A Serial Killer in Yosemite

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Hey everybody, welcome back to episode four of National Park After Dark. I'm Danielle. I'm Cassie. And as always, we are very excited to have you guys back this week listening to our stories. If you want to follow us on Instagram, we have a lot of updates of what's going on. Our Instagram is nationalpark. after dark you can find us on there we have sneak peeks and previews and kind of hints of what's going on in our next episodes and also we do a lot of follow-ups with

our episodes that we post with information. So you can follow us on Instagram at National Park After Dark. And you can also get in touch with us on... gmail and padpodcast at gmail.com a lot of people have been writing in with their personal stories

and just comments and questions about the podcast itself we're always happy to respond and email back so if you have any of the above please email us and of course we have a facebook group as well national park after dark lastly thank you to our patreon members we're getting new members every week

And we are so excited. And if you aren't a member, but you're interested, you can go on our website, mpadpodcast.com, and you can click the Patreon link, and it'll give you all the information on that for you as well. Follow-ups from last week. How are you feeling about last week's episode? I feel like your gruesome story just kind of came out of left field for a lot of people. Yeah, I agree. Of course, Nosebead made her guest appearance on there and she was a hit. It's a bead nose. I'm sorry.

Obviously. Obviously, it's Bean Nose. Show some respect. We want to thank everybody again for the positive responses to such a difficult and heavy episode. It was something that's definitely stuck on my mind over the last few days. I think that...

There was a lot to learn there, and I'm glad that there was such a positive response to something that it's just... it's heavy material and it was hard to talk about the whole both of our stories they were both hard to talk about and hard to tell so it was nice getting such positive feedback from the way we did tell it yeah so all right well

this week it's just gonna be cassie telling us a story i have settled in obviously you can't see but i'm literally wrapped up in a blanket on my couch with a mug of kombucha ready to hear of right by the fire the fire's crackling in the background you have the perfect setup to hear there's snow gently falling outside I'm just living the dream right now. All right. Well, where are you taking us this week?

Well, this week we are heading to Yosemite National Park. And this week's episode is for all you true crime fans out there. I know that we have a lot of true crime fanatics who are listening and want to hear another story.

we are heading into some real true crime real true story hard stuff to listen to so just a forewarning before we get started okay so just a background of yosemite national park it is located in california it is one of the most visited parks in the country it has about 4.4 million people who visit there every single year it's a beautiful park it has mountains it has cliffs it has huge

waterfalls it's just it has lots of wildlife it's a really beautiful place i've been there before i think it is beautiful it's magical i understand why people go there have you been there before i have not and it's like a sore subject Because on my way from New Hampshire to Washington, I took the long way around. Well, a longer way around. I went out into Colorado and then went into Nevada and then down towards Death Valley.

like into death valley and then i was gonna go straight up and hit some of the parks on the way up the coast up into washington and i was driving by signs for yosemite left and right like i was miles away from the entrance and because As I was traveling during not only one of the peaks of COVID, but also...

when all the wildfires raging out there, you had to make reservations to get into Yosemite, which I totally understand. But the way the reservations were open versus... the time i was traveling by there it just didn't line up right i had to just drive by and put my hand that's so sad As I was driving by all the time. Watch it pass you by. Yeah. So I was really close and I'll definitely go back, but I didn't get the opportunity to.

so yeah i definitely think you should go at some point i was only there for two days and i would like to go back and spend a lot more time there But anyway, our story, I am going to dive deep into Yosemite serial killer, Carrie Stainer, and he was convicted of this crime.

So we know a lot of information and we actually know a lot of information on his crimes because not only was he convicted, but he confessed to everything and he gave in-depth detail of exactly what happened. So when I'm telling this story, it's because we have... interviews with him that describe exactly what he did. And with Carrie Stainer, I think it's really important to go back into his early childhood and his early life because there were a lot of significant events that happened.

during that time that kind of lead up to his life later on. I want to start his story out from when he was a kid. So Kerry Stainer, he grew up in Merced, California. It's a pretty small town that's not too far from the entrance of Yosemite National. It's a pretty small town. It's a farming town. There's a lot of peach farms there, I guess.

Kerry, he was the oldest of five children. He had three younger sisters and a younger brother. He grew up in a middle-class community with his parents and his siblings. He had what most people would consider a pretty normal life. His father worked in a peach factory.

nearby and his mother was a stay-at-home mom. They were both good parents. They were loving parents. His mom was described as being a little bit more aloof and cold because she raised her children with more discipline rather than being mother-like. loving and nurturing. And the beginning of Carrie's childhood was very uneventful.

nothing significant happened. There wasn't reports of abuse or anything like that. But on December 4th, 1972, the Stainard's whole family was ripped apart and it was changed. Carrie's younger brother Stephen, who was only seven years old at the time, was walking home from school when he was approached by two men named Kenneth Parnell and Irvin Murphy, who approached him and pretended to be part of a religious group.

Kenneth Parnell who is one of the men was a known and convicted child molester who had served time in jail and was now out they approached stephen and they asked him if they thought that his mother would be willing to donate money to their religious group and stephen said yeah Yeah, I'm sure she would. They offered Stephen a ride home to his mom's house. So Stephen gets in his car thinking that he's heading home. They're driving. They drive right past his road.

And Stephen looks up and he says, hey, that's my road. Where are we going? And Parnell says, you know, we're just going to stop at a payphone and see if your parents will let you sleep over, have a sleepover with us. So Stephen's like, okay. Parnell is...

pretending to be a pastor. So Stephen at this point feels pretty safe. He's not worried. He thought pastors were safe. So they get to the pay phone. He calls his parents or pretends to call his parents. And then he comes back to the car and says, you know, your parents said it's fine.

We're going to take you and we're going to leave. And he continues to do this for a few more days that he has him. Eventually, he comes back and he tells Stephen that he went to the courthouse because his parents didn't want him anymore.

and that he now had custody over him and that he would be his new dad. Oh, God, that's so sad because thinking about it, you, I mean, even as adults. You see someone in a position of power, whether it be a policeman, a pastor, a firefighter, just someone that you're looking to that you don't really second guess or question.

what they say. And especially as a child, you don't know better to question things that are being told to you, especially if they're saying, oh, I spoke to your family. Yes, it was really sad. Stephen really did believe that he was safe because he thought that Parnell was

a pastor and he thought his parents had given him permission to be with him and it was really sad because he ended up abducting him and he ended up abducting him for seven years when steven didn't return from school his parents notified police immediately They were hysterical, frantic, and the police started searching for Stephen, but they had no leads and they had no idea what happened to him. There were no witnesses. No one saw anything out of it.

ordinary there was really absolutely nothing to go on because he just vanished this really tore apart their family their mother who is already described as cold became even more distant from her children and Their father was so heartbroken over it that he also became a lot more distant as well. Also, Stephen and Carrie were really close. Carrie loved his little brother. They spent a lot of time together. They escaped.

and played basketball, normal, typical things that brothers do. As time went by, Carey started to feel really neglected because his family was so detached. and he really felt like he was abandoned and Stephen was always perceived by Kerry as the favorite son. So when his family was so devastated when he disappeared, he really felt like his parents didn't care about him anymore.

