This episode contains explicit language and is not suitable for younger audiences. We talk about sexual assault, coercive sexual behaviour and harassment, sexual misconduct, and forcible touching. Resources below.
SPEAKERS
LILY (the daughter), JENNY (the mother)
LILY
Thinking about you know, if we ever do release the videos of this, and you're there in your nice little office, your plants behind you looking quite profesh. And I'm just in bed, looking like one of you know, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory's, grandparents, you know, just like, actually, in bed.
JENNY
Well, I'm always in my active wear, and I'm never with makeup. Not that I would do makeup, but I'd probably just do something with my spots, if I have spots, and my eyebrows.
LILY
On the weekend, I was just like, in this mood. _____ was like You just really wanted to like plan a lot
JENNY
You haven't been like that for a while, like last year, you let go of all of that. And that was because it was not possible. You could not plan, you had no control over anything
LILY
And there was nothing to plan
JENNY
And the lists had stopped. So that's coming back in.
LILY
It is and of course it's one of those things. It's like how do you know, it's been a very busy couple of weeks, there's like a lot going on. And so that often makes me feel like I need to have that just so I'm across everything. But it's just as kind of, and I was saying to ______ the other day like it feels kind of manic in a way that I'm not that you know. It's just, it's very kind of unsettled.
JENNY
My psychic therapist said to me recently about that manic feeling? When when you start to feel manic, it's you're not grounded enough. So she said that's the telltale sign, you'll get that sort of jittery energy, that mania. And and she said, that's when you do your meditations or even stop. Look down at your feet. 'There are my feet.' Touch a tree. Touch a bush. Even just do some deep breathing. Just to sort of get an- Even just lying on the ground, just get down to the ground. So I've been trying to trying to do that. And it does seem to help but the Shakti mat helps as well. I'm sleeping better.
LILY
I might borrow yours actually after this and have a bit of Shakti time.
JENNY
I was gonna say where's yours? But you're here.
LILY
I will. Yeah. So just for context, I'm at mum's.
JENNY
Yeah, Lily's here. To stay the night
LILY
I'm downstairs, mum's upstairs.
JENNY
I'm like she's got her own Shakti mat. Where is it? Have you lost it?
LILY
Yeah, who took your Shakti?
JENNY
We'll put a link to the Shakti in the show notes.
LILY
Yeah, well, I was talking to ______ and her friend ______ got one. And then, a house-mate has one and has like the super strong one, the level up
JENNY
The black, the advanced spikes
LILY
She loves it. So it's very interesting. But they're both osteos. And they were like, it's really weird. It feels like kind of, you know, obviously not as good as getting treated, but they're kind of used to getting treated a lot, when they were learning they would practice a lot on each other. So she's really missing that. And so this is kind of a good, you know, substitute a little bit.
JENNY
Yeah, explain just that quickly. The Shakti mat is like a bed of nails. That's the best way I can explain it. Yeah, plastic spikes on a mat. And you lie on it. And if you can be nude, that's the preferred and I do it in bed on the mattress.
LILY
So it's softer
JENNY
I've never tried it on the ground. I've tried to stand on it. I can't do it.
LILY
I think the standing would be so hard because it's all your body weight on a small surface area, even on on your back- I don't think I could do that
JENNY
It really helps me with sleeping and you've got your your weighted blanket going again, which is good.
LILY
Yeah, I've been using that kind of consistently. Yeah, and then I stopped using it when _____ was here because it was summer, and two of us, really having another person in the bed really disrupts
JENNY
Well you're so hot.
LILY
Yeah, and just the ecosystem even just like not even heat even if you're fine like right now in winter, having ______ and the blanket, no problem. But having another person moving the bed it just somehow manages to get shifted off me somehow on either side. So it's kind of a bit.
JENNY
The double-single doona, I like me and _____ anyway, have a doona, we have a single doona, but we have a one flat sheet underneath it and we have our own doonas on top, which is nice. Then there's no fight over-
LILY
Yeah, well, I think _______ got a new doona cover and I was like to Get a king and get a king doona and then there's plenty of doona space for everyone. Yeah. So is there a bit of a battle? No, no, actually, we're fine with that. But I just like that we can be really cozy and snuggly. But yeah, I think- I want a bigger bed.
JENNY
Oh does he only have a queen?
LILY
He's got a queen. Yeah, and you've got a queen. And I've got a queen, but it feels small in a way that with other people it hasn't. I don't know why.
JENNY
Do you snuggle a lot. Maybe
LILY
No... Me and ______ would fall asleep snuggling, no problems. _____ is like a snuggle and then a turnover.
JENNY
Right.
LILY
I was thinking about it the other day. Like, I feel like, I don't know, every time there's like little things like that, where I'm like, Oh, this is like a little something that I'm you know, would prefer differently. I keep expecting myself to be like, really annoyed by it. And I'm just not, which is nice.
JENNY
And he doesn't get annoyed when you say I noticed this about you. And it's not my preference. Is that what you're saying?
LILY
No, no, I haven't said anything.
JENNY
He'll find out now, six months from now.
LILY
Yeah, exactly. He'll be like, Why don't you talk to me about your preference?
JENNY
Before you just put it on the podcast? And didn't it out.
LILY
Yeah. Well, this is what happens when you're, you know, involved with a minor, minor, minor, minor public figure [Laughter] You know, my life is not my own. I must share it with my fans. No, it's just interesting. Because like, I feel like, with _______ if he like didn't snuggle me, I would have been very like What's wrong? Yeah. And upset. Whereas, it's just like, there's little things because no one's perfect and no situation's perfect. And nothing's gonna be how I want it all the time. And I just like, I don't know, it just doesn't bother me, which is really nice.
JENNY
Sounds good. I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like then you can sleep as a person in your in a bed? Like you're not this sort of conjoined twin, you know, like person?
