The DeBarge Effect (with Kevin Avery) RE-RELEASE

I would go as far as it says more than one of them had a king at any given time, because at one point it was just the thing to be a dude in an R and B group and have a ca I bought one from my brother for Christmas. I was like, it was a rite of passage for just the young black dudes at the time. A brother, you know you need a king and he he might still have it. I just saw him yesterday.

I should have asked, I pray to God you kneeled when you handed it off during I want that more than anything.

My chips in yours are.

Racist layers, money.

Turned stuff I.

Can't tell me. Welcome to another phenomenal episode of My Mama.

Told the podcast when we dive deep, deep into the pockets of black conspiracy theories.

And we finally worked to prove that Kyler Pratt did, in fact sacrifice her television father flex Alexander's career two of the Black Illuminati, in exchange for eternal youth.

It sounds right to me, I'll be honest, that sounds exactly right. Kyla Pratt has not aged a day since nineteen ninety one.

She looks amazing.

She looks fantastic and something had to have happened. You can't see the same girl from Loving Basketball forever?

Where's Flex? He was on a rocket ship to the Moon. I haven't seen him since.

You know he was in If I'm remembering correctly, he was in Snakes on a plane.

If I'm not mistaken, who wound up briefly in that I was on a plane briefly. That's no barometer for success.

This easily could have been a Flex Alexander hologram or Washington. Which one was Washington or Alexander flex Alexander.

I believe he was Flex Washington on the show on one?

Why why do that? Why not pick a full different name if you're gonna be in a multi cam on upn Why why why commit so hard?

I think you want the name Flex is what's going to travel Alexander Washington. It's all very interchangeable, but Flex is what they want us to remember.

He said, Alexander is my slave name, but Flex, that's.

Washington is my lesser slave name.

Washington it's my chosen slave name. If I have to choose a slave name, I want the best slave owner.

I E Washington. No, they had dental the Washington. So it's a good family. Yeah, it was a solid family, solid slave owner.

Shout out to the slave owner in Washington's if you're still out there, Hell yeah, you got it, baby, you're the best.

What are we one minute in? All right, I'm dreaming.

Board and I'm your co host, Langston Carman. We're so happy to be here with you. We're we're talking shit about uh apparently flex flex Alexander and and Kyler Pratt and George Washington a little bit. But but let's see him for some reason. But our guest today, I would dare to say that that he hasn't owned any slaves, nor it would he would he well, I think he'd go so far.

Okay, maybe maybe he would. He's not certain. He's wavering on the subject. But he's such a.

Funny comedian, hysterical. You've seen him in so many things. Specifically, he is a a writer producer for The Great North on Fox, so fucking funny. Please give it up for our guests, mister Kevin Avery, how are you. We're excited you're here.

I'm gonna go no on on the slave owning. Damn, I'm gonna make that official. Yeah, Okay, this feels put.

It on watch.

I'm trying to be on the on the right side of things, you know. I feel like I feel like slave owning is a dangerous, dangerous precedent.

To start to show it out there now.

It would be a weird way to start the episode and expect people to eventually be on your and.

Then just.

Go back to the part where he said he don't slaves.

Okay, hear me out, Yeah I do own slaves, but yeah, yeah, okay, So I'm good. So noticed slave voting and that's fine. To each his own. A is what I always say. But you came to us this week with a conspiracy theory, and I'm I say you, but the truth is this is a bit of a unique episode because you did not, in fact come to us with its conspiracy theory. You came to us with an open heart. You said, you said, if you fellas have something you want to discuss, I

Ever, that's crazy.

Wow, okay, already starting with the look, I'm going to say this on the and you haven't said it yet.

This was a theory.

That I I definitely was riding with for a minute. Thank you, thank you for a minute, and then then I really thought about it.

But I mean, I just want to note that we're five minutes in, like Sin has already positioned me in the position of the buffoon. Who oh of the wild card. Wow, this is episode my god.

Okay, so so now now there's a hierarchy being formed.

Have I walked into some unsettled ship that?

Oh? For me? Personally? This goes back to before grade. This is a life long.

I can't I can't wait.

I mean this, I will say this too about the theory you chose it hit me right right here his heart not.

I know, I know that you have skin in the game personally, That's why I chose it for you.

Yeah, yeah, okay, I appreciate that. Let us let us not linger any longer. Let us not leave our audience with baited breath. The conspiracy theory that was presented. It was my mama told.

Me life scan people are good at R and B.

M let's let's unpack it. Fellas David, this is yours, this is your baby. I'd love for you to kick us off. I just have felt throughout and I don't listen.

First of all, I personally do not think that light skinned people are better than dark skinned people at R and B. I think that it's even whoa oh wait, I think there's been a lot of I think there's been a lot of dark skinned erasure in the R and B game in general, just like I think, quite honest, there's been a lot of fat eraser in the R and B game as well as well.

