Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kathleen Bailey, MSL from SynXis. And we talk about what aspects can be taught to an MSL and what aspects need to be learned from experience. So interesting conversations, some good takeaways. Hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and YouTube, and, check us out on MSL talk live on Clubhouse, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 EST. Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Kathleen. How are we doing today? Good. Thank you, Tom. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining me. I'm really excited. Looking forward to having you, and I kinda love this topic. It's a little I know it's a little controversial. I think it's a little click baity. I think a lot of people are gonna be like, what do you mean you can't teach someone how to be an MSR?
What are you talking about? So we'll get into that. Before we do, why don't we do an introduction? If you can just tell everybody who you are and and what you're up to these days. Sure. Thank you. First off, I'm gonna do my disclaimer that my opinions expressed are solely my own and do not express the views or opinions of my employer. So let me tell you a little bit about, where I'm at and, my background.
So I I am a nurse practitioner, and then I got a PhD in 2015, and then I bridged into biopharma in 2,001. So I've been in biopharma for the past 20 years. And 16 years of those, I've been a field facing medical science liaison, based in the West Coast.
And I've, had the opportunity to work in start up, medium and large biopharma companies, and also been exposed to the different stages that MSL can get exposed to, including the prelaunch, the postlaunch, you know, label extensions, and competitive drug launch activity. So I feel very fortunate, kind of had the breadth of the situation as far as an MSL. Yeah. For sure. I know you have a great background.
I know you've been doing this a long time, and I know that you've coached and mentored and trained a lot of MSLs. So this is gonna I think this is a really interesting topic, and I'm looking forward to hearing your insights on what can be taught and maybe what just needs to be learned from experience. So let's just jump right into it, and let's start with that. So what what do you think can be taught to an MSL?
Okay. So let me share a quote that kinda drives this, which is we we can teach from experience, but we cannot teach experience. So I like that. That kind of lays kind of where I'm going with this. So although again, like you said, I I have taught and mentored new MSLs The time that they the time will give them the experience, but whether they can effectively perform the role also takes certain aspects that cannot be taught.
So these but, again, to your point, it's kind of like you said, it's a little controversial. It's like, hey. You know? But these are we'll speak to those as well, but these these 2 can get better over time. But, you know, whether or not they can effectively do the role, there's some components that just, you know, again, you can't teach. So let's go with what you asked me, which is, what are some aspects of the MSO role that I that, you know, I can teach?
So coming into the role, you know, it's the foundation. It's it's it's all the variables so they can do their job. It's, you know, they'll those are learned. Right? So the therapeutic area, what the drug is, all about it. Also, the anatomy and physiology of where that drug's gonna work within the system. And then even the patient, what that's gonna look like, what are those patients like currently, the current treatment options that are going on, those kinds of things.
Again, these are all factual that you you that you that lay the foundation for the MSL. Also, kind of what publications are relevant in in the current, again, therapeutic area and drug. And then, any medical and scientific information. So, again, this is kind of what's gonna happen in a training with an MSL. So they're gonna be provided all these topics and concrete information, the disease state in general, all everything there is to know about the drug.
And then finally, which is most important, is the policies and procedures, because that is kind of the part where even though it the MSL will learn those things and be told those things, to walk that line, it gets a little tricky. You know, you wanna understand, and I'll talk a little more about that and what I mean by that. But that's kind of like your, again, your foundation. So those kind of things are just, again, here you go. And that's the tools. Yeah. And there I mean, look.
We know that it's a complicated role. There's so much that needs to be taken into consideration, and there's so much training that's required. And, you know, we didn't even get into compliance and the pitfalls of of not being trained well in compliance. But just to kinda jump ahead a little bit. So that's a quick overview of what can be taught. How about a quick overview of what you think might not be easily taught? Yeah. The top line is there's kind of 2 parts to it.
1, and I alluded to some of this, but first off, some of the aspects I think that cannot be taught are communication, engaging the HCPs and then building trust. And these are kinda top line things. In addition, the part 2 would be, you know, if you're fortunate enough, this is again an experience thing, but it's also there's learned things within the stages of the MSO, which I spoke to.
So those different stages where you can come in prelaunch of the drug, postlaunch of a drug, you know, and then if there's a competitor that's gonna come on the market. And then there's ongoing activity. So you kinda those aspects, there's there's pieces of that that, again, take exposure, you know, time and exposure, but will they will someone be able to do it well?
