Alone. Welcome to Mythic Mind. We pursue wisdom in the past between primary and secondary world. I'm your host, Danger Snyder, and I am always grateful for your company. All right, So we are finally returning to our series on Tolkien's Tales from the Perilous Realm, as I discussed Roverandum with my first returning guest, Thomas Selernow. But before we get to that, I
have some exciting updates for you. Starting the late spring or early summer of twenty twenty four, I'm going to be offering a couple of public courses based on early interest. One course will be Life, Death and Meaning with Beowulf and Boethius. The other will be on the fiction and philosophy of C. S. Lewis, which will be followed with a course on Tolkien. The Lewis course has, by a significant margin, received the most support, and
so I'm giving that one priority right now. The Life, Death and Meaning course is related to a course that I'm teaching on campus next semester, so that will come together naturally enough alongside my university work, and as it does so I'll provide some updates then. So for now I want to particularly advertise the Lewis course. A lot of grounds going to be covered in this twelve
week study as we read and discuss the following. First, the Ransom Trilogy, sometimes referred to as the Space Trilogy, which includes Out of the Silent Planet Paralandra and That Hideous Strength. Now Parilandra in That Hideous Strength say much about the role of the demonic and the nature of evil, and so between those two will be doing screw Tape letters. This sub series on the power
in the mind of evil alone would be worth the study. And next we're going to go to Till We Have Faces, which is one of my all time favorite novels. After that we're going to do The Great Divorce, and then conclude with the entire Narnia series. And here's some rationale for the sequence. The Ransom Trilogy is fairly long and heavy and so provides a strong foundation
for laying out some of Lewis's most important philosophical and theological positions. And the demonic plays a significant role in Peralandra in That Hideous Strength, and so placing screw tape between them makes for pretty incredible study on evil. Until we Have Faces take certain themes that were more on the nose in Ransom and presents them more symbolically and existentially, resulting in a deeper understanding. The Great Divorce continues
this existential theme, examining the eternal trajectories of our current life orientations. And Narnia is certainly the easiest to read, but it is saturated with Lewis's philosophy for those who have the eyes to see it, and after going through the heavier stories, Narnia gains more weight. As with Aslan himself, you will find that Narnia grows with you. And so what will the study look like? Well, each week I will post videos exclusively provided for this study that
are related to the readings. There will also be scheduled live discussions for anyone who's able to attend and is interested in doing so, and there will be an optional discord server so that we can all chat about the reading together as we go. So far, I've had about fifty people say they would be likely to enroll, and so, if nothing else, this study will provide an incredible opportunity to read through these incredible stories with a vibrant community built around
it. Also, each week I will provide some nothing like required assignments, but some optional prompts that will lead you to create maybe a short reflection post, maybe a recording. You know, I'm going to present some options for
you. That way, you can choose your own adventure and make it as meaningful as you want to and engage in whatever level you want to anything that you pre as long as you give me consent, I will publish through the Mythic Mind outlets, whether it be through our substack, whether it be through our podcast, while of course giving you full attribution and also sending audience your way if you have any personal platforms for your own and so, this is
one way that you can kind of work with the Mythic Mind community in a way that may also help your own platforms. But like I said, I won't post anything publicly without your consent first. Now, if this sounds like a worthwhile adventure and you would like more information, please let me know. If you haven't already done so, you can send me a message on Twitter at andrew In Snyder, or you can email me at mythicmindpodcast at gmail dot
com. Express interest doesn't mean obligation, and so please let me know if you think you would like to participate. Now, before we get into the main topic today, I need to say thank you to all of my patrons in the Mythic Mind Fellowship. Your support helps me to keep doing what I'm doing and to branch out into doing more. And so many thanks to Mark, Nick, Paul, Aaron, Aaron, Andrew Brandon, Emmy Harrison, Jamie Ian, Jocelyn Joshua, Lauren Matthew and all my other patrons as well,
and a special shout out to Paul, my latest patron. Now, if you would like to join the Mythic Mind Fellowship to support my work, join our exclusive discord and gain access to the other perks of this network, you can head over to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. Now for the main course of today's episode, I'm glad to welcome back to the show Thomas
Sellerno, who was previously here for the episode on Leaf by Nicol. We were originally supposed to talk back in August or something like that, but I had to push it off a few times for various reasons, and so Thomas, thanks again for bearing with me. Now. As a reminder, Thomas Sellerno is a children's author. He's a freelance writer and a podcaster from Long Island. His writing has been featured in two nonfiction anthologies, Tolkien and Faith
and the Christ Bearer, both published by Voyage Comics. He's also a host on the Secrets of Middle Earth podcast on the star Quest Network. Thomas has a Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology from Stonybrook University, and you can follow more of his work on his substock newsletter called Page Turning. And he's gonna talk a bit more about what he's been up to during our conversation, and so now let's go ahead and get to it, all right, So like to
go ahead and welcome back to the Mythic Mind podcast. My first repeat guest, Thomas Lerno. So welcome aboard. Hey Andrew, it's great to be back, so Phyllisen, what have you been doing since last time, or at least, what's a few things that you've been working on? Oh since last time? Oh? Geez, wow, yeah, a lot. My first book is actually currently in the process of going through revisions. I wrote
a middle grade nonfiction book. I can't say much more than that now because it hasn't been officially announced, but I'm expecting to go through probably a third and final round of revisions pretty soon, and currently I started a second kid's book, and in facts, that's a lot of what I'm doing now. I've found that I really have a passion of writing for children, which is kind of apropos of the book we're going to be talking about today. But
