots of protections lots of interesting stuff here this park is accessible by road with a few different roads that go through the park one of the roads here that we're going to spend some time at today is the Newfound Gap Road, which is more specifically known as US 441. This is the main route through Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and it's actually the lowest in elevation. It extends 33 miles.

connects Gatlinburg, Tennessee to Cherokee, North Carolina. It's the lowest elevation. And I say that as it's actually the lowest mountain pass within the park. So you pass over mountains, but you're at a lower elevation and this road.

does have winter time. They do get a few inches of snow every year and sometimes the road is impassable, but it is open year round and it's a popular road to take for hikers because there's a lot of trails along this route and it's also a popular road just to travel through the park there's beautiful views and everything you painted such a nice picture it was a nice recap well

I think Dennis Martin was like episode eight or nine. It was definitely in the first 10. And God bless if you've been with us since then, because you probably couldn't hear our description of Great Smoky Mountains. I don't even know if we did a description. the first time now that i'm thinking about it no you did episode seven you definitely did but i was just saying like audio is a journey okay and

We've had our troubles, but you definitely did a description. Yeah, I think I did too. Yeah, we're here for a totally different reason this time. Very, very different story today. And our story actually takes place back in 1994. Okay.

Kelly Lavera's Mysterious Death

i was three those were the days i was four those were the days you remember them fondly Right, yeah. Anyway, back in November of 1994, a group of travelers were driving down the windy Newfound Gap Road when they noticed that a Jeep had gone off the side. It was like 100 feet down.

Off, it hit a tree, kind of out of reach, but they saw it as they were driving by, and immediately they called the park service, who sent down a ranger to evaluate the situation. When the rangers arrived, they saw that the jeep was nose down, the embankment with the... end of the jeep kind of up in the air front first into a tree and upon looking inside they saw that there was a man who had died in the crash immediately the scene was unusual and sparked a lot of questions

Unconventional Crime Scene Evidence

First, when they got to the Jeep, they noticed that the man was not in the front seat. He had been actually in the back of the seat on the floor. So it's kind of like your Jeep, a two-door Jeep. There's no seats in the back. He's just like in the back part. And they're like, oh.

okay, this is kind of odd. Maybe he was thrown during the crash into the back, but still like odd. They're looking a little bit further and upon further investigation, they found that there was an odd pattern of blood coming from the... tail end of the Jeep, there was blood that had dripped down the back of it. And this immediately made no sense because if the nose is facing down and the tail is up in the air, how is their blood dripping down the back of the trunk? Yeah.

Gravity doesn't work like that. No. So immediately they're like, what is going on here? Something is weird. They brought in investigative teams to evaluate the scene and a medical examiner was brought in to do an autopsy as well.

Kelly Lavera Identified, Homicide Ruled

And when they first came in, they noticed that he had injuries to his head that were not conducive with the crash. You know, he hit this tree. The car wasn't even that messed up. The front end wasn't totaled. The car wasn't totaled. and he had severe head trauma. So things weren't adding up. They do an autopsy and during their investigation into the vehicle, they find a wallet in the car. In the wallet, they find the driver's license of Kelly Lavera.

a 32-year-old man from the nearby town of Seaverville, Tennessee. Now, at first, they didn't know if this was the man who was in the car or if this was someone else, if this car just belonged to him. They didn't know what was going on, so they do the... autopsy, they identify the person to in fact be Kelly Lavera and they rule that his death was a blunt force trauma to the head. They also stated that there was absolutely no way that these injuries could have been from a car accident.

not in the way that this car crashed. Kelly Lavera's death was ruled a homicide, and this launched a full-fled investigation. to what had happened. Now to find out to where, how we got to this point, we need to rewind to the beginning from where it all started because in small towns, everything is connected and it all began with a woman by the name of Alicia Shane. else.

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Alicia 'Shane' Miller's Privileged Youth

Alicia, who had gone by her middle name Shane her entire life, was born in 1966. to two teenage parents. Her parents were very poor and she grew up in poverty as a young child. Her parents ended up getting a divorce and her father left her life entirely. Then when Shane was just seven years old, her mother met a man by the name of Brent.

Miller. He was an extremely wealthy man who lived in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. He was the president of the first national bank in Gatlinburg, which was a bank his father had founded and his father had been the mayor of the town. He was an extremely influential person in the town, and his family name was known by everyone. Shane's mother was a poor single mom in a less wealthy area. She was living in Johnson City, Tennessee at the time. And when she started dating...

Brent, there's some talk, you know, people are like, Oh, why are you dating this woman? She's poor. She has a child. It's very religious area. People were really not into this in a small town, you know, small town communities, they all talk, they all kind of gossip. up and people are like,

Come on, what are you doing? Despite all of this rumors and gossip and disapproval from his surrounding people and people he knew, Brent fell in love with Shane's mother and they got married. After they married, he adopted Shane and he treated her. as a daughter of his own. Shortly after, Shane's mother got pregnant and welcomed a baby girl into the world that they named Kim. So now they had an entire family. They grew up together. They were in a very loving home. They lived in upper class.

Gatlinburg is known as a very wealthy area. It's pretty much it's the entrance of Smoky Mountains National Park. It's the bougie, rich, nice, beautiful place to grow up. And she went to school there. a lot of luxuries that a lot of other people didn't. She was regarded as being extremely social and fun to be around. She went into high school and she was flirty. She was beautiful. She grabbed attention of everyone everywhere. She went. And when Shane was in high school...

