87 - Star Wars Livestream

is going to be an engaging time. You know, some people, a lot of people seem to be really excited about the series that we're doing. Some people have kin cynically said, you know, what value to Star Wars really have? Philosophically, It's obviously popular entertainment. You know, Lucas is not a Shakespeare But at the same time, you know, we have to recognize that anything that garners the level of a ten that the Star Wars franchise has, it gets that

attention for a reason. On some level. It speaks to human experience and reveals human desires. It works on our imagination in ways that are I don't know, real or authentic to what it means to be human. And so if we don't take some time to think about why certain stories are compelling, I think we're missing some important

avenues of wisdom. And so is Star Wars Shakespeare. Well no, but at the same time, it does engage with some significate topics, and I think that it would be a blinding effect of pride for us to overlook that simply because it's you know, fun and flashy and popular. The proverbs tell us that wisdom cries out in the marketplace, and well, the Star Wars are certainly in the marketplace. So I think this is going to be a profitable series for us. It's gonna be a fun series. I

look forward to the various directions that this goes. But oh, before we get started, I do want to let you know about something. You know, as I've been talking for a while, our Mythic Mind courses are starting up here. Hannah's Latin course and Josh's Paradise Lost course are already underway by the time that this is posted. But it's not too late to join, And if you're a Mythic

Mind patron, you can join at half price. And so go and do that if there's interest you Also, my course is beginning next week from the date that this

is being posted. So beginning the week of the eighteenth, my course called a Brief Survey of Ideas will be starting up, And if you want to join that course, you can just head over to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind and if you sign on as a Tier three annual patron you'll get access to that course as well as the next three that begin within this term.

And so that's brief history of Ideas. We're gonna have plato Stoicism until we have faces, we have the Elder Scrolls in philosophy, and then we have the Wisdom of Tolkien, this Summarillion, which will begin at the beginning of twenty twenty six. So over the next several months, we have a lot of things going on here, and I'm currently

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advantage of this. At that point, the annual discount's going to drop back down to probably about fifteen percent, and so just keep that in mind. I'll put a link to the Patreon in the show notes, and also if you want to watch this conversation that I'm going to be including here, then I'll include a link to the YouTube channel as well, and go ahead and subscribe to that channel as well to make sure that you don't

miss anything that's going on. All right, and now let's go ahead and jump into our May the fourth conversation on Star Wars. All right, there we go. So welcome to our maybe fourth v with you Mythic Mind Star

Wars chat. You know, I'm I'm Ajor Snyder. I'm Anyone who's watching this right now probably is familiar with who I am, But just to kind of frame a little bit of what's going on here, our Mythic Mind community, which is really an association, kind of network of Christians who are somehow involved in the humanities and understood very broadly. And you know, we've mostly been taking a literary focus.

You know that the formation of this fellowship was really inspired by you know, the Inklings and you know, my my appreciation for Tolkien that sort of thing. So we've done a lot of Talkien and kind of Inkling adjacent sort of material. You know, we just finish up a series on the Poetic Eda, and we've done some Beowolf and this sort of very literary kind of focus. But I thought it'd be fun to expand our scope a

little bit and start engaging in some other media. And you know, it's it's hard to get something less mainstream or than our more mainstream rather I mean than Star Wars, and so I thought this would be a good occasion to kick off our study of our analysis, our discussions of Star Wars with the live stream on May fourth. So this is just the general kind of conversation here.

I mean, obviously anybody participating in this conversation is somebody who appreciates Star Wars, although what that means well may have a broader or more narrow scope for each of us, and so definitely we'll have some different perspectives, different lenses to bring to the table here. Yes, Jordan says he feels attacked, we'll see what that means probably momentarily. But I think, you know, I don't really have a super

clear agenda for this conversation. I think that the best way to go about this it's just for each of us to just very briefly introduce yourself, but then really focus in on you know, what is your experience of Star Wars? What is your history of Star Wars? You know, are you somebody who you know who only affirms the original series, or you know, are you somebody who's you know, watched everything and read all the books and played all

the games, or somewhere in between. And so you know, for me, you know, I can't remember not being familiar with Star Wars. I think that that's you know, probably pretty common, especially you know, for for people who well were born after the original series came out. And so I don't know when I first saw the movies, you know, I very much. I can specifically recall the VHS box set that we had of the original series, and you know, I do remember seeing the original series with a re release.

I think it was probably leading up to the the prequel series that the episode one, and so I remember that re release. I I, you know, watch the prequels as they came out in the theaters, and you know, at the time, like I enjoyed them well enough, but I very much took on the sort of general group think that they were not particularly good films. But you know, over time, I've been inclined and you know, Jordan's gonna argue with me on this, but I've been inclined to

sort of reassess that a little bit. And you know, my most recent rewatch, I actually enjoyed them. You know, I don't think they hold up to the originals, but I think that there's something of value there. Now. I can't be quite so diplomatic when it comes to the sequel series, but maybe we'll get there a little bit, and so you know, I'm very familiar with the movies.