You know, again, you gotta have to apply all the aspects of things that can't be taught as well that roll into that to see if they're, you know, gonna be successful. Well and I I think so in a former life before I became a recruiter a 1000000 years ago, I was I worked in the field and I was a sales trainer. I was actually a field trainer for many years.
And the man, I remember the managers coming to me and ask him, like, you know, Tom, you have to you have to take this person, take them under your wing and teach him, like, give him your finesse. And we there was a like, I used to use the expression like, you know, you can't teach height. Kinda like either you have it or you don't. But I I as much as I would say that, I also kinda disagree with it.
I think that if there's anyone out there, if you want it bad enough, you can learn it, and you can experience it, and you can get good at something. The thing is, you really have to put yourself in the right position with the right mentors, having good examples, good training, and you have to put yourself out there. So do you believe that if you have somebody, maybe that might struggle a little bit with some of the softer skills or some of the stuff that doesn't come naturally?
Do you think that with enough counseling and mentoring that anybody can be get themselves up to speed and bring them to a place where they can be a performer if they just had the right teacher and the right coaches and the right guidance? So, yes, in the but I think that's half half of it. So you alluded to the other half. So, yes, I think they can. And I said that when we talk we're talking earlier, like, it can get better over time.
Mhmm. The the things that you can't teach, but it's gonna take the person like you said, they want it bad enough. I've had examples of, an example being, let's say, at MSL. You know, if I'm doing a presentation or pro a program, hey, can I listen in on that?
So they're gonna take an effort, a concerted effort to start to hear how someone else that's experienced is doing the role or, you know, and alongside that shadowing, if you will, or paying attention and seeing how they communicate and how how they might do something well, and then start to embrace that. So you can tell them, you know, go and talk to your KOL. And in other words, you know so the the idea is you get all that training I talked about, and it's like, there's no practice period.
And then and and you kinda mentor, but you're not there a 100% of the time. And so you you can tell them, go speak to the go speak to your KOL. Here's what you're going to engage around. And then, you know, how they're gonna go about it is is, you know, there's certain aspects that, again, you're coming back to somebody, they're gonna be, oh, yeah. Like, objection handling. I'm just throwing 1 out. Like, you know, objection handling is not for everybody.
I mean, they don't know you not necessarily or you have a disgruntled health care provider with the company or something maybe. So things are gonna come at you that are only gonna come at you right at that given time, and you can't teach that. It's gonna be a one off. Right? So that's something that they're gonna be exposed to, and how are they gonna handle that? And how are they gonna know what they're listening to with the HCP? And we'll just get, you know, a little bit like that.
So how are we gonna know what they're if what they're listening to, what's good, what's not good? What should they be bringing back? What's intel? What's not intel? You know, those are kinda like little nuances that, again, maybe you you start to gain that understanding over time. I agree with you that people can get can get better and you know? But I didn't you can't teach that. It's they're gonna have to be exposed. No. There's there's you have to be battle tested.
It's it's and I think that that's a big part of it. But I think that in in my experience and from doing this podcast and talking to so many MSO leaders, there's a recurring theme that I keep hearing, and that is that the best performers are the ones that raise their hand, and they ask for help, and they say, I experienced this, and I had trouble. What would you do, or what's your advice, or how do I overcome that next time? So now they're taking the initiative, and they're saying, okay.
That's never gonna happen to me again because I know how to handle this situation. And then maybe if you take enough initiative, you can ask about a bunch of other scenarios, and then that brings you that much further down the curve. I mean, does that sound like good advice? Yeah. It does it does sound like good advice around the things I I was speaking to where you're right. Battle tested. That's exactly what I was trying to describe. That's a perfect way to describe that.
And but I'll give you a part 2 that when I spoke to, like, what you can't teach, which which is really huge with this role is that ability to build trust with the health care professionals. So some of these too is okay, an example. People, you know, sometimes some people have a problem saying I don't know. Okay? That's the best thing you could ever say. Get you farther than anything else that you might otherwise say to a health care professional.
Don't be afraid to say you're coming in there as the expert, but you don't know everything. So saying I don't know gets you so much farther, and that's something I don't know. I I don't know that necessarily everybody has a easy time doing that. So that might be a hiccup where it might not change. It's just kind of a, you know, where you stand kinda mentally. And then, the other thing is follow through. Do what you say, say what you do. Right? And be be efficient with the HCP.
Those things are really attributed to building that integrity and building that trust with the HCP, so you constantly have that rapport right out of the gate. And so and then listening, a lot of listening, you know, effective listening. The HCP needs to feel like they're heard. So I know we go in there with an agenda, but that's you know, this is a sales situation in pharma, big picture. We also go in with an agenda from a scientific side, and there's things we are prepared to speak about.