Which is so upsetting because you can kind of see both sides of that. As a young child, obviously, you don't understand the gravity of the situation. as an adult coming from an adult or a parent and trying to carry on as present loving parents to all your other children when you're going through such a horrific experience and heartbreak, it must be so difficult to maintain that same level that you had before as far as relationships with the other children. Of course. But at the same time.

coming from, you know, his point of view, as thinking like, well, now that Stephen's gone, they don't care about any of us anymore. So everyone was affected. Everyone was affected by this, the whole family. And police continued their search for Stephen. But again, there was really nothing. No one saw anything. No one knew anything. So they were searching, found nothing. But little did they know that Stephen was actually really close by.

So Kenneth Parnell was staying at a lodge outside of Yosemite. And after he abducted Stephen, he brought him back there for about a week where he drugged him with cough syrup to sedate him. He wanted to keep him confused and sedated for a long time. And he actually began telling him that his new name was Dennis and he was his dad. He had him sedated and drugged this whole time, believed his parents didn't want him. and just horrible absolutely horrible what they did to this little boy

Parnell quickly realized that he wanted to get out of the area to avoid Stephen being recognized or police seeing him. So they went around different areas of California, kind of bouncing back and forth for a while. They ended up settling in Compshi, California, which is a very small town, kind of north. of where they were before okay he had been with parnell for a long time so it had been four years now and parnell was now his new dad but he was also

sexually assaulting him this whole time. Parnell decided that it didn't seem like too much of a risk of Stephen running away and leaving, so he decided to enroll him in school. And back then, back in these years, they didn't have computer records where you were really focusing on or where you could look up people's records. So he just enrolled him as Dennis Parnell, his son, and there was really no questions. Which is wild. Which is wild. To think about now.

That would never happen now. I mean, you would hope that would never happen now. So this school that he enrolled him in was about 300 miles away from Merced and his family over there. So he was still in the state of California, but I mean, he's pretty far. And fast forward a few years later, Stephen's 14 and he's in high school, still living with Parnell. He's been with him for about seven years at this point. So I'm assuming that he has Stockholm Syndrome.

to some degree yeah it was he was dependent so Exactly. He was pretty dependent on Parnell. It was where he lived, where he got his food, where he got his clothes. He didn't believe he had a family that cared about him. He was also a victim of sexual abuse for years at this point. He was very torn down and very... manipulated and controlled by this person since he was a child so

Parnell actually gave him a lot of freedom. He was allowed to go hang out with his friends. He could party with his friends. He smoked cigarettes. He came in and out of school as he pleased. He really didn't have a lot of rules at home. And he also had a girlfriend at this time. So he was kind of what seemed like from the outside a normal teenager. You know, he was drinking, he was partying with his friends. He had a girlfriend and everyone who met and talked.

to stephen described him as a very nice person he was a nice teenager he had friends yeah so at the same time that all this was happening carrie was now a senior in high school and he was known at his school for being very artistic he liked to draw cartoons a lot he was a bit of a loner and also at school he was known as the kids

whose brother was abducted. So, I mean, that must be pretty hard being known as that. Well, you're being known for an event that was outside of your control and that is also devastating. at the same time and kids are mean like i'm sure he faced bullying not and making it sound like sorry for carrie but

What he ends up doing is horrific and I don't feel bad for him at all, but he did have some trying times as a child. It was around this time in high school that he actually started becoming really inappropriate with girls and women. He actually exposed himself to one of his sister's friends. and he started making sexual remarks towards girls and he would try and get them to be in relationships with him and ask girls to be his girlfriend but no one would he was people thought he was creepy

It was pretty much it. He couldn't get a girlfriend. He seemed really creepy. Kind of the opposite of what Stephen was. Stephen was well liked. He had a girlfriend. He was really nice. He wasn't inappropriate.

and all while he's going through all this really traumatic stuff and carrie not that he hasn't had trauma but he has a loving non-abusive home right and steven is just kind of ying and yang type of situation exactly very opposite so stephen's at the school for a while and then parnell like he usually does decides to move him again to avoid

getting any suspicion or being caught from police, avoid Stephen making too long of connections with people where he would tell someone what had happened. So they moved to a really remote town.

in it's called manchester california and it's located near the coast now stephen is 14 years old and parnell was a pedophile he was not interested in Stephen anymore at this point. And he actually decided that it was time to get a new little boy and abduct a new little boy. So he recruited Stephen to help him.

who's super fucked up and horrible. He has these attempted abductions, but none of them are successful. And later, he even tells interviewers that this was on purpose, that he actually sabotaged all these kidnappings. Because he didn't want anything bad to happen to another little boy. Yeah, exactly. So still just being like in such a horrible situation, still being such a good person. Parnell gets aggravated. He decides that Steven is not equipped.

to do this and he actually bribes one of Stephen's friends with drugs and alcohol to help him abduct this little boy and I don't know if he told him what the plan was i'm assuming not but for some reason this kid decided that drugs and alcohol was a good exchange for abducting a little boy so on february 13th 1980 he goes with one of Stephen's friends named Sean Poorman.

and they see a five-year-old boy playing outside his house. His name's Timothy White, and they pull over, and Sean gets out, and he ushers the boy to come towards the car. The little boy is immediately freaked out. He refuses and he tries to run back into his house. Sean then chases him before he gets into his house and drags him back to the car. And this little kid is kicking and screaming the entire time. So just like absolutely... Like this is a traumatic.

This is a big scene. I don't know where his parents were. Maybe they were inside and playing music or showering. I don't know. You don't expect your kid to be abducted from the front lawns. The same thing happens to Timothy where Parnell... drugs him for about a week and tries to convince him that his name is Tommy instead of Timothy. Timothy is just absolutely traumatized by this. He is terrified the whole time. There's no convincing him that his name is Tommy.