LILY
[Laughter]. Yeah, it's probably more sustainable. You know what I mean, in the long run as well. That's interesting. Yeah, we'll see
JENNY
Maybe we can put a list of your preferences for the show notes.
LILY
Things that are my preference and things that are not my preference. But that's okay. Because it can't be all my preference.
JENNY
It can't all be your way.
LILY
And he's pretty good at accommodating my preference. Sounds like it. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Good tangent.
JENNY
Alright, so but yeah, just back to that idea of yeah, the mad woman? It's it's a very, you know, it's been politicised. And it's a definite control tool.
LILY
Yeah, it's very interesting, because I've kind of heard talk about the word crazy. People not wanting to use it anymore because they're negative connotations. Yeah. Which, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.
JENNY
That's ableism? Isn't it, to use that sort of language?
LILY
Um, yeah, I know. And so I don't know if if you would also, like, associate that in a women's context as well, if that's kind of the ableist battle. I don't know if you can jump on that. And be like, oh, yeah, cool. I also don't like that word, because I'm a woman. And it's used in a derogatory kind of, in a negative way. I don't know. But yeah,
JENNY
Can you bags? Can you bags?
LILY
Well, no, that's that's not the- I think it's, I don't know, I'm a very stay in your lane kind of person. You know what I mean? I don't ever want to jump in and feel like I've got authority over say someone else's battle. But especially if that battle's, probably more a-
JENNY
Larger grievance
LILY
Exactly. But still, I think you can still be like, I also have my own feelings about that thing. Because it's [inaudible] to me that like this, and if we are using that word, I wouldn't be mad at that.
JENNY
And yeah, that Lena Dunham thing is called The C Word. But I think the C is for crazy.
LILY
Ah, interesting. I think I like that the title has got quite a few contexts, like, yeah, implications you know?
JENNY
Yeah, it does. Anyway, I was just gonna say we could go the J word. No. I think the Jenny word, the journal word. Okay. Shall I start reading? Alright. So, so I was upset. Before feeling anxious or something. Yeah, and I drew a little scribble and then I go, Oh, yes, Keep smiling bud! 16th of January 1981. Friday, I have only time to write a few words because I'm sitting in bed. The time is approx. 11:45pm. The car is packed and mum says we have to be up at 6:30am tomorrow to leave for Lorne at about 7:45 to 8. I've had a busy day today. This morning _____ and I went out to Monash uni, to get some hand books on courses and faculties. And I also got a couple of novels for English this year.
LILY
So it was that like a like an Open Day kind of thing?
JENNY
Would have sort of been must have been, but Monash? That's mum....
LILY
No, but for you maybe know.
JENNY
Maybe. But mum went to Monash but I think she'd finished by now. Yeah, so maybe it was for me. I love the way I don't mention the novels. When we got home, I started changing my room around but that was interrupted at about 4:15, I love the way of just like I'm so keen on time
LILY
So time conscious! Funny. And it was like oh, yeah, cause I remember last you were feeling quite angsty by how many things were in the room and the space and the chest of drawers being in the hallway?
JENNY
Having to share
LILY
That's right. You were like I need my space to live my life. So obviously you've decided to change things around. You're trying
JENNY
I'm trying to take charge. Yeah. So about 4:15 When mum and I went to David Israel's to pick up the tent, stove and light that we are hiring.
LILY
Hiring?
JENNY
So mum obviously didn't want to borrow from dad.
LILY
Right. But what's David Israel? Is that a person? Was that a shop?
JENNY
Yeah. No, it was I think mum knew him and he had a camping shop. Like I remember going there. I do remember going into this camping shop and I think it was in, I think it was on Dandenong Road, but I can't remember the suburb. Right. Then we got back and started packing. I went on with my room. So you know we're packing to go camping but let me just change my room. Yeah, yeah. And I got that when you've kind of got like that stubborn thing in your mind. Like I must get this done. Yeah.
LILY
And probably Gran trying to organise everything and you're dragging furniture,
JENNY
Probably. But, um, it'll be interesting to see what date school starts. So if we're down at Lorne for a week or two, then that's going to take us up to school starting so probably.
LILY
Yeah school holidays are usually only about six weeks over summer. And you've been down at Wangaratta two or three?
JENNY
Yeah. Oh, and yesterday and I asked _____ and dad on Zoom. About the gold mine. And they remembered it. They remembered there was gelignite involved. Like he had a drill and he'd drill holes.This is the guy that got it. And he'd drill holes and put gelignite in.
LILY
Lord
JENNY
Dad doesn't remember the leaving the gumboots. _____ remembers going on a few hikes that trip, that that's just passed. And I said where did you meet this guy? And dad reckons he just met him in Harrietville, just before or whatever. So just maybe in the pub or on the street or something like that. Or at the camping ground, actually, he said maybe at the camping ground. Okay. So yeah, they both remembered him and his mine. So I went on with my room. As a matter of fact, I'm still not finished, but it will keep till we get back from Lorne. I packed the car, and then drove it around the lane around the side, and we put it in the backyard so robbers wouldn't steal all our goodies. So that's mum. We'll pop it in the back. Otherwise someone will break in.
LILY
Which is fair enough, but also like I've been so schooled as you know, like bags in the car. And it's so funny because I am then out with people. Yeah, they don't think like that. And they'll just leave their bags in the front. You know what I mean? If we're getting out and I'm just having like, oh, just put that in the boot and I'm just channeling you, channeling Gran.
JENNY
Because the thing is, the window gets broken, then that's an expense. And stuff gets stolen. And I will say that it happened to us. Like for me, it wasn't just mum doing this sort of thing and me, because it did happen. You know, we were parked near Lygon Street, me, ____ and _____ probably. And someone left a camera on the backseat, and we got back to the car and it was gone. The window busted and it wasn't my car. But I never forgot it.
LILY
Right there you go.
JENNY
Yeah. I love the way I drove it around to the lane.
LILY
Yeah, interesting
JENNY
Rad
LILY
Yeah, well, you would have been getting your license soon?