Because we all remember Woody from Drew Hill. What happened Jazz? What happen Jazz? Jazz was the heavier one, last king, last of the thick kings. As far as could sing, Ruben stuttered, But that was not Ruben stuttered. Wasn't making like panty dropping.

He tried, well, he had a small.

Window in a moment. He had a moment he did Yeah, it.

Was I'm sorry for two thousand and four that was not.

I mean, here's what I'll say is that Ruben really he tried a little bit of everything that is the formula of R and B. He apologized, he he made love, and he walked in the rain, and none of it seemed to satisfy the missing piece, which was us looking at Ruben Stutter and being like, yeah, I'll buy that album. Yeah, I'll take what you're giving me, big dog.

Big deal. Yeah. I don't even know if he did. Did he win? I don't know, Yes, Ruben Stutter did. He did win.

Clay Agin got second place and now is running for governor I believe.

I don't know what office he's run for. I know he's been a politician for for some time now.

Okay, yeah, but back back to this, back to back, back back to what really matters, the hard hitting stuff. I've just felt like my whole life there's always been this like light skin predisposition to sexy stuff, and then dark skin we got like I didn't want to play offensive linemen a weight thing. Yeah, but like all the DB's light skins, they remallo. I remember him specifically basically white. And I'll say this.

No one's ever asked me to play offensive line, and I have to assume that's because of the color of my skin.

It's across their mind, like did you play power forward? Ever? No, of course not. No.

It wasn't because I was smaller than everybody else and had to play point guard.

I don't think so. I think it's probably because I'm light skin. That makes more sense. Has anybody ever come up to you and been like, you seem like you could sing? They have it.

But but also I had my voice the whole time. Kevin, please jump in here.

I have had that.

I've had a weird thing where a couple of times white women have been like, I want to hear you sing. I bet you could sing, And I'm like, who, I know. I didn't say I could sing, right, I don't.

I didn't. I didn't really put that out there.

I mean, not not back when this was happening a lot.

But yeah, that's definitely you know.

And I'll say this, I did play linebacker when I played football in junior high.

What's a multipurpose position? Though, that's an anybody can be a linebacker.

Okay, all right, fair enough?

And also I was the yeah, I was the only black kid in the in the school at the time, aside from my brother. So I mean they went with the darkest one for so I guess I'm.

Proving your point.

I'm saying I tried out for a wide receiver and I did not get that.

No, they were like, we need a bet a tough guy position. You. Also, I know this about you. You were in an R and B group. I was, Oh my gosh, hold on, wait a minute. That's how they get you.

That's how they get you. This is, if nothing else, helping David towards this point. So please tell us more about this R and B group you were a part of.

Look, I didn't say we were good, but that we were we were all right, And I'm gonna say we were called uh, we were called four now with the four with the number four and now and even though there were six of us, that was a gross error. It was an accident, a miss We were mistitled miss labeled before a show, and that just was the name we stuck with. Yeah, we were, but they were like I think there were out of the gate, three dark skin cats and three light skin okay in the group.

So when split down, sit down, center.

Yeah. But now here's my question. When you were performing, I assume your group dances and things of that nature, where were the lights standing in position in comparison to the darks.

I mean it depended. You know, it's a group, you mix it up and stuff. I can tell you this.

The first performance we did, we covered can You Stand the Rain. I was in the middle.

Not a light skinned man made that song, by the way.

He was in the middle. By the way I was in the middle.

Uh.

The two dark skin men wrote that song.

That's what I'm saying. That's that's a lot of That's a song that's almost exclusively been performed by dark skinned people.

But go ahead, finish. Written written as doesn't count who sang for who wrote freaking you? Nobody knows.

I'll say this on that song. The leads and this is this is why I'm going against your theory. Now, the leads were all the dark skin dudes, and well and and the In new addition, it's it's Treasvent, Ricky bell and and Johnny gill uh in our group. Yeah, it was all three of the dark skin dudesang the leads on the park.

Okay, and the.

Rest of us sang back up.

I told everybody, hey, y'all, let's go get wet. And that was I did. I did that in the middle of the song. Uh, and that was and that was it. And then did a little bit some choreography and sang the backup.

Wait, so you stood in the middle and sang backup? How that's this is confusing?

Well, because remember there are six of us, so it's all all the whole regular game plan just goes out the window. So I can't remember exactly where everyone else was lined up, but I think there was a dark skinned dude on my on my left, you were flanked by dark I think I was flanked by dark.

Skin, almost like some type of a security detail.

Yeah.

Yeah, but they were trying to protect me at all, protect the light skin.

We gotta keep the money safe, right.

But then we like it became this very interchangeable thing where we broke up and we came together and there were only three of us for a minute, and then there were four of us and and you know, so the ratio of light skin to dark skin it kept changing.

Okay, what would you say the ratio was at your most successful? Oh? Whoa spicy question.