He's really scared. He's like, I know better than this. I know what my name is. I know what happened to me. For a five-year-old, that's pretty... legit yeah so he was really fighting him on this parnell even went out of his way to this little boy was had bright blonde hair he dyed his hair brown so he would avoid being recognized because their students started to be like wanted posters posted all over the area timothy goes back into the home with stephen and parnell

And Steven just sees how upset this little boy is and he feels so bad for him. And after about two weeks, he decides that he needs to do something and he needs to help him because he doesn't want this little boy to go through what he has. Well, he's seeing you. Yeah, he's seeing himself in this little boy and his situation and what happened to him. And he's serving as sort of a mirror.

you know, for Stephen to look into and reflect on. And, you know, it's obvious what the future holds for this little boy if he doesn't intervene. Exactly. So he comes up with a plan. and when parnell goes to work stephen takes timothy and they leave the house and they just start walking and they're in a really remote area so there's not

a lot of things around and they're walking for a long time. And eventually a truck stops and picks them up. And Steven was originally planning to just bring him back to his house.

and drop him off there but when he's talking to timothy he has no idea what his address is and he doesn't remember where he lives either so he takes him to the police station and at this point stephen has been abducted for about seven years he's never tried to escape but he arrives to the police station and he says something that is later known to be just engraved in the public for years and he walks in and he talks to the police and he says i know my name is steven

And that sentence that he says later becomes a book called I Know My Name is Stephen. And it also becomes a movie all about his story. So he becomes pretty famous. And the reason he became famous was because he was abducted for so long. And the reason that he... escaped and people found him was again was because he saved a child from what he knew was going to happen so the media the news everything started covering his story he ended up on good morning america

He did a lot of interviews and he was known across the nation as a hero. That's incredible. I mean, that's incredible. After everything he's been through to do that. Absolutely.

Very incredible. And at one point, they're having a news conference. And this is right after he escapes and is reunited with everyone. And they're having a news conference with Stephen and his whole family. And Carrie is there too. Everyone around them. is really happy it's like a joyous occasion the whole public is excited and on video you can see Carrie in the background stone face no smile

not happy, just standing there while everyone else looks excited and happy. He just didn't seem happy at all that Stephen had returned. Yeah, just visibly like... upset at the situation when it should be one of the best days of your life. Exactly.

It was because Stephen was now getting all this attention. He had gotten all this attention when he was abducted and Carrie wasn't getting any attention. And now his brother was back and the whole world was looking at him. And Carrie, again, was feeling neglected. And like no one cared about him because Stephen was getting all this attention. And also he had a little brother in his house again, which he hadn't had for the past seven years. So this was a whole.

huge adjustment for him. But that was one thing that was really noted was how not happy he looked to have his brother home while everyone else was very excited. So Stephen comes back to his house. He goes back to school. He gets back to school and he is... bullied constantly. His case was so well known that everything about his case was heard. So the kids at school knew that he was sexually abused and they actually started making fun of him for it and questioning his sexuality.

Because he was abused by a man. How? I just can't. With children. And I don't mean to laugh at it. I'm just laughing out of disbelief. Because kids can be so mean. And I remember. Just being in school and seeing it, just examples of it every single day, obviously not to this degree, but kids are vicious.

They're so vicious and so mean. And Stephen just came from years and years of abuse. And they think part of why he... also didn't come forward before that it was because he didn't want to tell people about the sexual abuse he had gone through and all the really horrible things that he had gone through over the years so now he does come out he saves he saves a child

He comes home and people are blaming him basically for his sexual abuse and they're making fun of him for something he was afraid to tell in the first place. Just the worst situation. Yeah. And while all this is going on, he was also in court testifying against Parnell to try and get him in prison. And I didn't look fully into their court case or why this happened.

But Parnell didn't get found guilty of sexual assault. He only got sentenced for abducting him. And he only got seven years in prison. That's it. That's it for abducting this little boy for seven years and abusing him the whole time and attempting to abduct another little or not attempting because he did abduct Timothy White. So he only gets seven years in prison. While he's in prison, he dies. So he died in 2008. Well, sayonara. Yeah. Not upset about that. Nope.

Steven goes on, lives his life. The movie that they came out about him, he actually plays a role in it as the officer rescuing himself. So he can actually be seen in the movie. He... has a couple troubled years where he spends all the money that he made off of that movie on drugs and alcohol and kind of goes into a downward spiral. But later he marries, he has a couple of children.

He gets his life on track and back together and he is living a good life. His wife remembers him as being a really kind person throughout this whole thing. And unfortunately, one day... riding his motorcycle, he ended up getting in an accident and he died. Not too long after that, that Stephen died, Carrie's uncle was actually murdered in his home that he lived in with Carrie. He was shot and killed.

And I didn't look super into his murder, but Carrie was really close with him. So this was really hard for him. He lost his brother and his uncle. within a very short period of time. And Kerry ended up having a mental breakdown. And part of it, he became pretty violent. He started telling one of his friends that he wanted to go to his work and kill all of his coworkers.

and burned down the whole building. Okay. Very dramatic. Very concerning. Yeah, very concerning. And at this point, his friend was like, you need help. You need to go to a mental facility. to get treatment so he does he goes there and the mental professionals there found that he was suffering from a few mental health disorders and they wanted to treat him and

Carrie also at that time told the doctors there that he was having a lot of nightmares where there were floating heads around him that would chase him. And he was having this nightmare constantly and constantly. So he was almost fantasizing about these heads all the time. And then he also started fantasizing about killing women at this point, but he didn't tell people in the facility that either. So he sought treatment there.

But he wasn't there very long and he left. He kind of decided that he would maybe self-medicate, handle things on his own. So he started going to Yosemite for an escape, which was... Somewhere he grew up around, he knew the area really well. He had been there many, many times. And he would actually go to Yosemite. He would find swimming holes and he would go there and he would swim naked and he would smoke weed. Sometimes he would go with friends.

But he spent a lot of time in Yosemite. He wasn't only there to escape his demons that he obviously had going on in his head. He also went there for another big reason. Kerry was a very, he was an advocate for Bigfoot. He actually. Stop it. When I saw this. Hold on. Let's just make, I know no one can see this but you, but take a look at these songs.

You have Bigfoot socks on. Yes. Okay. Actually, they have, if you take a closer look, they have Bigfoot, a UFO abducting a cow, Mothman, and the Loch Ness Monster. Of course you have those socks. Oh my god, that's so weird. Okay, so I don't want to, like, I'm very interested now. Not that I wasn't interested before, but... But now it's a whole new level. But here we go, okay.

