Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind or Pursue Wisdom in the Past between primary secondary worlds. I'm your host, Andrew Snyder, and I am always grateful for your company. First of all, as a reminder, this is available both as video through YouTube as well as through your favorite podcasting platform, and so regardless of how you're looking at this, know that
the other option is available. And so if you're listening to the podcast, then I will include the link to the YouTube video in the show notes, and so go and click on that, make sure you subscribe to the channel. And if you're watching this on YouTube, they know that the Mythic Mind podcast is also available on your preferred podcasting platform. Well, today we are continuing our conversations on the Poetic Eda, or the Elder Ed, as is sometimes called.
This is one of the oldest, one of the most significant collections of text for our understanding of the Northern mythos of Norse mythology, in particular Norse mythology, Norse legends, Norse epics, and so this is something that none of us who are involved, none of are are patrons myself are at all experts in this material. In fact, I believe that we're all reading this for the first time. Now, obviously we all have a general interest in this kind
of material. Most of us are pretty well acquainted with Tolkien, with Lewis, both of whom drew pretty heavily on the Northern Mythos as well as you know, a lot of us have some knowledge of broader mythology mythological themes, but none of us are experts on this material. None of us have ever studied or read this in particular before. And this is not an easy text just to pick up. At least a lot of these readings from the poetic are not easy you just to pick up. And that's
because I mean these are these are older sources. A lot of what we're dealing with has been redactive, it has been edited over time. Sometimes what we have is
not entirely coherent. We have some some competing traditions at play sometimes, and so it's just not easy always to piece together, as opposed to something like the pro Zata, which came a little bit later, which provides a lot of this material in more of a linear, more of a uniform, coherent manner, as well as a lot of the the other standalone texts that have come out things like the Volsung Saga, which also is very old, but it's more recent than the poetic at a narrative, and
so in fact, we're going to reference the Volsung Saga a few times. That's something I would definitely recommend that.
You pick up and read.
But when you just read the poetic Eda, even setting aside the fact that, okay, sometimes we seem to have some maybe incomplete or not fully edited text. As I was talking with Chase that reading the Poetica for the first time, it's a lot like reading the Silmarillion for the first time, where you have a broad host of characters, a lot of whom have very similar names, and so the first time through it can be kind of difficult to keep track of who's who, what's happening, what are
all the particular backstories. They kind of blend together the first time through, and it really takes a second full read to get down like what's happening. At least that was my experience with the Silmarillion, I think that's pretty common. Definitely getting the same vibe with the poetic Eda. I think that a second full read would help to solidify some of this in our minds. But I think that Chase and I were able to hobble together a productive conversation. I definitely appreciate.
His role in that.
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But now let's go ahead and get to my conversation with Chase regarding the next set of readings from the Poetic Edda. Right, and so welcome back as we continue our chats on the Poetic Edda today, I'm joined by Chase and it's just the two of us, and so I just say, and I hope he's ready to carry that load, because there's a lot going on here that you know, I just it's kind of like reading the silmar Allion for me, which I mean knowing talking that is kind of by design. It makes sense, there's a
connection there. You know, You've got so many different names that many of which sound very familiar, so many different things happening, interweaving plots, and you know, with the Silmarillion, it took me a couple of reads to really just get down like what's happening. And I feel like I need another full rate of the Edda to really nail this down. But I don't know what's been your just general experience so far trying to read the edit for the first time.
So what I read through the Prosta that one helped a lot because it just kind of like gave a basis for everything, and I started seeing how, you know, all of modern entertainment that's anything Norse related, really falls from that, even in the smallest ways. And it also kind of helps knowing what some of the characters in terms of like thor like how he typically acts or how Oden typically acts. Overall, I've I mean, I've liked it.
I think so I finished the prose Eta before this month one, but the previous ones I hadn't, and those were still kind of abusing to me. So I may need to reread those just to see awful.
Yeah, I think it's a good idea, you know, I'm just saying that I've started the prose Ata, definitely need to finish it. I think that would shed a lot of light here the Prozeta, which came a little bit after the poetic Ata, but it's arranged a much more linear kind of way, a lot more straightforward as far as opposed to the poetic Eda, where we're dealing with older source material. A lot of it isn't totally coherent as we have it because we've got fragments of different
poems that you know, they've changed. Sometimes there are gaps even our you know Larrington, who translated and gives some commentary in this edition. You know, she notes a number of times that sometimes what we have just is not fully coherent, and so it's difficult to work it out
with that alone. Now, for some of the ones that we're going to get into today, we're starting to approach the Volse Songs, and so definitely recommend anyone who listening to this to read that the Saga of the Volse Songs, which Chasa you've read that right, yep, yeah, yeah, which you know again lays out a lot of material, but
in more of a coherent, straightforward manner. I wish I had the time to do a reread I read a few months ago, but at least having that somewhere in my head has definitely helped to piece some list together as far as who's doing and what's happening. Yeah, yeah, so I get we'll get to some of that, but
before we get to the vul song stuff. The first poem, the first reading in this set that we're doing this week, is called all Wisest Sayings, So we've got a little bit about Thor again before we shift gears to the Vull songs, and as I've been doing. I'll just read the introduction provided by Larrington. Here, Thor intercepts a dwarf who, apparently, and unbeknown to Thor, is intending to marry the latter's daughter.
Thorp proposes a wisdom contest in which he tests the dwarf's knowledge of the terminology used by the different races of being for natural phenomenon. The dwarf knows the striking range of kennings and perhaps taboo words, but Thor's secret aim is to delay him until the sun comes up and turns.
Him to stone. Gets the kind enough of that.
