67 - The War of the Rohirrim

Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue whism of the past between primary and secondary worlds. I'm your host, AREW. Snyder,

Yeah, so first off, thanks for having me on. I'm excited to talk about this, especial because we have somewhat of a different.

Opinion on Worthy here.

So let's just be I expect a good conversation, but yeah, I run the Master Samwis Channel, which the tagline for that channel is essays on the Stories that really matter, right, obviously borrowing that phrase from Tolkien. I think Sam says that in the book to say it at some point, I'm trying to sometimes my memory of the books and

Right.

So that's taking even stories of pagan worlds like the God of War video games, and how like the characters do in fact portray you know, universalized Christian motifs, and you know, through through their growth that they go through, their themes are very much, you know, pointing towards God.

Side note. I love the Rohan flag in your your background.

Versus that I was. It was a while ago.

One of my favorites. Cool now, Thomas, You're probably tired of introducing yourself onto my show, but things like this tend to bring in some new people, and so tell us little bit about yourself as well.

Yeah, I'm an author.

Writer, podcaster. I wear a lot of hats. People watch this show might be interested to know that I do a lot.

Of my podcasting for the Starquest Production Network or SQPN. You can find us on YouTube and anywhere you get your podcasts. I'm the regular host and sometimes, you know, sometimes I don't host, sometimes I'm the panelist. But I'm a regular host on the Secrets of Middle Earth podcasts

We just recorded our review for this film, so I'm.

Excited to talk about it again because you know, I I.

Talk about talking to anyone who will listen, so.

Right, as do probably many, many of us and those of us who are who are listening right now. So I think this will be interesting conversation because, you know, Thomas and I both seem to be at least mostly favorable toward this movie. I know Sam is not, although and I'm sure that if this conversation spills into broader territory at all, you know, we probably have some differences when it comes to Rings of Power as well. You know, I think that Thomas is probably more favorable, though maybe

What it is.

I you know, I don't think it's the greatest show ever or anything like that.

I enjoyed it, and you know, I.

Think if you listen to our reviews of the show, we were broadly favorable, though we definitely you know, had our problems with it and went on at length about that.

But yeah, no, I I enjoy it.

As one of the most expensive bits of fan fiction ever made.

I could actually mostly sympathize with that it's expensive fan fiction. But uh, oh well, I guess we already brushed the subject. Sam, what do you think of a Ring's Power? Real quickly?

So I watched the first season in its entirety back when it around, when it came out, and then I watched the first three episodes of the second season and never bothered watching anything more than that. It I certainly don't hate it as much as I've seen.

People hate it.

I don't think it's particularly well written. I think the characters suffer from a lot of inconsistencies.

Uh.

And that affects Glad Real Lever, Gladial to gil Galad to Dura Duran during the third and.

It just it was it was really boring.

I was my wife and I watched the first two episodes of the second season together and it was just like I was falling asleep, we were both falling asleep. And she had no interest in watching the third episode. And this is I'm a fairly harsh critic of stuff, especially for stuff that's connected to a world that I love, that I grew up with, that I have very very strong attachment to.

My life. Is a less harsh critic.

So when she has no interest in watching something, no one you know, continuing to watch something, uh, that that's kind of a it's a good, good, uh good bar for me to set, like Okay, this is not just me being irrationally critical.

That's fair, and yeah, it's I really want to enjoy Tolkien media, Like, I don't want to be super critical. I hate this, you know, I don't want to be that guy. And so I've kind of talked myself into tolerating Rings of Power as kind of expensive, superficial fanfiction. It's it's shallow, but at the same time, I mean, even in our current culture, as far as like mainstream fantasy goes, even an echo of an echo of Tolkien has at least some merits to it, even if it's not what it could be.

Absolutely, if there if there are things you can glean from Rings of Power, and there's i mean there's more cleaning for more of their hero Yeah, that speak to the truths that Tolkien talks about that have you know, even just little bits of his philosophy and his his worldview that are dropped in there, then that's great, right, If if you get that out of there, that's fantastic.

Right, And that that's basically the point of like of the podcast, I do secrets have been alerted where it's like, if we can find anything, you know, that brings us back to to Tolkien where we'll go on and on about it.