JENNY
In another, like, almost 12 months, I've just turned 17 right, the month before.
LILY
Sure. Sure. And how did that you know, because obviously these days, there's so many rules and regulations, you know? You have to do your 120 hours and night drive. Back then it was just go do the tests.
JENNY
You just had to pass the test. Yeah.
LILY
What was it kind of like? Did people still go out and do kind of driving practice quite a bit? You still have to learn how to drive.
JENNY
Yeah, you knew that you had to do be able to do parallel parking, three point turn. You knew about like stop signs and like being able to do all the signs, and do roundabouts. But yeah, you just had to be able to pass the test
LILY
And who taught you to drive? Was it granddad, probably?
JENNY
Dad initially when I was a kid. So at 12 or 13, we'd go out and the Volkswagen Beetle down at Barwon Heads, there was this the road called the Sheep Wash, or a place near there called Sheep Wash. And it was just like this gravel road that was really quiet. And so yeah, we drove there. In the Beetle, or in his mum's, his mum had a little mini minor. And then mum, yeah, mum would have taken me out. You know, at home. And I mean, I do remember going down to Inverloch and driving down and driving back on my Ls and we were driving back in the Passat, which I've already mentioned, which was a Volkswagen station wagon. And it was orange. And it was manual. And it had this really bad gearbox like, it was fine. But getting it into reverse was virtually impossible. You had to sort of like, push it down into the socket and do this really, I don't know, it was just not an intuitive
LILY
Position for
JENNY
reverse. And dad. But yeah, it would just enrage him. This this reverse this gear box. We're coming back from Inverloch. And we were bringing back his canoe, he had a canoe. And that was on top of the car. And I remember there was this stretch and I'm driving. And he wants me to overtake like about four or five cars. And he's just like, FLOOR IT, FLOOR IT, you know, and like get up to 120 or 130 ks with this canoe on top.
LILY
Oh, Jesus. Yeah.
JENNY
Yeah, so did quite a bit of driving.
LILY
I feel like you know, particularly Yeah, it's one of those things if you're a family that goes away quite a bit, goes camping, got those long drives, it's a really good opportunity to do that, you know
JENNY
So the car's around the back with all our goodies. And then just about brings me up to date as I sit here in the exhausting heat, pondering of the forecasted hot weather tomorrow, as ______ tosses and turns on the bottom bunk, saying she can't get to sleep. She's probably too excited. I think I'll sign off now and relax after my hard day's yakka. I need all the energy I can get tomorrow to tolerate nanny's nagging and talking non-stop. Give me strength. See you later. J. X. And then Word of the Week at Lorne: mortification.
LILY
So what's nanny got to do with it? So obviously they're going to be down at Lorne with you guys, no?
JENNY
Oh yeah, maybe.
LILY
Camping?
JENNY
No, no, maybe they were they would stay in a motel or for a couple of nights or something? Maybe to help mum set up the tent
LILY
Right. Was nanny a bit of nagger? Was she-
JENNY
she was critical. No she wasn't, she wasn't critical. She wasn't a nagger. But I've got nagging and talking non-stop so I don't know. My memory is not that she was a nag. But actually, and I don't like that word for women. It's another one of those words. But she would kind of worry about you know, I reckon if I'm if I've got nagging here, it will be at pop-pop. Yeah. So she she may be used to kind of be at him a bit. 17th of January Saturday, today we arrived at Lorne at about 11:30. We were escorted- here we go! We were escorted down in inverted commas by nanny and pop-pop, much to the embarrassment of myself and _____ and even mum. We stopped at Anglesea and I went to the toilets. When we returned to the carpark, nanny had set up a portable canteen on the bonnet of her car. Hot coffee, chicken and salad sandwiches and cans of drink. It was a nice thought but highly embarrassing. Oh how lovely.
LILY
That's so nice. That's funny. It's yeah, it's it's funny because it's like I have such vivid memory of, like memories throughout so many different family trips of Gran and her sandwiches, and her packed lunchs
JENNY
Her thermos!
LILY
Her beetroot falling onto her white top.
JENNY
Well, that was just once
LILY
But it's like that's a very early memory for me.
JENNY
Yeah. quite traumatic for you to see that. I think it was just like on the white shirt.
LILY
And just like the stress of it all, which is like, you know, so yeah, that's just funny. Yeah. So what they they were just driving down with you guys?
JENNY
And then they probably drove back. To help us well, well I will say that at 17, I am peak teenage angst. We got to Lorne — because Lorne out of all of the beachside towns, Lorne was the coolest. Lorne was were there were the surfers.So I would have already been feeling that kind of, like-
LILY
Impending. I'm just gonna be so aware of myself for the next week.
JENNY
And how can I wear-?
LILY
And there's nanny with her crinkle crinkle rustling of sandwich paper and you know [laughter]
JENNY
[Laughter] Yeah and how can I? How am I going to navigate the beach with my family? You know? Hopefully nanny and pop-pop won't want to come to the beach? You know? Yes. How am I going to look in my like, I can remember my bathers. There's there were brown ties at the side. The bottoms had tie sides.
LILY
Oooh. Yeah, it's so interesting. Because I feel like at that age, you've got just zero, like, patience for any kind of ridiculous. Anything, you know what I mean
JENNY
And just discomfort as well
LILY
Yeah. And but you can't kind of see the funny in anything really like that. Whereas like, I feel like, you know, 10 years older, you'd be like-
JENNY
Yeah, yeah, you'd be laughing
LILY
At the quirks of this person. And then also, as people get older, they do just kind of grow into their quirks and become more eccentric. A teenager and like an older person together, it's just like,
JENNY
Yeah, no, that's so true. And I would not have had any self- like wanting to laugh at myself. Probably taking things so seriously. So we got to Lorne and immediately proceeded to put up the tent. Oh, my God, what an ordeal. We eventually got it up under I told you so looks from nanny and pop-pop We got settled in and then the grands left.