What really launched my recent reinvestment in Star Wars is you know, we talked about having a conversation on Knights of the Old Republic, which is I think one of the actually one of the best things to come out of Star Wars universe since the original series, and so in my revisiting of those games for that chat just sort of re spark my general interest. Since that's launched this just broad rewatch and engagement, and so that's that's

kind of where I am. I'm a big fan generally speaking, even if maybe if it's lost its way a little bit in recent years. But I'll have to just hear from some of you again. Just briefly introduce yourself and tell me something about your history with Star Wars. I'll go clockwise as I have you on my screen here, Jordan, why don't you kick us off?

all our Star Wars tapes were in those. For the kids VHS tapes for these big bulky things that you put into something called a VCR that also worked really good as a space doc. We had one of those ones that like lifted up and you put the tape in the top and pushed it down anyway. So as Andrew kind of eluded, I am a firm believer in the fact that there are only three Star Wars movies. I classify the Star Wars movies in this way. There

are the three Star Wars movies. There are the apocryphal Star Wars movies, which are the prequel trilogy because George Lucas is involved. And then there's the Suit of Pigrifull Star Wars Universe, which is episode seven, eight nine, and then was so and uh, I forget the other one. And then I will say that of the fan fiction movies, Rogue one is probably the best.

like popped out when you swun the I had. I had a double sided one of that that I think only lit up. I don't think it made sound. And my mom did like the full face paint thing that has been my Twitter picture sometimes. But anyway, so you know, I did see those movies growing up. I've actually seen all of the all of the Star Wars movies, and I think just over time, I just grew to not like them very much. I'm not gonna, you know, begrudge anybody for for liking something that I don't.

you know, had more to work with. But the dialogue just is awful. I think they they totally wighed probably the second best Star Wars bad guy in Darth Maul, and that just kills me. And I know supposedly he comes back in the cartoons or whatever, but they, I mean, they just they just off to the guy and that's I don't know.

originally came out in theaters, but I grew up. I think my first memory of like watching a movie was watching a New Hope with like my dad and my little brothers, and my dad kept pausing the movie to make sure we weren't too scared, and he told us what was going to happen, like he told us about like he's like this character is gonna die or like, don't worry, like this is what's gonna happen, and so I remember loving it and since then, Yeah, it's just

it's definitely been a big part of my life, just growing up, even just yeah, it's definitely been something that has really brought me a lot of joy. And I do not hold to just the original three. However, I do acknowledge there's a lot of cringey things to the prequels, but I grew up watching Star Wars, the Clone Wars as a kid, to the animated show, and that really

redeemed that time period for me. I think if there had just been the prequel movies, that would have been harder to to get behind that time period in Star Wars history. But the show does a lot to redeem the failings of the prequel trilogy, and so that was

definitely part of my experience. Then I grew up with then like Star Wars Rebels coming out, and then with Disney with the movies which I all went to see all of them, and then The Mandalorian obviously and some of the more recent adventures he has made into Star Wars. I would say there's been some good things, some bad things. I do actually really like Rogue One, but I haven't been a fan really of anything else Disney has done

movie wise. I think some of the animated The animated stuff is generally pretty good, but it's definitely been a big part of my life as a kid. I would just I have this Ultimate Star Wars Dictionary, and I would just flip through it so I could tell you, like really obscure character names and things still from that. But it's definitely been very enjoyable in a I sympathize with only acknowledging the original three. I think I'm biased

because I grew up with other stuff as well. I grew apocryphal apocryphal works.

is not at all undercutting Tolkien. Is Tolkien is far superior to anything Star Wars has to put out there, uh, make that clear. But at the same time, like it's I think it's far easier to have that kind of world in literature, that kind of gripping, deep world. It's something kind of unique about Star Wars that we get that in cinema or out of cinema, and so I think it just speaks to something about the power that lies underneath it. Or we'll come back to to some

of that. Justin tell us about your bench and Star Wars.

all in one day, I can't remember. Maybe it was over the course of a couple of days, but I just remember just sitting there and being like this, this is incredible. This is like the best movies I've ever seen. And then I remember I went to like basketball practice or something and told one of the guys on my team, you know, I thought I was kind of this nerdy thing a little bit, and he was like, oh, yeah, Star Wars. It's incredible. So I've been a fan ever

since then. I'll say that when the Disney bought it, I was so excited for the first one they were, uh make it was that what was the name of that one, I can't I can't remember right now, The

Force Awakens, Yeah, And I was so excited. I had my dog was named after a Star Wars character, Like, I was so excited, and I went to the theater and I watched it, and I don't know how long it took me, but it was not very long, like fifteen minutes maybe, and then half an hour and then an hour, and I was just I was so I was just like, this is I can't believe.

you should check out the Mandalorian. Like it's it's actually good, Like really, He's like, yeah, it floes a little bit more under the radar because it's a show and you know, they don't have to kind of do some of the other stuff that gets in there for these bigger releases, and it's like, it's actually good, you know, you know, oh man, I'm blanking what you know, hovercraft racing through the desert and whatnot. So I watched Mandalorian and that brought me kind of back into the fold with some

of the new stuff. I have very strong opinions about what is canon. My cannon is the original three. The prequels obviously not as good, but I count them the Mandalorian seasons one and two, but not beyond that. And if none of you have seen this, the Mandalorian seasons

one and two is good. And the reveal at the end of season two is just so phenomenal that I mean, I gotta give them credit for that, and then Knights of the Old Republic the first game is probably the best Star Wars story certainly, you know, since the the original three, and i'd even like entertained the argument that it's maybe a better story than it's so good. Yeah, it's amazing. So that's that's my that's my canon.