I've been doing a lot of that. I've been doing a lot of podcasting with the Starquest Network or SQPN. I'm on their Secrets of Middle Earth, which is a monthly show that we do, and I'm also on the Secrets of Movies and TV shows. I'm a regular host there and I've just started being on the Secrets of Star Wars. I was on for a lot of
the Ahsoka episodes that we reviewed. But yes, I'm podcasting. I'm still writing, you know, freelance articles, but now I'm diving into my new found passion for writing for kids, which it It's so cool because it's something I avoided and people told me i'd be good at but I'm like, no, no, I really wouldn't be any good at that. And then once I got fed up of hearing people tell me to do it, and I just started doing it, and I'm like, this is great. I don't
want to stop. So, yeah, I think a lot of times vocation is discovered through compulsion. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah, and I do feel it's a vocation in the sense that I'm I feel like I'm being called to do this because now I have more ideas for kids books than I know what to do with. Actually, the other day I just typed up my master list of ideas, so I could potentially be at this for a
while. So which is I understand that I have an ever growing list of books I want to write, but who knows if I ever will Yeah,
yeah, I understand entirely. But yeah, so speaking of kids books, you know, we're here to talk about Reverendum, which you know I was just discussing with you is very different than even the other stories in the Perils Realm collection, you know, when you're looking at you know, leaf by Niggle, which is really about as close to autobiography as we get from Tolkien, right, And so there's a lot to mind there for theology and philosophy in his own life. And you know, even I think Farmer Giles and
until he'd drawn a blink here, oh Smith of wuten Major. Yeah, yeah, that's where I was going I feel like there's a there's a lot
to really mind there. But now, Reverendom, I think it's Quintessentially, it's a children's story, right, right, And in fact, I love the kind of fatherly anecdote we get here when we talk about how it came about to begin with, right, Not unlike a lot of his other stories, it began as simply a father telling a story to his child, because you know, Michael Tolkien had he had lost his toy dog, and so he was distraught, and so then told gives him the story about how his
toy dog was really a real dog who you know, became a toy and eventually became real again, and that's kind of how I found its freedom. And so he was really just spinning the story out to provide solace and enchantment for his kid's loss. And I love that because as when I was a kid, I also went through the trauma of losing a beloved toy, so I totally understand, you know, and my parents, like my parents actually went through an odyssey essentially to find me a replacement because it was a toy
that wasn't even in production anymore. And this was the days before eBay, when you couldn't just go online and look up whatever vintage toy you wanted, you know, so they had to get they had to we live in New York, they had to drive to Connecticut to the factory to get like one of the last like coming off the assembly lines. I understand that, you know, parents, you know, they really want to console their kid when they lose a beloved toy. And and that's just what I I. I
love that that Tolkien was such a great dad. I I recently with with Christmas coming up in a few months, I finally bought myself a copy of The Father Christmas Letters. I've read them before, but and I I the copy I used to have I gifted to my little cousins, but now I have my own copy again. And it's just He's man. Tolkien was just such a great dad, And I love that about him. I love that he went through the trouble to write this whole adventure for you know, for
his son's toy dog like that. That's just wonderful. And it's it's funny, like did I think we were We've been planning this episode for a while, and we were planning it even before I finally got it into my veins to write kid stories. So I see kind of providence working here. And as I've been thinking about this story, because we were talking before we started recording, like where are we gonna go with this? I mean, and it is called Rover Random. A lot of random things happen in it,
but I think there's almost kind of a theme. I don't know if this is a stretch, but maybe a theme of providence in the story, because yeah, like seemingly random things happened to Rover, but it all kind of works out in the end. And I feel like that's a good metaphor for life. A lot of things that happened to us seem to be awfully random, but in the end, they just kind of work out most of the time in God's providence, whether in this world or the next. And so
that's just such an inspiring thought. I don't know if Tolkien had that in mind when he was writing the story, but that's what I've gotten out of it, just true thinking on it. Yeah, I mean I think that we asked what is it that Tolkien intended? I mean, whether talking about Rover Random or Lord of the Rings. I mean, first and foremost, he's obviously intending on telling a good story, right right. However, what it means for something be a good story is it has some kind of semblance
to reality. And so obviously we see his mind playing out in these stories. And so I don't think it's at all a stretch to say that there is a theme of providence here simply because there's a theme of providence working in
Tolkien's head, right yeah. And Lord of the Rings, you know, like and and throughout his whole legendarium, there's that theme, so you yeah, you can see it even in his other works, right, I mean, you know the iconic you know scene or Danoff is explaining how the Ring came to Frodo through you know, they're seemingly disconnected, seemingly random events, and really, you know, there was a deeper power at work, or like, you know, even what's that famous line from Gandalf Race is a
chance meeting such as we say in Middle Earth? You know, like in Middle Earth we say it's a chance meeting. But from the perspective of Eru Louvitar, nothing is left to chance. Right in right now, I'm teaching a medieval philosophy course on campus and we're reading Boethi is the Constellation of Philosophy right now, which it's one of my favorite texts. I mean, I've
read it probably once a year for the last five years or so. And you know, Boothys makes the point that what we call fortune, or what we call luck or even fate really is more of an admission of our ignorance about the chain of events behind the scene than it does anything else. Right, there's no such thing as luck. We call something luck or fortune simply because we don't understand the chain of events that let it to take place, right, Yeah, exactly, as Obi Wan Kenobi would say, in my
experience, there's no such thing as luck exactly. Okay, So Rover random, So it starts off where okay, Rover the dog he's playing with this ball gets away from him, and then the wizard is this one art Exerk sees thee Yeah, as like a history follows, Like wait, is that like a Persian emperor or something? Right, which I haven't quite been I'll figure out the connection there if you have any insight. I don't know.