LILY
So so obviously they kind of felt that you guys going camping was a bit silly.
JENNY
Probably and mum on her own. You need a man to go camping. But good on mum
LILY
Good on her. Maybe she was you know, not Yeah. Not wanting you guys to not have that experience just because grandad wasn't around I imagine he would have been the real, you know, one that knew how to do everything. Probably would have been definitely out of her comfort zone. But you know,
JENNY
and speaking of dad, too. I asked him yesterday. Do you remember we were talking about him being in the cadets? Yeah. So yes, it was a school thing. And I asked him, I said, What was the attraction? Was it the guns? And he said, No, he said, I think it was the drills and the formations. But yeah, so he liked that. And then we had a conversation about what happened to the guns because I said, I thought he gave them in to the amnesty in 1996. And he said, No, he didn't. I said, so what happened to them,
LILY
Oh I still got them.
JENNY
And he said, the rifle went to the police station, he took it in to the police station. And the shotgun went to a gun shop. And at both places, he got a piece of paper saying he'd surrendered them. And then
LILY
that was after 96? Just at another time?
JENNY
Yeah that must have been after '96. So he would not have wanted to Oh, there's an amnesty I'm going to take, you know, I'm going to sort of, you know, take the-
LILY
Join.
JENNY
No, no, no, I'm not going to do that. But then a few years later, and then I said, So where did you keep the guns when we're at Ashburton? And I said to next to the golf clubs in the cupboard. And I'm like, Yeah, I have memories of them just being propped up and then he said oh, yeah, and then when the farm he had them up at the they were up at the farm, right? So they could be around ______'s young children, younger children, Right. So there you go, follow those bits up. So the grands left, we then hit the beach and I was even more embarrassed. ______ with her six foot lilo, mum red high heels and bikinis and white legs. And ______ and me. Mum led us straight to the front of the crowd and then everyone but me went for a swim. I went later yeah, just wanting to disassociate from them. Then I walked back to the camp and then went to the store to buy a few things. On the bridge we met _________. So mum's, friends of mum's were down with their kids. And he accompanied us to the store. He then went back to his house, that they're renting. Our campsite here is about one meter from the river, I'm serious in brackets. And on a slope with a gradient of about 45 degrees. I've got a diagram. FUN! A couple of hours after we got here, it started pouring with rain. Mum came back from the beach greeting us with It never fails! Tonight about 9pm, we walked downtown and I rang _______. But she wasn't there. Mrs. _______ said to ring back tomorrow after tea but I think I might try to get onto her sooner. I don't know. I hope she can come down. I hope tomorrow is hot so I can catch up on some skin cancer. We used to joke about-
LILY
Did people know though? It's a thing if you're referencing it?
JENNY
Yeah, we joked about it. I don't know why. The _____ arrived today and they are camping. Just in the next aisle from us. But I've not spoken to them as yet. I've seen ______ running to and fro into the toilets amidst the showers but haven't sighted ______. I don't know whether I'm grateful or disappointed. I just want to be friends with them. Is that too much to ask? Probably. They can't hack relationships which aren't based purely on sex. Probably. I don't know, gee, it shits me. I think I'll read Pride and Prejudice now and then go to sleep. Goodnight.
LILY
Okay. So who are those people?
JENNY
They- So I'm 17 here. So nothing had ever happened with them. But like, as a person this age, but back when I was probably maybe 13, 14, 12? Yeah, probably 13 or 14. They were quite. They were sexually coercive. And they would touch me and try to persuade me to do things with them. And one was my age and the other was a couple of years older. And it was not cool. You know? Yeah. And so they, and the older one did actually manage to make me give him a handjob.
LILY
Right.
JENNY
And it was a it was just like nothing in it sexual for me.
LILY
Yeah
JENNY
I remember pointing, because I knew that he would ejaculate and I remember pointing it so that it would not go on me. So it kind of went all down his waistcoat. And then during it ______ tried to come in. I'd said to her Don't leave me alone with these-
LILY
Yeah
JENNY
with either one of them. Yeah, putting that on her, which was not cool. Yeah, she's trying to do her duty. And then halfway through, we were behind this sort of cupboard in his bedroom or whatever. And she starts coming in. Jen? Jen? I'm like, Go out, go out. She was confused. Yeah, she couldn't see anything. But yeah. And then he came, then I leave the room. And then I don't know where I went. And then the next time I see him, he's just, he's ironing his waistcoat. Like, you know, he's like gone and a sponged it and he's ironing it dry. And just like staring at me, like really angry
LILY
What a dick.
JENNY
Absolute dick. Absolutel dick.
LILY
What an arsehole. Did you end up talking to Gran about that?
JENNY
So at the time, I spoke to mum and she pretty much fobbed me off. And I'm not very happy about that. And she said, Oh, you know, young people, you know, when people are young, they they, they experiment. It's okay. But she just wasn't hearing what I was saying. Like I wanted help with it, of course, but she wouldn't have wanted to upset on a parental level. See, that's the thing, kids have to handle so much shit on their own.
LILY
Because we get like so socialised to not make a fuss, to not be, you know what I mean, in our lives, to not inconvenience. And people get to the point where they won't even do that for their children, you know, because they're just so yeah, uncomfortable with making a scene, making a fuss, making a problem.
JENNY
Losing a friendship-
LILY
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Blowing things out of proportion,
JENNY
A friendship would end over something like that.
LILY
Yeah. Yeah, it would
JENNY
Basically, you know, if I went to her and she then took it to _____, you know, basically your your kid is a essentially-
LILY
sexual abuser
JENNY
Yeah, but yeah, that wasn't the language use, it wouldn't have been that language. You know, they're sort of
LILY
and then it probably would have been met with Oh look, well okay. Well, boys will be boys, you know.
JENNY
Yeah.
LILY
So what kind of happened from then on, like, how did you manage it?