But a lot of things go go off the rails, and they have something else to speak. And listening will get you will get you a lot more information, and and they know they're heard as well. So those are kind of the those, to me, those last ones, what do you think about like, I talked about you know, those are things that sometimes from a behavioral or personality perspective, not everybody can do it Right. To do those things. But let's go back to the I don't know comment.
Okay. So Yeah. That but because I think that's hard for some people. I think some people think that I'm coming in here. I'm subject matter expert. I have to know everything. So how do you handle that? You know, you KOL hit you with something that you're that you just don't know the answer to. Do you just say, well, that question is very important to me. I need to go back and get some research so that I can fully answer that. Or you don't just say, I don't know. Like Exactly.
Like, how do you handle that? That's exactly so you're on the right lane. So I just stopped with the I don't know, but, yeah, I I was just being blunt about it. But Yeah. Yes. Yes. You're gonna be very right to you you're you're right on right on top of it. So the way you respond is essentially it's like you don't have it right there at your fingertips, so that's really the I don't know. It's yes. Maybe it's not top of mind, and you don't certainly don't wanna guess.
Not not when it comes to the drug and the information. It's important information. So you say yes. Oh, yeah. I'm I I don't have that information. That's a very good question. I'm gonna go ahead and I'll get back to you. I'll I'll go inside and internally, I'll find out that information, and I'll be of course, I'll I'll email it to you.
What I do and and that's another thing is, on a on a for when I'm gonna leave the conversation, I'm gonna end the engagement with the KOL is I've got actionables, and I reiterate those actionables right to the HCP when I'm about to leave. I'd circle like, hey. I'll be following up with this on this question you had. I'll be blah blah blah, a, b, and c. Okay. They're written right down, and I say them out to the to the HCP right before I leave.
So I think that's another good kind of behavior that just kind of closes. And that's your ceiling. I heard you. I'm gonna do these things, and I'll get back to you. So yeah. And then then hopefully, you do. You know? And you need to be efficient about those things, and you need to like I said, do what you say, say what you do. So those would be, like, that piece of that as well. No. That's great advice. And I think that learning and, again, getting back to, like, mentorship and good leadership.
Learning, what's the right way to handle a situation where you don't know? And what are some of the the best questions you can ask KOLs? What are some of the best engagement strategies that some of your peers have found success? I think that that's really important as a newer MSL or even an experienced MSL that might be in a situation that they haven't been in before. Ask somebody. How did you handle this? If if you were in this situation, what would you say? What questions would you ask?
And I think that that's really important. Because sometimes, I just remember being out in the field, and every once in a while, you get flat footed. You get hit with something like, jeez. I didn't expect that, and I don't know how to handle it. And, obviously, you do the best. You kinda deflect, and then you promise that you'll get back and and, you know, get the right information.
Mhmm. But I just think that it's important to be vocal and and to utilize your internal network of resources to be able to educate you, not just on how to handle that situation. But maybe there's some other stuff that you can learn from that person at the same time. So I know I probably said that. That's probably the 2nd time I said that, so I'm getting a little redundant. But I wanna talk about, the nuances of because it's it's a this is a tricky job. There's prelaunch. There's launch.
There's postlaunch. There's compliance issues and training, and there's COVID now. So there's digital, and there's all this stuff. So let's just throw out the how do you navigate in these difficult waters? And is there a difference in what someone needs to how someone needs to approach small company, maybe prelaunch or even large company, prelaunch versus launch versus, postlaunch. Does that make a difference? Yeah. It is it is now navigating.
And, essentially, too, you know, it's not kinda like, oh, what I like to the MSL role can vary and on the responsibilities in those stages that we're talking about here because, based upon the resources or the size of the company. So, you know, it it it can come at you. There's a lot going on, and you may have a hand in a lot or very little in in the MSL role, again, based on the resources that are going in. But, again, it's exposure plus time.
And if you some MSLs probably have gone through their current, you know, experience that they have so far, and they maybe are just in approved drugs, and that's it. There's usually something going on, but not necessarily. They'd expand. Maybe they're gonna get a label extension. So not everybody's exposed stages, but they are delicate, like you said, because the prelaunch of a drug is really the only the only boots on the ground, if you will, or are the MSLs.