So out of the readings for this time, this is definitely, I think the easiest read. But at the same time, at least on my d I probably have the least to say about it. Did anything stand out to you about this reading or anywhere you want to go with this?
Yeah, so, I think a couple of things I kind of got, and I'd listened to some discussion about it. It kind of even an interview with with Larrington, and she was talking about how she had to kind of like look at other texts and find stuff. But this one the main thing I pulled from it was it really just seems like, you know, this is a time when Thor comes back, the Dwarf is asking, not asking, He's telling, like, I would like your permission, but I'm
going to take it anyway to take your daughter. And you know, Thor typically comes in like with the hammer swinging, ready to like knock everybody out. But I think here is the like the rules of like hospitality. Since he's in his home, he can't just immediate I mean, I guess he's done that sometimes, but here he's respecting that
and not immediately murdering that the dwarf. And so yeah, it's kind of kind of a different one with that, and so I think, uh yeah, just basically Thor kind of have a more straint.
Yeah, and you know, maybe there is some cultural element here, maybe something about hospitality. Maybe it's just the fact that you know, we do have a number of different traditions of Thor coming together where you know, this does seem a little bit out of character.
Tip him Purdue.
I mean, he's not exactly a pleasant long run, but he's more cunning than just you know, hammer of Blazon. Because you know, we've got this lore contest that they get into, which teams to happen fairly regularly within the EDA, where the back and forth arguing not even so much just about lare, but it's about like what do different people call different things? It's more like a terminology debate.
And all these Lord debates, because you know, I'm coming to this material from first, starting with Tolkien and Lewis, these Lord debates always make me think of Ransom's fight with Merdlin when he first shows up, like fighting for dominance, talking about you know, all these different elements of the cosmos and mythology and whatnot. Yeah, I always makes to think of that, which I'm sure that's the tradition that Lewis is pulling from for that.
Yeah, for sure, I think you're right. I do think it's funny when he says, you know, he says, maybe I'm reading into this, but when he says, like, tell me this all Wise, I reckon Dwarf, and it kind of almost seems like he's kind of just like, I know, your name's all Wise, but I'm still like, you're just a dwarf to me, like you're nothing. But I don't know, I'm probably reading that into it, but he just he says it every single time. You know, I reckon, dwarf,
you have wisdom about all things. So I don't know if that's like the meaning way of talking, or he's just that's the way he wrote.
It very well.
Maybe I know that Thor has killed his number of dwarves and usually doesn't hold them in very high esteem. That's definitely very possible that he's demonstrating the irony of you know, referring to this dwarf as all wise. That's definitely possible. And of course his whole strategy here, where you know, the the lore or the actual fight isn't
actually what this story is about. The story is about Thor's cunning, and he's just keeping the debate going until daybreak when the dwarf turns the stone, which then reminds me, of course, of the Hobbit, where you know, Gandalff gets the trolls arguing until daybreak where they turn a stone.
There's definitely connection there, Yeah.
Definitely, let's see. Yeah, from some discussions on it, I did see that people had the thought that it could have been like this could have been almost a way of teaching children the different words for things, or something kind of like a oh, what do you call this. This is what each person, each of the mythical beings called it.
You know that that makes a lot of sense. I actually kind of like that teaching strategy. Yeah, you need to find some way to make use of that.
Yeah, we learned a little bit about the dwarfs, like appearance when he calls him, was it like pale face? Uh? Is it? Where was the so the.
It does something?
Eli, Maybe that was a different translation. Oh no, why why so pale? About the nostrils? You just spend the night with a corpse. I think it just like he spends so much time underground that he's just a very pale creature.
And then we get the kind of insults we tend to get from Thorn's fellows.
Yeah, that's funny.
I do wonder what they use the word liquid fundament, which Larrington doesn't really no, I mean she's just like, we don't know what this word is. And so it is kind of cool seeing all the different ways that they're they're describing something in terms of like like with rain in or something it being like roof tripping or something like that.
Yeah, it's it's a very descriptive language. That's one of reasons why even you know, I can't read the original, but in translation and reading this or reading like Beowulf or anything from this general time and region, the language is so so so cool, like so visual, so descriptive. They have so many different ways of referring to you know,
what we tend to think of as like objects. They turn into actions almost that they're turned into process, which I think that that kind of adds an extra energy to the language.
What's going on?
Uh? They talked about the the whalen's plaything when they're talking about the sun mm hm, which I think is just kind of playing with that the sun turns them to the stone. So because the whale then, as a dwarf so obviously wouldn't be playing with the song, I guess.
Right, which also is probably where we get Tolkien's Dwarf dwelling, I assume. Yeah, And I don't know that I have much else to say about this one anything else.
Now it's pretty just straightforward.
Yeah, yeah, that's the shorter one. It's more straightforward one.
Now.
Now we get into the poems that I keep mixing up in my head, the three poems with Helgi, well, two different Helgi's who also might be the same person, so that's okay, yeah, and then of course the yeah, the way that this is you know a range where Okay, first we were we were dealing with the first poem of Helgi hundings Bank who hunis Bonnie, and well, I guess we'll just take this one at time. Okay, we'll
start there. So in this poem, Helgi is this son of Zigmund, who is one of the major figures in the Volsung Sogam, which again and when listening to this, I recommend reading the Volsung Sanga, or I did after I read it, put together a short summary video. I'll link that in the show notes. I anyone wants to look at that, and may even, just for convenience sake,
drop the audio into the end of this episode. And so if anyone wants to just kind of get that the basic story down as we get in the more worked out saga, then you can just listen to that and then jump back here. Now, So Helgi is the son of Zigmund as well as Sinfiotli, which they're they're half brothers, different different moms in that since sin Fioli is actually the son of of Zigmund as and his sister, which gives us some children off here in vibes for sure if anyone's read that.