So yeah, right, I mean, as long as they're not being it's clearly like, yeah, intentionally subversive in like major philosophical way. It's like, I'm actually, I don't want them to tink you with the plot the lower more than they have to to adapt it to a story. I don't want that. I can tolerate that. The only the only times when I go like hardcore critic is when I feel like there are philosophical subversions. And I mean there's some of that, but I don't feel like it's

Yeah, well, everything exists on a slider scale. Peter Jackson changed the characters in significant ways in some points and certain plot points.

To me, I have a whole.

Video on why the Army of the Dead is BS, and you know I named it as such because it is severely cheap into the victory of men for one thing, and you know it didn't make sense within the law anyhow. But yeah, so like that, there there's a whole sliding scale of it, right. I think Peter Jackson's did a much much better job. I would never I don't equate the two. Peter Jackson's movies far outstrip up anything that's

We don't talk about that.

That's a running gag on our show on the Secrets of Biddle Earth that we always like, we we bring up the Hobbit movies and then we're like, there's our contractually obligated reference to the Hobbit trilogy. It's like, we haven't reviewed them yet, and we're kind of teasing fans because we keep bringing it up and then we.

End up not reviewing it. But we'll get to them eventually.

There is no movie in Bossing say.

See, I actually have not even watched all of them through I've earlier this year, I finally decided, all right, I'm gonna give it a shot. And maybe I shouldn't have started with the extended edition. And I don't know, but.

There's an extended edition of them. There's an ext I didn't know there's an extent I've I've only seen the first two. To be clear, I've never bothered watching the Bottle of Five Armies but I didn't realize there was an extended edition of these.

Yeah, I'm like, I felt like that's what I needed to do. I made it Goblin.

The extended edition of of Unexpected Journey is so poorly edited, like they just jammed those deleted scenes in there, and they actually break continuity with the rest of the movie, not like the extended editions of the of the original Lord of the Rings films.

The correct ver. Yeah, the extended editions are bust.

Yeah, it's like but with the Hobbit at least I can only speak to that first one. But in terms of the extended edition, but it's so badly edited, it's it wow.

Okay, yeah, yeah, I said I made it to Goblin Town. Got distracted.

Oh yeah, that's where some of the worst editing snaffoos are in Goblin Town.

Yeah, but okay, we're we're starting to hit like every to hear. But let's bring it back to now before we get into our thoughts of you know what we walked out with, And I should say that, you know, this movie just came out. I don't know about you guys. I've only seen it one time, which yeah, makes reviews a little bit difficult. Because I know some things kind of need to grow on you. You kind of need to see it more than once. So these are all just

I was highly skeptical.

I think I said this in my review, but I'm just highly skeptical going into everything nowadays, especially for stuff that is in a world that I love, because I've been hurt so many times. My favorite, one of my favorite shows that's come out in recent years was and Or, and I've been a Star Wars fan as long as I can remember.

And I didn't watch and Or for.

At least until several months after it was all completely done with its twelve episode run, because I went you know, I liked Rugue one.

I liked it a lot, actually, but it was like he was a fine character. I guess I'm not really that interested. And then I just kept hearing good things.

Oh, I guess I'll check this out because I but I'd been burned too many times.

I'll be on Kenobi Show.

The Bubba Fet Show, Rings of Power, and who knows what else. And so I was very very skeptical going in for sure, and it honestly was probably better than I expected it to be.

Yeah, I think it's fair. And you know, I'm gonna be careful leough to derailist on Star Wars now, but I can I can definitely sympathize with that. I mean, I you know, I watched a couple of seasons of Mandalorian Boba Fet, but after.

That then is very bad.

Yeah, I never saw it. I mean, I got to a point where and I can't even believe I say this ten years ago, I wouldn't believe it. I don't really care about Star Wars anymore. I just feel like it's just sort of fizzled out for me for so many reasons. But again, it's not a Star Wars podcast. Okay, So uh, all right, fair enough, You're you're very skeptical for I think some some good reasons. Thomas, What were you thinking of going into this?

I was broadly.

Optimistic going into this, I had my concerns, but uh, I liked the trailers that I had seen. The director of this film also directed The Ninth Jedi, which was one of my favorite of the Star Wars anime shorts that.

They released, so, you know, bringing back to Star Wars again.

But uh but.

Yeah, and I was like, well, I really really liked the Ninth Jedi. I think he'll probably do a good job in the Lord of the Rings universe.

So yeah, I I did have.

My concerns in terms of lore and stuff and how they were going to handle some of the characters.

But when coming out of the.

Movie, I was broadly pleased with with what they did.