But here we go. So he was a huge believer in Bigfoot. And he was a huge believer because when he was younger, he was camping in Yosemite in the forest area of the park. It's called forest. And he claims to have seen Bigfoot while they were camping. He says that Bigfoot ran in front of him, made a loud scream, and then ran off and disappeared into the woods.

So from that experience on, he became obsessed with Bigfoot. He actually was so obsessed to the point where he held Bigfoot in a religious way. He held him as high as God. He thought that... He worshipped Bigfoot and he thought that Bigfoot was tied to the meaning of life. And he actually, if you remember earlier, I said he liked to draw. He actually would draw Bigfoot all the time.

And he spends a lot of time in Yosemite. So he ends up getting a job as a maintenance man right outside of Yosemite National Park at the Cedar Lodge. It's really close. It's about seven miles from the entrance of Yosemite National Park. And this was a great job for him. because he lived there at the lodge and he worked there. So he was so close to Yosemite. He could go whenever he wanted. Which I'm sure is part of the reason why he wanted a job there.

Exactly. It was to be so close to everyone, to the park. A lot of people in the lodge thought he was great and they liked him. He had friends. There were no issues, but there was one woman. who worked at the lodge with him who did not think he was great. She actually thought he was very creepy. She noticed him staring at her daughter when she would go swimming.

for long periods of time and it creeped her out a lot to the point where she actually approached him and threatened him and told him pretty much stay away from my daughter like i'll kill you it's pretty much what she said to him like she was very turned off him looking back at it she was the only person who did because other people in that time never said anything bad about him she was the only one who saw the darkness that he really

had and was and the evil person that he was. So during this time, Carrie was dating a waitress who worked at the Cedar Lodge, and she had two daughters who Carrie was really close with. In interviews now, his daughters will say, I loved him. We were really close. He taught me a lot of things. He taught them how to swim. He spent a lot of time with them.

They described him as being a really handsome and warm man. They thought of him as a teddy bear. And at the time, they thought he was a very positive part of their lives. They really enjoyed having him around. And there were a lot of times where Carrie was alone with... his girlfriend's daughters and he was almost this father figure to them that reminds me of the um one of the documentaries about ted bundy that just came out and by just i mean like within the last year or two

I believe it's on HBO. I think I saw it. Yeah, and the daughter of Ted Bundy's girlfriend or wife. Yeah. The whole documentary is... basically from her point of view. And she says the same thing. I mean, he was a completely different person with, in regards to their relationship. Yeah. And she had no idea. Yeah. So kind of similar. It gets a lot different than that relationship. And I'll go into that further later. But yeah, they thought very highly of Carrie at the time. And then February 1999.

which is also why I chose this story was because happy Valentine's day to all of our listeners. I hope you're enjoying listening about murder. On the day of love. On the day of love, what's a better way to celebrate love than murder? Honestly, that took a completely off topic. One of my favorite shows when I was younger was Snapped, which was just a...

show about couples. Have you seen it? An oxygen classic. Oxygen classic of just couples that something happened and they just snapped and murdered. And it was all about women, right? Yeah, I think... No, not all the time. Sometimes men got killed because there were some... No, I'm saying, like, women were the murderer. No, it was both ways. Really? But women were the...

murderers a lot because a lot of them were killing their husbands for their money. Right. Yeah. I do recall that. Yeah. Coming home out of school and snugging up on the couch. After like fifth grade. Watching like all my favorite show is on right now. Anyway. Not to make light of the story because we are about to get into some really horrible stuff. February of 1999 with a group of three women, Carol's son, her daughter, Julie, and her daughter's friend, Sylvina.

Palosa came to visit Yosemite and they stayed at the Cedar Lodge. They were in the area to visit the park. Salvino was from Argentina and she had never seen this area before. So they wanted to bring her to. one of the most beautiful places in the US. So they spent the day exploring the park and all the famous areas that drew in crowds of people. They were taking photos together. They just had a really lovely day inside the park.

And that night they got dinner and then they decided that they would rent a movie. So they rented a movie from the hotel and then they went back to their hotel room. It was shoulder season. So they're there in February. That time of year in Yosemite, the weather is extreme. A lot of roads that aren't even open, so a lot of things are shut down. So the hotel was pretty empty. They were one of the only people there.

And the room that they got was in the far end of the hotel in not a very well-lit area. So they were pretty far from the office and from any other people. Remember? Carrie lives and works at this hotel. So at this point, Carrie had been fantasizing about killing women for years and he came across these women. He saw them.

He walked by their window and he saw them and he saw this as an opportunity. So he knocked on their door and the mother, Carol's son answered. And remember, he's a maintenance man there. So he works at the hotel. And he told Carol that he needed to come into the bathroom in their place because there was a leak upstairs and he needed to figure out where it was going to.

and where it was coming from. And Carol initially was like, no, this isn't appropriate. The girls were in their PJs. They had just gotten out of the shower. It's not appropriate for you to come in. She says, no, absolutely not. Carrie is calm during this. But he's persistent. He tells him, you're probably going to have to switch rooms if the leak persists. I just want to come in and see if I can fix it. So she very reluctantly lets him come in the hotel room and he goes into the bathroom.

pretends to look around i think he looked like in the fan area of the ceiling pretending to look around and then he comes out with a gun pointed at the three girls He tells them that he wants their wallet and money and to give them the keys to the car. Then he ties up Carol with duct tape and puts her on the bed. And he takes Carol's daughter, Julie, and her friend, Sylvina, and puts them in the bathroom.

So he ties Carol up with duct tape and then he strangles her with a rope. Horrible. And her daughter's in the bathroom like feet away and her friend, I'm sure, hearing all of this. So just absolutely horrible. Horrific. And then he wraps her up in a sheet and puts her in the trunk of the car that she had rented. After that, he comes back in. He pulls the girls out of the bathroom and he sexually assaults both of them. He has a gun. Like, these girls are terrified.

Just killed this girl's mom. They're absolutely terrified. Sylvina was resisting and she was hysterical. She was fighting back and just absolutely a mess and terrified. So he took her into the bathroom and strangled her as well and then put her.

in the trunk of the car and at this point he returns for julie and they're all they were bound with duct tape all of them and he comes back for julie and he tells her that they needed to leave, and that if she willingly came with him, that he wouldn't hurt her. So he put her in the front seat of the car. Always a lie. Always a lie. Do you know how old the girls were? They were 16. Okay.

If she willingly comes, doesn't put up a fight, he's not going to hurt her. So she does. She doesn't put up a fight at all. She comes, she goes with him, sits in the front seat of the car, had her hands tied together and they drove off and in interviews. Carrie says that he didn't know what his plan was with her or where they were going or what he was planning to do with her. So they just drive off. So the last time Carrie was seen was 70 miles away when he went to a pay phone to call a cab.