She was overall really happy. Her family was very stable. It was just a really great loving home. And she was kind of a daddy's girl. You know, it's like, oh, dad, can I take the car out? Can I buy this? Can I do that? And he loved. her and took care of her and she really just she got whatever she wanted essentially okay brent was running the bank

John Ruppel and Shady Connections

He was the president, and he was known to be a very kind and nonchalant person. He wasn't a super stickler to strict rules at the bank. If he was making these rich business deals with people, he like... to be on the golf course drinking a beer and hanging out with his buds kind of thing. He was just very casual, kind person. And he approached banking in a very laxed way, which was different than his father who had run the bank, who was very strict.

very tight-lipped about things. He was a lot more laxed and just accommodating, very kind, very well-known in the town. And then in the late 70s, a man by the name of John Ruppel came to town. He was a very wealthy man. and he moved there and he bought a 12-bedroom mansion at the top of a mountainside. He clearly had money, but no one could figure out exactly how. Oh, that has Anna Delvey vibes.

It's like, who are you and why do you have all this money? It's like, my dad gave me money. The bank will get it to you. No, wait, is that what she says? The wire transfer or something. Yeah, she's like, my dad will wire you the money. You have...

You do that accent oddly well. I still don't really get it. I guess maybe because I didn't finish a series, but the whole thing's just so confusing to me. And I don't understand. Basically, she just walked in pretending like she had money and people believed. But she had money to give to people. Like she would tip people in like $100 bills. Like where was that money coming from? I think she got like loans or something that she was taking out. Like people were giving her loans. Okay.

I guess that makes sense. Because they thought that she had money to build. And she was just making that up. Yeah, she was just making everything up like she never had. And she told everyone she was like the heiress to some like German person. Everyone's like, sounds good.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I think maybe I lost interest in that because that whole world is just, it seems like an alien planet to me. Like, it's just so far removed. The art world, fashion world. Yeah, same. Wall Street world. Yeah, it's just like, okay, so that was weird. And I guess moving on. Why is everyone so obsessed with her right now? But anyway, okay. So this guy, Rupal. Yeah, going back to John Rupal.

Kind of the same version. How do you have money? Like, where are you getting all this? How did you buy a 12 bedroom mansion in Gatlinburg? But when people would ask, he would just kind of change the subject or he would just be like, yeah, business is really well. Thank you. And that was it. Okay.

Drug Cartel Infiltration and Downfall

shady yeah shortly after two more men arrived into gatlinburg who he was acquaintances with or friends with and one came by the name of jerry whittier and the other was les collins jerry whittier wasn't as like closed mouth and secretive as John Ruppel was. And he actually came into town. And when people asked him why he was there, he said that he had some bad business dealings with some cartels in Florida and he was on the right.

because there was a hit out on him. So why would you tell anybody that? No idea. But he goes out and he's like just talking to people like, yeah, I'm just kind of hiding out. I did some shady stuff in Florida and it didn't work out. So now I'm in Gatlinburg. So now that I'm here, I'm laying low by time. Telling literally everybody. Exactly. All right. Some people aren't meant for this life. Okay. So the three of them, they're together. They...

obviously know each other, and the three of them walk into First Nations Bank, where Brent, Shane's stepfather, worked, and they went in looking to start a business and open up a restaurant in town. After some conversations and their plans that they had together, Brent and the bank agreed that they would help fund this operation. The reality of this was, is this business ended up being a front for laundering money and that these three men were actually drug dealers. Oh my God, this is the Ozark.

Ozark which I actually love I love that show Well, this is real life. That's what they were doing is they were laundering money and selling drugs. And John Ruppel was actually a kingpin cartel drug lord who primarily sold cocaine and marijuana. Okay.

Gatlinburg was once this fun, rich town. Sometimes they would illegally make moonshine. But other than that, there wasn't really like a big drug population here. But when these three came into town, they got half of the town addicted to cocaine. Oh, shit.

Not good. Yeah, not good. And then people were smoking marijuana, whatever. It was illegal back then. So it was a big deal at that time. Now you look at it and you're like, whatever, but that's better than cocaine. But they kind of wreak havoc on this town. And in March of 19... 1981, law enforcement officers seized 614 pounds, which is 278 kilograms of cocaine at the Gatlinburg airport. And lo and behold, who are they investigating when they...

find all of these drugs and who it's linked to, the bank that's funding them and hiding their money. Oh, gotcha. Which is Brent Miller's bank. So immediately... They go under investigation and there was all this talk around town that Brent was deeply involved in these drug operations. And then when they were doing their investigations, they found that there was actually an employee at the bank that was helping the cartel.

setting up fake accounts for their money. Because Brent was the president of this bank, all of the blame fell onto him. There was never any evidence that was found that Brent had direct ties to this drug operation or that he knew anything about it.

But in this small town, this humiliating investigation, it caused a ton of stress on the family and it sent their whole family into shambles. They were the family of the town. You know, everyone knew them. Everyone knew about their family. They were very high up.

They're some of the richest people in town. They brought the first big bank there. They brought a bunch of business there. So when all of this happened, their family fell apart. They lost the bank. And one day, with no warning at all, Brent Miller's complete...

Family Ruin and Shane's New Life

suicide oh my god just all the stress and your whole life just crumbles yeah and that's exactly what it was is just and people weren't expecting it because before this happened he was just such a happy go lucky guy and then that happened and kind of like a little side track of this is that john rupel his mansion is still in gatlinburg and it's like this abandoned mansion now i don't know if it's something you're allowed to hike to but i know that people have just go out on a limb and say no.

You say, no, you're probably not allowed to, but it is this old abandoned mansion up on the hillside overviewing the Great Smoky Mountains that he once probably did all his drug operations in. And I feel like that's a whole different... story is it for sale no i think it's literally just abandoned but i feel like that would be prime real estate

Maybe. Maybe someone owns it. Interesting. Yeah, I don't really know too much about it except that it's nicknamed the castle or the marijuana mansion. Interesting. Why wouldn't it be the cocaine castle? I know. I feel like... That has a better ring to it. That has a ring to it. The Cocaine Castle. We're hiking up to the Cocaine Castle today. The Cocaine Castle in the clouds. Because it's on a hill.