Because there's no commercial team yet, and you can't talk commercially or promote anything because there's no drug approved. So we're essentially again, that drug. So, again, you could be in a prelaunch, be a team already in a company. Right? Or you could just be a startup where it's their first and only drug or the company's already existing, and, and you're a team, and now we're gonna bring we're we're gonna launch another drug onto your plate.
So but it's the same idea no matter what in this in this prelaunch phase, if you will. It doesn't matter. So how you deal with this one drug and how the MSL, will behave. Okay? So, essentially, you're waiting on the drug to get approved. So let's say it's a new therapeutic area. We'll just go after it like that. You know, not you're not in the same you're not swimming in the same pond. So either way, small, big, or large. So you're gonna identify the nuances here. Who are your KOLs?
And so you have to be thinking, how do I get to these people? Nowadays, maybe some lists and things, but you wanna get smart about it because it's a moving target. And so, think about who's already touched the company that's in this therapeutic area because they're ramping up. So let me back up a minute. So, right, the MSLs are coming like, MSLs are coming into play in the prelaunch. There's already been a payer meetings going on, ad boards, litmus ing these experts way back.
They're leaned way back, way before you were introduced. So the again, when I say touch the company, that's why I was thinking like, oh, these, you know, these experts who are, have already been on these ad boards, you've already got a few of those there, who's participated or knows the company. That's what I mean by touch the company. That's, of course, on your list.
And now the other criteria you're gonna be thinking about to get your collective list of KOLs, the publications, if they're on the guidelines committees, things like that. So that's one element. Get get your bucket of KOLs or your health care professionals, You know? Right? Get that get that going. And then what are you doing? What are you doing? Remember, you're the only field facing team because there's no sales group. So but what can you do? So you say it's delicate.
So you can only talk about disease state. You can't go in and talk about the drug either. So you're really increasing awareness around that disease state that that drug is coming on board for and kind of raising awareness and litmusing your healthcare professionals around how they practice with that disease state and now how their current treatment is going in that disease state. So introductions that you don't know them yet either.
So it's kind of a dual thing, introductory appointments, which nowadays, as you know, are Zoom. So virtually you're doing these introductory, appointments. And then also, and then your objectives in that call are also to discuss their current practice around that disease state and kind of getting the lay of the land, if you will, on that because you can't talk about the drug. So then this goes back to, you know, there's a learn as you go kind of thing with MSLs.
And if you're in a prelaunch environment and you're one of the only client facing representatives out there, you need to know the science. You need to you need to really dig into the science because that's what's gonna be paramount for that relationship and for your ability to excel at that point before the drug gets launched. Know everything that there is to know. So this is a situation where that can be taught, but I think it's also something that needs to be learned.
Am I am I getting that right? I think you're right. I think the idea that's again, goes back to foundation. So it can be taught. So the so the company you yeah. You you gotta roll up your sleeves. You gotta know the disease state, the therapeutic area. And then what is learned is what you hear from the health care professional more about the patient profiling, kinda how the current treatment options are going, how real world I like to call real world. Right?
This is called getting real world information when you're talking to health care professionals and kinda that rounds it out for you. But you fall we fall back on, again, time and ex plus exposure. So and experience of different thing aspects that we talked about earlier from a behavioral perspective or things that and this is the early on is kinda when you're gonna come up against a lot of I don't knows.
I would I would essentially say, this is where things are teased out, and this is how you grow because you get you get, asked questions. And now if they again, reactively, if they ask, what do you have? What drug what's going on with that drug, or what do you have, that's gonna come on the market? Or they already know about the compound. Once they bring it up, then you can have this conversation. Right?
You can go down you can reactively discuss the compound, and that's when you're gonna get some I don't know's because they're gonna start start asking. And you're just early on in kinda understanding the drug. So that's you grow you grow from that as well. The I don't know's help you grow as well. And so I think that, people get better at it get better in the role, from a prelaunch.
For sure, there's an arc from a prelaunch all the way to the postlaunch and and and after that, you know, and ongoing. There's no doubt. It happens every time, and I've done it several times. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So we're so just to break it down. So we're talking about we're talking about bridging a gap, essentially. And that gap is from not knowing to you're now an expert MSL. So what, in your opinion, are the best ways for an MSL to be effective and bridge the gap?
Yeah. We we kinda talked about some of these. So this is I I will reinforce these kind of things. So I think that the best ways are learn what you're supposed to learn. Mhmm. Let's not assume everybody's doing that. Okay? That's one piece. Do it to the best get you know what I mean? All those all that foundation, there's a reason you're being you know, roll up your sleeves. How deep you're gonna get in the trenches with the foundation, right, that really go outside. I like, okay.