But again, just listen to that story. We want want to rehash that here.
So again sin Fioti who kind of who joined with Zigmund on various raids when Zigmund is kind of like an outlaw type figure, and so they rate it off together. Helgi was born of Zigmund in Borghild and so they're half siblings. But after Zigmund dies at the hands of the Saxon king hunting, Helgi sets off to avenge his father, which is a regular current in the the the saga of you know, aventuring your kinsman when they're killed by somebody,
so and so, so Helgi goes off. He kills hunting with Sinfiotli kill Hunding's children and in the process meets up with.
The valkyrie. Who is it who's in this one? What's her name?
Is it Sigurine in this one?
Yes?
Yes, yes, so so Segruin and so. But she is already promised to this guy, Hobrod, this prince I believe at this point Hoobroad. But she doesn't like him very much, and so she basically commissions, how you to go off and kill them so that way they can be together, And that's what takes place. And that's basically the gist of this poem. All right, that's probably succinctly as I can put that together. So what you have to say about this?
Yeah, I was trying to remember all the foulsen sega as I was reading through this. It's interesting with these poems just it's they're so like similar, but it's like different chunks and different kind of like interpretations. Yeah, no, exactly, sure, I noticed the since Fiote and Goubmand Goodmand later on, they're kind of exchanging, you know, insults again, as one does in any kind of Norse.
Right right before that last kind of major battle. They Yeah, they get into this insult fight whether they can get into each other's backstories. I mean, Guruan says that since Fiote killed his brothers, which he did because Zigmund's sister, who was Zigmund's sister, is that Signey?
Is that right?
Uh?
Do you remember all songs?
Yes?
Yes, And so.
Signey is basically taking against her will as this foreign king's wife, and you know she I mean out of spy for this king that she's married to basically gets sin Fioti to kill her children that she had with him, and so he does, you know, indeed, kill his brothers since that's brought up against him as well as there's a reference to when Sigmund and Sinfiolti wore these enchanted wolf skins that basically turned them to wear wolves, and so you know, these rampages that he used to engage
with those are brought up here. And then as there usually is, there there's some you know, some sexual insults thrown at each other. I can't remember off hand even where there's or but I remember coming across them.
Yeah, basically saying, you know, you were dressed as like one of their daughters or something, and you know it's just that was this and filt and and later on too.
Yeah, there's some reference I can't even remember if this is in this one or the other poem, which kind of repeats a lot of this, but in a different way. There's a mention about him into some guy's armor, like, yeah, so all sorts of things like that, like we've seen from this point now. One thing I thought it was interesting about this poem begins by talking about the norns who are the Norse fates essentially right, They're the ones who weave together the fates of the God's end of men.
And so it starts off in the second stanza saying night fell on the estate, then came norns, those who shaped fate for the prince. And so it's a sense that everything that we're about to read is happening according to fate, which is not uncommon for these Northern tales to be very clear that things are happening according to fate, which gets to this idea that the kind of the what happens in the story is not the point of the story. The point of the story is the hero's
relationship to fate and really how he received that. And so he said that things are going to happen as they're going to happen. But I guess the question are you going to fulfill your destiny by receiving it, you know, or are you going to fight against it? And we see that the path of honor that Helgy carries out is the one that just kind of accepts his fate, like you know, he's well, I guess this connects to
the next poem about Helge. So if I'll say my hand on that it's it's it's hard to talk about this in a straightforward way.
I don't know this one. This one's kind of like I felt like this one was the not as in depth of what's happening. I think it took like till the last three that kind of get what's going on.
Yeah, so I guess we can jump around some and should we go ahead and talk about the poem of Well, actually, one thing I do just want to mention it kind of in passing even the name of Helgi he referred to as hell Hounding's body, which you know that you know what we think of his last name, but as really more of a title, you know, speaks to the
fact that he is the bane of hunting. He's Hunting's bane, right, hunting, being this killer of his father that then he goes off and kills, and so he is the bane of hunting, which again gives us some of precedents for for Tolkien's language, like when he refers to, you know, Isildur's bane or Durham's bane as these things that did them in He's very much just using this northern kind of language, which I.
Think is an interesting connection.
But yeah, I guess we can go in and talk a little bit about the poem of Helge Yorwertsen, which really jumps back to a different Helgi, maybe at least a different version of Helgi. And so in this poem which I don't even know if I can summarize all this with, so we've got this king, well, maybe i'll read the introduction. Helgiy Hilbert's Son is a kind of doublet of Helgi Hondingsbahni, whose two poems surround his in
the manuscript. The poem of Helgi Heilbertson follows the basic plot of the other Helgi poems with an added prelude telling of the winning of Helgi's mother. This sets up Helgi's first adventure killing his mother's disgruntled former wooer. Then comes a flighting between the heroes Lieutenant Atli and a troll woman Rumgerd, the marriage with the valkyrie, and the death of the hands of the son of his former enemy. Compared with the other two Helgi poems, the plot in
this poem is less coherent. The fighting between Atlee and Shromguard parallels that in the previous poem, and Hayden's vow has no clear tragic consequences. He simply acquires his brother's bride after his death. The poem ends before we know whether Hayden dies avenging Helgi or whether he and Svava find love together. There's some parallels between this poem and the other poems. We're dealing again with a guy named Helgi,
and some kind of similar things take place here. He falls in love with the valkyrie Sapa, who seems who is or who will kind of reincarnate into the Valkyrie of the other poems. And it's at least heavily implied that the Helgi of the other poems is not merely named after this Algie, but he has the reincarnated Hugi, the one and the same. And so we get these these lovers, this Helgi and the Valkyrie, who die and then they get reincarnated again and sort of play out
similar roles in another lifetime. Yeah, I guess that's enough background. What what do you have to say about this?