It's like a New Hampshire castle in the clouds, but just add cocaine to it. Yeah. Tennessee version. Tennessee cocaine version. Anyway, after Brent Miller's death, more trouble came to the family. The rich life that they once knew and had was gone. Brent hadn't had any money set aside for the family in the case of his death. And in fact, they were actually a lot less well off than he had led his wife to believe. She thought that they had.

money and really they were in debt and they lost everything. How old is Shane at this point? shane's a teenager she's 17 okay they lost the bank they lost all their money and their reputation and their name was ruined in the town they became these like pariahs pretty much and shane who had loved growing up there and living there and was

so used to being the center of attention for a positive reason because she was so outgoing. She was so fun. People just loved being around her. Now she was looked down upon and her whole family was looked down upon. They were kind of shunned and she was graduating.

school at the time. This all happened right before she was graduating. And after she graduated, she decided that it was time for her to get away from Tennessee. She enrolled in a small college in Missouri and she made friends there. She lived a quieter, less... known life, not as glamorous. She was a poor college student now living like the rest of us. She was just kind of making best of whatever.

Shane Meets Kelly, Return to Tennessee

she had left. When she was in one of her classes, she was in a swim class and that was where she met Kelly Lavera. And that's where this all ties together. Here we are full circle. Yeah. And her past is important and her life's important. So. We start off with her, Kelly Lavera that she met. When she met him, immediately saw he's attractive. He's athletic. He was a bit of a nerd. He loved math and was studying math. And he's a very, very smart person.

well-known and he was liked around the college. He was super outgoing. People were very drawn to him and Shane noticed him immediately and they were immediately drawn to each other. They were both attractive. They're both charming and they both seem to have a lot. in common and they started dating. And it was really soon after that, that they fell in love and got into a serious relationship.

They ended up getting married fairly quickly, and they had two babies together. After a few years, Kelly was offered a job working as a teacher at a college near Gatlinburg. This would be the first time that Shane had lived there since she moved out of there and moved to Missouri. But they decided that this was an exciting opportunity and Shane was excited to finally go back to her home roots and get back to that area. So they decided that this job was a good opportunity and they should go.

However, when they moved back to the area, it was nothing like her first experience living there. You know, she was in Gatlinburg. She's upper class. She gets whatever she wants. She has everything she needs. Now they were living on only Kelly's income.

Because Shane was a mother to two children and she was a stay-at-home mom at the time. So they couldn't afford the lifestyle that she had had before. So they moved to the nearby town of Seaverville and they moved into low-income housing in an apartment building.

Life in Frog Alley and Peculiar Frogs

that had been nicknamed Frog Alley. So quite different than what she's accustomed to. Huge contrast. I know you said that they lost everything and they were, you know, went from being very wealthy to being poor again. I mean, she's still- had the money to go to college and that says something not everyone can afford to get a higher education so she at least had access to that

Yeah. You know, so I know it's probably comparatively a huge blow to her. But at least, you know, she had access to going, she could move away and go to school out of state. Yeah, she still had opportunities. But now she is back in before she was living in this beautiful, almost mansion-like home, and now she's in low-income housing. Right. Yeah. And there's something about moving home that just already makes it weird.

You know? Yeah. And I'm sure leaving on the note that she left in and then coming back into such a small town. Right. It's like, oh, what's Shane doing? She has two babies and a husband and they're in low income housing. You know, I'm sure it was really tough. with like the talk in the town. I can imagine. Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists, but guess what?

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So they move into low-income housing to Frog Alley, and this area actually earned its nickname because the people who built the apartment here didn't, well, they essentially built the apartment on top of a swamp, and they didn't fully empty out the swamp. swamp when they did it. It was previously a marshy-ish land, so they did like enough where it was safe to build something on it, but they didn't do enough that it got...

all the frogs that lived there out. So it was so loud with their ribbits that they were actually could drown out traffic and like cars beeping, things like that. There were just frogs everywhere. There were so many frogs there that you would find them in your house. Oh, lovely. I mean, nothing against frogs, but I don't really want to. And they do get so loud. So growing up in New Hampshire, where I lived on the edge of the nature preserve.

Are they actually called peepers, those frogs? I've always called them that. I don't know if it's a New Hampshire thing and people are going to be like, that's stupid to say, but whatever. It's not stupid. Either way. It's our New Hampshire. It's our New Hampshire thing. Stop. But yeah. The peepers, they get so loud. Like to the point that like, yeah, I've heard them. In the summer, you know, you have your windows open and stuff and they're just like drowned, literally drowning out sound.

So I can, that's all I imagine when you just described that is those peepers. Yeah, but it's frogs and it's like the full. Wait, that is frogs. I thought peepers were the crickets. No.

Oh my god, no. And like the grasshoppers. No. Here it is. Spring peeper. Amphibian. The spring peeper is a small chorus frog widespread throughout the eastern United States and Canada. They are so called because of their chirping call that marks... the beginning of spring okay i guess i didn't even know what a peeper was because i literally thought like

Growing up, my house, my childhood home is in an apple orchard. And in the grass, there's always grasshoppers and crickets that are so loud. And we would always be like, oh, the peepers are out. And because it's just like so. loud with those are you sure you're not hearing the peepers amphibians no they're definitely grasshoppers and crickets okay i'm gonna play you a peeper sound wrong my entire life here it is wait that's a frog yes cassie

Oh my god. I've been wrong my entire life. Oh my god. That is so funny. We're leaving this in, by the way. Because Cassie just had a revelation. I'm like shocked. I'm like, there's no way you were hearing crickets that loud. Well, and I live across the street from a river now and I could hear them. Okay. So it was peepers. Frogs. Frog alley. We get it. Anyway, back to this story. I'm sick of talking about this. Oh my god.