I've only seen the first two seasons so far. That's a bad habit of watching a show, even a show that I enjoy, and then I just stop get distracted by other things. So I haven't willfully not watched the third season. Just has it happened so far. I'll get there at some point. Yeah, So so far, not a lot of love for for Disney and listent's hear what you have to say, and then we'll circle back around some of these ideas.

is actually books, it's not movies. I love the movies. I share a lot of the criticisms of the prequels. I think they're extremely badly written. I think they're poorly acted and directed. I think they have very interesting concepts. That makes sense if you think of the characters as game pieces rather than people. It's a very neat way

of moving them around the board. But the motivations for Anakin slaughtering not one, but two groups of children in Cold Blood are not strong enough to justify what happens in the movies. But I think that what authors like Timothy Zon and Aaron Alston and Michael Stackbull and Kathy Tires and James Lucino were able to take the concepts and the characters in the world that George Lucas created. I think really is where the pinnacle of Star Wars

reached for me. I think that the ability to dig into concepts of the force and ethics and what it's like to be an x Wing pilots rather than just your Jedi, I are your top of the rug military leadership. But what it's like to be a normal person and face these hard moral choices in a desperate fight for freedom. That's what Star Wars really is for me.

and the weird and bizarre and music videos. There's just such a blend of political, philosophical, entertainment and historical pieces into a story which has arctical characters that you can

both understand and pour yourself into. So Luke Skywalker is both an archetype that you can see yourself in, as you know, you're someone from nowhere who gets plunged into something bigger than they are, but you can also see how he grows through trauma, the trauma of losing his hand and finding out the Darth Vader's his father, and really question whether he can join the light or the

dark side. In Return of the Jedi, I think that the best Star Wars stories like that to the old public, like the Throng trilogy, take these archetypical characters and also give them their own journeys that you can learn from. There's always going to be an element of the dacticism and a good Star Wars story.

say world understood in a broad sense. And you know, I've heard a number of people, a number of Christians honestly expressed some concern that, you know, this is all Eastern philosophy, that you know, there's something inherently antithetical to the Christian world view, to Christian thought in Star Wars. And I think that you can go that way if you if you follow certain elements of what's gone into

creating Star Wars. But I think also you can get a very Christian reading of Star Wars as well if you're if you follow those bot you know, personally, for me, I think that what provides the most comprehensive take on what where do Star Wars come from. I think that you need to go to Campbell, Joseph Campbell, who you know Lucas recognizes what played an important role in shaping his thought, you know, The Hero with a Thousand Faces,

which I haven't read yet, but it's coming tomorrow. So I've talked about that more another time, you know, and he was very influenced by Carl Jung, who focuses on these archetypes and these things that we know without knowing them. You know, this is where we really get this idea of, you know, you need to go rescue your father from the underworld. Like these ideas are a very archetypal, very Youngian, and very much that display in specifically the original series.

And I find that and that even that young uining approach ultimately, I think it's very Platonic, which Plato is very adaptable to Christianity. At least that's what the early Church certainly thought. And so you know, we follow that that path, directing Star Wars ultimately to Plato. As you know. That's but I find personally the most compelling. I find that actually to be very amicable to a Christian worldview.

And in fact, even this sort of maniche and light and dark I just recently discovered doesn't really come up in the original series. In fact, in the original movies, they don't really talk about the light side of the force. You have the force and you have the dark side. It's not necessarily light and dark. It's like the reality and then the shadow. That's very different than where things

developed later on in other media. And so, you know, when you really get down to the roots of it, I actually I think that that's very compelling as a Christian to do understand things that way. You have basically the real and the illusionary, the substance, the shadow, and so there's so much that goes into creating Star Wars that there are just a lot of different directions that we can go with this, some of which I think are can be more profitable than others. But that's to me,

that's what Star Wars is. Yeah, says very august in In, which is really what I mean when I talk about Christian Platonism, I'm talking about Augustinianism, and I definitely agree. And so you know that's why, as you know, as a Christian someone in philosophy and theology, I find Star