JENNY
So I don't think I really, so from the sounds of this, I probably haven't seen them since something three, you know, maybe three years, right.
LILY
So not that close friends really
JENNY
Not as we got older. When we were younger, we saw them a lot more. But yeah, it was more sporadic, you know. And as the same with you guys like when you became teenagers, you just don't see your sort of family friends so much because the kids don't want to hang out.
LILY
No, they don't. Yeah, that's what it is. It's like this weird, awkward forced thing now of like, you were super close when you were kids, but you now go to different high schools. Like it's different. You don't see each other.
JENNY
You've got different friends. Yeah, so mum would still probably see them socially occasionally. But we didn't see the kids
LILY
Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That would have been stressful. Yeah. To see.
JENNY
Yeah. Yep. So. Good night. J 19. January, Monday, this is the-
LILY
So just on that, but like, have you talked to Gran about it since?
JENNY
No, I've got a few things I'm going to talk to her about. So this is two days later, Monday. This is how I'm feeling now. How about that ay? And I've got like another scribble, angsty. I think I better explain. Today was my worst day here so far. I was lonely, sad and embarrassed. I knew that ______ was coming down today. But I didn't know what I would do or say when I saw him. I went downtown at about 10:15 to 10:30pm. ______ went to the games to play slot machines. And I sat on a bench on the grass opposite watching people playing touch ball on the trampolines. Pretty late to be out. But I'm 17.
LILY
And it's summer as well.
JENNY
And it's summer. Yeah. And I sighted ________ and then moved to a bench that was further away still waiting. I observed _______ going here and there and didn't know how I felt. I don't know frustration. I don't want to admit it. But I think I really like ______ and then in brackets (-D, liked) him. Anyway, I watched him walk his way home. And I then decided it was time ____ and I went too so I went and fetched _______ and we walked back to the camping ground. Just as we were about to turn down our aisle, _______ approached out of the darkness and started walking towards us. As we passed, I smiled and said Hi fairly cheerfully. ______ looked as though his mind was clicking and he was trying to think of something to say. Hi kids, he said and walked straight past. FUCK!!! Well, and then all these scribbles. I sure feel sorry for him. Shit, if he has to treat me like that to stay cool and his ego remains satisfactorily boosted. FUCK I say and FUCK again.
LILY
Yes, see that's so interesting as well as like.Ooften I feel like, you know with these situations? It can be so confusing, because at a time, it might have been some kind of childish feeling or crush or whatever. And like, obviously, at the time, like you had your feelings about what happened and that made you uncomfortable, but probably weren't viewing it in the context that you do now?
JENNY
Yeah. And I think I don't know, it can be really confusing. And it can be so mixed. Because it can be unwanted attention but it doesn't mean you don't want, you're not wanting any any attention. Like it might mean I didn't want *that* attention-
LILY
That. And I didn't want that to happen, to occur.
JENNY
But maybe I still wanted him to like me. And in some ways, that getting, receiving of attention, no matter how it is, like, even *that* attention can be quite powerful for anybody, like and I think. And I'm not talking about, you know, I'm talking about a situation like this, like a scenario like this, where there might be a guy, and you don't necessarily like him. But if he's giving you lots of attention, it can then be that the attention becomes a thing, and especially if no one else is giving you attention.
LILY
And then if that attention is taken away, then it feels like it's because of you. And I think a lot of times, like for people, I can imagine that. Things like that kind of happen. And you don't want, didn't want that thing to happen, or were not comfortable with that thing happening. However, it is evidence of attention. Yeah, I wouldn't even say feeling necessarily. You know what I mean? You can interpret it that way. And then people kind of still want that to continue and therefore will allow for I feel like- allow was a very loaded word because
JENNY
maybe put up with? up with maybe put up with? Accept?
LILY
Yeah, accept. Accept stuff. But because of that, which is- And also because it's very hard to have the view of like, kind of what's actually happening and the power imbalance and how coercive and inappropriate that is, when you're in it. You know, you don't see it that way. But yeah, interesting. Well that's sad.
JENNY
Yeah, there's more. Sorry about that. But I have to get it all out of my system so I can face tomorrow with a smile. Oh, isn't that sad? Yeah. Good on you! 17-year-old Jenny.
LILY
Yeah, you're handling your shit.
JENNY
Yeah. And I'm not running to Mum. Mum said- Oh obviously I have! Mum said this behavior could be because he is embarrassed of his behavior to me for the last five or more years. So obviously I did go and talk to her. They used to literally attempt to rape / seduce / attack me. And I had to bodily fight them off. Wow. Wow. ... ... Yeah, that's interesting. I remember one occasion where one was trying to, he was trying to put his hands down my pants and I wouldn't let him, my legs were so tightly clenched together. And I remember him saying, Why don't you just cooperate?
LILY
Jesus.
JENNY
And I remember, I didn't know what co-operate meant.
LILY
Yeah, right
JENNY
I was. I was too young to know what co-operate meant. We were good friends, apart from all that laughing and getting on well. Yeah, that's the kicker. And I enjoyed company. And they were fun and we'd, you know-
LILY
and often that's the way it is. This is why it's so confusing for people. Because again, it's not that stranger that you don't know, it's someone that's in your life, you have an emotional investment in, that often adds value in some kind of way. And there's enjoyment. And I feel like so many people probably feel so confused and so guilty for kind of, maybe liking them as people, but then these people do these things. And you're just like, well, how, how can my friend do that? Therefore that must be okay, because it's so hard to reconcile in your mind, someone that you trust and like, and enjoy, doing those things. So you start to kind of change the way you're viewing those things and try and make it okay, in your mind, which is just like-
JENNY
Yeah. Then all of a sudden, about December 1979 they cooled off tremendously, ignoring me when they saw me. Frustration. I'm so mad, and I've got this really sad face with tears.
LILY
So how old would you have been in '79? 16?