Yeah.

So I I found my uh my optimism rewarded a little when I came out. Yeah, I thought, definitely it was superior, obviously superior to the Rings of Power in terms of the lore area. I I basically I think my the first thing I said when I came out was that it was respectful to the lore the way a Jackson Verse movie should be, unlike.

Some of it, like the Hobbit, like the Hobbit movies.

But anyway, yeah, so, uh, yeah, I was broadly optimistic going in and felt good coming out, So I definitely think it's it's worth seeing if you're a Tolkien fan.

Yeah, when when when I first heard the concept, that's very interested. I mean, yeah, I love Rohan, I love the Anglo Saxon vibes. You know that the the area of the law is definitely appealing to me. And the fact that they're dealing with an appendix and part of appendix that's relatively short means that they have some good free range to tell a story without breaking the law, if you know, if they did it right, and I feel like they largely accomplished as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, what you said earlier about it's hard for me to review stuff after seeing it one time. Right, I formed my initial opinion of it. I made my review based off of that. I talked about it, said to my wife, you know, I'm gonna review it based on how I feel now. I might watch it again and feel differently. Like that's the tough thing, you know. I don't generally review movies that have just come out. I review stuff that has been out for a long time

Yeah, I And I think that says something. Just the fact that it's something that you know, that you you know right now at least first impressions. You' you're pretty critical of the movie, but something that you want to see again. That says something about it. And I totally agree with Rings of Power. Now I've seen every episode that comes out. I'll keep watching just because I like to know what people are doing in the Tolkien media universe.

So one of the biggest things that really soured me on the movie was that they very clearly were going for the vibe of, hey, you remember.

Jackson's Lord of the rings.

That was I mean, it was straight in the beginning of the trailer, right, you know, remember Peter Jackson. And then you had I think I think it's at south Park that has like the member Berrys, that's their bet. I don't know, I don't generally watch south Park, but like that's you know, it's again remember this, Remember that you had the Mamma kill. You had the Watcher in the water, which I'm sure that breaks some more being in Rohan, but whatever, I don't really care about that.

It was just but it was one of the things.

And then you had the whole the battle outside of outside of Ederas was very much their charge. There was very much like we're trying to make this as much like the charge at the poll in our fields.

As we can.

And there are a couple of the moments, Oh you had in similar venue had a frail off showing up at Helm's Deep and laving the charge down the slope like Gandalf and Amerd the movie. I'm sure there were a couple of things I'm missing, but there were. You had the the Orcs pulling rings off dead bodies, as if that was going to find the one ring that basically there is Gandalf showing up at the end and or being mentioned at the end of Sarmon shows at

You remember this? Like, yeah, I remember, don't remind me.

I'd rather be watch remind me of that, but I'd rather be watching that movie. And then my other main criticism is, like, I care a lot about characters and character arcs, and I think Harrah's had a decent one if they'd ended differently, because they kind of just they they she kind of she did did go through a struggle, she went through even some despair, and she came out hopeful. There are two moments that I think I would have done differently, And there's one where Wolf asks her, like

She's she's still loyal.

She tells him, you know, like, you have my sword if you need it. But I feel like they could have handled her arc better. Helm, I feel was was was changed from the from the book, and just in small ways, but ways that I think matter where he starts a more honorable brawl with uh Prekka and let's get the first punch. And if you read the again, it's a it's a couple of lines, but it really sounds like Helm sucker punches him, and then yeah, so

And here's the interesting thing, Sam, I don't disagree with anything.

You just say this just for me.

All of that, the movie still landed on the broadly positive side. But yeah, I pretty much agree with all of those criticisms. Like, if I was looking for ways I could improve the movie, I would pretty much take what you said as a as a starting point.

Yeah, I think those are reasonable criticisms.

So so, Thomas, what do you think they did right? Or like that? You know that outweighs those criticisms that you that you share.

I actually did though, I think one thing I thought they did a good job of showing him as as kind of a morally ambiguous character, although I feel like they could.

Have done leaned into that more.

I mean, he he he banishes his his nephew seemingly for no good reason. He puts, you know, too much trust in that one guy. Oh, I would have made that less obvious. By the way, if I was going to critique something, who would have thought a guy called Lord Thorne would be the trader?

Like I would have made that.