He's coming in hot, and I want you to be careful when you answer this, because.

Yeah, that's such a loaded question.

I mean, the gun.

Couldn't be closer to your throat.

What the hell man.

Look asking the real questions here.

Were the hardest interview I've ever had to do. This for for now, twenty some odd years later.

Address the racial disparities from your R and B group of twenty years ago.

I would say, I would say, oh, oh shit, you know, no, still half in half, still half in half, because because they were eventually there, eventually worth four of us, and by then we changed the name, but it was still two dark skinned dudes and two light skin dudes.

And how dark are we talking on l like a scale of Langston to myself.

I mean it was literally the dark skinned guy like Ron, the other light skin cat was about Langston's complexion.

And then my man Corey, So there you go.

You can't do that, you can't do that. I just I just like to hear it.

I like to hear if there's somebody else out there doing the baby's all right.

Someone else making it happen. Light skin, keep selling the brain.

But then and then Corey, yeah, David, he was about It was about your complexion.

Corey and Patrick. Corey, Patrick was a little younger or younger, a little lighter than you.

Okay, people do conflate younger and lighter a lot. Sure.

I mean, you know, dark brother is hurt today. Uh so, so so tell me a little bit more. You you start this R and B group, is that the goal? Are you guys going to be like R and B superstars or was this just like a fun Hey?

It was?

It was We were a dance crew to start, and I'm trying to remember the race again.

That was split down the middle.

There were there were four of us in a dance crew, and then some of us in like sort of the outside crew of that joint. We started singing together. But even in the dance crew, two light skinned, two dark skin cats and so.

And I would argue that that dance crew with black that's Korean eraser. If you ask me, those job.

They just got here, don't do that. Don't do that. Wait, don't do that, don't do that. It's still in good, fine Korean jobs they got they for the dance they just got there wasn't there's a bunch now, but I'm not there wasn't a bunch.

In like eighty eight of Korean Dance Cruise, right, No, No, I would say, I would say, you're looking at I mean, I don't know the history of the Korean dance Yo.

Trap me up, yeah, trap me up on some ship.

No. Every week. I finished this being really worried about the things I've said.

Yeah, not mee.

E.

Langston just goes straight to sleep comfortably.

But but yeah, I mean, yeah, it was we were like this, We were like this little dance crew and then we started hanging out and singing together, and we were like, we should really take this seriously. And so we started performing together a little bit and uh, and then we knew a guy who had some recording equipment and I wrote music.

So I started writing some stuff. We started recording.

There was another guy who kind of would produce some of the other stuff that.

We we sang.

And yeah, we just started doing it and we yeah, our goal was to kind of blow up and do the whole the whole thing, but it just sort of fell apart. We were all from different parts of the country. We met in the South and so yeah, and so it just kind of flew apart. And also it was at a time when that was kind of it looked like that was about to go away, that whole thing New Addition had come and gone, and even Bell BIV Devaux was like hi bye for you know, like in

Would you have likened yourself to like like an O Town no H town.

Town, maybe the worst boy band in all the boy bands? Would you say you were you were just fucking awful?

That was That was my fault.

It was that was It took me. I had to reload.

That was bad. That was bad. That was really bad.

I would say we were and I don't mean to, but we were very New Addition esque when they were the sixth of Us and then because then like when the group was reduced, we had a much more bell bit devoti ish sort of angle. I mean, there were genuine hip hop heads in the group. So I feel like not no shade against bell Bit's vote. But like the hip hop we were doing was we were trying to probably to our detriment, we were probably trying.

To be to y'all.

Were trying to.

Experiment with ship and it sounded it didn't it didn't work.

So you were so you were you were past new Jack Swing. You were like, yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, but we played around with some of that. I mean, we didn't know what we were doing.

Man, I go, I have some of the the demo tapes that we did and I listened to that. I'm just like, who the hell let us? We had no friends.

No one said hey, hey, y'all, come here, come come.

Let me gather all six of you brothers around.

You're making a mistake here.

Fellas you know some of us. Some of it was good, but a lot of it was like what the hell were we.

Can you give? Can you drop a couple of song titles just.

So we Yeah, we had something called and we're a group that took ourselves and everything the moment too seriously.

One time we did was called the Experiment, and it was literally just us.

It was that thing I was talking about, we gotta we're gonna have like a a sort of like a house or a club section, and then we're gonna have like a straight hip hop section, and then we're gonna know it doesn't music doesn't work that. Music doesn't do that. It just doesn't do that.

Uh.

We had another song called It's a black Thing? Okay, because.

We had a song called what was the black Thing? It was literally, it was just what it's a black thing?

It was.

That was the phrase of the moment, y'all, David, if you got to ask, you'll never know, buddy, it's a black thing.

I'm trying to remember my first the first line of my because that was just that was that was a that was hip hop but with like a see this is what I'm talking about.