Marital Strife and Shane's Dissatisfaction

They're living in Frog Alley, Peeper Alley, whatever. And even though this was a low-income area, it was also an area that was filled with young people. And Kelly and Shane, being the super social people that they were, they made a lot of friends there. And they would often throw parties.

at their house and they would frequently have people over. Shane was a person who was frequently the center of attention and she loved hosting people in their home. She adjusted to her life back in Tennessee, but she always felt like she was missing out on something.

You know, they were getting by with the money that they had, but they didn't have a lot and they certainly weren't rich and it wasn't the way that she grew up. So after about 10 years of being together with Shane, starting in college up until now, she started getting tired of her life.

She wanted the luxuries that she had before. And she didn't really like just being in Frog Alley, hanging out, raising a kid, drinking with her friends. And she began spending money that they didn't have. And Kelly was their only income.

nice jeep for the family and then shane wanted one for herself and they couldn't afford two vehicles but through a few arguments she decided that she was going to get one anyway so then they bought two jeeps and then shane started shopping a lot and she started racking up their

credit card debt. This began a lot of fights between them and often Shane would put the blame on Kelly for not making them enough money and that it wasn't her fault that he couldn't afford the things that she wanted. So she was just spending whatever she wanted and being like, well, you know what?

Maybe you should get paid more. Ouch. And that's not something you really say to your partner. Also, she's not working. Right. So it's like, do you have a leg to stand on? Probably not. I mean, well, I mean, you said she has two kids. Yes. So she is... working in a sense of you know running a household but as far as adding monetary value to the household income she can't really yeah she's not doing that and I mean it is it's a big difference before she had her stepdad who was

the man in her life who was she could spend whatever she wanted and it didn't matter and now this man who's supposed to be like her person her partner taking care of her doesn't have the money for her to spend what she wants. And it's causing an issue in the relationship on both ends because he's annoyed because she's spending all this money and she's annoyed because she's spending all this money and he doesn't have more. And it's just a circle. She starts getting really frustrated.

frustrated in their relationship. She's also very bored in the relationship, and she started to flirt with a lot of men outside of her marriage, and she was doing it very obviously. Even at her 10-year high school reunion with her old classmates that she brought Kelly to, she was being weird. Kelly was off with her old friends, engaging with them, showing off photos of their children, talking about their life, you know, the things that you do at a 10-year.

reunion while Shane was very close by, but she was at the bar flirting with the bartender. The entire night. Yikes. So then rumors start about her having a bunch of affairs and that she's cheating on him and all these things. And it was true. She was having affairs. She was sleeping with other people. And she was sleeping with one of her neighbors who had...

Shane's Shocking Murder Proposition

recently moved in. He had just gone through a divorce and would often vent about his ex-wife and issues that they were having and how he was afraid that he wasn't going to get to see his own kids enough. And Shane... would vent about Kelly just saying her issues with him, and they kind of bonded over this issue that they were both having. But then one day, Shane joked around with him and asked him, if you could kill her, would you?

And he was like, yeah, if I could get away with it, I probably would. And it seemed like a joke at the time, you know, just venting like, oh, yeah, I could kill her. It's so frustrating kind of comment. But they were venting another time about.

their ex and current spouses and having one of these conversations again. And Shane brought up the idea of getting rid of both of them. She told him that she had been researching and found a poison that would be easy to use. She asked him if he would want to go halves.

on buying it and they could each use it. She was like, here, you want to go have these on this and then you pay for it and you give it to your ex and I'll give it to my husband and then we'll just get rid of both of them. This is dark. Yeah. And that's what he thought too. He's like, hold on, she's not joking anymore. And he's like appalled. And he explains like, he's just venting. He would never harm his ex-wife and he has no like ill intentions. He's just mad and he's frustrated.

and she's like backs off after that she's like oh yeah yeah yeah me too oh same yeah yeah and he's like okay this is this one a dark turn that i'm not into and he ended the affair like very shortly after that conversation well

Brett Ray's Arrival and New Affair

Congrats to him because, yeah, that's a huge red flag. In the summer of 1994, Shane's sister, Kim... ends up moving into Frog Alley into a neighboring apartment, and she rented an apartment that had two bedrooms and decided that she should probably get a roommate and started searching for people. On one afternoon, she had a meeting set up with a potential roommate, and she asked...

asked Shane to come along with her. The person that they met was a 24-year-old mechanic by the name of Brett Ray. He had previously served in the Navy and had recently moved back to the area. He was a handsome Southern man. very carefree, just looking for fun, a bit of a partier. He was nice. He was friendly, outgoing, a little rebellious. He had some small little troubles as a teenager with the law, but he was just kind of like that bad boy.

Southern bad boy kind of vibe to him. But he's very friendly, attractive. And Kim's like, yeah, sure. You can move in. Like, great. So Brett moves in. And soon after, he quickly becomes friends with everyone. He makes friends with everyone in their group. He kind of.

becomes almost like part of the family. They all get along really well. They all like to party together. You know, they're all like in their twenties and just like to have a good time, pretty relaxed. And he became friends with Shane's husband, Kelly, and even would go and help him.

with his car if he needed it. So they all got very close. Things were really going well with the roommate situation with Kim. You know, she was happy living with him. He was happy living with her. Things were good. It was a happy time. And not too long after this, it... became obvious that Shane and Brett had this like flirtation thing that was going on and it was obvious to people around and then things escalated quickly and it turned into a full-blown affair. Did Kelly know any of this?