And a woman came and picked him up to be his driver. So he told the taxi driver that he had gotten a ride with friends and then they left him there and he was stranded and he needed a ride back. to the Yosemite area. And during their drive, Carrie strikes up a conversation with her. They're just talking and he tells her all about Bigfoot and how he had seen him in the park, which was not unusual for Carrie. He told everyone about the story.

Again, he's obsessed with Bigfoot. So telling her all about this. And then he says, I want to show you where I saw Bigfoot. Like, can I show you? And she says, sure. She drove all that way. Might as well stop in the park and see. So he shows her the area where he had seen Bigfoot. And then she drops him off back at his house after.

And she goes home. Well, after Carol, Julie and Sylvina didn't come home, they were reported missing and people were really terrified. It was winter. They thought maybe their car went off the road. that they were stuck somewhere, that they had gone out hiking and gotten injured. They were really concerned about them. So they started searching the areas and it became the largest search that had ever been done in Yosemite. So they're searching off the side of the roads.

searching cliff sides. They had people out hiking, looking for these girls, wondering where they could have gone. Even Carol and Julie's family came and Silvina's family came all the way from Argentina. They flew out here, out there to try and find their daughter. which obviously if your daughter goes missing, you're going to do, but still like they're coming from a long way.

And the police actually went to the hotel and started interviewing people there because that's where they were staying. And they thought that maybe someone there would have some information. So they interviewed everyone who worked there, including Terry.

And Kerry actually was said to be really helpful and kind to the police. He talked to them for a really long time. He even took them around the hotel and let them into every single room that they wanted to go in because he was the maintenance person. He had keys. He actually showed them around, was super cooperative and helpful, and the police did not expect him at all. So then in March, so a month later, the police got a break in the case.

They found the missing rented vehicle completely torched off the side of the road about 70 miles from the Cedar Lodge. So the car was burned so bad. This car was a bright red color. It was... It was burned so bad that there was no paint on the car left. And then they found two bodies inside the trunk that were so burned that they were almost impossible to identify. There was nothing left to them except for bones. And no one...

reported that? Or was it just such a rural area? It was such a rural, remote area. It was actually a hiker that found the car. It's always hikers that find things. Always hikers. I never want to be one of those hikers that find anything. Personally, I'm too scared. Way too scared. Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. If you come across that in the middle of nowhere, you don't know if the person's still around.

how long ago it happened if you know what you're about to stumble on but yeah hikers are always the ones to find really important stuff and scary stuff Well, especially since we talk about stuff in national parks, everything's out in the middle of the woods. Right. But yeah, a hiker found this car, and so police came and investigated it, of course.

Everything inside the car was burned. There weren't even seats left in there. It was so burned. There was nothing left to this car. They're looking around the scene and they come across a camera, which ended up being really crucial. to identify them because the camera had all the pictures from that day of them out in the park so it had all the activities that they had been doing their whole day in yosemite and actually

When they were going through the camera, there was a picture on the camera of them in the hotel room that was later timestamped. They figured out it was timestamped 20 minutes before Carrie. came into their room. So their final moments. Their final moments. They realized it was Carol and Sylvina in the trunk. So now there was this huge question was where was Julie? Authorities immediately began searching everywhere.

They're thinking she might be alive still, that she might be being held captive somewhere. So they're searching. They have word out. They have her picture everywhere looking for this girl. And a few days later. They received this really horrifying letter in the mail. They open it, and it was a picture drawn of a map with an X on it. And above that X, it said, We had fun with this one. This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

JBL Tour Pro 3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean, if you want to get into some touchscreen technology, how about the smart charging case, clear sound? These are not standard things. You're only going to get them with the JBL Tour. Tor Pro 3, baby. And I love the sound of J.B. Yellman goes...

These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can't stand out by following others. Touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise canceling, and the one of a kind audio transmitter, which can plug.

and play with everything from game consoles to in-flight entertainment. The audio transmitter also allows for JBL Spatial 360 sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 360 immersive experience. What more could you want? First doesn't follow. Grab a pair at JBL. Oh, my gosh. No, no, no. When I read that, it gave me chills just hearing that. Well, to know that there are people that are so evil, and that goes without saying.

discuss people who commit horrible crimes but there's an added layer that comes with the territory of taunting and putting out these puzzles like the zodiac killer yeah people who send in ciphers and codes and demand to be on you know the front page of newspapers and he was having fun he was having fun with this this letter this letter was a fun little game for him and that's what he was showing when he wrote that too so he drew this sent it in the map

shows an area that is about 40 miles away from the car that was found. So they immediately head out to that area and they bring out a cadaver dog because from that note, they're pretty certain that she's probably not going to be alive. And within... seconds they find her body. But still, there's no evidence. There's no fingerprints. There's no witnesses. The other car, everything had been burned.

So there's literally no evidence for anything that had happened. So this was just a huge question mark of why this happened. Who did this? So five months pass and the FBI. ends up making an arrest of two brothers who were in the area who had criminal records. Their names were Michael Larwick and Eugene Rufus, and they were known methamphetamine users, and they both had violent criminal records.

They also thought that they were the ones who did it because they decided that whoever committed these crimes were familiar with the area based on where the car was hidden. It had to have been someone who was local and familiar with the area. So they questioned them extensively. And whatever happened in that interview room, the FBI decided that these were the murderers. They actually came out publicly and announced that they found them. on the murderers and that they were in custody

So at this point, for the past few months, Yosemite was kind of a ghost town. People were terrified to go there after this murder happened. People didn't want to be there. People weren't staying at the hotels. People weren't going to the restaurants. People weren't coming into the parks because they were afraid.

They were terrified. After they were announced that the murderers were in custody, tourists started coming back to Yosemite. They felt safe. They're like, okay, green light, we can do it. It's safe now. The person responsible or people responsible or locked away and kind of just a false sense of security. Yeah, the community thought they were safe. They thought that it was okay now. They thought that...

Yosemite was safe again. But while this was happening, Carrie was still working and living at Cedar Lodge. Which is kind of just a sneaky snake. Sneaky snake. Just right under their noses. And you know he's seeing all these reports and people getting arrested. And I'm sure he was just sitting back being like, perfect. So at this time.

