My Carpenter is Black (with Chloé Hilliard)

That's me and Jesus. Relationship is different. Ship sent us, racists, money stuff, I can't tell me. Yep, yep, yep, there it is, there is. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another phenomenal episode of My Mama Told Me, the podcast where we dive deep, deep into the pockets of black conspiracy theories and we finally work to prove that the X in Little nas X stands for xylophone. That's right. This

motherfucker is upsetting people left and right. Not only is he putting queer images in front of our our innocent, thirty eight year old black men, but more importantly, he's coming up with silly Billy ass names like xylophone. This guy's a problem. He's a real problem. Boosey's right, everybody else is wrong. It's all clear to me. I'm your host, Linkston Kerman. I'm coming in hot as always, and and you know who's who's not coming in hot? Who always

plays it cool? Never once if by seeing her coming hot and in a good way. She comes in the right temperature every time I see her. She's hilarious, an amazing comedian and author. You know her from her book Fuck Your Diet. Hilarious, hilarious person. And I'm so happy she's here. Give it up for my guests, Miss Chloe Hillier. Yeah, I make my own sound of face. Hell yeah, you know the people in the background ain't good enough. You gotta throw in a little extra right at the right

at the end. How are we? What's up? I am great? Thanks for having me. It's gonna be so much fun. Yeah, it's gonna be a great time. You You came today with a conspiracy theory. I mentioned this to you already, one that I have desperately been wanting to talk about for the longest time. It's it's a conspiracy theory that I feel like I have heard my entire life that people have argued about forever, and today we get to finally talk about it, we get to finally do it.

And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hold us any longer. You said, my mama told me Jesus is black, absolutely one thousand percent, Yes, one thousand you know, come we say. So. The thing is, this doesn't even have anything to do so much so with religion as it has to do with our parents letting us know, preparing us in a very naive way, to let us know that white supremacy is real. But we have to know the truth. M and so it's like, forget what everybody else tells you.

This is the truth. We have our own truth and you can't. And out there you can say you believe it to go along with it, but we know the truth. And so that's how I always took it as well. It's like, you know, white people be lying to us, we know what's up? WHOA So you're saying, you're saying that that at its core, this is really more of an allegory for for sort of the deceptiveness of whiteness is and and their their actions, more than it is like definitively Jesus had an afro and a pick in

it kind of thing. Yeah, And also like you know what what they did to Jesus is where white society does the black people. We can cicifide every day, and so it's like, so that's why. So that's also why black people rock so harward Jesus because we're like, he's us, we are him, Like we're walking in the same footsteps to struggle the objectification, the slander, all of that, Like

we're Jesus. That's why black people love Jesus. Oh. So all of this is just sort of like it's it's like how how your favorite rapper goes off from some ship and you're like, well, I never sold drugs, but I know what you're going through, bro, Like I I connect with the experience and the challenges that you're facing. Yeah, and it also it also prepares you for getting your ass kicked every day in a white side literally because it's like, yo, Jesus went through this, and I rock

with Jesus. So am I betting Jesus? Like yeah, I guess I'm gonna take this beat in every single day because of the color of my skin. But you know, I guys Jesus to lean on. I like this. So so let's let's trace this back a little bit, because I do. I love what you're saying about this being sort of like a motivational thing and allegorical thing, a thing that that drives us to be better versions of ourselves.

I wonder when you first were told that Jesus was black, and who was the person that that introduced this idea to you? Yeah, well, I think for me. So, my my parents come from two very different religious backgrounds, right, And so my dad's family didn't really go to church at all, like my grandmother. I remember my dad's mom smoked cigarettes, you know, drink, go go to Atlantic City. You know, she's gambling, all of that stuff, right, And my mom's mom was like saved sac factor with the

Holy ghost. So like my mom was like the church girl, and my dad was like not like not the street guy, but like the not saved person, you know, like he wasn't like he wasn't like a thug, but he was just like a world a more worldly dude. And so my mom had me in church early, and so I was always everything was all church all the time. I was to go to church every weekend. Uh, sometimes during

the week. My grandmother only play. Like. I grew up in a Christian, Black American household, and so we always talked about the Bible. We always talked about Versus. My grandmother can recite every single verse backwards. You know. I was in church a lot, and I was in a lot of church plays. And so my earliest realization about Jesus being black was when we were in the Christmas

pageant and we had a black baby Jesus. And so that was the first conversation I remember having being like, Okay, now listen, we know the world is this, but our world, our reality is this, and this is what you need to know. This is the truth. Damn. Okay. So, so you have a black baby Jesus, presumably a child is acting as a black baby Jesus. And are there white jesus Is in your church? Like, is the imagery also of a black Jesus? Or do are there white jesus

Is on the wall? They're like, but we got black baby Jesus. Yeah. So it was like, I feel like most black churches that have white Jesus Is, it's like that porcelain Jesus that's like a little pinkish. It's not it's not white white. So we don't we don't even we don't even look at it as white. You get what I'm saying, right, Like we see it as like, oh, he got a little bit of a hand, like it's probably dust on that bitch, you know what I'm saying. But we're like, this is not a white man how

we think about white men in modern times. Right, No, it's like a bear grills Jesus. He's like outdoorsy Jesus. Yes, yes, So it just was a figure. But then I remember seeing like the first time I saw black Jesus, because you also got to realize black Jesus probably sprung out in my lifetime. I'm forty years old, and and that's I think when black people started saying we can actually say it out loud, and we're gonna start showing like imagery.