Oh yeah, okay, it almost seemed very like that seemed less that name choice seemed less Tolkien and Mora Lewis, if that makes sense, right, You know, we're just seemingly like some historical reference that doesn't quite seem to fit, right, So fair enough, okay, So art Exerk sees the Wizard, he picks up the ball, and it's since that initially the Wizard was actually gonna potentially do something nice for Rover. Maybe he turned into some
kind of treat or something. But Rover instantly asserts himself and basically starts growling to get his ball back, which we're told that that's kind of how things start to go south, that it's because he didn't say pleased to the Wizard, that this curse is going to befall him, and he ruins the Wizard's trousers, which is like a recurring thing that they always come back to.
He's very bent out of shape about that, right, And so the Wizard, I mean, understandably a little bit irritated, curses Rover and turns him into a toy dog, I like a Rover's first thought is like, how am I gonna deal with the cat now that I'm a toy? Right?
Fair enough that the power structure has been altered, Yeah, and so I didn't think it's kind of interesting that there is this emphasis on the fact that it's because he instantly tried to assert himself through his growls, through biting the wizard's trousers, that he specifically didn't say please to the wizard, that he
turned into a toy. And so we kind of get this idea in this childish form that we see even in Lord of the Rings, that the more that you assert yourself in the world, the more you kind of fall into the shadow, right, you kind of become less real. He loses his agency after asserting his agency, he becomes a toy, can't move, like he complains later when he's at the Little Boy's house that he has to struggle
just to move like a fraction of an inch. So it's that it's it's that interesting idea that the more we self assert the actually more restrictions that are almost kind of put on us, right that, you know, the more that you kind of grasp at power, the more that power grasp at you, and the less agency that you actually have, which very much ties into some of the Boethius conversations I'm having, but I won't go too far off
track with that. You can't go wrong with Boetheus. Though, no, you cannot go wrong with Boetheus. But I mean, all right, so I guess I'll go there. In class, we just finished going over book four where Boetheus is talking to Lady Philosophy and his imprisonment, and he brings up the problem that's addressed in scripture and really throughout Christian experience, why is
it that the wicked seem to prosper well the righteous seem to suffer? And Lady Philosophy's response to that is basically that the wicked actually are never prospers because even if they seem to have finite goods in their hands, they are living shatter realities. They're not fulfilling the form of what it fundamentally means to be human. And so in that case, their apparent fortune could actually be a curse and kind of advancing their movement away from being and so yes, leading
them away from what they really need. Yeah, yeah, I remember listening to a homily once where a bishop had put it in very similar terms, where like, when you see the wicked appearing to prosper and with all these material goods, you know, have you ever stopped to think that God is not blessing them, he may be punishing them by giving them all of this you know, worldly wealth, because they're it's actually leading them further away from
him. So in a sense, they're being punished by all their goods. Right. And so that's the conclusion that both Yas gets here through his contemplation, is that the wicked, regardless of what fortune befalls their way, whether they win the lottery or go bankrupt, your fortune is working against them.
But then the same thing, there is no bad fortune for the good because you know, if you are based in goodness, if you are ultimately reflecting the image of God and looking toward the beatific vision, then you are fulfilling your form. And so finite goods, if you have them, you'll steward them, use them well. And if you don't have them, well,
maybe you'll become even more rooted in goodness. Yeah, And that's interesting because Rover's whole experience here is kind of his journey toward becoming a good dog. Correct. You know, he starts out as a naughty dog, as a bad dog, you know, and he becomes even less of a dog when he's transformed into a toy, you know, his and it's his whole journey towards back, not only to becoming a real dog, but a real dog who is a good dog. And he kind of has to learn to be
a good dog while he's still a toy, which is is interesting. Yeah, it's his whole journey towards reality and goodness. Yeah, I mean, along similar lines. I've also been going through revisiting Narnia recently, which I hadn't done for decades. Probably I have to, I have to reread those I was going through. Uh. I just finished up Voyage of the Dawn
Tredder, where Eustace this useless kid. One of the best lines from Lewis comes from right the opening of Dawn Tretder, where it says, you know, there once was a boy named Eustace Scrub and he almost deserved it.
Quintessential Lewis. This is terrible, miserable, no good kid gets turned into a dragon, and that's actually what causes him to become a real boy, essentially right to recognize that the dragon skin is kind of who he's been all along, and it causes him to then you're for something better, which Asla unfortunately provides for him. But it's sometimes the work of Fairyland is to help you to see you yourself for what you are, with the hope that you
can then move in a better direction. Right. I mean, that's you know Tolkien's difference between magic and enchantment, right that. You know, magic itself is kind of artificial enterprise, whereas real enchantment brings out the good qualities, the kind of what something was all always meant to be. Right,
Yeah, it's it's making something more real and not artificial. Right. And so he and of course Roper becomes artificial, He becomes a toalk, correct and he kind of realizes that he was always artificial, at least in the
way that he was living. One thing I also noticed in you as I'm going through Narnia and now looking at this, you know, in when Tolkien's character is going to enter into the realm of fairy, the perilous realm, right when they start to enter into this broader reality and they're faced with the discovery of who they are and who they're called to be. In Narnia and Lewis's writing, there's always some kind of portal, whether it be a wardrobe
or you know, the painting or whatever else. There's some kind of portal that brings them into faery, whereas in Tolkien stories they just kind of walk into fairyland. It's sort of part of the reality. It's more seamless, which you know, again, this is probably quintessential in Smith and Wooton Major right, where he literally walks into the fairy land. Right, there's no real portal or entry point. It's not really clear how he gets there.