A woman by the name of Joey Ruth Armstrong, who is 26 years old, was working and living in the forest area of the park. And that is where Carrie had claimed to have seen Bigfoot. And he visits that area often. because he was hoping to see Bigfoot again. So he would go back to that area quite often. And she lived there, and she lived in what is known as the Green Cabin. She was a naturalist in the park, and her job was actually to teach children.

who came there about the wildlife and the nature of the park. Wow, dream job. Yeah, such a cool job. Literally a dream job. And she was described as being a very kind and loving person. She had a passion for the outdoors and she loved Yosemite. Friends had... actually even asked her if she was worried about living in the park with the recent murders. And she had told them that she wasn't. The murderers were in custody.

she was safe now she wasn't worried and she had been following this investigation pretty thoroughly she had been living in the park while this stuff was going on and she even wrote in her journal the day that it was announced that the murderers were caught

She wrote, the monsters are gone. So she really believed that she was safe and that nothing was going to happen to her. So in July 1999, Carrie Stainer... went to foresta in the area where joey was living and he visited there regularly just hoping he would see bigfoot for carrie this was just a regular day visiting one of his favorite areas in the park he had no bad intentions the day he went out he parked nearby the green cabin where he saw joey and she was a beautiful young girl she

walked out of the cabin and she actually had a trip planned with her friends so she was walking in and out of the house packing up her truck getting ready to go just picking things up and going back and forth and carrie watched her for a few minutes and Carrie always carried a backpack on him. And in this backpack, it was later referred to as his murder bag because he carried a gun, duct tape, rope, and a knife in this backpack. So...

You just said that he hadn't had anything specifically planned for that trip, but clearly he's always prepared. He's always prepared for the possibility that it would happen, yeah. Which is psychotic. Psychotic, horrible, terrifying. People are just walking around with a murder kit in their bag. Nasty. So nasty.

And so he's carrying this and he approaches her and he walks up to her and starts saying, telling her the story of how he saw Bigfoot right in this area, right where she is. He's having a conversation. And while he's talking to her, he's actually looking around. to kind of like peek into the cabin see if it looks like she is with anyone if anyone's there with her and he sees that she's alone he takes this as an opportunity

And when she's kind of turned around grabbing some stuff, he pulls out his gun and he points it at her. She's terrified. Stainer later says in the interviews that she freaked out immediately. She was absolutely terrified. And he leads her to the back of the house and forces her inside a back door into a bedroom.

And he starts to bind her arms with duct tape that he had had in his backpack. And she fights him off with everything that she had. She was very physically fit. And she was a strong woman. And she was fighting him. Carrie was... barely able to get her bound and tied because she was fighting so hard but he did yeah good for her but he did end up doing it unfortunately and he takes her and puts her

in the backseat of his car and takes off. When Joey didn't show up to her friends to leave for the trip, they were immediately super worried and they called Yosemite and reported her missing. Right away, the police arrived to the cabin and they immediately noticed that there were signs of a struggle. There were broken glasses on the ground. The room had stuff kind of disheveled in it. And they also noted that they found him.

red mechanics rag that was sitting on the floor so the police start searching the area and this part is really horrific and sad just for a warning for people listening right now one of the People on the scene searching the area. He's walking around and he notices something bobbing in the water. No. No. Yeah. Is it the top part of your body?

So he notices something bobbing in the water and he thinks it's just an object, but he decides to walk over to see what it is because it's weird. It's catching his eye. So he walks over and he sees. that it is Joey's head that is bobbing up and down in the water. I had a feeling because you kind of foreshadowed that earlier when you were talking about his recurring nightmare. Head dream.

Yeah. But the whole scene was just absolutely horrific. They're walking around and unlike the first murder that Carrie had committed, there was a lot of evidence around this scene. There was just a lot of stuff that they couldn't connect. right away, but later would become a lot of evidence around the scene. This murder of Joey where it gets through the park and it creates an absolute panic.

among everyone there. People are terrified. People are leaving the park. This is the second high profile murder that happened in that area in that year. Well, I'm sure the police are like, oh, shit. Yeah, you have two people behind bars or being held in custody or I don't know where they convicted at that point. They weren't convicted because this had only been a few months later. And the murderers of that crime were.

supposedly in jail and were caught so but people started to question if this murder was linked to the first one because two murders in the same area so close to each other they started to question and the fbi adamantly told the public that There was no connection at all. These were two totally separate murders. So while they're investigating, they come across a witness who saw a car driving along the scene.

road that joey lived on and carrie stainer drove a blue and white international scout which i just saying that i wouldn't have any idea what that looked like but for people listening, if you don't know what that is, it looks like a old school Bronco and it was like this light blue color. So it stood out a lot. It was other people didn't have this car. It stood out a lot. Harry Saner was the only one in the area that drove this car. Interesting.

so carrie saner he drives a very unique car and this witness saw the same car driving on the same road that joey lived at the same time of her murder also at the scene of her murder there were very distinct tire that matched the same vehicle that Kerry drove. So right away, police knew of this vehicle, knew he owned it, and decided that he needed to be interviewed based on this. Okay.

So they go to Cedar Lodge looking for him. He's not there, but he gets word that they are looking for him and immediately realizes he needs to leave. So he drives a few hours north and he actually drives to this nudist. colony known as Laguna del Sol and this is a few hours north of Yosemite. He sets up camp there and they have a bar and he goes into the bar, grabs a drink and he strikes up a conversation with a woman there.

And as he's talking, he just tells her that things aren't going too well for him. He's decided to pack up his things and come to this nudist colony and hang out and just a normal conversation. Nothing out of the normal for this woman.

who he's talking to so shortly after that she goes back to her room where she's staying and she sees his face on the tv and police had issued a statewide manhunt so the woman recognizes him and immediately calls the fbi and lets them know that she knows where carrie is the fbi and fbi agent arrives and he speaks with the manager who then tells them that he's sitting inside at the restaurant and that he will notice him because he's the only person there who's wearing clothes.

There you go. Red flag. Number one. Yeah. Red flag. So they walk in and Carrie notices them right away and he immediately puts his hands up. He's quiet. He's calm. he's very cooperative with the police and he goes with them the weird thing about this when this fbi agent comes is he for whatever reason was not told why he was picking up Carrie. He was not told that he was this huge suspect in this gruesome murder that just happened. So he just goes there knowing that he is there to pick up

a guy and bring him back to the station with no other knowledge. And I'm not sure why this communication was never related to him, but it was not. He picks up Carrie, has him sit in the front seat with him. Oh my goodness. Okay. yeah yeah whatever the lack of communication there was whether it was on purpose or just it just seems like it would be the number one thing, most important piece of information that you're giving somebody like, hey, just a heads up, you're not picking up someone that...

is wanted for petty theft, you're picking up a mass murderer. And you should probably be warned of that. Who just decapitated a woman, potentially. Right. Yeah, so he has no idea. So they're just...

on the car ride back to the station and the FBI agent just strikes up a conversation with him and he says to him he's like I noticed your last name is Stainer are you related to Steven Stainer and have you seen the movie on him? So Carrie immediately responds and says, yeah, that's my brother.