I think he gets more of an inkling like further in, but at the beginning, no. Okay. Shane began sneaking out of her apartment and she would actually sneak in through Brett's window into his apartment. So she'd like run out of hers, jump into his window, their neighbors, and they were sleeping together frequently. And Brett started.

fall in love with her you know they were together all the time they talked a lot he was seeing he was in love with her he really enjoyed her company and they were seeing each other very often and sometimes they did it like pretty much under shane's husband kelly's nose there were times that they would be having sex and they could hear shane's children and her husband outside in the yard playing because they all shared they're like in a apartment complex they're all up in there yeah yeah that

is take some serious detachment skills or compartmentalizing. I don't know. Maybe there's some type of like... thrill of it where like you could get caught is like the thing that i could think but it's really by your children like that's yeah a little much yeah i agree and just to like i don't know if you hear your children playing and your husband being like a nice husband

to your children while you're doing this like there would be some deep-headed part of me that would be like you're wrong like you're a shit person right now yeah maybe we should do this in like three hours if you're gonna go down that route at least just

maybe wait i don't know just a thought if you can literally see your husband out the window like maybe not a yeah yeah and my thought is like maybe there was some weird thrill that they were getting out of having it there but i mean they were really just it seems like they just didn't care okay at all yeah well

Kelly's Last Night and Shane's Reaction

There's also that. And then one night, Shane and Kelly decided to throw a party from their apartment, which was something that they did pretty often. They invited all their friends from neighboring apartment complexes and just friends in town. And guests noticed that night that Shane was being...

very flirtatious with a lot of the men that were at the party you know and she was pretty used to being the center of attention it was common for her to be like kind of flirty very loud outgoing but she was especially flirtatious with a lot of the guys and then she

was especially flirtatious with Brett. And people saw this, but they saw that Kelly was ignoring it. So they're like, okay, maybe he doesn't care. I don't know. And Kelly was ignoring it so much. He actually went into a side room of the apartment and he went to play

So they're up drinking, they're playing cards, hanging out, and they're doing this until about two o'clock in the morning. Kelly gets up and he's like, you know, I've drank too much, guys. I'm just going to pass out on the couch, which happens to be very close.

to the card table that they're playing at. So they're like, all right, man, like good night. They keep playing cards for about an hour and around 3 a.m. they go home. That was the last time any of his friends ever saw him, was drunk and asleep on the couch. The next morning, police... arrived at the Lavera residence and Shane answered the door. The police delivered the devastating news that Kelly's car had been found inside of Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

and that he was no longer alive. Shane appeared stunned to police, but not as emotional as they would have expected her to be. She was very quiet. She didn't cry. And they thought, maybe she's just in shock. Like, this is her processing what we just told her.

But immediately, the chief of police, who was one of the officers who informed her of this, felt like something was off. In all of the times that he had arrived at family's homes, informing them of their deceased loved ones, they had all asked the same.

one question, and that was what happened to them. Shane didn't ask this question at all. When they told her that he was found in a car and he wasn't alive, that was it. She didn't ask if he crashed. He didn't ask if someone crashed into him. Nothing. There were no follow-ups.

Then they asked if they could come inside of her home and talk to her more, which she agreed to let them do. They sat down in her kitchen and began to ask her questions. They wanted to know what they had done last night and when the last time she saw her husband was.

explained that she hadn't seen her husband since the party the night before. She explained that she had gone out with friends to get some fast food in the early hours of the morning, and when she came home, Kelly was asleep on the couch. She said that when she got home, he woke up and he was

super angry. He started yelling at her, saying that she needed to spend more time at home, accused her of having affairs with other men, not spending enough time with him, said he was very drunk, he was very angry, yelling at her. and then she said that he grabbed his keys and drove away quickly in his Jeep, drunk. As they are talking more, one of the officers notices a pair of glasses on the kitchen table. When he finds out that they belong to Kelly, he puts them on. This officer...

happened to be nearsighted and when he put on these glasses, he could see perfectly. It was in this moment that it raised the question, if Kelly needed glasses that were as strong as glasses that he needed, why would he leave the house to drive without them on? With no further evidence or reason to believe that Shane was behind any of this, they left her house. But it was very shortly after they left her house that they received a phone call that would be a huge break in this case.

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Brett's Frenzied Confession and Details

A man by the name of Jim Burney called into the police department. He had vital information for the case, which no one had even heard about yet. It wasn't in the news that he had died, that the Jeep was found anywhere. There was no information anywhere. This is the morning directly after. I was going to say, it's so quick. Yeah. So to get...

A call-in of a tip of what's going on is like, okay, you have to know something because no one even knows this happened yet. Right. So he called to let them know that earlier that morning, around 6 a.m., he had received a frantic phone call from one of his friends. It was... Brett Raya. He had called him from a payphone in Gatlinburg in a panic.

telling him that he was stranded and had no way to get home. Jim agreed to go pick him up and he rushed over to get him. When he arrived, Brett was distraught. He was sweating and he was covered in mud. When Brett got into the car, the very first thing he said,

to him was that he pushed Kelly down a hill in his Jeep. He explained that they got into an altercation at Shane and Kelly's apartment that turned into a fight. He said that Kelly had overpowered him, and in a moment of self-defense, he grabbed a bag. He just told his friend all of this? Yeah.

He just like gets in the car and immediately starts like spilling his guts. Oh my God. Okay. And then he said that it was actually Shane's idea to put the car into Great Smoky Mountains and have it crash into a tree. Because Kelly had an insurance policy that if he got in a car accident and died, she would get twice the amount of money. And then he spills his guts even more. And he says that this isn't the first time he tried to kill Kelly.

time he tried, he actually cut the brake line on his Jeep so that he would crash while he was driving. But it turned out... that Kelly realized his brakes weren't working, he got off the road and was unharmed. And then the worst part is he actually went to Brett because they were friends and he was a mechanic.

to have it looked at oh my god that is really heart-wrenching it's like who are you how can you do this well okay i get i guess you'll explain it but so he said that in the heat of the moment he hit him with a baseball bat but then in the same breath just said that actually wait i've attempted to kill him before which is a totally different now

set of circumstances we're talking about premeditated murder versus like an act of passion like heat in the moment type of thing it's like oh by the way this happened i'm really distraught but also i was kind of planning this and tried it before right yeah it's weird

Police Investigation and Blood Evidence

Yeah. And I'm sure his friend in the car is like, what the, what did I just walk into? You know, like, I thought you were stranded. Maybe you got drunk, hooked up with a girl. She kicked you out. Now you're like walking around Gatlinburg and normal. Right.