So I remember the first time we got the church fans and it was a black Jesus on the back of the church fans, and everybody was like, yo, you see, we got a black black Because for a while, black black churches were going along with all the white, white Jesus imagery. But there was like a shift. I remember when I was like, oh, okay, we we take we really claiming this? Yeah, I I similarly, it won't it

not at all. Similarly, I did not grow up in the church, but at some point in my teens I actually like went to my mom and was like, hey, I think we should start going to church. I made sort of like a big decision to be like we got the church family, because all my niggas talking about it, and I want to know what and I and I wish, I wish you. I wish I knew you because I'm like, no, you don't try here. I did it a few years and learned this was a terrible mistake and I owe

everyone apologies. Oh my god. But that said, even when we were attending black churches, I do remember distinctly they're being almost exclusively white. Jesus is on the walls and the pamphlets, all the ship was covered in in the white version of him. But I do also remember, and maybe this was just ignorance of youth, right. I know, there was never a point in me where I was like questioning Jesus in terms of his race. It was more like his moral code, his representation all that stuff.

But it was never like why is Jesus white. It was just like I don't know, that's that's who God is, you know, And I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I truly, Uh, I'm I'm torn every day. But sort of I guess there there is an element of of de racing Jesus, if that's a word, Yes, exactly, that's what I meant. That's what I mean, Like, yes, we don't even see him as white. It's just that's Jesus. Yeah, he doesn't even have a race.

We don't even think about, Like I don't remember ever thinking about Jesus's race until there was a moment where they was like, no, he's black. And I think and I think also honestly, I mean, I don't know. It

could have been before my time, but my childhood. I feel like more of the black Jesus talks started happening as the conservative Christians Evangelicalism started rising, so like right around like Jimmy Baker all lit those people when he was like because you know, white people turned out for Jesus like in a weird way all of a sudden, like it was you know, Catholic, Protestant, and then Boom Christian, Christian,

Evangelical and all of these like mega churches. And then you know, you gotta see black people talking about our relationship with Jesus. Now you've got white people talking about their relationship with Jesus, talking about their struggle, their strife. And now it's like, no, we've we've been struggling to praying it to Jesus. How come he you're Jesus. Now

now you're gonna use our Jesus against us? And I think it was came like, you know, we need a mascot, and it was like black Jesus Jesus like let's let's it's time to raise him up. So I know, but it felt it felt like it was a lot of competing, like we're the best Christians, No, we're the best, you know,

Like it was weird. It's reminding me of that uh a few years ago when when uh Megan Kelly, Meghan Kelly, I don't know how you pronounced this bitch's name, but but when she came out and she was like, uh, Santa Claus is definitively white. And it's one of those things that that like again, I had never felt passionately about Santa Claus's race, but now that you're saying he's white, I'll kill you just to make saying to Clause anything other than white. I would rather Santa Clause as Filipino

then then accept him as a Caucasian man. Because you were speaking to me, is if this fictional character is anything other than what we've imagined him to be. Yeah, I mean that's like, that's like when when it came up with black Annie and he was like and he's not black, and he was like, and he's not real, real,

none of it is real. But it's just it's just so crazy how people, you know, cling to a mascot and I and I know people are like Jesus a mascot, but essentially, you know, you know, essentially, you know, they hold on to this this idea of a thing so

much because it has to be there's right. The only way, the only way truly salvation works is if you truly believe that you were deserving of salvation, right, and if everybody believes that they're deserving a salvation, then you have to try and quantify because it's like, well that means we're all equal. But we can't be all equal. I gotta be better than somebody. And then that people pervert,

they pervert the thing. Well, that's It's one of the things that I've always really respected about the Jehovah's Witnesses. You know, they put a number on that bad boy. They were like, Hut, four thousand of y'all are gonna be coolest, fucking the rest of y'all good luck. We don't know, but we're gonna go. We're gonna go door to door to prove our value and make sure that

we get that spot in heaven. Yeah. But my thing is, I always took it as if y'all know how many the number is, why are you trying to get more people? You should not want to tell nobody. So therefore, stop knocking on my motherfucking door. Go keep your secret, nigga. Damn listen. I said, I respected a part of what they do. A big part of what they do I find obnoxious and difficult to deal with. But boy, them putting the number on it, that's the part I meant to.

It's bold. I mean, you gotta really believe if you're sticking to that number, you got to believe. You have to and and boy do they demonstrate. I mean, Prince literally died for his his faith and it ain't great, but I respect the hell out of it. Yeah. See.

The other thing is like that when it comes to the print stuff, like any religion that is so closely tied to your physical body, it always throws me off a little bit, like when they were like, don't wear you know, don't get tattoos, don't this, And I want to be like, yo, this is a fucking tupple ware set I'm in right now, like my body's going somewhere else, like y'all treating this shell way too seriously, Like seriously, Yeah, I'm gonna burn this when I'm done with it. I'm

literally going to have a person lighted on fire. And you and we have proof because people believe this ship before and they are called Egyptians. And we got all the fucking mummies left here because the bodies just didn't go nowhere, so and they look like ship. They didn't they didn't get better over time. No, No, that's what you do want me to leave behind. No, this is a vessel, baby, let's rock out. I like that. Let me let me ask you you this are would you

consider yourself a religious person. Now you said you grew up in the church, you went through all of it. Are you a person? Are you still a believer? Are you still going to church practicing? Are you like not Serve my Nickel? I'm out. Yeah, No, I'm good. Um, I am good. You know I'm good. But I'm also a good person. So that's so so for me, my