I do think it's funny that she she shows like, hey, this is the least coherent compared to the other two, which are not super cot.
Correct, So it's definitely comforting to read that.
Yeah, yeah, I think throughout these poems, I think just to remember that, like it's the family of like Sigmund, and then the Huntings are enemies just hostled towards each other. So it's just a consistent like trade off of like, oh, you killed my kinsman, I'm going to come kill you or you know, and then you bring in the third portion, which is just like, hey, this is somebody that like loved that woman, but she didn't return the feelings, so now we got to kill him. But then his sons
are going to try and come kill us. So it's just a cycle of like revenge.
Right right, Which I think is a major point of a lot of these poems is that well, actually I don't know what the point is because you know, one hand, it would be easy to read this and get out of like the futility of the cycle of revenge. But at the same time, like the revenge is built into the honor system of these people, and so it's like it's even really criticism or the way of saying like this is how things are.
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it would be like very much different than what was happening there. You know, like they these are obviously built off of what's happening in you know, in history. You know, so that's around that time. I'm sure people were killing each other affinching and you're talking about it, but I didn't notice it, said Otti, But I don't know if that's supposed to be, Like I know when other poems Atli was like Attila the Hunt, but I don't know if that isn't this one.
Yeah.
I had that confusion at first too, But it seems to be two different people in my reading in that Atle seems to be basically the commander of Helgi or like one of his lieutenants, and based on context, it wouldn't make sense for that to be until the Hunt, and so I can only assume these are two different people.
But yeah, I thought about that as well.
Yeah, and I think that one comes later anyway, because that would have been with that's with like Brent Hill and everything. Right, Let's see, this does bring back him listening to the birds makes me think of when is it faff near slave by? Uh? Figured figured, yeah, and uh, he's able to hear the hear the birds speaking, which ends up being negative for him. But here I was starting to read it and I was like oh no, birds are talking. It's it's trouble now because they must lie or.
Just yeh, yeah, I assume understanding birds is some sign of wisdom, probably connected to like Odin and his ravens Odin being associated with wisdom, which you know, in this context, wisdom is not always necessarily a good thing. It's more like just knowledge more than anything else, which could be a good thing or it could not.
Be a good thing.
And I guess we don't get a sign it's necessarily a bad thing here, although Helgy does seem to get the sense that he is marked by fate, especially towards the end of the story, so I don't know. Maybe this He's always been kind of a doomed type of figure, which is again definitely a theme that Tolkien like to pick up, especially in the Silmarlion.
M Yeah, Nattie is at least clever enough to not just make an open ended yeah, I'll sacrifice anything to you from the you know, anything he wishes from the King's sport. He like lays out like not gonna kill like the bride's of the king, the king or any of his sons. So good on at.
Right, Yeah, And then again we get a fighting or the insult competition match, this time between this between Atli and the troll woman room guard, which again ends in her turning it a stone because they keep up the argument until sunrise. And so I just kind of repeated the same idea there, and.
I even feel like it's yeah, he's he's speaking to him, and doesn't it Hell he got in there. Maybe it was once, Oh that's what it was. They're doing kind of an insult.
And then right and then how he gets pulled in.
Yeah, hell, he gets pulled in and he's like, all right, at are you gonna, you know, sleep with this ogre? And he's like, right right, the worst of the love of dwelling ogres. He's a fitting that made for you. That's that's a good insult.
So yeah, you know, save that one for Twitter. Yeah, and then jumping toward the end, and we.
Can always go back if if need be.
But toward the end we find that he's, you know, after Helgi's won all these great conquests and you know, great glories. Then his brother Hayden back home, has somebody approached him. Who is it that's like a some kind of like witch or something.
I don't control.
I can't remember some something of that sort of nature approaches him and wants him to to get together with her, to sleep with her or something, and he says no. So then she dooms him essentially, and so that he gets into when he gets into the Ale where he starts drinking and then pledges that he's going to have Vava, his brother's valkyrie wife. And then he comes to and you know, he's recognizes in his sobriety that he made
a big mistake. But even Helgey recognizes that a there's like something sacred about what's said over ale, and so he says, all right, well now we have to duel over this and there's no way out of it. And that's how healthy dies.
Yeah, it's it's interesting.
You know, even back then, they're realizing, you know, when you're when you're drunk or making a pledge over drinks, you're typically gonna say, what's fully on your mind? Takes all the inhibitions out. Yeah, this troll woman riding a wolf with serpents's reins. I'm surprised, he said, no. I mean,
it just seems like such a very feeling. But yeah, yeah, good, just it's a it's a weird reaction from healthy where he's just like not immediately like taking it back, like this is the woman that I love if you're about to you're trying to sleep, where he's like, I'm probably gonna die. So he just this may turn out good for you, just wait.
Right.
It's like he's not really concerned with the outcome or the dishonor that he's been dealt with. He just recognized his brother and he stuff whole his honor and you know, do what he set out to do. And so he's just totally okay with his duel. But yeah, it's interesting that we think today that you know, if if somebody clearly inebriated that, okay, you're not gonna put too much
stock in what they're saying. But yeah, as you said, they really understand that no alcohol tends to actually bring out what's really in your heart and so it's actually more binding, not less binding, and and so yeah, just it's interesting that Helgi is totally kind of okay with this on an emotional level. I definitely think that it's not a bad idea to read like you know, the stoics like Marcus Raeli's or something alongside this Northern literature,
because it's so much like against the emotional. It's just this is the path of honor, this is what I need.