And that's why I like to look at Tolkien as something of an existentialist, right in that the perilous realm, you know, it's where we, as he says in non fairy stories, it's kind of where we find the pathway between heaven and hell and set our course. And so I think that's sort of a fundamental reality of living as a human, where you know, we
enter into those points where suddenly we're part of a bigger story. Maybe it's because of whatever our support structure is has sort of fallen apart, and then we're left to kind of look out at the abyss and figure out who it is that we are. I don't know, I kind of like Tolkien's model of fairy landed. The perilous realm is something that you just kind of walk into rather than necessarily being a firm transition portal way, right, yeah,
less of a stark contrast. I think they both have their strengths in terms of being like a storytelling device, but Tolkien is definitely I think, tapping into the idea of more that even the seemingly mundane things and events in our lives can have that aspect of fairy right. That's why I think on on fairy stories. You know, he talks about how you know all things, and you know, ultimately even man can enter into fairyland, you know,
when they are properly enchanted. Right. Yeah, I'm losing the beauty of the quote, but I think you know where I'm going with that. No, Yeah, And another one of my favorite authors really brings this out. Although largely an author of science fiction, Ray Bradbury, really had a talent for bringing out the kind of enchantment in mundane experiences and mundane objects in his
stories. I mean, he like, if you've ever read the story that the Sound of Summer Running, which is this beautiful peon to tennis shoes like a kid with a new pair of tennis shoes, which to him is just the greatest thing in the world and he sees like the wonder and a fresh new pair of shoes. He thinks he can do anything once he has these shoes, and the guy who who runs the local shoe store is just like,
what are you talking about? And like and the kid kind of re enchants him because he's been sort of since he works with shoes all the time, he's become sort of blinded to the magic of getting a new pair of shoes, and seeing the reaction of this kid reawakens that enchantment in the older
man. And it's just one of my favorite short stories ever. And I feel like that's that's kind of Tolkien does a similar thing, which in terms of like seeing the world through this lens of enchantment, you'll never look at the world the same way again. Yeah, and I know that I wish I could rear the exact quote, but Chesterton says something very similar where he says that, you know, the the kid who enters into the enchanted forest
doesn't lose the mundane forest. The mundane for is, just gains its sense of enchantment, right yeah, almost becomes its true self as a forest right right now. Really along the same lines we've been talking about here Rover, he's turned into a toy and finds himself in a toy store right among other natural toys, and you know, he's concerned about the fact that he can't really move like he wants to, and the toys respond by saying, what do you want to move for? They say, we don't. It's more
comfortable standing still and thinking of nothing. I love that the perspective of because to a toy, that's perfectly natural, right, why would you want to move? Even like, oh, where is that thing? Later where he's he's he's talking to the shrimp in the bag h And it's so depressing. It ends on kind of a sour node. I don't have the actual like bit in front of me, but like, yeah, he just has these
encounters with all these different beings. I guess, just like you know, he starts to see how what kind of a jerk he is actually right through like the interaction with these other creatures and speaking of like of seemingly mundane objects that we see all the time that Tolkien kind of re enchants is the moon because I don't know if that's jumping a bit too far ahead, Yeah it
is. We've skipped over the sand Wizard, So I guess, right, I mean, I don't know how much there is to say there, but yeah, so he encounters this sand Wizard, who at least has it within his power to turn Rover into a real dog but still toy size. Right, Yeah, he kind of does it halfway. He's sort of a real dog again, but he's you know, he's tiny, right, and so I guess that's one step closer to becoming who he is. And so he
becomes tiny. And then the Wizard basically after some dialogue and some exchange of various words, he sends him off to the moon. And so this bird carries him across the pathway that the you know, moon is reflecting on the water, which I think is just kind of a neat device. Yeah, that the moonbeams coming across the water, and that itself is the pathway that leads to the moon, you know, over the horizon, right, and he kind of doesn't he kind of make an oblique reference to vaalenor yeah.