moral compass has already been established. So like at my core, I still have very much Christian values and the way in which I engage with people and treat myself, all that stuff like that is not ship. You know, that has not been deterred at all. But what turned me off from religion was realizing that they were people in the pulpit who were preaching who did not have like the education and the credentials, the resume, the credit score

to even be preaching. And then you have people funneling money. And so when I started to see like the perversion of it, when I started to see like the business. When you know, my grandmother who was like a devout Christian, she's ninety one, and you know she watches those like Christian shows all day, and so it was around the time it was around the time I was like in high school, I started playing basketball. So basketball got me

out of going to church. That's the only thing that got me out of going to church, because because my parents were like, oh, well, you know, if she's if she gets good, then she can get a scholarship that hel's of college. So I was like, yo, basketball, like you you're you're somebody worth believing in. As far as if I got to put my money on a hooper, I'd go. I'd go your route. I know, yeah, I'm six one. I'm six one. I started playing basketball ninth grade,

so I was already late. So I wasn't so if I had played younger, I would have been a much better player. But I was good enough to get the goal, which was a college scholarship. And so that's how I got at the church. So once you get to once you're out of church, and you start like seeing all the things, all the things that you used to have to abide by, all the conversations around certain things based on like, you know, someone else's regrditations from of a text.

You know, like, once you start like being able to like take some steps back and look at the bigger picture, I'm like, yeah, I don't know if this is for me, Like I get it. Don't kill nobody, don't rape nobody, don't feel like I can do that, Like I'll a buye by thes in commandments and like you know, fucking douce it up. But all that other stuff that all that any like that, all of that remix texting like

I can't, I can't. Yeah, I I similarly. The thing and I think I've talked about this before on the podcast, but the thing that that got me out of church, and it's it's a very dumb, small thing, but it felt like a very large thing in my world at the time, was we I used to I used to go like three times a week. Right again, I volunteered for this ship and I would voluntarily take myself there three times a week. I feel like you look like I feel like you low Kia say this, Like here

you say this, I'm like, love torture. You love torture. You've got some kinking you, That's what I hear. I really at the time, you know what it was, I really just fucked with the stories. I was like, man, these stories are kind of cool, and I like that, Like, you know, there's all these like lessons and ship that come out of them. It felt I just like the reading.

But then we would go to these these Bible study classes and the lady who taught like the youth group Bible study classes, and one day showed a video where they were sort of like explaining all the the satanism in in contemporary music. That they were telling you why every artist that you enjoy is secretly worshiping the devil. And then at one point it got to John Lennon's Imagine and they were telling me how that song specifically

was him equating himself to God. But they're playing the song and I'm listening to the lyrics and it didn't feel like that. It felt like a dude basically being like, what if we treated everybody like they might be God and therefore respected them and cared for them and blah blah blah blah blah. And I argued with the lady and was like, no, I think there's actually a different way to interpret this, and she was like, no, that'sen You're going to hell if you believe in it. Blah

blah blah. I was like, I can't be here, and that's like, that's what really got me annoyed because I remember them like telling kids like we going to hell, and I was like, Yo, my god, I just got here. How why are you telling I'm gonna? I just got here? Like I didn't even like circle the Son that many times, like what are you talking about? And they would be like they would just it was just like to me,

I just never understood the fear aspect of it. Right, And so if you say this God is great, this God is all knowing, I'm never tend to alpha and omega and he created us in his image, then why is he making us suffer through so much? Why do I have to like praise praise and worship? And like what do it? Like? That means? Just's like a like it feels like a sycophanic relationship, you know what I'm saying. So like it don't feel love and joy. It feels

like control, manipulation and fear. And you know, I have a very controversial take about, you know, the Black Church, and I feel like when it comes to African Americans and our experience with the Black Church, it was used to manipulate us. And so I don't understand how you know, we are so and that's also why I think Black Jesus came to be right, So that's also how we separate it. So you know, you know, like this is a bad analogy, but I already brought it up, so

I gotta go with it. This is gonna go so bad, I might. So you know how like when they say, like a person experiences trauma, like if a young kid is raped or anything like that, they split their mind off, like they disassociate themselves, right, And so I think that black Jesus is Black Americans way of disassociate themselves from the Jesus that was used by the slavery times to oppress, manipulate, and deteriorate us as individuals. So that's I think is

on other reason why we cling to Black Jesus. Because it's like we've given so much to Jesus and that kind of hasn't been panting out, but we if we give it to Black Jesus and maybe we'll have a shot. And so it's like this is so so knowing all of that, to me, it's just like, yeah, but if if it was all the way real, we wouldn't have to do all of that. We would just be blessed you know, and it's like, why do I have to appease this thing that I can't see, Like were's the love?