So an example, I'll carry through with that. An example of getting really becoming better at that, you know, there's the Google alerts. I Google alert the keywords to a therapeutic area. So immediately I get publication alerts, you know, weekly or you can set up daily or weekly that tell you anything with those keywords right hot off the press. Right? So you're staying up on all the latest publications, you know, whether they're your health care professional that's authored or not.
It's in your wheelhouse. You wanna be doing that. That's how you stay up. So it's not just a one and done with the foundation. That's how you get to be better. Right? You keep that going. Pay attention to all that that's going on. And then, like you said, you have to be that we discussed, you have to be wanting to ask the questions to your, other MSLs that are experienced. It doesn't have to be one person.
Usually, you're assigned somebody I've mentored and trained, and then they keep asking the questions. Shadow like we talked about shadow, pay attention to communication when you have an experience and, you know, let's talk it out. Like, you you even brought this up too. Say something, ask something, bring it up to to discuss it through on how how that how tell let the person know how you handled it and then maybe address how better it could be handled.
You know, I've given given I've then watched again. It's important on okay. So I'm gonna flip it around. So the mentor or the trainer, myself, I have an onus as well. Like, if if there's a new MSL and, for instance, they do a presentation, their first one. So now I'm listening. It's gonna be to an outside audience. I'm listening to the other program. Then I go back and I give them, objective feedback. I go I click through, you know, maybe this or that, the new you know?
And, again, I'm nobody's nobody ever knows everything. K? I'm the same way. I've been doing this. I I still look to after a field, you know, my managers with me in the field or my colleagues have been on a call with me and listened to me present. Tell me what you heard. If you have something you think could be done better, let me know. I just add I I had an example with, again, that same idea where I took away from, I I meant, MSL.
I was mentoring some great ideas off their program to put into mine. So it's a two way street. Nobody you know what I mean? There's never an end game here. We're always growing, and I'm always not afraid to say, first of all, I don't know. It's it's huge. And and then, also, I'm not afraid to, you know, learn from others and get that objective feedback no matter how long you've been in the game. So you gotta rely on your team, obviously.
I think that's gonna be really, really important always throughout your career. But what about, what can people be doing, or what advice do you have? I love I love the idea of doing the Google alerts because I think that that's pretty simple, best practice to stay on top of the game in like, just as far as therapeutic knowledge and staying on top of things.
But what other tips do you have and advice do you have for MSLs, things that you're doing now that maybe you didn't do earlier in your career? Maybe there's something on the digital front, you know, following people on Twitter and just, you know, I I don't know. I'm just curious. Is there any anything else you wanna offer that maybe you weren't aware of when you were newer? Yeah. Some of the some of the caveats that are, just to stay I think that the publications are big.
So that Google alerts was definitely not something I did all the way through. But some something else that comes to mind too is some of the caveats are, like, every comp you know, really dig in, pay attention to the to the conferences, even the regional conferences. And now I mean, even before they were virtual, it's really important because the company tends to focus on what's national, the major conferences. Right?
So essentially, you know, there's there's all this regional, there's there's also regional conferences going on in certain in different therapeutic different specialists, different, you know, kind of health care professionals. Drill down, look at those, see who's in there, see who's speaking, you know, because it's regional. So most likely the attendees are people, you know, people in your area, but the really the speakers.
And that again and the the last thing I'm gonna say about staying, you know, growing, and it's a moving target. This business is a moving target. So again, that's one way you stay refreshed by the publications, and who's doing the programs, who's coming up, who's rising up, who's now a speaker, who's giving a topic that's of interest, or even just speaking at all, and that would be somebody of relevant in that therapeutic area for yourself.
So that's how you kinda broad your your scope and just stay stay stay relevant. Pay attention to who's who's coming up because it's your KOL list is always going to be changing and growing. Mhmm. So you're an MSL. You've been doing this for a long time. Obviously, you have metrics and you have goals that you're you're trying to achieve. So what keeps you motivated? You've been doing this a long time. How do you how do you stay motivated? The drug. It's just like, not a drug, but the drug.
The the the drugs that I work with. So I I was it's it's the it's the it's the drug. It's the the patient first, the drug that's helping that patient, and then the people. So meaning internal and external. Like, I just like the idea of the engagement of of I come from a clinical background, so I like the idea that we're helping patients.