Yeah. 6 a.m. Sunday morning call. That would be my first thought. I'd be like, oh, shit. Like you got too drunk. You don't know where you are. You're on the side of the road. Like, OK, I'll come pick you up. Sorry that's happening. And then this all just it's like word vomit. just like spitting out one thing after another. After this phone call, the police obviously go straight to Brett's apartment and they arrest him.

They tell him the information that they found out and he admits to being involved in everything. He does say during the story that he's the only person involved in that Shane and her children were asleep during the altercation. But the police have a very hard time buying his story. and it's for a few reasons. First, if he had gone in, had this altercation with Kelly, had gotten in a fight and brought him out to the Jeep, the apartment they were in was very small. Right. Right.

You know, they're right down the hall. They're like, this doesn't make sense. How are they not? How is she not involved in any way? But with Brett insisting that he was the only one involved and Shane was not involved, they formally charged him with first-degree murder. But they were very suspicious of what he said, and they started questioning close friends and neighbors.

And it didn't take too long before police found out that Brett and Shay were having an affair. And in the police's mind, this created an entirely new motive. Before, it was just a drunk altercation between friends. could have been an accident, but now they had something that could implicate Shane in the murder. She was involved in this affair with this man, and now there's a whole other twist that wasn't there before.

Still, they had no physical evidence that Shane had any involvement at all and they needed some way to be able to get into their apartment and search the crime scene. They knew that a judge wouldn't issue a search warrant. with this far-fetched confession of self-defense. So they had to think of another plan because from their view, Brett is saying, yeah, I was in their apartment. We got in an altercation and it happened. And they're like...

This story doesn't make any sense. We don't even he wasn't even in the apartment. He's in Great Smoky Mountain National Park. How can we get a search warrant for a place? We don't even know if this confession is. saying the real spot so an officer goes back to shane's apartment to ask a few more questions and again she allows him inside being the cooperative nice southern bell woman she is lets him in and during their conversation the officer notices something that he

did not notice the first time they were there. And that was Kelly's diploma. He went over to get a better look at it because he noticed that they went to the same school together. So he's like, oh, I have a diploma from here too. Goes over to look at it. And when he gets a closer look, he notices a small amount of blood spatter on the corner of the frame. Oh boy.

This was enough to get a search warrant, and shortly after, police came back with medical examiners and the search warrant to search the property. When they arrive, Shane is not her sweet, bubbly, southern... bell charm self, she is not cooperative. She's refusing to get off the couch that she was sitting on and the officers have to physically move her. They have everyone step outside. and they begin to spray the living room with luminol. And luminol is a chemical that reacts to certain enzymes.

including enzymes that are in blood. So it reacts to these enzymes by glowing. And even with extensive cleaning, blood can leave leftover proteins that will still show up. I bet it lit up like a Christmas tree in there. Sure did. They turn the lights off and it reveals a shocking scene.

There was remnants of blood on the couch pillow and the back of the couch. The amount of blood suggested that Kelly hadn't moved at all when he was hit with a bat and actually suggested that he had been asleep when he was hit. Marx then showed his body being put on the floor.

and then dragged. Following the blood patterns, they saw drag marks that actually went past where his children would have been sleeping between their beds and then dragged out of the window and across the grass in the backyard. What? Oh my God. Can you even imagine? The kids are really young at this point. Like this is something that they're not, I think they were like toddlers at this point. You know, they're not going to have any clue what's happening, but. But still, like just.

Evidence of Multiple Attackers

through your next year children yeah whoa and that's their father okay so at first my theory was that brett was just taking the fall for her but clearly he must have at least helped. She can't do that all on her own, can she? I mean, he's a big guy. Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know. Well, that's exactly what police thought.

With Brett's confession, they're like, hold on. There's no way Brett could do this by himself. Kelly was a lot larger than Brett was. He was bigger. He was more muscular. He weighed more. And to carry him and drag him that far. and put him into a jeep would have been almost impossible to do by himself. Also,

The autopsy report revealed that there was more than likely more than one weapon that killed him. While a lot of the injuries looked like it came from a baseball bat, he had other injuries of a weapon that could not be identified. And in their minds, that indicated that there were two killers.

this is so messed up i just don't like the amount of i want to say rage but there is it doesn't seem like a rageful thing it just seems like a selfish oh i don't want to be in my life anymore so i'm gonna kill my husband And, you know, and like this Brett, what is he really even? It's just pure evil. You know, that's what it is. And that's why it's just such a hard story to digest. Well, and there's something different about, you know, when you hear.

about passion murders where people are in the heat of some crazy argument and things escalate and something happens and you know there's time to process and be like oh my god like we things just got out of hand or like whatever it is something's going on is one thing and it's it's horrific either way to be like evidence shows that he was asleep

on his own couch. Well, there's that, but then it's also, there's now two people hovering over you with two different weapons and you have no chance. And you're drunk. You just were partying with your friends. You went to bed because you couldn't function anymore. There's no advantage for you at all. Like you're not doing anything. You're asleep on the couch. You just had a fun night with your friends. Yeah.

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Shane's Accusations and Continued Affair

Okay, I guess tell me the rest. We've gotten this far in. Yeah, you got to know the end now. Well, police, they see all this. And of course, they start questioning Shane, like, what is going on here? What is all this? And she's like, Oh, my God, I didn't even know like I was asleep. And then she starts saying. you know, it has to be Brett. He's madly in love with me. He's obsessed with me. He did it alone. Like he wanted my husband gone. Starts completely blaming Brett for everything.