I know him. I know what happened. The FBI agent starts talking about how horrible and horrific that was for him and for his family and how that must have been really hard for Carrie to go through that. And that must have been a really hard time in his life. so they kind of start bonding over this whole thing the fbi agents being really nice he is just really sympathizing with carrie so they start to bond and the fbi

Agent actually talks to him about how Parnell, the person who abducted him, only got seven years in prison. And it was at that point that Carrie asked the agent if he thought that that was justice. And he replied, absolutely not. They really kind of had this bonding conversation in the car ride there. And again, he has no idea that this man is this horrible, evil person who just committed this.

gruesome murder and among other murders too right after this conversation they get into another conversation where the agent asks carrie if he's ever seen this movie called billy jack

tells him that he looks just like the main character. And I actually looked at the movie and the picture and they do look a lot alike. The main character and Carrie look... very alike and i'm guessing that carrie got that often because he insisted he had never seen the movie before and didn't know what he was talking about he didn't know what the guy looked like was just kind of saying he didn't know. But as they walked into the station together, Carrie looks at the agent and he...

recites one of the main lines in the movie that the character that looks like him says, and they both kind of look at each other and start laughing like a little joke. It's a joke, like we're friends now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just like a little joke. So they walk into this interrogation room. The FBI agent, he still doesn't really know what's going on. There's two of them there now.

And they think that he might just be a witness to something. They're waiting to hear more on who this person is. So while they're waiting, they order pizza and they sit down and they're all just sitting there eating pizza and hanging out. And the FBI agents aren't even sure where to begin. this interview because they have no idea why Carrie's there. I don't know.

how that information was not conveyed, especially because he's clearly dangerous and he was just sitting in the passenger seat with one of your agents, just like shooting the shit. And that could have been really potentially dangerous. And way to boost his ego too. Like he needed that. Yeah. Yeah.

just giving a comforting conversation and like shooting the shit and joking around and giving him pizza which is not something that you do in interrogations you don't make them comfortable and sit them down with a big slice of pizza and ask them if they want a beer well if i mean obviously if you're playing good cop bad cop tactic maybe and you're fluffing them up but that's a tactic when they know

What's going on. What's going on. Get crucial information from this person by pretending to be their friend versus genuinely forming a connection with somebody. that they don't know any information about yet. Yeah. So they're sitting down, they're eating this pizza and just kind of hanging out. And then this whole interview takes a huge turn and comes completely out of left field for these agents and they are taken back.

by the next thing Carrie says. So Carrie looks up at them and he looks at them and says, this will be my last meal as a free man. I can give you closure. These FBI agents are super confused by that. So they ask him to elaborate on what he's talking about. And this is where the FBI agents realize what a disgusting.

horrific evil person that they were dealing with. This was a huge turning point in the interview because he looks at them and he says to them, I will tell you everything, but I have a condition. And that is that I want you to bring me a bunch of child pornography. No. The answer is no. Exactly. The answer is no. But...

In investigations, they don't say that because they're trying to get information out of you at this point. So they say, you know, that's hard to get. We're going to need a little bit of time. Let's talk while we're trying to figure that out for you. So they're trying to play it cool at this point. And they just went from eating pizza to talking about child pornography and getting requests for child pornography. So this is...

Completely flipped. This is taking a turn. Taking a huge turn. So they're completely shocked. He starts to confess. to the murder of joey he just comes out and tells them everything he is talking to the same fbi agent that he had bonded in the car ride with and he's telling him what happened and this fbi agent is just responding in a great way because he is not acting as horrified and judgmental as he feels. He is

acting open and considerate to everything he's saying. He's just saying, I understand. Tell me more. And this really seems to get Carrie to continue to talk and confess. by him to keep the consistency of that quote unquote relationship or whatever it was that they had from the beginning because i'm sure like you said if he all of a sudden starkly changed his attitude towards him. I'm sure Carrie would have shelled up a little bit.

yeah or if he acted disgusted right it would have been different so he starts telling him exactly how he murdered joey and exactly what happened and he talks about what happens after he got Joey into the car. So after he got her into the car and started driving down the road, Joey continued to put a huge fight. She was bound in the back. Her arms were bound in the back seat and she was thrashing herself.

around the whole backseat trying to escape, completely freaking out. She is thrashing so hard, she actually manages to launch herself out of the window of his car. Yeah, a moving vehicle launches herself out of this car. This girl is fighting for her life. She gets herself up and she starts running. She just starts running as fast as she can into the woods. And Carrie stops. He pulls over the car, super calm.

Just walks out, grabs his kill bag, and then starts chasing her. She's going for, I mean, she's running for her life. And she's duct taped. Her arms are duct taped. So she's just running. It takes a little bit, but Carrie catches up to her and he kills her. And we know what happens after that because when they found the body... In the interview, he says that the reason he decided that he had to kill her was because she was in the area that he had seen Bigfoot and he saw it as a sign to summon.

bigfoot to re-emerge where he could finally meet bigfoot all right so that was just giving Bigfoot, a bad name here. Putting a bad light onto the situation. Obviously, he's crazy as hell, but... Absolutely. Don't bring... Don't bring him into this, you know? Don't bring him. You're, like, personally upset about the Bigfoot infatuation. Like, I'm infatuated, and you're putting a bad name to all of us infatuated Bigfoot.

but fans like what the hell do you mean yeah you're you need to did he come to him in dreams and say that you need to like you sacrifice somebody and yeah that's yeah He obviously had a lot of mental issues. And so he had told investigators that and investigators actually later told Joey's mom that. She was a really brave and strong person and that if she hadn't been fighting so hard for her life, there wouldn't have been the evidence that there was that was...

able to convict Carrie in her murder. So because she fought so hard, there was a lot of evidence left behind. And then so he tells all the facts.

to these fbi agents he tells the agents that he has more to tell and he has things that they want to know but he's not going to tell them until he gets the child pornography that he requested so again just this disgusting, horrible human being saying that. And the agent looks at him and says, you know, you seem like... You are doing much better now that you got that weight lifted off your chest of what you did to Joey. It's time for you to just tell us everything. I can tell that you need

to get this weight off of your shoulders. You need to just tell us. And however he said it, whatever bond they had made previously, it gets to Carrie. And he agrees. And that is when he confesses to the murders of Carol.

julie and sylvina and he goes into the very detailed accounts of their murders he also tells detectives that the reason he didn't kill julie right away was because she was very cooperative he took time to decide what he wanted to do with her and it he did end up killing her but it took him longer because she was very cooperative yeah but deep down he knew he knew

I mean, what are you going to do? Just let her go. She knows way too much. She's seen your face. She knows who you are. You just killed her friend and her mother. You're not just going to be like, okay, good luck. Yeah. You can go. So, yeah, I agree. I'm pretty skeptical that that was the only reason that he would have let her go.