I would have made that a little bit less on the nose. But in any case, so what what what made it work for me was, Yeah, I really like seeing characters grow and change throughout the movie. And I I just I just thought that in terms of a lot of the female main protagonists that we have seen recently, I thought Harrow was by far the strongest, Like, you know, in terms of of her her character arc was pretty solid.

She can't single handily take on the military of Newmanor and a sword fight, right, yeah, you know.

Like and and I I was just on on board with with what the characters were doing. I thought that a lot of the heroic moments landed for me, And when when I was catching little changes from those few paragraphs that we had in the appendices, I was like, Okay,

If it makes sense.

Yeah, in a lot of contemporary media, they feel they need to make the men stupid or peevish or corrupt or incompetent or or any of these other things in order to lift up the female character, which doesn't disserve to both, not.

Just the men. But it's like that they did not do that here.

And I just felt that and Helm was suitably heroic, and so were the brothers. I like the brothers a lot. I agree I would have I would have liked more time to develop them, but but I get that we're we're not doing a full three hours here, like like Jackson would have done. But yeah, I and my my biggest lore I'll tell you what my biggest concern going is in was was that they were going to write frail Off out of the movie completely, and they did

In his place.

The biggest changed law change I thought they made was giving Hara the final kill of Wolf rather than frail Off. In the book, it's frail Off, but I thought I expected that once I knew freil Off was in the movie, I was like, Okay, they're gonna give Hera the kill because of what they're of, what they're built, the personal animosity between them. So I thought in terms that made sense for this adaptation. And I don't think it's too much of a stretch. But yeah, I know, I'm kind

Begin to ramble, it's just because I'm tired. We've had a busy week at work.

But yeah, fair enough. Yeah, and I will say that I am glad that they didn't make hera the Queen of Rohanna at the end. That was just right. Yeah, that would have been called me to just write it off altogether, because I, like you said, she she's not a just like smash the patriarchy, everything's about me liberation. No, she she very much serves the honor of her king and father. She is concerned about the good of her people.

Yeah, so there's there's not having an arc, which you can do. I think what what bugged me was that the narrator told us about her. I hate it when about If they hadn't in glude to those lines, I'd probably much more favorable, but that really bucks me. And yeah, so I think she they walked the line with her being.

Too talented versus not too talented.

You know, you have great moments like she know she doesn't take out that troll that was there on the hip cliffs around Helm's Deep for whatever reason. You know, Helm has to do that. Great, but she does also just like very quickly organize an evacuation for better us.

Okay, great, you.

Know she's she's been in the royal family, She's able to do that, She is able to do these things. I think they walked that line pretty well with her being very competent and capable and also.

Having her moments where she didn't feel like she was.

And then yeah, otherwise the character just it didn't resonate with me a ton she was, she was good enough for the story, but there there was the one moment that felt not as earned, not as well earned as I think the story thought it was. And I do remember this was one of the ones where I violidated this with my wife, and I was like, am I being ridical to that?

I thought.

The same thing was when they're at the gate of the Hornberg and Helm, you know, pushes her back inside and he's like, I should have listened to you, you know, I should have trusted you, And I went, you didn't listen to her one time?

And you know, that was kind of it.

She just happened to be right, Like, sure she was right, but this wasn't like an ongoing thing or she didn't have any particular reason. You know, it didn't seem like he was being all that brash in his decision making.

And that was kind of the larger problem.

That I didn't really bring up that I had, which it seemed that this story was so focused on Harah, Right, you say, the story is the story and charags the characters. I felt that the story really was about her, And when a story is so focused on a character, I want the character to have more, more of an arc,

I wanted to see more of that effect on Haarra.

I think I said this interview, she goes some incredibly traumatic stuff and out the side more or less unchanged, and for a story that, in my opinion, the story was very focused on her. Like Helen's death for example, in the in the appendix, it just takes place as he's out rating the encamped dun Landers, right, delanience whatever, it just you know, he goes out. He's doing that repeatedly, and eventually one night he goes out for too long and he freezes to death on his feet ready to fight.

I think that's fair, especially drawing on the Phroto comparison, because you know, Ereferen's Eric Gorne. But Frodo is obviously the central figure of the story, and well, he doesn't necessarily undergo a radical character transformation. He does have a deepening of his character, you know, as he bears the burden, he incorporates grief and sorrow into his character in a new way. You know, even as Gandolf his master so

Yeah, I thought Helms was handled well. I thought he was.