Brett, after being continuously asked who had helped him, they're like, okay, you didn't do this alone. We don't believe anything you're saying. Tell us. We know it was Shane. Tell us. And he's like, no, no, no. She didn't help me at all. It was actually... Her neighbor, she had an affair with him, and we did it together.

What? And so, yeah, the investigators are like, what? What is this? Like another affair? Like what's going on? So they go over to question him and he denied all of it. He's like, what are you talking about? I ended things with her a long time ago. And then he tells them about.

the poison that Shane wanted to poison her husband. Right. She's like, no, this has nothing to do with me. And I guarantee Shane's involved because she was talking some weird things with me about wanting me to help her kill her husband. So they're like, okay.

This is so much indicates Shane. We have more evidence. There's all this blood in her apartment. There's no way she's sleeping. And they formally charge her with murder. Shortly after their arrest, they each posted bond and they resumed their lives. The trial was not set until a year later. So Shane claimed to have ended her relationship with Brett.

because he killed her husband. And she ended up moving outside of her apartment and into a friend's house outside of town. And Brett continued his life there and continued to work as a mechanic. While they think they're like, oh, we're not together. We're not doing anything. And shortly after they were released, they found them. meeting up in hotels for late nights, and they obtained proof that they were still in a romantic relationship.

The Trial, Guilty Verdict, and Loyalty

On March 26, 1996, the trial for Kelly Lavera's murder began. For Brett Rea, it was a very easy case. They had physical evidence and a confession from him, and that was enough to put him away for life. For Shane, it was a little bit harder. She never admitted to any crime and there was very little evidence. Her testimony remained that she was asleep during the entire thing and that Brett acted alone. And Brett this entire time was maintaining his story? Yeah.

He loves her. He is holding tooth and nail that she had absolutely nothing to do with this at all. That's insane to me. That is absolutely out of this world. She's literally like pointing at him being like, it's him. And he's like, yeah, it's me. It's not her. Imagine being in that type of like warped sense of relationship. Yeah. I don't know. I guess I've never loved somebody that much.

to do that you know like I would never do that sorry no especially if like it's gonna help you save your own life and she even went on stand and she testified that he was the one who did everything and that she was sleeping. And he was sitting right there, watched her. He never came up on the stand. He had the opportunity to testify and be like, she was involved. She asked me to do it, whatever. Never came up.

prosecution of course harped on if he killed your husband and he was behind all of this why are you still sleeping together and her answer was She claimed that he was threatening her and that he was forcing her to have this relationship with him. Police, though, were tailing them and they saw their intimate relationship up close. You know, they were really watching them. They even saw her bake him a cake for his birthday. Yeah.

And like they were doing things that couples do. It wasn't a threatening. It wasn't like she came over once a week and they slept together and he was angry or like, you know, like it was like they were hanging out all the time and she was acting like a lover to him.

Right. And you know that behind closed doors during all of those meetups, they went through this whole thing, you know. Oh, definitely. Babe, I'm going to, you know, point the finger at you, but don't take it personally. Like, this is the plan, you know. And he's like, okay. I'll hold up my, you know, it's like a whole act. It's a whole thing that was discussed at length, I'm sure. And I don't know any of this for...

fact or anything, but I imagine the conversation went something like, I have two children. They don't have a dad. I have to take care of them. We'll blame it on you. You'll get out. You'll be out in 25 years and then we'll be together. Like something like that.

You know, or we'll stay together through jail. I'll be there for you for everything. But like, I have two kids. I can't go to jail. Yeah, that's a very valid point. I forgot about that. That's what I imagine happened. I don't know that for a fact. I'm just.

Putting that into my brain. But that's what I picture. But the prosecution is questioning her like, okay, you're still sleeping with this man. She's like, he's threatening me, blah, blah, blah. And she never backs down from any of these claims.

Brett, like I said, never counteracted what she said, and they still didn't believe her story, though, you know, especially because they did their own investigating, and they found that if Kelly was to die in a car accident, his insurance policy would pay twice as much. So they very much believed that they both carried out the murders. They both put Kelly into the Jeep and then Brett drove to the Great Smoky Mountains.

And Shane stayed home and cleaned everything up because that was another thing that was missing. It's like, OK, so you're saying that just Brett. Killed him in your living room, dragged him out of the back window, put him in his Jeep, came back, cleaned up your entire house. Without your knowledge. Without your knowledge. You were just dead asleep this whole time. And your kids, totally asleep. Nothing happened. This is very, very far-fetched here.

It's like one thing, you know, if you lived in a mansion and it happened in your library and you're like... If you're on Cocaine Castle. Yeah, if you're in Cocaine Castle over there and you're like, I was asleep the whole time. I had my white noise machines on and I was two acres away. I was in the West Wing and yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like you're in a two bedroom apartment and it's like 300 square feet.

Right. They don't believe a word she says. It's just annoying as hell when people think that they can trick law enforcement, especially when it's something so blaringly obvious like this. You know, it's like, all right, just give it up. Like you're wasting everybody's time and resources and you're dragging this out, I'm sure, for Kelly's family, whatever family and friends that he has. And it's just so blatantly obvious. And yet you're just going to go down with the ship.

of sticking to this... stupid ass story it's just it's so disrespectful and it's so i mean i don't even know what else to say other than it's just wrong and i just don't get it because it happens all the time yeah i agree it's so wrong and it's just For me, it just shows that there's no remorse there. Because if there's remorse, you're like...

Okay, let's just reach your plea bargain. I don't want to put the family through this. I've done so much destruction and heartache already. And it's your family. You've been together with this person for 10 plus years. Yeah. You know, it's like people that...

that you've grown to know and love. And yeah, it's just such a lack of empathy. And yeah, like you said, no remorse at all. Yeah, just horrible, horrible people. They're in trial, they go through all their testimonies, closing arguments and everything. And then the jury comes back and the jury didn't believe her testimony either. They come back very quickly after deliberations and they issue a verdict of guilty of first degree murder for both of them. There we go.