It had kind of like.

A an up tempo, almost house beat, but we were rapping over it, and then it had a we were singing the hook.

There's a lot of qualifiers here.

There was a whole thing. But I think I'm trying to remember my I think that it was like BO knows this, BO knows that, but BO don't know a damn thing about the lyrics that a brother bring.

I can't remember the rest of the goddamn song.

Because inside out, it's wiggedy wiggedy way, how'd you know you bought?

He bought our album?

You got that demo?

What was I can't, damn, I can't. I wish I could remember the rest of it. It was the really ridiculous.

Let me before we go to break. I have to ask, because you started this this episode off by saying that you did at one point believe in the conspiracy theory that that bory is laying down, And I have to know how that came to be what you believed in.

What has changed since?

Because I did look into it, and you know, and there and I saw a couple of articles about like, hey, why are about colorism and music and and specifically why light skin performers do better? And the list was like Beyonce, Mariah Carey. You know, I was thinking of Chris Brown at one point, you know, he popped with.

Some of the light some of those they blew her up, some of those videos.

And then and then the woman, I'm thinking, I'm forgetting Alicia Keys, but then I I don't. Then I started thinking about all the other artists that I mean, new addition is mostly dark skin, and and the light Skin Brothers are in the background, you know, like I was a I was a Ronnie de Vaux, I was a Michael Bivens, you know what I mean, like kind of hanging out in the.

Back, do the harmon age. I just wanted to play ball, you know.

Yeah.

But like I Neo Akon, I think there are so many more dark skinned kings.

You're spitting now.

Boys to men are a dark skinned group after seven? Yes, yeah, I mean here's what I think. I think what the light skin folks have or what they do, is they find a way to rise above. I mean, there are four people in Destiny's Child, four people in Destiny's Child. Somehow Beyonce just went all the way, you know what.

I mean, cannibalized the whole ship.

Yeah, yeah, uh devote. Look, every new addition fan, male or female will tell you the coolest cat in that group is Ronnie Devout.

I mean, Ralph is.

A close second.

I'm a Ralph man myself, but I'm a Bobby guy.

But I understand why that's talking for everybody.

But okay, but there again, Bobby brown, dark skinned dude left new new addition and then just went far.

Beyond what they were right. They were doing so nasty, you know.

Yeah, And so I think dark skinned folks have been, you know, putting it down in R and B for a while. But now but the light skin folks do find a way to peek through there and and you.

Know, steal sometimes steal the shine.

And what would that talent be? What would you call that skill? Again? Be careful?

And I was like, what about that break? When are we going on to the fellas?

I don't think you have to answer it. I'm happy to throw the break.

I'm thirsty. I'm about to let me take this.

Go ahead and take a SWI we're gonna take a break.

We'll be back with too hard he laughing, too damn hard.

And more, my mama told me. And we are.

Back stop stop, I do are stop.

Yeah, we're back here. We're back with more Kevin Avery more.

My mama told me.

We're still talking about the possibility that light skin people are are inherently naturally God given good at R and b uh. That drop came to us from a listener named Gary. Gary sent us that drop, and it seemed very apt to play today given the conversation.

Mm hmm.

Indeed, something just occurred to me, some just occurred to me. I wonder if there we've seen a turn and that back in the day, the birth of these girls, the motown groups and stuff, if that's when the light skin singers really had their day.

Michael, we're talking a Smokey Robinson.

I think I keep thinking about Smoky.

I don't.

I mean, I don't know those groups. I don't know the lineup of those groups that well, I don't, you know, But with a temptation, who are the lights can catch? And like the temptations, Michael was dark.

You know, he made a choice that don't count.

Yeah, Michael slid into light skinism.

Yeah, that was he learned. He learned it late in life. There were no dark there were no light skin temptations. I don't think.

No, you know, I don't remember a light skin pip.

I don't think there was a light skin pip.

I think it was smoky.

Smokey is the best example I think anybody can come up with. And he he had light eyes. So I feel like that's a that's a whole different type of person, you know what I mean?

Yes, this is I'm not qualified to speak on that lights. Being with light eyes feels like a different game than what I'm playing. Do you know what I mean?

Michael E Lee and Boris Kojo are not putting the same okay, the same energy out in the world.

I think that's reasonable. I think it's Yeah. I think that's how I feel about like very physically fit, dark skinned men and myself. Yeah, exactly. It's like you see jam and Hansu without a shirt on. That's not that's not Those aren't the worlds I'm going for.

No, we didn't have the same opportunities laid in front of U.

No, Tay Diggs was in the theater.

I see Michael Ealy around my neighborhood semi regularly, and I just seem suddenly it's just I feel like he's my nemesis for no at all. The brother's never done anything to me, but I see him and I'm just like.