To go out and do.
Yeah, And so that is indeed how Helgi dies, and then it says here we get a prose conclusion right at the end after he dies that Helgi and Slava are said to have been reincarnated. And then that's how it ends, which sets us up for the other Helgi in his Valkyrie Bride of Vrocyrariy Lover that seems to
be them reincarnated. Although it's interesting that the end of the second poem of Helgi hundingsbani Are narrator pops in and says that reincarnation is like a old wives tale of the Pagans, and so I kind of assume this is some kind of Christian narrator saying that, okay, this is all bunkish, just the story.
There was a belief in pagan times that is crazy that I like that. Like with the pros that I know, Snory had left out some things that were more pagan and more kind of out there and kind of inserted more of what he thought with Christian stuff and kind of made it clear.
Yeah, I mean, you know, even in his introduction to the pros that Snory he tries to kind of humanize the gods even and say that, you know, they came from Troy, like he's trying to, you know, well, giving us the pagan mythos, he's kind of demathologizing it somewhat, he's trying to sanitize some of it, make it a little bit more palatable to a Christian audio. But I was surprised that even in the prose ata to get this epilogue where it just you know, makes this reference
to pagan times, you know, very very straightforward. Well, we've kind of jumped around a bit. So whether we're dealing with this second poems Bani or whatever, I don't know, what's something else on your mind?
Yeah, this, so it definitely doesn't tell us whatever happens. I know, heading rides out to Avenge we are told of he ends up being with Spava before she dies.
Mm hmm.
But yeah, in both of these it's it's talking about how he has this, he meets the same fate right he fights? Is it original part or the poem was alf son of Rob Moore, So it was a it was avenging his father killing. And then I can't remember if the second one was the same thing. No, it said Dag, So it was a little different than it was.
Because the second one has some seemed echoing a repetition of what happens in the first poem.
But then it takes it further.
In that we still have the the Valkyrie wants Helgi to go and kill the hole Road, you know. After so he kills Hunting and then he goes off to kill holb Road. But then the story kind of goes on from there, which is going to lead to this Halgy's death from what was it dog.
Or so dog is Dog is Hogney son, So that would have been Sigurn's father. I guess signs brother be a half brother, maybe a full brother, but instead of being Rod Moore's son, it's Hogny's son that fights him.
Yeah, so there's some similarity there. And I do think it's interesting that Dog, you know when he so that's so Dog is Segrew and the Valkyrie's sister, right, and so he's the one who's going to kill Helgi in the in this in this rendition, and it says that Okay, he sets off to to kill him, and he basically he makes a sacrifice to Odin, and so Odin kind of gives him the ability to kill Helgi. And Odin is just such an interesting character.
You know.
He shows up a few times in the the voll Song saga where sometimes he's helping the vol Songs and then helps randomly show up and bring about their death, which is what happens to to Sigmund I believe, who was in the Father of Hugi where Sigmund was in this battle, and then Odin shows up and basically shatters his sword, and then that leads him to be defenseless. Then he dies the sword, which would then be re forged by Ziggurd giving a strong Narsal vibes.
But that's beside the point.
And so yeah, Odin just kind of shows up and then shows up again at the end of the Wollsong saga to kill off the last Wolsong essentially, and so Odin, you know, he's always stirring up these conflicts between these people, these dynasties' families, and he's always like raising up a powerful warrior and then conspiring to bring about his death because he's trying to fill Valhalla with you know, these great warriors for you know, for Ragnarok, and so he's got his own ends at a play here.
Yeah that makes I mean, that makes sense because if these are men that would not have fallen in battle, probably they probably would have died of all day because they were stronger than everybody else. Obviously, Oden's gonna need to find a way to find the loophole so that they don't go to to uh underworld with hell.
Right right until you build them up and then make sure that they die in battle.
Yeah, I mean, to.
Be fair, how Gey is uh, you know, made to be like his right hand man in Dahala.
Yeah, not a bad way to go, yeah, I guess until the end. But the what was it? Yeah, and this one we see Cigaurine actually or Cigareine actually go and find hot Rock on like the point of death, laying in the field and just being like, yeah, I'm not gonna sink into your arms, bro, uh, you're actually gonna have your you know, y'all are all going to be eaten by wolves our show. It's like, all right, Helgi just likes really metal women, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, I mean at one point, she is even referred to as their their battle goddess.
It's yeah, definitely very very metal.
Valkyrie, very really yeah, just fine. This one brings in something that the other one doesn't in terms of meeting Helgi at the burial now, uh yeah, once they I don't know if he's like a in ghost form or just has not like fully laid down yet. What did you get from that? Were you seeing If it was like, I mean, this is just like not fully dead or.
Yeah, it seems to be that he has kind of some ability to, you know, even though he lives with Odin, you know, sometimes at night he's able to sort of cross the veil and you.
Know, appear in his burial ground.
I think it's interesting that I think, and I could be mixing up the poems, but I think it was in the poem of helge Orbitson where it says that he was toward the beginning of the poem, where it says that he was sitting on basically a burial mound and he saw valkyries passing by, And so there's some
kind of connection here. I don't know exactly what that is, but that there's some connection here with the Helgi's with burial mounds, the da sort of like living on the edge of things, having some connection to the beyond the other. And so Helgi seems to have this sort of special liminal sort of existence at this point where by day he's with Odin and by night he's able to visit with or with Sigrun at the burial mound.