Wars to be very compelling at the root level. Now, I think that where things kind of went wrong is that when we get to the prequels, you know, still led by Lucas, there's still something of that there, but we're moving away from a sort of existential archetypal story to now we're getting more into the broad scale, the political, I would say, almost, which at that point we're sort of getting a little bit away from the individual human experience,

which I think is what made the original series so great, and so there's still something of value there, you know, setting aside, Yeah, some of the bad dialogue, although even that I've kind of been convinced to forgive some of that. You know, the worst dialogue in the prequels definitely comes from hating Christiansen, you know, his dialogue with Padme. It's

just it's the worst. At the same time, I've had people telling me that this is you know, this is actually part of the story in that you know, he's this kid who's been raised by these celibate monks, now thrown into this relationship. He doesn't really know how to talk to women, you know, he has all these emotions he doesn't know how to deal with. Maybe he is sort of maybe he should be this awkward figure who doesn't really know how to have conversations. I don't. I

don't know. But that aside, I think that we just start to go astray because we we lose that deep existential component we have in the original and by the time we get to the Disney movies, I don't think there's any rooted intentionality at all. It's just we're going to talk about some stuff that happened, check off some boxes to you know, to get at what marketing tells us people want. And now here's a mismash of story put together by different directors that don't agree with each

other as to what's happening. It's just it's an absolute mess. And so I think that really is my explanation of this, the long defeat that we see in the progression of Star Wars. I've minologued a little bit too long here, Jordan, to you, what is Star Wars? What's compelling to you about it? Even if it's just the original series.

he was going to come back the whole time. The salvation arc for Vader is really wonderful. It's almost it's almost like he's he's he's us sending as Luke de sends and then I don't know, they almost like pull each other up at the end. And I think that being a dad has has affected the way I see that. I don't know, being a dad just totally it messes you up in all the good in all the best ways possible. But I think that mostly for me, it

is the way that characters develop over the story. They're not they're not just one or two dimensional figures that are in this big budget at the time, you know, Light Show with with all these amazing effects for you know, nineteen seventy seven through nineteen eighty three. I mean, you just didn't see stuff like that back then. I mean it even it even affected the way Star Trek you know, made its way onto onto the big screen, and there's

you know, some interplay between the two series even. But I think it's just the way that the characters are told. I really you know, you mentioned that the interplay between the dark and the light. You know that that isn't

really that. I think you're right, and that the light side is not really mentioned in the original trilogy, But that almost feels like John to me a little bit in that Uh You've got uh, You've got this this this darkness that that just seems to be extending over everything, but it cannot comprehend the light.

I mean, you know, you have this great arc of Han and then you know, finally getting together with Lea, you've got the you know, the rogue kind of finally made an honest man, and now he's just like this deadbeat dad who has no relationship with his wife, and you know, he just gets killed and I mean a pretty pitiful way. I get that. Harrison Ford, you know, he originally wanted to die of Martyr in the original series,

and so he finally got his wish. But I just feel like if they were going to go that route, everything about him could have been more should have been more compelling by that point. And then I mean, Luke is just this again, this loser, exiled drinking weird milk from this weird space cow. It's it's they took these characters, have totally eradicated them. But yeah, I mean go to the original series and I think you do see some

phenomenal progressions. And I mean, I don't know the last time before just recently that I watched through the original movies. I do it every once in a while, but this may have been my first time since becoming a father. You know, my oldest are three and a half now, and it is it is a different experience dealing with that relationship between Luke and Invader and that reconciliation at the end. I mean, it's you know, know exactly what's going to happen, Like it's hard to not experience that

on a deep level seeing it again. And so yeah, there's just so much that's so compelling about that that again, just it's unfortunately lost in the later editions. Hannah to you, So you've you've seen the movies, you've read some of the books. I mean to you, what is Star Wars and what makes it compelling?

just it's really compelling. It really captured my imagination from an early age, and it captured my imagination in a way that I would say, how to generally a net positive effect, you know, obviously just the worlds and just the freedom that an entire galaxy offered and will keeping it very I would say for the most part, Star Wars is very much like kid friendly and not in a bad way and in a very good way.

if they want to. But I think there's something beautiful about that and something that really appeals to the mind of a child, in the imagination of a child, and I think that's why it's so compelling and multi generational that families can continue to watch it and the kids can see it in an early age and it just captures them, and then they want to show that to their kids, And I think that is really special about

Star Wars. And I would say, obviously there are some concerning things, especially with later things, not just the originals, but later things in terms of some of the philosophical origins and some of the ideas there. But I would say in general, the major things that I got away from as a kid was just good versus evil and just having heroes Star Wars characters that I looked up

to for various reasons. I mean, for example, like one of my favorite characters is Obi Wan, and like looking up to him his wisdom and courage as as a character. And I think that's something that's just very valuable with Star Wars and with any media. I think there's it's just so valuable to provide that source of imagination and joy. That's also you know, filling the imagination with things that are going to be true, good and beautiful. And so I think that's just what Star Wars is for me.