The eyes they are piercing. Yeah, and let me let me break this down. I think a lot of this work came from this is actually this is this is good for my my personal story. I'm getting this right now. I have a play cousin who is six years older than me, who is light skinned with green eyes, oh and sang on and being danced in all that Okay time, and we would go to the mall and shit and people would ask if he could sing and shit like that.

And I'm so happy I guess they hear you saying this, because it does feel like now we're getting to the root of where some of this this feeling is coming from.

Right that.

While I'm sure there's plenty of evidence, Kevin, as you pointed out, there are some light skinned singers and performers that that populate these sort of charts as they were, there seems to me to be a pretty a pretty substantial, if not heavier leaning ratio towards dark skinned people.

Yeah. Now I'm gonna say, I don't know, I don't trust what you're saying right now, but I feel heavily on the defensive for some reason.

I took the time to look up you know, the list, and I do think your point about Whitney Houston in the right lighting, they probably did a bunch of stuff to make Whitney.

Look darker or rather lighter than she actually was. Oh, they blew up a lot of people. I mean, I think Jojo or Casey from Casey and Jojo Freaking he's blasted with like all those videos. He looks like almost light skin.

Now, I'll say this about Joasy. Davante was light skinned, right, Yeah, he's light skinned.

And he was the king of Jodason.

He was the Yeah, he was the brains behind the operation.

Yeah, but fellas, how'd that work out for him?

I didn't That's that's true.

That's true. Davonte had a run. Don't do that.

Don't do that this moment.

Yeah, let's not see here and down Davante. They put his name in the middle and then they kicked him out. What do you want? What do you want them to like?

I don't think.

Well.

A couple of fun facts about jo Deasy. There's a fifth member.

Oh is he fat?

I don't.

I've never seen him, but he's a guy.

I can't remember his name, but he was on the original the original demos of the songs that they recorded that they took to Andre Herrel when they were all going to go up to New York. He was he was gonna go with him and his girlfriend got pregnant and they were like, well, hang back, bro, we're gonna go up there take care of this business. I don't know if he I think, let's to be fair, I think he was like, I need to stay with my girl.

And that was that whoa, that's heartbreaking. Yeah.

And then and the other thing is that Davante I believe at one point he was dating. I just thought this was the weirdest thing. He was dating the daughter of a you know, hardcore evangelist, one of the popular ones.

I think it was Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. No lady, their daughter, Yo.

That guy that's like forever cements him being a legend of me. That's the most amazing thing I.

Never heard that.

I know. I don't know.

I mean, they're both they were both from like Pentecostal churches, so they were you.

Know, before you celebrate too much I will say that that is technically the formula to making a light skin R and B singer is DeVante mushing into Jim and Tammy fay Baker mushing in Yep, which is another song that I think was on Kevin's demo. Mushing In one.

Of our big That was one of our big that was That was an lipsies after It's a Black Thing Mushigan.

When you're putting the album order together, you gotta go It's a black Thing, mushing in, mushing In.

I'm trying to remember some of the other titles that I can't. There was a song called Stalking. It was not about Nope, not about that. I did want to say it, but it was it was about It was like about It was a very militant pro black song. Oh okay, yeah, it was not about the other thing. There was something called this sing. I wrote a lot of a lot of like romantic love ballads. I was that dude just kind of floating around and the you know,

And I felt kind of in between the you know what I mean, like because like you have boys to.

Men, you were more boys to men. Yes, you were wanted to be.

In addition, I was a sad boy, sad boy rising Yeah. I mean like, this is the thing that fascinates me about the Boys to Men's trajectory is that they came out at the same year as Jodasy. They were before Jodasy, I believe, and they were they'd hit their stride, yeah, and then Jodasy stepped out and just them overalls and nothing else and doing the whole thing, and everyone was like who are they and Boyce to Men were still on bended knee like hey hello, like just to watch.

The audience leave Boys to Men and go to Jodasy. It was a very interesting.

Well, I will say I think boys and Men played it right in that like Joasy took their shirts off and then boys and men were like, we'll put more sweaters on. Yeah, we were double sweater cardigans on top of cardigans. Yeah, we're not gonna play this game with you little tiny buff boys Jodas.

You can't tie a bow tie, you know that's a point. You know, they weren't buff. They were all like skinny ass dudes.

I think I will figure if it came down to it physically, boys to men would give Joe to the word I don't know about that didn't have this stick.

Michael had this stick because he needed it because he was in crippling pain walking around trying to sing. Yeah, he had he had like some physical disease that like made it so that he needed the cane and then tried to didn't.

I didn't know he was sick.

So one of the things I did think to research in relation to this topic, and there isn't a lot that I felt like I could really unpack.

This is this new territory.

Yes, one of the things that I found is that research does show that in terms of anatomical representation representations and textbooks, one point one percent of the diagone rams represented our dark skin tones, while eighty three point five percent represented light skin tones.

Jesus, who are you talent? Who are you talent? I mean, yeah, I seen one guy who looked like me on TV. It was me.