Oh, and I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me. Talk Yeah, yeah, that that comes a little bit later, but yeah, ok, yeah, oh right, when when he's with the whale. That's when, right who by the way, since I mean jumping her head a little bit, Yeah, he's with the whale. I think Owen I may think mispronouncing it. But one thing that's kind of interesting is Ewin. In the early drafts of the Cimmarillian, Owen was actually a vassal of Olmo. Oh okay,
so there is a direct connection here. And so you know, as a vassal of Olmo, he brings Rover, you know, right to the borders of Vallenor and then makes the point, you know, if I don't turn around now, I'm really going to catch it, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm not supposed to be here, right. I love those little connections we get occasionally in his non legendarium stories to the Legendarium. To me,
that's the ultimate crossover. I mean, you know, say what you will about Marvel, but for me, the Tolkien crossovers are more exciting. I remember reading a quote from Tolkien where he says something to the effect of I kept farmer Giles out of the Legendarium, only with difficulty, right, I mean the problem is that Tolkien he lived in Middle Earth, right, So how do you set yourself out of it, and so even in Rover
Random we get these connections, these direct references now to Lessendarium. And of course that the Man in the Moon, you know, it kind of reminds me of the of the proto song that the Man in the Moon. What is it the Man in the Moon slept in too late or something is the name of the song, I think, right, And so it's connected a proto song, and it's also connected to a fuller song in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, right, yeah, and so they are all of these connections
kind of woven throughout his writings. So yeah, So he goes to the moon where he encounters the Man in the Moon and Rover r another dog named Rover who claims to be the first dog ever named Rover, but he may be exaggerating, correct, as will the next Rover, right yeah, Okay, So he encounters this moondog who's able to fly around, and short bit later, our Rover is able to fly around like the moondog. He gets this enchantment put on him, and so they fly around going on little dog
adventures, terrorizing little creatures and doing what dogs do. They get in trouble with the dragon, they get in trouble with the dragon. In fact, pretty significant dragon. Right, this is the white Dragon of England. Oh you know what, I never even made that connection. Yeah, yeahs describes as a white dragon. Yeah right, And there's one brief passing reference regarding the dragon to some connection to Merlin. Oh they make a passing, right
because And it's funny because I'm just starting to discover the Arthur mythos. I mean it through osmosis, you know, and seeing the sword and the Stone
as a kid. I've got the base down, but I'm just starting to dig into like the deep parts of the archemist says, and yeah, like the found One of the foundational Merlin stories is is the Tower of Vortigern where you have the red dragon and the white that he prophesies that if you look underneath this tower you will find a red dragon and a white dragon you're fighting, right yeah. And the red dragon is pre Anglo Saxon Britain, right, that's what it correct, And the white is the Anglo Saxons, right,
correct. And so I mean naturally Talkiing's going to attach himself to the white dragon, right uh. And so we're told that this is that dragon and In fact, we're also told that all white dragons come from the moon.
And it's kind of this phrasing like as everybody knows, as everybody knows, Yeah, that he's very much in his like his narrator in roverandom is is more like his narrator in the Hobbit and else makes these self referential things or you know, like these sort of yeah, humorous remarks, right, which I mean, of course, hobit was also a story that he told
his kids, right exactly. Yeah, I don't think it's interesting that on the moon we're told that the plants emit a song that basically the plants themselves are singing, which I mean, naturally to me ties into Tolkien Smith. It's the idea that there is a music kind of at the heart of being right, right, yeah, I mean, getting back the Adventures of Tom Bombadil that, like, you know, that's one of you know, and
I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this. That he he everywhere he goes, he's singing, and even when he's not singing, he seems
to talk. I'm no poet or anything, but he seems to talk in a meter even when he's not technically singing, and I feel like kind of represents in some sort of way just being like, right, he's not God or ever Erruluvatar or anything like that, I don't think, but he he just seems to represent, like, you know, Arta as being you know, and and he he makes it very plain to the Hobbits that him running
around and singing all the time is very important. Right. He's like, I've got things to do, my making and my singing, my talking and my walking, and that's that is super important, more important than anything they'll be doing. Right. It's like, just through his vocalizations, he's bringing things into order how they should be. That's how he stops old man Willow.
He basically turns him back into a tree, and trees don't eat hobbits, right, Yeah, And in that way, he's he's like a a prelapsarian figure because, like Adam for the Fall, he brings things into order, right, ordering the world. He gives things names, you know, speech is a very important part of what he's doing. Whatever he says seems
to come into being right. And that's one theory I've heard about Bombadil, that he's basically unfallen man, in which I mean, I don't think there's any one thing that Tom Bombadel is, but I think that's definitely one aspect, one way of understanding him. And so the idea of the song is important, and that of course ties into medieval and classical cosmology, the idea that there is a harmony to the cosmos to the point where you know,
it even maps out mathematically to song exactly. And so this idea that there is a basic harmony, not even just in a metaphorical sense, but there's a kind of literal harmonization points to I think the essential goodness of being, and that the harm and the the the log gossip creation. Yeah, I remember reading I wish I remember the name of this book, but I read a portal fantasy once where and it was written for like middle grade or teen
readers. That when the when the main character can sort of go between worlds, the space between the worlds as he's going through there, the kind of space between spaces, it's seemingly like music, like that's it. It's it like he sees things, but the what what what he's what? The visualization
of it is less important than what he hears. That like the the whole fabric of reality is music mysteriously and that's never explained, but I always thought it was beautiful, and gosh, I wish I remember the name of that book now, but but I always thought that that was a beautiful way of you know, think the And it was very told key that there's kind of
music at the heart of reality. Right. It's the idea that beauty and being go hand in hand, that the true, the good, and beautiful find their unity in one and that that then is extends throughout the very fibers
of the cosmos. And it was maybe when you go into the heavens, like into the moon, that becomes more clear, right, Yeah, And what is the moon was always seen as kind of a transitional state in medieval cosmology, right, because, like, you know, it was believed that you know, sub lunar everything changes, you know, and that the sort of spheres that were over and above the moon were you know, that made
of quintessence. They never changed, you know. But the moon was sort of a transitional state because people had always been able to see the craters and imperfections on the surface of the moon, so they're like, oh, so things have here to change and run down there, but it also emits this radiance, so it's kind of like this halfway point and the moon sort of forms. It just occurred to me almost the halfway point of Roverandom's story.