He was more complex than I thought he was going to be, you know, because we see where you know, his his pride sometimes leads him to make rash decisions or you know, he he literally at one point doesn't know his own strength.

He's like, oh, there's no way I killed that guy, and it's like I don't know, man, did you?

But anyway, Yeah, I I felt that that the the the movie shows him as you know, an honorable kingly man despite character flaws, and and I felt that was very interesting. I felt, you know, as maybe not to to audiences who aren't as familiar with the appendices, maybe his over the top heroic death.

Might not seem earned, but for someone who knew that it.

Was coming like that, the the over the topness of it actually worked very well for me personally. But yeah, that that's That's one criticism I I do want to lodge at the movie is that I don't know how audiences who aren't extremely familiar with this stuff are going to take this.

I definitely think, I think you made a very good point, and I think this is one thing that like, yeah, I might watch the movie come up with a different opinion of Helm Especially in this movie, I think, yeah, I said, I did say I think he was too honorable, and I think he made some good points where they did show more complexity than I think I took away from the film, But I would absolutely agree that they I think they needed to earn that death of his more.

The the dun Landers.

But I think they should have spent a decent bit of the movie honestly establishing his legend.

And I do want to mention the character of Wolf as a villain. I felt that he was suitably over

Already because he never listens to you. He never listens to you.

He clearly doesn't care about the Dunlandings at all. And they say that Targ is a full blooded Dunlanding, whereas as a wolf is at most only half and he clearly doesn't care about his his people on that side of the family, and because he's using them as cannon fodder, likes as soon as he tricks them into thinking that there's gold in the fortress when he knows there's not.

Enough, Yeah, I will say that it is kind of refreshing to have a villain that they don't really want you to feel sorry for that he's just he's just a bad guy. Like, I think we need some more of that in stories where it's not gray is ambiguous. They don't they don't want you to sympathize with him. They don't want you to like secretly root for him.

It?

Just it just happens and the story moves on like, yeah, he probably had to come in.

Does he does he in the appendix banish, Well, I believe he does.

Yes, he does.

He does, yes, so so that that part is accurate. But I will say that I did actually really like the way they portrayed him terrorizing his people outside of the Hornberg.

When it was done, it was done really well.

I just wanted more of it and more affected like the people of Rohan too.

Right, But I feel like that did a good job of making him seem like some kind of like preternatural being, like taunting them.

Like the Wraith.

YEA like the way that was done just artistically, the shot it was kind of like his.

Raith like form and the snow was really really good.

But I would say definitely better portrayal than in This is really nitpicky, but in Jackson's Two Towers, when they show a statue of helm hammer hand, he's literally holding a hammer in his hand, so they definitely got that a little bit better.

He does have a warhammer in this fair enough, but I mean that's clue.

That's not what he's known, right, He's called He's called himerhand because his hand is a hammer exactly.

Oh, I will, I will say along the lines of Wolf. I found him very basic. I think that's what I called him. Every every line of dialogue I think I predicted before he said it, except for the one time when he had Harah helped captive and was proposing marriage to her and basically say he'd stop and she says, okay, so if I marry you, and he cuts her off and goes if, And how dare you say if?

Bro, did you think she was going to be enthusiastic.

About marrying you? You're literally holding her the captive.

Was a pretty pretty extravagant proposal.

But other than that, I did I was whispered to my wife right near the end, Thomas, like we were talking about the I was like, why does he keep this general guy around?

He never listens to him. Everything the general says, he does.

The office, he does the op. Yeah, I was like, every single time I felt so bad for that guy.

So I was cracking up.

The other part that I'd be cracking up in that scene was they dropped this massive, you know, siege bridge onto the tower and no sense. Hair goes and and and fights to delay. Okay, fine, Then it went why aren't they burning this? Why aren't they were here? I'm just shooting this with flaming arrows. Maybe they ran out of fire or something, I don't know. Then after Harra does her whole dramatic scene, then they start burning it.

That was the plan the whole time.

So that was one of the things that, you know, it's one of the things if I take the movie seriously, which perhaps I take it too seriously.

I rolled my eyes and groan, which I did. But also it's funny, and you know.

Yeah, I don't think they told that.

I don't think Wolf told the drummer guy on top of that thing what it was going to do, because he lying off at the end, he looked really so prized and terrified that it starts like falling towards the walls.

Like, yeah, I'm not sure, what do you expected it was gonna happen there?

No?

Yeah, I just felt that whole contraption was so silly.