And I also kind of judge the Star Wars content I consume based off of that, is that what I'm getting away from this, is this something that's you know, filling my imagination in a positive way. If it's not that, I won't watch it or I'll stop watching it, but or reading it. But I found that a lot of Star Wars stuff, sometimes imperfectly, still accomplishes that goal.

evil like that that's kind of my barrier. Like if we have that, I can be happy with it, I can cheer it on, and we definitely see that in Star Wars, but things get really blurty with the Disney movies where they really are engaging in just deconstruction, which is I guess, the the hot word of the day. But aside from that, and I think they even there, you still have something of the division of good and evil which can be redemptive. And again that that intergenerational

component to it. I think that also speaks something to its power that you know, it can be enjoyed by a child who just thinks cool stuff is happening, or it can be enjoyed by somebody who is able to apply you know, a bit more of mental faculties to it. You know, sometimes when I talk about that about approaching Star Wars from a philosophical angle, you know, if people will push back and say, look, obviously, this is not Shakespeare's,

it's not Plato, you know, it's it's it's entertainment. But at the same time, like there are some significant ideas that are under the surface, and the reality is like everything is significant if you choose to recognize it as such, and you especially wouldn't get somebody something so phenomenally successful like the Star Wars franchise unless there was something there that actually spoke to the human experience, otherwise it wouldn't be so attractive. And so there's always something there and

compelling story. And I think that taking some time to think about what is it that attracts me to this thing, to the story, that can provide important avenue of understanding yourself as well as what it means to be human. In fact, you know, I used to I've done a number of things. One benefit of majoring in philosophy is you know, until you get the job you want, you

do a number of things along the way. And you know, for a time I was responsible for doing some hiring for for retail type stuff, and uh, you know, I had all the entry level kind of positions for a time, and you know, I was responsible for putting together with that those interviews looked like. And I found that consistently the most helpful question that would allow me to predict workplace success was tell me what your favorite book or

movie is and why. Now, this sounds like a kind of hokey interviewee type question, but is actually really significant. If they can tell me here's what I like, but also most importantly why I like it. That shows me you understand something about yourself and the way that you're engaging with the world around you. It's intentional. You have

that reflection. And so you know, if we can watch something like Star Wars, read something like Star Wars, play something like Star Wars, whatever that is, and you know, apply our minds to it, I actually think that there is a good bit we can get out of it, even if we're not necessarily engaging with you know, the the greats of classical philosophy, and so there's there's mind, there's entertainment that there's a lot of value to be had in that. I think there's are the that's the

formula for enchantment. You have mind and you have the entertainment. You have that which muses you. Justin to you, what is Star Wars and what makes it compelling to you?

or a futuristic setting. I mean, but I see the Jedi Knights in the same way that I would look up to you know, to to bail Wolf or to any you know, to any older night in armor, to find that sort of inspiration, to find the heroes too, to emulate you know, goodness, the clear lines between good and evil. I also really enjoy the the world building side of it, I don't know, in the same for some of the same reasons that I love the Lord of the Rings and the Narnia books.

I think that Andrew, in one of the previous lessons you might have talked about how when we read books, we we participate in that world building process, or even if we play an RPG, we participate in that in a way that maybe we don't when we watch movies as much. But but this universe of Star Wars is something that you know, we can still kind of bring away from the movie experience and and use our imaginations for and so I enjoy that part of it. I

like also the aesthetics of it. These are a couple set more secondary things for me, but like, I love some of the architecture, some of the you know, the clothes, or the you know, the scenery, the different kind of landscapes of different planets, or the buildings or the ships, and I think some of that's done so well that

it's just it's so cool. And one other thing that I really enjoy is that I do feel that on the realistic side of things, that the whole kind of Jedi ethos and process does get a little bit into say the desert fatherish area, where uh, I'm not so sure that all of it is just fantasy, you know.

And and I like thinking about some of our forefathers and ancestors that that might have lived in ways kind of maybe closer to some of the scenes that that we might see in in in you know, some of those movies, for example, you know, maybe a cave on

Tato wine. And I'm not I'm not sure that uh that some of those abilities aren't aren't possible, you know, And that that some of our Christian forebears may have had some of those not that that is or should be our goal, but I find it interesting to think

about it. So yeah, I think, like everyone, I have a lot of different aspects that make it up for me, and I agree with a lot of the points that that everyone has made, but I guess to just kind of distill it down to the simplest form for me, it's it's stories about nights, uh, having to decide to fight for what is right.

and of a lightsaber like that. There's just something I don't know, special about that, uh, in a way that you know, I can't go off on some philosophical analysis other than it's just it's cool and chanting. There's just something about the field that is certainly enrapturing, and I appreciated where you set Star Wars related to Lord of the Rings, related to Beowulf, even like fantasy but evilism,

that sort of thing. I've gotten into these debates before about what is the genre of Star Wars, and you know, on the surface level, it definitely looks like sci fi, but at the heart of it is fantasy. It just happens to be set in space and on different planets. But you know, like you mentioned, they don't really get into two like how do things work? Or why is it that you can breathe on any planet like that? These are just they're different worlds. They're not really different planets.