Yeah. Even I mean, maybe it's something to do with like he's destined for Valhalla, va Hall or whatever, you know, where he's down the Barymone seeing the Valkyries and then later coming out and with Odin with like you're saying, mm hm, they just they just spent one night together and he was occupied. I uh. Before we get to that part, it talks about Odin just thrower ice. Helgy throws in that hunting is it's basically like a servant in Uh right.
Yeah, we're told that he has made you know, basically, so he's asked to roll over everything in Valhalla alongside and the first thing he says is hunting, you shall fetch the footpath put me in his place.
Yeah, you know, scores were apparently not settled when he killed him.
Yeah, it would be awful get killed even about how that's that's your fate. So Seagrun has this encounter with Hell, gets the burial mound. Next day, she seems to not be there, and then we're told that she didn't live long for sorrow and for grief, and so that's really how the story ends. And I don't know, I mean, do you have anything else to say?
Not A whole lot kind of went over the stuff and this one. I know that it's said that this was told and you basically in a source that was lost at the time, so song of Kara care. But yeah, I do feel that Volson Sega kind of does a little clear a little more straight line than this is. But it's cool kind of seeing different maybe how it was told in different places.
Yeah, and from what I remember in the Volson saga, does it even go into I know that Helgee going off to to kill hunting, and I know that's mentioned this saga, but I feel like we get more detail about Helge in this version.
I think I think you're right. I think it just kind of like briefly summarizes that, oh, these are like the ancestors and then kind of moves on. So his family's just destined for Valkyries.
I guess, I guess, so, which I mean is connected to the fact that they're especially marked by Odin, who you know, doctor is obviously associated with Odin. Yeah, and so that is the story of the Helgies. There we go, all right, Well, don't know that I have a great conclusion here.
Do you?
Do you have anything to recommend anything you've been reading recently outside of this?
So I actually joined another book club and we're working our way through. It's a it's nothing to do with this. It's actually a Japanese book Shipwrecks, which it's kind of interesting to see, like what it's like a fishing village and kind of life there, and like the eighteen hundreds, I think late eighteen hundreds, really nice hundreds, and so kind of does give a feeling of what life would have been like on a fishing type village in anyone in the world. I guess that's cool.
Yeah, it's definitely different. That's cool.
My I mean, basically everything I've been reading recently is related to Tolkien for this Tolkien class that I'm leading now.
But I've I've really enjoyed. I don't have it around me right now.
But the the let me see if I can look at up profest and I'll probably cut out here where I'm just looking at that out. Yeah, I've really liked the Reader's Companion to Lord of the Rings by Hamilton's Skull, which it's just it's such a detailed commentary on Lord of the Rings. It provides all kinds of backstory connections to biographical connections.
In Tolkien's life.
It points you to letters, points you to, you know, where to look in History of Middle Earth, looks like other drafts of that section, that of the Reading. It's like a super detailed commentary that runs all throughout Lord of the Rings, which is just great for just compiling all this stuff secondary information, but also pointing you to, you know, when you want to look more about the backstory of this character or like what this looks like in different drafts and whatnot. It's just a great kind
of hub to get to all these different areas. And so I can't believe I haven't come across this before, but yeah, so that's definitely something I would recommend for studying Tolkien.
Yeah, Yeah, that's that's good. I sometimes I see those and I'm always like, Okay, who's writing kind of a gimmick, you know, just to like if it's a reading compaining, You're like, I really need that, But that sounds like it's actually very forminative.
Yeah.
Yeah, basically anything with the Hammin and Skull authors or editors on there. It seems to be pretty reliable. And you know, I'm still, all things considered, relatively new to Tolkien. I mean able spent like the whole.
Life reading him.
You know, I first started in twenty twenty one. I think I've just been going NonStop since then. But yeah, so I'm still discovering all kinds of new stuff. So yeah, that's definitely something I would recommend. Awesome, Well cool, So yeah, next time we'll cover the next probably four readings or so, but I'll post that in the discord. But otherwise I guess that's where we'll go ahead and end it off.
So thanks again for joining us and for carry in probably more than half of the conversation appreciated.
Man, it was good, I got it. M hm.