Shane's Parole and Final Reflections

Before their sentencing hearing, though, Brett and Shane made a deal with the prosecution. They made a deal that they would plead guilty to first-degree murder with no ability of appealing their conviction, but they would each have the eligibility to be paroled after 25 years. Shane Lavera's first parole hearing happened on October 22, 2020. The board then delayed another hearing to have her undergo a psychological evaluation.

She had another hearing on April 29th, 2021 and voted four to two to grant her release. Oh, come on. Come on. She was released from prison in January of 2022. Oh, good. That's... Don't even... And so Brett is still in... prison brett is still in prison she is now a free woman and she's out okay so there we go everyone there's your murder story there it is and i hope it holds you over for the next one year because we're not doing them again

It's just like, it's so awful to hear that, you know, Kelly lost his life for no reason. And now she's out and living hers. And it's just, I think it's very infuriating because. It was such a senseless death. And then her children lost their father, you know, and their mother too, you know, went to prison and her children went to live with her mother who ended up raising them. And I don't know like where they are now or what. going on with that now, but it's a lot and it's a very, very sad case.

Yeah, like you said, it's just the word to describe it is senseless. And that's why I think it's very difficult to discuss things like this and stories like this, because there is no silver lining. There is no lesson learned. There is no, like, anything to take from it. I guess the lesson here that I get, the thing that I take from this is if you need a sign to get out of your shitty relationship with a person who doesn't treat you right, this is your sign.

Because this kind of stuff happens, you know, like and I mean, Kelly was treating him horribly for a long time. She's flirting in front of people, spending all his money, doing all this stuff. And then she goes around and then literally kills him. Everyone, if you're listening.

and you're in a bad relationship and someone is treating you really badly. I know this is extremely excessive, but it does happen. Like this is your sign to go live your best life and be your best self and you don't deserve that and you need to go out. and go be single or whatever like because stuff like this really does happen and this is a form of abuse and this is an abusive relationship that just unfolded yeah it is and it but it also makes me sad because obviously we don't know

what Kelly's side was. But to me, just based on the very minimal information that I have that you just gave and context is that he was a loving father and husband that wanted to make his marriage work. That is what I got from that. And so that's why it's also really difficult because it wasn't like this hostile relationship dynamic that they were both at each other's throats and he was beating her and she was having affairs on him. Like, it wasn't like that.

so no it just seems like he was a very he was just such an innocent in this and he just got you know his life taken away senselessly so i mean we could go around in circles about it all day but that's just i guess why for me it's just so difficult because every time There's a story like this when it comes to relationships and murdering spouses and things like that. It's like you can just get a divorce. That's a thing that you can do. Yeah. I mean, this was definitely fueled by greed.

You know, she saw if he dies in a car accident. I'm going to get twice as much money if he died under a different circumstance. You know, this is definitely money motivated. She didn't like her husband anymore. She wasn't into it. She's having affairs. She wants her rich lifestyle. And that's the only motive, which is horrible, a horrible motive. And it's just, it's extremely sad and horrible. And everything I read about Kelly, I didn't read one single bad thing.

It wasn't like, you know, he was mean to her or he was abusive. Like you said, I didn't read one negative thing about him at all in any of the research that I did. Well, this reminds me of the one you did in... Rocky Mountain National Park. Yes. Harold. Was that his name? Yeah. Or whatever. Henthorn. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Same type of thing fueled by just greed and obviously having no compassion or care for.

their significant other yeah i just hope wherever shane is she is making better choices and being a better person because she really has proved to not to be a great one but she is out and

Episode Conclusion and Farewell

Yeah, that's my story for today. Everyone wanted a murder story. This is certainly a murder story within a national park. Second time visiting Great Smoky Mountains. I think that's everything that I have for today. Well, thank you so much for telling it, I guess. I did, you know, every time we do an episode, I enjoy it in some way, but it's just some are more difficult than others. And this was one of them. And speaking of murders in national parks, fun fact. Fun fact after a murder. Fun fact.

Obviously, we're heading to Arkansas for our moment. Sure are. Pop quiz, everyone. Think about this. We both know the answer. But does everybody know what national park? The first National Park Service employee was murdered in the line of duty in. We'll revisit the answer in our next episode. Yeah. Or maybe during our moment. Or maybe both. Well, I guess maybe we just gave it away because we said Arkansas. And people could just Google it.

No, people aren't going to be like, wow, I really don't know the answer and I'm going to wait a whole week to figure it out. It's in Hot Springs. It's Hot Springs. Wow, that was like not even, you didn't even give people like a minute. Well, come on. They got it. Pop quiz. This is the question. Here's the answer. I'm just excited to say. Yeah. So.

We don't know if we're going to have time to go to the national park because there's just so much to do in the area we're going to be in, but we'll keep everyone updated. Please. Go to momenthouse.com slash NPAD. Grab your ticket to our show. It's right around the corner. We can't wait to see you guys there. It's going to be a lot of fun. So there's that. Yeah. But in the meantime. If we don't see you in a few days for a moment, we'll see you whenever our next episode airs.

We have no idea what's happening. We don't know what our schedule is. Like episodes just come out all the time and we're just recording all the time. So we'll see you when we see you. And in the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye, everyone. See you at the moment. See you at the Crescent. Thank you for joining us again this week.

If you have a trail tale you'd like to share, send us an email at npadstories at gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD Podcast. Become an outsider by joining our Patreon where you'll gain access to monthly bonus stories and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our partners, you're supporting our show.

To access our special discount codes along with source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For information on this show, to shop our merch store, sign up for our newsletter and more, visit npadpodcast.com. And if you're enjoying the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

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