You know, It's like you're going into different portals in the wood between the worlds. It's I think that's a better way of framing it. It is fantasy and all that that entails regarding just not only the setting, but at the heart of it what it is, and so

I think there is that natural overlap there. Cool well, Ian, I already asked you what Star Wars is to you, So maybe we can go a little bit more negative here, where like you're obviously critical of the movie's probably even more so than I am of the ones that come after the originals, where do you think the movies kind of go wrong compared to your version of Star Wars with you know, the literature or whatever else.

typical nature of the characters he was playing with. You know, the orphan, traumatized boy who grows up wanting to become powerful and is corrupted by the evil you know, sorry, what was the impeach President Richard Nixon? Yeah, the Nixon figure. Like all the characters in the prequels are as I said, I really think they work more if you think of them as game pieces being moved around a board to

make a symbolic picture of evil overcoming good. And I think the problem with that is because you don't know exactly how to feel about characters like Anakin and for me personally obi Wan. I think there's a lot of potential in obi Wan, but he's so flawed. I actually think that Anakin is right to say that he's overly judgmental. He doesn't listen to Anakin. He's not a good mentor

he was thrust into that role too soon. And so I don't say that he's a bad person or a bad character, but he's not a good teacher in that way, especially for Anakin. But because there's all this ambiguity, and because their dialogue is not well crafted, so that it's kind of like a bunch of philosophical propositions plopped down into conversation, and you don't really know should I agree with this person because I like them, or because they

do good things or not. There's a lot of philosophical content in those movies, a lot of good and evil actions and good and evil thoughts. They're just kind of put there, and Lucas doesn't make it clear what actually

is true. So he talks about things like balance to the force, and there is an Augustinian way to think about balance of the force, that the force is balanced and the dark side is imbalance, but some other people take it to mean that the force is the light side and the dark side and they have to be in balance with each other, and that, of course would

be the more zen idea. Lucas doesn't clarify that he doesn't have a character really dive into that who we can trust, like we can trust Qui God, But he doesn't get into what balance of the force means. Similarly, Anakin, you know, he talks about things like I think there should be this dictatorship and Podme is like, no, there

shouldn't be. But then Podme falls in love with Anakin right after he slaughters a bunch of children, and so you don't you don't get a sense that either Podme or Anakin have a moral perspective, a moral grounding that you can latch onto, like you can ground yourself in Lea's perspective or or Luke's perspective, And you can't ground yourself in Han's perspective, because you know, he is that morally unstable guy who shoots a guy under the table.

Now I think that he justified in shooting that guind on the table, but it is a ruthless action. He doesn't have that same moral core that Luke and Lada do we don't have that moral core in Podmer, Anakin or even Obi Wan that we can say their perspective authorizes us to think this way about the force and about balance and about what the right path is. And I think that that failure in creating those more grounded characters that we can have a handle on is where

the Prequels go off the rail. And then, of course the Disney movies are just too They're too mimic, they copy too much, so they don't really have anything to say.

developed as mature emotional people. A lot of the people I talk to, and I'm not just talking about casual fans, I'm talking about people who spent a lot of time thinking about this, they don't they don't understand that this is actually supposed to be contradicted by Return of the Jedi. Darth Vader is redeemed by the love of his son, by the attachment of his son. But Lucas was not clear enough in how he portrayed the Jedi and their ethics and their actions in the prequels, and I think

that is failing. That is reflected in how there isn't a clear reading by the audience of the text.

to offer. And I think that based off you know what you just said about the redemption of Anakin at the end of Return of the Jedi, that shows us that, you know, it is the attachment that he has redeemed. And so the Jedi, they don't have the full say on what the right actions is the right course of life, that there's room for criticizing them in a way that doesn't actually deconstruct good and evil, but actually puts the

Jedi under judgment of what is truly good. I think that Qui Gon, his character, provides that there's that groundwork for doing that. I just agree with you that it's not really executed in a clear direction at all.

of Count Dooku. So this author, Claudia Gray, has him talking with another apprentice, and the apprentice says, do you even think about what balance of the force would mean? Qui Gon, It would mean darkness would be just as strong as the light. So it doesn't matter what we do, because in the end, hey, it's a tie. And then Qui Gon responds by saying, it matters. It matters which side we choose, even if there will be never be more light than darkness, even if there's no more joy

in the galaxy than there is pain. For every action we undertake, for every word we speak, for every life we touch, it matters. I don't turn towards the light because it means someday I will win some sort of cosmic gain. I turn toward it because it is the light. And I think that indicates that there's something self evident in the light that is true, beautiful and good, so that it's not about winning a game or balancing the

scales or fulfilling a prophecy. It's about there's something in us, as Romans one says, that recognizes the good, and we turn towards it if we're enabled to. And then the second is from John Jackson Miller's The Living Force, and at the very end of the book, Qui Gon says attachments are not the problem in different and says, save a friend, obi Wan, and the friend may save you.

And I really think that that's why I love the literature of Star Wars, because it's able to take a character like Qui Gon and flesh out that philosophical understanding that gives us that ground to stand on.