And that? Like, were's the loving somebody waiting? But like you didn't pray enough, or you didn't worship enough, or you didn't give enough tides and that, like where's the

unconditional love and that? And so that's one thing. And the other thing I feel like when it comes to Black Americans and in Jesus, is that Christianity as the remnants of slavery time was used to teach us as a coping mechanism that our life on this plane will always be shitty for various reasons, which was really white supremacy, ownership, manipulation, kidnapping, genocide, rape, all of that ship Like that's the reason why our

lives are shitty and on earth. And instead of us being like, well we can just not make it shitty, we'll say, well, we'll suffer because on the other side, a k A, when we fucking die, that's when we're gonna get out pie in the sky. And I rode to redemption and it's like that is to me, I realized that was a part of the conditioning of enslavement on black people in order for us to remain subservient, which is, yes, we're gonna beat you, rape you, kill you,

sell your kids off. But if you keep praying, the next time you wake up, it will be someplace. But and that's that's to me. I'm like, this ship is conditioning, and that's I really fell out. What do communists say? I think it's it's that religion is the opioid of the masses. That like it is, it is truly a to your point, it is a form of manipulation, whether

true or not, it is constantly manipulated for control. So you have all these preachers who are able to read a book that objectively, we should be able to just look at as like you said, allegories, lessons moral a moral code to set for us, and then add their own interpretations to the thing to get people to do a bunch of bullshit or or give more money or

service their intentions in a different kind of way. And that's a dangerous fucking thing, right Like, at the end of the day, we should just be able to look at these things as stories and be like, hell yeah, I rock with this story, or hell yeah, this made me think about things differently. But we shouldn't be sitting here going like I I gotta get punched in the face forever and always at the possibility that maybe there's a cool black dude up in the sky who's like,

you did it, you did it? Play will maybe not though, Like, like, that's why I think I'd like to live my life right down the middle. It's like, I do enough. I'm serious, I do enough shitty ship on the side, and I do a plenty of amazing things. I'm right down the middle. So you know, it's a toss up, like if there's a God or Jesus or I'm partly gay, I'm like, it's on, y'all. I'm damn. Let me let me ask you this before we go to the break, because I

do think this is important, and I wonder. So you're saying you're not a particularly religious person anymore, you do you still believe there's there's a potential god up there? Are you? Like? Na, there's nothing. I'm just gonna know. No. Listen, first of all, I can't now let me tell you, so you tell me who's not trying to get canceled by blah blahhma. Do someone right? Here. Ain't no way I'm saying is no God. No, that's not my mama.

If you're listening, or if somebody I did not say that you're good but there is a God and you still believe in all this stuff? Yes, I I do believe in all I do believe in all this stuff, but not the stuff that makes my life miserable. Does that mean yes? Okay? So this this actually brings me then to to my next question, which is when you close your eyes and you imagine God. Because you're saying you do believe that Jesus is black. When you close your eyes and you imagine God, what kind of black

Jesus are we talking about? Is he a dark skin like Isaac Hayes looking Jesus or is he more drizzy drake looking Jesus where we at with Jesus? Definitely not Jesse Jake. Definitely not Jessy Jake. I would say, you know if you because if you just look at the people of that time, right they no one was lighted in the ritz Cracker, So I think I think he would be. He would be like on the scale of like flavor flave to El de Barge. He's probably like

a Boris Coacho. Okay, all right, I think maybe around that complex just a just a dark light skin, just a dark Does he have the long flowing hair as he's been talking, you know what listen, probably like curly here like you know, um, I mean like like DJ Khaled's son. What tho like that? Oh you know, I

was thinking like a Corbin Blue you remember him from US? Oh? Yeah, no, yeah no. But if you look at people from like Ethiopius Amali, like you know, there's like a part of especially close up to the Mediterranean, they have like you know, a nice curl texture, like full hair. So maybe something like that. Hell yeah, so you you've got an image of Jesus in your head when you close your eyes and pray, it's this this Boris ko Joe with with DJ khaleeds son hair looking dude listening, Yeah, I mean,

I mean I'm not trying to fund Jesus. But I mean nor should you, I think very because because like that description sounds like I'm out here fantasizing about a hot as Jesus. Listen, If if ever there was somebody to be horn me for, it is Jesus. He's not technically supposed to have sex with you back. So if it makes you feel more committed to him, I think that's okay. I don't think Jesus would be mad about it. Yeah, he loved me. He always with me, He doesn't never

leave me. He's got my back. When you really think about it out of context, you're like, this sound a little weird. You want to Jesus, you're weird. All right, We're gonna take a break. We'll be back with more. Chloe here more. My mama told me we are back like teenage girls when you say teenage, how are we talking? Yeah, we're back here with more cloth. Or my mama told me. You should have seen the look on her face, Ladies and gentlemen when she realized the button I decided to press.

Bringing us back into the subject of talking God in his blackness, truly a fun one. All right, Let's dig into some of this research I had over and I don't know how much you you remember, because I do remember as a kid hearing people always referenced scripture that

specifically suggested that Jesus might be a black person. There's like one specific scripture that always gets sort of reference, And it turns out, at least in my research that that scripture has been massively uh reworked in our retelling of the scripture, like it's never as sort of charming

as people have presented it. Do you remember the specific like details of the scripture that people always bring up because it lives in my head, you know, Nigga's love to remix it, and by the time it got to me and it was like, yo, he got an afro. His skin is like copper, smooth like sat and like we we we we did the Marvin Gay smooth operator remix on Jesus when he made him him, made him like ours. Yes, so no one could really point to the scripture, but we just was like, you know, he

black right here. You know when they say skin like this, they were like that's us, and he was like, okay, yeah it was. His skin was like copper and his

hair was like whoa, whoa uh. And it always was sort of at least suggested to me as like Jesus had like walked into the club and everybody turned and he was just glowing handsome, and it is like, god damn, look at this beautiful Jesus with his wool hair and his copper skin and all that and it turns out that the actual only physical reference made, or any suggestion of of Jesus's appearance in the Bible is after he's dead.