I was like, wait, it's not a normal siege tower. What it extends?

Like, I was wondering what they were gonna do with that, Like there's no wheels, how are they gonna Are they gonna lift.

The whole thing?

Oh, they're just tipping over a giant wooden bridge and hoping it doesn't snap in half when it hits the top.

Of the wall.

Yeah.

Right.

I felt that was very silly, but I was like, you know what whatever.

So, so, one thing that the sam brought up was the fact that they from the very beginning, they're intentionally echoing the Jackson movies.

Yeah.

Now, I mean, did you find that off putting at all, Thomas or did you like that or do you have any thoughts on that?

No?

I expected it, So I was just like, okay, and this takes place in in the same universe. I felt the Hobbit movies did that a lot worse with some of their they're they're grown inducing callbacks but or call forwards because they're prequels.

Whatever.

Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I I I expected them to call back to the the Jackson movies a lot, So I guess I was.

It just kind of rolled off me. I was the when it.

Started to strain credulity for me was the the Gandalf thing at the end. I'm like, you didn't. I'm like, I get why Saraman's here because he literally does take control of Eisengard after these events.

And I think in the in the appendix that yeah, it's.

Went frail off, like at frail Off's Crowning. Believe.

Yeah, And it was cool that they got that they got altered and alternate take from Christopher Lee from the live action movies to it to give him a line of dialogue, although I wasn't expecting it to be just one line of dialogue. And when when he speaks, I look over at my brother and my brother's like, that's all you.

Get if it's laugh But it was a little lane that they used him in a lot of the promotional material. Yeah, but uh.

It strained credulity for me that she gets a letter from Gandalf, Like wait, how did how did he never mind? Like in my head I was trying to figure out ways, like I'm like did I'm like, okay, he can talk to the eagles. Did the eagle tell him all about hera or something? Or I'm like I was just like, but at that point, it was the end of the movie, so I was just like, okay that that this really doesn't make any sense, but whatever.

Yeah, the part about that was like, it's just something about something about Gandalf taking interests in rings, which I don't think he would have been at that point.

Right, Yeah, and his ear his life is timeline.

That was kind of random. Yeah, those kind of random. When they threw the orcs in.

There, yes, that was like that.

Also, why are they there? And why are they suddenly digging for rings?

I thought they were funny, but it's like it didn't make sense.

They were pulling pulling rings off dead bodies like mortar wants rings, were collecting rings as if someone had been the one ring, and just they weren't aware of it. I guess it's early enough. Sorro I hadn't really this is what how long before.

I think he was starting to kind of manifest in Yeah.

I think I think so.

Yeah, but it's just like we're just gonna collect every ring we can, hopefully one of them is the one rings?

How many are going to be in Middle Earth?

Right? Because at that point, I think Saren didn't even know that the ring had been found.

I'm not sure that what yeah.

Right, but he knows that until Golm we're getting out of I don't know.

Yeah, I forget when Saren actually finds out that the one and survived.

Yeah, I don't know the exact timeline. But the easter egg is I'm trying to blame on their real names, but that the Orcs that the voices are Mary and Pippin from the Jackson movies.

Really yeah, yeah, that's funny.

They were there.

The banter of the Orcs did remind me of Shagrat and gore Bag from the books, you know, where they're.

Just like yeah, I mean, I felt like it was fine. It's just the whole placement was weird.

Oh yeah it was.

Yeah.

I was just like one like I thought it was. It was interesting though, that they because the book describes when when Helm is going around, you know, killing people, and they say he's the wraith. In the book, they say he stalked like a snow troll through the camp, and so I thought it was interesting that they think Helm's the supernatural thing yet that there is also a troll there. Like, so they managed to split the difference.

And have both so it was interesting.

Oh.

In terms of Gandalf, though, I couldn't help thinking when when she gets the letter, I was like, like, they almost.

Could have done this would have been terrible.

But if they had done this, like it's almost like Gandalf's almost like Nick Fury at the end, you know, like, yeah, that's what I was thinking.

I'm here to talk to you about the fellowship.

You know, right, is the beginning of the new multiverse building.

Please know?

Oh, this is this is criticism I thought of. I

But no, that's that's true.

Yeah, because in the and.

It does mention in the appendix that Helm goes out to you know, to the Fords of Eisen essentially and loses there while is also being beset on the on the Eastern front by it doesn't really say who.

And and then after he.