JENNY
So a year before? Oh, this is '81. Yeah. But it's January '81. So it's about a little over a year before? I don't know what happened in that December. 16. So I must have seen them. Must have, I must have been seeing them.
LILY
I wonder what that is. Why. Maybe you just got like a, like, a bit too old. You know what I mean, in the sense that, like, you know, if you're trying to abuse someone, younger is better. You know
JENNY
Shit, but they were the same age as me and just a little bit older.
LILY
No but like, as in, you know, by 16. If they were saying just co-operate. Yeah, you would have known what that meant, you know what I mean? Like, as people become more aware of what sexual things are, it's a lot harder, like, they're gonna come at you with more, usually more understanding of what you're trying to do. So I don't maybe something like that.
JENNY
Yeah. And if I said, for the last five or more years, so 17 here yet started around 12 When I was 12, or 11.
LILY
Wow. Yeah, that's not okay.
JENNY
So I reckon that instance, where he said, Just co-operate, I would have been probably 11 or something and not knowing what that meant. Which seems strange, you'd think I would, but maybe just in that moment, I waswanting to shut shut down and kind of
LILY
I didn't know what it meant at 11. I had no clue how sex work really?
JENNY
No, but co-operate. You'd know that word.
LILY
Sure, but you, like just co-operate, but to what end? You don't know what he means by co-operating. So you didn't do it? You know what I mean?
JENNY
No, I didn't know what the word meant.
LILY
Right. Interesting.
JENNY
Yeah. It was a real moment of like, I don't know what that means. And am I? I don't know.
LILY
So it wasn't like you don't know what it means in that context. You just
JENNY
I didn't know what the word meant.
LILY
Interesting. Yeah. I don't know. This is all stuff like this would have impacted you a lot probably more than you probably registered just in terms of defensiveness and you know
JENNY
Well talking about it now. I'm feeling uncomfortable. Yeah, in my chest.
LILY
Yeah, there you go. So that's gonna be a lot of emotional. Yeah, stuff. Probably that you're still carrying. Yeah.
JENNY
Maybe I'll get to it with _______
LILY
I was gonna say she'd probably be really good to chat to
JENNY
Yeah, I'm so mad. I've bitten all my nails off in anxiety and I found myself asking ______ so many questions about what they said when he saw him at the games, and whether he'd seen ______, etc. _______ knows that I feel something for _____. He says I should forget him. He's not worth it. It's so ironic. He used to literally pant after me a few years ago, and I used to kick him away, excepting for the very few occasions where I did something for him. I only remember one occasion. And he said, I was the only girl he'd ever wanked himself in front of. THRILLS. And then I've got an asterix down the bottom: wanked = masturbated. But now when I'm starting to feel for him, it's the other way around. Not that I think he saw me as anything but a hole to stick his dick in. SHIT. I'm so MAD.
LILY
Hmm.
JENNY
Although now I'm certain he doesn't want to talk to me or see me, I think I'll realise what he really is a prick and forget about him. Tomorrow, _______ should come down and I'll not go down to the beach till she turns up. If she doesn't come down I don't know what I'll do. Oh, well, sleep on it and see what happens. But I now resolve that I am going to avoid _______ and try to be as happy as possible. And if I do bump into them, I will be ice cold. Just what they've always accused me of being: frigid. Time to go to sleep. Actually, I think I'll read a bit first and try to relax. Goodnight. J
LILY
Interesting
JENNY
Yeah, so that's all very formative. Yeah. formative years.
LILY
Yeah. 100%. Yeah,
JENNY
it's not nice. Yeah. So
LILY
how do you feel reading that?
JENNY
Yeah, I mean, it's funny how it sort of you go back to those feelings, but like, I have distance. And what I what I notice about it is I like my resilience, you know, I've got my plan. I'm gonna wait till ______ comes then we'll go down to the beach. I'm not going down. I'm going to, I make my resolution pretty quickly, you know?
LILY
Yeah. Even though there's like, a feeling of something. And I don't know not to put words in your mouth. I don't think it was necessarily like, you like him. It's a feeling of loss of *something*. You know what I mean, which I think is such a human reaction, even though again, it's not something that you wanted, but still, that lack of it feels like a rejection.
JENNY
Yeah.
LILY
And, and like, yeah, I can totally see feeling that way. But like, even despite the feeling that you're, you're kind of still able to yet be strong and be like, well, they're not acting well. They haven't acted well. And you know what? I mean? Like, that's a reflection on them. Not on you. Yeah, very interesting. And how do you feel kind of reading it to me? Because I feel like you've mentioned stuff about that. But I didn't know the extent.
JENNY
No, well, I'd forgotten the extent. I feel, again, it's exposing I feel, I feel that, you know, whenever we've done the bad diaries, so on, I choose what I read, I choose what I read, here we're reading from the beginning.
LILY
And you don't know when it's gonna come up, you kind of knew that might be covered. You don't know when you don't. It's gonna be this session, and you don't know how much how details right? You know, because like we've seen, you know, there's times where you give a lot of detail, and sometimes in times that you kind of don't on things and yeah, you know, so you just never really kind of know what's going to come up, which is-
JENNY
Yeah, so I feel, I feel I feel a bit of that I feel uncomfortable, but I also feel for the sake of the project, like I'm willing to do it. And please don't sue us.
LILY
Suddenly, we get it, you know, a-
JENNY
cease and desist. Stop reading out. My client doesn't want to listen to your podcast where their teenage flaws are exposed.
LILY
Well, yeah. And that's the language that would be used as like, you know, A man shouldn't be judged on something that happened 40 years ago. Oh, no. They should.
JENNY
You know, what, and I yeah, I do wonder about them as men.
LILY
Well, yeah. Interesting. I just Yeah, I do and just psychologically, what's going on? Because it's very much like, you know, obviously, there's a sexual element there. But it's so much just about power and control and subjecting someone to your will. It's dominance, and that's, you know, you feeling in control of the situation.