I mean, even long lines you were just describing about the transitional point of the Moon. I mean there's a light side on the dark side, and the moon itself changes, it goes through phases. Oh. In even connected this even more. I mean it's the dragon that we were talking about, which, of course dragons typically symbolize the chaotic, and the dragon lived right on the border point between the light and the dark. That is interesting. Yeah. In fact, we're told that he was in that part of the
moon where things tend to be forgotten, right yeah. Yeah, And oh like Lewis was very interested in this too, because I will never forgive him for this. In the Third Space Trilogy book, he mentions all this cool stuff that is going on on the Moon, but we never get to see it, and I'm like, come on, man, he talks about this huge battle going on on the Moon. I'm like, why didn't you set the book there right right right? I remember even in no it was in
out of the side of the planet. On the way back, they talk about the moon being some kind of denizen of the enemy, nothing mentioned about
in Perilandra. But then in that hitty Strength, Yeah, there is this discussion of this battle and yeah, it's all kind of nebulous and I don't know, right, and I think the battle was going on in the same place, that sort of borderland between the light and the dark side of the moon, and I'm like, wait, like Lewis, you could have done a whole book of that, right, And of course things get more interesting because they they end up a really effective scene where the man in the moon
takes him down that sort of endless stare way tunnel through the moon to like to the this the moon is revealed as a place where children's dreams are kind of made reality, where children go when they sleep, right, which kind of interesting. I don't know what to make of that. Per se. Yeah, it's almost like a neverland kind of place, almost, right,
except they don't stay, you know, they don't become lost boys. They go back when they wake up, right, And so I mean, I don't know if that kind of connects to what we're talking about about the moon being some kind of vague transitory halfway place right where land right, And it's not it's not heaven where you go where you die, but it's a place you go when you sleep, which is you know, people have traditionally thought of it as like a kind of the little death, you know, right,
And I did love the quote, and I'll struck where it is. But Robert asked the old the uh Man of the Moon. Do dreams come
true? And he responds by saying, not all, but some do, but never in the way that you think that they will, right, Yeah, And that that goes back to what I was kind of saying at the beginning about like providence, because that's something I've seen in my own life where you know, dreams and aspirations that I've had since I was a kid, they come true, but never in the way that I envisioned them as a
kid. And it's and then and it's all the way that they happen is often for the better than what I imagined as a kid, even though sometimes like it's less grand than what I imagine, but it's actually better, you know, And even if it's not permanent, if it's just you know, because like every kid has that dream where it's like they want to be x, you know, whether it's a baseball player or an astronaut or whatever it
is. You know, and you have that dream, and I've seen, you know, childhood dreams at least partially fulfilled in my life, but definitely not the way I imagine them as a little boy, but I own. But as a mature adult, you see, Oh, it was better that way. And God still had in mind fulfilling those dreams, but in a better way than you imagined it, in a way that helps you towards maturity.
Right. I think that we all have various longings and desires that put into the right shape, can lead us in the general direction that we're meant to go. But why should we at all expect that our finite little minds can actually understand what is good for us and what we should be doing. Right? Yeah, yeah, And I've noticed that in my prayer life.
One of the things you learn as you you know, develop a consistent prayer life is that eventually you will stop telling God what's best for him to do, and you start your will starts to become more conformed to Okay, I want you to actualize in my life what's best for me right, you start giving more and more control over to him, and you stop saying, now, look God, here are my plans. Okay, I've got this all figured out. You know. It's it's very you know, it's very simple.
You just have to make sure this, this, and this happens, you know. And there's the old saw that you know, if you want to make God laugh, just tell them what your plans are. You know. But a lot of our you know, prayers are please do this for me, please make this happen. I've just found that the more I pray consistently, the more those prayers become no, you know, make what's best happen, not necessarily what I want, but just what's best. Right.
Ultimately, an image doesn't have agency over that which it images, right, Yeah, So, I mean going back to boetheis his one of his ongoing points is that, you know, we are to hold our fortune in an open hand and simply embrace providence. And sometimes things will come into our hands that provide what we are inclined to call happiness. Sometimes it won't, but nonetheless we hold fortune in an open hand, and that hand itself has firmly
rested on top of providence. All right. So Rover he gets off the moon, he encounters the sand Wizard again, who basically reaffirms he can't overturn art Exerxy's curse altogether. And so now art Exerxis has taken up residence in the ocean, right, he's he's given an acronym the PAM right take Atlantic Magician. And so this is when I think, this is when he hops aboard the whale initially who comes to to bring him to art exert seas. Uh, he was taking up residents amongst the mur people. In fact,
I even think he took a wife from the murphy. Yes, yeah, he's got a mermaid wife now. Yeah, and you know he sees himself as you know, far too busy to deal with little trifles now like Rover, right, he's far too important. Yeah, And so Rover starts to go on these little misadventors with the Rover of the Sea, this murd dog.
Yeah. There there's always new rovers that he meets. Yeah. It's kind of interesting that despite their names, the Rover of the Sea and the Rover of the Moon are both kind of fixed where they are right there, yeah, right, they they rove around as much as they can in their little in their in their sort of sphere of influence, like yes, in the moon or under the sea, but they can't leave those states because Sea Rover is a mird dog. He can't leave and live the life of a
dog on the land. And while moon Rover was initially he says, a dog from Earth, he appears just so tied to the moon now that I don't think he would even think of leaving, Whereas Referendum is able to move in and out of these different realities, perhaps in part because he doesn't belonged to them, right, Yeah, it's not his nature to be there, so he right kind of move in and out, whereas like the other rovers have kind of found their place, you know, and he's still wandering.