You were the first in your entire life that you saw on TV that looked like you.

I mean it was big. On that episode of Martin Sure it was rock towards the end when he got thicker. Ah, that's about it. Damn.

This is how you're talking about big dudes and dark skinned dudes.

Big dark yeah. Man, you on.

Love on Love had a big parenthood Gary Anthony Williams, Yes, yes, on Well his big key, I think his big thing was his big start was Malcolm in the middle, you know. Yeah, but yeah, you're right, not a lot of No what's his face the data on Family Matters, Carl wins Winslow, Carl Winslow, vel Johnson, I believe was his name.

It's it's something something Johnson. Yes, thank you, Reginald vel john that's it.

There you go. But there's not I think that's where I'm coming from. Also, is that there's just not a lot of representation, so you sweep it all together, you know what I mean?

Right, And to that researcher's note in relation to this textbook theory, not necessarily to what you're speaking to, but I imagine it has.

Once again painting me in the corner.

I think there's some correlation that you could create. The researchers note that such skin color bias has a negative impact on the health outcomes of people with dark skinned tones, who may avoid or delay sexual education opportunities or clinical care if they do not see themselves represented in the recommended resources.

I want it on WAX. I wanted about sex early, okay, but the other things.

Yeah, but that's crazy that if you don't see yourself you don't then learn to see yourself die in sex textbooks. You then will will opt not towards like sexual health and responsibility, at least based on the research. And to the larger concern, if you're not seeing yourself be sexy on TV, you will then not know the language or how to apply the language of sexy in your your other everyday shit.

That's facts. Though I had to go out and get it myself. You do have to like, like like to that end. Like it was like, until I had been sexually active for a bit, I had always viewed my skin as a detriment because that's the only way it had ever been. Like like not just the lack of dark skinned people on television, but then to go to the lack of like like seeing a super dark dude get a girl on on TV is like seeing an Asian dude get a girl on TV. It doesn't happen very well, right, right.

But then do you think that's potentially why and this is a reach, like there are so many dark skinned singers who at some point, let's just say, from the Joe to Ce point on, just leaned into the sexualization of themselves and their music because it was something that might not necessarily have been out there for a while. I mean, I can just I can just remember a time when I to listen to to R and B singers and being like, hey, y'all need to calm the hell that we end up doing that. I'm sure you

I'm a dude. You you know, it's like hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm nineteen. Like wait a minute, y'all.

You know, like, yeah, I wonder that's a good question. I mean, there's always been hyper sexualized black singer. So you take it back to right, Teddy Pinographs when we did concerts for women for a while. Right, Oh that's right.

Wait, so that was a rule he made that like you couldn't come to his concert if you want a woman.

Well that was his manager's chef Gordon being like, I believe it was shep Gordon. Somebody can quote me if I'm wrong, but that was his manager being like, that's what we lean into one hundred percent.

Whoa yeah, And I think it was like an invite, like if you're a man, you could come, but.

What this ain't for you? Yeah, what do you think you're gonna do that?

Yeah?

Yeah, Teddy, p ain't talking to you. Yeah.

One brother back their arms folded like all right, all.

Right, okay you want me? Yeah, fair enough.

So so I guess the question that I sort of have bory uh, and I'm directing this one at you, But Kevin, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. Is given given what we know now, are you starting to at least reconsider statistically the difference, what consider the possibility that this is more about treatment inside of it than it is about the actual statistics of light skin people being naturally inclined for R and B.

I mean, my whole life is a journey of learning. I'm open to that, you know what I mean. I'm not gonna sit here. I think that I think that a lot of these things about representation, though, I think it lends people to telling young people which direction to move in because of representation where it's like, if you're more inclined, maybe the visibility is there, but you're still more inclined to think that this is this type of

Absolutely. I mean, look, the whole reason I'm in a singing group is because when I was a kid, my mom saw a new edition on TV and was like, look at these little kids singing, and I was like, oh, so little kids can do this, well, right, I mean, that's exactly how it happened. That's the only reason I was. I got excited about someday doing that. So yeah, I think, but my I just I just wonder, because yeah, I

And that was the whole reason I brought this up. You're not trapped in here with me. I'm trapped here with you.

You want to be the way around.

Me.

I'm the victim, prisoner.

I do think to that larger point, there is a weird association even as a light skin person, now that we are clearly the victim in this story. As a person, it is that weird thing of people being like light skin R and B singing motherfucker, and it's like, dog, it's only like three of us and one of them is I'll be sure, like it's not. We're not hitting great numbers here. Truly, John B was a white man. He scammed y'all, like, yeah, he's not even he's not black.

All for one, that song that that group all for one.

Those were white guys.

They weren't.

Those weren't black.

Dudessian even better, thought they were Asian.

I think I they'll quote me on it, but I think they were Asians.