I know I'm not the person to catch this, but that Anakin, you know, a few times, will refer to Obi Wan as being like his father, and then obi Wan, you know, at that final fight at the end of Revenge of the Sith, you know, obi Wan said, as we were brothers, and so they have a very different understanding of what their relationship is. And so Obi Wan really because he was thrust into it, you know, he failed this master apprentice relationship really seeing them as equals,

you know. So it's the problem that parents have when they just want to be buddies with our kids, or like a teacher, when they just want to be accepted as cool to their students, that you lose something of your significance there and thereby something of your efficacy. And so it's just another element of I think something significant that you can find in the prequels, you know, if you're able to look past, you know, some of the

dialogues and the writing that sort of stuff. And I'm somebody who wants to enjoy things, and so I can I can do that because I just I want to enjoy things. There's something good there, I want to see it. And I think that's one of the one of the lessons you can see there one example of the fact that, you know, the prequels, they aren't empty of significance, even

if maybe they could be dressed up a little bit better. Well, I could go around the circle again, but I mean, does anyone else have anything that you you want to discuss anything else you want to bring up. Well, so Ian said Hahn was totally justified in shooting first or at the same time, Yeah, I mean, I mean to be sure, obviously he was under under threat there by this this uh, this scumbag. So that means fair enough. Yeah. In Han solo, I mean he is he he might

be my favorite character. And so it's one of the things I'll never forgive Disney for what they did to him. Now. You know, we we've all kind of hated on the Disney sequels. Is can anybody say anything positive about them?

think it's it's kind of cool. You know, you have the stormtrooper who converts to the good guys and maybe his some kind of forced sensitivity like that, that's interesting stuff they could have done with him. He really has this nightly kind of role to Ray. And what drives me crazy is Ray, who obviously is the protagonist of that series, the heroin that we're supposed to appreciate, maybe even look up to. She just dismisses him, like it's not even that she scorns his chivalrous kind of behavior

toward her. She puts it off as if it's like silly and juvenile. And that right there is Disney telling me that they're they're really trying to dismiss anything like traditionalism, right, anything like traditional relationships between men and women. And so they take what is I would say that the most wholesome character, and they just sideline him to the point where, you know, you go a movie or two later, and

he's almost entirely insignificant and forgettable. And so I feel like they laid some groundwork for some interesting things that they just cut the line on too early. I mean, and even you know, I can appreciate something about Kylo Wren in that he really doesn't have any motivation other than just rebelling against his parents. So he's just this petulant, complaining rebel for no reason who just totally consumed by

his emotion. And so I think that he does a good job of demonstrating just the well, the banal evil, right, the fact that it's so pitiful that there's really nothing commendable to be had there. It's all just emotional rebelling against the good for no reason at all. And you know, it makes me think of even Augustine to go back to Augustinianism in the City of God, when Augustine is talking about why we have the original sin? Why is there evil? And you know, he says, basically with Adam

and Eve, Okay, well you've got the Satanic influence. Okay, let's let's back it up. How do we get the fall of Satan? And at that point he says, we see evil's irrational, and so we shouldn't expect to be able to come up with a rational answer. And it kind of sounds like a cop out, but at the same time, it makes a lot of sense that evil is irrational because the good is the real and the real is rational, and so evil being a rebellion against the logoss a rebellion against reason. I think it's it.

I think it's good to have a character that is just irrational and emotional and flighty and doesn't really have any clear goals beyond just destroying stuff and mashching off his own ship when he gets temper tantrums like so there's something I can actually find appealing about that. But at the same time, and yeah, I think that out of Driver, I think he did I think he did

well the role that he was given. I think it was good casting, and so I can appreciate something about that, and so that that's probably the most positive things that I can say about the series. But beyond that, I mean, so much of it would just focus on deconstruction, and I'm definitely not on not on board with that, all right, I mean we could go ahead, yeah.

prequels and Rogue One, I'd probably pick Rogue One. It's controversial, I know, but it could also be that I was like growing up and I actually got to see Rogue one in theaters, which was very fun.

that reason. It just it doesn't really stick with me, and so I can appreciate that maybe on paper it's good, and I appreciate the heroic deaths and all that stuff. You know, it's very Northern Spirit kind of mentality, which I appreciate. At the same time, I just I don't know,

it felt kind of cold and forgettable to me. But you know, I recently posted that over on Twitter, and people assumed I was just engagement baiting because it's so crazy, but I don't know that that's kind of how I approached it, Whereas I also watched Solo, and I don't think that's a good movie. At the same time, I thought it was kind of fun. I mean, it didn't need to be made, and yeah, I mean you kind of have to approach it in isolation and that it's not Han Solo, but at the same time just sort

of a fun Star Wars heist movie. Like I don't know, I thought that was fun, not to say a good movie, but at least stood out to me a little bit more. But I know that's kind of heretical to say.

my opinions have changed at all. But it definitely I do think there's room for a variety of opinions, and different people might be able to appreciate and redeem different things about Disney Star Wars because I think whereas I'd say, obviously, like the goal would be to dows something that everyone can agree is good, I think people can kind of pick and choose certain things that they like about Disney Star Wars, and so there's a lot of diversity of

opinion over what's the best or worst Disney thing.

was a good a good movie. And I would say I do think some of the cutters are compelling. I would say difficult because they introduced a huge host of new characters and they don't really rely on a bunch of old characters that Ione's familiar with. And also that they just have like one movie versus like a trilogy to really flesh out the character. So I think they do a good job at the time they have And specifically, I mean I liked the character of characters of Gin

and of Cassian. I thought they were both both had some interesting things, especially I think like Cassie's character, I demonstrated by that they wanted to make create a whole show off that which I'm interested to see people you guys think about and word. But I do think that character is interesting of just kind of showing a different side to the rebellion with the kind of spy character.