The saga begins with Sigi, who was introduced as a son of Odin, giving him legendary status from the beginning, and letting us know that Odin will be taking a special interests In this line, Seggy was in fellowship with Scotty, a man of greater stock and power than he, who owned a thrall named Breddy, who excelled in skill and accomplishments. One day, Siggi took Bretty hunting for the entire day and into the evening, and Bretty proved himself to be
the superior hunter, much to Siggi's disappointment. Unable to accept the wound to his pride wrought by being bested by a mere thrall, Seggi attacked and killed Bretty and buried his corpse in a snowdrift. When Scotty asked about the venture, Siggi attempted to lie, but the truth became known and
Siggy was driven away as an outlaw. With guidance from Odin, Sigge, in a company provided by his father, became fearsome raiders, and Siggi eventually became a great and powerful king of Hunland, the exact location of which is difficult to pin down, but according to Snorri Stirlson, the thirteenth century compiler of the Prosetta, this is likely somewhere in France. As Siggy
grew in years and prestige. His wife's brothers, who held his trust, conspired against him, reminding us of Siggy's previous betrayal of his trust. Hunting companion Siggi's in laws assaulted his land and killed the aged king, who was caught unprepared. Siggi's son, Rarier, was not present during the attack. He gathered together a company of trusted companions and local chieftains, and he took back his father's land and claimed his
inheritance as king. Once he was well established, Rarier was faced with competing obligations to his kin and to his father's honor, a tense ethical position that is often found in the Great Germanic legends. However, because of his uncle's great sins, Rarier no longer counted their ties of kinship to be binding, and he honored his father with vengeance, striking down his killers and claiming more land, wealth, and
power than his father ever had. During these exploits, he also took a wife, but they were unable to produce an air, and so they implored the gods until Friga heard their prayers and asked Odin to intervene. Odin sent one of his balkyries lude the daughter of the giant Krumnir to bring an apple of fertility to King Rarier, and she did so, dropping the apple on the King's lap. He ate of the apple, and the queen was soon
found to be with child. The pregnancy lasted long, and when King Rairier was away on a campaign, he took sick and died in distress. The queen could not give birth for six years, at which point the child was finally cut out of her. The child kissed his mother, and then she breathed her last, as her life by this point was utterly spent. The boy was given the name Volsung, and he was a king and a warrior
who surpassed his fathers before him. Volsung eventually married Siuld, the valkyrie who brought the apple to his father, thereby introducing a semi incestuous melody, if not exactly then at least in a manner that rhymes with events that are yet to come. Volsung Atiuld bore ten sons and one daughter. The eldest were the twins Zigmund and his sister Zigny. Zigny's hand in marriage was requested by Zigir, king of Goutland. And although Zigny was reluctant, she honored her father's direction
to accept the proposal. During a feast held to celebrate this union, a stranger enter the hall. He wore a modeled cape and hood. He was barefoot, and he had only one eye, which reveals to us that this was
in fact none other than the All Father Odin. This stranger brandished a magnificent sword and thrust it into the great tree that grew through the middle of the hall, and he made the declaration that whoever could draw the sword from the trunk shall receive it as a gift, and this would be a sword better than any of them had ever borne. Each the noblest of men made their attempts, but to no avail. Finally, Zigmund, son of King Volsung, grasped his hand around the hilt and pulled
it out with no effort whatsoever. It was he who would bear this great sword of the All Father. King Zigger offered to buy the sword for triple its weight in gold, to which Zigmund answered, you could have taken the sword from where it stood no less than I did, if it were meant for you to carry it. But now that it has come first into my hands, you will never obtain it, even if you should offer me
all the gold you own. Ziger was deeply offended at this, but being an underhanded and deceitful man, he plotted his revenge in silence rather than demonstrating open scorn. Zigger decided to leave for home the next day, but Zigni employed her father to annul the marriage, for she was informed by her gift of foresight that misery would otherwise follow. King Volsung did not see sufficient reason to commit this dishonor, and so he told his daughter to continue with her
new life as so agreed. Before leaving, Zigur invited Volsung and his sons to visit him in Goutland in three months time, and Volsung agreed to the offer. When the appointed time came, Zigny called her father and brothers together for a private conversation. She informed them that Ziggur had gathered an unbeatable army and that he had intended to betray the Volsung clan, and she implored them to flee.
King Volsung declared that he would not betray his pride in his honor, but that he and his men would instead stand and fight with fierce and valiant combat, Volsung charged the hostile forces of Ziggur, but Volsung's forces were no match for the overwhelming power of Zigger's. King Volsung fell in battle and his ten sons were taken captive.
Zigny pleaded with her husband on behalf of her brothers, but he agreed only that they should not be immediately huge down, but that they would instead be subject to torture and lingering deaths. The sons of Volsom were pinned down under a great trunk in the woods, and every night a she wolf who may have actually been King Zigger's mother transformed by sorcery, would arrive to feast on one of the brothers. This continued every night until only
Zigmund was left. Before the final knight that would have claimed his life as well, Zigny instructed one of her trusted servants to smear honey on Zigmund's face and into his mouth. When the she wolf arrived that evening, she did not instantly devour him, but first licked the sweet honey off his face and reached her tongue into his mouth, allowing Zigmund to bite the wolf's tongue, causing the great wolf to recoil back and split the trunk that held
his feet. As she recoiled, Zigmund did not release her tongue from his teeth, causing it to be sundered from her mouth. With this great wound, the she wolf bled out and died, and Sigmund was free to take his leave. Sigmund then took up residence in the woods as an outlaw, while Zigger believed that he had killed the last of the Volsungs save for his wife. Signy had two sons of Zigger, whom she sent one at a time to aid Zigmund and to potentially serve as companions of revenge
against Zigger her husband. However, both proved to be cowards, so Zigny, bearing no love for her husband or his offspring, asked Sigmund to kill them, which he did without remorse. One day, when Zigny was sitting in her chamber, a sorceress appeared to her. Zigny requested the sorceress change appearances with her, and with this magic in effect, Zigny went to Zigmun's home in the forest, seduced him, and laid
with him for three nights. Sometime later, she gave birth to a son, Sinfiotli, who grew to be large and strong. Zigmund and Sinfiote rated together, sometimes as men and sometimes with the guise of enchanted wolf skins. Once Sinfiotle was fully grown, Zigmund was ready to avenge his father by striking at King Zigger. Late in the evening, Zigmund and Sinfiotli hid themselves among ale caskets outside Zigger's main hall.