I at one point thought New Kids on the Block was black because I heard that when I heard their first that please Don't Go Girl and little Joey McIntyre singing that false out, I just assume black.

First of all, there were no white kids.

There were no white guys out there doing that at the time, So I just was like another singing group black kids.

And then I saw him and I was like, what is happening?

Yeah, not at all.

In fact, one of them is at least a brother to a deeply racist man who's now become a lovely I guess actor and household name.

Who knows he.

Yeah, it's weird on the street.

But the point is, I think that some of this is a little bit coming from from our expectations of each other more than it is our actual knowledge of each other.

Right, right.

But to go even beyond that, there is a weird

And I think that's that's one hundred percent fair. And something that we can't we can't skip past, right, is that there is a a priority placed on light skin performers in a lot of different spaces and.

Especially more visual spaces, right, yeah, exactly, especially especially back in the day music was a lot less visual, you know what I mean, you didn't necessarily know what KC looks like, but you didn't know what the new an VIV looked like.

Exactly. There there's a very intentional choosing of who will become our representation, and then it would be unfair to not acknowledge that. But statistically Lutha van Drel's baby, that's the best that ever did it and darker than that thing.

Yep.

Yeah, But you know, I mean I think also there's a component of a threat is more threatening when it's visual and so on, you were gonna see more light skin you know, quote unquote non threatening folks on TV. They you know, I think White America was able to look the other way. We're not worried about what these R and B singers are doing. They're doing that thing and so and especially you know, music being as segregated as it was for a long time, it was like, sure,

Or you know, the or whatever.

And so it almost is like there was a time when the you know, the dude in the sky scraper was like, let's just leave them to their own devices.

Yeah, in a yuckier way. It also then reminds me the transformation it makes, because I think you're absolutely right, there was a period where they were just like the Four Tops, the del Phonics, the Temptations, They'll all be dark. We don't give a shit. That's their their stuff.

And then at some.

Point it became a and r's figuring out a way to sell this thing, package this thing.

And it doesn't feel dissimilar to.

Like the white rapper conversation. Right, yes, there are not more white rappers, but the white rappers that make it get elevated in a way that makes you feel like, yo, what the fuck is happening? That makes it so that they that, whether he's talented or not, there's no reason this individual should be so far ahead of everybody else at his same level caliber whatever.

That's exactly it.

Yeah, I mean it's similarly, you know, and I'm not familiar with these groups. But I you know, I've heard about this, the idea that in the fifties or sixties, there would be the the you know, whoever out there, you know, insert whatever black scene group out there doing their thing, and then they would find a white.

Oh yeah, they'd give it a sort of mirror what they did, yeah, exactly, and so well.

Yeah, yeah, so I mean I think I think, yeah, you know, the business side of music has always figured out a way to go, all right, let's let them do their thing, and we're gonna elevate our people, and you know, and sort of it's what literally happened with singing groups. It's what literally happened with I mean, there was no such thing as a boy band before nineteen ninety just it wasn't a thing. And then new kids in the block showed up, and white people have never

Band, right, because the nobody was calling the Beatles a boy band exactly. But it's the same formula of four handsome guys and handsome for that time period. They're ugos to me and always will be, but handsome for that time period got together and had women swooning over their their popular music. It's not like a foreign concept.

Right, So what I'm if I'm here, if I'm hearing you fellas correctly, I think what we need today is like an R and B group of like four ugly ass light skin dudes. I like this, okay, right, that's what we need to change the narrative. We need four maybe old kind of ust it down, like yeah, because they needed boys to.

Men body, boys to men bodies. I want them to have C section scars under their eyes. I wanted to be real bad.

One's got acne like adult acne, and then the one's got a dope braces.

Yeah, they've they've got to look like all the stages of Little Wayne, uh, spread out across for four men, maybe.

Just you know, uh, just for for shipping giggles. One of them has a bluetooth in their ear at all.

Oh yeah, I love that.

Maybe one of those belts, you remember those belts would wear that light up and they say, with the name plate that says your name across.

I wouldn't this might this might go back to a light skin dust. Now, come on, brother, we all want belts. I did not have a name don't we had one? Okay, okay, okay, I didn't have one. Though I did not have one. I did not have one. I did I didn't either. I thought about what I would program.

Hey, none of us, none of us have done horrible things in our lives. We all we all made the perfect choice.

No, that's not you can't do that to me because I didn't have a name plate belt. I think that's why I think that's not fair. In the middle of in the middle of my.

Civil rights speech, you went, well, I don't agree with that part's.

Choice. I didn't have a digital nameplate belt. You can't fault me for that, man. I got it. I understood the look. You get a long sleep white tee with like a rapper on it, you do a French dug.

French's right, But don't you dare call it a French duck.

Don't you go, hey, fellas, here's a French duck. No, you can't tell people it's a French duck now.

But you know, I know I didn't know what you were talking about, and yet I knew exactly what you meant.