That like, they don't ever really describe what he looks like until after he's dead, and it's in revelations, and they in revelations the hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in the furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing water. And his right hand he held seven stars. Coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all of

its brilliance. This is the description that we've sort of like reinterpreted over and over again, and that reference to wool and the bronze has zero to do with his actual complexion and hair. But that two things we turned him into. Bility Williams. That's number one to make some hours and the other part about that it just goes to show And this is when I was like, yeah, I can't really like give all my life to this

um energy. It just goes to show you how eager people are to take pieces of something to make it there is to justify their devotion to it, right. So that's when I was just like, ye'all making this like it just felt like Stockholm syndrome. It just felt like y'all are trying to find the good to make it seem okay that you're doing this with your life, and it's just like just live and and to that point.

This is also something that I found pretty interesting is that the other references that they make to Jesus in the Bible basically talk about the fact that he wasn't a particularly handsome person like they There are like a couple of scriptures that Isaiah fifty three to the first to Jesus as having no beauty, that we should desire him that basically no one wanted to funk Jesus for his face. They only wanted to funk him for his personality.

And then there's an additional scripture some forty five two to three describes him as fairer than the children of men, so basically which you know, could be I guess left up to interpretation that he's more handsome than the children of men, or it could just be lighter than the

children and men it's not particularly clear. But either way, these are the only physical descriptions we have of Jesus, which means that we are all being pretty silly when we go like Jesus looked like me, Jesus looked like this. It's like dog, we truly don't know this motherfucker might look like an alligator and we we have no wist.

And that's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking because that description you just read about the white, the hair as white as wool, and the feat is his feet was looked like they were in the furnace meets his feet were on fire, like he could be a whole mutant, like we our hairpryance to a whole x man. We

don't even know it. I did a joke with Yamanika, were doing the Comedy Seller show and we were talking about aliens, and I was like, yo, Jesus is an alien, and she cussed me and prayed for me and say, don't you call my Jesus, And I said, look at the origin story. He come out of nowhere, His mother was artificially esseminated by angel. He disappears to like thirty something. Yes, he you know, he disappears like he could be he could be an alien. Just I'm just saying, could be

an alien. I think that that's that, honestly, is more logical to me than that makes so much more sense to me. I'm like, oh, now I get while we praise it and they go, we wanted to come back, come back alien, I get that. It also makes more sense than him being like a member of every race on this planet. Do you know what I mean? That like Chinese and if you go to China, they have Chinese Jesus. If you go to the fucking Ethiopia, they

have Ethiopian Jesus. If you go to Antarctica, Jesus is three penguins stacked on top of each other pretending to be a man. It's it's all what we've decided he is. And more logically, this motherfucker might just be an alien who can shape shift and disappear for a bunch of years. Yo, that makes so much sense to me. Listen, That's why

Stargate is one of my favorite movies. People think it was like, oh, it's corny, it was done, and I was like, no, it was like low key dropping, like great hypothetical, Like what if the pyramids were portals to other worlds, Like I love Stargate and so I just think it's so much I think it's so much cooler living a life, realizing that there's other things greater than

yourself and that there's never one definitive way. And I think that life is about choices, and that's what this experience and this journey of our infinite being in this universe is. It's for us to come here, experience it, learn ship, feel ship, see if you can fucking get it right, and if you don't get it right, you come back, and if you get it right, you go to the next fucking stop on his journey. Right. Yeah.

I like that that that this isn't as much of a punitive thing as I think it's sort of is being presented, but just the thing where it's like, yo, be a decent person, and if this guy's as cool as we say is, he's gonna kind of just see that and not punish you because you didn't you know, count beads necklace or whatever. It is, Like, come on, God, why are you gi me toiti if you don't want them, get it sucks? Come on and listen, listen. I couldn't

have said that better myself. I truly the poetry that just came out of your mouth. If I could, if I could make that the title of this episode, I would. I shouted, I'm mad. I broke at the end. I was so close to sticking it out. So one of the things that that sort of is interesting in all of these these depictions that are made of Jesus and being sort of made complicated with the tracing of of

Jesus is also the tracing of colonization. You talked about this earlier colonization and missionary work of meaning, like a country that was at some point overtaken and are ruled by white people is more likely to worship a white Jesus, right that Like, if you if your country was dominated by white people much in the way that America is,

white Jesus becomes the standard. Whereas if you go to countries where white people have not been the dominant force or are no longer the dominant force, Jesus looks like them, and it's it's largely just interpretation, not actual documentation of

a real person. Yeah, one of the things that I found particularly interesting is the sort of like resurgence of this argument of black Jesus, and fascinating enough, the actual the most recent resurgence and the one that sort of like reached the biggest argument came from Invisible Ink black activist Shaun King. Shaun King. Come now, I know you're a big fan of Shaun King's. Don't say anything to

besmirch his name. But in Shaun King tweeted the statues of the white European they claim is Jesus should also come down. There are a form of white supremacy. Tear them down and tear are down, all the murals and stained glass windows of white Jesus and it's European mother and their white friends. Your thoughts, you know what, Let me tell you something. This is the problem with people

like Shaun King, right. It is because they talk so much noise, right, and for all the things that they do wrong, right, they still are in a position to give light to situations and conversations that we really should have. So it is legit a double edged sword. That's that's mistake on Shaun King. So with that being said, I understand his argument, but I also believe that the imagery

at this point is the lease of our problems. And I think that the imagery of a black Jesus is a bit different than the imagery of motherfucker's who literally owned slaves being up in the middle of a town square. Um. I think one of those things has applied had hurt and harm to us in a way that's very tangible, and the other is a figment of a religious whatever you know that is not Jesus is not shooting us in the back seven times when he comes to a