So he's just telling this agent everything. And he actually comes forward and starts talking about things that aren't even questions for FBI agents. He is just letting them know everything. And he decides to divulge this other. horrible and horrific fact to his killings. Those original three murders of the

people in the hotel room at Cedar Lodge was not his first choice in victims. He had already planned out to kill and rape his girlfriend and her two daughters. He was actually with them at their house, spending time eating dinner with them. with full intentions of murdering and raping all of them. What? When, yeah. Okay, how long have, not that it matters, but how long had they been together?

Do you know? So he had been working at the lodge for two years, and that is how long I believe they were together. He was very close. The kids adored him. They loved him. They thought he was the best thing. What a sicko. Okay, continue. And they just had no idea what was actually going on in his head. So he was at their house with them with full intentions to murder all of them.

And that is when a friend stopped by the house and completely ruined his plans. His plans were ruined. He was really upset. And at the end of the night, he decided to go back to the Cedar Lodge because that's where he lived. And he was just really amped up at that point. He had this all planned out. He had his adrenaline pumping. And then at the very last minute, this person shows up and just ruins his plans. So he decides that he wants to go into the hot tub, try and relax.

cool down from this whole thing that had just happened from the night so he gets to the hot tub and it's dirty It's gross. He's upset. He's instantly annoyed and decides he's not going to go in. And that's when he decides he's going to walk around Cedar Lodge and scour the area for guests that are there. That is when he walks by the windows.

of carol julie and salvina and sees them inside and decides and decides what he's gonna do all the factors leading up to that moment i mean it was going to be somebody Obviously, from what you just said, it was either going to be his girlfriend and the two daughters or this woman and those two girls. So either way, lives were going to be lost.

But the circumstances of how these things happen, like he just came across their window. And with Joey, she just happened to walk outside when he got to that area that he always was in. Like if she had left for her trip 30 minutes earlier or if she had decided to pack later and was just sitting inside the cabin. Right. Like there are just such specific things that led up to these.

moments horrible things yeah these horrible moments with his confession and then all the forensic evidence that was left after joey's murder he was found guilty he was sentenced to death so he is actually still on death row he is now 58 years old he's just been serving his time waiting on death row whether or not he will actually be sentenced to death who knows with how death row works what year was his conviction because like 1999 okay because like you said

he willingly gave all this information, was very transparent with everything that happened and confessed. I'm guessing the trial wasn't very long, but so it's been 20...

something years that he's been sitting in death row yeah i feel like every time you hear someone on death row they either wait a really long time before they're actually sentenced to death or they die waiting right of course overall this Whole thing is a horrible, horrible story. A different note of Yosemite and something nice that they have done in regards to Joey's murder is that every summer they have an event there. It's called the Armstrong Scholars. It is a group of girls.

age 15 to 18 that will come to the park every summer and spend a week outside learning about the nature and the wildlife there and camping there and it is in memory of joey and an educational thing that joey would have appreciated. So they do that in her memory, which I thought was really nice. That's beautiful. Yeah. That was her passion in life and what she dedicated her professional life to was educating.

That is my whole story of the Yosemite serial killer and the events that happened there. There are a lot of news coverage on it. ABC does a whole news story on it with interviews of people from there. look it up there's also steven stainer's movie that is out as well that you can watch and see his account of the story and of course it will go a lot more in depth of his story than i did for the purpose of this podcast

But there are a lot of references out there if anyone listening wanted to know more about this case. I'm sure that I'm actually looking across the room, the book collection I have, and I have Death in Yosemite book that I'm sure I have an idea.

that's in there it's got to be at least a couple chapters worth of that book yeah it has to be unless it was written before it happened but i don't think i don't think so i'd be interesting to interested to see if it was in there that was really interesting and i for having it be such a huge story

I've never heard of it. I actually hadn't heard about it either. I actually saw an article shared on a Facebook group page about it. And I was like, I want to know more about this story. And that was when I found all of these stories with his brother and him. And a huge aspect that they really focused on was the difference of Carrie Stainer and Stephen Stainer, how they ended up, one was a hero and one was this huge monster. So that was a story that they really went with a lot about.

So that kind of intrigued me a little bit too, because I thought more on the whole nature versus nurture argument. Are you born a killer and a murderer and this horrible person, or is it based on your experiences? I can see that being a big, you know, when you're in school.

you have these situations that you know topics of discussion and debate for the nature versus nurture yeah argument that is like a prime example i'm sure that oh in my psychology classes it was a huge it was a huge topic of nature versus nurture but then again there was an interview with carrie that said he actually started fantasizing about killing women as early as seven years old so again

Nothing had really happened to him at that point. So maybe it is. Maybe you are born that way. I really I don't know. It's a hard topic. Yeah, it's the question that will keep people guessing for a really long time. Because if we did know the answers, we would know how to backtrack these stories, find the source of what went wrong, what happened. And we'll know in the future what to look out for. Yeah. To prevent this from happening. So, well, that was a heavy one for sure. Yeah. I guess.

That's it for this week. Now I'm going to go try and do something happy to get my mind out of that. Out of this horrible story. Well, next week, we are going to be recording. our first ever listener episode. Yeah. Because we do have quite a few stories that have been sent in. We are really excited to share them with everybody from now until Friday. Please, if you have a story, send it in.

because we will be recording the listener episode coming up on this friday and it doesn't have to be a story of someone trying to murder you or anything like that like if you have a really crazy encounter with a wild animal if we love paranormal stories if you have some experience with paranormal activity.

We would love to hear those. Or if you do have a really scary story on the trail with someone and you feel like sharing, absolutely share with us. You can send us an email from our Instagram. Our Instagram is nationalparkafterdark. there's a button on there where you can click email and it sends it to us directly.

Or you can go on our website, mpadpodcast.com and go to our submission link and you can email us straight from there as well. Yeah, so we're looking forward to hearing from you. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye, guys. Bye. That was a good one. You're still recording. Yeah, I am. Let's get out of here.

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