He hasn't found that place where he's most himself. Whereas our Rover he's almost going through a divine comedy of sorts, right, you know what he kind of is, yeah, because he's going all to these different regions. He usually has a guide, right things, So he's going up to the heavens, he's going down to the depths. I'm not trying to draw an exact parallel, but I think there are can you imagine. Yeah, there's so much potential, come on talking, So okay, So it goes off of
these misadventures. Our e Jerxys is totally ignoring him. He's far too important now. And this is when he does go on a little venture with the whale to the borders of Elvin Holme, right, which I initially read this right off of my first read of the Civil Million, and so that was really exciting, yea, the very very cool reference. Yeah. Now eventually this whirlwind kicks up that ar Jerxy is to deal with, which we find out is now a sea serpent, and so we still have this dragon connection
yep. Ward, And I mean that's you know, I just finished reading because now now I'm reading kids books all the time to get inspiration. And I recently read John Ronald's Dragons, which is a very lovely picture book biography of Tolkien and about his love for dragons and how they kind of inspired a lot of his stories in his imagination. So it's like, yeah, he
always says dragons on the mind. I know. In the introduction here, Tom Shippy says that there's some connection here between the Sea Serpent and the Midguard Serpent that ultimately is going to consume Thor in the end, right, Yeah, and so I was thinking maybe of like Leviathan, yes, like the biblical yes, right, and that's naturally where my mind probably go as well.
But we get these hints that even though we're looking at this little children story, you know, they're these shadows of these historical and mythical realities that
are just on the border here. In fact, shipp he goes on to say that these ideas that there is this bigger, potentially darker, certainly more terrifying and awesome reality on the borders, you know, is not unlike what Tolkien does in the Hobbit with you've got to talk of the necromancer who's never really identified or they mentioned the minds of Maria in the Hobbit, right, and so it's a children's story that he's not gonna make too dark. However,
there is that darkness right on the border. So Artie Jersey he comes to try to stop the serpent, who's I guess starting to wake up, and so he's spinning up this whirlwind. But as everybody complains, like it's artist fault, right, they all think it's his fault, so he kind of but grudgingly goes to contracts some kind of magic that's gonna stop this ongoing.
But Rover comes up behind him and uh sees this as his chance to get back at him for not you know, fixing his curse, and so he bites one of the sharks that is leading the Wizard's chariot, so that that shark bites another shark, that bites another shark, and then they take off until finally one of them bites the serpent. Right, and so we see rovers quest for revenge has a chain reaction, and then we're told that the sea monster, the serpent, it finally wakes up but decides not to
do anything. Yeah, it's just like it rolls over and goes back to bed. Basically, right, that's the end of that. But it kind of an anti climax, but I think it works in the as a comedic moment. Yeah, right, because ultimately the point wasn't the serpent. The point was the interactions between Rover and the doll or the Wizard. And so by this point, the people that people are so fed up with Art exersise.
You know, he's got all this pomp and circumstances about him, but they feel like he hasn't really done anything good, and so they give him the boot. Yeah, which actually works out for Rover because now that you know he's lost his title as the Pam, you know, he feels defeated. And then Rover asked, in one more time, will you make me a normal size again? And at this point, the Wizard says, finally somebody actually believes I can do something. Yeah, that cracked me up.
That was a really good line. Yeah, and that's more less the story. He becomes normal again and then goes back to the boy. It's yeah, it's revealed that like the boy was the grandson of the little old lady he originally lived with right right, right right, Yeah, so there's that connection and like the you know the boy, Oh what At the end, there's there's this really charming line, let me see if I can find it.
We're like where basically the oh what ideas the child has to be sure, the grandmother says, because the child is telling her like I had this same dog as a toy and then I lost it he became a real dog, and yeah, she did not understand what on earth the little boy was talking about, though he told her that he knew about it very exactly, and over and over again. Yeah, it's such what a little kid would do. Yeah, and we get this idea that what appears as nonsense to
rational grown ups is actually the truth. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. He's and that he belonged not to her after all, but to little boy too, because mommy brought him home with the shrimps. Right. And so we get this idea that reality is to be found in apparently foolish things, right or like oh what uh from the mouths of children and of babes exactly?
You know, well, you know, I often think of in Tolkien in the Halls of Healing, right where Aragorn you know, sends out for kings foil, you know, to help those who have been touched by the black breath. The great residents of Gondor are saying, you know, king Spoil, that's just the value for that is just found in children's stories essentially,
right or and it smells nice, right Yeah. The pompous old herb master guy comes out and says all this stuff, you know, he's like, uh, it has no value that we know of, and then he repeats the whole rhyme that people have remembered. And he's like,'tis but a doggerel, I fear garbled in the memory of old wives. It's memory I leave to your judgment if indeed it has any and it's I'm just like doue. And of course Aragorn shuts the guy down. He's just like,
shut up, you know, look right. He pretty much says that it's often old wives tales that carry forgotten truths, right, yeah, they keep in memory, you know, things that people needed to know, you know, like and of course yeah, it's only the the the simple. It's you know, unless you become like a little child, he says, you know. And it's not to be childish, but to be child like. You know that that simple trust, that simple, you know, trust in
providence essentially, because a child has very little power over anything. A child has to trust that its parents have its best interests at heart, because it has very power to do anything for itself and has to be led all over the place and given food and given a warm place to sleep, and it
trusts that these things will just be there, you know. And it's like the more, you know, because we we read these gospel stories so many times and sometimes we just sort of pass over these sayings of deed Jesus without thinking about them, and like, yeah, once I started thinking about that line, I'm like, oh, of course, you know that's what it means, you know, like to you know, to be to have this radical trust that God is is going to do what is best for you no
matter what happens. And even like when the child can't understand when seemingly bad things happen to it. You know, you're taken to the doctor. It's this cold room full of all these unfamiliar smells and sounds. He pinches you with this sharp thing and it hurts, and the child is like, why are you doing this to me? And you know, but the parent knows
that this is what's best for the child. And yeah, to just have learning that kind like to become a little child, to have that childlike trust is something I've definitely certainly struggled with in my own life for a long time. But you know, it's like, there's only so many times I can observe things just working out in my life before it starts to sink in. Oh, yeah, you know, things are there's somebody else in control here.