Was the church Helmesteep. I think the Coursiers were attacking Gondor at the time.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's why.

I think it's that's why that's why Gondor isn't able to help, because they are being attacked by the Corsairs, So I don't think it's clear if they're being attacked by south Anders, Roger Orcs whoever.

That's why I thought it was it was neat to have the Padrum and the Muma kill in the movie because I was like, Okay, I'm like, these guys are already attacking Gondor at this same time, and I'm like, so they're.

Kind of in the region.

So the fact that Wolf could like hire some to supplement his own forces. I was like, okay, but again, that's another thing where I'm like, I know that because I have this crazy, weird encyclopedic knowledge of these books. And it's like, but I don't know how how other people are gonna they'll seem kind of random that the oliphants are there and all that stuff.

But yeah, and I don't really know if it makes sense having a watch her there, but it's kind of cool scene to watch her eat an oliphant.

Oh yeah, well I thought.

I'm like, okay, I'm like I always assumed there was more than one of those, because I'm like, okay, I'm like, it's one of those nameless things that gets Liker mentioned. So I'm like okay, but it reminded me of like because it was so big that it had trees growing on it and it could fake as like a little island. It immediate, I'm like, that thing's just like a Zelda boss.

That's exactly what I thought of too. Yeah, I'm seeing this.

I'm like, this is like a giant octa rock or something that the giant Octa Rock boss just sitting there in the lake.

Yeah, that's it's immediately what I thought of when I have seen this in Broath of Wild.

That's funny. Yeah, I will say that, I mean this kind of connects that. Generally speaking, I'm okay with most of the echoes to the Jackson movies and that it's part of the Jackson verse first of all, So I mean we can expect that I would be much more critical if, say Rings of Power were, you know, so explicit with some of these things, which I mean, obviously you can't escape Jackson at all if you're doing a Totien adaptation at this point, so it's going to be there.

My biggest issue was when at the battle in front of Ataras, when all they were heros.

Shout out death.

Yeah.

I did not like that at all because it cheapened.

It's for any for like, for like, any normal consumer, which I don't know if anybody but extreme tolkienens went to see this movie anyway, based on its sales, Hummers, but the normal person like it's like, oh, that's just what they're here, charged when they're right into battle. No,

In like the is it the I think it is. The first chapter of the Sistem Early says death.

Is you know, the gift of men, right, and so this is something that they should not fear in that, you know, men have been made to fear death, and that's in part you know how the Neumanorians were corrupted ultimately because they feared death and they saw it immortality, which was not theirs to seek.

And so like, yeah, you have that in.

And the Jackson movies really well without him, because this is an unwittable fight. They're riding to their deaths. They'll accept that. It's not the same thing here. This looks like a very winnable battle at Aderas, So I yeah, it's just like, this is what the row HEREM shot.

No, it's not.

It's so you're you're kind of cheapening that moment.

Yeah, And obviously later when Harris says that she's married to death or whatever, they're trying to pull in that same idea, right, And I agree that that does kind of cheapen it, and it just seems out of place in the moment. Yeah, I mean, any any other thoughts, anything else that you think is worth bringing up either four or against.

I'm sure I have some other thoughts, but not at the moment.

I was just thinking, when when I was watching the movie, like how much of like and they could have leaned into the more of how much a valkyrie type character Harra sort of is, especially in those because the Norse can't seem to decide what valkyrie are. In some stories they are very much kind of semi divine or or numbered among the acer, and in other stories they are

More so, what did you think of the name Harah?

I don't know, I kept one.

I'm like, I'm like, it should be Freya would be more appropriate, but then there's freil Off, so that would get confusing for like casual viewers.

But I'm like, yeah, they could handle Sara and Saramon.

I mean, I mean that's true, although I know people like casuals who like hate that that there's two bad guys that start with S.

In the movie.

But but yeah, like I'm like, Okay, I get why they gave her a name that starts with H because most of the other members of the royal family.

Yeah, her brothers, both her brothers and.

Her and their fathers. Yeah, I'm like, but it's yeah and Pluss.

You know, it just makes me think of hera from Star Wars Rebels.

Maybe think of the Greek goddess that's too.

Yeah, but yeah, it's like, yeah, it just seems like like I've seen too many characters recently with that name in things, So I think it's overused, but I was just like, eh, okay, I name choice could be better.