There is kind of that Yeah, everyone dies in the end, which is not very Star Wars I suppose, But there's also that hopefulness because it really leads into you know, with the ending, you know what's going to happen. So I'd say it was a hopefulness but also kind of shows more like the sacrifice that people made. So I appreciate it for that. But I do understand what you're

saying about the characters. I just think, like, I don't know how much they could have done better with that given what they're trying to do.

beyond that movie. I mean, unless you've watched and Or, which I have not, but I've heard that and Or makes rogue one even better by just having that connection and that sort of broadening of the story. Yeah, but I just haven't seen yet, so that's that's that's fair.

of encouraging me, you got to watch it. He really appreciates the kind of, uh just less magical aspects of it, where it's like telling a story of just kind of some some regular folks that happened to work in the Evil Empire. And I think the storytelling is well done. There's no like real here for me in this story. But I think the storytelling is good enough and doesn't get into too much deconstruction, and there's some interesting writing.

Interesting parts of it, like the high tech jail Panopticon with like social credit score is a really interesting part of the story. So I haven't seen season two, but I did enjoy and or enough that I would I would, I would recommend it for viewing. I don't know if I count it as Star Wars or not, but anyway, that's my opinion on it so far.

doing this broad Star Wars thing. Seriities that are working on trying to engage in different media, and so I will give it a go, and you know, see what I think about it. If that redeemed some of my time spent with Rogue one. But yeah, I don't know. I like the wishing of Lightsabers, well anything else that anyone wants to talk about that we haven't brought up here, I mean the Acolyte.

my goodness. I don't recommend if you want to laugh, if you want like comedy, just like pops and popcorn and just watch like this, especially the scene like the Power of One. I'm sure you might have seen that scene. It's like all of which is are chanting and they're like the Power One, the power to the power of Me. It's really it's also very it's very woke. Yeah it's yeah.

at least a few episodes. I'm not going to commit to the whole show, but that definitely, for what I've seen, seems to be one of the worst things to come out of Star Wars ever, and I've seen the holiday special.

are obsessed with Star Wars. And I come over there and we like, we play lightsabers, and we like dress up like Star Wars characters and we'll watch Star Wars and they just want to talk about Star Wars and we'll look through their Star Wars library books and so I was like, where were you guys when I was a kid, But I was very excited. So it's fun.

It's just a family of all girls. But their dad loves Star Wars and he passed that on to them, so I will say, yeah, there's not as many, but it is still there's the next generation coming.

the focus that I definitely did enjoy that. It's very very much a space Western, which is probably what I find appealing about it. And I think that that is this wonderful that that's probably my number one pick for the Disney era. Perfect. Yeah, next time we'll off to wear our Mandalorian masks. Cool. Yeah, yeah, So anything else anyone wants to mention? If not, that's okay. You know, we're doing a whole series on Star Wars and anyone's

welcome to pop in wherever interest strikes you. But otherwise I guess.

like somewhere between eight and nine for me. I just I couldn't get behind that one.

off with eleven movies here. Yeah, all right, And to be clear, I'm not necessarily even going to go off of like whatever this means objectively best to worse and go off favorite to least favorite, and so for that, let's see, I'm going to go with Return of the Jedi, Fire Strikes Back, New Hope, Revenge of the Sith, Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, hmmm, Solo, Rogue One, Force Awakens, uh, the Rise of Skywalker, and then lastly Last Jedi, which

I just thought was terrible. All right, So there's my there's my list, Hannah. What do you have?

say it's decent, but the Ones. I don't want to insult anyone here, but I honestly just can't even understand why you all even bother watching them after the Force awakens, I you know, I cannot watch any of those other movies, but I might give Rogue on a chance at some point.

opportunity to just demonstrate how good the original is. And I think there's some benefit in that, or even if you could find some traces of value that, then you can root back into something substantial. I think there's a I don't know, evangelistic opportunity there. So that's that's how I approach Star Wars Again. I'm not going to see everything that spins out of Star Wars universe as too much, but at least as far as the main stuff, I'm sure I'm going to keep seeing every numbered movie that

comes out, no matter how terrible it gets. It's just is what it is. I know I'm funding bad actors here, right, whatever, I guess they got me. All right, Ian, give us your list.

a solo I definitely enjoy the most. After that, I think it's all just trash. So that's kind of where I end.

broader community that's interested in Star Wars. I know number of people wanted to be here but just couldn't. And so you know, feel free to jump in wherever can. Interest and schedule allows as we go forward with well throughout this grand galaxy, even if it's we're moving further and further towards the outer Rim as we go. All right, well, we'll go go ahead and wrap it there and I will cut off the Oh actually, before we cut off the video here, did anyone have anything to plug? I know, Ian,

you have something to plug here star Wars related. I want to give you that chance.

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