By this point, Zygney and Ziger had two more young sons who were playing with golden toys, and as a the golden ring rolled down the hall. The boys chased after it. Zigmund and Sinfioti presented themselves with terrifying appearance to these children, and Signy told Zigmund to kill them, but Zigmund stays his hand this time. Symfioti, however, has no qualms with dispatching his half brothers, and he swiftly
does so. Their bodies were then cast into the hall of King Zigger, who called the guards to his defense. Zigmund and Simfiotle fought valiantly, but they were eventually overpowered, bound and fettered, and sealed alive in a stone cairn. However, Zigny had subtly provided them with provisions, including Zigmund's great sword given to him by Odin. With this noble blade, Zigmund cut through the rock and the two left freely and promptly returned to the hall of the King, which
they set ablaze. Zigmund asked Zigny to leave with him, at which point she revealed that Simfioti is his son, and that she had plotted all of these years for vengeance against her husband. She finds contentment in knowing that the deed had been done, but she believes that her life was spent in the process and she now must die in the flames along side her husband. Zigmund takes the throne and marries Borghild, who gives birth to his son Helgi. When Helgi is of age, he desired to
marry Segrun, daughter of King Hogny. However, Zigrun was betrothed to King Hothbrod, so naturally, Helgi and Simptioli invade Hothbrod's realm. Helgi usurps his kingship and then marries Zigrun. Zinfield Lee also finds a woman that he desires to marry, but he must kill a competing suitor in order to secure her hand. It turns out that the suitor was actually Borkild's brother. In vengeance, she poisons and kills Sinfiotli, leading
Zigmund to cast her out. In his old age, Zigmund married another named Geordis, much of the anger of King LINGVI, who also sought her hand. Lingviy attacks Sigmund, and in the midst of the battle, Odin appeared, armed with his spear to make divine intervention. Sigmund struck Odin's spearshaft with his sword, but the blade shattered on impact As this mysterious spearman vanished. That evening, Geordis found the languishing Zigmund
on the battlefield among the slain. Zigmund of four sortis that she is carrying a son in her womb and tells her to guard the charge of the sword that was broken. Shortly thereafter, Prince Alph of Denmark arrives and clucts Spoils from the battlefield aunt Ordis for his wife. She gives birth to Ziggard, son of Zigmund, who is
raised in the Danish court. Ziggurd grows to be strong and valiant in the tradition of his father's, and eventually his tutor Reagon reveals to him the story of fof Near the Dragon, who we come to find is in fact Reagan's brother, who killed their father to secure a great treasure for himself. Assus Lewis said of us to scrubs dragoning sleeping on a dragon's hoard with greedy, dragonish thoughts in his heart, he had become a dragon himself.
Thus we have fofth Near the Dragon, who would find no Aslan.
To remove his.
Scales, Reragon re forges the sword of Odin that was broken, thereby providing Sigurd with a legendary sword known as gram before facing off with the dragon. Zigard uses his sword for vengeance, slaying his father's killers. With this duty fulfilled, he faces off with the dragon, which he readily despatches before liberating its great wealth, including the dreaded Helm of Fear. He roach the dragon's heart, and when its enchanting blood touches his mouth, he gains wisdom, which now allows him
to understand the speech of birds. Zigmund hears the birds discussing how Regan intends to betray Zigmund, so Zigmund acts preemptively and strikes Regan down with great wealth and power. Ziggurd goes to Frankish lands and vows to marry the valkyrie Brinhild. However, the sorceress Grimhild bewitches Ziggurd into forgetting about Brinhild so she would marry her daughter Gudrun, and
she also tells her son Gunnar to marry Brinhild. Sigurd and the three sons of Grimhild go to King Boodli, father of Brinhild, so that Gunnar may ask for her hand in marriage. Brinhild is in a hall surrounded by fire and will only marry one who is brave enough to ride through the flames, as she believes that only
her Ziggurd would perform such a feat. She is correct, Butziggard, still bewitched, knows nothing of his connection to Brinhild, so in service to Gunnar, they switch upon spearances and Zigmund appearing as Gunnar passes through the flames and secures her hand in marriage for Gunnar. Bridenhild eventually discovers what happened and she falls into deep despair, only desiring to wed
the great and courageous Ziggurd. Attempting to deal with this problem, Gunnar gives his brother wolf and snake meat, which sends him into a violent rage, with which he stabbed the sleeping Ziggard before dying. Ziggrid throws Grom and cleaves his assailant in two Bridenhild tells Gunnar that what he did was wrong, and she stabs herself in despair and dies. Grimhild orders Gudrun, Sigurd's widow, to marry King Attlee, also known as Attila the Hun, who proves himself to be
treacherous under false pretenses. Gunnar and his brother Hogny are summoned to the court of King Attlee, who desires the treasure of Ziggurd. Hogney's heart is cut out and Gunnar is bound and cast into a pit of snakes. Gudrun is able to give Gunnar a harp, which he plays his toes, sending all the serpents into a slumber, except for one, which bites his heart and p ruse his doom. In retaliation, Gudurun kills Atli's sons and feeds their blood,
and hearts to their father. Gudrun and Hogni's son Niflun then stobs Atli while he's sleeping and sets his court ablaze. Feeling her life spent by this point, Guduruan attempts to cast herself to the sea, but she was carried by the waves to the fortress of King Yunaker, whom she married and bore three sons, who are raised alongside Zwanhild, her daughter by means of Ziggard. Vanhild was exceedingly beautiful and her hand was desired of King Yormanrek, but she
instead marries his son Ronb. In response, Goorman Rect has his son hanged and Zvanhild trampled by horses. In revenge, Gudrun's sons cut off Yormanrec's hands and feet, but he calls for his Housecarls, who, with Odin's guidance, kills gunrun
sons and so ends the Saga of the Volsungs. In this presentation of the Saga of the Volsongs, which originally part of my course called Life, Death and Meaning with Beowulf and Boethius at the time of this recording, you can purchase the course in full at Andrew Snyder dot Patia dot com, although it will soon be moving to Patreon For the latest updates, Follow Mythic Mind on Patreon at patreon dot com, slash mythic Mind, or feel free to reach out to me at Mythicmind podcast at gmail
dot com or on x at Andrew inn Snyder