Stop trying to control everything yourself. And it's kind of like Roverandom, he can't really control what's happening to him. He has to trust that, you know, all these different figures, the man in the Moon and the sand Wizard, you know, have his best interests in heart and that the thing, and even those periods where he has to wait, you know, just kind of being on the moon, you know, or those many times
when he goes to our de xer sees when he's under the scenes. It's like, well, you turn me back now, you know, and he seems to be like rejected. It's like, you know, when we when we go through periods of waiting in our lives and we feel like our prayers aren't being answered or listened to or something like that, and it's like, no, we're We're being made to go through this time of waiting because it
it has some sort we're supposed to grow in some way. And the more like, the less we stop fighting it, you know, the the more we'll actually, you know, get closer to being resolved. You know. So I really, you know, and I didn't the first time I read Roverandom, I didn't think of any of this stuff. It was only after like it again, recently that I'm like, yeah, Rover Random's a lot like us. You know, random things seem to happen, but it's not
really random. You know, he he needs it. It's just all of it was conducive to him becoming a good dog. And there is a great lesson to be had in that. I mean, you know, as you highlighted, his name is Rover Random. And on one hand, he's constantly being pulled to all these random places. He doesn't seem to have a lot of agency, right, He's just set out on his plane to go to the moon, to go to the sea. These things just kind of happened,
and he's along for the ride. Yeah, but as you said, you know, once you get to the end, he kind of becomes what he was always meant to become. And yes, like Bilbo, Like like Bilbo, he's he he doesn't want to go on this eventually, Let's just stay home, smoke his pipe, drink tea, you know, to have buttered scones or whatever it is. And Gandal's like, nope, I'm shoving
you out the door. You were going on this venture, and a lot of time in the early part of the hobbit, he's just along for the ride, you know, the adventure with the trolls, you know, getting dragged through Goblin Town, all that stuff. But you see him become more and more his true self as the book goes on and on, and Bilbo starts to have more agency once he embraces the fact that he's on the quests.
You know, the more he resists it in the early part of the book, the less agency he has, the more he tries to assert his agency and be like, I don't want to do this, he actually has less agency, right, And I think that really strikes that this important concept of freedom, which you're very often understood as the ability to go in any direction at all. Right, that's kind of how freedom is normally understood, But that's not freedom at all. That just means that you're the slave of
every whim that you might have. Whereas right, Yeah, but real freedom is in fulfillment of form. It's in being what it is that you're meant to be. And so the more that you embrace that direction, the more freedom you actually have. It's like you say, you're you're free to draw a square however you want, as long as it has four sides, exactly
right, well said, I forget where I heard that. That's not original to me, but as you know, it's like one of those things that once you hear it, you're like, oh, of course, you know that makes so much sense. I like that. I'm going to use that. Well. I think we covered river random probably about as well as we can. I mean, do you have any other thoughts? No? Like I I it was funny that we were we were saying at the beginning, how are we going to cover this? I just knew we would eventually end
up getting something awesome. Yeah, yeah, the spirit works that way sometimes. Absolutely. Well, hey say, we made about an hour through. I think that this is probably a good place to wrap it. I appreciate the discussion. Thanks for coming on again. Oh thank you, Andrew. This was a blast. Absolutely, And just quick remind us where can we find you find you're working on? Oh? Sure, so if you go to my actually let me pull it up here so I get the url correct.
Actually and don't yes, uh yeah, you can visit my substack newsletter Thomas J. Salerno dot substack dot com. My newsletter is called Page Turning and it's completely free to sign up. I do monthly updates on all the things I'm up to, partly because so many people ask me, you know, where can we find your stuff, so and of course it's all over the place, So it's like I decided to do this kind of one stop
shop where I update people and what I'm up to. And of course, as soon as there's anything to announce about the book, like the title and
everything, you'll see it there first. And I'm I'm planning on doing some really cool stuff with the newsletter in the future, including maybe even posting some short fiction because a friend and I have been working on some collaborative stories which are are not for kids though they're more like adult oriented short stories, but they have a lot of Christian themes in them and I think they're very exciting.
So yeah, you can visit my sub stack. And I'm not really much on social media these days because of how much it is just terrible all around. But yeah, and also if you get if you just search for sqpn or Starquest on YouTube, you'll come up to our YouTube channel where I'm regularly on the secrets of Middle Earth and the secrets of movies and TV shows
podcasts. All right, well, sounds good, So everyone to make sure to check out his stuff and uh thanks again, thank you Andrew, thank you for listening to Mythic Mind. Be sure to look up Thomas's work, and as a reminder, I welcome your support on Patreon. At patreon dot com, slash Mythic Mind and let me know if you're interested in the Lewis course. And until next time, I wish you many meaningful roads ahead.