not want one call, so Sean picks some mouse. Nigga, Please, He's gonna be so happy you called him nigga. I know. I'm also mad. I'm mad. I was like, damn, why did I say nigga? I am not. I don't mean it calling him me just um I, Chloe Hillia did not mean nigga in a way that in any shape or form insinuated that Shaun King is indeed a nigga. It is more colloquial as though it is mainstream at this point. With the a at the end, thank you

forgive me that said. I I agree with you. I do think that we've reached this weird point in society where we're spending so much time nitpicking representation and and sort of like the rules and how many we should have that we're starting to work backwards against progress, Like I don't need a black friend in fucking uh Sabrina the teenage witch, Like black people don't funk with witchcraft like that, We wouldn't just kick it with some weird

girl who has magic powers. Don't create representation where representation shouldn't actually exist, leave that as a white space. And so in the case of Jesus, because it is never to your point, never, he the figure has never done anything negative to black people. It's only white people's interpretation of his his position that's done bad things to black people. I ain't really tripping off of his representation. Now. Is it cool to have a black Jesus? Absolutely? I like

having black people wherever I can get them. But at the same time, that ain't some ship I'm willing to fight over. I to you, I'd much rather fight over changing the laws and the systems at hand rather than dealing in like the color of the very nice man who gives everybody fit. Yeah, ain't nobody worried about him? Ain't nobody worried about him? That's that's That's also why I'm like, y'all give this way too much energy. Y'all give this way too much energy. It's too much, and

is it? And you could be living in life and doing other things, learning things, making mistakes like growing. It's too much other stuff you could be doing other than sitting here praying about a rapture. It's like, yeah, well you're bound to die. Whether you die the rapture, you die. But motherfucking choking on olive it, we're all gonna die. Like so what you get burnt up and you don't get to die in your sleep? So are you still dead? Like and nobody talks about how painful it is to die,

you know why because they're dead. That's it might not even hurt like that, like it's not even hurt you. It might legit like you might feel the first thing in your body going the shock and you're just gone, like you're not going out torches different. But even then, like if you get tortured and you die, you might have your body. I feel like your brain will shut down and be like okay, this is too much and then like then you just you know, get torn the limbs.

But like we're all gonna die. I don't know I just cantled my life and fear so one of the things that I learned about and sort of unpacking some of this stuff. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Have you ever heard of the shroud of Turing? No, but you refresh my memory. Okay, the shroud. There's no

reason you should know this. But apparently the shroud of Turin is this piece of linen cloth that was discovered in thirteen fifty four, all the way back in thirteen fifty four, and it's believed or well some people believe and argue that this is the cloth that Jesus was wrapped in when he was placed in his tomb. And that cloth that they found still apparent, yes, carries the

imprint of his face on the cloth. Now, when I looked up the shroud of Turing and you look up this cloth, it's look if if And some people claim that this is a complete false, that like the people back in thirteen fifty four, we're trolling much as we would today. But those who believe it, if you look at the shroud of Turn, there's very little argument that this imprint is that of a white man. It does

not look in any way like a white person. It looks honestly, more like Luis Guzman rather than like Jared Leto, you know what I mean. It's just it looks like a Puerto Rican man at best, imprinted on this fucking shroud, you know what. And stories like that, like that's the

thing that people cling onto. I remember, you know, remember a current affair, And every like once a month there was always a story about Jesus and a potato chip Jesus and toast one of finds a h baby carrot that looks like Jesus and it's just like when And that was mainstream. So that's so that was like how fanatical people were about the imagery and the mysticism of Jesus. That was like every news. That was basic everyday news.

Don't do that anymore. They don't do that anymore. But there was a time in America where like everybody was like Christian for real, and so it was okay to just like talk about this goofy ship in public and not look nuts like baked potato look like Jesus. Like get now, you can't even like what are you talking about? Watch the movie Get Vaccinated, you asshole. We we know what this is this game playing like y'all was talking like this, and y'all wasn't smoking weed like y'all b

y'all was bored. So one of the other things that sort of like uh emerged and made it very clear. And this goes back to our conversation about how playing the Bible describes him. But if the shroud of Turin is in fact true, one of the other things that you can uh sort of like immediately pull from this is just how old and ugly Jesus looked for a thirty three year old. That if this man was meant to be thirty three, he did not age well. He has aged badly, and he was not a good looking man.

And in the slightest now, if Jesus is an alien, what if when he disappeared, because you know, in the Bible, Jesus like dipped out as a kid, and we don't hear about him until he's like grown, right, Like what if like what if Jesus that was not his physical body. What if he like went into the jungle somewhere or whatever the Sahara and got roughed up a couple of times and maybe he was a body hop or maybe

the body that that came back to Jesus. And as you know, the grown men, Jesus was like somebody like a shepherd's body that the alien Jesus jumped into. Now you know how crazy that sounds, Well, it sounds like the men in black scenario were exactly that roach was inside of that man. And that would explain why he looks so puffy and worn. That would definitely explain why he looked in He almost like, uh, a rodent level ugly.