So when I say the drug, I tend to I I I'm pulled toward or drawn toward or tend to work with, you know, more different drugs that are, like, at first in class, or it's really saving lives or it's trying to do something impactful that's really changing, kind of, the outcome of a patient, essentially, you know, big picture. So that that that drives me. So because I know it's helping the patient, what the drug is, and then essentially, in the end, I just like having that engagement.
I I didn't get away from that because I enjoy it. I like, you know, with the healthcare professionals, and I, you know, I'm one as well, so I think that's why it's like a peer to peer, and just to have those conversations, and the research and development and the science is really fascinating to me. And that's why I came over to begin with, because I really like the research, the big picture of biopharma and the research.
I think that's listen, I I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer, but that sounds like the right answer for me. I mean, you're MSL. You're supposed to be motivated by science. Right? Yeah. Like, if you said I'm motivated by money, I'm just here to make money. I would be like, oh, no. We have to edit that. Wrong answer, Kathleen. And this wasn't pre prepared. I just threw that question out, so I appreciate your honesty.
And, and I I and I hope that everyone else listening appreciates, what we're trying to do here, which is to, to really come up with good best practices for people that wanna get up to speed fast. I was was listening to another podcast, and they reference and I can't think of the person's name, but it was like they I think there's a common known thought that it takes 10000 hours to be an expert at anything.
But the question is, what are you gonna do to bridge that gap and make it so that it doesn't have to be 10,000? Maybe it has to be 5,000. Doesn't take everybody 10,000. So I guess last question for you. Is there any final advice that you would give somebody to help them come up to speed faster? Things that they could be doing, that go above and beyond what they might be told by their manager or what they're required to do? I think that yes.
I think a self you know, we kind of it it gets a little like the same kind of aspects of things. But essentially, are you are you just gonna so it's it's just sitting there, getting your KOLs or your health care professionals, you know, making your appointments. It it I think it gets done faster. It's the things that are being told to you or at you that you are then doing you are then also taking initiative. Like I said, you gotta meet in the middle.
Mhmm. I think it's gonna speed up if you meet in the middle. And the ways we the way somebody does that, is, again, they take the initiative. So they roll like, again, sometimes there there's there's a third party vendor that just hands you a list of KOLs. You're just gonna go with those KOLs. That's not taking the initiative. That's not speeding up the process. Who's getting the weeds? Where are the special sense supposed to see? You know, how do I go about finding them? Go to the academics.
Go to the right the publications. Go just dig it up. Get exposure with, you know, your health care professionals. Get that going.
Again, taking initiative on your side, not just letting things get presented to you, taught to you, told to you, and then just just staying in that lane, but going outside of that lane with the pub we which which is what we spoke about, proactively looking at publications, proactively looking for who the who the experts are in your region, and those kinds of things, I think, really speed things up.
In addition, I mean, the the communication part, engaging health care professionals, I don't think you can really speed that up. I mean so that's gonna take a minute, and those those situations that I talked about that come to you that come at you, let's say, something you don't know, or they're disgruntled, or you have to handle an objection. I mean, that's gonna take time. That's gonna happen when it happens.
So I just had to say, like, if you can't really expedite the situation with that engaging part Mhmm. I I don't know if you agree with me on I don't see a way to really speed that up. Think that when it comes to KOL engagement, I think that Yeah. It's really important to follow the lead of the KOL. I think, you know, if the person if you hit it off in the first meeting because you have a lot in common or you just wind up having really good conversation and you really nailed it, then that's great.
There's other situations where you might just not even have enough time, or it just might not go as smoothly. And you can't force that. So and to to that respect, I think that, yeah, that's something that can't be sped up.
But I think that just to in a nutshell, I think in order to and the one you know, parting kind of comment based upon what I'm hearing is the best way to bridge the gap is to take initiative and take control and go above and beyond and do do extra and seek out advice and raise your hand and ask questions, and learn for you from your mentors. Obviously, you have teammates for a reason. So I think that this is all good advice.
And I, you know, I I think it's it's obviously there's there's certain things that, you can be taught very easily, and there's certain things that are gonna develop over time with experience in a nutshell, if I had to. Yes. That was perfectly that was good recap. That's the recap. Well, let's leave it there. We we, we're just a little bit over 30 minutes. So, Kathleen, thank you for joining me. This was interesting. Good stuff. I hope everybody really enjoyed it.
So, you know, we'll have to have you come back again sometime. Thank you, Tom. I appreciate it. It was a great conversation. Awesome. Enjoyed it. Alright. Bye, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again. And we look forward to seeing you soon.