JENNY
Yeah. And when I said that they tried to rape/seduce/attack me, like the use of the word 'rape' there is looking back and and, you know, I think that was a bit of a, that was exaggeration like I, I never felt I never felt in danger. And I never felt frightened. It was more of an irritation than fear, and this relentless kind of like, you know, trying to get me to do something that I didn't want to do, but I never felt threatened or scared.
LILY
And that's so interesting, because like, I think I, you know, obviously a lot of people experience things where they *do*.
JENNY
Yeah
LILY
but I do think they'd probably be quite a large number where it's a similar situation, that's what makes it — I wouldn't even call this a grey area — because I do think that behavior was super inappropriate and should not have happened. But people can at the time, feel like it's a grey area, because yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's one of those things. And it's just, it's such a difficult kind of topic to try and understand and to try to talk about, because, you know, it isn't black and white. In the sense, even though I think this one is fairly, you know, fairly black and white, but like, just in the sense of like, it doesn't fit those patterns that I think we're often taught about any kind of sexual assault is like, Oh, you're gonna know that you don't want it, and it's going to be happening to you anyway. And you're going to be scared, you're gonna be frightened, and it's going to be, you know, this really, you know, traumatic, scary experience. And, you know, I'm not saying that that wasn't traumatic. But I think often it's just not clear at the time as it's happening. What even is happening, and so long afterwards for you to feel and understand, like, that's not what you want. You know what I mean?
JENNY
And that's what's come out with the Chanel Contos consent petition. So many girls, girl after girl after girl, with their boyfriends, experiencing coercive behavior. And this wearing down of, you know, that eventually people [give in] and they don't know that it's wrong. I think that's-
LILY
that I think the word 'coercive' and 'wearing down', those are two things, like two concepts, I think we need to explore a little bit more in that space of sexual misconduct, or whatever we're kind of calling it. It's that thing where so many people will be like, Well, you know, I guess I let it happen. Or I guess I said, Yes. Or I guess... I you know, whatever. But it's like, what happened in that time previously, for you to get to that point?
JENNY
Exactly. Exactly.
LILY
And would you have arrived at that point? Yeah. Without that pressure? If no, then-
JENNY
Exactly. And I know, definitely, it was just like, like, obviously,he masturbated in front of me. And then maybe another occasion, you know, but that would have just been for me to make him stop. You know, just it was this, it was harassment. It was absolute harassment. And obviously I just got worn down. No kissing like, there was nothing, it wasn't a sexual thing. Like you said before. It wasn't romantic. It wasn't sexual. It was more about power and domination and getting, for him sexual gratification, but nothing for me. Not not not, not even one kiss.
LILY
Right. There you go. That's the thing. And like, you know, I think I think that's, that's so telling, as well as like, who's initiating? You know, what I mean? If it's healthy, you know, consensual, whatever relationship is like, then sexual things will be initiated. On both sides, you know, and then then-
JENNY
Yeah, and so I probably felt, you know, I probably felt not good about that as well. You know, like, it was clear that he didn't like me in that way. Didn't even want to kiss me. Like, what can I just be used for?
LILY
And that's hard. That's a hard thing to kind of, I think a lot of women experience that with men, to be honest, you know, but like, at such a young age to kind of learn that about men-
JENNY
That's my first. Yeah, my first sexual experience
LILY
Which is, you know, really kind of dissuades you from or whatever romantic notions, you know, in a way, which is and would make you very defended and I think, yeah, it's an interesting one, but I think we just need to, like try it and have a little bit more understanding on how long is, how long as well, it can take for people to realise how they feel about something.
JENNY
Right. Yeah.
LILY
You know what I mean, and it can take years to look back at situations and be like, Yeah, I wasn't okay with that. You know, and so we're so hung up on this, oh, if someone doesn't want something, they'll say no. And for a lot of times that that is true, but I I think that's why the whole affirmative consent thing is so important because people, if they don't know, will usually be silent. So unless you're getting a resounding yes, then it's not. It's not clear cut, you know? People don't don't know that they'd want No, sometimes in the moment.
JENNY
Exactly. Yeah. And then the other thing about people not making complaints about sexual misconduct or assault until years or decades later, that's the other thing. Yeah, like you just said, it can take so long to really identify something for what it was and know what your feelings are about it. Because people just put stuff away, they just shut down. They, they move on, they don't deal with stuff. And I mean, you and I've talked about, like, I know, you know, in terms of counselling, I had to, and I'm probably, I'm probably only starting to get to it now. But when you were little, you know, and my marriage broke up with your father, you know, I knew I should have had counselling, but I didn't want to open stuff up, because I knew I'd just either start crying and not stop, or just not have the time or the energy to devote to that sort of healing. You just carry on
LILY
100% that's the thing. And it's like _____ said a similar thing the other day about that and was just kind of like, Yeah, there's probably a lot. But like, I kind of don't want to get it, you know what I mean? Get into it. And so you could even be like, oh, I want to go to therapy. I know, there's this stuff I don't want to deal with. But it can take you a really, really long time to feel ready to deal with the deep stuff. And like, I've been seeing someone for like a long time. And I've dealt with a lot of stuff. But like, the other day when I was talking to her about the whole, you know, FOMO anxiety thing was actually the first time I think ever I've come to her or something where I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know where this comes from. I don't know how to deal with it. I don't know what I think about, I don't know. That was the first time in years, like, however long I've been seeing her where I was probably in that really vulnerable space with her of like, I don't know this thing. You know, so you can still be seeing something and not be touching that deep stuff. You know? And not be ready for it.