Although to be fair, in Snorri Charlson's prose eta, he does introduce it by saying that the Seir, the Norse gods were actually originally came from Troy, So that that kind of oh that the sou I mean realistically more to the point now, it just seems culturally out of place.

They always wanted to connect stuff to Troy because in h History of the Kings of Britain right by.

Geoffrey of Monmouth, he makes the ancestors of King Arthur come from Troy.

They were always trying to work Troy.

And stuff, right. The barbarians always want to claim that they are the true inheritors of the Hellenistic tradition. Yeah, yeah, I mean anything else, And I think we covered a lot of the most important topics. But if there's anything else you guys want to bring up before we close it.

Up, I don't think so fair enough.

Well, I enjoyed this conversation. I feel like it was useful, you know, even if we're coming out from slightly different angles. I mean, I think we are at least a pro scheing more or less the same general territory in that. Okay, it's it's better than Rings of Power. Maybe not quite as good as Jackson's original movies, you know, at least on a sliding scale. I like this, and I want more of it, at least more in this direction. Right, That's how I feel kind of coming out of this.

Hey, if we if we left Jackson's movies on a high and then went down a big old slope with the Hobbit movies bottomed out with Rings of Power, and they're just starting up up the back slope, that's that's great. That's if that's the director we'rekiding to keep going in that direction. I'm good with this being a stepping stone.

Yeah, I'm more skeptical of some of the other projects in the Jackson verse coming down.

I don't how I feel about Hunt for Gollum.

Yeah, very skeptical, very skeptical.

I mean, I like that Andy Serkis is directing, but I'm just I'm I'm very skeptical of that project.

Don't need any more about Gollum. His story is told and done.

And I mean, if it focuses on Aragorn, if you get a good actor to play him.

I can't imagine BIGL. Mortenson is going to do it.

Well, apparently he's been given a pretty big offer.

Yeah, I don't know how that's going to happen. But anyhow, DHM the entire time, you know, if the focus is on Aragorn, and I'm more than happy to see you know, the story of Aragorn, especially like you know the things he references, you know how he and he and you know, the rangers like kept lands like the Shy are safe.

There's lots you can do there. You have a lot of free reign there. But I don't think Gollam is a character that needs more screen time.

Yeah, I think that's fair. Just be interested to see kind of what plays out there.

And I do want more more animated Lord of the Rings stuff please, Like, you know, I feel like that's.

A medium, which you know.

It just for fantasy in general, is a great medium of animation. And I just think that, you know, there's there's a lot of room to and a lot of great Tolkien stories that can be adapted by means of animation, and I just I want more of that. But I I just hope that you know, they don't take the the at least initial, you know, underperforming of this movie to be like, oh, we should never do anything like this again.

I'm like, yeah, I do worry a little bit about that, the fact that doesn't seem to be performing very well, you know, if.

That in America it is.

Yeah, but no, Andrew, you said you haven't really watched much anime or animation animated shows at all.

Yeah, I just not something I tend to be. I mean, I don't watch a lot of anything anymore really just for times sake. But yeah, I've just never been super drawn to animation, at least not as an adult.

Well, let me make one recommendation. This is a show I will recommend to literally everybody. It's Avatar The Last Airbender. Now this this, this is the original animated show. There was a live action remake the first season anyway, that came out on Netflix. It' stuff very good.

There was also a.

Movie that came out in too Is in ten just called The Last Airbender, which is horrible. But the original animated show is one of the most edifying and inspiring.

Stories I've watched ever.

Yeah, it's it's I totally agree with that.

It's in like my top you know, fictional universes or fictional stories. Ever, like you know, it ranks extremely high.

Yeah.

Yeah, I will say, if nothing else, this movie has opened me up to that that that avenue, and so I'm definitely more open to that than I probably was before. So maybe maybe that's a win. If if nothing else, yeah, absolutely all right. Cool, Well, I guess we can go ahead and wrap it there. I appreciate this conversation. Thanks again, Thomas and Sam for joining me.

Yeah, thank you so much. This has been This is an absolute blast.

Yeah, thank you as always, Andrew, this has been terrific.

Yeah, absolutely all right, So thank you for listening to this conversation. I hope that you found this as useful as I did, and I would love to hear your thoughts. If you've seen the movie, and I think that you should, you should give it a fair shake, go in with an open mind, see what you think. Then I would love to hear your thoughts. You can send me a message or give me a comment some irrelevant on x over at andrew In Snyder. You can email me at

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