And that's that's the thing for me. It's like, if you if you want me to believe your part, you gotta be open to believe in my part too. And they don't want me to leave my part. I was like, yo, if he could turn one into why he could be an alien? No he can't. Who the fund turns water into wine? Then? And if he wasn't an alien, where's our miracles? Yo? They was having miracles every other Tuesday in the Bible. Where's our miracle? I ain't seen a burning bush? No angel, come talk to me. You know

what I'm saying. Now times I risk my life, No motherfucking omen come and say, my ass, where's our miracle at? Yeah? They can can they can make these miracles more contemporary. They don't have to be the same as what they went through. It could be like a cool dude on the skateboard being like, hey, you know you can't get three wishes later or whatever. I don't know how it works, man, you know what the miracle is finding twenty dollars in

our pocket. But like, it's a miracle. That's our miracle. Sure, And if we wrote it down, we could too be like Luke and Paul and the rest of the game. Yo, do you know how crazy that Bible would sound like three thousand years from now, people being like two to say I woke up to seven hundred new followers. It was it was a miracles. Jesus did that. Oh, this

is fun. So there is a book that came out in eighteen by this lady named Joan Taylor and archaeologists, and the book is named What did Jesus look Like?

And this is exciting because she she basically studied all these archaeological remains of Jews from thousands of years ago, historical texts, and ancient Egyptian funerary art to conclude that most people in Judea and Egypt around that time, had brown eyes, dark brown to black hair, and olive skin, and in all likelihood, based on all of this sort of collection of data and information, Jesus was about five ft five, the average man's height at the time, and

as as we've already discovered, very very plain looking mm hmmm. So they pretty much did the work to figure out that he probably looked a lot more like a Middle Eastern dude of today more than a random black dude or white person for that. But that's but that's going to show you how powerful white supremacy is, right because they're saying, fuck science, fuck genetics, fuck archaeology, fuck everybody that lives in this area. That we're gonna say a

white Alabasta snow ass nigga lived during this time. He didn't even get he's so he's so holy. He didn't even get sun tanned. That sounds crazy to me. And we're like, yep, yep, he's white as snow. Yep he is.

He's white as snow, and it's just like it's you know, I believe, I do truly believe that there was a time in mankind civilization where religion was pure right where you and those are those I feel like, are the more indigenous face right, they're more closely connected to the mother earth in the world and animals, you know, like

they give a funk about everything. And then somewhere along the line, religion became a tool of manipulation and power and control, and I think it's been perverted for so long that there's no parts of it right now in this version that we're being sold that feels true to me. It doesn't feel like it protects me. It doesn't feel

like it gives a funk about me. If it sounds like it wants me to suffer for a greater thing, and the greater thing is something that I can't even fathom in my life and my mind, and so it just feels like a lot of like gaslighting essentially. I know, I hate that term because it's so overused, but it feels like you gotta suffer, especially being a black person, you gotta suffer even more. And it's just like I remember being young being like what do black people do?

Why are we so fucking cursed? Like why do we have the world? Like if we're praying to God, like how you know how much black people pray? And we ain't been saved. Yet I ain't get no forty eight because I ain't get no mule. You know what I'm saying. I said, I pay taxes. I mean I'm black. I'm praying every day. My grandmama pray every day. You know

how much we pray. So I feel like, you know, either there's nothing there, or black people are the suffering of black people, or just people in general praying to God is just the fucking battery. Juice go into this nigga's back because something may add an up. I I I love what you're saying, in part because I think that it really just speaks to intention that like we have distracted ourselves from the fact that and this is worth saying. And maybe everybody knows this, maybe some listeners don't.

Jesus absolutely existed. This isn't. The question isn't whether or not a human being by the name I guess Jesus Christ. He probably was the named Christ at the time. He probably was named something else. But the guy that we understand to be Jesus did exist in history. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he is everything that we've made him into being. And so that all comes with intention. The Bible as we understand, it started as an oral history.

People just said stuff out loud. They would tell each other's stories over and over again, and then at some point one asshole was like, I should write that down. And then that person who wrote it down decided to write down the parts that he liked he or she liked, and then skip over the parts that they didn't care

for as much. And then as it got recurated and repassed down and sort of like taken over by new powerful people, new versions of that passing changed the interpretations of all of these things, so that this sort of stubby, abless Mexican man turns into fucking you know, Matthew McConaughey two thousand years later, and it's it's over. Yeah, right, We we just aren't being honest about what any of this stuff is, and there's no way for us to be honest. So to your point, we should really just

embrace the lesson and ignore the bullshit. Mm hmm, yeah exactly. But it's hard to do that because that means that you would say that people are autonomous, and you can't show people if they're autonomous, and so that's the manipulation in it all that I can't associate with Yeah, I get that, all right. We I think we did it. I think we fucked We fucked around and uh and fixed black Jesus, or at least made it more messy. I don't know what happened, but we're gonna take a break.

We'll be back with more, Chloe Hillier. The more my mama told me, we are back, give me yeah, we're back here with mortal You're more. And my mama told me that was a clip from Dr Phil where a white boy smacked his mom in the face. And they want me to believe that that boy is a descendant of God. Nope, not in my house. Anyway. We're still talking about whether or not Jesus is black, and it turns out he's probably uh, some sort of brown that has nothing to do with black or white people. But

he's a nice guy historically. We can agree on that. Yeah, okay, I want to play a game. This is a fun game, a classic game on this show, one of our oldest games, our literal oldest game. It's a game called white Line Ugly, You're disgusting, I'm gonna kill you. Give me two white lies. It's a fun game where Chloe I am going to introduce to you a white conspiracy theory, a widely held white conspiracy theory. And what I would love for you to do is just unpack why you think white people

tend to hold onto this conspiracy theory. What do you think is so important to them inside of this thing? What are these sneaky motherfucker's up to? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, all right, So this is a fun one that I had not heard before, but I'm excited that it exists. There have been countless sightings of a lockness like monster and in a lake called Flathead Lake

in Montana. Apparently in Montana there are a number of have to some of their white people because I don't know that black people are allowed in Montana, but a number of white people are claiming that there is a Lockness monster, a thirty to forty ft long creature in Flathead Lake. And what I would love for you to do, Chloe, is tell me why you think white people are so eager to hold onto this, this fake lockness monster. Yeah.