JENNY
Yeah. Me saying yeah, recently, like earlier this year, when you were wanting to change, change counsellors. And once we dug around in that a little bit, you said, it might be that we're coming now to talking about some of the harder stuff that I don't want to deal with? And it's like,
LILY
yeah, and then you change, you find something new, you start the process again, and it is a long process. Yeah, I've kind of I think, in some ways, you know, if you're dealing with the crisis, you're talking about that stuff. But often that's very like, Okay, you're in crisis, what do we do to do this? And then you start talking about stuff? And it's like, yeah, you kind of work your way backwards. It's like the, the layers, you know, to this, and then it's not until you've done that and have the time to do that. You're finally like, okay, I guess there's nothing else to really talk about. Let's get to it. Yeah.
JENNY
Huh.
LILY
Yeah. Yeah, very. You know, that's
JENNY
it. Now I'm thinking, how are we going to have manage this in terms of Yeah. De -identifying the players, and
LILY
I think beeping is fine. Because I think the thing is, at the end of the day, anyone who knows the situation will probably know who you're talking about. But that's the same with with anything, you can't avoid that. It's just avoiding the public. And that's, and the public should fucking know. But you know, that's not how, legal things work. And this is a super frustrating thing is that you should be able to go on a podcast and say, this happened to me. And these are the people that did it. You know what I mean, and not. Like, I feel like with these things, if you can't now go in, you could but like, if you couldn't now successfully, go to the police, file a report and them be held accountable, I don't think they should be able to turn around and sue you, you know what I mean? If you can't take action against them, why should they be able to take action against you is like, dumb. That's so warped, in my mind.
JENNY
But it's that's how it is. I mean,
LILY
and this is the thing with all these with, you know, these kind of sexual cases is like as well, because there is so much time often between it happening, and people being able to deal with, yeah, you know it or even consider reporting or whatever it's like, then there's that defense of like, oh, well, this happened so many years ago. They're different now. The people that changed blah, blah, blah, and it's like, they don't change. Guaranteed they, they've done this to other people.
JENNY
Yeah, yeah. I want to say it's not that bad. My urge is still to minimise it, to explain it. You know, we were kids, they were kids. It could have been worse, you know, but I think you're right I mean, it did affect me. It did affect the way, you know, in terms of trust and sexual, you know, shaping of sort of how you view sex and how you view men. Yeah.
LILY
100% And I think as well like, God, yeah, there's always that urge to try and qualify. It is different to what- you know what I mean, like it. I think everyone kind of goes through that. And you know, you're right. It could have been worse, but the fact that you should never be in a situation where you're having to say that it's like, I feel lucky because they didn't, you know, hold me down or rape me because they weren't successful. But yeah, I totally get that. And I think you know, for me, I'm you know, even if it were was more heavy stuff, I'm not kind of worried about that. I just to be honest, I feel quite privileged that you're willing to share this with me
JENNY
and the world
LILY
and the world. But you know, right now it is just with me. Yeah, that's, that's really quite amazing. Because I don't think many people could do that. You know, so thanks. It's really means a lot to me. That we can chat like this
JENNY
Oh no worries. No worries, mate. Yeah, going for how do you think we're going for time with this?
LILY
We could probably finish up, you know. Leave you on a good note. A fun note [laughter].
JENNY
With what?
LILY
Well, just, you know, yeah. Leaving leaving things on pretty heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,
JENNY
Okay. All right. Good. I feel tired now.
LILY
Yeah. Well, I guess Yeah, it brings up all that kind of emotion again, a little bit.
JENNY
And anger. It's interesting that I was angry, like, I'm not, which is good. You know, anger is outwards. You know, I didn't sort of shut down and turn inwards and get depressed or something. I was angry. I fuck you fuck them?
LILY
Well, exactly. And it's interesting-
JENNY
and that's pretty healthy.
LILY
And I think you're, you're quite good at engaging with anger. You know, I mean, I think a lot of people, and I don't mean that in a negative way. You really, I mean, you're not, you're not like an angry person. But I think just so many people, and I think particularly so many women just don't even- are not well practiced at actually feeling their anger. And we get start to get dismantled very quickly. And just kind of, you know, and I think, you know, the fact that, yeah, you're able to kind of keep keep healthy, keep functioning keep, you know, doing what you need it to do is testament to you. And, but it's just like, the kind of, I don't know, it's just the fucking audacity of people to, like, impact someone else's life like that. Yeah, with another person, in a different situation, that could have completely derailed them. And for the rest of their lives been something that yeah, I couldn't, you know, get over. Yeah, you know, and, and even so, I would say like, it's always gonna kind of be a thing. That's yeah. shaped you a little bit, but yeah, I don't know. It's just, yeah, it's very it's just, this is so not the right word, but it's just so fucking RUDE. You know? To that to someone. Yeah. And I'm just always just so confronted with
JENNY
and they would have no idea, I believe. No idea
LILY
They would barely remember it or you or what happened. And they would not register it in the way that it was. Because that's the thing as well, the mind is so self protective. And for these people, it's self protective of them, and they don't see themselves as sexual predators at all.
JENNY
Yeah,
LILY
no,
JENNY
no,
LILY
no.
JENNY
Okay, well, that's that.
LILY
That's that. Cool. Well, I'll come up and grab the Shakti mat, and then maybe we can transition into some light hearted Housewives.
JENNY
Sounds good.
LILY
Bring up the mood a little bit
JENNY
Okay, darling. All right. Well, great.
LILY
Yeah. Well, signing off as ever. Please don't sue us. Unless you're ____ in which case, we'll sue you back. [Laughter]
JENNY
Exactly. [Laughter]
LILY
OK, bye! Please hit the subscribe button so you won't miss out on any of our bad content. Don't forget to rate us at least one star and leave your scathing reviews. Wherever you find your podcasts. That way we can bring out bad content to the rest of the world. Thanks for listening. And please don't sue us.
JENNY
Thanks for listening. And please don't sue us.
LILY
Yeah, don't sue us. Please. Rude
*
Resources:
https://www.1800respect.org.au
https://www.teachusconsent.com
https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/sex-discrimination/list-support-services
https://newyorkpathways.com/sexually-acting-out-as-response-to-childhood-trauma/