Yeah, man, I googled French talk not seven days ago.

I learned it from Tan french.

On uh unclear.

I somehow just knew it. I don't think that's good.

It's inherent.

Oh boy, it's inherent to know the French dug. It's inherent for light skinned people to do R and B. It's there are certain things that are just God made, you know.

I mean, look, I'm living proof I did it.

We all are living in my ear. Oh, I love it, the whole deal. You did that. Langston had a name plate belt and I played offensive line. There's a lot of us are just we're just we're just living the lives that we were. We're trying to we're trying to get break out of our boxes. You know.

Yeah, this is it does feel like those those Chooser on adventure books where you're always gonna die, you know what I mean, You're never gonna make it to the end and get in the rocket ship. Something bad was gonna happen. Well, Kevin, before we before we wrap this thing up. And I think I think we nailed this episode by that.

I think we got it.

Oh, I think so. I think there should be a textbook and on that they should just transcribe this. Oh yeah, oh he put it in a museum somewhere.

Let me ask you this question, because it sounds like, was your brother a part of the group as well?

Was that Were you guys in this together?

No?

He but no, but he did it weird thing where like he then told me he had joined some group. And I never got to the bottom of it, got to the bottom of it. I just remember he one I came home for like the holidays, and he was like he was in college and he was like, yeah, they called me sexual chocolate And I was.

Like, whoa, Okay, You're like college is crazy, bro, That's what he was like.

He was very excited about that, and I didn't want to hear it, and but there we were stuck in that moment together. So he I think he did it briefly and then it was it was not.

A He definitely took on the R and B character, if not the actual R and B singing that you did yourself.

Yeah.

I think he went through a lot of that stuff, Like he just sort of he's like, I'm gonna try this, and I'm going to try this, and then he went and like immediately after college, got a real job and uh, you know a lot of house and got married and did all the things.

I guess the larger question comedy. But I mean that's because he got to live out his fantasy is sexual chocolate.

Yeah, true, Yeah.

If I, if I wouldn't dumb old Langston Herman and I got to be sexual chocolate, I probably out of landed a little differently as well.

Oh are you kidding me? Bro, I'd be like, I'd be one of the top regional sellers of garn Insurance. I'd be so sexual.

Chocolate would be on your name tag though, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, or that'd be on the.

Plaque that they give you for making your numbers.

It would also be on my digital digital readout there you go.

I guess the big question that I want to ask is any regrets about the R and B group?

Where are you at?

Intern of the full circle? You're a grown man, You've you've moved on, you make great comedy. Now, you do all the things that are opposite of what this is. Is there any part of you that's like this, This shouldn't have been part of the journey.

But yeah, you are on Emmys like I mean, I think about what I wanted then, and I go, well, i'd be done by now, I think.

I mean, you know, I saw a new addition in concert like a month or two ago. They are one of the few groups that's still just out there doing it. But I you know, I if our group had become successful, I think we might have had a moment and then we would have been gone, like a lot of groups, and then I don't know what i'd be doing. Maybe i'd still be doing stand up, maybe i'd you know, But I think I try not to regret the trajectory, even though I overthink it a lot. I think that's

So that's beautiful. That's just beautiful.

That's a nice way for us to wrap this thing up.

And look, if all else fails, I'm still light skin, y'all.

Hey here it is, Tonstam.

That's what I need to do and say, just.

Fine, I think we did it, y'all.

Kevin could you tell the.

People at home where they can find you on what cool shit you have going on?

Uh?

Yeah you can.

I'm one of those people who's on Twitter, but some for some reason doesn't tweet. But I'm at Kevin Avery on Twitter if you want to follow nothing this otherwise, you can find me on Instagram at Kevin Avery Comedy. And The Great North is on Sundays at Fox at eight thirty. I think we're on hiatus now, but all are up so John Hulu, so go there and check out the show. And I'm even on the show from time to time. Look for my buddy Jarvis Dufrain and uh yeah, that's that's it.

All these streets.

Hit the streets.

Follow Kevin and obviously watch The Great North and then David, where can they find you?

What you got going on?

Uh?

You know? Follow me on Instagram and cool guy Jokes eighty seven. I sometimes post, you know things I've been grilling places I go stand up dates July twenty first, they're twenty third. I'm gonna be at the DC improv. I don't know when this comes out, but I assume around then. And other than that, you know, just hug your people, have a good summer.

Hell yeah, have a good summer. Hug your people, go see David perform live. And as always, you can follow me at Leaston Kerrman on all platforms and if you want to send us your drops, your conspiracy theories, your degrading opinions about the work that we're doing, you can send it to my Mama pod at gmail dot com.

We would love to hear from you.

All Right, we did it.

Bye bitch the government, brown babies, my grown chips in your nabies.

All Kuala bears are racist.

The layers money, our ships, many turkey stuff. You can't tell me