So part of it is, I believe when it comes to these stories of like mythical creatures, it's like one. It started with boredom, right, because there was nothing going on. People gotta understand that people lived for longer like people have lived without social media, television, phones, newspapers, magazines, and books like. People lived way longer like that than have not.

And so when you have nothing going on but except waking up and going to work or going to school and coming home and doing that ship over with no fucking breaks other than like a county fair or mo fucking hog tie or a fucking hatchet throwing whatever corn hole bullshit they was doing out there, you make up ship, right. And so one day somebody probably saw something that looked a little funny style. Maybe it was an animal they've never seen before, because then he because don't we got

the internet. They don't know what every animal look like. And then it becomes this folklore thing, and then it becomes this pride thing that they turned into a mascot for capitalism, because it's like, come here, stay at this hotel, see the thing that we have here, and then it becomes commerce, right, And so I think that is the

problem with mankind in general. It's like something starts off as a genuine, genuine thought or a misconception and then it turns into like this larger than life thing that generates income in profit for somebody, and so I think a lot of times they don't want to let that ship go because it gives them something to brag about. Because what you're gonna brag about in Montana is nothing to do with Montana. So that's how they differentiate themselves

from the other town. We got the lockless monster, we got the monster locked nests like they just be making it up because they and then it becomes business. I love what you're saying about the the business aspect of this, because there is probably an element of this that did come from a a sweet place and maybe sweets the wrong word, but just an honest place where a bunch of idiots who, like you said, we're bored as funk. We're looking at a lake and they're like, damn, what

if there's a monster in there? And they started to tell some people, and other people started to tell some people, and it was a fun little game, and then some sick fuck saw that happening. It was like, hey, if we build a hotel next to this, like while all these people are talking, suddenly we can make this into something profitable that truly shouldn't be profitable, it should just be fund local stupidity. And we always muck things up with our own want for for wealth and investment rather

than just genuine joy. Yeah, have you ever been a Rosbell New Mexico? I have is sad. No, everybody got a fucking green ass alien front of the store. It could be cat cat shopping. Everybody got a fucking alien up just because they know that's what the people there for. Can you imagine like having to put your hard work, your business plan going and getting the loan open up a store front for ice cream shop on my fucking restaurant, and you you gotta put a fucking green alien out front.

So the niggas that want to see aliens be like, oh they like aliens to let's go eat. I shoot myself in the face and you gotta that is fucked up. And even more fucked up is at that point you have to believe the aliens aren't They're seeing this and they're like, well, I'm not going back there. They're making it weird like we were. We were just hanging out, but now you're making it hot, yo, right, Like this

was supposed to be a secret. I told you don't tell nobody, Like it's like when you sleep with that one person, like, yo, we gonna keep this between us, somebody like you know, I'm really private. I want people in my al right. I got you, nick said, you know so I heard you? What spot as You're like yeah, damn? And now her and her friends made made you the wallpaper on their Twitter. It's like, yo, chill bro, like

you got a nickname and ship. They called me alien. Yo, I went to Earth one time and they called me alien. Now disrespected me. You know, I was just I was just kigging it. I met a lady, she was cool, Let's move on. That's it. Damn. I want to appropriate but once or twice and but no, you had to tell every body not even looking from me, right, movie, do don't know my life? They don't know my story. There is something really fascinating too, of like what if

aliens don't even like probing butts like that. Maybe it was just the thing they tried one time, and now everybody keeps trying to make it their thing, and it's like, no, I was just experimenting. Listen. I I feel sorry for the first aliens that came here because they picked the

wrong specimen. They was picking up all the white people in Middle America and them niggas are uninteresting, and now niggas is like where the aliens at and they're like, yo, we tried jobs, Like no, we're different though you ain't trying to special sauce. We have the special sauce. Right. It's like if you go to the zoo and then you stop at the squirrel exhibit, It's like, no, you gotta keep going because yeah, it's back here, silver back, silver back, Well glory, I think we did it. This

is this is a fun episode. Could you tell the people at home where they can find you and what cool ship you have going on? Absolutely? You can find me on Twitter and Instagram. Both are at Chloe Underscore Hilliard because I like white Space Underscore Hilliard and if you want to know more about me, you can go to Chloe Hilliard dot com. I have a book out called Fun Your Diet Um. I'm a television writer, producer, comedian, so you'll probably see some things that I'm working on

in the future. And thank you for having me, Lanks And it's so good to have a fun adult high conspiracy theory conversation. This was one of our least toxic episodes. So I'm glad that uh yeah, you know, we get some real that makes me feel like I was boring. No, no, this was fun and healthy. This was like when you find out that carriage sticks can go and hummus, you know what I mean. It's like, oh, we're doing we're

doing great stuff here. But please follow Chloe, do all the cool things that you're supposed to do to keep up with her, and then you can follow me at Langston Kerman and please send us any conspiracy theories you have and he drops. You want to send all the bullshit, you can send it to my Mama pod at gmail dot com. Otherwise that's it, by bitch, because my crop chips in your mails. A Koala Bears are racist, the old school, old school money turkey stuff. I can't tell me